DJ also gets undeserved grief for many interceptions that are the result of the reciever having the ball bounce off his hands or running the wrong route and this week falling down.
Well, for starters, it depends which version of Eli. The 2011 version would probably find a way to make a few more plays. But yeah... from mid-2012 on, we saw exactly how he'd do. He was in very similar situations.
Pressure from the outside. Pressure from the inside. Very limited skill guys and running game.
Terrible. Pretty much agree 2012-till the end this was pretty common with a couple years that had better skill guys on the outside. Would have been sooner but that dynamite trio of 2011 gave him some options and the OL could still PB.
Once the last remnants of that good OL died so did the Giants offense. What a shame and ultimately disgrace.
than this one, and after Odell went down after 2 games, his best WR's were rookie Sterling Shepard, Roger Lewis, the immortal Tevarris Lewis, and Brandon Marshall with a giant fork in his back. Eli threw for 3,500 yards and 19 TD's, and everyone wanted to run him out on a rail.
Based on his current production, in a 16-game season, Jones will throw for less than 3,000 yards, 16 TD's, and 11 INT's, and many here want to sign him for 3-4 more years. It's a mystery to me.
than this one, and after Odell went down after 2 games, his best WR's were rookie Sterling Shepard, Roger Lewis, the immortal Tevarris Lewis, and Brandon Marshall with a giant fork in his back. Eli threw for 3,500 yards and 19 TD's, and everyone wanted to run him out on a rail.
Based on his current production, in a 16-game season, Jones will throw for less than 3,000 yards, 16 TD's, and 11 INT's, and many here want to sign him for 3-4 more years. It's a mystery to me.
In 2018, Eli threw for 4,300 yards, a number Jones has never come close to, with 24 TD's, and folks here were even more convinced he needed to go.
The idea that Jones could be mentioned in the same
breath as Eli is ridiculous. I think some posters need to be reminded of just how good Eli was when he had little other than Odell around him. 4,400 yds and 30 TD's in 2014, 4,400 yds and 35 TD's in 2015, and 4,100 yards and 26 TD's in 2016. Yet many of the same posters who defend Jones try to argue that most of Eli's stats came in garbage time.
To which I ask 2 questions - what can't Jones produce in garbage time, and why is it posters who criticize Jones are "haters", but it's totes cool to trash our 2-time SB winner and MVP?
than this one, and after Odell went down after 2 games, his best WR's were rookie Sterling Shepard, Roger Lewis, the immortal Tevarris Lewis, and Brandon Marshall with a giant fork in his back. Eli threw for 3,500 yards and 19 TD's, and everyone wanted to run him out on a rail.
Based on his current production, in a 16-game season, Jones will throw for less than 3,000 yards, 16 TD's, and 11 INT's, and many here want to sign him for 3-4 more years. It's a mystery to me.
______________________________
2017 OL may have been worse but that was McAdoo’s offense which required him to get the ball out fast with a lot of crossing patterns. Jones would probably be fine in that offense. No time to go to your second or third receiver. Pick out your first and second option presnap or throw it away.
___________________________________________________
RE: The idea that Jones could be mentioned in the same
breath as Eli is ridiculous. I think some posters need to be reminded of just how good Eli was when he had little other than Odell around him. 4,400 yds and 30 TD's in 2014, 4,400 yds and 35 TD's in 2015, and 4,100 yards and 26 TD's in 2016. Yet many of the same posters who defend Jones try to argue that most of Eli's stats came in garbage time.
To which I ask 2 questions - what can't Jones produce in garbage time, and why is it posters who criticize Jones are "haters", but it's totes cool to trash our 2-time SB winner and MVP?
Who is trashing Eli? You replied to yourself. To which I ask, how is it that the 2017 Oline is objectively worse? And you say Eli had little other than Odell...but he had Shepard in his prime...who is DJ's most reliable WR.
Unfortunately too many Giant fans have their mind made up and don’t want to consider all the crap DJ has had around him for 4 years. Well, Eli had pretty much the same crap from 2013-2018….how did he do?
To say, even think, you are not a great QB unless you play great even with crap all around you is just plain stupid. Eli was great but wasn’t great when surrounded by crap. You can go on and on to find other examples.
