Now that Aaron Judge's historic Season of 62 Home Runs is behind us,it's time for the Sports Writers to voice their opinions about who the real Single Season HR King truly is.
I just listened to Manfred on Get Up with Mike Greenberg,and the commissioner is clearly unable to meet the moment on his own.
He deflected all attempts Greenie made to delineate the "Steroid Era" records from Judge's.
Do you agree,and if so,how do you see the best way to go about it?
I tend to agree. Hell, I believe Conseco basically confirmed that.
If you recall, steroids were a huge issue in track and field in the '80s (see Ben Johnon), so I would not be surprised at all if baseball players took an interest.
Vincent sent that memo in 1991. He was later quoted as saying.
On whether he had banned steroids as commissioner.
So just to clarify unequivocally -- steroids were not banned in MLB in 1991.
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Did Judge have to hit against any steroid-assisted pitchers?
So his task was easier, no?
With the nosedive we see in hitting (nearly half the league hit 240 or <), I think we can contribute that to this newer age of baseball where teams can rotate more pitchers in a game that throw harder than ever.
It's really difficult to hit right now. Which is why, IMV, Judge's season is even more impressive.
That's a separate issue entirely.
To the extent that PED-usage (steroids in particular) was so rampant and had such a beneficial effect for hitters like Bonds, it only stands to reason that it had a similarly beneficial effect for pitchers.
And none of the pitchers that Aaron Judge faced were enjoying that steroid-aided beneficial effect.
I grew up watching baseball in the 70's and the beauty of baseball was there were certain magical #s that stood out.
3000 plus hits,300 Wins etc....but the HR record was the king of them all.
I can remember years in the middle 70s when 38 HRs won the title for that particular year.
So any horseshit about greenies being PEDs is exactly that horseshit.
I hear folks throwing this shade out about players of the 50s 60s 70s and yet there is little to zero evidence that it aided them all that much,except maybe to wake them from the drunk the night before.
Just look at the numbers,guys at the top of the HR lists on a yearly basis were 40 sometimes 50...George Foster hitting 52 one year (1977???)was quite the feat at the time....
All of a sudden guys who NEVER hit 30 HRs before were hitting 50,60 HRs....this seemed so very unfair to me,because I enjoyed comparing HR hitters across generations,and this made it impossible.
There were certain mythical #s 660 for Willie Mays,511 for Mel Ott.
Henry Aaron had to deal with racist attacks from assholes as he took down Ruth.
Look at Aaron's individual years...he rarely was above 40 HRs....greenies be damned.
I have railed against this since the very beginings of Steroid Use in baseball...and the fact that the guy it effects the most now is a Yankee makes it even worse...
But I assure you I would be equally upset if the guy hitting 62 HR now was a Milwaukee Brewer.
McGuire had the guts to call up the Maris family to apologize for lying,and usering the roid era.
Bonds was a dick about it...
Either way,a quick look at Bonds' career #s show you what he did....the fact that it was legal/illegal,is franky irrelevant.
MLB screwed the pooch on it then,it's time for them to right the wrong.
Vincent sent that memo in 1991. He was later quoted as saying.
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The letter was ignored because it didn’t affect the players. They were thoroughly protected by collective bargaining. But I wanted to make a moral statement to them and legal one to everyone else. The union told them to ignore it. The only way a change could be made was through collective bargaining. The union argued that testing violated players’ civil liberties. The union had strong, bright lawyers who concocted a bulletproof legal argument.
On whether he had banned steroids as commissioner.
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I wanted to put pressure on the union to recognize I was correct. I failed; we tried and failed at the bargaining table, too. When I left baseball, there was no written policy on drug activity in baseball. It was pathetic, inept.
So just to clarify unequivocally -- steroids were not banned in MLB in 1991.
I remember the times well,the players union refused to test
John Kruk,a players rep at the time,deeply regretted the stance years later
Vincent sent that memo in 1991. He was later quoted as saying.
Quote:
The letter was ignored because it didn’t affect the players. They were thoroughly protected by collective bargaining. But I wanted to make a moral statement to them and legal one to everyone else. The union told them to ignore it. The only way a change could be made was through collective bargaining. The union argued that testing violated players’ civil liberties. The union had strong, bright lawyers who concocted a bulletproof legal argument.
On whether he had banned steroids as commissioner.
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I wanted to put pressure on the union to recognize I was correct. I failed; we tried and failed at the bargaining table, too. When I left baseball, there was no written policy on drug activity in baseball. It was pathetic, inept.
So just to clarify unequivocally -- steroids were not banned in MLB in 1991.
