Now that Aaron Judge's historic Season of 62 Home Runs is behind us,it's time for the Sports Writers to voice their opinions about who the real Single Season HR King truly is.
I just listened to Manfred on Get Up with Mike Greenberg,and the commissioner is clearly unable to meet the moment on his own.
He deflected all attempts Greenie made to delineate the "Steroid Era" records from Judge's.
Do you agree,and if so,how do you see the best way to go about it?
As to Judge and 'roids BB12, Judge has been this size since college. You do not get to 6'7" by 'roids. Given that his size has been steady for nearly a decade, while not impossible, it is highly unlikely 'roids had anything to do with it. Look at McGwire, Bonds and Sosa and how their body changed well after 25/27 y/o in mass because of 'roids.
Its not to late for the BBWA to change their minds...they saw this season with their own eyes.
Dont they have a responsibility to the integrity of the game?
Jeez there was an asterisk on Maris' 1961 Season.
Why not do the same for the roid era?
Lmao I’m dying. Yea he took steroids so he could grow to 6 7 282. Holy hell do people know what peds actually do? Or anyone who has any muscle is a juicer?
For the life of me I don't understand Yankee fans trying to discredit everything from the steroid era (which would include their 3-4 championships), just to get Judge a record he otherwise shouldn't have. He had an incredible season and set the AL record for HRs. Enjoy it and quit bitching.
Honestly…who cares? How many of these “hallowed” baseball records had guys taking amphetamines on the reg? There’s a reason Adderall is on the banned substance list.
Personally I like the way the NFL does that, pretty much allow you to take a cycle of test year round if you want. There’s def guys that go above and beyond and risk getting popped, but the dudes that mysteriously somehow gain 10-20 lbs of pure muscle in a short off-season always seem to end up hurt (recently see Lorenzo Carter or Ojulari)
Has been throughout history. Aaron and Mantle used PEDs. Tatis just got busted. The steroid Karens are comical in their denial
There is nothing wrong with holding the AL HR record and the Yankee team record, with the Yankees being the most historic and accomplished franchise in sports history.
For the life of me I don't understand Yankee fans trying to discredit everything from the steroid era (which would include their 3-4 championships), just to get Judge a record he otherwise shouldn't have. He had an incredible season and set the AL record for HRs. Enjoy it and quit bitching.
If you cannot see that individuals are completely different than teams, you are foolish. So basically you are saying, that while many players on all teams were 'roiding, only the Yankees gained the advantage. Only a jealous Mets fan would suggest something so ludicrous.
And beside Clemens, which Yankees were juicers of that 96-01 team. Pettitte did it on the Astros afterwards. Maybe Wetteland. The rest of that team was pretty "skinny" and they did it with no one hitting more than 28 HRs(IIRC). Is it possible the Yanks had more users then I listed - of course. But to say THEY only won because of juicing ignores the fact that it would then have to be likely every other teams' players weren't, which we know is false.
Its not to late for the BBWA to change their minds...they saw this season with their own eyes.
Dont they have a responsibility to the integrity of the game?
Jeez there was an asterisk on Maris' 1961 Season.
Why not do the same for the roid era?
The thing is, during Bonds era there is no doubt that there were pitchers he faced that were also using PED's.
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math really isn't that hard. And why should only HRs not count during the steroid era? Why should championships of teams with a bunch of players on steroids count?
For the life of me I don't understand Yankee fans trying to discredit everything from the steroid era (which would include their 3-4 championships), just to get Judge a record he otherwise shouldn't have. He had an incredible season and set the AL record for HRs. Enjoy it and quit bitching.
If you cannot see that individuals are completely different than teams, you are foolish. So basically you are saying, that while many players on all teams were 'roiding, only the Yankees gained the advantage. Only a jealous Mets fan would suggest something so ludicrous.
And beside Clemens, which Yankees were juicers of that 96-01 team. Pettitte did it on the Astros afterwards. Maybe Wetteland. The rest of that team was pretty "skinny" and they did it with no one hitting more than 28 HRs(IIRC). Is it possible the Yanks had more users then I listed - of course. But to say THEY only won because of juicing ignores the fact that it would then have to be likely every other teams' players weren't, which we know is false.
You are foolish to think that only a couple hitters were using steroids. Hate to break it to you, but that simply wasn't the case.
A quick google search shows A-Rod, Clemens, Pettitte, Wetteland, Giambi, Kevin Brown, Mike Stanton, Denny Neagle, Jason Grimsley, Jim Leyritz, Chuck Knoblauch, Velarde, Canseco, Glenallen Hill, David Justice, Rondell White, Gary Sheffield. Many of those players were on championship teams there.
So it is acceptable for a single player to use, and his stats should be completely delegitimized? Yet, it is perfectly acceptable for a team to have a bunch of players cheating, and their accomplishments are legit? What kind of bizarre logic is that?
(And for the record, I don't advocating taking away any player or team accomplishments. I just advocate against such blatant hypocrisy)
Because they are the yankees! Lol. Most entitled cry baby fanbase in sports. The dallas cowboys of baseball.
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In comment 15847991 KDavies said:
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math really isn't that hard. And why should only HRs not count during the steroid era? Why should championships of teams with a bunch of players on steroids count?
For the life of me I don't understand Yankee fans trying to discredit everything from the steroid era (which would include their 3-4 championships), just to get Judge a record he otherwise shouldn't have. He had an incredible season and set the AL record for HRs. Enjoy it and quit bitching.
If you cannot see that individuals are completely different than teams, you are foolish. So basically you are saying, that while many players on all teams were 'roiding, only the Yankees gained the advantage. Only a jealous Mets fan would suggest something so ludicrous.
And beside Clemens, which Yankees were juicers of that 96-01 team. Pettitte did it on the Astros afterwards. Maybe Wetteland. The rest of that team was pretty "skinny" and they did it with no one hitting more than 28 HRs(IIRC). Is it possible the Yanks had more users then I listed - of course. But to say THEY only won because of juicing ignores the fact that it would then have to be likely every other teams' players weren't, which we know is false.
You are foolish to think that only a couple hitters were using steroids. Hate to break it to you, but that simply wasn't the case.
