Put aside which camp you are on regarding Daniel Jones. This is the way I am thinking about his situation right now:
1) Giants are most likely going to draft in the 12-20 range. I base this on their schedule this year being easier than last and it seems like we have a competent HC.
2) With that draft range, we are out of the picture for any of the elite QB's in the draft. (I do not consider Levis an elite QB in next years draft).
3) Free Agency does not have many QB's to choose from next year. The best, by far, is Lamar. I have a hard time believing the Ravens will let him go without some sort of tag.
Now the Ravens have let star players go in the past (Ed Reed) so this is not out of the ordinary, but none of these star Ravens players have ever been the QB of the team.
4) Why would any FA come to us unless this OL improves? As well, who is he throwing to? We have no one to advertise a QB to.
My most likely scenario is that Jones will sign a 2-3 year contract, but he will have his suitors as well.
The main concern for me is that all the above are true, the Giants try to sign him and he signs elsewhere. At the end of the day, a team might look at him and say that he has not had a good OL, WR or steady coaching in his 4 years here, he can make the throws so why not chance a signing.
I want to ask all of you, if you do not want Jones, how do you look to address the QB position? Is my take wrong?
Without Shepherd, and Toney and Robinson being what they are,, this is the worst WR corps at the pro level I have ever seen.
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I am pretty much in agreement and that Jones becoming expensive is a big part of it.
Learning more about BD it is also clear to me that he would be willing to utilize a dual threat QB. So I think this expands the QB pool to draft from. Obviously they will have to think they can grasp the mental side (processing) in time but I think they will be more open to this type of QB than some other franchises.
Agreed. I could definitely see say a 3rd round pick on a guy like Jordan Travis, see if you can mold him into a Hurts-lite and if not you roll Taylor out and end up in the top 5.
I do think Travis could be an above average NFL starter in Dabolls scheme, and similar to Tua - go get him some stud receivers
I don't know Jordan Travis but your pool of QB's expands if the franchise looks at other ways you can win.
One of the big problem with just focusing on the QB position is it neglects other ways your franchise can have significant success.
"Good enough QB" on a rookie contract with a upper tier/elite defense has more than once showed to be a highly successful strategy. The "good enough" group will need a very good running game/OL to maximize the strategy imv.
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In comment 15837640 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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I am pretty much in agreement and that Jones becoming expensive is a big part of it.
Learning more about BD it is also clear to me that he would be willing to utilize a dual threat QB. So I think this expands the QB pool to draft from. Obviously they will have to think they can grasp the mental side (processing) in time but I think they will be more open to this type of QB than some other franchises.
Agreed. I could definitely see say a 3rd round pick on a guy like Jordan Travis, see if you can mold him into a Hurts-lite and if not you roll Taylor out and end up in the top 5.
I do think Travis could be an above average NFL starter in Dabolls scheme, and similar to Tua - go get him some stud receivers
I don't know Jordan Travis but your pool of QB's expands if the franchise looks at other ways you can win.
One of the big problem with just focusing on the QB position is it neglects other ways your franchise can have significant success.
"Good enough QB" on a rookie contract with a upper tier/elite defense has more than once showed to be a highly successful strategy. The "good enough" group will need a very good running game/OL to maximize the strategy imv.
Problem with good enough guys is the learning curve of jumping to the NFL when you can get a journeyman guy that knows the NFL and the grind while waiting to get the "guy". Those good enough guys very rarely transition to the guy and win SB's. Be patient and use the 3rd round on other needs
Lamar hasn’t had a healthy running back in years, they traded his top WR, and his all pro LT is hurt and he’s having an Aaron Judge type “fuck you pay me” year.
Lamar hasn’t had a healthy running back in years, they traded his top WR, and his all pro LT is hurt and he’s having an Aaron Judge type “fuck you pay me” year.
You are talking about QBs that had a ton of talent and were first round pick from good college programs not sure a 3rd round guy is on the same level.