The players through that memo were told not to use them, that if this was illegal by federal law then it was illegal to be in baseball
If you are using a substance that was illegal to have, then you know you arent supposed to use it
The players knew they werent supposed to use it, but they did anyway
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In comment 15848609 Gatorade Dunk said:
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Did Judge have to hit against any steroid-assisted pitchers?
So his task was easier, no?
With the nosedive we see in hitting (nearly half the league hit 240 or <), I think we can contribute that to this newer age of baseball where teams can rotate more pitchers in a game that throw harder than ever.
It's really difficult to hit right now. Which is why, IMV, Judge's season is even more impressive.
That's a separate issue entirely.
To the extent that PED-usage (steroids in particular) was so rampant and had such a beneficial effect for hitters like Bonds, it only stands to reason that it had a similarly beneficial effect for pitchers.
And none of the pitchers that Aaron Judge faced were enjoying that steroid-aided beneficial effect.
I do not believe it does stand to reason...name a pitcher that benefitted from it?
Even further,name one that was able to achieve either a single season or life time record,at the expense of past greats,due soley to his steroid use
For some reason it didnt aid pitchers as much.
Clemens comes to mind,and we all know what happened to that idiot.
Im sure Nolan Ryan would love to get him in an alley somewhere
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In comment 15848624 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15848609 Gatorade Dunk said:
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Did Judge have to hit against any steroid-assisted pitchers?
So his task was easier, no?
With the nosedive we see in hitting (nearly half the league hit 240 or <), I think we can contribute that to this newer age of baseball where teams can rotate more pitchers in a game that throw harder than ever.
It's really difficult to hit right now. Which is why, IMV, Judge's season is even more impressive.
That's a separate issue entirely.
To the extent that PED-usage (steroids in particular) was so rampant and had such a beneficial effect for hitters like Bonds, it only stands to reason that it had a similarly beneficial effect for pitchers.
And none of the pitchers that Aaron Judge faced were enjoying that steroid-aided beneficial effect.
I do not believe it does stand to reason...name a pitcher that benefitted from it?
Even further,name one that was able to achieve either a single season or life time record,at the expense of past greats,due soley to his steroid use
For some reason it didnt aid pitchers as much.
Clemens comes to mind,and we all know what happened to that idiot.
Im sure Nolan Ryan would love to get him in an alley somewhere
You have no idea how much steroids enhanced the performance of pitchers. It stands to reason that they would not have used steroids if they did not see any benefit.
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In comment 15848637 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15848624 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15848609 Gatorade Dunk said:
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Did Judge have to hit against any steroid-assisted pitchers?
So his task was easier, no?
With the nosedive we see in hitting (nearly half the league hit 240 or <), I think we can contribute that to this newer age of baseball where teams can rotate more pitchers in a game that throw harder than ever.
It's really difficult to hit right now. Which is why, IMV, Judge's season is even more impressive.
That's a separate issue entirely.
To the extent that PED-usage (steroids in particular) was so rampant and had such a beneficial effect for hitters like Bonds, it only stands to reason that it had a similarly beneficial effect for pitchers.
And none of the pitchers that Aaron Judge faced were enjoying that steroid-aided beneficial effect.
I do not believe it does stand to reason...name a pitcher that benefitted from it?
Even further,name one that was able to achieve either a single season or life time record,at the expense of past greats,due soley to his steroid use
For some reason it didnt aid pitchers as much.
Clemens comes to mind,and we all know what happened to that idiot.
Im sure Nolan Ryan would love to get him in an alley somewhere
You have no idea how much steroids enhanced the performance of pitchers. It stands to reason that they would not have used steroids if they did not see any benefit.
If it helped them so much,how did those jamokes all hit 60-70 HRs off em?
You have no evidence to support your position pal
You have no evidence to support your position pal
Your real name is Stan, isn't it...
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You have no evidence to support your position pal
Your real name is Stan, isn't it...
It's AG5686,dont bother even looking at my posts,ok?
I do not believe it does stand to reason...name a pitcher that benefitted from it?
Even further,name one that was able to achieve either a single season or life time record,at the expense of past greats,due soley to his steroid use
For some reason it didnt aid pitchers as much.
Clemens comes to mind,and we all know what happened to that idiot.
Im sure Nolan Ryan would love to get him in an alley somewhere
One of the advantages of PED is recovery. So, that would seem to be an enticing reason to use PEDs if you were a pitcher.
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I do not believe it does stand to reason...name a pitcher that benefitted from it?
Even further,name one that was able to achieve either a single season or life time record,at the expense of past greats,due soley to his steroid use
For some reason it didnt aid pitchers as much.