And this is why I stay neutral about DJ- I trust Schoen and Daboll know more about DJ than I do. What they decide will be fine with me.
than this one, and after Odell went down after 2 games, his best WR's were rookie Sterling Shepard, Roger Lewis, the immortal Tevarris Lewis, and Brandon Marshall with a giant fork in his back. Eli threw for 3,500 yards and 19 TD's, and everyone wanted to run him out on a rail.
Based on his current production, in a 16-game season, Jones will throw for less than 3,000 yards, 16 TD's, and 11 INT's, and many here want to sign him for 3-4 more years. It's a mystery to me.
______________________________
2017 OL may have been worse but that was McAdoo’s offense which required him to get the ball out fast with a lot of crossing patterns. Jones would probably be fine in that offense. No time to go to your second or third receiver. Pick out your first and second option presnap or throw it away.
___________________________________________________
Oh spare me, McAdoo's offense was utter garbage. Every DC in the league salivated over his constant 11 personnel packages with zero motion. McAdoo was successful as OC because TC forced him to make changes.
Baker Mayfield is no great QB, but he's not as bad as he looks right now running McAdoo's slop in Carolina.
Would have done a whole lot better. He is more intelligent, more decisive and a processed much faster. Also his play improved as the stakes intensified. End of games and end of season, came up big.
So yes, A Hall of Famed bound QB would do better.
Not a crazy or unreasonable take.
RE: RE: The idea that Jones could be mentioned in the same
Who is trashing Eli? You replied to yourself. To which I ask, how is it that the 2017 Oline is objectively worse? And you say Eli had little other than Odell...but he had Shepard in his prime...who is DJ's most reliable WR.
Not no this thread, but there have been any number of Jones' threads where his defenders have cut Eli down to try and make Jones look better.
And you can't be serious with this OL v 2017. AT is light years better than anyone on that line, and I would argue that, despite his struggles, Neal is too. Eli's left side was Erick Fucking Flowers and John Jerry. Double yuck. Hilapeo was a decent center, but he was playing RG, where he was brutal. Justin Pugh was a solid player, but he missed half the season. There is no comparison. That OL was as big a joke as any in recent NFL history.
you'd have to limit to comparison to what would Eli do circa 2003-2006 with this o-line?
You can't compare Jones with less than 4 years into the league to what Eli did in the mid-2010s when he was a 10 year vet!
The college game has changed profoundly since Eli played. QB's today are better equipped for the league and you had a couple important rule changes implemented.
Unfortunately too many Giant fans have their mind made up and don’t want to consider all the crap DJ has had around him for 4 years. Well, Eli had pretty much the same crap from 2013-2018….how did he do?
Significantly better than Jones has ever done. And wasn't an injury risk in the process.
and have a better red-zone efficiency rate. Not a huge amount more, but certainly more because he a Future Hall of Famer.
But always good to see posters trying to compare Jones to the likes of Rodgers, Wilson, Allen, and Eli one way or another. Whether it be to compare their early years, or size up the impact of a better supporting coast or even to suggest they don't always lead their team to a big win because they themselves struggled.
Yep, comparisons of (likely) future HOFers to Jones always seem to make for compelling threads...
No, it doesn't but it is a popular rationalization for the Dan Jones Rescue Squad.
And the comparison doesn't even hold up. From 2013 to 2018, Manning averaged 4000 yards and 24 td's a season, and missed all of one game. Jones hasn't come close. The DJRS should be embarrassed even floating this rationalization.
than this one, and after Odell went down after 2 games, his best WR's were rookie Sterling Shepard, Roger Lewis, the immortal Tevarris Lewis, and Brandon Marshall with a giant fork in his back. Eli threw for 3,500 yards and 19 TD's, and everyone wanted to run him out on a rail.
Based on his current production, in a 16-game season, Jones will throw for less than 3,000 yards, 16 TD's, and 11 INT's, and many here want to sign him for 3-4 more years. It's a mystery to me.
