Thibs doesn't deserve 1/100th of the hate that Toney deserves.
Yeesh
To the Toney haters let me just ask this question..
Is there ANY chance, any at all... that the dude has simply had bad luck with injuries for the last 18 months?
Think of Jose Reyes when he came up and couldn't keep his legs healthy...talent was obvious, but he couldnt stay on the field.. then he changed some things, got some treatment, and became a durable player on HOF career path (until Madoff scandal derailed his career)
The coach says he does all the right things, the media really doesn't rip him at all, and yet this perception that he doesn't care about football and isn't tough enough to gut out injuries persists here on BBI.
So is there any chance at all that he is just ACTUALLY dealing with real injuries and that what Daboll says IS the truth?
Exactly, it shouldn't be hard to understand. I have zero issues with whatever KT wants to do off the field, if he wants to have a sidebar rap career, good on him! But football has to be more of a priority for him, or else he won't be in the league much longer.
Thibs doesn't deserve 1/100th of the hate that Toney deserves.
Yeesh
To the Toney haters let me just ask this question..
Is there ANY chance, any at all... that the dude has simply had bad luck with injuries for the last 18 months?
Think of Jose Reyes when he came up and couldn't keep his legs healthy...talent was obvious, but he couldnt stay on the field.. then he changed some things, got some treatment, and became a durable player on HOF career path (until Madoff scandal derailed his career)
The coach says he does all the right things, the media really doesn't rip him at all, and yet this perception that he doesn't care about football and isn't tough enough to gut out injuries persists here on BBI.
So is there any chance at all that he is just ACTUALLY dealing with real injuries and that what Daboll says IS the truth?
Read the first sentence of your post. He's been injured for 18 months straight?
Man, I wish I could be that gullible. And even if this is all true, he still deserves to be called out. He's a 1st round pick and is NEVER on the field. Literally, never. But keep holding onto that one Dallas game from last year. Certainly isn't the outlier. Not at all.
Yes, he was clearly injured fairly seriously in the preseason. We all saw it. I was wondering if he really should have played Monday but will trust the coaches on this one.
Is there any chance that he has actually been dealing with real injuries?
Any chance at all?
Again there seems to be a perception that he just doesn't want to play or push through injuries.
That's based on assumptions, not facts.
Actually, he never plays. So, it isn't assumption. Unless you really think he's been injured for literally 18 months straight.
Let's not forget the cleat situation from last year, too. Totally a guy who wants to get on the field..
Holy crap man...
The assumption comes in with the reason...
You and others assume he isn't really injured.
My question is why do you not consider the possibility that he truly has been injured (just as Jose Reyes was) and hasn't been able to get healthy?
Because he never shows he wants to get on the field. Ever. Why do you assume he is constantly injured to the point that he can rarely PRACTICE or play in games?
you're saying its a stretch, but I'm giving you a clear historical example of it happening to a guy who became a superstar and franchise legend once he figured it out
you're saying its a stretch, but I'm giving you a clear historical example of it happening to a guy who became a superstar and franchise legend once he figured it out
In a completely different sport. In a time period from 15 or so years ago.
Whoa. You really got us there.
Look going into the 2021 draft there was a huge red flag on Toney
As to his commitment to playing football. The question was is Toney’s priority football.
A lot of people thought that red flag was BS
It was not and we are now seeing this first hand.
Moze, for me it’s total disappointment in Toney not hatred.
RE: Look going into the 2021 draft there was a huge red flag on Toney
As to his commitment to playing football. The question was is Toney’s priority football.
A lot of people thought that red flag was BS
It was not and we are now seeing this first hand.
Moze, for me it’s total disappointment in Toney not hatred.
Then shame on Daboll for covering for him. Shame on the media for not calling him out.
The only place I hear or read negative comments on Toney is BBI and Twitter
Toney constantly being injured is still a huge problem because he is literally always injured. It's not like if this is true, it's a good thing for the team. Either way, the team is fucked.
The fact that there were questions about his commitment coming out of college is a huge red flag, too. He was terrible pick. There is no way around it.
Toney constantly being injured is still a huge problem because he is literally always injured. It's not like if this is true, it's a good thing for the team. Either way, the team is fucked.
I agree with this. But then it's compassion for the athlete vs vitriol.
some on BBI give to a guy who has played one good half of football in 1 1/4 seasons is baffling. I get being wowed with Toney's talent, but at some point, he needs to be on the field.
And I'm empathetic to speed guys who struggle to keep their legs healthy, but that is only part of the story with KT. He blows off OTA's with a new coaching staff and offensive system, misses practice for not having his shoes. There is nothing that I have seen that tells me football is a priority. And I was one who defended KT when posters used his rap career as a talking point about his lack of dedication to football.
Toney constantly being injured is still a huge problem because he is literally always injured. It's not like if this is true, it's a good thing for the team. Either way, the team is fucked.
I agree with this. But then it's compassion for the athlete vs vitriol.
I have no compassion for a guy who doesn't give a fuck about playing football or the team he's supposed to be a part of. You're allowed to be as gullible as you wish and that's fine. But no one's going to go along with it when it's quite easy to see who this guy really is.
some on BBI give to a guy who has played one good half of football in 1 1/4 seasons is baffling. I get being wowed with Toney's talent, but at some point, he needs to be on the field.
And I'm empathetic to speed guys who struggle to keep their legs healthy, but that is only part of the story with KT. He blows off OTA's with a new coaching staff and offensive system, misses practice for not having his shoes. There is nothing that I have seen that tells me football is a priority. And I was one who defended KT when posters used his rap career as a talking point about his lack of dedication to football.