Lamar hasn’t had a healthy running back in years, they traded his top WR, and his all pro LT is hurt and he’s having an Aaron Judge type “fuck you pay me” year.
Yes, other QB's are getting it done, some with better teams some because they are flat out superior players.
But this is more of the same. Jones isn't Lamar or Hurts and he he isn't gifted at one specific thing nor does he play with a great cast. Everyone knows that. Why do we have thread after thread saying the same things everyone knows?
I don't think we can move forward with Jones beyond 2022 but i'm not closing the book on a franchise tag / smaller extension. I don't see any scenario where he's given some massive new contract here save for a monumental improvement in performance - so what's all the back and forth about?
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There are certainly positions and scenarios where the physical skillset (as opposed to the finesse skillset) is the right tool for the job.
And vice versa. This applies to skill and trench players.
The issue with the Giants offensive line right now isn't the physical skillset. Take a guy like Neal, who is huge and powerful, and when engaged in a block is a nightmare. But his problem is recognition and footwork. He can be physical until his head pops, but that's not going to make him a better pass protector.
Same is true for Feliciano. He has a reputation for being nasty, and feisty, but he's really slow. He's lacking a skillset not classically defined as physical.
Both Glowinksi and Ezeudu have faired better in the run game, but have struggled with play recognition in pass pro. It got Ezeudu benched. He's probably the most physically imposing interior lineman the Giants have, and was a big part of their ground success in week one, and he's not starting.
Which leads to this silly notion the Giants have gotten away from being physical. They spent the number seven over all pick on a monster right tackle, a top 70 pick on a big thick strong guard, their only medium sized UFA contract on a starting guard, and signed a center with a reputation of being a dog at center.
The Giants problem isn't not being physical enough, it's not being good enough.
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We’ve seen Jackson, Herbert, Hurts, Burrow and possibly even Tua now succeed in year 2 if not in year 1.
Lamar hasn’t had a healthy running back in years, they traded his top WR, and his all pro LT is hurt and he’s having an Aaron Judge type “fuck you pay me” year.
Yes, other QB's are getting it done, some with better teams some because they are flat out superior players.
But this is more of the same. Jones isn't Lamar or Hurts and he he isn't gifted at one specific thing nor does he play with a great cast. Everyone knows that. Why do we have thread after thread saying the same things everyone knows?
I don't think we can move forward with Jones beyond 2022 but i'm not closing the book on a franchise tag / smaller extension. I don't see any scenario where he's given some massive new contract here save for a monumental improvement in performance - so what's all the back and forth about?
This was in reference to the comment of the learning curve of “good enough” guys not Jones specifically
Thank you! That’s the only true answer for this bulletin board right now. I refuse to think in moronic absolutes about the decision of Jones. We need to let this play out and see what Shoen and Daboll decide.
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Appreciate the support. I am not bothered by those three posters but thanks. Still waiting on GD's point about asking me how long I played.
If a place makes bad food, that anyone objectively looking at the food would say was bad are you a hater if you don't want to eat there? Are people like, they were dealing with horrible kitchen equipment in there! The food handling staff is well below average but I bet everyone would love the food if they were gone! No because this is bullshit. You aren't a hater if data supporting your reasoning exists you are just a regular person that isn't super interested in experiencing sub par stuff.
Now hey, anyone is free to eat bad food and call it good. But when you start insisting that other people say the food is better than it has proven to be because of extenuating circumstances well that's really just an annoyance.
If you look in the other direction, that's where you get a very logical DJFC label. If people are asking you to ignore data because of these constantly extenuating circumstances that is like definitionally being a fan of something or overly optimistic.
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I like Lines of Scrimmage (LOS). I think they are a good contributor to the forum.
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Appreciate the support. I am not bothered by those three posters but thanks. Still waiting on GD's point about asking me how long I played.
You're the one who started accusing those who have proven themselves to be extremely knowledgable of not having played enough football to have any insight (and of course your own football experience is probably at or even slightly below the median on this board where several posters played college ball).