To compare DJ and Eli right now does not make a lot of sense. However, the actual numbers prove pretty much the opposite of your point. OBJ - who was top 2 or 3 receiver in the game at that point - played 4 games not 2. And if you take out his numbers Eli's numbers look almost the same as your DJ projection. The idea that any QB would have done significantly better than DJ with the crap show the Giants have fielded over the last five years is silly. Not Aaron Rodger or Mahomes or the GOAT would have gotten us more than a couple of extra wins. This doesn't mean DJ is the answer. It just means he has to be evaluated in context. And Eli had Evan Engrahm, who we all love to hate, but he had a lot of catches (and a lot of drops) that year. EE has substantially better separation than anyone on our current roster by a long shot.
than this one, and after Odell went down after 2 games, his best WR's were rookie Sterling Shepard, Roger Lewis, the immortal Tevarris Lewis, and Brandon Marshall with a giant fork in his back. Eli threw for 3,500 yards and 19 TD's, and everyone wanted to run him out on a rail.
Based on his current production, in a 16-game season, Jones will throw for less than 3,000 yards, 16 TD's, and 11 INT's, and many here want to sign him for 3-4 more years. It's a mystery to me.
To compare DJ and Eli right now does not make a lot of sense. However, the actual numbers prove pretty much the opposite of your point. OBJ - who was top 2 or 3 receiver in the game at that point - played 4 games not 2. And if you take out his numbers Eli's numbers look almost the same as your DJ projection. The idea that any QB would have done significantly better than DJ with the crap show the Giants have fielded over the last five years is silly. Not Aaron Rodger or Mahomes or the GOAT would have gotten us more than a couple of extra wins. This doesn't mean DJ is the answer. It just means he has to be evaluated in context. And Eli had Evan Engrahm, who we all love to hate, but he had a lot of catches (and a lot of drops) that year. EE has substantially better separation than anyone on our current roster by a long shot.
You can't just take out OBJ's numbers, you still have to substitute them with something approximating a receiver that would be somewhere below league average (but not zero).
Replacement value is never zero except in sports where the team literally has to play without ANY player in place of the missing player.
and have a better red-zone efficiency rate. Not a huge amount more, but certainly more because he a Future Hall of Famer.
But always good to see posters trying to compare Jones to the likes of Rodgers, Wilson, Allen, and Eli one way or another. Whether it be to compare their early years, or size up the impact of a better supporting coast or even to suggest they don't always lead their team to a big win because they themselves struggled.
Yep, comparisons of (likely) future HOFers to Jones always seem to make for compelling threads...
The good Eli much, much, much greater than Jones. The bad Eli would've failed.
than this one, and after Odell went down after 2 games, his best WR's were rookie Sterling Shepard, Roger Lewis, the immortal Tevarris Lewis, and Brandon Marshall with a giant fork in his back. Eli threw for 3,500 yards and 19 TD's, and everyone wanted to run him out on a rail.
Based on his current production, in a 16-game season, Jones will throw for less than 3,000 yards, 16 TD's, and 11 INT's, and many here want to sign him for 3-4 more years. It's a mystery to me.
To compare DJ and Eli right now does not make a lot of sense. However, the actual numbers prove pretty much the opposite of your point. OBJ - who was top 2 or 3 receiver in the game at that point - played 4 games not 2. And if you take out his numbers Eli's numbers look almost the same as your DJ projection. The idea that any QB would have done significantly better than DJ with the crap show the Giants have fielded over the last five years is silly. Not Aaron Rodger or Mahomes or the GOAT would have gotten us more than a couple of extra wins. This doesn't mean DJ is the answer. It just means he has to be evaluated in context. And Eli had Evan Engrahm, who we all love to hate, but he had a lot of catches (and a lot of drops) that year. EE has substantially better separation than anyone on our current roster by a long shot.
You can’t just subtract Odell’s stats as if Eli would have no one else to throw to. Jesus Christ you people are ridiculous.
At no point from 2011 on did Eli have a running game like the Giants have displayed with Barkley thus far this year. Even Barkley's rookie year was inconsistent, reliant heavily on one or two big runs a game.
Second, one of Eli's strengths is ore-snap reads, which is a weak ess of Jones. Another is ability to read the coverage. Another is the ability to change the play at the LOS, direct the blocking, etc. While I don't think this would be a great team with Eli, I do think he would have moderate success by putting the team in position to make plays. I think, for example, Bellinger would thrive with him.
