Thought experiment - Give any QB in the last 20 years no line and no receivers and see how they do.
MADNESS
Herbert had terrible coaching and the worst offensive line in the league, he seemed to do fine.
He had the 16th ranked line and 13th ranked WR.
Herbert is in a much stronger situation than Jones by leaps and bounds.
Giants last season 30th line and 31st WR.
Read the article it makes solid points not that Jones is a great QB but success in this league has a lot to do with the talent around the QB.
Herbert’s rookie year the Chargers ended the season with the worst offensive line in football. Add to that he was a rookie, with a bad coaching staff, and not a regular offseason due to covid and he achieved a year that we’ll probably never see Jones put together as a rookie . That wasn’t just because he had good wide receivers Oline rankings 2020-2021 - ( New Window )
The Anti-DJ crowd always seem to focus on one issue and leave it at that, ignoring that DJ has faced a confluence of factors that other WBs haven't. Yes, Herbert had a bad offneisve line as had Burrow - but bother have weapons at WR and RB that Jones has almost never had. So it's not just the OL. It's the OL, plus the bad coaching, plus the lack of weapons. And not just lack of weapons. Oftentimes the among the worst if not THE worst in the league.
So do me this one favor -- name one QB who has had success who has had ALL of those headwinds. I cannot think of one.
I do not agree with tagging him. I would only resign him if he agreed to a cap friendly contract relatively speaking. So something along the line of two years at 18 mill. Not a lot for a starting QB. And the time frame doesn't lock the Giants in long term if DJ doesn't improve when the cast around him presumably improves
He could probably succeed if he had a good OL and great receivers. That is hard to do and still have a defense. The salary cap is a problem to solve. DJ will no longer be on a rookie contract.
If they can't draft "the next guy" in the upcoming draft (assuming they even wanted to), I'd still rather have Jones next year than Tyrod Taylor.
What I DON'T want to see is them throw a rookie QB into the same shitty situation that Jones is in now. The league is littered with the Darnolds, Trubiskys, Winstons who went that route.
Yes, they should be able to shore up the talent some in the offseason -- but we say that every year. They still need at least 3 GOOD interior OLs, and a quality #1 and a #2 WR. They won't be able to fix everything.
The reason they gave Taylor his contract was because if Jones imploded, they had someone competent to hold the fort. But Jones isn't what's holding the Giants offense back at the moment. In fact, the whole offense is just Jones and Barkley at the moment. Jones has (with Barkley) been more responsible for the wins, than he was the loss.
I think the odds are higher that Jones gets hurt this year running for his life, and too much, than him playing terrible.
At the end of this season, if he's still upright, and is not the reason they're losing games, I'd franchise him for next year and try and get some more talent around him -- or WHOEVER's playing QB next year. So even if they DO draft the next guy, maybe they don't have to rush his development.
As Joe Schoen said when he was asked if was worried about having to either re-sign Jones or franchise him, "those would be good problems to have."
Those guys didn’t fail because of their circumstances
Winston had Doug Marin, Mike Evans and Vincent Jackson. Their offensive line was always rough but they always had weapons and good coaching.
Tribusky had top ranked olines and defended. Darnold just wasn’t very good. The myth of “ruining” a QB because of bad situations isn’t a thing that exists. Guys just sometimes aren’t good. Does Jameis throw a lot of interceptions with the Saints because of what happened in Tampa? Not at all.
Winston had Doug Marin, Mike Evans and Vincent Jackson. Their offensive line was always rough but they always had weapons and good coaching.
Tribusky had top ranked olines and defended. Darnold just wasn’t very good. The myth of “ruining” a QB because of bad situations isn’t a thing that exists. Guys just sometimes aren’t good. Does Jameis throw a lot of interceptions with the Saints because of what happened in Tampa? Not at all.
I disagree in regard to ruining a quarterback with bad surroundings. To say it definitely does not exist seems to be going overboard. I'm not saying this is Jones, but playing quarterback is very much a mental game. Some quarterbacks can retain their mental toughness longer than others. Getting beat down physically and mentally with failures takes its toll. The problem is, it can be hard to prove.
those are your odds on drafting someone better than Jones.
Think about that before cutting Jones loose.
If I am a GM not sure I would like those odds. And I don't see anyone in this years draft that is a definite franchise QB.
You see what you want to see in order to advocate for Jones. Based on your stat the Giants have a 6 out of 25 chance of drafting someone better than Jones. That's 24% probability of drafting someone better than Jones. I love those odds given what Jones is and is not. So I advocate for the Giants to spin that dice and get another guy in here.