Amazing, isn't it? I have compassion for guys like Tua who clearly WANTS to play as much as possible and help his team win.
To me, there is a CLEAR difference between the two mindsets of players/people like Tua and Toney. Give me Tua over a guy like Toney everyday of the week. Not only as a player, but as someone who's passionate about playing and helping his team win. Toney doesn't have one ounce of that in him.
Toney constantly being injured is still a huge problem because he is literally always injured. It's not like if this is true, it's a good thing for the team. Either way, the team is fucked.
I agree with this. But then it's compassion for the athlete vs vitriol.
I have no compassion for a guy who doesn't give a fuck about playing football or the team he's supposed to be a part of. You're allowed to be as gullible as you wish and that's fine. But no one's going to go along with it when it's quite easy to see who this guy really is.
I simply don't know for a fact that he doesn't care. No one besides BBI observers have said it.
Toney constantly being injured is still a huge problem because he is literally always injured. It's not like if this is true, it's a good thing for the team. Either way, the team is fucked.
I agree with this. But then it's compassion for the athlete vs vitriol.
I have no compassion for a guy who doesn't give a fuck about playing football or the team he's supposed to be a part of. You're allowed to be as gullible as you wish and that's fine. But no one's going to go along with it when it's quite easy to see who this guy really is.
I simply don't know for a fact that he doesn't care. No one besides BBI observers have said it.
You don't have to know. So, that's fine.
I see a guy who whenever he has actually gotten on the field...
which isn't enough! and I agree its a HUGE problem that he can't stay on the field!
... but when he has gotten the ball, I see a player who runs harder and gives more effort than any other player on the damn team since Bradshaw and Jacobs.
Thats what my eyes see...
So its hard for me to see a player try so hard when he's on the field and think he doesn't care..
Golladay, on the other hand, is just clearly going through the motions.
which isn't enough! and I agree its a HUGE problem that he can't stay on the field!
... but when he has gotten the ball, I see a player who runs harder and gives more effort than any other player on the damn team since Bradshaw and Jacobs.
Thats what my eyes see...
So its hard for me to see a player try so hard when he's on the field and think he doesn't care..
Golladay, on the other hand, is just clearly going through the motions.
You're just assuming he runs harder than anyone else. You don't know that for a fact. Don't make assumptions.
RE: RE: I see a guy who whenever he has actually gotten on the field...
which isn't enough! and I agree its a HUGE problem that he can't stay on the field!
... but when he has gotten the ball, I see a player who runs harder and gives more effort than any other player on the damn team since Bradshaw and Jacobs.
Thats what my eyes see...
So its hard for me to see a player try so hard when he's on the field and think he doesn't care..
Golladay, on the other hand, is just clearly going through the motions.
You're just assuming he runs harder than anyone else. You don't know that for a fact. Don't make assumptions.
It's not assuming when it's observed...
You assume that the REASON he isn't playing is that he doesnt care..when the medical staff, coaches, media, and the player himself all say he is injured
So let me give you an example:
Someone askes whether its warm or cold outside
I go outside... it feels warm. I say its warm. I don't assume its warm, I observe it.
Someone asks why a student isn't doing well in school
His test results are bad. Thats a fact. Teachers say he is trying, student says he's trying, perhaps he has a learning disability? But perhaps you ASSUME that its because he doesn't care, without considering that maybe he actually does just have a learning disability. It's still a problem that needs to be solved, but its not for lack of student care/effort. You can't go into his home and observe whether or not he is trying, but you assume he's just playing video games and not caring rather than studying.
Thibs doesn't deserve 1/100th of the hate that Toney deserves.
Yeesh
To the Toney haters let me just ask this question..
Is there ANY chance, any at all... that the dude has simply had bad luck with injuries for the last 18 months?
Think of Jose Reyes when he came up and couldn't keep his legs healthy...talent was obvious, but he couldnt stay on the field.. then he changed some things, got some treatment, and became a durable player on HOF career path (until Madoff scandal derailed his career)
The coach says he does all the right things, the media really doesn't rip him at all, and yet this perception that he doesn't care about football and isn't tough enough to gut out injuries persists here on BBI.
So is there any chance at all that he is just ACTUALLY dealing with real injuries and that what Daboll says IS the truth?
No, there's not.
He's on the injury report 80% of weeks in his career. That's not just bad luck. He forgot his cleats before his very first NFL practice. That's not bad luck. He decided that he didn't need to attend the first round of voluntary minicamps this past offseason.
Any of these things, maybe you can chalk it up to bad luck. When it's regular and repeated, and includes more than just injuries, and that same history goes back to college, it's fair to view Toney's issues as more than just bad luck.
There's a dedication problem here, IMO. And the injuries (or lack of willingness to play through any of them) are just a byproduct of the dedication problem itself.
RE: The most fascinating thing about Kadarius Toney
is that the one good game he had against Dallas, is almost half of his career production.
And that game also gives us a perfect reminder that even in his finest NFL moment to date, Toney still had his reliability (or lack thereof) on full display: he got ejected from that game.
pre-draft, because this shit has been going on since his college days, and they still picked his dumb arse. He's a flake and he doesn't want to partake in the process of being a professional football player. It's that simple.
Thibs doesn't deserve 1/100th of the hate that Toney deserves.
Yeesh
To the Toney haters let me just ask this question..
Is there ANY chance, any at all... that the dude has simply had bad luck with injuries for the last 18 months?