At no point from 2011 on did Eli have a running game like the Giants have displayed with Barkley thus far this year. Even Barkley's rookie year was inconsistent, reliant heavily on one or two big runs a game.
Second, one of Eli's strengths is ore-snap reads, which is a weak ess of Jones. Another is ability to read the coverage. Another is the ability to change the play at the LOS, direct the blocking, etc. While I don't think this would be a great team with Eli, I do think he would have moderate success by putting the team in position to make plays. I think, for example, Bellinger would thrive with him.
Remember how good Eli made Larry Donnell look in 2014? Eli really elevated the guys around him.
Was going to say the exact same thing
and chuck.
That's sorta what he looked like for large segments of his last few years.
Terrible. Pretty much agree 2012-till the end this was pretty common with a couple years that had better skill guys on the outside. Would have been sooner but that dynamite trio of 2011 gave him some options and the OL could still PB.
Once the last remnants of that good OL died so did the Giants offense. What a shame and ultimately disgrace.
Based on his current production, in a 16-game season, Jones will throw for less than 3,000 yards, 16 TD's, and 11 INT's, and many here want to sign him for 3-4 more years. It's a mystery to me.
Based on his current production, in a 16-game season, Jones will throw for less than 3,000 yards, 16 TD's, and 11 INT's, and many here want to sign him for 3-4 more years. It's a mystery to me.
In 2018, Eli threw for 4,300 yards, a number Jones has never come close to, with 24 TD's, and folks here were even more convinced he needed to go.
To which I ask 2 questions - what can't Jones produce in garbage time, and why is it posters who criticize Jones are "haters", but it's totes cool to trash our 2-time SB winner and MVP?
Based on his current production, in a 16-game season, Jones will throw for less than 3,000 yards, 16 TD's, and 11 INT's, and many here want to sign him for 3-4 more years. It's a mystery to me.
2017 OL may have been worse but that was McAdoo’s offense which required him to get the ball out fast with a lot of crossing patterns. Jones would probably be fine in that offense. No time to go to your second or third receiver. Pick out your first and second option presnap or throw it away.
___________________________________________________
To which I ask 2 questions - what can't Jones produce in garbage time, and why is it posters who criticize Jones are "haters", but it's totes cool to trash our 2-time SB winner and MVP?
Who is trashing Eli? You replied to yourself. To which I ask, how is it that the 2017 Oline is objectively worse? And you say Eli had little other than Odell...but he had Shepard in his prime...who is DJ's most reliable WR.
It’s a fair question.
Unfortunately too many Giant fans have their mind made up and don’t want to consider all the crap DJ has had around him for 4 years. Well, Eli had pretty much the same crap from 2013-2018….how did he do?
To say, even think, you are not a great QB unless you play great even with crap all around you is just plain stupid. Eli was great but wasn’t great when surrounded by crap. You can go on and on to find other examples.
And this is why I stay neutral about DJ- I trust Schoen and Daboll know more about DJ than I do. What they decide will be fine with me.
This is the only correct answer
Do you think it is any coincidence that WRs and Barkley had their best years with Eli?
Do you think it is any coincidence that WRs and Barkley had their best years with Eli?
Slayton looked better with DJ than Eli.
Quote:
than this one, and after Odell went down after 2 games, his best WR's were rookie Sterling Shepard, Roger Lewis, the immortal Tevarris Lewis, and Brandon Marshall with a giant fork in his back. Eli threw for 3,500 yards and 19 TD's, and everyone wanted to run him out on a rail.
Based on his current production, in a 16-game season, Jones will throw for less than 3,000 yards, 16 TD's, and 11 INT's, and many here want to sign him for 3-4 more years. It's a mystery to me.
______________________________
2017 OL may have been worse but that was McAdoo’s offense which required him to get the ball out fast with a lot of crossing patterns. Jones would probably be fine in that offense. No time to go to your second or third receiver. Pick out your first and second option presnap or throw it away.
___________________________________________________
Oh spare me, McAdoo's offense was utter garbage. Every DC in the league salivated over his constant 11 personnel packages with zero motion. McAdoo was successful as OC because TC forced him to make changes.