A quick google search shows A-Rod, Clemens, Pettitte, Wetteland, Giambi, Kevin Brown, Mike Stanton, Denny Neagle, Jason Grimsley, Jim Leyritz, Chuck Knoblauch, Velarde, Canseco, Glenallen Hill, David Justice, Rondell White, Gary Sheffield. Many of those players were on championship teams there.
So it is acceptable for a single player to use, and his stats should be completely delegitimized? Yet, it is perfectly acceptable for a team to have a bunch of players cheating, and their accomplishments are legit? What kind of bizarre logic is that?
(And for the record, I don't advocating taking away any player or team accomplishments. I just advocate against such blatant hypocrisy)
Your logic is flawed. You said the Yanks are delegitimized because they may have had users while at the same time saying many players throughout the league used also...it is a team game, if we accept that many players of all teams used, then all teams were on equal grounds. If all teams had players that were using, then no one team has an advantage - it is a wash. You cannot say only one team had an advantage, pretty simple.
As for Bond, et al, I have always felt that they still had to hit the ball, which is still hard enough. That is why I say it is up to each baseball fan to decide who is the leader. Bonds hit 73. I do not like it, but he still did it. He never hit more than 49 in any other year.
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In comment 15848005 section125 said:
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In comment 15847991 KDavies said:
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math really isn't that hard. And why should only HRs not count during the steroid era? Why should championships of teams with a bunch of players on steroids count?
For the life of me I don't understand Yankee fans trying to discredit everything from the steroid era (which would include their 3-4 championships), just to get Judge a record he otherwise shouldn't have. He had an incredible season and set the AL record for HRs. Enjoy it and quit bitching.
If you cannot see that individuals are completely different than teams, you are foolish. So basically you are saying, that while many players on all teams were 'roiding, only the Yankees gained the advantage. Only a jealous Mets fan would suggest something so ludicrous.
And beside Clemens, which Yankees were juicers of that 96-01 team. Pettitte did it on the Astros afterwards. Maybe Wetteland. The rest of that team was pretty "skinny" and they did it with no one hitting more than 28 HRs(IIRC). Is it possible the Yanks had more users then I listed - of course. But to say THEY only won because of juicing ignores the fact that it would then have to be likely every other teams' players weren't, which we know is false.
You are foolish to think that only a couple hitters were using steroids. Hate to break it to you, but that simply wasn't the case.
A quick google search shows A-Rod, Clemens, Pettitte, Wetteland, Giambi, Kevin Brown, Mike Stanton, Denny Neagle, Jason Grimsley, Jim Leyritz, Chuck Knoblauch, Velarde, Canseco, Glenallen Hill, David Justice, Rondell White, Gary Sheffield. Many of those players were on championship teams there.
So it is acceptable for a single player to use, and his stats should be completely delegitimized? Yet, it is perfectly acceptable for a team to have a bunch of players cheating, and their accomplishments are legit? What kind of bizarre logic is that?
(And for the record, I don't advocating taking away any player or team accomplishments. I just advocate against such blatant hypocrisy)
Your logic is flawed. You said the Yanks are delegitimized because they may have had users while at the same time saying many players throughout the league used also...it is a team game, if we accept that many players of all teams used, then all teams were on equal grounds. If all teams had players that were using, then no one team has an advantage - it is a wash. You cannot say only one team had an advantage, pretty simple.
As for Bond, et al, I have always felt that they still had to hit the ball, which is still hard enough. That is why I say it is up to each baseball fan to decide who is the leader. Bonds hit 73. I do not like it, but he still did it. He never hit more than 49 in any other year.
Let me break it down to you simply: I don't think the Yankees are delegitimized. I specifically said that I don't believe any individual or team records should be taken away. What I was doing is pointing out the flaw in the logic in saying that Bonds' records are not legitimate (as if he were one of only a few hitters using), while arguing that the Yankees team accomplishments are legitimate, even though a crapton of players from those teams were using.
Let me break it down to you simply: I don't think the Yankees are delegitimized. I specifically said that I don't believe any individual or team records should be taken away. What I was doing is pointing out the flaw in the logic in saying that Bonds' records are not legitimate (as if he were one of only a few hitters using), while arguing that the Yankees team accomplishments are legitimate, even though a crapton of players from those teams were using. [/quote]
I ultimately agree, even if individual records are easier to achieve through chemical enhancement than team achievements. Bonds would have been great on any team and probably hits 80 if on the Yanks.
If you take Bonds 73 HR year and bring it back to his norm, about 45 HRs, he does not catch Aaron, but still hits 735/740.
Let me break it down to you simply: I don't think the Yankees are delegitimized. I specifically said that I don't believe any individual or team records should be taken away. What I was doing is pointing out the flaw in the logic in saying that Bonds' records are not legitimate (as if he were one of only a few hitters using), while arguing that the Yankees team accomplishments are legitimate, even though a crapton of players from those teams were using.
I ultimately agree, even if individual records are easier to achieve through chemical enhancement than team achievements. Bonds would have been great on any team and probably hits 80 if on the Yanks.
If you take Bonds 73 HR year and bring it back to his norm, about 45 HRs, he does not catch Aaron, but still hits 735/740. [/quote]
Based purely on Bonds HR history pre his roiding up...he comes nowhere close to 700
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math really isn't that hard. And why should only HRs not count during the steroid era? Why should championships of teams with a bunch of players on steroids count?
For the life of me I don't understand Yankee fans trying to discredit everything from the steroid era (which would include their 3-4 championships), just to get Judge a record he otherwise shouldn't have. He had an incredible season and set the AL record for HRs. Enjoy it and quit bitching.
If you cannot see that individuals are completely different than teams, you are foolish. So basically you are saying, that while many players on all teams were 'roiding, only the Yankees gained the advantage. Only a jealous Mets fan would suggest something so ludicrous.
And beside Clemens, which Yankees were juicers of that 96-01 team. Pettitte did it on the Astros afterwards. Maybe Wetteland. The rest of that team was pretty "skinny" and they did it with no one hitting more than 28 HRs(IIRC). Is it possible the Yanks had more users then I listed - of course. But to say THEY only won because of juicing ignores the fact that it would then have to be likely every other teams' players weren't, which we know is false.