And my response to that is that no gives a fuck about your PAL glory years. It certainly didn't improve your football knowledge, if that's what you're trying to suggest.
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We’ve seen Jackson, Herbert, Hurts, Burrow and possibly even Tua now succeed in year 2 if not in year 1.
Lamar hasn’t had a healthy running back in years, they traded his top WR, and his all pro LT is hurt and he’s having an Aaron Judge type “fuck you pay me” year.
Yes, other QB's are getting it done, some with better teams some because they are flat out superior players.
But this is more of the same. Jones isn't Lamar or Hurts and he he isn't gifted at one specific thing nor does he play with a great cast. Everyone knows that. Why do we have thread after thread saying the same things everyone knows?
I don't think we can move forward with Jones beyond 2022 but i'm not closing the book on a franchise tag / smaller extension. I don't see any scenario where he's given some massive new contract here save for a monumental improvement in performance - so what's all the back and forth about?
Because we still have people coming on here and arguing that there is still absolutely no way to evaluate Jones, and the Giants should probably just re-sign him for 2-3 years because once there are better players, he may be a really good QB.
It is really hard to ignore those comments and focus on only on rational posts.
I would say the BUCS.
Tampa will need a QB after this year. He may not win them a Superbowl but he would get them into the playoffs.
I actually hope Jones to a good team. No sense staying here and getting the crap beat out of him.
Drafting Jones was like putting a roof on a house with no walls or foundation and then complaining it's drafty, wet and muddy.
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In comment 15837755 ChrisRick said:
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I like Lines of Scrimmage (LOS). I think they are a good contributor to the forum.
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Appreciate the support. I am not bothered by those three posters but thanks. Still waiting on GD's point about asking me how long I played.
You're the one who started accusing those who have proven themselves to be extremely knowledgable of not having played enough football to have any insight (and of course your own football experience is probably at or even slightly below the median on this board where several posters played college ball).
And my response to that is that no gives a fuck about your PAL glory years. It certainly didn't improve your football knowledge, if that's what you're trying to suggest.
Yes it is usually very clear to me posters who had little involvement at the QB position. This does not mean they can't present opinions on the position. It means some are usually wrong and why I call them the QB guru group (your a part of it) and plenty arrogant on top of it. Plenty of other posters offer great takes. They see the position and team football well. You just post DJFC. I never said anything about PAL glory years but okay. I'm sure you are one of those posters with a distinguished athletic career (Not). I'm comfortable with mine.
Do you believe Neal, Glowisnki, and Feliciano are getting beat because of their physical traits or because of traits like play recognition and speed?
The Texans traded up for Watson.
The Bills traded up for Allen.
The Niners traded to for Lance.
The Bears traded up for Fields.
Which teams who are in the market for a QB just sit on their hands and wait? I’d urge a lot here to get comfortable with the fact that the 2024 first round pick could likely be moved to trade up for QB.
And it looks like the Niners and the Bears made mistakes with those picks. It is still early. Fields still has a chance to become a solid QB if the Bears could ever surround him with a decent support cast. But Lance looks like a huge mistake. Of course, Mahomes, Allen, and Watson have proven their worth. I have heard that Macadoo wanted to trade up for Mahomes but the GM nixed it. And I read somewhere that DG would have picked Allen if he had chosen a QB instead of Barkley.
I would say the BUCS.
Tampa will need a QB after this year. He may not win them a Superbowl but he would get them into the playoffs.
I actually hope Jones to a good team. No sense staying here and getting the crap beat out of him.
Drafting Jones was like putting a roof on a house with no walls or foundation and then complaining it's drafty, wet and muddy.
You should just go ahead and become a fan of whatever team signs Jones this offseason. Feels like a win/win for everyone.
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In comment 15837786 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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In comment 15837755 ChrisRick said:
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I like Lines of Scrimmage (LOS). I think they are a good contributor to the forum.
