Is winning games this year detrimental to our future?

To quote Herm Edwards…

You Play to WIN THE GAME

is pretty important IMO.

.

In comment 15838200 US1 Giants said:

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is pretty important IMO.

Agree, but are we anticipating a majority of this roster to return?

Coaches play to win, as does the team. Que sera, sera

“Let’s lose for a better draft choice.” GTFO. Now!

In comment 15838215 Bill in UT said:

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Coaches play to win, as does the team. Que sera, sera

I agree, but there has to be some level of unexpected consequence to winning games with the roster we have?

Like the patriots, eagles, ravens have been good for a long time. It doesn’t take top 5 picks to get good. It takes building a good organization.

In comment 15838223 RELICDOA said:

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In comment 15838215 Bill in UT said: Quote: Coaches play to win, as does the team. Que sera, sera I agree, but there has to be some level of unexpected consequence to winning games with the roster we have?

Teams have to develop a winning attitude and confidence. So we lose a few spots in the draft, the players still on the roster will have gained confidence. The draft is a crap shoot anyone, plus winning will likely make us more attractive for free agents

In comment 15838225 armstead98 said:

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Like the patriots, eagles, ravens have been good for a long time. It doesn’t take top 5 picks to get good. It takes building a good organization.

Trust me I’m not for the deliberate tank a thon but There are so many holes at this point the odds of getting studs is typically at the top of the draft. We all know this isn’t a sure fire bet but it increases your chances to get immediate help.

new regime to get the early wins. Takes some heat off them.

Now, yeah, it is detrimental. We're not even really trying to win this year at the organizational level. Obviously the coaches and players are trying hard, as they should.

But if you could pick between 4 wins and 7 wins, 4 is the way to go. This is the year we need to be high in the draft.

And getting great draft capital hasn’t seemed to be working.

Not in the habit of ridiculing any posters’ topic, but have to admit this one is puzzling

EVER

In comment 15838234 RELICDOA said:

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In comment 15838225 armstead98 said: Quote: Like the patriots, eagles, ravens have been good for a long time. It doesn’t take top 5 picks to get good. It takes building a good organization. Trust me I’m not for the deliberate tank a thon but There are so many holes at this point the odds of getting studs is typically at the top of the draft. We all know this isn’t a sure fire bet but it increases your chances to get immediate help.

Flott, Bellinger, Belton, Davidson were all picked in Rounds 3-5 and are starters. Before he got hurt, Beavers was going to end up the starter.

Great rosters aren’t built in the 1st round.

Teams don’t have to draft in the top 10 to get great players. The important issue is not where you draft but how you draft.

it instills a culture plus you may find gems that will dictate the trajectory of the franchise, however...

I still think management needs to think about long term strategy, and if trading a player like Barkley makes sense, sacrificing short term good for better long term success with good draft picks, you do it.

There's no absolute binary. You play to win, but you still need to manage with a long view.

but asking this question when they have a winning record? That's a new one.

In comment 15838254 Producer said:

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it instills a culture plus you may find gems that will dictate the trajectory of the franchise, however... I still think management needs to think about long term strategy, and if trading a player like Barkley makes sense, sacrificing short term good for better long term success with good draft picks, you do it. There's no absolute binary. You play to win, but you still need to manage with a long view.

They aren't trading their best offensuve player when they have a winning record

In comment 15838258 LakeGeorgeGiant said:

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In comment 15838254 Producer said: Quote: it instills a culture plus you may find gems that will dictate the trajectory of the franchise, however... I still think management needs to think about long term strategy, and if trading a player like Barkley makes sense, sacrificing short term good for better long term success with good draft picks, you do it. There's no absolute binary. You play to win, but you still need to manage with a long view. They aren't trading their best offensuve player when they have a winning record

of course... but what if they're 4-6.

Was getting rid of some good players that was necessitated by refusing to push cap into future by Schoen.

In comment 15838258 LakeGeorgeGiant said:

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In comment 15838254 Producer said: Quote: it instills a culture plus you may find gems that will dictate the trajectory of the franchise, however... I still think management needs to think about long term strategy, and if trading a player like Barkley makes sense, sacrificing short term good for better long term success with good draft picks, you do it. There's no absolute binary. You play to win, but you still need to manage with a long view. They aren't trading their best offensuve player when they have a winning record

I agree but I would also think great managers have to weigh the pros vs cons and if you don’t you’re not doing your job effectively. And to be clear I don’t want to trade Barkley and I’m a DJ supporter as well.

and sometimes I myself think that - if we are not going to win the SB - lets lose every game (get those high draft picks) till we have a team that will WIN the SB.

But, like others have said above - learning how to win and developing a winning "culture/attitude" is a very important part of the equation.

I would rather have a team that is mediumly (fairly) talented 2007? 2011? ... who worked hard AND WAS AFRAID TO LOSE ...

(before anybody jumps on my back - we finished 10-6 in 2007 and 9-7 in 2011 (I think the 9-7 team set a record for having the worst record team to win a championship?) - those records hardly demonstrate an extremely talented team)) ....