Clemens comes to mind,and we all know what happened to that idiot.
Im sure Nolan Ryan would love to get him in an alley somewhere
One of the advantages of PED is recovery. So, that would seem to be an enticing reason to use PEDs if you were a pitcher.
yes that is 100% true,its why Pettie was drawn to it...but I haven't seen numberical evidence showing how it aided and abetted the pitchers numbers,either single season or career the way it did for Bonds and McGuire-even a guy like Palmero.
Can you name a pitcher you are thinking of?
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In comment 15848671 AG5686 said:
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I do not believe it does stand to reason...name a pitcher that benefitted from it?
Even further,name one that was able to achieve either a single season or life time record,at the expense of past greats,due soley to his steroid use
For some reason it didnt aid pitchers as much.
Clemens comes to mind,and we all know what happened to that idiot.
Im sure Nolan Ryan would love to get him in an alley somewhere
One of the advantages of PED is recovery. So, that would seem to be an enticing reason to use PEDs if you were a pitcher.
yes that is 100% true,its why Pettie was drawn to it...but I haven't seen numberical evidence showing how it aided and abetted the pitchers numbers,either single season or career the way it did for Bonds and McGuire-even a guy like Palmero.
Can you name a pitcher you are thinking of?
Additionally, the way the game is played has changed. Players are now being asked to forego contact and almost exclusively swing for the fences.
So does the addition of maple Bata, for that matter.
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In comment 15848715 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15848671 AG5686 said:
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I do not believe it does stand to reason...name a pitcher that benefitted from it?
Even further,name one that was able to achieve either a single season or life time record,at the expense of past greats,due soley to his steroid use
For some reason it didnt aid pitchers as much.
Clemens comes to mind,and we all know what happened to that idiot.
Im sure Nolan Ryan would love to get him in an alley somewhere
One of the advantages of PED is recovery. So, that would seem to be an enticing reason to use PEDs if you were a pitcher.
yes that is 100% true,its why Pettie was drawn to it...but I haven't seen numberical evidence showing how it aided and abetted the pitchers numbers,either single season or career the way it did for Bonds and McGuire-even a guy like Palmero.
Can you name a pitcher you are thinking of?
Pettitte is the first that came to mind and immediately. Clemens, by some accounts, was done until he started using.
agreed
Clemens was done done done,thats why the Red Sox let him go.
I hate the fact that Clemens is a part of Yankee history,AROID too....
As far as I am concerned their records and achievements mean nothing....and if Clemens held a Career or Single Season record over a clean guy from the past,id be pounding my fist on the table about his usage too....
Additionally, the way the game is played has changed. Players are now being asked to forego contact and almost exclusively swing for the fences.
I am not dismissing them,the numbers speak for themselves.
give me a period of time...ill show you a time when 40 or even 50 HRs in 1 season was alot
Additionally, the way the game is played has changed. Players are now being asked to forego contact and almost exclusively swing for the fences.
I'll add other factors that have contributed to increased hproduction for this era. Training methods. Higher salaries allowing players to focus 100%on baseball and not have to work other jobs in the off season. Huge advancements in video and data accessibility.
You want to believe greenies didn't help because top HR hitter didn't routinely hit over 50, go ahead. But, it's
nowhere near that simple. And if you don't think guys like Mantle, Mays, and Aaron would be hitting well over 50 every year if they played now, I think you are seriously mistaken.
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In comment 15848671 AG5686 said:
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I do not believe it does stand to reason...name a pitcher that benefitted from it?
Even further,name one that was able to achieve either a single season or life time record,at the expense of past greats,due soley to his steroid use
For some reason it didnt aid pitchers as much.
Clemens comes to mind,and we all know what happened to that idiot.
Im sure Nolan Ryan would love to get him in an alley somewhere
One of the advantages of PED is recovery. So, that would seem to be an enticing reason to use PEDs if you were a pitcher.
yes that is 100% true,its why Pettie was drawn to it...but I haven't seen numberical evidence showing how it aided and abetted the pitchers numbers,either single season or career the way it did for Bonds and McGuire-even a guy like Palmero.
Can you name a pitcher you are thinking of?
You not seeing "numberical evidence" doesn't mean that your point is valid. Go prove your own point. Until then, basic logic dictates that if the steroid era hitters were gaining a benefit from using PEDs of that era, then so too were the pitchers of that era who used.
All of these arguments go both ways. Ruth played pre-integration, but also pre-expansion. Maris played a 162-game schedule, but the travel schedule was much more strenuous for players than it was in Ruth's era.