👍
Appreciate the support. I am not bothered by those three posters but thanks. Still waiting on GD's point about asking me how long I played.
You're the one who started accusing those who have proven themselves to be extremely knowledgable of not having played enough football to have any insight (and of course your own football experience is probably at or even slightly below the median on this board where several posters played college ball).
And my response to that is that no gives a fuck about your PAL glory years. It certainly didn't improve your football knowledge, if that's what you're trying to suggest.
Yes it is usually very clear to me posters who had little involvement at the QB position. This does not mean they can't present opinions on the position. It means some are usually wrong and why I call them the QB guru group (your a part of it) and plenty arrogant on top of it. Plenty of other posters offer great takes. They see the position and team football well. You just post DJFC. I never said anything about PAL glory years but okay. I'm sure you are one of those posters with a distinguished athletic career (Not). I'm comfortable with mine.
It's still "you're" not "your" but go ahead and let us know who you think is intelligent enough to proffer insights.
I would say the BUCS.
Tampa will need a QB after this year. He may not win them a Superbowl but he would get them into the playoffs.
I actually hope Jones to a good team. No sense staying here and getting the crap beat out of him.
Drafting Jones was like putting a roof on a house with no walls or foundation and then complaining it's drafty, wet and muddy.
You do realize Jones does not have a single season of great production. What makes you think the Bucs will share your opinion of Jones, when he has never done it. At this juncture Jameis Winston is a far better bet than Jones.
I would say the BUCS.
Tampa will need a QB after this year. He may not win them a Superbowl but he would get them into the playoffs.
I actually hope Jones to a good team. No sense staying here and getting the crap beat out of him.
Drafting Jones was like putting a roof on a house with no walls or foundation and then complaining it's drafty, wet and muddy.
The Bucs aren’t going after Jones to be their starting quarterback. Stop this nonsense
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Don't try to outthink the game. Everyone knows talent is a big part of the equation. So is being able to physically beat your man across from you. In a game that is set up to compete physically it is important. Physical people get beat by more physical people. Its not coach speak. Its understanding football.
Do you believe Neal, Glowisnki, and Feliciano are getting beat because of their physical traits or because of traits like play recognition and speed?
I think for Glowinski and Feliciano it is more being who they are. Neal is in a total different position and for him I think speed and recognition is a much bigger part of it.
I had concerns with this offensive staff to start. Buffalo did little to show me they have the OL thing figured out. Hoping long term the same trend does not apply here. If you are really interested look at Buffalo's difference in offense before and after Diggs. Both Allen and Diggs hide a lot of warts that got exposed against the Chiefs.
They got the ball 9 times and scored 5 TDs
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In comment 15837786 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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In comment 15837755 ChrisRick said:
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I like Lines of Scrimmage (LOS). I think they are a good contributor to the forum.
👍
Appreciate the support. I am not bothered by those three posters but thanks. Still waiting on GD's point about asking me how long I played.
You're the one who started accusing those who have proven themselves to be extremely knowledgable of not having played enough football to have any insight (and of course your own football experience is probably at or even slightly below the median on this board where several posters played college ball).
And my response to that is that no gives a fuck about your PAL glory years. It certainly didn't improve your football knowledge, if that's what you're trying to suggest.
Yes it is usually very clear to me posters who had little involvement at the QB position. This does not mean they can't present opinions on the position. It means some are usually wrong and why I call them the QB guru group (your a part of it) and plenty arrogant on top of it. Plenty of other posters offer great takes. They see the position and team football well. You just post DJFC. I never said anything about PAL glory years but okay. I'm sure you are one of those posters with a distinguished athletic career (Not). I'm comfortable with mine.
Haha...we're the arrogant ones, huh?
They got the ball 9 times and scored 5 TDs
Lot of the damage was done when Mathieu got hurt. Chiefs were close to putting that game away until that 4th down call by Reid. They also lost a corner and had Baker in for the 4th QTR.