.... then a team that is extremely talented and didn't give a f*** AND JUST COLLECTED THEIR PAYCHECKS (Golladay?).

We’d be much better off either winning the Super Bowl or picking 1st every year, no in between, but you still don’t stop trying to win every single game you play no matter what.

Is contagious. It needs to be engrained into the fiber of an organization. It has to be the norm, the expectation, not just a goal. That kind of culture is not built by even contemplating anything except winning. And it takes a lot of time to develop. We have no time to waste.

Let's turn it around: At what point is it good to start winning games? If winning is bad this year, how many more years should the Giants tank for better draft picks (which don't always translate into better players, anyway)?

For 10 years. Then see if they'll win it the 11th year.

In comment 15838208 Sy'56 said:

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.

This.

In comment 15838238 joeinpa said:

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And getting great draft capital hasn’t seemed to be working. Not in the habit of ridiculing any posters’ topic, but have to admit this one is puzzling

This too.

already?

All that talk about how awful that win was against WFT in December of 2019 because no Chase Young. Well, Andrew Thomas has been the better pro. So many people lost their marbles about that too.

…and the joy of having playoff hopes past Halloween, there have been some excellent players drafted in the ‘not terrible, but not good’ 10-14 draft range.

21: D Smith, Parsons, Slater, AVT
20/19: Wirfs, Lindstrom…uh Wills/Wilkins (ok, these years weren’t great)
18: Minkah, Vea, Davenport (Payne?)
17: Mahomes, Lattimore, Watson, Reddick, Barnett

Out of 25 picks across 5 years this looks like a really good historical spot to pick with an impressive hit rate.

Additionally, the picks cost ~1/2 of a 1-5 pick, saving $5M/yr + a much cheaper 5th year option

Back in history to see

Trubisky picked before Mahomes
Tua picked over Herbert
Mayfield & Darnold picked over Allen & Jackson

The draft is a crap shoot.

Teams like the Jags, Lions, Jets and even the Giants of late have spent years at the top of the draft. They have nothing to show for it on the field when it comes to winning playoff games.

Winning games is the only way to build a winning culture.

Just draft well wherever those wins take you on draft day.

I’m believing we finally have a GM and HC that will do well in their responsibility towards achieving both.

If we have anyone even fans ready to concede the season at 2-1 we are doomed to continue losing

If you are always sacrificing this year for the future winning will never come

Winning week 16 in 2019 was detrimental to our future. Maybe it's too early to be sure but I for one am glad to have Andrew Thomas as a Giant over Chase Young. Try your best and play to win. Good things might happen. Yes I know the Eagles but f**k them. What goes around comes around. They will live to regret Nate Sudfeld.

I really think some fans have forgotten the simple pleasure of rooting for your team through thick and thin. Root for our new coach and these young players to have success and achieve something this season that they can build upon.

Playing for draft picks is the worst thing you can do. To even suggest this when we are 2-1 for the first time in a decade is absolutely ridiculous.

This is why coaches and players think reporters and fans don't understand the game

exist and are different at every single pick so I usually don't get too caught up in overthinking that.

However when you are focusing in on replacing your starting QB, like the Giants probably will in the next draft (or one after), then that draft slot has bigger implications. You can still solve for it but it obviously becomes more expensive.

Play to win still trumps in the end.

is to develop the players just drafted into good, productive NFL players, develop the coaching staff so that guys like Daboll and Kafka see what works and what doesn't. It is to see what backups have potential and which veterans are not worth keeping or are worth keeping.
You play the games o win. Development of your recent picks leads to winning.
No my friend winning is in no way detrimental to the future because tomorrow is the future.

We say the same thing and still suck. On and on it goes. Can we at least want to win this season?

I don't think we've been trying to lose (except maybe at the end of last year, depending on whether Jones' mystery injury was real).

If we get wins, it means the team is better than expected, and that is a good thing.

That said, when draft time comes, it's better to be picking higher than lower. Arguments otherwise are bullshit. The draft is not a crapshoot. It's an evaluation, using slippery parameters. Taking the wrong player means you evaluated wrong. If your evaluation is right, and the player is off the board, you're going to be wishing game winning field goals had gone the other way.

are all the good teams in the NFL a product of picking only in the top 3? How many coaching staffs can sell tanking as a strategy to the guys busting their ass every day? How many #1 overall picks bust?

have no problem losing games. We don't need to invent reasons to do it.

Say our braintrust is really sold on one of the top QBs. And that they are willing to push in hard to move up to get him.

Say we win 3-4 games against the likes of Washington, Chicago, Houston. Boring games with scores like 16-13, 19-10. Seems plausible.

If we win those games, we might have to give up a 2023 2nd, and 1st round picks in 23 and 24.

If we lose those games 16-13, then we don't have to give up those 1st round picks.

So are a couple of 16-13 wins against terrible teams in a lost season worth 2 1st round picks? Not to me.

Again, I'm not saying don't try. I'm saying if you fast forward to the end of the year, we're better off with 4 wins than scraping out 3-4 additional toss-up wins against scrub teams.