Isn't that literally the same thing as saying that only Bonds (and McGwire and Sosa) derived an advantage from steroids when we know for a fact that many (most?) pitchers were also using during that era?
Ridiculously naive. I personally like the way the NFL handles it. Essentially says you can cruise on a low cycle of test year-round with its testing levels. Everything else we can try for and its your risk of getting caught. Generally the guys that caught are the ones that are abusing it. But at least it levels the playing field as there are only marginal benefits going above and beyond.
Shit I can name you three recent giants players right now that clearly spent their two months out of program gearing their balls off. The thing is those guys often end up getting hurt. Lorenzon Carter and Ojulari come to mind. Golden Tate needs HCG for pregnancy as a 30-year-old pro football player? Sure! Big Dex already got busted for Ostarine in college (which helps endurance) and all of a sudden dude can handle 90% of snaps, and looks as lean as he has since college, when he's been sucking wind on 50% of snaps and performing out of his mind in a contract year?
balls that are doubles or outs now were HRs
they couldnt even pitch to bonds it was so unfair
That's just how it is, and Bob Costas said it best "we have to accept it was the age of steroids".........
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Is that it seems to only apply to certain players accomplishments. There are players that have a blind eye turned to their steroid use (ex. Ortiz, David). Also, no one knows who is actually clean. I went to high school late 90s and at least a half dozen of my classmates took roids to play .500 high school football to think you know current players aren’t or haven’t used is beyond naive.
Ridiculously naive. I personally like the way the NFL handles it. Essentially says you can cruise on a low cycle of test year-round with its testing levels. Everything else we can try for and its your risk of getting caught. Generally the guys that caught are the ones that are abusing it. But at least it levels the playing field as there are only marginal benefits going above and beyond.
Shit I can name you three recent giants players right now that clearly spent their two months out of program gearing their balls off. The thing is those guys often end up getting hurt. Lorenzon Carter and Ojulari come to mind. Golden Tate needs HCG for pregnancy as a 30-year-old pro football player? Sure! Big Dex already got busted for Ostarine in college (which helps endurance) and all of a sudden dude can handle 90% of snaps, and looks as lean as he has since college, when he's been sucking wind on 50% of snaps and performing out of his mind in a contract year?
You guys are spot on about this. Recalls the peak of the Lance Armstrong era in cycling - poorly kept secret that most or all the best cyclists were doping, yet the Lance acolytes acted like any suggestion the one guy beating all of them for years wasn't clean was blasphemy.
Turns out everyone knew Lance was dirty, and they covered it up bc he was making everyone so much money.
Several years back I had 2 friends working in professional baseball, who used to share info about this and that. One's out of MLB now, the other promoted to a position so high he wouldn't share anything with me anymore.
Both said far more MLB players were on PEDs that anyone wanted to admit, and both named names of several prominent players that never got caught, but were widely know to be using PEDs too ( as in, they knew how they and other players were getting it and using it).
I won't name those names now, no point, but one was very popular and now a Hall of Famer, and people would lose their shit and attack me at any suggestion he wasn't clean
Point is, anyone vilifying Bonds, Clemens, ARod but assuming anyone else is clean is extremely naive.
As far as Bonds/Judge goes, Bonds hit 73. Judge is still the AL HR king and in baseball leading your league or holding a league record is still an important milestone even if its not the overall MLB record.
If you want to ignore Bonds, McGuire, and Sosa that's your own choice and I wouldn't hold it against you
I'm a diehard Yankees fan and Judge fan, and I love that he hit 62 HR.
But the downside of this record for MLB is that it forces the powers to be in the sport to once again have to field questions about the steroids era and the legitimacy of the MLB HR record.
As for Bonds, according to testimony during the BALCO scandal...
His jersey size grew from 42 to 52.
His hat size from 7 1/8 to 7 1/4.
His shoe size from 10 ½ to 13.
Bonds also gained at least 55 pounds since his days in Pittsburgh.
Athletes can gain weight without PEDs, but adult males do not suddenly increase their hat and shoe sizes, no matter how much weight they gain.
This was all started by the nerdy, virgin-tastic baseball writers during the late 90's Steroid era when guys like McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds were hitting a ton of HRs. And fans back then ate it up like the nerds that alot of baseball fans are.
I'm of the belief of, if you wanna use steroids/PEDs, use them. If you don't want to use them, then don't use them. But fans bringing certain players and even teams into is hilarious. Anything to run down the players and/or teams they're not a fan of.
I know that pitchers were taking to keep their arm strength up and fight thru the dead arm periods. I remember reading a story about a bullpen pitcher who pitched 3 straight days and on the 3rd day was still pumping it into the high 90s and everyone knew he was going a little overboard.
I think the issue with Bonds was that he was clearly a better player than 99% of his peers in the 90s. As steroids got more popular, Bonds saw guys coming closer to his level and decided that if everyone is doing it, he's going to level the playing field and his head doubled in size and he put up video game numbers. Bonds was a Hall of Famer before his steroid run ruined it.
Anyway, IMO, the guy who took the most shit unnecessarily was Giambi in the mid 2000s. As people came to grips on steroids, Giambi became the poster child and for nearly a good year was blasted by everyone while the other 100s of players hid and let him take all the arrows. I guess when you sign a massive free agent contract with the Yankees, that's part of the cost of doing business. But in such a crappy situation, I admired Giambi for not saying "You know what, screw all you people. You think I"m the only one doing this? It's everywhere." He shut up and just took the heat. Like when the Boston media saw Trot Nixon show up 30 pounds lighter and he said he gave up "cheese burgers" with a smile and a wink and they let it go.
The fuck they don't. My fitted hat size went up a size just from sitting on my ass during the initial Covid shutdown.
balls that are doubles or outs now were HRs
they couldnt even pitch to bonds it was so unfair
You're missing the point, no surprise there.
And beside Clemens, which Yankees were juicers of that 96-01 team. Pettitte did it on the Astros afterwards.
LOL! You think he only did it while on the Astros?!
If you believe that, I have this bridge to sell you...
