To put it simply, I certainly do.
I was talking to my girlfriend a few days ago and she was comparing it to organ sales in which economic incentives can grow great enough where even extremely harmful things become viable alternatives. I pointed out that unlike organ sales there are safer athletic alternatives yet people keep playing football.
That being said I did write my thesis in college on college football pipeline and a statistical analysis of the likelihood of cheating. But even without cheating there is an incredible level of undermining football players ability to get an education that runs deep. This is a bigger problem I have personally I'd say.
That being said, not sure how many people watch the good place but what they discuss on the show is generally where my head is at. Very hard in this world to not support some immoral business or another on a daily basis. I think I'm pretty locked into being a fan, although I don't think I'd let my kids play football. I was thinking more about this because I watched that Tua hit last night and conceivably if players get bigger and the injuries get more brutal who knows? I can't watch UFC really, too brutal, same with boxing. Long way to go before that but wondering if anyone finds themselves closer to their breaking point.
Loved the experience, the travel, the living friends.
Now, I never understood mountain climbing, Mt Everest etc....but I get it.
You can either live your life to the fullest or...sit and watch other live.
Loved the experience, the travel, the living friends.
Now, I never understood mountain climbing, Mt Everest etc....but I get it.
You can either live your life to the fullest or...sit and watch other live.
Former Cowboys TE Gavin Escobar just died while rock climbing. No financial incentive there obviously
I do think youth tackle football should be banned. The risk of injury to developing brains is just too great. Have kids play flag or touch until HS, youth programs can still teach kids how to tackle and block using dummies.
Former Cowboys TE Gavin Escobar just died while rock climbing. No financial incentive there obviously
Wow, I just saw the headline that he had passed, didn't realize it was while rock climbing. RIP. With a son who is an avid rock climber, this news brings a lot of angst.
Now buckle up your chin strap son and get back out there NGD!
Let's fucking go Giants!
I think it's important for boys to test their mettle physically, in competition against others, with a team, etc. At the same time life is short: football has little to no utility after you're done playing (there is no pickup contact football at the gym) and unless you've got a genetic lotto ticket to entertain the pros, you're sacrificing a lot of prime physical and mental time to play a game when that time and energy could be channeled elsewhere.
I'll sleep easy if my kids avoid killing as many brain cells as their old man did :)
I think keeping some physicality in our modern society is good. Getting hit a bit is good. Knowing that there's always someone bigger and stronger than you is good. Knowing that you can still compete against that guy is good. Teamwork, the intensity of football- all so good.
Concussions bad. And I do have some worry, particularly at lower levels that they are handled properly. But overall, a great sport that people love - its a good thing.
That said, I do foresee a time where only poor people take up football as youths, as a way out of poverty. I think, over time, more well-to-do families will encourage their kids to take up safer sports that won't leave them as physically debilitated or CTE'd when they're done playing.
What about how, especially in the south, there are many kids with football abilities that spend more training than doing school work? These are kids that don't yet have the perspective of what an education can bring them that are essentially excused from high school.
Also the cover ups by the NFL on the real damage done to your brain and body. Don't you think that because of the above people are pushed more into football than say coal mining? And have been lacking a lot of the data needed to make an informed choice about the dangers?
They get paid crazy money to play a violent game. Is what it is.
HS football was some of the most fun i’ve ever had in my life, at the old age of 26 i already have some significant disc issues and I would still play in a heartbeat.
As long as it doesn't impact you and there is no coercion... hands off.
But as long as the info is out there men should be allowed to play football and smoke.
I don't have any moral qualms about it though. He really enjoyed his times playing those sports (and I enjoyed watching him) but we ultimately didn't want to keep playing with fire so it wasn't that hard of a decision.
He's good at cross-country and golf now anyway...
:-)
And there has always been this primitive instinct and interest to watch other people compete to show physical dominance for centuries. It seems to be in our blood.
Thus, I don't have any moral issue with any of these sports because those who participate choose so voluntarily. And there has never been more information available to understand the consequences and risk. Let's be honest. Some people are just born and to do these things...
I will add one small caveat. If someone were to die in an NFL game due to an intentional head-to-head it, I think there will be increased attention on this morality issue.
