for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Do you have any moral qualms with football?

NoGainDayne : 9/30/2022 11:43 am
To put it simply, I certainly do.

I was talking to my girlfriend a few days ago and she was comparing it to organ sales in which economic incentives can grow great enough where even extremely harmful things become viable alternatives. I pointed out that unlike organ sales there are safer athletic alternatives yet people keep playing football.

That being said I did write my thesis in college on college football pipeline and a statistical analysis of the likelihood of cheating. But even without cheating there is an incredible level of undermining football players ability to get an education that runs deep. This is a bigger problem I have personally I'd say.

That being said, not sure how many people watch the good place but what they discuss on the show is generally where my head is at. Very hard in this world to not support some immoral business or another on a daily basis. I think I'm pretty locked into being a fan, although I don't think I'd let my kids play football. I was thinking more about this because I watched that Tua hit last night and conceivably if players get bigger and the injuries get more brutal who knows? I can't watch UFC really, too brutal, same with boxing. Long way to go before that but wondering if anyone finds themselves closer to their breaking point.
Pages: 1 2 | Show All |  Next>>
That is funny....I played Rugby with minimal financial incentives  
George from PA : 9/30/2022 11:48 am : link
With a ton of joint issues now, but wouldn't trade it for the world.

Loved the experience, the travel, the living friends.

Now, I never understood mountain climbing, Mt Everest etc....but I get it.

You can either live your life to the fullest or...sit and watch other live.
RE: That is funny....I played Rugby with minimal financial incentives  
KDavies : 9/30/2022 11:49 am : link
In comment 15838806 George from PA said:
Quote:
With a ton of joint issues now, but wouldn't trade it for the world.

Loved the experience, the travel, the living friends.

Now, I never understood mountain climbing, Mt Everest etc....but I get it.

You can either live your life to the fullest or...sit and watch other live.


Former Cowboys TE Gavin Escobar just died while rock climbing. No financial incentive there obviously
I do struggle with it a bit.  
Section331 : 9/30/2022 11:53 am : link
I have friends who have walked away from the sport completely due to head injuries, but I'm not ready to do that yet, even if I respect their decision. Players do make a conscious decision to play, but that doesn't mean that college and the NFL can't do more to alleviate injury concerns.

I do think youth tackle football should be banned. The risk of injury to developing brains is just too great. Have kids play flag or touch until HS, youth programs can still teach kids how to tackle and block using dummies.
RE: RE: That is funny....I played Rugby with minimal financial incentives  
Section331 : 9/30/2022 11:54 am : link
In comment 15838811 KDavies said:
Quote:

Former Cowboys TE Gavin Escobar just died while rock climbing. No financial incentive there obviously


Wow, I just saw the headline that he had passed, didn't realize it was while rock climbing. RIP. With a son who is an avid rock climber, this news brings a lot of angst.
No.  
arniefez : 9/30/2022 11:56 am : link
IMO there are no victims only volunteers in the NFL. The players know what they're signing up for. A chance for fame, money and glory at a very high quality of life threatening risk. I think most of the people who watch the games understand this too.
Better not to look...  
trueblueinpw : 9/30/2022 11:59 am : link
Life is a fairly fucked up thing. Better not to look too closely at things like morality and the such.

Now buckle up your chin strap son and get back out there NGD!

Let's fucking go Giants!
not really  
Greg from LI : 9/30/2022 12:00 pm : link
There are a lot of very dangerous professions out there. Few of them offer millions in compensation. Are football players worse off than loggers? Coal miners? Commercial divers?
I played through high school  
widmerseyebrow : 9/30/2022 12:01 pm : link
Was OK and thought I'd love for my kids to play someday. 20 years later as a parent, I have to say I wouldn't mind at all if they don't play. I'm definitely not pushing it. The machismo in high school is one thing, but I know it can get ugly starting in college, because they own your ass if you're on scholarship. And you see how far programs are willing to go or look the other way to keep the machine running (Penn State, Baylor, etc.).