Baker Mayfield is no great QB, but he's not as bad as he looks right now running McAdoo's slop in Carolina.
So yes, A Hall of Famed bound QB would do better.
Not a crazy or unreasonable take.
Who is trashing Eli? You replied to yourself. To which I ask, how is it that the 2017 Oline is objectively worse? And you say Eli had little other than Odell...but he had Shepard in his prime...who is DJ's most reliable WR.
Not no this thread, but there have been any number of Jones' threads where his defenders have cut Eli down to try and make Jones look better.
And you can't be serious with this OL v 2017. AT is light years better than anyone on that line, and I would argue that, despite his struggles, Neal is too. Eli's left side was Erick Fucking Flowers and John Jerry. Double yuck. Hilapeo was a decent center, but he was playing RG, where he was brutal. Justin Pugh was a solid player, but he missed half the season. There is no comparison. That OL was as big a joke as any in recent NFL history.
Quote:
Eli would get to the line, change protection, change play, go through progressions and hit wide open guys that Jones misses.
Do you think it is any coincidence that WRs and Barkley had their best years with Eli?
Slayton looked better with DJ than Eli.
Slayton, who is buried on the depth chart? yeah right
You can't compare Jones with less than 4 years into the league to what Eli did in the mid-2010s when he was a 10 year vet!
Jones has never performed even above average. Why do people feel justified in comparing him to all-time greats?
He'd do worse than those guys, in any circumstances. That's the answer.
You can't compare Jones with less than 4 years into the league to what Eli did in the mid-2010s when he was a 10 year vet!
The college game has changed profoundly since Eli played. QB's today are better equipped for the league and you had a couple important rule changes implemented.
Funny how that keeps getting ignored. This isn’t a 2nd year QB, this is a 4th QB with a declined option.
Quote:
.
It’s a fair question.
Unfortunately too many Giant fans have their mind made up and don’t want to consider all the crap DJ has had around him for 4 years. Well, Eli had pretty much the same crap from 2013-2018….how did he do?
Significantly better than Jones has ever done. And wasn't an injury risk in the process.
They had a couple of top ten offenses and Eli was top ten in yards and TDs a few times in that period.
You can't compare Jones with less than 4 years into the league to what Eli did in the mid-2010s when he was a 10 year vet!
Why 2003-06? Let's do 4th year to 4th year. 2007 Eli won a ring. You think he wouldn't do better than Jones? That's the hill you want to die on?
he will never produce anything close to Eli.
But always good to see posters trying to compare Jones to the likes of Rodgers, Wilson, Allen, and Eli one way or another. Whether it be to compare their early years, or size up the impact of a better supporting coast or even to suggest they don't always lead their team to a big win because they themselves struggled.
Yep, comparisons of (likely) future HOFers to Jones always seem to make for compelling threads...
And the comparison doesn't even hold up. From 2013 to 2018, Manning averaged 4000 yards and 24 td's a season, and missed all of one game. Jones hasn't come close. The DJRS should be embarrassed even floating this rationalization.
Based on his current production, in a 16-game season, Jones will throw for less than 3,000 yards, 16 TD's, and 11 INT's, and many here want to sign him for 3-4 more years. It's a mystery to me.
To compare DJ and Eli right now does not make a lot of sense. However, the actual numbers prove pretty much the opposite of your point. OBJ - who was top 2 or 3 receiver in the game at that point - played 4 games not 2. And if you take out his numbers Eli's numbers look almost the same as your DJ projection. The idea that any QB would have done significantly better than DJ with the crap show the Giants have fielded over the last five years is silly. Not Aaron Rodger or Mahomes or the GOAT would have gotten us more than a couple of extra wins. This doesn't mean DJ is the answer. It just means he has to be evaluated in context. And Eli had Evan Engrahm, who we all love to hate, but he had a lot of catches (and a lot of drops) that year. EE has substantially better separation than anyone on our current roster by a long shot.
Quote:
than this one, and after Odell went down after 2 games, his best WR's were rookie Sterling Shepard, Roger Lewis, the immortal Tevarris Lewis, and Brandon Marshall with a giant fork in his back. Eli threw for 3,500 yards and 19 TD's, and everyone wanted to run him out on a rail.