Ruth set his then-MLB record (of 60) against an all-white league, with no night games (never mind day games after night games), and no air travel. Big advantage over Judge. Maris did it in an expansion year, with diluted pitching. Advantage over Judge. Sosa, McGwire and Bonds took steroids.
I agree that Judge's 62 might have been the most impressive of the records, because he hit 62 in modern conditions, against the best players, and there's no evidence that he's juicing. But in 60 years someone may look back at Judge and see a huge advantage we don't think about. I'm guessing most MLB fans didn't think much about Black players not being allowed. They probably just took it for granted, because that's how things were. Nor about day games, since night baseball wasn't a thing yet. Nor about travel.
If we're going to start throwing out old records, I'd favor throwing out every record from before they let the best players play. You could throw out every record before Jackie Robinson, or every record before the Red Sox integrated, or some arbitrary date in between. Never gonna happen, but that makes more sense to me than trying to define a "steroid era" (we're still in the steroid era) and choosing which records from that era count and which don't.
I am firmly in the camp that the Steroid Era was a joke and distorted the game of baseball. So, I do hold that against Bonds, Clemens, etc. And by MLB not doing something to adjust any of these records, shows, IMV, they were complicit in what was occurring.
But I'm not losing sleep over it because it is very complicated, especially with the HoF rewarding players who clearly used PEDs. By cherry picking which PED users get in and which don't, is a very bad look for the HoF.
I am firmly in the camp that the Steroid Era was a joke and distorted the game of baseball. So, I do hold that against Bonds, Clemens, etc. And by MLB not doing something to adjust any of these records, shows, IMV, they were complicit in what was occurring.
But I'm not losing sleep over it because it is very complicated, especially with the HoF rewarding players who clearly used PEDs. By cherry picking which PED users get in and which don't, is a very bad look for the HoF.
2) People may want to delineate a "steroid era
, but they are ignoring the fact that it was clearly not the first and likely not the last PED era. PEDs have come in many different forms for as long as the game has been played.
3) I completely get why people hate Bonds. He was a dick before, during, and after using. But, I really have no hatred for him or vitriol over his use. I kind of think he succeeded in proving his point. He may have started using for narcissistic reasons, but the bottom line is he was frustrated by the attention lesser players were getting while it was known they were using. He set out to show the league and media what it looks like when the best in the game uses.
4) Related to #3, one of the main reasons I don't hate Bonds is the selective outrage over certain players (Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens), accusations of others (Piazza and others), while completely and utterly ignoring clear use by some (namely Ortiz). Any writer, fan, or otherwise who complains about Bonds while supporting Ortiz for the HoF is full of shit and can fuck off, in my opinion.
5) The notion that the "steroid era" is over is also wrong. Just a few weeks ago, one of the biggest stars in the game was busted and suspended. If you think he is the only one using, you are naiive. The only difference between him and a lot of other players is he got caught.
6) I've said it many times - the ONLY player from the last 30 years who would absolutely shock me to learn was using at any time is Mariano Rivera.
7) I love Judge and my opinion is he is clean. But, that is based on what exactly? I don't know. Probably more hope than anything else. He could just as easily be using, like anyone else.
8) The eyeball test of a players body and/or growth is not 100% indicative of use or not use. There are different products taken for different purposes and results vary on the type of training done and the timing of usage. We are not in position to assume anyone is clean or dirty at this point.
Bonds didn't violate any existing rules. He didn't cheat. While I think less of Sosa and McGwire, they are in the same boat. Even once steroid use came to the forefront, MLB turned a blind eye for years before acting, as did the MLBPA. Both were complicit and continue to be so.
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I believe that Judge is now the all time single season HR king, others want to reward cheating and say its Bonds.
Reward cheating? Then why would you recognize Aaron, Mays, MAntle and others from their era for accomplishments when greenie usage, for example, was rampant? Or Ruth for his versions of PEDs? Or any other player? Hell, who knows how much DiMaggio's 10 cups of coffee impacted his play.
Bonds didn't violate any existing rules. He didn't cheat. While I think less of Sosa and McGwire, they are in the same boat. Even once steroid use came to the forefront, MLB turned a blind eye for years before acting, as did the MLBPA. Both were complicit and continue to be so.
Compiled by Bleacher Report:
"Based solely on appearances—i.e. players the size of houses and balls going over the fence at absurd rates—you'd think that steroids weren't against the rules in the 1990s.
They actually were.
In 1990, Congress cracked down on anabolic steroids with the Anabolic Steroids Control Act, which effectively made them an illegal drug. The next year in 1991, MLB Commissioner Fay Vincent made it clear in a memo that this was very much relevant to baseball.
Via ESPN.com:
The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players and personnel is strictly prohibited. Major League players or personnel involved in the possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to discipline by the Commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game…
This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription.
Like that, the league was put on notice that using steroids was against the rules. Any players who read the memo knew what the deal was."
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In comment 15848438 Snablats said:
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I believe that Judge is now the all time single season HR king, others want to reward cheating and say its Bonds.
Reward cheating? Then why would you recognize Aaron, Mays, MAntle and others from their era for accomplishments when greenie usage, for example, was rampant? Or Ruth for his versions of PEDs? Or any other player? Hell, who knows how much DiMaggio's 10 cups of coffee impacted his play.
Bonds didn't violate any existing rules. He didn't cheat. While I think less of Sosa and McGwire, they are in the same boat. Even once steroid use came to the forefront, MLB turned a blind eye for years before acting, as did the MLBPA. Both were complicit and continue to be so.
Compiled by Bleacher Report:
"Based solely on appearances—i.e. players the size of houses and balls going over the fence at absurd rates—you'd think that steroids weren't against the rules in the 1990s.
They actually were.
In 1990, Congress cracked down on anabolic steroids with the Anabolic Steroids Control Act, which effectively made them an illegal drug. The next year in 1991, MLB Commissioner Fay Vincent made it clear in a memo that this was very much relevant to baseball.
Via ESPN.com:
The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players and personnel is strictly prohibited. Major League players or personnel involved in the possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to discipline by the Commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game…
This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription.
Like that, the league was put on notice that using steroids was against the rules. Any players who read the memo knew what the deal was."