If you look closely at Buffalo you will see they could not run the ball between the tackles all year.
Just pointing out a observation that plenty of the analysts have pointed about as well. Bills were soft on both interiors. They actually addressed it on the D side but thus far on O they have the same issue this year.
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In comment 15837777 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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Don't try to outthink the game. Everyone knows talent is a big part of the equation. So is being able to physically beat your man across from you. In a game that is set up to compete physically it is important. Physical people get beat by more physical people. Its not coach speak. Its understanding football.
Do you believe Neal, Glowisnki, and Feliciano are getting beat because of their physical traits or because of traits like play recognition and speed?
I think for Glowinski and Feliciano it is more being who they are. Neal is in a total different position and for him I think speed and recognition is a much bigger part of it.
OK so for Neal it's not his physicality, but speed and recognition.
What is it about who they are with Feliciano and Glowinski that's made them ineffective this year?
I don't see why you are so amped up at me since I am subscribing to what you constantly preach.
Every game I watch, I shake my head at the teams/coaches that don't run the ball at least 30 times and those that don't do it as much as possible in first half regardless of the results. And it's because you said it is a sure-fire path to- football success. Just like Vanderbilt had less carries than Alabama the other day...sure enough Vandy lost.
This is genius-type stuff...
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In comment 15837833 christian said:
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In comment 15837777 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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Don't try to outthink the game. Everyone knows talent is a big part of the equation. So is being able to physically beat your man across from you. In a game that is set up to compete physically it is important. Physical people get beat by more physical people. Its not coach speak. Its understanding football.
Do you believe Neal, Glowisnki, and Feliciano are getting beat because of their physical traits or because of traits like play recognition and speed?
I think for Glowinski and Feliciano it is more being who they are. Neal is in a total different position and for him I think speed and recognition is a much bigger part of it.
OK so for Neal it's not his physicality, but speed and recognition.
What is it about who they are with Feliciano and Glowinski that's made them ineffective this year?
Maybe they're trying to outthink the game too?
I have said that being able to run consistently puts teams in more manageable down/distance and makes PA more successful. It helps your WR's get open and simplifies reads for your QB. End of story.
30 rushes is a barometer that a lot of coaches have used for decades. It means you have balance and applies to what I said above. Yet for some reason you take this 30 number and like taking shots. Reality is when you hit that number and it is from consistent runs your team has a significantly higher probability of winning. If you take the time to research that instead of your approach you take then maybe you will the value in it but that does not seem your style. That would mean god forbid you may be wrong.
There absolutely is truth to that statement.
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How the great passing teams run more because they are winning at the end. This was nothing what I was saying nor is there truth to your statement.
There absolutely is truth to that statement.
Back this one up please. I'd like to see it and understand the circumstances around it.
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In comment 15837906 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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How the great passing teams run more because they are winning at the end. This was nothing what I was saying nor is there truth to your statement.
There absolutely is truth to that statement.
Back this one up please. I'd like to see it and understand the circumstances around it.
You'd like to see proof that teams run the ball more frequently when they already have the lead than when they're trailing? Or would you prefer to see proof that they run the ball more when they're protecting a lead than when they're building their lead?
Which evidence will best satisfy your burden of proof?
Glowinski in 29 and is struggling. Feliciano is 30 and came from a OL who couldn't run on the interior and that is coached and managed by those same people.
The technical details are best for Sy but you can read his reviews. I am more comfortable with the QB position.
I have said that being able to run consistently puts teams in more manageable down/distance and makes PA more successful. It helps your WR's get open and simplifies reads for your QB. End of story.
30 rushes is a barometer that a lot of coaches have used for decades. It means you have balance and applies to what I said above. Yet for some reason you take this 30 number and like taking shots. Reality is when you hit that number and it is from consistent runs your team has a significantly higher probability of winning. If you take the time to research that instead of your approach you take then maybe you will the value in it but that does not seem your style. That would mean god forbid you may be wrong.
