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Peter King goes THERE with LT & Aaron Donald...

SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/3/2022 7:20 pm
King argues Donald is better than LT.

I think King is wrong & that's not a shot @ Donald; he's an all timer, but LT...he is in another class IMO. He changed the game. Donald didn't.
Link - ( New Window )
Peter king is no longer relevant  
DefenseWins : 10/3/2022 7:23 pm : link
So he is going to put this shit out there so someone will actually read what he writes.

If he retired 10 years ago, nobody would know.
You're not going to find any Giants fan  
Producer : 10/3/2022 7:23 pm : link
that will countenance any defender being compared to LT. Donald is great though. Easily a top-5 all time defender. He deserves a lot of credit.
There is an argument  
RasputinPrime : 10/3/2022 7:24 pm : link
I believe it fails when measured, but there is an argument. Same with Reggie.
LT and Donald play different positions;  
Angel Eyes : 10/3/2022 7:25 pm : link
LT's a rushbacker, Aaron Donald a defensive tackle. King would be better comparing Donald to Alan Page, perhaps the best pass-rushing defensive tackle of all time.
RE: LT and Donald play different positions;  
Blue21 : 10/3/2022 7:28 pm : link
In comment 15844883 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
LT's a rushbacker, Aaron Donald a defensive tackle. King would be better comparing Donald to Alan Page, perhaps the best pass-rushing defensive tackle of all time.
Agree
RE: Peter king is no longer relevant  
Optimus-NY : 10/3/2022 7:30 pm : link
In comment 15844879 DefenseWins said:
Quote:
So he is going to put this shit out there so someone will actually read what he writes.

If he retired 10 years ago, nobody would know.


This. How's his daughter's softball team?
Not the First to Say That  
Samiam : 10/3/2022 7:30 pm : link
I think Aikman said something like that. As a Giants fan who saw every game Taylor played, I don’t think anyone comes close to LT. The only question I have is that by today’s rules, LT would,be penalized for lots of plays or worse. Donald is playing by a different set of rules especially regarding hitting the QB.
RE: You're not going to find any Giants fan  
section125 : 10/3/2022 7:30 pm : link
In comment 15844880 Producer said:
Quote:
that will countenance any defender being compared to LT. Donald is great though. Easily a top-5 all time defender. He deserves a lot of credit.


No he is not a top 5 defender all time. He is outstanding, yes. Top 10, close

LT, Joe Green, Bruce Smith, Ray Lewis, Reggie White, Deacon Jones....


RE: Not the First to Say That  
section125 : 10/3/2022 7:31 pm : link
In comment 15844892 Samiam said:
Quote:
I think Aikman said something like that. As a Giants fan who saw every game Taylor played, I don’t think anyone comes close to LT. The only question I have is that by today’s rules, LT would,be penalized for lots of plays or worse. Donald is playing by a different set of rules especially regarding hitting the QB.


He would have easily adapted...
the position distinction is an important one  
BillKo : 10/3/2022 7:32 pm : link
As a fan, you could literally see LT lining up and preparing to bring it or back off.

I just remember a George Young quote about LT. "You could take someone who knew nothing about football, watch the Giants defense for 5 minutes and they'd immediately know Taylor was the best player on the field" (paraphrasing).
RE: RE: Not the First to Say That  
BillKo : 10/3/2022 7:33 pm : link
In comment 15844894 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15844892 Samiam said:


Quote:


I think Aikman said something like that. As a Giants fan who saw every game Taylor played, I don’t think anyone comes close to LT. The only question I have is that by today’s rules, LT would,be penalized for lots of plays or worse. Donald is playing by a different set of rules especially regarding hitting the QB.



He would have easily adapted...


And LT, even for his time period, was a pretty clean player who was text book on tackling.
Bill Belichick scoffed at the notion  
Larry in Pencilvania : 10/3/2022 7:35 pm : link
I think one of if not the GOAT of defensive coordinators and head coaches says LT is the greatest then it's good enough for me. LT changed the game, Donald is awesome but he didn't have the affect that LT had
RE: There is an argument  
Eman11 : 10/3/2022 7:37 pm : link
In comment 15844882 RasputinPrime said:
Quote:
I believe it fails when measured, but there is an argument. Same with Reggie.


Ummm, no there’s not. It’s a discussion for some but by no means is there an actual argument comparing LT to any defender ever.

He’s on another level entirely and I think the only argument would be for the guys rated below him. Personally I’d put Donald just outside the top 5.
Peter King has always been a blowhard dolt  
Greg from LI : 10/3/2022 7:40 pm : link
.
RE: You're not going to find any Giants fan  
bw in dc : 10/3/2022 7:44 pm : link
In comment 15844880 Producer said:
Quote:
that will countenance any defender being compared to LT. Donald is great though. Easily a top-5 all time defender. He deserves a lot of credit.


Donald is great, but personally I've seen better defensive players in my lifetime: LT, White, Lott, Reed, and Woodson. And maybe even Sanders and Darrell Greene.

I never saw Deacon Jones, Blount, Butkus, Greene, Lambert, Page, Olson, etc.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/3/2022 7:45 pm : link
bw in dc, White has the best argument vs. LT IMO.
I'd take him in  
section125 : 10/3/2022 7:47 pm : link
a heartbeat....
Stupid take  
Stan in LA : 10/3/2022 7:47 pm : link
John Jerry eat Donald's lunch every time they played.

'nuff said
Might be time for Pete to hang em up  
ghost718 : 10/3/2022 7:49 pm : link
.
RE: RE: You're not going to find any Giants fan  
Producer : 10/3/2022 7:49 pm : link
In comment 15844893 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15844880 Producer said:


Quote:


that will countenance any defender being compared to LT. Donald is great though. Easily a top-5 all time defender. He deserves a lot of credit.