I think it's important for boys to test their mettle physically, in competition against others, with a team, etc. At the same time life is short: football has little to no utility after you're done playing (there is no pickup contact football at the gym) and unless you've got a genetic lotto ticket to entertain the pros, you're sacrificing a lot of prime physical and mental time to play a game when that time and energy could be channeled elsewhere.

I'll sleep easy if my kids avoid killing as many brain cells as their old man did :)
No  
Jerry in_DC : 9/30/2022 12:02 pm : link
I think football is great. Its fun. People love playing and watching. And there are lots of good life lessons.

I think keeping some physicality in our modern society is good. Getting hit a bit is good. Knowing that there's always someone bigger and stronger than you is good. Knowing that you can still compete against that guy is good. Teamwork, the intensity of football- all so good.

Concussions bad. And I do have some worry, particularly at lower levels that they are handled properly. But overall, a great sport that people love - its a good thing.
Mostly with the league -- which I cannot stand  
David B. : 9/30/2022 12:04 pm : link
Less so with the game itself.

That said, I do foresee a time where only poor people take up football as youths, as a way out of poverty. I think, over time, more well-to-do families will encourage their kids to take up safer sports that won't leave them as physically debilitated or CTE'd when they're done playing.
RE: No.  
NoGainDayne : 9/30/2022 12:07 pm : link
In comment 15838817 arniefez said:
Quote:
IMO there are no victims only volunteers in the NFL. The players know what they're signing up for. A chance for fame, money and glory at a very high quality of life threatening risk. I think most of the people who watch the games understand this too.


What about how, especially in the south, there are many kids with football abilities that spend more training than doing school work? These are kids that don't yet have the perspective of what an education can bring them that are essentially excused from high school.

Also the cover ups by the NFL on the real damage done to your brain and body. Don't you think that because of the above people are pushed more into football than say coal mining? And have been lacking a lot of the data needed to make an informed choice about the dangers?
No  
GiantGrit : 9/30/2022 12:09 pm : link
I also view NFL players as modern day gladiators. I don’t want anyone to get hurt but we all watch for entertainment knowing full well its gonna happen.

They get paid crazy money to play a violent game. Is what it is.

HS football was some of the most fun i’ve ever had in my life, at the old age of 26 i already have some significant disc issues and I would still play in a heartbeat.
Free people make decisions...  
BamaBlue : 9/30/2022 12:09 pm : link
I am strongly against trying to make moral judgements that impact people's ability to seek happiness. I don't understand why there is a desire to moralize anything with risk. In the context of football, this is a voluntary activity and all facts should be on the table about the risks. With full knowledge, if an adult wants to play football, let them do it. If you don't like it, don't watch and certainly don't wet your pants over it.

As long as it doesn't impact you and there is no coercion... hands off.
What about boxing, mma,  
jvm52106 : 9/30/2022 12:11 pm : link
Hockey, pro wrestling etc??? No I don't have any issue with it at all.
Nope  
Svengali : 9/30/2022 12:13 pm : link
If you love a sport and volunteer then you should be able to play. Never mind the money involved. I do hate the politics now. Don’t want to see it in football.
No  
JB_in_DC : 9/30/2022 12:18 pm : link
These are grown men who know the risks. I take moral issue if league is hiding data/info on long term implications, as they had done in the past. Much like big tobacco decades ago.

But as long as the info is out there men should be allowed to play football and smoke.
NoGain  
arniefez : 9/30/2022 12:21 pm : link
That's a great point but look at how the "labor pool" in the NFL has evolved over the past several decades. Look at who and where the players are recruited from. IMO you are asking a much bigger question than this board can handle civilly. But IMO you're correct.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 9/30/2022 12:23 pm : link
At times, yes. Especially when you see stories like Jim McMahon forgetting where he placed his keys a minute before.
My son played youth football and when the second concussion  
Jimmy Googs : 9/30/2022 12:38 pm : link
occurred, we pulled him out for good. Sure enough, he got another one a year or so later (mild) because he was still on the HS soccer team. My wife was kind of losing it and wanted to just keep him locked in his room for good.