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of course pitchers used during that period....if any of them broke any records I would say the same thing...it seems that HRs were the biggest thing that benefitted from Roid use
balls that are doubles or outs now were HRs
they couldnt even pitch to bonds it was so unfair
You're missing the point, no surprise there.
Ok I will bite
What's the point...
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In comment 15848132 AG5686 said:
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of course pitchers used during that period....if any of them broke any records I would say the same thing...it seems that HRs were the biggest thing that benefitted from Roid use
balls that are doubles or outs now were HRs
they couldnt even pitch to bonds it was so unfair
You're missing the point, no surprise there.
Ok I will bite
What's the point...
Did Judge have to hit against any steroid-assisted pitchers?
So his task was easier, no?
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I believe that Judge is now the all time single season HR king, others want to reward cheating and say its Bonds.
Reward cheating? Then why would you recognize Aaron, Mays, MAntle and others from their era for accomplishments when greenie usage, for example, was rampant? Or Ruth for his versions of PEDs? Or any other player? Hell, who knows how much DiMaggio's 10 cups of coffee impacted his play.
Bonds didn't violate any existing rules. He didn't cheat. While I think less of Sosa and McGwire, they are in the same boat. Even once steroid use came to the forefront, MLB turned a blind eye for years before acting, as did the MLBPA. Both were complicit and continue to be so.
Very well said.
This was all started by the nerdy, virgin-tastic baseball writers during the late 90's Steroid era when guys like McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds were hitting a ton of HRs. And fans back then ate it up like the nerds that alot of baseball fans are.
I'm of the belief of, if you wanna use steroids/PEDs, use them. If you don't want to use them, then don't use them. But fans bringing certain players and even teams into is hilarious. Anything to run down the players and/or teams they're not a fan of.
Yup. They will use any bit of data that fits their narrative to try to make their point, while ignoring everything else.
It is sad that this is what society has become.
Did Judge have to hit against any steroid-assisted pitchers?
So his task was easier, no?
With the nosedive we see in hitting (nearly half the league hit 240 or <), I think we can contribute that to this newer age of baseball where teams can rotate more pitchers in a game that throw harder than ever.
It's really difficult to hit right now. Which is why, IMV, Judge's season is even more impressive.
I tend to agree. Hell, I believe Conseco basically confirmed that.
If you recall, steroids were a huge issue in track and field in the '80s (see Ben Johnon), so I would not be surprised at all if baseball players took an interest.
Vincent sent that memo in 1991. He was later quoted as saying.
On whether he had banned steroids as commissioner.
So just to clarify unequivocally -- steroids were not banned in MLB in 1991.
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Did Judge have to hit against any steroid-assisted pitchers?
So his task was easier, no?
With the nosedive we see in hitting (nearly half the league hit 240 or <), I think we can contribute that to this newer age of baseball where teams can rotate more pitchers in a game that throw harder than ever.
It's really difficult to hit right now. Which is why, IMV, Judge's season is even more impressive.
That's a separate issue entirely.
To the extent that PED-usage (steroids in particular) was so rampant and had such a beneficial effect for hitters like Bonds, it only stands to reason that it had a similarly beneficial effect for pitchers.
And none of the pitchers that Aaron Judge faced were enjoying that steroid-aided beneficial effect.
I grew up watching baseball in the 70's and the beauty of baseball was there were certain magical #s that stood out.
3000 plus hits,300 Wins etc....but the HR record was the king of them all.
I can remember years in the middle 70s when 38 HRs won the title for that particular year.
So any horseshit about greenies being PEDs is exactly that horseshit.
I hear folks throwing this shade out about players of the 50s 60s 70s and yet there is little to zero evidence that it aided them all that much,except maybe to wake them from the drunk the night before.
Just look at the numbers,guys at the top of the HR lists on a yearly basis were 40 sometimes 50...George Foster hitting 52 one year (1977???)was quite the feat at the time....
All of a sudden guys who NEVER hit 30 HRs before were hitting 50,60 HRs....this seemed so very unfair to me,because I enjoyed comparing HR hitters across generations,and this made it impossible.
There were certain mythical #s 660 for Willie Mays,511 for Mel Ott.
Henry Aaron had to deal with racist attacks from assholes as he took down Ruth.
Look at Aaron's individual years...he rarely was above 40 HRs....greenies be damned.
I have railed against this since the very beginings of Steroid Use in baseball...and the fact that the guy it effects the most now is a Yankee makes it even worse...
But I assure you I would be equally upset if the guy hitting 62 HR now was a Milwaukee Brewer.
McGuire had the guts to call up the Maris family to apologize for lying,and usering the roid era.
Bonds was a dick about it...
Either way,a quick look at Bonds' career #s show you what he did....the fact that it was legal/illegal,is franky irrelevant.
MLB screwed the pooch on it then,it's time for them to right the wrong.
Vincent sent that memo in 1991. He was later quoted as saying.
Quote:
The letter was ignored because it didn’t affect the players. They were thoroughly protected by collective bargaining. But I wanted to make a moral statement to them and legal one to everyone else. The union told them to ignore it. The only way a change could be made was through collective bargaining. The union argued that testing violated players’ civil liberties. The union had strong, bright lawyers who concocted a bulletproof legal argument.
On whether he had banned steroids as commissioner.
Quote:
I wanted to put pressure on the union to recognize I was correct. I failed; we tried and failed at the bargaining table, too. When I left baseball, there was no written policy on drug activity in baseball. It was pathetic, inept.
So just to clarify unequivocally -- steroids were not banned in MLB in 1991.
I remember the times well,the players union refused to test
John Kruk,a players rep at the time,deeply regretted the stance years later
Vincent sent that memo in 1991. He was later quoted as saying.
Quote:
The letter was ignored because it didn’t affect the players. They were thoroughly protected by collective bargaining. But I wanted to make a moral statement to them and legal one to everyone else. The union told them to ignore it. The only way a change could be made was through collective bargaining. The union argued that testing violated players’ civil liberties. The union had strong, bright lawyers who concocted a bulletproof legal argument.
On whether he had banned steroids as commissioner.
Quote:
I wanted to put pressure on the union to recognize I was correct. I failed; we tried and failed at the bargaining table, too. When I left baseball, there was no written policy on drug activity in baseball. It was pathetic, inept.