Think of Jose Reyes when he came up and couldn't keep his legs healthy...talent was obvious, but he couldnt stay on the field.. then he changed some things, got some treatment, and became a durable player on HOF career path (until Madoff scandal derailed his career)
The coach says he does all the right things, the media really doesn't rip him at all, and yet this perception that he doesn't care about football and isn't tough enough to gut out injuries persists here on BBI.
So is there any chance at all that he is just ACTUALLY dealing with real injuries and that what Daboll says IS the truth?
Pay attention to what Daboll does not what he says. Toney injured his hammy in early August. If this hammy were serious enough to STILL be missing time, don’t you think they would have put him on short term IR once the season started? The fact they haven’t IR’d him should tell you all you need to know about what they think the severity level is here…
the Toney pick is infuriating in retrospect. I understand missing on a player or just flat out being wrong. But Toney has NEVER been a guy that the Giants have coveted. Ever. And they still picked him. Look at the players after him...Paye, Darrisaw, Newsome, Bateman, Oweh, Elijah Moore...the list goes on.
Literally anyone else would have been better than Toney who has been a disaster.
Pay attention to what Daboll does not what he says. Toney injured his hammy in early August. If this hammy were serious enough to STILL be missing time, don’t you think they would have put him on short term IR once the season started? The fact they haven’t IR’d him should tell you all you need to know about what they think the severity level is here…
And it's not like he's missed every game for injury. He started game 1, and had 2 carries for 23 yards, and played in game 2 and had 2 catches for 0 yards. That he can't get on the field even when healthy should tell you all you need to know about how Daboll sees Toney, but if some certain poster goes by what Daboll says rather than what Daboll does, there's not much we can add to dissuade him.
Thibs doesn't deserve 1/100th of the hate that Toney deserves.
Yeesh
To the Toney haters let me just ask this question..
Is there ANY chance, any at all... that the dude has simply had bad luck with injuries for the last 18 months?
So is there any chance at all that he is just ACTUALLY dealing with real injuries and that what Daboll says IS the truth?
Pay attention to what Daboll does not what he says. Toney injured his hammy in early August. If this hammy were serious enough to STILL be missing time, don’t you think they would have put him on short term IR once the season started? The fact they haven’t IR’d him should tell you all you need to know about what they think the severity level is here…
You realize you can re injure a hamstring very easily right? According to the fantasy wire the team has targeted next weeks London game as him being back.
RE: I really doubt our scouts and Judge et al knew much about Toney
He's a flake and he doesn't want to partake in the process of being a professional football player. It's that simple.
Allegedly per BBI...
And yet the Head Coach has said he has confidence in Toney and that he's done everything they've asked, Saquon says its only a matter of time before he gets healthy and contributes, and Toney himself have said the injuries have held him back but he's happy Giants won despite him not playing...
I'm not saying it's impossible that he is what BBI says and everyone in Giants org is lying publicly...but I'm not one to believe in conspiracy theories like this
And yet the Head Coach has said he has confidence in Toney and that he's done everything they've asked, Saquon says its only a matter of time before he gets healthy and contributes, and Toney himself have said the injuries have held him back but he's happy Giants won despite him not playing...
I'm not saying it's impossible that he is what BBI says and everyone in Giants org is lying publicly...but I'm not one to believe in conspiracy theories like this
Then explain why he's played so little even when healthy. He was healthy for the first 2 games, but only played in 25% of offensive snaps. It doesn't sound like Daboll trusts him despite what he tells the press.
Newsflash, HC's lie all the time. They are not going to drag one of their players in the press unless it is an absolutely last resort. Relying on what a HC says about any player is just naive.
RE: RE: RE: I really doubt our scouts and Judge et al knew much about Toney
And yet the Head Coach has said he has confidence in Toney and that he's done everything they've asked, Saquon says its only a matter of time before he gets healthy and contributes, and Toney himself have said the injuries have held him back but he's happy Giants won despite him not playing...
I'm not saying it's impossible that he is what BBI says and everyone in Giants org is lying publicly...but I'm not one to believe in conspiracy theories like this
Then explain why he's played so little even when healthy. He was healthy for the first 2 games, but only played in 25% of offensive snaps. It doesn't sound like Daboll trusts him despite what he tells the press.
Newsflash, HC's lie all the time. They are not going to drag one of their players in the press unless it is an absolutely last resort. Relying on what a HC says about any player is just naive.
Because the offense is complicated and he’s missed practically all the practice time he possibly could. It’s one thing to know the playbook, it’s an entirely other thing getting reps in and getting all the option routes right against a defense moving pieces around and disguising.
He was increasing his snap count until he got hurt…again.
Toney has failed in that miserably. Until that changes, fans (and, despite what the coaches say, the coaches too) are going to question his motivation. This isn't a new problem. He missed most of last year due to various injuries, he missed chunks of 2 of his 4 seasons at FL, and now he's missing time again.
As I said, I'm empathetic to speed guys who struggle with leg injuries, but he's got to figure it out, or else he won't be in the league much longer.
That was the only skill David Deihl had. He was below average to bad to terrible at every position on the line. But he played every week for a long time and there was value in that.
But I guess unfair to hold Daboll to that standard
When did TC call out a plyer for being injured? TC played the coachspeak game too.
So Toney IS injured?
Or he doesn't care?
Which is it?