Based on his current production, in a 16-game season, Jones will throw for less than 3,000 yards, 16 TD's, and 11 INT's, and many here want to sign him for 3-4 more years. It's a mystery to me.
To compare DJ and Eli right now does not make a lot of sense. However, the actual numbers prove pretty much the opposite of your point. OBJ - who was top 2 or 3 receiver in the game at that point - played 4 games not 2. And if you take out his numbers Eli's numbers look almost the same as your DJ projection. The idea that any QB would have done significantly better than DJ with the crap show the Giants have fielded over the last five years is silly. Not Aaron Rodger or Mahomes or the GOAT would have gotten us more than a couple of extra wins. This doesn't mean DJ is the answer. It just means he has to be evaluated in context. And Eli had Evan Engrahm, who we all love to hate, but he had a lot of catches (and a lot of drops) that year. EE has substantially better separation than anyone on our current roster by a long shot.
You can't just take out OBJ's numbers, you still have to substitute them with something approximating a receiver that would be somewhere below league average (but not zero).
Replacement value is never zero except in sports where the team literally has to play without ANY player in place of the missing player.
Quote:
Jones' performance in previous seasons ...
Funny how that keeps getting ignored. This isn’t a 2nd year QB, this is a 4th QB with a declined option.
Its not being ignored. Just thick-headed posters blasting Jones too dumb to realize other positions in football count too.
But always good to see posters trying to compare Jones to the likes of Rodgers, Wilson, Allen, and Eli one way or another. Whether it be to compare their early years, or size up the impact of a better supporting coast or even to suggest they don't always lead their team to a big win because they themselves struggled.
Yep, comparisons of (likely) future HOFers to Jones always seem to make for compelling threads...
The good Eli much, much, much greater than Jones. The bad Eli would've failed.
You can't compare Jones with less than 4 years into the league to what Eli did in the mid-2010s when he was a 10 year vet!
In his 3rd year as a starter, Eli won a SB. Stop with this nonsense.
And to the poster who was asking me for exam0es of posters trashing Eli, add this clown to the pile.
Quote:
than this one, and after Odell went down after 2 games, his best WR's were rookie Sterling Shepard, Roger Lewis, the immortal Tevarris Lewis, and Brandon Marshall with a giant fork in his back. Eli threw for 3,500 yards and 19 TD's, and everyone wanted to run him out on a rail.
Based on his current production, in a 16-game season, Jones will throw for less than 3,000 yards, 16 TD's, and 11 INT's, and many here want to sign him for 3-4 more years. It's a mystery to me.
To compare DJ and Eli right now does not make a lot of sense. However, the actual numbers prove pretty much the opposite of your point. OBJ - who was top 2 or 3 receiver in the game at that point - played 4 games not 2. And if you take out his numbers Eli's numbers look almost the same as your DJ projection. The idea that any QB would have done significantly better than DJ with the crap show the Giants have fielded over the last five years is silly. Not Aaron Rodger or Mahomes or the GOAT would have gotten us more than a couple of extra wins. This doesn't mean DJ is the answer. It just means he has to be evaluated in context. And Eli had Evan Engrahm, who we all love to hate, but he had a lot of catches (and a lot of drops) that year. EE has substantially better separation than anyone on our current roster by a long shot.
You can’t just subtract Odell’s stats as if Eli would have no one else to throw to. Jesus Christ you people are ridiculous.
Second, one of Eli's strengths is ore-snap reads, which is a weak ess of Jones. Another is ability to read the coverage. Another is the ability to change the play at the LOS, direct the blocking, etc. While I don't think this would be a great team with Eli, I do think he would have moderate success by putting the team in position to make plays. I think, for example, Bellinger would thrive with him.
Second, one of Eli's strengths is ore-snap reads, which is a weak ess of Jones. Another is ability to read the coverage. Another is the ability to change the play at the LOS, direct the blocking, etc. While I don't think this would be a great team with Eli, I do think he would have moderate success by putting the team in position to make plays. I think, for example, Bellinger would thrive with him.
Remember how good Eli made Larry Donnell look in 2014? Eli really elevated the guys around him.
Worse than that. There are several receivers from that era that are miles from anyone they have now.