And so it goes for this argument: if you want to credit Judge for his accomplishment without steroids, you should at least acknowledge that he didn't have to face any steroid-aided pitchers, either. Unless you have no interest in intellectual honesty; that's up to you.
One of the advantages of PED is recovery. So, that would seem to be an enticing reason to use PEDs if you were a pitcher.
yes that is 100% true,its why Pettie was drawn to it...but I haven't seen numberical evidence showing how it aided and abetted the pitchers numbers,either single season or career the way it did for Bonds and McGuire-even a guy like Palmero.
Can you name a pitcher you are thinking of?
Candidly, I wouldn't rule anyone out in that era - Big Unit, Schilling, Pedro, Smoltz, Halladay, Gagne, etc.
Maybe the payoff was pitchers on PEDs kept the offensive numbers from being even more astronomical...?
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I don't know how you can immediately dismiss them. Also, those batters were facing illegal pitches and pitchers throwing from a higher mound. There are also many plausible allegations and evidence that balls have been juiced over the different periods of the last couple of decades. All contribute to a difference in HR totals. More recently, MLB bought Rawlings and no has control over quality of the balls. There have been some studies related to this.
Additionally, the way the game is played has changed. Players are now being asked to forego contact and almost exclusively swing for the fences.
Obviously, that was about greenies, not gredness. I don't think it's possible to measure the impact of any one PED over another, especially across eras. But, I think it is universally accepted at this point that greenies did help players. Again,by how much, who knows?
I'll add other factors that have contributed to increased hproduction for this era. Training methods. Higher salaries allowing players to focus 100%on baseball and not have to work other jobs in the off season. Huge advancements in video and data accessibility.
You want to believe greenies didn't help because top HR hitter didn't routinely hit over 50, go ahead. But, it's
nowhere near that simple. And if you don't think guys like Mantle, Mays, and Aaron would be hitting well over 50 every year if they played now, I think you are seriously mistaken.
Those guys of course would hit 50,during their prime,then would go back down to 30 or 40 or less.
I believe that about greenies,because the numbers said so...
look at the HR #s...
first off,awesome chopping it up with ya
Secondly....YOU JUST MADE MY POINT
LOL
that is the way baseball history was before the steroid era,and now after it....those are the numbers
Are you ok with that being the case?
i am not
Bonds vs. Gagne - ( New Window )
What lifetime record did his roid aided pitching knock down?
Or is your point that it helped pitchers too..because my response to that is look at the HR leaders during the 40s 50s 60s 70 80s...before stroid use,and now after 2010s 2020s...
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Judge is the standard-bearer.
Are you ok with that being the case?
i am not
Dear Slim, I wrote but you still ain't callin'
I left my cell, my pager, and my home phone at the bottom
I sent two letters back in autumn, you must not-a got 'em
There probably was a problem at the post office or somethin'
Sometimes I scribble addresses too sloppy when I jot 'em
But anyways, fuck it, what's been up man how's your daughter?
My girlfriend's pregnant too, I'm 'bout to be a father
If I have a daughter, guess what I'ma call her?
I'ma name her Bonnie
I read about your Uncle Ronnie too I'm sorry
I had a friend kill himself over some bitch who didn't want him
I know you probably hear this everyday, but I'm your biggest fan
I even got the underground shit that you did with Skam
I got a room full of your posters and your pictures man
I like the shit you did with Rawkus too, that shit was fat
Anyways, I hope you get this man, hit me back
Just to chat, truly yours, your biggest fan
This is Stan
Thanks GD,I haven't seen that at bat before
Gagne,had good control and movement on his fastball...Bonds just wore him down....
All Bonds needed to do back then was square the ball up...
look at him in 1992 and best he does with that 100 mph fastball is a double in the gap or a fly ball to the warning track
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In comment 15848774 BlackLight said:
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Judge is the standard-bearer.
Are you ok with that being the case?
i am not
Dear Slim, I wrote but you still ain't callin'
I left my cell, my pager, and my home phone at the bottom
I sent two letters back in autumn, you must not-a got 'em
There probably was a problem at the post office or somethin'
Sometimes I scribble addresses too sloppy when I jot 'em
But anyways, fuck it, what's been up man how's your daughter?
My girlfriend's pregnant too, I'm 'bout to be a father
If I have a daughter, guess what I'ma call her?
I'ma name her Bonnie
I read about your Uncle Ronnie too I'm sorry
I had a friend kill himself over some bitch who didn't want him
I know you probably hear this everyday, but I'm your biggest fan
I even got the underground shit that you did with Skam
I got a room full of your posters and your pictures man
I like the shit you did with Rawkus too, that shit was fat
Anyways, I hope you get this man, hit me back
Just to chat, truly yours, your biggest fan
This is Stan
Who Who..I really wanna know
who are the fuck are you you you....