No he is not a top 5 defender all time. He is outstanding, yes. Top 10, close

LT, Joe Green, Bruce Smith, Ray Lewis, Reggie White, Deacon Jones....



I saw all of those guys though just very little of Deacon Jones (though many highlights) Donald is in the conversation. Plus Donald plays a much tougher position in which to accumulate sacks, and he plays in an era where the players are much bigger, stronger and faster.
I don't think he's even better than Reggie White  
Matt M. : 10/3/2022 7:50 pm : link
let alone LT. That's just a call for attention and forcing discussion.
Many of you don't seem to understand  
Producer : 10/3/2022 7:51 pm : link
how dominant Donald is at a position that is almost impossible to dominate from. He is certainly in the top-5 conversation.
.  
Banks : 10/3/2022 7:51 pm : link
I love Donald, but I'd take prime JJ Watt over him. LT is quite a leap
Yeah...  
trueblueinpw : 10/3/2022 7:52 pm : link
No.
RE: .  
Producer : 10/3/2022 7:53 pm : link
In comment 15844935 Banks said:
Quote:
I love Donald, but I'd take prime JJ Watt over him. LT is quite a leap


It's all prime with Donald. Another reason he is so much better than Watt.
RE: ...  
bw in dc : 10/3/2022 7:56 pm : link
In comment 15844923 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
bw in dc, White has the best argument vs. LT IMO.


Probably right. And White spent his first two years in the USFL, which impacted his totals.

It's sad Jerome Brown died because he was another DT monster. Only 27 and right in the thick of his prime.
RE: RE: RE: Not the First to Say That  
speedywheels : 10/3/2022 7:58 pm : link
In comment 15844897 BillKo said:
Quote:



And LT, even for his time period, was a pretty clean player who was text book on tackling.


Tackling in the field of play, yes. But some of his sacks/QB hits (ie, late hits by today's standards) were not.

And I'm not so sure he would adapt well...
Recency bias  
adamg : 10/3/2022 8:00 pm : link
People love the newest shiniest thing.
RE: Not the First to Say That  
bmgints : 10/3/2022 8:01 pm : link
In comment 15844892 Samiam said:
Quote:
I think Aikman said something like that. As a Giants fan who saw every game Taylor played, I don’t think anyone comes close to LT. The only question I have is that by today’s rules, LT would,be penalized for lots of plays or worse. Donald is playing by a different set of rules especially regarding hitting the QB.


True there are different set of rules about hitting QBs there’s also about twice as much passing. It’s unclear how that might affect his ability to sack the QB.
Sometimes old people  
pjcas18 : 10/3/2022 8:02 pm : link
who at one time had a relevant opinion feel the need to say something outrageous to see their names once again "in lights".

it's like almost any time Peter Gammons offers an opinion on anything the past decade.

Donald has had a incredible career  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/3/2022 8:02 pm : link
but it is also a different time. Imagine LT playing in these passing times with these OL's?

Bill Walsh made left tackle a high priority after dealing with LT his rookie year. This led to every team making left tackle a high priority. Every team was then looking for the next LT after the '81 season. On top of it Joe Gibbs had to start sleeping in his office even more and ultimately he came up with another plan to stop LT. All that effort and LT was still LT.

Or you can listen to the poster who mentioned BB or Angel eyes and his thoughts.



Aaron Donald has been excellent since he walked onto  
Jimmy Googs : 10/3/2022 8:05 pm : link
the NFL scene near a decade ago. Accomplished everything and more that an NFL player could possibly do.

And LT was still better...



RE: Sometimes old people  
Producer : 10/3/2022 8:06 pm : link
In comment 15844954 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
who at one time had a relevant opinion feel the need to say something outrageous to see their names once again "in lights".

it's like almost any time Peter Gammons offers an opinion on anything the past decade.


It's not outrageous. Donald is fucking phenomenal. I think LT is greater. But eventually I think Donald will be remembered as #2 when he retires. It's an incredible weapon to have that much pressure from one guy in the middle. If the Giants had him 07 to 11 we would have won one or two more Super Bowls.
I don’t see coaches creating a new position on offense  
steve in ky : 10/3/2022 8:11 pm : link
in an attempt to slow Donald down.
Donald is a bit overrated  
NY-Fan : 10/3/2022 8:13 pm : link
He is a great player but to me is not better then LT, White or even Smith. The current shinny new thing always comes off better at the moment but lets be real. I know that Madden, Parcells, Gibbs, BB and others have said LT is the best defensive player they have ever seen and some will say the best player they have ever seen.
RE: RE: Sometimes old people  
pjcas18 : 10/3/2022 8:14 pm : link
In comment 15844964 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15844954 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


who at one time had a relevant opinion feel the need to say something outrageous to see their names once again "in lights".

it's like almost any time Peter Gammons offers an opinion on anything the past decade.




It's not outrageous. Donald is fucking phenomenal. I think LT is greater. But eventually I think Donald will be remembered as #2 when he retires. It's an incredible weapon to have that much pressure from one guy in the middle. If the Giants had him 07 to 11 we would have won one or two more Super Bowls.


You're in your 30's right and your exposure to LT was through videos or word of mouth?

For people who lived it, saying Donald is better than LT is outrageous. And it's not a slight or insult to Donald.

Donald is the best ever at his position  
eli4life : 10/3/2022 8:17 pm : link
LT was the best defensive player period
RE: RE: Sometimes old people  
section125 : 10/3/2022 8:17 pm : link
In comment 15844964 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15844954 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


who at one time had a relevant opinion feel the need to say something outrageous to see their names once again "in lights".

it's like almost any time Peter Gammons offers an opinion on anything the past decade.