No he is not. And considering the question is -- is Dak better than Cooper Rush comparing him to Jones is a joke.
Really this nonsense with Jones already. You have a heavy draft class for QBs coming up. Whatever happened last year with Trubisky and the like was last offseason. This offseason you have Devin Leary's not even top 10 prospect making NFL plays. Hitch routes the kind Jones could not make
when Garrett was OC. No bubble screen needed/ "new" NFL scheming needed. NC STATE playing - ( New Window )
and more interesting in just getting a better QB. This is what Jones year is about imv. He is evaluating QB's in college and Jones. It gets complicated after that imv.
One big complication is if you make the wrong choice you are probably looking for your next HC in 2-3 years and Mara maybe starts getting the shadow team back together (at least a little).
You've got the DO IT ANYWAYZ JONEZ crowd here, but most credible football analysts seem to agree with the article.
Literally no one has said "do it anywayz Jonez" in any way, shape, or form.
What they have said is that his contract is up at the end of the year no matter how unfavorable his surroundings, and that it's crazy to just keep extending his evaluation period at a price that's likely to be 3x his current cap number (or more) unless he proves himself, albeit in spite of his mediocre supporting cast.
Is that too nuanced for you, or do you just enjoy being obtuse?
RE: Are the Giants going to Franchise Jones next year?
Is a dumb question. It assumes you either franchise him or cut him. Trubisky signed a two year $14 Million contract to be the Steelers starter this year. I think Jones will get more but no where near the average of the top 10 quarterbacks which is what the franchise number is based off of. Jones, who finally has a coach and a GM, isn't leaving in free agency if the Giants want him.
Were the Steelers the team that drafted Trubisky?
Has any team ever signed their own QB coming off his rookie contract to a midlevel prove it deal?
I'm pretty sure the answer is no, it has never happened, but I'm not 100% certain. Are there any examples?
If not, the Trubisky/Mariota/Winston situations are not apples-to-apples.
and more interesting in just getting a better QB. This is what Jones year is about imv. He is evaluating QB's in college and Jones. It gets complicated after that imv.
One big complication is if you make the wrong choice you are probably looking for your next HC in 2-3 years and Mara maybe starts getting the shadow team back together (at least a little).
Contrary to popular opinion on here--I really have not seen one shred of evidence that Shoen or Daboll or even Kafka for that matter really care about D Jones.
It appears their minds are made up that Jones will play here because there is no better option , the offense will run through Barkley, and that at the end of this season Jones will walk.
They can extend Jones for 3-4 years, move the team and scheme forward, and still look for the "can't miss" QB. If Jones works out, then so be it and you extend him further. If not, you have 2-3 years to maneuver for one.
Fuck it, let's go a full decade more with Jones, just to be sure. Why bother trying to take advantage of the single biggest advantage available to teams in the salary cap era?
RE: Nobody is asking Jones to throw for 4500 yards
It's your opinion who cares where people stand on it. I think BD probably has grown pretty fond of some things Jones has shown him. Does he think he can lead a team in a critical division game? Playoffs? Maybe not.
That's why I say its complicated. He may be seen as good enough shorter term (if someone is not available in the draft) while they keep looking. Lots of unknown or maybe like you say it is known.
I still think in the end the draft one in rounds 2-4 and go with Jones/FA and try to win games (so BD keeps his job) and keep looking if needed. Another opinion.
those are your odds on drafting someone better than Jones.
Think about that before cutting Jones loose.
If I am a GM not sure I would like those odds. And I don't see anyone in this years draft that is a definite franchise QB.
First of all, that number is pure fiction. Secondly, it doesn't matter. The risk of picking a QB that ends up being worse than Jones has literally no negative impact on a team that cannot win a championship without significant improvement.
Getting worse at QB takes a team with a 0% chance of a championship and makes them... a team with 0% chance of a championship.
Even at your made-the-fuck-up 6/25 odds, I'll take my 24% chance at improvement over my 0% chance of winning with the status quo.
With the money the Giants have available next year and and Jones’ performance through four years, there’s a better chance they can build a roster that can compete, while keeping Saqoun with a rookie QB on a rookie contract, regardless if that QB is just as bad as Jones.
The question shouldn’t be “does Jones have a chance of succeeding as a Giant?” and should be “Do the Giants have a chance of succeeding with Jones when things are right?”.
There’s no excuses. Facts are many think the Giants offensive roster isn’t very good. Another fact is the Giants are 3-1 and Jones has made plays contributing to that record.
Some like me are of the opinion Schoen and Daboll have the ability to determine Daniels value somewhat independent of wins and losses, in the end it is a team game.