I don't have any moral qualms about it though. He really enjoyed his times playing those sports (and I enjoyed watching him) but we ultimately didn't want to keep playing with fire so it wasn't that hard of a decision.

He's good at cross-country and golf now anyway...

:-)
There is demand for...  
bw in dc : 9/30/2022 12:50 pm : link
boxing and ultimate fighting entertainment, especially ultimate fighting. I find those sports incredibly more violent than football.

And there has always been this primitive instinct and interest to watch other people compete to show physical dominance for centuries. It seems to be in our blood.

Thus, I don't have any moral issue with any of these sports because those who participate choose so voluntarily. And there has never been more information available to understand the consequences and risk. Let's be honest. Some people are just born and to do these things...

I will add one small caveat. If someone were to die in an NFL game due to an intentional head-to-head it, I think there will be increased attention on this morality issue.



What David B. said.  
Red Dog : 9/30/2022 1:09 pm : link
I have grown to hate the money-grubbing, badly officiated, politically compliant NFL.

Yet I still enjoy a good football game, which unfortunately the NFL provides less and less.
Yes, I do and almost stopped watching a few years ago.  
cosmicj : 9/30/2022 1:10 pm : link
The players are there of their own free will and many of them love playing the game.

But that’s not sufficient to completely assuage my qualms. Most players gain little financially from their NFL careers and many come from backgrounds where this is their only to chance for riches, so if they choose the sport freely, that freedom is sharply constrained and they barely benefit.

And the intent of the participants is only one factor for a fan. Do you watch violent activity for fun? I don’t. I hate violent scenes in shows and usually avert my eyes. The violence and the injuries are one of the worst things about this very exciting sport.

So I love the Giants and following them is part of who I am, but the NFL needs to gradually move towards a less violent general level of play. They are doing so but need to keep working at it.
Definitely  
exiled : 9/30/2022 1:11 pm : link
I have some significant cognitive dissonance about the injuries.

Playing football  
Aaroninma : 9/30/2022 1:11 pm : link
taught me the most life lessons that I have ever learned, and also made me the closest friendships Ill ever have. I don't think other sports can match it, because of the physical toll and contact.

I agree with what was said above, I dont think pre-high school contact football should really exist. I didnt play until 8th grade(its at the HS in my town), played flag football as a kid, and I was able to play throughout HS and into college.

THe one thing that does give me pause about my kids playing is the lack of quality coaching. There are a ton of meatheads out there. I think it's generally a safe game if coached properly
Playing football  
Aaroninma : 9/30/2022 1:13 pm : link
taught me the most life lessons that I have ever learned, and also made me the closest friendships Ill ever have. I don't think other sports can match it, because of the physical toll and contact.

I agree with what was said above, I dont think pre-high school contact football should really exist. I didnt play until 8th grade(its at the HS in my town), played flag football as a kid, and I was able to play throughout HS and into college.

THe one thing that does give me pause about my kids playing is the lack of quality coaching. There are a ton of meatheads out there. I think it's generally a safe game if coached properly
RE: not really  
Bubba : 9/30/2022 1:27 pm : link
In comment 15838826 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
There are a lot of very dangerous professions out there. Few of them offer millions in compensation. Are football players worse off than loggers? Coal miners? Commercial divers?


This. Plus the jobs created and massive revenue generated fosters millions in donations to worth while causes that would not have normally received them.
...  
christian : 9/30/2022 1:47 pm : link
Virtually all competitive sports have a risk to safety across a spectrum. Football isn't on the extreme end of the spectrum. Motorcycle racing, big wave surfing etc. are far more dangerous.

The issue with football is the revelation in the last two decades that the most dangerous risks are longterm, and the evidence is largely unseen and hard to detect (this applies to other sports of course).

I have no problem enjoying and watching dangerous sports, if all the participants and parties are operating in good faith and the information on the risks is freely and transparently shared. That's not always been the case with football.