It's not outrageous. Donald is fucking phenomenal. I think LT is greater. But eventually I think Donald will be remembered as #2 when he retires. It's an incredible weapon to have that much pressure from one guy in the middle. If the Giants had him 07 to 11 we would have won one or two more Super Bowls.


Look, great player. He is not even the best DT/DL of all time.
RE: Donald is a bit overrated  
eli4life : 10/3/2022 8:22 pm : link
In comment 15844973 NY-Fan said:
Quote:
He is a great player but to me is not better then LT, White or even Smith. The current shinny new thing always comes off better at the moment but lets be real. I know that Madden, Parcells, Gibbs, BB and others have said LT is the best defensive player they have ever seen and some will say the best player they have ever seen.


Overrated ?? Seriously?? He isn’t better than LT not even close but to call him overrated is just asinine
RE: RE: RE: Sometimes old people  
Producer : 10/3/2022 8:34 pm : link
In comment 15844977 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 15844964 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15844954 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


who at one time had a relevant opinion feel the need to say something outrageous to see their names once again "in lights".

it's like almost any time Peter Gammons offers an opinion on anything the past decade.




It's not outrageous. Donald is fucking phenomenal. I think LT is greater. But eventually I think Donald will be remembered as #2 when he retires. It's an incredible weapon to have that much pressure from one guy in the middle. If the Giants had him 07 to 11 we would have won one or two more Super Bowls.



You're in your 30's right and your exposure to LT was through videos or word of mouth?

For people who lived it, saying Donald is better than LT is outrageous. And it's not a slight or insult to Donald.


No I'm 57 and have watched NFL since 1973.
RE: RE: RE: Sometimes old people  
Producer : 10/3/2022 8:36 pm : link
In comment 15844981 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15844964 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15844954 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


who at one time had a relevant opinion feel the need to say something outrageous to see their names once again "in lights".

it's like almost any time Peter Gammons offers an opinion on anything the past decade.




It's not outrageous. Donald is fucking phenomenal. I think LT is greater. But eventually I think Donald will be remembered as #2 when he retires. It's an incredible weapon to have that much pressure from one guy in the middle. If the Giants had him 07 to 11 we would have won one or two more Super Bowls.



Look, great player. He is not even the best DT/DL of all time.


Yea he is. You sound like you don't watch football. He dominates a very difficult era to dominate. He has the most sacks over the last decade. And he plays DT.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Sometimes old people  
section125 : 10/3/2022 8:39 pm : link
In comment 15845013 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15844981 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 15844964 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15844954 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


who at one time had a relevant opinion feel the need to say something outrageous to see their names once again "in lights".

it's like almost any time Peter Gammons offers an opinion on anything the past decade.




It's not outrageous. Donald is fucking phenomenal. I think LT is greater. But eventually I think Donald will be remembered as #2 when he retires. It's an incredible weapon to have that much pressure from one guy in the middle. If the Giants had him 07 to 11 we would have won one or two more Super Bowls.



Look, great player. He is not even the best DT/DL of all time.



Yea he is. You sound like you don't watch football. He dominates a very difficult era to dominate. He has the most sacks over the last decade. And he plays DT.


He is not better than Joe Greene, Deacon Jones, Reggie White and maybe Bob Lilly and Merlin Olsen, to name a few.

He is excellent, not the best.
Gun to my head I don’t know if he’s better than  
steve in ky : 10/3/2022 8:42 pm : link
Page, Olsen, or Greene. He’s great and among them as part of that elite group but those guys were awesome as well. It’s just so many years ago since they played their dominance diminishes in people’s minds
If Donald played in the 70s  
Producer : 10/3/2022 8:45 pm : link
When the average OL was 255 pounds, he would be viewed as the greatest player of all time.
Jones and White were more of D ends but Jones is only second to LT as  
steve in ky : 10/3/2022 8:45 pm : link
Defender IMHO
In my mind it's LT then White then Ray Lewis then Aaron Donald  
Ira : 10/3/2022 8:46 pm : link
.
RE: If Donald played in the 70s  
steve in ky : 10/3/2022 8:49 pm : link
In comment 15845029 Producer said:
Quote:
When the average OL was 255 pounds, he would be viewed as the greatest player of all time.


You can only judge athletes based on how they dominate when they played, it’s pointless and irrelevant to guess what someone might have done.
RE: If Donald played in the 70s  
BillKo : 10/3/2022 8:53 pm : link
In comment 15845029 Producer said:
Quote:
When the average OL was 255 pounds, he would be viewed as the greatest player of all time.


I'm not sure I get this? Another transport in the time machine? LOL

If he played in the era when everyone was 255 lbs, Donald would still be great because everything would still be relative including the training/technique/etc. But that wouldn't automatically make him the best.
Lot of people  
Sammo85 : 10/3/2022 9:00 pm : link
just start watching football last 5 years? Sure sounds like it reading this thread.
the other thing with LT was...  
BillKo : 10/3/2022 9:02 pm : link
..and this is somewhat subjective is that he had this aura about him.

LT was just different in the way he played. Even the chop on QBs....that never was a thing until LT.

I don't sense that with Donald, but again, that has to do with the positions they play.
RE: RE: If Donald played in the 70s  
steve in ky : 10/3/2022 9:03 pm : link
In comment 15845043 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 15845029 Producer said:


Quote:


When the average OL was 255 pounds, he would be viewed as the greatest player of all time.



I'm not sure I get this? Another transport in the time machine? LOL

If he played in the era when everyone was 255 lbs, Donald would still be great because everything would still be relative including the training/technique/etc. But that wouldn't automatically make him the best.