That Jones was dealt a less than ideal hand and he hasn't done much to warrant further consideration beyond this season or next? Yes, some of the talent is questionable, but he hasn't done much to make the offensive situation better. Why did Golladay devolve from a respected WR in this league when Stafford was throwing him the ball to resembling someone who shouldn't be on an NFL roster? Is it related?
The other comical take, is that BBI wants "anyone but Jones." No, most realistic fans want an upgrade over Jones. If that opportunity exists, the Giants should do everything to make that happens. Even if that means drafting a talented first round qb. The answer can't be every year "this is a weak qb class." Yet every single year, you read posts claiming the ineptitude of the qb class. Meanwhile, most years top qb talent is produced.
Are the Giants going to Franchise him next year? Cuz that’s what it’ll take, and that’s alotta money to spend on the previous regime’s QB.
I doubt it, although I am a DJ supporter.
I can't see any avenue short of him lighting it up and taking this team to the playoffs that he gets FT'd. More likely, he'll get a two year prove it bridge deal at reasonable cost as they continue to build the team around him.
Bingo. I keep seeing and hearing this FT talk with jones but why? Let’s say for the sake of argument the giants go 9-8, jones misses 2 games, accounts for 3700 total yards with 20 total tds and 10 ints. Has some good moments but nothing crazy. He keeps doing what’s he’s done through four games. The giants don’t have to FT him they can tell DJ’s camp to shop around and come back to us with any offer and if and when we talk. FT….why? Fuck that. Offer a one or two year fair deal and if he doesn’t like it he can go elsewhere. No one is offering jones a monster deal many qbs sign. That doesn’t jones won’t sign that kind of deal one day, but that day isn’t coming March - May 2023.
Giants can even draft a qb next April in the first round and keep jones for a year as the bridge qb. Taylor isn’t that guy. If we go 9-8 and have a better team next year on paper I don’t want to necessarily go all in with a rookie qb picked 19th or tenth overall in 23. And jones doesn’t have to get the FT or monster deal here with nyg either.
You're right. Since Jones' best qualities are his legs at this point the offense has to be designed around his ability to run. It is so hard to win in this league with quarterbacks who must actively run (not scramble) as a part of the offense. They get beat up and play with injuries and maybe wear down faster or they sit with their injuries which makes them unavailable to the offense.
Are the Giants going to Franchise him next year? Cuz that’s what it’ll take, and that’s alotta money to spend on the previous regime’s QB.
I doubt it, although I am a DJ supporter.
I don't care how bad the team is...you can't franchise tag a QB that doesn't throw TD passes and struggles to throw for 200 yards a game...not to mention the injuries. At the end of the year, you offer him $5 million to backup/mentor your new rookie QB...if he declines, you help him pack.
He's not that good, folks!
Seems like posters on BBV disagree with the haters
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In comment 15845392 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 15845382 mattlawson said:
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Thought experiment - Give any QB in the last 20 years no line and no receivers and see how they do.
MADNESS
Herbert had terrible coaching and the worst offensive line in the league, he seemed to do fine.
He had the 16th ranked line and 13th ranked WR.
Herbert is in a much stronger situation than Jones by leaps and bounds.
Giants last season 30th line and 31st WR.
Read the article it makes solid points not that Jones is a great QB but success in this league has a lot to do with the talent around the QB.
Herbert’s rookie year the Chargers ended the season with the worst offensive line in football. Add to that he was a rookie, with a bad coaching staff, and not a regular offseason due to covid and he achieved a year that we’ll probably never see Jones put together as a rookie . That wasn’t just because he had good wide receivers Oline rankings 2020-2021 - ( New Window )
The Anti-DJ crowd always seem to focus on one issue and leave it at that, ignoring that DJ has faced a confluence of factors that other WBs haven't. Yes, Herbert had a bad offneisve line as had Burrow - but bother have weapons at WR and RB that Jones has almost never had. So it's not just the OL. It's the OL, plus the bad coaching, plus the lack of weapons. And not just lack of weapons. Oftentimes the among the worst if not THE worst in the league.
So do me this one favor -- name one QB who has had success who has had ALL of those headwinds. I cannot think of one.
Like Hembo said on Greenies show the other day when Mike was talking about organizational failure "If he was the guy he'd have shown us more"
Very zen-like question, like what's the sound of one hand clapping.
What I DON'T want to see is them throw a rookie QB into the same shitty situation that Jones is in now. The league is littered with the Darnolds, Trubiskys, Winstons who went that route.
Yes, they should be able to shore up the talent some in the offseason -- but we say that every year. They still need at least 3 GOOD interior OLs, and a quality #1 and a #2 WR. They won't be able to fix everything.