So just to clarify unequivocally -- steroids were not banned in MLB in 1991.
The players through that memo were told not to use them, that if this was illegal by federal law then it was illegal to be in baseball
If you are using a substance that was illegal to have, then you know you arent supposed to use it
The players knew they werent supposed to use it, but they did anyway
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In comment 15848609 Gatorade Dunk said:
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Did Judge have to hit against any steroid-assisted pitchers?
So his task was easier, no?
With the nosedive we see in hitting (nearly half the league hit 240 or <), I think we can contribute that to this newer age of baseball where teams can rotate more pitchers in a game that throw harder than ever.
It's really difficult to hit right now. Which is why, IMV, Judge's season is even more impressive.
That's a separate issue entirely.
To the extent that PED-usage (steroids in particular) was so rampant and had such a beneficial effect for hitters like Bonds, it only stands to reason that it had a similarly beneficial effect for pitchers.
And none of the pitchers that Aaron Judge faced were enjoying that steroid-aided beneficial effect.
I do not believe it does stand to reason...name a pitcher that benefitted from it?
Even further,name one that was able to achieve either a single season or life time record,at the expense of past greats,due soley to his steroid use
For some reason it didnt aid pitchers as much.
Clemens comes to mind,and we all know what happened to that idiot.
Im sure Nolan Ryan would love to get him in an alley somewhere
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In comment 15848624 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15848609 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
Did Judge have to hit against any steroid-assisted pitchers?
So his task was easier, no?
With the nosedive we see in hitting (nearly half the league hit 240 or <), I think we can contribute that to this newer age of baseball where teams can rotate more pitchers in a game that throw harder than ever.
It's really difficult to hit right now. Which is why, IMV, Judge's season is even more impressive.
That's a separate issue entirely.
To the extent that PED-usage (steroids in particular) was so rampant and had such a beneficial effect for hitters like Bonds, it only stands to reason that it had a similarly beneficial effect for pitchers.
And none of the pitchers that Aaron Judge faced were enjoying that steroid-aided beneficial effect.
I do not believe it does stand to reason...name a pitcher that benefitted from it?
Even further,name one that was able to achieve either a single season or life time record,at the expense of past greats,due soley to his steroid use
For some reason it didnt aid pitchers as much.
Clemens comes to mind,and we all know what happened to that idiot.
Im sure Nolan Ryan would love to get him in an alley somewhere
You have no idea how much steroids enhanced the performance of pitchers. It stands to reason that they would not have used steroids if they did not see any benefit.
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In comment 15848637 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15848624 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15848609 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
Did Judge have to hit against any steroid-assisted pitchers?
So his task was easier, no?
With the nosedive we see in hitting (nearly half the league hit 240 or <), I think we can contribute that to this newer age of baseball where teams can rotate more pitchers in a game that throw harder than ever.
It's really difficult to hit right now. Which is why, IMV, Judge's season is even more impressive.
That's a separate issue entirely.
To the extent that PED-usage (steroids in particular) was so rampant and had such a beneficial effect for hitters like Bonds, it only stands to reason that it had a similarly beneficial effect for pitchers.
And none of the pitchers that Aaron Judge faced were enjoying that steroid-aided beneficial effect.
I do not believe it does stand to reason...name a pitcher that benefitted from it?
Even further,name one that was able to achieve either a single season or life time record,at the expense of past greats,due soley to his steroid use
For some reason it didnt aid pitchers as much.
Clemens comes to mind,and we all know what happened to that idiot.
Im sure Nolan Ryan would love to get him in an alley somewhere
You have no idea how much steroids enhanced the performance of pitchers. It stands to reason that they would not have used steroids if they did not see any benefit.
If it helped them so much,how did those jamokes all hit 60-70 HRs off em?
You have no evidence to support your position pal
You have no evidence to support your position pal
Your real name is Stan, isn't it...
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You have no evidence to support your position pal
Your real name is Stan, isn't it...
It's AG5686,dont bother even looking at my posts,ok?
I do not believe it does stand to reason...name a pitcher that benefitted from it?
Even further,name one that was able to achieve either a single season or life time record,at the expense of past greats,due soley to his steroid use
For some reason it didnt aid pitchers as much.
Clemens comes to mind,and we all know what happened to that idiot.
Im sure Nolan Ryan would love to get him in an alley somewhere
One of the advantages of PED is recovery. So, that would seem to be an enticing reason to use PEDs if you were a pitcher.
Quote:
I do not believe it does stand to reason...name a pitcher that benefitted from it?
Even further,name one that was able to achieve either a single season or life time record,at the expense of past greats,due soley to his steroid use
For some reason it didnt aid pitchers as much.
Clemens comes to mind,and we all know what happened to that idiot.
Im sure Nolan Ryan would love to get him in an alley somewhere
One of the advantages of PED is recovery. So, that would seem to be an enticing reason to use PEDs if you were a pitcher.
yes that is 100% true,its why Pettie was drawn to it...but I haven't seen numberical evidence showing how it aided and abetted the pitchers numbers,either single season or career the way it did for Bonds and McGuire-even a guy like Palmero.
Can you name a pitcher you are thinking of?
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In comment 15848671 AG5686 said:
Quote:
I do not believe it does stand to reason...name a pitcher that benefitted from it?
Even further,name one that was able to achieve either a single season or life time record,at the expense of past greats,due soley to his steroid use
For some reason it didnt aid pitchers as much.
Clemens comes to mind,and we all know what happened to that idiot.
Im sure Nolan Ryan would love to get him in an alley somewhere
One of the advantages of PED is recovery. So, that would seem to be an enticing reason to use PEDs if you were a pitcher.
yes that is 100% true,its why Pettie was drawn to it...but I haven't seen numberical evidence showing how it aided and abetted the pitchers numbers,either single season or career the way it did for Bonds and McGuire-even a guy like Palmero.
Can you name a pitcher you are thinking of?
Additionally, the way the game is played has changed. Players are now being asked to forego contact and almost exclusively swing for the fences.
So does the addition of maple Bata, for that matter.