Yeah one could just as easily make the argument that prior to so much expansion the level of competition that a player had to regularly face was much stiffer because of so many fewer teams diluting the talent pool.

Just judge each player in their own time.
There is zero argument  
jvm52106 : 10/3/2022 9:04 pm : link
Here, Donald isn't anywhere near LT as a defender or impact player. It's not even close..
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Sometimes old people  
Eman11 : 10/3/2022 9:05 pm : link
In comment 15845020 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15845013 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15844981 section125 said
He is not better than Joe Greene, Deacon Jones, Reggie White and maybe Bob Lilly and Merlin Olsen, to name a few.

He is excellent, not the best.


I agree with you.

Donald is the best of his era at his position and in the conversation for one of the best ever at his position.

LT however, is the best Defensive player ever at any position in any and every era, and Peter King is either looking for clicks, trolling, or lost his mind.,
RE: .  
JB_in_DC : 10/3/2022 9:08 pm : link
In comment 15844935 Banks said:
Quote:
I love Donald, but I'd take prime JJ Watt over him. LT is quite a leap


Shame about Watt getting injury prone. Unbelievable production from 2012-2015. Donald has been so consistent but to me I agree Watt was more impactful at his peak.

RE: RE: RE: If Donald played in the 70s  
section125 : 10/3/2022 9:19 pm : link
In comment 15845056 steve in ky said:
Quote:
In comment 15845043 BillKo said:


Quote:


In comment 15845029 Producer said:


Quote:


When the average OL was 255 pounds, he would be viewed as the greatest player of all time.



I'm not sure I get this? Another transport in the time machine? LOL

If he played in the era when everyone was 255 lbs, Donald would still be great because everything would still be relative including the training/technique/etc. But that wouldn't automatically make him the best.



Yeah one could just as easily make the argument that prior to so much expansion the level of competition that a player had to regularly face was much stiffer because of so many fewer teams diluting the talent pool.

Just judge each player in their own time.


I have a friend who was drafted by the Saints. His was 6'4" and 255/260 lbs. He left after 1 year as he said he was too small. His college roommate was an All Pro LT for several seasons. I asked what weight he played at and he said 325/330 and this was late 70s thru the 80s.
So the boys back then were not quite as small as people think. Not sure they were all as strong as today, but they were still big.
RE: I don't think he's even better than Reggie White  
islander1 : 10/3/2022 9:20 pm : link
In comment 15844931 Matt M. said:
Quote:
let alone LT. That's just a call for attention and forcing discussion.


I am not sure I'd go that far.

I'm certainly old enough to watch the LT/White days, and I think the Donald/Reggie comparison isn't really off.

The longevity is in White's favor.
Parsons  
GMen72 : 10/3/2022 9:22 pm : link
Is a better comparison to LT than Donald. Parsons is the 1st player I've watched that looks anything like LT on a football field...maybe Derreck Thomas.
RE: Parsons  
section125 : 10/3/2022 9:25 pm : link
In comment 15845091 GMen72 said:
Quote:
Is a better comparison to LT than Donald. Parsons is the 1st player I've watched that looks anything like LT on a football field...maybe Derreck Thomas.


D Thomas was a lesser LT. Parsons is not D Thomas, yet. So far he is outstanding....
I may get killed for this  
Sy'56 : 10/3/2022 9:32 pm : link
But Donald is approaching LT territory - if not already there.
John Turney, who does research on defensive stats pre-1982,  
Angel Eyes : 10/3/2022 9:34 pm : link
has a number of lists on Pro Football Journal of the best NFL players at various positions (for the front seven this goes from the 1950s onward after the advent of the 4-3). Reggie White for example is the top 4-3 DE in his listing (noses out Deacon Jones for a longer prime); Strahan is No.5 on his list. Bruce Smith is the top 3-4 DE. Bob Lilly is the top 4-3 DT (Aaron Donald is No. 8 at this writing, some four years ago). LT is the top 3-4 rushbacker (which also explains where I get the term). He also places a distinction between 4-3 OLBs and 3-4 OLBs, which seems to fall along the lines of coverage responsibilities (and why Jack Ham and LT aren't on the same list).
The Top 4-3 Ends In NFL History - ( New Window )
RE: I may get killed for this  
section125 : 10/3/2022 9:34 pm : link
In comment 15845104 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
But Donald is approaching LT territory - if not already there.


??? Might be the first time I have absolutely disagreed with you and it is not close.
For Some reason I am having a hard time comparing  
AG5686 : 10/3/2022 9:40 pm : link
Defensive players from different era and different positions
Most of the players listed on this thread I saw play....
Joe Greene was a 2 time Defensive player of the year and won 4 Super Bowls
So Aaron Donald has that to go up against as a DT/DL
My gut says he is between 5-10 all time
But I can honestly say some of it is recency bias..
That said I just watched the man single handedly blow up a running play in front of my very eyes so....
What he did at the end of last years super bowl was incredible
He is ahead of Olson and Deacon
Better than Ray Lewis
Reggie White was equally unblockable in his prime
How to compare Donald to Lott or Deion???
LT is well LfuckingTee
Sheesh Lott has 4 rings folks
Very very difficult to compare
RE: I may get killed for this  
AG5686 : 10/3/2022 9:43 pm : link
In comment 15845104 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
But Donald is approaching LT territory - if not already there.

Thats it...I'm never listening to another word you say Sy
When u posting your Bears Giants game review????
Lmaoooooo
We all appreciate your sharing the wisdom man!!!
Thanks so much
RE: I may get killed for this  
Producer : 10/3/2022 9:45 pm : link
In comment 15845104 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
But Donald is approaching LT territory - if not already there.