Someone has been saying it every year for a while now.

If the Giants always have to play to tank iM gonna have to give them up. No fun to watch at all. Bleech

and you want to (a) get them fired or (b) make the draft choices as obvious as possible for them. Never had a problem with the tanking philosophy under Gettleman for those reasons.

If you have any faith in this new group, we can put that on hold for now.

applies to coaches and the front office as well. A lot of these guys (outside of Wink) are in the first year in these roles.

Additionally, while the roster is bad it’s not getting 100% turned over. With that, some guys may hang around a couple years and having them experience some success now bodes well for the future as the team (hopefully) adds more talented players. Then you’ll have guys who’ve won previously be able to lead the way for the newcomers.

building a winning culture. Even passively trying not to win games rubs off on the players, and they are less likely to give max effort. Play to win every game, worry about the draft when it comes.

higher draft position carries over to all the lower rounds, too. It is always better to have more players to choose from.


The question whether we should try to win, or try to lose. The question was whether wins are detrimental to the future.

the argument is whether winning building a culture trumps having better draft position.

I don't think W's build a culture. I think quality of coaching/management builds a culture. Having quality players builds a culture. Having a couple of ball bounces going for, or against, us isn't going to make or break Schoen/Daboll and Company.

Having better draft position will help build a better team, if we have management capable of taking advantage of it.

I'd rather have a team capable of winning, from management to players to support staff. But there is no denying that when it comes to adding to the player talent, drafting higher is better. So yes, W's are detrimental. It may not be catastrophically detrimental, but when it comes to building for the future, at the end of the season, unless you're making the playoffs, W's are a negative.

was NOT whether we should try to win or lose

it's not worth it to lose. Team pride and building a culture of winning is important. That being said

Losing at the end of last year especially the way we did I think was important to seal the fate of Judge and to a lesser extent DG and to also ensure they didn't look in house to hire again.


I don't want to lose this year but I do feel like a certain number of wins could lock us into Jones on a contract his play doesn't merit and cost the team long term.

I'd bet good money if JS is sold on a QB he will have the guts to make a move up.

in 1983 we were 3-12-1 under Parcells.

In 1984 we were 9-7-0 and on our way. Should we have tanked in 1984 to try to get a better draft pick since we were only 9-7-0? No way.

I understand we have different players and coaches today. But the idea is to turn this around and start winning games.

5-11 would have changed all of our lives

win and let the cards fall where they may. There’s other ways of getting a QB. Also T Taylor is on board for another year too, if needed as a bridge. Could give Jones the FT if necessary, as well. I assure you, the players and coaches on this team are not thinking about losing because they might have a better draft pick!

problem we are likely to have. We could easily be 0-3 right now.

Lol. You can't just tank and keep losing and losing in order to get good. It doesn't work that way. You have to start establishing a winning culture and change the narrative at some point.

All of the bad football we've been watching over the years has made some of you guys crazy. The way out of this isn't to just get worse and worse.

We need to start winning some football games. We can't box with the heavyweights now, but we can win some football games with this team.. we already have. We have another winnable game on Sunday against a team with just as many problems as we have.

There are a lot of BAD teams in the NFL right now. The Giants shouldn't be racing them to get worse.

the team needs so many core (semi-core?) pieces still to truly compete for something meaningful in this league. And while there is a benefit to learning how to compete/win, so many of these players won't be around long enough for that to matter that much.

The team needs a QB & reliable Offensive playmakers in the worst way so beating bad teams that will draft in front of us does indeed hurt on optionality.

The good news is I have faith in this roster that they don't need to tank in order to lose a whole lot of games this season.

A few bad snaps for Gano would go a long way :-)

Then I don't think that losing gives you that much of an advantage.

2017 Top 5 draft picks:
Myles Garrett
Mitchell Trubisky
Solomon Thomas
Leonard Fournette
Corey Davis

2018 Top 5 draft picks:
Baker Mayfield
Saquon Barkley
Sam Darnold
Denzel Ward
Bradley Chubb

2019 Top 5 draft picks:
Kyler Murray
Nick Bosa
Quinnen Williams
Clelin Ferrell
Devin White

2020 Top 5 draft picks:
Joe Burrow
Chase Young
Jeff Okudah
Andrew Thomas
Tua Tagovailoa

I left out 2021 and 2022 since it's still early days for those players, but from the above list, I'd say 9-10 of them have turned out to be solid to great players, while the rest have been disappointments to outright flops. That's coin flip odds. And I haven't even mentioned recent players picked outside the top 10 (Justin Jefferson, Micah Parsons) who have become game-changers.

I'll always defer to Coach Parcells, who once said that you try to win every game, whether it counts or not. I'd rather get a few more wins, build the right expectations and mindset for what the franchise should be moving forward, and rely on management to make the right moves to add talent, whether it's draft, trade, free agency, whatever, than put all your chips in the "get high draft picks" basket and hope everything else works out.

We need stability for the long term. Winning games will get the fans behind the new regime which will allow them to continue to operate for the future. I don't want another new head coach in two years. We need consistency.