I wasn't trying to teach you anything. I only remarked that I subscribe far more to the importance of the passing game in achieving success at the NFL level in recent years. And that running is not to be overlooked because of the need for balance (not 50/50 balance) but yardage, scoring and ultimately wins come from the passing game these days.
You got on your pedestal and started preaching 30 carries come hell or high water, and I don't agree. I have no issue in teams getting to 30 carries, or even more, but as contributing factor to hopefully a far more effective offensive attack that allows them to reach that output without just forcing it. But you didn't like the way that ws said either.
But keep this up, we haven't had comic relief like you are displaying here since fmic went into hiding. The site needs more of this...
I would say the BUCS.
Tampa will need a QB after this year. He may not win them a Superbowl but he would get them into the playoffs.
I actually hope Jones to a good team. No sense staying here and getting the crap beat out of him.
Drafting Jones was like putting a roof on a house with no walls or foundation and then complaining it's drafty, wet and muddy.
I've said that a few times on different threads.
Brady is all but gone.
The FA market will be meh.
The College QB class looks to be less than anticipated.
Jones to TB for say 3 @ $15M per makes a lot of sense.
Jones with some talent around him would not be too shabby.
And the Jones haters can kiss my ass too.
You know where I saw this play out about ten years ago? When Nicks got hurt. Shit oline and now no more elite perimeter threat and the team goes to crap. Go figure. But hey, you understand football right so you understand that?
You know where I saw this play out about ten years ago? When Nicks got hurt. Shit oline and now no more elite perimeter threat and the team goes to crap. Go figure. But hey, you understand football right so you understand that?
Haha...you even post like fmic now with your slight pivots and condescending tones. Well done.
I am not denying mentioning the Nick Saban video for you to watch so he could inform you what he has been doing with the passing game to drive Bama's success. Here's the thread so you can re-read what I mentioned above exactly. Btw - count how many times you drive home the 30 carries concept too for kicks...
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=624965
Jimmy Googs : 9/1/2022 10:48 am : link
At least your getting closer to an actual point....running the ball and doing it effectively is a guideline. But not some magical 30 carries.
Effective runs, even if only 15+ or so carries could do the job. It creates space in the Defense, some semblance of balance in play calls even if not 50/50, and of course the most important dynamic...the opportunity for play action.
However the goal is to score. And scoring comes out of impact plays and the passing game. Teams pass more and more now and they do it because they know without the impact plays passing provides, they are leaving themselves exposed to not having enough points on the board to win or leaning on their Defense too heavily. If everyone had an all-time Defense then you can risk it, but obviously most don’t. Every new rule inserted in the game over the past decade or so has favored putting more and more emphasis on passing versus rushing to be successful. Not a guarantee but clearly favoring it.
It’s in some of the next few chapters on winning football, once you finish your Football 101 book from 1979...
Glad no one altered the archives on this one so I could re-post it :-)
The technical details are best for Sy but you can read his reviews.
What I'm getting at is you debate the game in repeated and exhausting generalities and catch phrases, you admittedly don't understand the technical details of the game well, and your arrogance about it is silly and misplaced.
You can't quantify why or why not players meet these esoteric thresholds you've heard coaches allude to in press conferences.
You'd be better off just saying the Giants offensive line hasn't been good for a decade and not try and tie it to a root cause you struggle to even define.
Posters on this site swing and miss and over reach their knowledge from time-to-time. Myself certainly included. But you double-down and bill us for the pleasure.
I'd say when push comes to shove the Emperor Has No Clothes, but that'd be an insult to emperors.
I think you put a big target on yourself, make broad claims, talk down to posters, use language like you're teaching people, and then get your feelings hurt when your spurious view points get shot at.
I think you'd be far more comfortable getting in on the joke with the rest of, that we're all just fans trying to better understand the team and the game. Rather than the joke being on you, that you've got it all figured out. When virtually all of us can see pretty clearly you don't.