I like LT better but it is much, much, closer than many on this board realize.
RE: For Some reason I am having a hard time comparing  
section125 : 10/3/2022 9:47 pm : link
In comment 15845115 AG5686 said:
Quote:
Defensive players from different era and different positions
Most of the players listed on this thread I saw play....
Joe Greene was a 2 time Defensive player of the year and won 4 Super Bowls
So Aaron Donald has that to go up against as a DT/DL
My gut says he is between 5-10 all time
But I can honestly say some of it is recency bias..
That said I just watched the man single handedly blow up a running play in front of my very eyes so....
What he did at the end of last years super bowl was incredible
He is ahead of Olson and Deacon
Better than Ray Lewis
Reggie White was equally unblockable in his prime
How to compare Donald to Lott or Deion???
LT is well LfuckingTee
Sheesh Lott has 4 rings folks
Very very difficult to compare


Not sure he is better than Ray Lewis.

Yet, we are discussing a totally great player in Aaron Donald, and I mean no disrespect to him. He most likely is the best defensive player in the NFL the last decade. A few have had better single years - Watt, Bosa for example, but he is consistently the top 1, 2, 3 defender every year.
It’s really not  
bwitz : 10/3/2022 9:48 pm : link
Donald is great, no doubt. He’s never been as feared as LT or even on the level LT was.
RE: John Turney, who does research on defensive stats pre-1982,  
AG5686 : 10/3/2022 9:48 pm : link
In comment 15845109 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
has a number of lists on Pro Football Journal of the best NFL players at various positions (for the front seven this goes from the 1950s onward after the advent of the 4-3). Reggie White for example is the top 4-3 DE in his listing (noses out Deacon Jones for a longer prime); Strahan is No.5 on his list. Bruce Smith is the top 3-4 DE. Bob Lilly is the top 4-3 DT (Aaron Donald is No. 8 at this writing, some four years ago). LT is the top 3-4 rushbacker (which also explains where I get the term). He also places a distinction between 4-3 OLBs and 3-4 OLBs, which seems to fall along the lines of coverage responsibilities (and why Jack Ham and LT aren't on the same list). The Top 4-3 Ends In NFL History - ( New Window )

Very cool stuff thanks
If I understand correctly Joe Green would be on the other list...I have him ranked at or near the top
It is OK to disagree guys  
Sy'56 : 10/3/2022 9:49 pm : link
There is no clear answer here

The fun part is that there can be a discussion here. What Donald is doing from inside (much less space to work with) simply has never been done. That is why I bring him into the LT tier. Is he right there with him right now? Gun to my head says no - we need to see him do this another year or two. But he is getting double/triple teamed as much as anyone ever has. He impacts the running game as well as LT did. Production vs pass is in the same boat. Teams are trying to create pressure the way Donald does. He is changing the way some defenses are trying to rush the passer and that was always LT's stamp.

Changed the game  
bmgints : 10/3/2022 9:50 pm : link
Aaron Donald is incredible no doubt about it and is one of the top defensive players of all time but LT changed the way the game is played. There’s a reason left tackles are viewed the way they are today and why they get drafted so highly. That in large part started with LT. The league has not changed the drafting of interior o lineman due to Donald so purely on impact to the game LT is no comparison to Donald.
Lawrence Taylor re-defined the LBer position  
M.S. : 10/3/2022 9:57 pm : link

Aaron Donald did not re-define the DT position.

Aaron Donald may well be the greatest DT in the history of the NFL.

But Lawrence Taylor is the greatest defenseman ever.
for those of you who are swayed by the argument that  
Producer : 10/3/2022 9:57 pm : link
offenses had to change in response to LT, you ought to consider the following:

Yes, offenses changed the way they countered LT. The change was that in previous eras you could defend a rushing LB with a FB or TE. But LT could not be defended by those guys so you had to dedicate a lineman to cope with LT. But please consider that Donald is ALREADY having to contend with the biggest guys on the field. All they can do now is double team him, which they are doing. If there was something else they could change in response to him, they would do it.

RE: It is OK to disagree guys  
AG5686 : 10/3/2022 10:01 pm : link
In comment 15845129 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
There is no clear answer here

The fun part is that there can be a discussion here. What Donald is doing from inside (much less space to work with) simply has never been done. That is why I bring him into the LT tier. Is he right there with him right now? Gun to my head says no - we need to see him do this another year or two. But he is getting double/triple teamed as much as anyone ever has. He impacts the running game as well as LT did. Production vs pass is in the same boat. Teams are trying to create pressure the way Donald does. He is changing the way some defenses are trying to rush the passer and that was always LT's stamp.

I just watched Donald get triple teamed
He still got a hand on the running back
Again  
bwitz : 10/3/2022 10:02 pm : link
Very good player; going to be a first ballot HOF’er. But, if I’m starting a team, I’m taking LT over Donald every time.
He isnt. period...  
blueblood : 10/3/2022 10:09 pm : link
Ive SEEN both play.. Donald aint LT.. not even close. The ONLY player that I saw that was approaching that status was Derrick Thomas from KC RIP
When we have played the Rams  
Giantimistic : 10/3/2022 10:20 pm : link
I don't think I fear playing them. Opponents feared LT. I love the story of the QB taking a time out because he couldn't figure out where LT was on the field--he had actually subbed out.