If injured, TC would point to the injury report and say "he's got a hammy"
If Toney didn't care and TC felt that way, TC would probably say something like "what Toney and I talk about is between me and him, but he has work to do and he knows it"... he wouldn't say "Toney has done everything we've asked him to. We have confidence in him" if he didn't believe it
But I guess unfair to hold Daboll to that standard
When did TC call out a plyer for being injured? TC played the coachspeak game too.
So Toney IS injured?
Or he doesn't care?
Which is it?
If injured, TC would point to the injury report and say "he's got a hammy"
If Toney didn't care and TC felt that way, TC would probably say something like "what Toney and I talk about is between me and him, but he has work to do and he knows it"... he wouldn't say "Toney has done everything we've asked him to. We have confidence in him" if he didn't believe it
Toney's probably got a wittle bit of an ouchie as usual and doesn't want to pway through his booboo (also as usual), and the new CBA doesn't really give the team much ability to force him to play through it, and it serves them no purpose to publicly shame him into playing, because that also damages any chance they have of trading him (if necessary).
But hey, keep giving him the benefit of the doubt. He's definitely earned it.
If injured, TC would point to the injury report and say "he's got a hammy"
If Toney didn't care and TC felt that way, TC would probably say something like "what Toney and I talk about is between me and him, but he has work to do and he knows it"... he wouldn't say "Toney has done everything we've asked him to. We have confidence in him" if he didn't believe it
I never said Toney wasn't injured. It really doesn't matter whether his injury is real, or if it's something other guys would play through, the reality is that he simply has not been available. If that doesn't improve, he will not be on an NFL roster much longer.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I really doubt our scouts and Judge et al knew much about Toney
And yet the Head Coach has said he has confidence in Toney and that he's done everything they've asked, Saquon says its only a matter of time before he gets healthy and contributes, and Toney himself have said the injuries have held him back but he's happy Giants won despite him not playing...
I'm not saying it's impossible that he is what BBI says and everyone in Giants org is lying publicly...but I'm not one to believe in conspiracy theories like this
Then explain why he's played so little even when healthy. He was healthy for the first 2 games, but only played in 25% of offensive snaps. It doesn't sound like Daboll trusts him despite what he tells the press.
Newsflash, HC's lie all the time. They are not going to drag one of their players in the press unless it is an absolutely last resort. Relying on what a HC says about any player is just naive.
Because the offense is complicated and he’s missed practically all the practice time he possibly could. It’s one thing to know the playbook, it’s an entirely other thing getting reps in and getting all the option routes right against a defense moving pieces around and disguising.
He was increasing his snap count until he got hurt…again.
You are just making excuses on top of excuses for him. If you still don't see the problem here, you're probably never going to see it.
This isn't just an "offense is too complicated" issue.
RE: I really doubt our scouts and Judge et al knew much about Toney
pre-draft, because this shit has been going on since his college days, and they still picked his dumb arse. He's a flake and he doesn't want to partake in the process of being a professional football player. It's that simple.
Yeah, that’s my theory, too, though I’ll never be able to prove it. After the trade down, all the players at the front of their list had been taken and, being the awful organization they were, the next name up was underscouted. Hi Kadarious!
If injured, TC would point to the injury report and say "he's got a hammy"
If Toney didn't care and TC felt that way, TC would probably say something like "what Toney and I talk about is between me and him, but he has work to do and he knows it"... he wouldn't say "Toney has done everything we've asked him to. We have confidence in him" if he didn't believe it
I never said Toney wasn't injured. It really doesn't matter whether his injury is real, or if it's something other guys would play through, the reality is that he simply has not been available. If that doesn't improve, he will not be on an NFL roster much longer.
YOU haven't...
But others are questioning his character and desire to play...thats the debate I'm having.
This all started when I asked the question "is it possible he's really just been injured?" and many basically said "No, he just doesn't care enough"
I agree his injuries are a problem that needs to be solved. But I have compassion for the player in that case, and I'm disappointed by it, but I can't be angry at the person.
Thibs is one of the most important players on the team.
that his commitment to football vs his outside football interests (and building his brand) were potentially very problematic.
Being a number five pick in the draft qualifies - to me - as a prospect who has HoF/Pro bowl ability. The expectations should be extremely high for Thibs. So, I don't really care how he looks in the picture, I am more concerned that he's got a higher bust rate than most acknowledge.
That unless he plays like a hall of fame then he clearly "cares more about his brand".
It's not smart.
There was a concern that Thibs was very interested in building his building his brand and that he had a lot of off-field interests. And those could interfere with football.
However, for me, my concerns were more about Thibs's football ability. The non-football concerns just added to the concerns.
Never knew I could have better abs than an NFL Player who isn't a Lineman, but I'll take it!
But... I dont think it is
Strahan should get on him about this.
Yeesh
To the Toney haters let me just ask this question..
Is there ANY chance, any at all... that the dude has simply had bad luck with injuries for the last 18 months?
Think of Jose Reyes when he came up and couldn't keep his legs healthy...talent was obvious, but he couldnt stay on the field.. then he changed some things, got some treatment, and became a durable player on HOF career path (until Madoff scandal derailed his career)
The coach says he does all the right things, the media really doesn't rip him at all, and yet this perception that he doesn't care about football and isn't tough enough to gut out injuries persists here on BBI.
So is there any chance at all that he is just ACTUALLY dealing with real injuries and that what Daboll says IS the truth?
I actually love the style. What I don’t like is the belly and the lack of a shirt.
Exactly, it shouldn't be hard to understand. I have zero issues with whatever KT wants to do off the field, if he wants to have a sidebar rap career, good on him! But football has to be more of a priority for him, or else he won't be in the league much longer.