The reason they gave Taylor his contract was because if Jones imploded, they had someone competent to hold the fort. But Jones isn't what's holding the Giants offense back at the moment. In fact, the whole offense is just Jones and Barkley at the moment. Jones has (with Barkley) been more responsible for the wins, than he was the loss.
I think the odds are higher that Jones gets hurt this year running for his life, and too much, than him playing terrible.
At the end of this season, if he's still upright, and is not the reason they're losing games, I'd franchise him for next year and try and get some more talent around him -- or WHOEVER's playing QB next year. So even if they DO draft the next guy, maybe they don't have to rush his development.
As Joe Schoen said when he was asked if was worried about having to either re-sign Jones or franchise him, "those would be good problems to have."
Tribusky had top ranked olines and defended. Darnold just wasn’t very good. The myth of “ruining” a QB because of bad situations isn’t a thing that exists. Guys just sometimes aren’t good. Does Jameis throw a lot of interceptions with the Saints because of what happened in Tampa? Not at all.
I agree. It's like people think it's out of the question for the Giants to sign DJ to contract.
Tribusky had top ranked olines and defended. Darnold just wasn’t very good. The myth of “ruining” a QB because of bad situations isn’t a thing that exists. Guys just sometimes aren’t good. Does Jameis throw a lot of interceptions with the Saints because of what happened in Tampa? Not at all.
I disagree in regard to ruining a quarterback with bad surroundings. To say it definitely does not exist seems to be going overboard. I'm not saying this is Jones, but playing quarterback is very much a mental game. Some quarterbacks can retain their mental toughness longer than others. Getting beat down physically and mentally with failures takes its toll. The problem is, it can be hard to prove.
Think about that before cutting Jones loose.
If I am a GM not sure I would like those odds. And I don't see anyone in this years draft that is a definite franchise QB.
Doing right by Daniel Jones is not the mission statement of the franchise
Think about that before cutting Jones loose.
If I am a GM not sure I would like those odds. And I don't see anyone in this years draft that is a definite franchise QB.
There was about the same chance Thomas was better than Solder too.
Think about that before cutting Jones loose.
If I am a GM not sure I would like those odds. And I don't see anyone in this years draft that is a definite franchise QB.
You see what you want to see in order to advocate for Jones. Based on your stat the Giants have a 6 out of 25 chance of drafting someone better than Jones. That's 24% probability of drafting someone better than Jones. I love those odds given what Jones is and is not. So I advocate for the Giants to spin that dice and get another guy in here.
No he is not. And considering the question is -- is Dak better than Cooper Rush comparing him to Jones is a joke.
Really this nonsense with Jones already. You have a heavy draft class for QBs coming up. Whatever happened last year with Trubisky and the like was last offseason. This offseason you have Devin Leary's not even top 10 prospect making NFL plays. Hitch routes the kind Jones could not make
when Garrett was OC. No bubble screen needed/ "new" NFL scheming needed.
NC STATE playing - ( New Window )
When he comes back, he'll get hurt again.
If/when the wr/IOL situation is "fixed," he'll get hurt again.
Etc.
One big complication is if you make the wrong choice you are probably looking for your next HC in 2-3 years and Mara maybe starts getting the shadow team back together (at least a little).
You've got the DO IT ANYWAYZ JONEZ crowd here, but most credible football analysts seem to agree with the article.
Literally no one has said "do it anywayz Jonez" in any way, shape, or form.
What they have said is that his contract is up at the end of the year no matter how unfavorable his surroundings, and that it's crazy to just keep extending his evaluation period at a price that's likely to be 3x his current cap number (or more) unless he proves himself, albeit in spite of his mediocre supporting cast.
Is that too nuanced for you, or do you just enjoy being obtuse?
Were the Steelers the team that drafted Trubisky?
Has any team ever signed their own QB coming off his rookie contract to a midlevel prove it deal?
I'm pretty sure the answer is no, it has never happened, but I'm not 100% certain. Are there any examples?
If not, the Trubisky/Mariota/Winston situations are not apples-to-apples.
One big complication is if you make the wrong choice you are probably looking for your next HC in 2-3 years and Mara maybe starts getting the shadow team back together (at least a little).
Contrary to popular opinion on here--I really have not seen one shred of evidence that Shoen or Daboll or even Kafka for that matter really care about D Jones.
It appears their minds are made up that Jones will play here because there is no better option , the offense will run through Barkley, and that at the end of this season Jones will walk.
Fuck it, let's go a full decade more with Jones, just to be sure. Why bother trying to take advantage of the single biggest advantage available to teams in the salary cap era?