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In comment 15848715 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15848671 AG5686 said:
Quote:
I do not believe it does stand to reason...name a pitcher that benefitted from it?
Even further,name one that was able to achieve either a single season or life time record,at the expense of past greats,due soley to his steroid use
For some reason it didnt aid pitchers as much.
Clemens comes to mind,and we all know what happened to that idiot.
Im sure Nolan Ryan would love to get him in an alley somewhere
One of the advantages of PED is recovery. So, that would seem to be an enticing reason to use PEDs if you were a pitcher.
yes that is 100% true,its why Pettie was drawn to it...but I haven't seen numberical evidence showing how it aided and abetted the pitchers numbers,either single season or career the way it did for Bonds and McGuire-even a guy like Palmero.
Can you name a pitcher you are thinking of?
Pettitte is the first that came to mind and immediately. Clemens, by some accounts, was done until he started using.
agreed
Clemens was done done done,thats why the Red Sox let him go.
I hate the fact that Clemens is a part of Yankee history,AROID too....
As far as I am concerned their records and achievements mean nothing....and if Clemens held a Career or Single Season record over a clean guy from the past,id be pounding my fist on the table about his usage too....
Additionally, the way the game is played has changed. Players are now being asked to forego contact and almost exclusively swing for the fences.
I am not dismissing them,the numbers speak for themselves.
give me a period of time...ill show you a time when 40 or even 50 HRs in 1 season was alot
Additionally, the way the game is played has changed. Players are now being asked to forego contact and almost exclusively swing for the fences.
I'll add other factors that have contributed to increased hproduction for this era. Training methods. Higher salaries allowing players to focus 100%on baseball and not have to work other jobs in the off season. Huge advancements in video and data accessibility.
You want to believe greenies didn't help because top HR hitter didn't routinely hit over 50, go ahead. But, it's
nowhere near that simple. And if you don't think guys like Mantle, Mays, and Aaron would be hitting well over 50 every year if they played now, I think you are seriously mistaken.
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In comment 15848671 AG5686 said:
Quote:
I do not believe it does stand to reason...name a pitcher that benefitted from it?
Even further,name one that was able to achieve either a single season or life time record,at the expense of past greats,due soley to his steroid use
For some reason it didnt aid pitchers as much.
Clemens comes to mind,and we all know what happened to that idiot.
Im sure Nolan Ryan would love to get him in an alley somewhere
One of the advantages of PED is recovery. So, that would seem to be an enticing reason to use PEDs if you were a pitcher.
yes that is 100% true,its why Pettie was drawn to it...but I haven't seen numberical evidence showing how it aided and abetted the pitchers numbers,either single season or career the way it did for Bonds and McGuire-even a guy like Palmero.
Can you name a pitcher you are thinking of?
You not seeing "numberical evidence" doesn't mean that your point is valid. Go prove your own point. Until then, basic logic dictates that if the steroid era hitters were gaining a benefit from using PEDs of that era, then so too were the pitchers of that era who used.
All of these arguments go both ways. Ruth played pre-integration, but also pre-expansion. Maris played a 162-game schedule, but the travel schedule was much more strenuous for players than it was in Ruth's era.
And so it goes for this argument: if you want to credit Judge for his accomplishment without steroids, you should at least acknowledge that he didn't have to face any steroid-aided pitchers, either. Unless you have no interest in intellectual honesty; that's up to you.
One of the advantages of PED is recovery. So, that would seem to be an enticing reason to use PEDs if you were a pitcher.
yes that is 100% true,its why Pettie was drawn to it...but I haven't seen numberical evidence showing how it aided and abetted the pitchers numbers,either single season or career the way it did for Bonds and McGuire-even a guy like Palmero.
Can you name a pitcher you are thinking of?
Candidly, I wouldn't rule anyone out in that era - Big Unit, Schilling, Pedro, Smoltz, Halladay, Gagne, etc.
Maybe the payoff was pitchers on PEDs kept the offensive numbers from being even more astronomical...?
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I don't know how you can immediately dismiss them. Also, those batters were facing illegal pitches and pitchers throwing from a higher mound. There are also many plausible allegations and evidence that balls have been juiced over the different periods of the last couple of decades. All contribute to a difference in HR totals. More recently, MLB bought Rawlings and no has control over quality of the balls. There have been some studies related to this.
Additionally, the way the game is played has changed. Players are now being asked to forego contact and almost exclusively swing for the fences.
Obviously, that was about greenies, not gredness. I don't think it's possible to measure the impact of any one PED over another, especially across eras. But, I think it is universally accepted at this point that greenies did help players. Again,by how much, who knows?
I'll add other factors that have contributed to increased hproduction for this era. Training methods. Higher salaries allowing players to focus 100%on baseball and not have to work other jobs in the off season. Huge advancements in video and data accessibility.
You want to believe greenies didn't help because top HR hitter didn't routinely hit over 50, go ahead. But, it's
nowhere near that simple. And if you don't think guys like Mantle, Mays, and Aaron would be hitting well over 50 every year if they played now, I think you are seriously mistaken.
Those guys of course would hit 50,during their prime,then would go back down to 30 or 40 or less.
I believe that about greenies,because the numbers said so...
look at the HR #s...
first off,awesome chopping it up with ya
Secondly....YOU JUST MADE MY POINT
LOL
that is the way baseball history was before the steroid era,and now after it....those are the numbers
Are you ok with that being the case?
i am not
Bonds vs. Gagne - ( New Window )
What lifetime record did his roid aided pitching knock down?
Or is your point that it helped pitchers too..because my response to that is look at the HR leaders during the 40s 50s 60s 70 80s...before stroid use,and now after 2010s 2020s...
Quote:
Judge is the standard-bearer.
Are you ok with that being the case?
i am not
Dear Slim, I wrote but you still ain't callin'
I left my cell, my pager, and my home phone at the bottom
I sent two letters back in autumn, you must not-a got 'em
There probably was a problem at the post office or somethin'
Sometimes I scribble addresses too sloppy when I jot 'em
But anyways, fuck it, what's been up man how's your daughter?
My girlfriend's pregnant too, I'm 'bout to be a father
If I have a daughter, guess what I'ma call her?