Quote:
Thibs doesn't deserve 1/100th of the hate that Toney deserves.
Yeesh
To the Toney haters let me just ask this question..
Is there ANY chance, any at all... that the dude has simply had bad luck with injuries for the last 18 months?
Think of Jose Reyes when he came up and couldn't keep his legs healthy...talent was obvious, but he couldnt stay on the field.. then he changed some things, got some treatment, and became a durable player on HOF career path (until Madoff scandal derailed his career)
The coach says he does all the right things, the media really doesn't rip him at all, and yet this perception that he doesn't care about football and isn't tough enough to gut out injuries persists here on BBI.
So is there any chance at all that he is just ACTUALLY dealing with real injuries and that what Daboll says IS the truth?
Read the first sentence of your post. He's been injured for 18 months straight?
Man, I wish I could be that gullible. And even if this is all true, he still deserves to be called out. He's a 1st round pick and is NEVER on the field. Literally, never. But keep holding onto that one Dallas game from last year. Certainly isn't the outlier. Not at all.
Sheesh. People.
Any chance at all?
Again there seems to be a perception that he just doesn't want to play or push through injuries.
That's based on assumptions, not facts.
Any chance at all?
Again there seems to be a perception that he just doesn't want to play or push through injuries.
That's based on assumptions, not facts.
Actually, he never plays. So, it isn't assumption. Unless you really think he's been injured for literally 18 months straight.
Let's not forget the cleat situation from last year, too. Totally a guy who wants to get on the field..
Is that the question?
Then he completely turned it around and was able to play essentially every game for 4-5 years after
Then he completely turned it around and was able to play essentially every game for 4-5 years after
Okay? What does Jose Reyes have to do with Kadarius Toney? Literally nothing.
Quote:
Is there any chance that he has actually been dealing with real injuries?
Any chance at all?
Again there seems to be a perception that he just doesn't want to play or push through injuries.
That's based on assumptions, not facts.
Actually, he never plays. So, it isn't assumption. Unless you really think he's been injured for literally 18 months straight.
Let's not forget the cleat situation from last year, too. Totally a guy who wants to get on the field..
Holy crap man...
The assumption comes in with the reason...
You and others assume he isn't really injured.
My question is why do you not consider the possibility that he truly has been injured (just as Jose Reyes was) and hasn't been able to get healthy?
Quote:
had hamstring issues for 2 years in his age 20 and 21 seasons
Then he completely turned it around and was able to play essentially every game for 4-5 years after
Okay? What does Jose Reyes have to do with Kadarius Toney? Literally nothing.
I'm giving an example of an elite athlete being injured for 2 years because that somehow seems to be inconceivable to you
Quote:
In comment 15838613 moze1021 said:
Quote:
Is there any chance that he has actually been dealing with real injuries?
Any chance at all?
Again there seems to be a perception that he just doesn't want to play or push through injuries.
That's based on assumptions, not facts.
Actually, he never plays. So, it isn't assumption. Unless you really think he's been injured for literally 18 months straight.
Let's not forget the cleat situation from last year, too. Totally a guy who wants to get on the field..
Holy crap man...
The assumption comes in with the reason...
You and others assume he isn't really injured.
My question is why do you not consider the possibility that he truly has been injured (just as Jose Reyes was) and hasn't been able to get healthy?
Because he never shows he wants to get on the field. Ever. Why do you assume he is constantly injured to the point that he can rarely PRACTICE or play in games?
Damn. You are special.
Quote:
In comment 15838616 moze1021 said:
Quote:
had hamstring issues for 2 years in his age 20 and 21 seasons
Then he completely turned it around and was able to play essentially every game for 4-5 years after
Okay? What does Jose Reyes have to do with Kadarius Toney? Literally nothing.
I'm giving an example of an elite athlete being injured for 2 years because that somehow seems to be inconceivable to you
That's right. Because it's quite a stretch. One has nothing to do with the other. Forget play. Toney rarely ever practices.
Quote:
In comment 15838618 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 15838616 moze1021 said:
Quote:
had hamstring issues for 2 years in his age 20 and 21 seasons
Then he completely turned it around and was able to play essentially every game for 4-5 years after
Okay? What does Jose Reyes have to do with Kadarius Toney? Literally nothing.
I'm giving an example of an elite athlete being injured for 2 years because that somehow seems to be inconceivable to you
That's right. Because it's quite a stretch. One has nothing to do with the other. Forget play. Toney rarely ever practices.
What if he doesn't practice because he's injured?
Quote:
In comment 15838623 moze1021 said:
Quote:
In comment 15838618 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 15838616 moze1021 said:
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had hamstring issues for 2 years in his age 20 and 21 seasons
Then he completely turned it around and was able to play essentially every game for 4-5 years after
Okay? What does Jose Reyes have to do with Kadarius Toney? Literally nothing.
I'm giving an example of an elite athlete being injured for 2 years because that somehow seems to be inconceivable to you
That's right. Because it's quite a stretch. One has nothing to do with the other. Forget play. Toney rarely ever practices.
What if he doesn't practice because he's injured?
What if he doesn't practice because he doesn't have the right size cleats? Oh, he already used that excuse last year. Nevermind.
How can someone constantly be injured if they never play or practice? When is he getting injured exactly?
You'd think people would learn their lesson from being wrong time and time again over the past decade..
With reports the Giants shopped Toney after taking a WR in the draft that plays the exact same position
Then it comes out that the Giants felt Toney could have played the final preseason game
In a completely different sport. In a time period from 15 or so years ago.