You could give Jones two full seasons and he might not get to either of those numbers.
That's why I say its complicated. He may be seen as good enough shorter term (if someone is not available in the draft) while they keep looking. Lots of unknown or maybe like you say it is known.
I still think in the end the draft one in rounds 2-4 and go with Jones/FA and try to win games (so BD keeps his job) and keep looking if needed. Another opinion.
Think about that before cutting Jones loose.
If I am a GM not sure I would like those odds. And I don't see anyone in this years draft that is a definite franchise QB.
First of all, that number is pure fiction. Secondly, it doesn't matter. The risk of picking a QB that ends up being worse than Jones has literally no negative impact on a team that cannot win a championship without significant improvement.
Getting worse at QB takes a team with a 0% chance of a championship and makes them... a team with 0% chance of a championship.
Even at your made-the-fuck-up 6/25 odds, I'll take my 24% chance at improvement over my 0% chance of winning with the status quo.
Fire your editor.
Anyway, how does it "despite" them if they're never going to contend with Jones?
With the money the Giants have available next year and and Jones’ performance through four years, there’s a better chance they can build a roster that can compete, while keeping Saqoun with a rookie QB on a rookie contract, regardless if that QB is just as bad as Jones.
Is your plan going forward to make sure that all of BBI knows that you're working with limited mental capacity?
There’s no excuses. Facts are many think the Giants offensive roster isn’t very good. Another fact is the Giants are 3-1 and Jones has made plays contributing to that record.
Some like me are of the opinion Schoen and Daboll have the ability to determine Daniels value somewhat independent of wins and losses, in the end it is a team game.
Go sign Minshew, Garoppolo, or Bridgewater. All of these guys have produced more than Jones. They all suck but so does Jones.
I m saying the opposite. He can be evaluated given the circumstances.
Quote:
saying we can’t properly evaluate Jones because of the circumstances seems like excuses to me.
I m saying the opposite. He can be evaluated given the circumstances.
Apologies misread your post
The other comical take, is that BBI wants "anyone but Jones." No, most realistic fans want an upgrade over Jones. If that opportunity exists, the Giants should do everything to make that happens. Even if that means drafting a talented first round qb. The answer can't be every year "this is a weak qb class." Yet every single year, you read posts claiming the ineptitude of the qb class. Meanwhile, most years top qb talent is produced.
Quote:
Are the Giants going to Franchise him next year? Cuz that’s what it’ll take, and that’s alotta money to spend on the previous regime’s QB.
I doubt it, although I am a DJ supporter.
I can't see any avenue short of him lighting it up and taking this team to the playoffs that he gets FT'd. More likely, he'll get a two year prove it bridge deal at reasonable cost as they continue to build the team around him.
Bingo. I keep seeing and hearing this FT talk with jones but why? Let’s say for the sake of argument the giants go 9-8, jones misses 2 games, accounts for 3700 total yards with 20 total tds and 10 ints. Has some good moments but nothing crazy. He keeps doing what’s he’s done through four games. The giants don’t have to FT him they can tell DJ’s camp to shop around and come back to us with any offer and if and when we talk. FT….why? Fuck that. Offer a one or two year fair deal and if he doesn’t like it he can go elsewhere. No one is offering jones a monster deal many qbs sign. That doesn’t jones won’t sign that kind of deal one day, but that day isn’t coming March - May 2023.
Giants can even draft a qb next April in the first round and keep jones for a year as the bridge qb. Taylor isn’t that guy. If we go 9-8 and have a better team next year on paper I don’t want to necessarily go all in with a rookie qb picked 19th or tenth overall in 23. And jones doesn’t have to get the FT or monster deal here with nyg either.
You're right. Since Jones' best qualities are his legs at this point the offense has to be designed around his ability to run. It is so hard to win in this league with quarterbacks who must actively run (not scramble) as a part of the offense. They get beat up and play with injuries and maybe wear down faster or they sit with their injuries which makes them unavailable to the offense.
I doubt it, although I am a DJ supporter.
I don't care how bad the team is...you can't franchise tag a QB that doesn't throw TD passes and struggles to throw for 200 yards a game...not to mention the injuries. At the end of the year, you offer him $5 million to backup/mentor your new rookie QB...if he declines, you help him pack.
He's not that good, folks!
Quote:
Like cutting odd your nose despite yourself.
Fire your editor.
Anyway, how does it "despite" them if they're never going to contend with Jones?
lol!
If he misses significant time yet again, that would greatly diminish any possibility of him coming back, that issue cannot be ignored.
I think that premise is assumed