Donald is great and does create trouble for offenses. I don't think he is feared like LT was.
When AD  
Joe Beckwith : 10/3/2022 10:34 pm : link
can play with an arm harnessed up and tackles a player with one arm, then I’ll consider the argument.
Til then, NO.
LT was a f ing heat seeking missle  
gtt350 : 10/3/2022 10:40 pm : link
much more than a rusher, his interceptions are all highlight reel material.
His fumble recovery against the 49ers game changing and clutch just like Donald's in the SB,
LT could almost play any position. Imagine him at TE.
Donald no
RE: RE: RE: Sometimes old people  
allstarjim : 10/3/2022 11:00 pm : link
In comment 15844981 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15844964 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15844954 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


who at one time had a relevant opinion feel the need to say something outrageous to see their names once again "in lights".

it's like almost any time Peter Gammons offers an opinion on anything the past decade.




It's not outrageous. Donald is fucking phenomenal. I think LT is greater. But eventually I think Donald will be remembered as #2 when he retires. It's an incredible weapon to have that much pressure from one guy in the middle. If the Giants had him 07 to 11 we would have won one or two more Super Bowls.



Look, great player. He is not even the best DT/DL of all time.


I'll preface this by saying I'm 46 yo. I saw LT and all the players inbetween. Reggie White remains the best DT of all time, IMO. That said, Donald is really close. If someone said he was the best I wouldn't mock that opinion.

LT remains the greatest defensive player ever.
RE: I may get killed for this  
allstarjim : 10/3/2022 11:08 pm : link
In comment 15845104 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
But Donald is approaching LT territory - if not already there.


I'm not mad at you, Sy. I think Donald is always going to be somewhat unappreciated here for his complete and consistent dominance during his career.

I am a true blue Giants' fan, but also a fan of football, as I know you are. Since he's been drafted, Donald is the freakiest defensive player I've seen in the NFL. He's certainly in the conversation in the smallest group of players of best all-time. A Hall of Gamer's Hall of Fame player.

I definitely have him over Ray Lewis.

I agree with the other poster that Parsons is the closest thing I've seen to this level of defensive dominance outside of Donald, White, LT, going back to the time I started watching football in the early-mid 80s.
RE: For Some reason I am having a hard time comparing  
allstarjim : 10/3/2022 11:17 pm : link
In comment 15845115 AG5686 said:
Quote:
Defensive players from different era and different positions
Most of the players listed on this thread I saw play....
Joe Greene was a 2 time Defensive player of the year and won 4 Super Bowls
So Aaron Donald has that to go up against as a DT/DL
My gut says he is between 5-10 all time
But I can honestly say some of it is recency bias..
That said I just watched the man single handedly blow up a running play in front of my very eyes so....
What he did at the end of last years super bowl was incredible
He is ahead of Olson and Deacon
Better than Ray Lewis
Reggie White was equally unblockable in his prime
How to compare Donald to Lott or Deion???
LT is well LfuckingTee
Sheesh Lott has 4 rings folks
Very very difficult to compare


Aaron Donald has been the DPOY 3 times in 8 seasons. He was DROY in year one and 1st team All-Pro every single season since.

When it comes to rings... it's a team sport. Nobody says Lott is a better player than Donald bc he has double the rings.

You can kind of try that shit with QBs bc they have the most impact on the outcome of any game. But not with this.
RE: RE: For Some reason I am having a hard time comparing  
allstarjim : 10/3/2022 11:18 pm : link
In comment 15845217 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 15845115 AG5686 said:


Quote:


Defensive players from different era and different positions
Most of the players listed on this thread I saw play....
Joe Greene was a 2 time Defensive player of the year and won 4 Super Bowls
So Aaron Donald has that to go up against as a DT/DL
My gut says he is between 5-10 all time
But I can honestly say some of it is recency bias..
That said I just watched the man single handedly blow up a running play in front of my very eyes so....
What he did at the end of last years super bowl was incredible
He is ahead of Olson and Deacon
Better than Ray Lewis
Reggie White was equally unblockable in his prime
How to compare Donald to Lott or Deion???
LT is well LfuckingTee
Sheesh Lott has 4 rings folks
Very very difficult to compare



Aaron Donald has been the DPOY 3 times in 8 seasons. He was DROY in year one and 1st team All-Pro every single season since.

When it comes to rings... it's a team sport. Nobody says Lott is a better player than Donald bc he has double the rings.

You can kind of try that shit with QBs bc they have the most impact on the outcome of any game. But not with this.


I meant nobody says Lott was a better player than LT bc he has double the rings.
RE: Lawrence Taylor re-defined the LBer position  
allstarjim : 10/3/2022 11:25 pm : link
In comment 15845137 M.S. said:
Quote:

Aaron Donald did not re-define the DT position.

Aaron Donald may well be the greatest DT in the history of the NFL.

But Lawrence Taylor is the greatest defenseman ever.


He actually kind of did. He was considered too small to be a true DT in the NFL. Too short, not heavy enough. Teams, including the Giants, passed on him bc he didn't meet the physical profile.

His blend of strength and quickness from a pure DT position, dominating much larger men, has never been done before from the DT position this consistently. He's an unblockable force. White was strong and quick as well, but he was also a prototype DT. Donald is/was far from that. He broke the mold.
RE: RE: For Some reason I am having a hard time comparing  
AG5686 : 10/3/2022 11:50 pm : link
In comment 15845217 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 15845115 AG5686 said:


Quote:


Defensive players from different era and different positions
Most of the players listed on this thread I saw play....
Joe Greene was a 2 time Defensive player of the year and won 4 Super Bowls
So Aaron Donald has that to go up against as a DT/DL
My gut says he is between 5-10 all time
But I can honestly say some of it is recency bias..
That said I just watched the man single handedly blow up a running play in front of my very eyes so....
What he did at the end of last years super bowl was incredible
He is ahead of Olson and Deacon
Better than Ray Lewis
Reggie White was equally unblockable in his prime
How to compare Donald to Lott or Deion???
LT is well LfuckingTee
Sheesh Lott has 4 rings folks
Very very difficult to compare



Aaron Donald has been the DPOY 3 times in 8 seasons. He was DROY in year one and 1st team All-Pro every single season since.