Whoa. You really got us there.
A lot of people thought that red flag was BS
It was not and we are now seeing this first hand.
Moze, for me it’s total disappointment in Toney not hatred.
A lot of people thought that red flag was BS
It was not and we are now seeing this first hand.
Moze, for me it’s total disappointment in Toney not hatred.
Then shame on Daboll for covering for him. Shame on the media for not calling him out.
The only place I hear or read negative comments on Toney is BBI and Twitter
The fact that there were questions about his commitment coming out of college is a huge red flag, too. He was terrible pick. There is no way around it.
So forgive me if I get skeptical of the motives/driving forces for the hate/disappointment
Terrible pick.
I agree with this. But then it's compassion for the athlete vs vitriol.
And I'm empathetic to speed guys who struggle to keep their legs healthy, but that is only part of the story with KT. He blows off OTA's with a new coaching staff and offensive system, misses practice for not having his shoes. There is nothing that I have seen that tells me football is a priority. And I was one who defended KT when posters used his rap career as a talking point about his lack of dedication to football.
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Toney constantly being injured is still a huge problem because he is literally always injured. It's not like if this is true, it's a good thing for the team. Either way, the team is fucked.
I agree with this. But then it's compassion for the athlete vs vitriol.
I have no compassion for a guy who doesn't give a fuck about playing football or the team he's supposed to be a part of. You're allowed to be as gullible as you wish and that's fine. But no one's going to go along with it when it's quite easy to see who this guy really is.
And I'm empathetic to speed guys who struggle to keep their legs healthy, but that is only part of the story with KT. He blows off OTA's with a new coaching staff and offensive system, misses practice for not having his shoes. There is nothing that I have seen that tells me football is a priority. And I was one who defended KT when posters used his rap career as a talking point about his lack of dedication to football.
Amazing, isn't it? I have compassion for guys like Tua who clearly WANTS to play as much as possible and help his team win.
To me, there is a CLEAR difference between the two mindsets of players/people like Tua and Toney. Give me Tua over a guy like Toney everyday of the week. Not only as a player, but as someone who's passionate about playing and helping his team win. Toney doesn't have one ounce of that in him.
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In comment 15838641 Dave in Hoboken said:
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Toney constantly being injured is still a huge problem because he is literally always injured. It's not like if this is true, it's a good thing for the team. Either way, the team is fucked.
I agree with this. But then it's compassion for the athlete vs vitriol.
I have no compassion for a guy who doesn't give a fuck about playing football or the team he's supposed to be a part of. You're allowed to be as gullible as you wish and that's fine. But no one's going to go along with it when it's quite easy to see who this guy really is.
I simply don't know for a fact that he doesn't care. No one besides BBI observers have said it.
What's more could you possibly need than that?
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In comment 15838645 moze1021 said:
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In comment 15838641 Dave in Hoboken said:
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Toney constantly being injured is still a huge problem because he is literally always injured. It's not like if this is true, it's a good thing for the team. Either way, the team is fucked.
I agree with this. But then it's compassion for the athlete vs vitriol.
I have no compassion for a guy who doesn't give a fuck about playing football or the team he's supposed to be a part of. You're allowed to be as gullible as you wish and that's fine. But no one's going to go along with it when it's quite easy to see who this guy really is.
I simply don't know for a fact that he doesn't care. No one besides BBI observers have said it.
You don't have to know. So, that's fine.
... but when he has gotten the ball, I see a player who runs harder and gives more effort than any other player on the damn team since Bradshaw and Jacobs.
Thats what my eyes see...
So its hard for me to see a player try so hard when he's on the field and think he doesn't care..
Golladay, on the other hand, is just clearly going through the motions.
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I simply don't know for a fact that he doesn't care. No one besides BBI observers have said it.
What's more could you possibly need than that?
LOL...touche
... but when he has gotten the ball, I see a player who runs harder and gives more effort than any other player on the damn team since Bradshaw and Jacobs.
Thats what my eyes see...
So its hard for me to see a player try so hard when he's on the field and think he doesn't care..
Golladay, on the other hand, is just clearly going through the motions.
You're just assuming he runs harder than anyone else. You don't know that for a fact. Don't make assumptions.
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which isn't enough! and I agree its a HUGE problem that he can't stay on the field!
... but when he has gotten the ball, I see a player who runs harder and gives more effort than any other player on the damn team since Bradshaw and Jacobs.
Thats what my eyes see...
So its hard for me to see a player try so hard when he's on the field and think he doesn't care..
Golladay, on the other hand, is just clearly going through the motions.
You're just assuming he runs harder than anyone else. You don't know that for a fact. Don't make assumptions.
It's not assuming when it's observed...
You assume that the REASON he isn't playing is that he doesnt care..when the medical staff, coaches, media, and the player himself all say he is injured
So let me give you an example:
Someone askes whether its warm or cold outside
I go outside... it feels warm. I say its warm. I don't assume its warm, I observe it.
Someone asks why a student isn't doing well in school
His test results are bad. Thats a fact. Teachers say he is trying, student says he's trying, perhaps he has a learning disability? But perhaps you ASSUME that its because he doesn't care, without considering that maybe he actually does just have a learning disability. It's still a problem that needs to be solved, but its not for lack of student care/effort. You can't go into his home and observe whether or not he is trying, but you assume he's just playing video games and not caring rather than studying.
He chose to present himself as someone who is as the very least apathetic and perhaps disrespectful.
Anyway...
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Thibs doesn't deserve 1/100th of the hate that Toney deserves.