Yet I still enjoy a good football game, which unfortunately the NFL provides less and less.
But that’s not sufficient to completely assuage my qualms. Most players gain little financially from their NFL careers and many come from backgrounds where this is their only to chance for riches, so if they choose the sport freely, that freedom is sharply constrained and they barely benefit.
And the intent of the participants is only one factor for a fan. Do you watch violent activity for fun? I don’t. I hate violent scenes in shows and usually avert my eyes. The violence and the injuries are one of the worst things about this very exciting sport.
So I love the Giants and following them is part of who I am, but the NFL needs to gradually move towards a less violent general level of play. They are doing so but need to keep working at it.
I agree with what was said above, I dont think pre-high school contact football should really exist. I didnt play until 8th grade(its at the HS in my town), played flag football as a kid, and I was able to play throughout HS and into college.
THe one thing that does give me pause about my kids playing is the lack of quality coaching. There are a ton of meatheads out there. I think it's generally a safe game if coached properly
I agree with what was said above, I dont think pre-high school contact football should really exist. I didnt play until 8th grade(its at the HS in my town), played flag football as a kid, and I was able to play throughout HS and into college.
THe one thing that does give me pause about my kids playing is the lack of quality coaching. There are a ton of meatheads out there. I think it's generally a safe game if coached properly
This. Plus the jobs created and massive revenue generated fosters millions in donations to worth while causes that would not have normally received them.
The issue with football is the revelation in the last two decades that the most dangerous risks are longterm, and the evidence is largely unseen and hard to detect (this applies to other sports of course).
I have no problem enjoying and watching dangerous sports, if all the participants and parties are operating in good faith and the information on the risks is freely and transparently shared. That's not always been the case with football.
I hope the NFL continues to evolve their policies and processes on how to limit and treat head injuries.
- That's different from saying people shouldn't be allowed to play the game.
I’m not a hockey fan, but why is that sport always free of criticism? There is hard contact in that sport and fighting to “self regulate” the game.
I don't have any moral qualms about it though. He really enjoyed his times playing those sports (and I enjoyed watching him) but we ultimately didn't want to keep playing with fire so it wasn't that hard of a decision.
He's good at cross-country and golf now anyway...
:-)
Golf- Go with Golf!!!
Grown men know the risks, and if they want to risk their bodies and brains for the chance to be wealthy and famous, that's for them to decide.
With kids and teenagers, it's a lot harder. Children have little-to-no capacity to understand (much less act in) their own best long-term interests. In fact, many adults appear not to know how to do this.
And the same could go for legalized sports betting. State lotteries often support charitable causes like public education. Why not create a public sports book to compete with Draftkings, Fanduel etc to fund public causes?
Neither will ever happen but interesting to think about.
And the same could go for legalized sports betting. State lotteries often support charitable causes like public education. Why not create a public sports book to compete with Draftkings, Fanduel etc to fund public causes?
Neither will ever happen but interesting to think about.
I'd definitely feel the same way as you!
As Maximus Desimus Meridius once asked us...
Are you not entertained?!
Grown men know the risks, and if they want to risk their bodies and brains for the chance to be wealthy and famous, that's for them to decide.
With kids and teenagers, it's a lot harder. Children have little-to-no capacity to understand (much less act in) their own best long-term interests. In fact, many adults appear not to know how to do this.
Yeah this is the crux of it for me though. A kid gets into the sport and they are good at it, especially if their parents see dollar signs. Are they really free to get out?
In Texas, I'm pretty sure they say something like football is religion. How many kids successful get out of the responsibilities of their religious parents when they are devout? There isn't even any financial reward in that.
What are you, some kind of mental health professional? I'd like to see your qaulmifications!
Same. Agree with arniefez and Greg from LI.
I definitely have moral qualms about it, for many of the same reasons I have about horse racing. Namely, that the health and safety of the performers all too often takes a back seat to the money to be made off of them.
I’ve largely, but not completely, disengaged myself from horse racing. In the NFL, it’s now pretty much just the Giants and the playoffs. Not that I’m proud of that. Football is a guilty pleasure. But somehow I don’t register guilt when the NYG are playing—to say nothing of winning!