When it comes to rings... it's a team sport. Nobody says Lott is a better player than Donald bc he has double the rings.

You can kind of try that shit with QBs bc they have the most impact on the outcome of any game. But not with this.

Good points all star jim
Donald Is A Bigger Faster Version Of John Randle  
Trainmaster : 10/3/2022 11:58 pm : link
LT had off the charts speed and power and intensity and football IQ and intimidation factor. Do Donald has the speed and power combo.

Donald is so intimidating our UDFA Center took Donald on.

I’ll trust my eyes and evaluation of Bill Belichick regarding where LT lies.

This is becoming the football equivalent of a  
bwitz : 10/4/2022 12:23 am : link
‘Who’s stronger?’ comic character argument.
King voted for Cole Beasley as All Pro  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 10/4/2022 12:49 am : link
Ever since that moment, I lost all respect for him. This was even before Beasley’s dumb off field stuff, him being voted All Pro legitimately angered me.

He knows as much as the average fan. He’s a fucking nothing. Who cares what he thinks?

But at the same time, I’ve got two points to make

- Donald is really really good. He’s going to end up Alan Page level which makes him worthy of GOAT defender talk

- LT was amazing and my vote for GOAT, but he’s overrated when people say he’s “unanimous defensive GOAT”. Like I said, he’s my GOAT. But it’s embarrassing sometimes when people say it’s not a contest.
One mistake many make now when talking about LT  
Matt M. : 10/4/2022 3:21 am : link
or comparing others to him, is they seem to only consider his pass russhing. They are ignoring everything else he did. He blew up the run to his side and chased down RBs down the line to anywhere on the opposite side of the field. He could cover a RB, TE, or WR1 in single man coverage. He created turnovers like nobody else. He is not given enough credit for his football IQ. He diagnosed plays, schemes, etc. He knew where he was supposed to be and where everyone else on the D was supposed to be. He wasn't just a pass rusher, like so many OLBs are today.
RE: King voted for Cole Beasley as All Pro  
section125 : 10/4/2022 5:38 am : link
In comment 15845258 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:


- Donald is really really good. He’s going to end up Alan Page level which makes him worthy of GOAT defender talk

- LT was amazing and my vote for GOAT, but he’s overrated when people say he’s “unanimous defensive GOAT”. Like I said, he’s my GOAT. But it’s embarrassing sometimes when people say it’s not a contest.


Agree with point one.

LT is not overrated. And it truly is not a contest. Remember he was also All Pro at ILB/MLB when Harry was out for a year with injury.
Simply put, if you could pick one defender with which to start your team of any NFL player who would that be...?

And now that I mentioned Harry, I might consider taking Harry over Aaron Donald.
RE: One mistake many make now when talking about LT  
Eman11 : 10/4/2022 6:29 am : link
In comment 15845264 Matt M. said:
Quote:
or comparing others to him, is they seem to only consider his pass russhing. They are ignoring everything else he did. He blew up the run to his side and chased down RBs down the line to anywhere on the opposite side of the field. He could cover a RB, TE, or WR1 in single man coverage. He created turnovers like nobody else. He is not given enough credit for his football IQ. He diagnosed plays, schemes, etc. He knew where he was supposed to be and where everyone else on the D was supposed to be. He wasn't just a pass rusher, like so many OLBs are today.


Great points and I’ll add he also invented the strip sack. It’s become a staple play by defenders now but LT was the first to not only want the sack but come down swinging his arm to knock the ball loose in the process.

I liken it to Ron Guidry in the 70’s going after the single game strikeout record. Every time he got two strikes the fans started clapping and cheering for the 3rd. Now it’s part of baseball everywhere but it had to start somewhere, and that started with Guidry’s game against the Angels in old Yankee Stadium. Same with the strip sack, it started with LT.
RE: RE: Lawrence Taylor re-defined the LBer position  
M.S. : 10/4/2022 6:53 am : link
In comment 15845224 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 15845137 M.S. said:


Quote:



Aaron Donald did not re-define the DT position.

Aaron Donald may well be the greatest DT in the history of the NFL.

But Lawrence Taylor is the greatest defenseman ever.



He actually kind of did. He was considered too small to be a true DT in the NFL. Too short, not heavy enough. Teams, including the Giants, passed on him bc he didn't meet the physical profile.

His blend of strength and quickness from a pure DT position, dominating much larger men, has never been done before from the DT position this consistently. He's an unblockable force. White was strong and quick as well, but he was also a prototype DT. Donald is/was far from that. He broke the mold.

If you are referring to Reggie White, didn't he play DE?
As time goes on peoples brains  
Sec 103 : 10/4/2022 7:20 am : link
get foggy and contrived. While there are many players that are in this conversation, there is only one clear and obvious standout and that is LT. Stop!
If memory serves me well  
AG5686 : 10/4/2022 9:52 am : link
A few years ago SI did an all time Fantasy Football draft.
Where 12 ex players and Football experts could draft anyone from any era to make a team.
LT was the FIRST GUY SELECTED overall.
Mic dropped
Aaron Donald is a fantastic player  
Greg from LI : 10/4/2022 9:59 am : link
Easy first-ballot Hall of Famer.