Yeesh
To the Toney haters let me just ask this question..
Is there ANY chance, any at all... that the dude has simply had bad luck with injuries for the last 18 months?
Think of Jose Reyes when he came up and couldn't keep his legs healthy...talent was obvious, but he couldnt stay on the field.. then he changed some things, got some treatment, and became a durable player on HOF career path (until Madoff scandal derailed his career)
The coach says he does all the right things, the media really doesn't rip him at all, and yet this perception that he doesn't care about football and isn't tough enough to gut out injuries persists here on BBI.
So is there any chance at all that he is just ACTUALLY dealing with real injuries and that what Daboll says IS the truth?
No, there's not.
He's on the injury report 80% of weeks in his career. That's not just bad luck. He forgot his cleats before his very first NFL practice. That's not bad luck. He decided that he didn't need to attend the first round of voluntary minicamps this past offseason.
Any of these things, maybe you can chalk it up to bad luck. When it's regular and repeated, and includes more than just injuries, and that same history goes back to college, it's fair to view Toney's issues as more than just bad luck.
There's a dedication problem here, IMO. And the injuries (or lack of willingness to play through any of them) are just a byproduct of the dedication problem itself.
And that game also gives us a perfect reminder that even in his finest NFL moment to date, Toney still had his reliability (or lack thereof) on full display: he got ejected from that game.
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Thibs doesn't deserve 1/100th of the hate that Toney deserves.
Yeesh
To the Toney haters let me just ask this question..
Is there ANY chance, any at all... that the dude has simply had bad luck with injuries for the last 18 months?
Think of Jose Reyes when he came up and couldn't keep his legs healthy...talent was obvious, but he couldnt stay on the field.. then he changed some things, got some treatment, and became a durable player on HOF career path (until Madoff scandal derailed his career)
The coach says he does all the right things, the media really doesn't rip him at all, and yet this perception that he doesn't care about football and isn't tough enough to gut out injuries persists here on BBI.
So is there any chance at all that he is just ACTUALLY dealing with real injuries and that what Daboll says IS the truth?
Pay attention to what Daboll does not what he says. Toney injured his hammy in early August. If this hammy were serious enough to STILL be missing time, don’t you think they would have put him on short term IR once the season started? The fact they haven’t IR’d him should tell you all you need to know about what they think the severity level is here…
Literally anyone else would have been better than Toney who has been a disaster.
Pay attention to what Daboll does not what he says. Toney injured his hammy in early August. If this hammy were serious enough to STILL be missing time, don’t you think they would have put him on short term IR once the season started? The fact they haven’t IR’d him should tell you all you need to know about what they think the severity level is here…
And it's not like he's missed every game for injury. He started game 1, and had 2 carries for 23 yards, and played in game 2 and had 2 catches for 0 yards. That he can't get on the field even when healthy should tell you all you need to know about how Daboll sees Toney, but if some certain poster goes by what Daboll says rather than what Daboll does, there's not much we can add to dissuade him.
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In comment 15838572 Dave in Hoboken said:
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Thibs doesn't deserve 1/100th of the hate that Toney deserves.
Yeesh
To the Toney haters let me just ask this question..
Is there ANY chance, any at all... that the dude has simply had bad luck with injuries for the last 18 months?
So is there any chance at all that he is just ACTUALLY dealing with real injuries and that what Daboll says IS the truth?
Pay attention to what Daboll does not what he says. Toney injured his hammy in early August. If this hammy were serious enough to STILL be missing time, don’t you think they would have put him on short term IR once the season started? The fact they haven’t IR’d him should tell you all you need to know about what they think the severity level is here…
You realize you can re injure a hamstring very easily right? According to the fantasy wire the team has targeted next weeks London game as him being back.
Allegedly per BBI...
And yet the Head Coach has said he has confidence in Toney and that he's done everything they've asked, Saquon says its only a matter of time before he gets healthy and contributes, and Toney himself have said the injuries have held him back but he's happy Giants won despite him not playing...
I'm not saying it's impossible that he is what BBI says and everyone in Giants org is lying publicly...but I'm not one to believe in conspiracy theories like this
That's Big Dex. He's SUPPOSED to be that big. ;-)
Allegedly per BBI...
And yet the Head Coach has said he has confidence in Toney and that he's done everything they've asked, Saquon says its only a matter of time before he gets healthy and contributes, and Toney himself have said the injuries have held him back but he's happy Giants won despite him not playing...
I'm not saying it's impossible that he is what BBI says and everyone in Giants org is lying publicly...but I'm not one to believe in conspiracy theories like this
Then explain why he's played so little even when healthy. He was healthy for the first 2 games, but only played in 25% of offensive snaps. It doesn't sound like Daboll trusts him despite what he tells the press.
Newsflash, HC's lie all the time. They are not going to drag one of their players in the press unless it is an absolutely last resort. Relying on what a HC says about any player is just naive.
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Allegedly per BBI...
And yet the Head Coach has said he has confidence in Toney and that he's done everything they've asked, Saquon says its only a matter of time before he gets healthy and contributes, and Toney himself have said the injuries have held him back but he's happy Giants won despite him not playing...
I'm not saying it's impossible that he is what BBI says and everyone in Giants org is lying publicly...but I'm not one to believe in conspiracy theories like this
Then explain why he's played so little even when healthy. He was healthy for the first 2 games, but only played in 25% of offensive snaps. It doesn't sound like Daboll trusts him despite what he tells the press.