I also endorse the comments here about how it’s not necessarily an entirely free choice, especially for kids, especially those who don’t have other ways out of hardship lives.
add Soldiers, Policemen, Firemen, Sewer workers, and Nurses to that list
I don't think it's a moral failing to watch the sport. If you watch a car wreck on the side of the road, it's not like you caused it to happen. I think buying tickets and jerseys or some kind of product is worse, but also not absolutely a moral failing. It depends on your character and how you watch the game imo. It's a lot of shades of gray as well.
I once went on a date with a girl who was actually the victim of a bank robbery a day or two prior to us meeting. Weird experience.
I once went on a date with a girl who was actually the victim of a bank robbery a day or two prior to us meeting. Weird experience.
Were you worried she'd recognize you without the mask?
Pro?
Con?
About to get the thread shut down for being too political?
To keep it from doing so, do not respond to the topic.
Just think about it, and have a sound logical framework for supporting your choice, whatever it is. Deploy it IRL should the need arise.
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IMO there are no victims only volunteers in the NFL. The players know what they're signing up for. A chance for fame, money and glory at a very high quality of life threatening risk. I think most of the people who watch the games understand this too.
What about how, especially in the south, there are many kids with football abilities that spend more training than doing school work? These are kids that don't yet have the perspective of what an education can bring them that are essentially excused from high school.
Also the cover ups by the NFL on the real damage done to your brain and body. Don't you think that because of the above people are pushed more into football than say coal mining? And have been lacking a lot of the data needed to make an informed choice about the dangers?
You’re assuming that those kids without football would certainly veer to education instead. I would argue the exact opposite. Football has saved many kids that otherwise would have ended up in the streets. Football at least gives them hope for a way out. Even if it’s a short lived hope for most.
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One job I wouldn't want is being a bank teller. Getting next to nothing to be around someone else's money 5 days a week. Fuck that.
I once went on a date with a girl who was actually the victim of a bank robbery a day or two prior to us meeting. Weird experience.
Were you worried she'd recognize you without the mask?
lol
This is the boat I am in. Although I am really put off by the corruption and greed of the league and the owners.
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In comment 15838817 arniefez said:
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IMO there are no victims only volunteers in the NFL. The players know what they're signing up for. A chance for fame, money and glory at a very high quality of life threatening risk. I think most of the people who watch the games understand this too.
What about how, especially in the south, there are many kids with football abilities that spend more training than doing school work? These are kids that don't yet have the perspective of what an education can bring them that are essentially excused from high school.
Also the cover ups by the NFL on the real damage done to your brain and body. Don't you think that because of the above people are pushed more into football than say coal mining? And have been lacking a lot of the data needed to make an informed choice about the dangers?
You’re assuming that those kids without football would certainly veer to education instead. I would argue the exact opposite. Football has saved many kids that otherwise would have ended up in the streets. Football at least gives them hope for a way out. Even if it’s a short lived hope for most.
The question I think is the extent of the agency they have not alternative outcomes. Because what you are suggesting presents a slippery slope issue.
It's the organ problem I referred to in the OP, selling the organs might very well net improve their lives but it doesn't mean it should be allowed.
The South Park episode on the crack baby athletes touched on the problem pretty well I'd say. The fact that people probabilistically are improving their lives doesn't mean something also can't be morally wrong.
Can the league and owners do more to protect the players? I think so. They are doing a pretty good job but sometimes need a kick in the nuts to do what should be done.
I you choose to join the military that is on you. If you choose to be an ironworker, that is on you. If you choose to be a football player, that is on you.
I would box still at 54 against the right opponent.
I once went on a date with a girl who was actually the victim of a bank robbery a day or two prior to us meeting. Weird experience.
Ben Affleck, is that you (The Town reference)?
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IMO there are no victims only volunteers in the NFL. The players know what they're signing up for. A chance for fame, money and glory at a very high quality of life threatening risk. I think most of the people who watch the games understand this too.
What about how, especially in the south, there are many kids with football abilities that spend more training than doing school work? These are kids that don't yet have the perspective of what an education can bring them that are essentially excused from high school.
Also the cover ups by the NFL on the real damage done to your brain and body. Don't you think that because of the above people are pushed more into football than say coal mining? And have been lacking a lot of the data needed to make an informed choice about the dangers?