I hope the NFL continues to evolve their policies and processes on how to limit and treat head injuries.
Qualm down and save all your energy for things you bitterly oppose.  
Marty in Albany : 9/30/2022 1:48 pm : link
;-)
not in pro football  
UConn4523 : 9/30/2022 1:54 pm : link
but I do have a problem with it for kids.
:  
Big Al : 9/30/2022 1:57 pm : link
Yes.
I think there are two types of qualms you can have:  
Kevin_in_Pgh : 9/30/2022 1:59 pm : link
- You can be fine with the game/NFL existing and having "volunteers" - but you may decide not to watch.

- That's different from saying people shouldn't be allowed to play the game.
Not really  
Sean : 9/30/2022 2:07 pm : link
Although I will say this, it annoys me when fans criticize the current NFL because it’s clear these changes are being done for safety reasons. I think there are fans who want to have it both ways: complain about the rule changes while being nostalgic about how the game used to be, but also criticizing the league for being unsafe.

I’m not a hockey fan, but why is that sport always free of criticism? There is hard contact in that sport and fighting to “self regulate” the game.
RE: My son played youth football and when the second concussion  
SirLoinOfBeef : 9/30/2022 2:08 pm : link
In comment 15838875 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
occurred, we pulled him out for good. Sure enough, he got another one a year or so later (mild) because he was still on the HS soccer team. My wife was kind of losing it and wanted to just keep him locked in his room for good.

I don't have any moral qualms about it though. He really enjoyed his times playing those sports (and I enjoyed watching him) but we ultimately didn't want to keep playing with fire so it wasn't that hard of a decision.

He's good at cross-country and golf now anyway...

:-)


Golf- Go with Golf!!!
At this point  
BlackLight : 9/30/2022 2:15 pm : link
my only moral issue with the game is if (and how) we encourage young kids to participate.

Grown men know the risks, and if they want to risk their bodies and brains for the chance to be wealthy and famous, that's for them to decide.

With kids and teenagers, it's a lot harder. Children have little-to-no capacity to understand (much less act in) their own best long-term interests. In fact, many adults appear not to know how to do this.
I wonder, if pro sports teams were owned by non profit charities  
HopePhil and Optimistic : 9/30/2022 2:32 pm : link
And the revenues went toward making the world a better place would it affect how you rooted for favorite team(s), or the league in general. I’d hate Dallas less if they were owned by the American Cancer Society.

And the same could go for legalized sports betting. State lotteries often support charitable causes like public education. Why not create a public sports book to compete with Draftkings, Fanduel etc to fund public causes?

Neither will ever happen but interesting to think about.
Do I have moral qualms with football?  
81_Great_Dane : 9/30/2022 2:40 pm : link
Yes, absolutely. I watch it anyway. I consider that a moral failing.
RE: I wonder, if pro sports teams were owned by non profit charities  
NoGainDayne : 9/30/2022 2:41 pm : link
In comment 15839004 HopePhil and Optimistic said:
Quote:
And the revenues went toward making the world a better place would it affect how you rooted for favorite team(s), or the league in general. I’d hate Dallas less if they were owned by the American Cancer Society.

And the same could go for legalized sports betting. State lotteries often support charitable causes like public education. Why not create a public sports book to compete with Draftkings, Fanduel etc to fund public causes?

Neither will ever happen but interesting to think about.


I'd definitely feel the same way as you!
None  
Spider43 : 9/30/2022 2:43 pm : link
Nobody's forcing them to play and they make good coin.

As Maximus Desimus Meridius once asked us...

Are you not entertained?!
RE: At this point  
NoGainDayne : 9/30/2022 2:45 pm : link
In comment 15838989 BlackLight said:
Quote:
my only moral issue with the game is if (and how) we encourage young kids to participate.

Grown men know the risks, and if they want to risk their bodies and brains for the chance to be wealthy and famous, that's for them to decide.