But he's not LT. No one is, no one ever will be. Sorry.
First of all there is LT and no one else on that list  
arniefez : 10/4/2022 10:32 am : link
as an LB. Period. I scanned the thread and saw someone list Ray Lewis after LT. The NFL didn't begin in 2000. I'm not sure Ray Lewis isn't a top 10 MLB on my list let alone the 3rd best LB of all time which he is definitely not. I get that a lot of you are a lot younger than me and haven't seen Willie Lanier or Harry Carson in his prime or Butkus or Nitschke. Gil Brandt has Ray Lewis 12 on his list of best LBs all positions of all time behind both Butkus (3) and Nitschke (11). You know who #1 on the list is.
Aaron Donald is a HOF player  
arniefez : 10/4/2022 10:37 am : link
He is not Reggie White not even close. Peter King is way off base here if the OP is on point. I don't and won't read Peter King he's an NFL propagandist. This "opinion" is another example.
"Don't worry where I am. I'll tell you when I get there."  
NoPeanutz : 10/4/2022 10:42 am : link
Who said it? Lawrence Taylor, or the Angel of Death?
The thing that hits you when watching retrospectives about LT (or other old-timers mentioned above), is how their presence on or off the field didn't "impact the game" so much as it totally f*cked inside the heads of the quarterbacks.

The famous story about the QB calling a timeout bc he couldn't locate LT on the field, only to discover that LT was on the sideline taking a breather- could in theory apply to a number of players from the 70s and 80s as mentioned above.
NOBODY would tell that story about Aaron Donald.

INTIMIDATION. above performance and ability, is what sets LT (and his class apart). Retired lineman, years later, still talking about sleepless nights. You just wouldn't confuse Aaron Donald for that guy.

There will always be a guy who runs a faster 40, benches more weight, etc. But who are you drafting first- Aaron Donald? Or the EDGE who literally, according to eye-witnesses, makes QBs forget the snap count just by making eye-contact.
that was Ron Jaworski's story about calling TO  
Greg from LI : 10/4/2022 10:49 am : link
LT tormented him. Sacked him more than any other QB, hit him a ton of other times, and generally made his life miserable.
RE: RE: RE: Lawrence Taylor re-defined the LBer position  
allstarjim : 10/4/2022 11:31 am : link
In comment 15845298 M.S. said:
Quote:
In comment 15845224 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 15845137 M.S. said:


Quote:



Aaron Donald did not re-define the DT position.

Aaron Donald may well be the greatest DT in the history of the NFL.

But Lawrence Taylor is the greatest defenseman ever.



He actually kind of did. He was considered too small to be a true DT in the NFL. Too short, not heavy enough. Teams, including the Giants, passed on him bc he didn't meet the physical profile.

His blend of strength and quickness from a pure DT position, dominating much larger men, has never been done before from the DT position this consistently. He's an unblockable force. White was strong and quick as well, but he was also a prototype DT. Donald is/was far from that. He broke the mold.


If you are referring to Reggie White, didn't he play DE?


White played defensive line. He played 5-tech, 3-tech, shit, sometimes NT. He was a 3-4 DE just like Donald is a 3-4 DE, they both lined up all over the place, but in the truest sense, they are both DT's.

I understand that if you go to pro football reference you'll see White as a DE and Donald as a DT. But Donald is used similarly to White.
RE: Stupid take  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/4/2022 6:59 pm : link
In comment 15844926 Stan in LA said:
Quote:
John Jerry eat Donald's lunch every time they played.

'nuff said

I guess we know who our John Jerry "Stan" was.
RE: RE: RE: For Some reason I am having a hard time comparing  
bw in dc : 10/4/2022 8:52 pm : link
In comment 15845219 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 15845217 allstarjim said:

I meant nobody says Lott was a better player than LT bc he has double the rings.


I would never make that case, but Lott has a spot at the table as one of the greatest defensive players ever excluding LT.

He was a great corner - 2X all pro - until he switched back to his natural position of safety (where he played at USC) and was a 6X all-pro there. Just an unbelievable combination of ball hawk, tackler, leader, and intimidator.

Best two safety I have ever seen...although I will listen to anyone who argues Ed Reed. I think Reed was the best defensive player of his era and better than his teammate Ray Lewis.

RE: Recency bias  
jhibb : 10/4/2022 9:38 pm : link
In comment 15844949 adamg said:
Quote:
People love the newest shiniest thing.

This.
Lott’s versatility set him apart  
Greg from LI : 10/5/2022 1:46 am : link
Being an All Pro corner and also an All Pro safety is a pretty incredible feat
RE: RE: RE: RE: Lawrence Taylor re-defined the LBer position  
Angel Eyes : 10/5/2022 7:41 am : link
In comment 15845572 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 15845298 M.S. said:


Quote:


In comment 15845224 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 15845137 M.S. said:


Quote:



Aaron Donald did not re-define the DT position.

Aaron Donald may well be the greatest DT in the history of the NFL.

But Lawrence Taylor is the greatest defenseman ever.



He actually kind of did. He was considered too small to be a true DT in the NFL. Too short, not heavy enough. Teams, including the Giants, passed on him bc he didn't meet the physical profile.

His blend of strength and quickness from a pure DT position, dominating much larger men, has never been done before from the DT position this consistently. He's an unblockable force. White was strong and quick as well, but he was also a prototype DT. Donald is/was far from that. He broke the mold.


If you are referring to Reggie White, didn't he play DE?



White played defensive line. He played 5-tech, 3-tech, shit, sometimes NT. He was a 3-4 DE just like Donald is a 3-4 DE, they both lined up all over the place, but in the truest sense, they are both DT's.

I understand that if you go to pro football reference you'll see White as a DE and Donald as a DT. But Donald is used similarly to White.

White predominantly played in a 4-3 scheme; there's only a couple years where he played in a 3-4, his rookie season before Buddy Ryan took over and his first season with the Packers in 1993.
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