I literally said the opposite in the OP which you clearly didn't read. That I argued against that...
I guess you also don't know what a slippery slope is but I'll explain it to you. It's when you take a line of logic and apply it to the extreme. And you suggested in your post that because some people wouldn't be educated anyway maybe it doesn't matter if some of their free will is taken away. I was merely showing you what happens if you liberally apply that logic.
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No offense, but if you honestly equate playing an organized sport that can unfortunately leads to injuries at times to selling organs then maybe you should absolutely walk away from the sport. That’s an incredibly off base and overly dramatic comparison but if you’re that unsettled watching football, find other things to do.
I literally said the opposite in the OP which you clearly didn't read. That I argued against that...
I guess you also don't know what a slippery slope is but I'll explain it to you. It's when you take a line of logic and apply it to the extreme. And you suggested in your post that because some people wouldn't be educated anyway maybe it doesn't matter if some of their free will is taken away. I was merely showing you what happens if you liberally apply that logic.
I have zero interest in your laughable fucking arrogance. And I know exactly what a slippery slope is and that has absolutely nothing to do with you suggesting that football is bad particularly “in the South” because it takes kids out of school and they are missing out on their education. Pull your fucking head out of the sand. Football has done much more good for those kids, even “in the South” than harm. It’s nobodies problem but your own if you don’t understand the importance of high school sports and the roll it plays in shaping young lives. But yeah, I look forward to the self proclaimed smartest guy on the planet telling me once again that I don’t know what a slippery slope is, si ply because I have a different opinion. You’re a real treasure, man
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In comment 15839189 BigBlueShock said:
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No offense, but if you honestly equate playing an organized sport that can unfortunately leads to injuries at times to selling organs then maybe you should absolutely walk away from the sport. That’s an incredibly off base and overly dramatic comparison but if you’re that unsettled watching football, find other things to do.
I literally said the opposite in the OP which you clearly didn't read. That I argued against that...
I guess you also don't know what a slippery slope is but I'll explain it to you. It's when you take a line of logic and apply it to the extreme. And you suggested in your post that because some people wouldn't be educated anyway maybe it doesn't matter if some of their free will is taken away. I was merely showing you what happens if you liberally apply that logic.
I have zero interest in your laughable fucking arrogance. And I know exactly what a slippery slope is and that has absolutely nothing to do with you suggesting that football is bad particularly “in the South” because it takes kids out of school and they are missing out on their education. Pull your fucking head out of the sand. Football has done much more good for those kids, even “in the South” than harm. It’s nobodies problem but your own if you don’t understand the importance of high school sports and the roll it plays in shaping young lives. But yeah, I look forward to the self proclaimed smartest guy on the planet telling me once again that I don’t know what a slippery slope is, si ply because I have a different opinion. You’re a real treasure, man
Lol you come at me aggressively and I respond in kind and you don't like it, poor baby. Again, if you read the OP, I wrote my thesis on this topic. So I'm not making vague comments on the south. I would be happy to refer you to my source material or send you my thesis if you'd like.
Start with 40 million dollar slaves if you'd like to hop off your high horse real fast.
+1
"Morality" is just a tricky concept in a lot of ways outside of the obvious. Many things can have elements of immorality but be "moral", and vice versa. It really depends on your own viewpoints.
The word you are looking for is "barbaric" imo. Is football a "barbaric" form of entertainment following in the lineage of the ancient Mayan soccer-basketball warriors and Roman gladiators? I'd say yes, especially knowing what we now know about head injuries.
But then is baseball "barbaric"? I mean we're having a man stand in front of another man who is throwing a hard ball at speeds of over 100 MPH aimed only a foot or so from his head. Basball isn't exactly a physical sport, but we're still putting the batter at risk for our entertainment. And it's not like the pitcher is safe either, as comeback liners are probably the most dangerous part of the game.
It's up to you to decide where you draw the line.
Learned a ton of things, discipline, working with others, realizing the pads level out disagreements...(All the bullies from Middle School couldnt make the teams becasue they smoked 2 packs a day). It was just a fun time.
As I got older I had more injuries playing pickup games in my 40's. Now days I just watch it on tv....but I dont regret the time or all the broken bones, torn ligaments, etc...except on rainy days.