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What lifetime record did his roid aided pitching knock down?
Or is your point that it helped pitchers too..because my response to that is look at the HR leaders during the 40s 50s 60s 70 80s...before stroid use,and now after 2010s 2020s...
Your fixation with the records instead of the performance is your own issue. Do you think Brady Anderson's 50 HR season is legitimate just because it didn't break any records?
If you're going to take issue with the steroid era causing illegitimate records, shouldn't you also take issue with all of the inflated stats of that era? And if you're going to take issue with the inflated stats, shouldn't you take issue with the enhanced performance that caused the inflated stats? And if you're going to take issue with the enhanced performance, you must recognize that players of that era also had to face enhanced competition; the chemical assistance was not a one-way street.
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In comment 15848782 Gatorade Dunk said:
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What lifetime record did his roid aided pitching knock down?
Or is your point that it helped pitchers too..because my response to that is look at the HR leaders during the 40s 50s 60s 70 80s...before stroid use,and now after 2010s 2020s...
Your fixation with the records instead of the performance is your own issue. Do you think Brady Anderson's 50 HR season is legitimate just because it didn't break any records?
If you're going to take issue with the steroid era causing illegitimate records, shouldn't you also take issue with all of the inflated stats of that era? And if you're going to take issue with the inflated stats, shouldn't you take issue with the enhanced performance that caused the inflated stats? And if you're going to take issue with the enhanced performance, you must recognize that players of that era also had to face enhanced competition; the chemical assistance was not a one-way street.
Brady Anderson is a perfect example,the only difference is he didn't break any all time records,otherwise I would be yapping about him.
Which inflated stats are you referring to?
The Gagne Bonds at bat you posted kinda made my point...
Gagne could have thrown it 110 mph.....and roided for days
All Bonds had to do was square it up
Look at the HR kings per season in any era its 40ish
Bonds Sosa McGuire et al
they all hit 60 plus
I don't see any evidence that it helped pitchers during a game
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(throwing out 2020), the MLB HR leader was in the 40s. 2 were in the 50s and then Judge this year. The only anomaly is Judge's 62.
first off,awesome chopping it up with ya
Secondly....YOU JUST MADE MY POINT
LOL
that is the way baseball history was before the steroid era,and now after it....those are the numbers
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Mantle used PEDs.
I don't believe that for a second. Mantle had farmer's strength.
The players through that memo were told not to use them, that if this was illegal by federal law then it was illegal to be in baseball
If you are using a substance that was illegal to have, then you know you arent supposed to use it
The players knew they werent supposed to use it, but they did anyway
They were told not to do it, by a guy who admits he had no authority to tell them what to do.
The rules in baseball aren't established by decree of the commissioner. They are collectively bargained between the players union and the league.
Whether the players broke a federal law is between the US government and the player.
This is crystal, unequivocally clear. There was no rule against PEDs in 1991. There was no rule against it until the 2000s.
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I love Bonds-who I detest-isn't in Cooperstown, but Selig-who turned a blind eye to the steroid era-is. Personally, I think all the steroid guys should be in. Put an asterisk or whatever, but isn't a HOF supposed to tell the story of the game? How do you do that without including someone like Bonds?
Well said. He is the best of his era. If you accept lesser players from that era who are known to have used, then you have to accept all.
for what its worth,none of them should be in....Ortiz included
IMHO
& this is coming from someone who detests Bonds. Detests him. From all accounts, he's a first class prick. But he should be in the HOF.
Link - ( New Window )
& this is coming from someone who detests Bonds. Detests him. From all accounts, he's a first class prick. But he should be in the HOF.
The HOF discussion is a different one,the issue I am harping on has to do with who the HR King is.
But I do not think anyone who used,then lied about it should be in the Hall.
It would be one thing if Bonds did it,then said I only did it because everyone else did.
But he didn't....he basically thumbed his nose at baseball.
Now he wants us to forgive and forget.....
If Bonds never roids,he would be a first ballot HOFer no doubt.....but he did.
This is the price he pays...
If you're being honest the answer is probably no, you wouldn't care (I hate to assume, but I can't imagine someone caring this much about something like this), which should tell you that it isn't as important or relevant as you think.
If you're being honest the answer is probably no, you wouldn't care (I hate to assume, but I can't imagine someone caring this much about something like this), which should tell you that it isn't as important or relevant as you think.
Bro...Ive been upset about this for decades....now its messed up my guys rightfull place.
wow he is in rare form there!!!