With kids and teenagers, it's a lot harder. Children have little-to-no capacity to understand (much less act in) their own best long-term interests. In fact, many adults appear not to know how to do this.


Yeah this is the crux of it for me though. A kid gets into the sport and they are good at it, especially if their parents see dollar signs. Are they really free to get out?

In Texas, I'm pretty sure they say something like football is religion. How many kids successful get out of the responsibilities of their religious parents when they are devout? There isn't even any financial reward in that.
Yes  
OlyWABigBlue : 9/30/2022 2:56 pm : link
If the players owned the league, ran the league and reaped its rewards, I would be less skeptical of the "voluntary" aspect of their choice and health decisions. I love the sport of football, but the mechanics behind the product are worthy of scrutiny.
RE: Qualm down and save all your energy for things you bitterly oppose.  
NoGainDayne : 9/30/2022 3:34 pm : link
In comment 15838965 Marty in Albany said:
Quote:
;-)



What are you, some kind of mental health professional? I'd like to see your qaulmifications!
......  
Route 9 : 9/30/2022 3:41 pm : link
Nope. Not at all.
RE: ......  
allstarjim : 9/30/2022 3:48 pm : link
In comment 15839077 Route 9 said:
Quote:
Nope. Not at all.


Same. Agree with arniefez and Greg from LI.
No  
Vinny from Danbury : 9/30/2022 3:54 pm : link
Not at all. Their choice.
Thanks to the OP for asking.  
Y.A. : 9/30/2022 3:58 pm : link
And thanks to our fellow BBI’ers here for the many thoughtful responses.

I definitely have moral qualms about it, for many of the same reasons I have about horse racing. Namely, that the health and safety of the performers all too often takes a back seat to the money to be made off of them.

I’ve largely, but not completely, disengaged myself from horse racing. In the NFL, it’s now pretty much just the Giants and the playoffs. Not that I’m proud of that. Football is a guilty pleasure. But somehow I don’t register guilt when the NYG are playing—to say nothing of winning!

I also endorse the comments here about how it’s not necessarily an entirely free choice, especially for kids, especially those who don’t have other ways out of hardship lives.
RE: not really  
gidiefor : Mod : 9/30/2022 3:58 pm : link
In comment 15838826 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
There are a lot of very dangerous professions out there. Few of them offer millions in compensation. Are football players worse off than loggers? Coal miners? Commercial divers?


add Soldiers, Policemen, Firemen, Sewer workers, and Nurses to that list
RE: Do I have moral qualms with football?  
adamg : 9/30/2022 4:03 pm : link
In comment 15839013 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
Yes, absolutely. I watch it anyway. I consider that a moral failing.


I don't think it's a moral failing to watch the sport. If you watch a car wreck on the side of the road, it's not like you caused it to happen. I think buying tickets and jerseys or some kind of product is worse, but also not absolutely a moral failing. It depends on your character and how you watch the game imo. It's a lot of shades of gray as well.
No  
Professor Falken : 9/30/2022 4:05 pm : link
They choose to play and a lot players don't bother protecting themselves. Bills played the Rams a few weeks ago. Watching Jalen Ramsey cover Stefon Diggs and I noticed that neither one was wearing knee pads.
......  
Route 9 : 9/30/2022 4:23 pm : link
One job I wouldn't want is being a bank teller. Getting next to nothing to be around someone else's money 5 days a week. Fuck that.

I once went on a date with a girl who was actually the victim of a bank robbery a day or two prior to us meeting. Weird experience.
RE: ......  
UConn4523 : 9/30/2022 4:25 pm : link
In comment 15839137 Route 9 said:
Quote:
One job I wouldn't want is being a bank teller. Getting next to nothing to be around someone else's money 5 days a week. Fuck that.

I once went on a date with a girl who was actually the victim of a bank robbery a day or two prior to us meeting. Weird experience.


Were you worried she'd recognize you without the mask?
Pages: 1 2 | Show All |  Next>>
Back to the Corner