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One job I wouldn't want is being a bank teller. Getting next to nothing to be around someone else's money 5 days a week. Fuck that.
I once went on a date with a girl who was actually the victim of a bank robbery a day or two prior to us meeting. Weird experience.
Ben Affleck, is that you (The Town reference)?
To this day it’s still one of the worst scenes I’ve ever seen. Ruins the movie.
Bigger problem is at lower levels and not just football. Every year youngsters die. Someone will be paralyzed and many more will have a catastrophic injury. Benefits still far outweigh risks. We need to advance here and put more attention in this area imv.
Interesting thesis. I think you will be surprised how many business leaders, civil service leaders, military leaders, etc. attribute much of their success to what they learned from sports. Calculus has a value. So does learning what it takes to win. BBS is correct about it also providing a way out for many. The right kind of coaches and being on a team that you are accountable to has saved many and provided a solid path in life. Very easy for some to get pulled into the wrong path. Perhaps you can someday learn about the northern cities. I think you'll learn some interesting things.
I think some parents have gotten way out of hand with pressure and expectation they place on kids. Big problem.
Several weeks after his last one, my daughter was hit from behind in her car. She had her seat belt on and didn't hit the windshield but the force was strong enough to give her a concussion anyway. It affected her entire summer that year.
It can happen in daily life, not just sports.
that said, i despise the league, the oligarchs that own the franchises, and the toothless, corrupt, inept NFLPA which, if the sport dies, it’ll be their fault.
Bigger problem is at lower levels and not just football. Every year youngsters die. Someone will be paralyzed and many more will have a catastrophic injury. Benefits still far outweigh risks. We need to advance here and put more attention in this area imv.
Interesting thesis. I think you will be surprised how many business leaders, civil service leaders, military leaders, etc. attribute much of their success to what they learned from sports. Calculus has a value. So does learning what it takes to win. BBS is correct about it also providing a way out for many. The right kind of coaches and being on a team that you are accountable to has saved many and provided a solid path in life. Very easy for some to get pulled into the wrong path. Perhaps you can someday learn about the northern cities. I think you'll learn some interesting things.
I think some parents have gotten way out of hand with pressure and expectation they place on kids. Big problem.
It's not all or nothing. I never once said because an institution is bad or immoral or whatever means it doesn't provide a lot of benefit to tons of people.
I'm not super thrilled with De Beers and conflict diamonds, I don't think I'll ever buy a diamond. Doesn't mean that I think people shouldn't enjoy their engagement rings or the memories attached to them. Doesn't mean that should be compromised in any way.
There was a class at Kansas called story telling for children. The whole class was reading a book to a kindergarten class. It was only discovered that this was a class because a player went in to read to kids and tried to memorize the book and was shown to not be able to read. It was only reported in a local paper because the teacher was so mad at the example it set.
I played football too, I loved football. I got out early enough after I broke my collar bone my freshman year, decided it wasn't for me anymore. My qualms with the football institution doesn't take away from all those great memories and I'm certainly not begrudging others. However, IMO, it's just as wrong to ignore that people are being exploited. These are tricky issues but discussing them is important
But then they go out there and play 60 minutes of what they know is going to cause harm! They do try to curtail the danger with both rules and equipment.
I worry about the sports longevity - but I do agree - it's my favorite sport to watch. They are modern day gladiators.
Also, I'd like to see the NFL do more to take care of the retired players who have either fallen on hard times economically due to injuries or related issues they've had to deal with after their playing days are over.
That said, I understand the question and why you'd ask it.
Also, I'd like to see the NFL do more to take care of the retired players who have either fallen on hard times economically due to injuries or related issues they've had to deal with after their playing days are over.
That said, I understand the question and why you'd ask it.
I'd feel a lot better if players got free health insurance after retiring
It is conversations like this that lead to ridiculous protests and the potential cancelling of the good things in life.
There are more serious issues to be concerned about.
It is conversations like this that lead to ridiculous protests and the potential cancelling of the good things in life.
There are more serious issues to be concerned about.
Not liking something doesn’t = protesting it.
As far as youth football goes, there isn't the slightest chance I'd ever let a kid of mine play the sport. So for that, yes I do have a moral qualm.