Newsflash, HC's lie all the time. They are not going to drag one of their players in the press unless it is an absolutely last resort. Relying on what a HC says about any player is just naive.
Because the offense is complicated and he’s missed practically all the practice time he possibly could. It’s one thing to know the playbook, it’s an entirely other thing getting reps in and getting all the option routes right against a defense moving pieces around and disguising.
He was increasing his snap count until he got hurt…again.
But I guess unfair to hold Daboll to that standard
As I said, I'm empathetic to speed guys who struggle with leg injuries, but he's got to figure it out, or else he won't be in the league much longer.
But I guess unfair to hold Daboll to that standard
When did TC call out a plyer for being injured? TC played the coachspeak game too.
That said, everything around this player is all speculation and no one is willing to put their name on anything. It's rumor and gossip until it's not.
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That's my benchmark for coach communication
But I guess unfair to hold Daboll to that standard
When did TC call out a plyer for being injured? TC played the coachspeak game too.
So Toney IS injured?
Or he doesn't care?
Which is it?
If injured, TC would point to the injury report and say "he's got a hammy"
If Toney didn't care and TC felt that way, TC would probably say something like "what Toney and I talk about is between me and him, but he has work to do and he knows it"... he wouldn't say "Toney has done everything we've asked him to. We have confidence in him" if he didn't believe it
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In comment 15838860 moze1021 said:
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That's my benchmark for coach communication
But I guess unfair to hold Daboll to that standard
When did TC call out a plyer for being injured? TC played the coachspeak game too.
So Toney IS injured?
Or he doesn't care?
Which is it?
If injured, TC would point to the injury report and say "he's got a hammy"
If Toney didn't care and TC felt that way, TC would probably say something like "what Toney and I talk about is between me and him, but he has work to do and he knows it"... he wouldn't say "Toney has done everything we've asked him to. We have confidence in him" if he didn't believe it
Toney's probably got a wittle bit of an ouchie as usual and doesn't want to pway through his booboo (also as usual), and the new CBA doesn't really give the team much ability to force him to play through it, and it serves them no purpose to publicly shame him into playing, because that also damages any chance they have of trading him (if necessary).
But hey, keep giving him the benefit of the doubt. He's definitely earned it.
So Toney IS injured?
Or he doesn't care?
Which is it?
If injured, TC would point to the injury report and say "he's got a hammy"
If Toney didn't care and TC felt that way, TC would probably say something like "what Toney and I talk about is between me and him, but he has work to do and he knows it"... he wouldn't say "Toney has done everything we've asked him to. We have confidence in him" if he didn't believe it
I never said Toney wasn't injured. It really doesn't matter whether his injury is real, or if it's something other guys would play through, the reality is that he simply has not been available. If that doesn't improve, he will not be on an NFL roster much longer.
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In comment 15838809 moze1021 said:
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Allegedly per BBI...
And yet the Head Coach has said he has confidence in Toney and that he's done everything they've asked, Saquon says its only a matter of time before he gets healthy and contributes, and Toney himself have said the injuries have held him back but he's happy Giants won despite him not playing...
I'm not saying it's impossible that he is what BBI says and everyone in Giants org is lying publicly...but I'm not one to believe in conspiracy theories like this
Then explain why he's played so little even when healthy. He was healthy for the first 2 games, but only played in 25% of offensive snaps. It doesn't sound like Daboll trusts him despite what he tells the press.
Newsflash, HC's lie all the time. They are not going to drag one of their players in the press unless it is an absolutely last resort. Relying on what a HC says about any player is just naive.
Because the offense is complicated and he’s missed practically all the practice time he possibly could. It’s one thing to know the playbook, it’s an entirely other thing getting reps in and getting all the option routes right against a defense moving pieces around and disguising.
He was increasing his snap count until he got hurt…again.
You are just making excuses on top of excuses for him. If you still don't see the problem here, you're probably never going to see it.
This isn't just an "offense is too complicated" issue.
Yeah, that’s my theory, too, though I’ll never be able to prove it. After the trade down, all the players at the front of their list had been taken and, being the awful organization they were, the next name up was underscouted. Hi Kadarious!
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So Toney IS injured?
Or he doesn't care?
Which is it?
If injured, TC would point to the injury report and say "he's got a hammy"
If Toney didn't care and TC felt that way, TC would probably say something like "what Toney and I talk about is between me and him, but he has work to do and he knows it"... he wouldn't say "Toney has done everything we've asked him to. We have confidence in him" if he didn't believe it
I never said Toney wasn't injured. It really doesn't matter whether his injury is real, or if it's something other guys would play through, the reality is that he simply has not been available. If that doesn't improve, he will not be on an NFL roster much longer.
YOU haven't...
But others are questioning his character and desire to play...thats the debate I'm having.
This all started when I asked the question "is it possible he's really just been injured?" and many basically said "No, he just doesn't care enough"
I agree his injuries are a problem that needs to be solved. But I have compassion for the player in that case, and I'm disappointed by it, but I can't be angry at the person.
Why is this thread all about Toney rather than Thibs style and his lack of conditioning?
Priorities aren’t right.
Being a number five pick in the draft qualifies - to me - as a prospect who has HoF/Pro bowl ability. The expectations should be extremely high for Thibs. So, I don't really care how he looks in the picture, I am more concerned that he's got a higher bust rate than most acknowledge.
It's not smart.
It's not smart.
There was a concern that Thibs was very interested in building his building his brand and that he had a lot of off-field interests. And those could interfere with football.
However, for me, my concerns were more about Thibs's football ability. The non-football concerns just added to the concerns.