I'ma name her Bonnie
I read about your Uncle Ronnie too I'm sorry
I had a friend kill himself over some bitch who didn't want him
I know you probably hear this everyday, but I'm your biggest fan
I even got the underground shit that you did with Skam
I got a room full of your posters and your pictures man
I like the shit you did with Rawkus too, that shit was fat
Anyways, I hope you get this man, hit me back
Just to chat, truly yours, your biggest fan
This is Stan
Thanks GD,I haven't seen that at bat before
Gagne,had good control and movement on his fastball...Bonds just wore him down....
All Bonds needed to do back then was square the ball up...
look at him in 1992 and best he does with that 100 mph fastball is a double in the gap or a fly ball to the warning track
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In comment 15848774 BlackLight said:
Quote:
Judge is the standard-bearer.
Are you ok with that being the case?
i am not
Dear Slim, I wrote but you still ain't callin'
I left my cell, my pager, and my home phone at the bottom
I sent two letters back in autumn, you must not-a got 'em
There probably was a problem at the post office or somethin'
Sometimes I scribble addresses too sloppy when I jot 'em
But anyways, fuck it, what's been up man how's your daughter?
My girlfriend's pregnant too, I'm 'bout to be a father
If I have a daughter, guess what I'ma call her?
I'ma name her Bonnie
I read about your Uncle Ronnie too I'm sorry
I had a friend kill himself over some bitch who didn't want him
I know you probably hear this everyday, but I'm your biggest fan
I even got the underground shit that you did with Skam
I got a room full of your posters and your pictures man
I like the shit you did with Rawkus too, that shit was fat
Anyways, I hope you get this man, hit me back
Just to chat, truly yours, your biggest fan
This is Stan
Who Who..I really wanna know
who are the fuck are you you you....
Quote:
What lifetime record did his roid aided pitching knock down?
Or is your point that it helped pitchers too..because my response to that is look at the HR leaders during the 40s 50s 60s 70 80s...before stroid use,and now after 2010s 2020s...
Your fixation with the records instead of the performance is your own issue. Do you think Brady Anderson's 50 HR season is legitimate just because it didn't break any records?
If you're going to take issue with the steroid era causing illegitimate records, shouldn't you also take issue with all of the inflated stats of that era? And if you're going to take issue with the inflated stats, shouldn't you take issue with the enhanced performance that caused the inflated stats? And if you're going to take issue with the enhanced performance, you must recognize that players of that era also had to face enhanced competition; the chemical assistance was not a one-way street.
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In comment 15848782 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
What lifetime record did his roid aided pitching knock down?
Or is your point that it helped pitchers too..because my response to that is look at the HR leaders during the 40s 50s 60s 70 80s...before stroid use,and now after 2010s 2020s...
Your fixation with the records instead of the performance is your own issue. Do you think Brady Anderson's 50 HR season is legitimate just because it didn't break any records?
If you're going to take issue with the steroid era causing illegitimate records, shouldn't you also take issue with all of the inflated stats of that era? And if you're going to take issue with the inflated stats, shouldn't you take issue with the enhanced performance that caused the inflated stats? And if you're going to take issue with the enhanced performance, you must recognize that players of that era also had to face enhanced competition; the chemical assistance was not a one-way street.
Brady Anderson is a perfect example,the only difference is he didn't break any all time records,otherwise I would be yapping about him.
Which inflated stats are you referring to?
The Gagne Bonds at bat you posted kinda made my point...
Gagne could have thrown it 110 mph.....and roided for days
All Bonds had to do was square it up
Look at the HR kings per season in any era its 40ish
Bonds Sosa McGuire et al
they all hit 60 plus
I don't see any evidence that it helped pitchers during a game
Quote:
(throwing out 2020), the MLB HR leader was in the 40s. 2 were in the 50s and then Judge this year. The only anomaly is Judge's 62.
first off,awesome chopping it up with ya
Secondly....YOU JUST MADE MY POINT
LOL
that is the way baseball history was before the steroid era,and now after it....those are the numbers
Quote:
Mantle used PEDs.
I don't believe that for a second. Mantle had farmer's strength.
The players through that memo were told not to use them, that if this was illegal by federal law then it was illegal to be in baseball
If you are using a substance that was illegal to have, then you know you arent supposed to use it
The players knew they werent supposed to use it, but they did anyway
They were told not to do it, by a guy who admits he had no authority to tell them what to do.
The rules in baseball aren't established by decree of the commissioner. They are collectively bargained between the players union and the league.
Whether the players broke a federal law is between the US government and the player.
This is crystal, unequivocally clear. There was no rule against PEDs in 1991. There was no rule against it until the 2000s.
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I love Bonds-who I detest-isn't in Cooperstown, but Selig-who turned a blind eye to the steroid era-is. Personally, I think all the steroid guys should be in. Put an asterisk or whatever, but isn't a HOF supposed to tell the story of the game? How do you do that without including someone like Bonds?
Well said. He is the best of his era. If you accept lesser players from that era who are known to have used, then you have to accept all.
for what its worth,none of them should be in....Ortiz included
IMHO
& this is coming from someone who detests Bonds. Detests him. From all accounts, he's a first class prick. But he should be in the HOF.
Link - ( New Window )
& this is coming from someone who detests Bonds. Detests him. From all accounts, he's a first class prick. But he should be in the HOF.
The HOF discussion is a different one,the issue I am harping on has to do with who the HR King is.
But I do not think anyone who used,then lied about it should be in the Hall.
It would be one thing if Bonds did it,then said I only did it because everyone else did.
But he didn't....he basically thumbed his nose at baseball.
Now he wants us to forgive and forget.....
If Bonds never roids,he would be a first ballot HOFer no doubt.....but he did.
This is the price he pays...
If you're being honest the answer is probably no, you wouldn't care (I hate to assume, but I can't imagine someone caring this much about something like this), which should tell you that it isn't as important or relevant as you think.
If you're being honest the answer is probably no, you wouldn't care (I hate to assume, but I can't imagine someone caring this much about something like this), which should tell you that it isn't as important or relevant as you think.
Bro...Ive been upset about this for decades....now its messed up my guys rightfull place.
wow he is in rare form there!!!