but no. Maybe... MAYBE you tag him to hold it over a year (even though he's not worth it) given we probably still have another year to get the cap under control, but I would love to see Daboll and Shoen have their pick of who they want to mold going forward.
I wouldn't tag him as it would be $30 mil plus. I am enjoying his making lemonade out of lemons, but he isn't the answer going forward. He's a good guy and has been stepping in sh!t since he got here with no skill players and limited protection. Problem is he doesn't make anyone better nor has his processing improved. It's ok to enjoy what he's doing with his legs and say he's not the guy.
Fortunately for everyone it's up to Schoen and Dabs
It would of course matter how much the Jones’ camp would be asking for. Jones would just be a bridge to another quarterback for me if feasible. I would look to get a qb in the 23 draft
3-4 years 18 million per year. This guy seriously has had the worst supporting cast of any QB in the league. He’s a competitor and honestly he’s accurate when given time. I think Shurmur knew how to use him best though.
But i trust this staff to make the right decision
If they don’t think they can get a guy to develop in the 2023 draft I think he’s worth 2 years/20 mil
I hope they like him enough to sign him for a longer term $15 mil/year so they can draft another important piece and manage the cap
Best guess - they cut ties and pick a guy they can develop
His best attribute is also what causes him to miss games
But you never see those kind of devotions. It makes zero sense to bring him back at any cost. He's one of the worst starting QBs in the league. And if we need a guy who can play at a backup level, there are many guys of his caliber that change teams every year.
We have a draft position in the mid 20s, so zero shot at drafting the top 3-4 QB. As of today, per your stipulation, I don’t see another QB in the draft that offers upside higher than DJ. Also as of today, Lamar Jackson is the only FA QB worth a shot, but Baltimore isn’t going to balk at tagging him. So yes, I’ll negotiate in probably $12-15M range, 2-3 years.
I didn't feel compelled to adjust for the excuse variables.
The object is to have a great QB, or at the very least a very good one.
So, even if you bastardize the numbers to account for the excuse variables, the answer is clearly no.
You left out rushing TDs. Did you leave that out as part of the excuse category?
And no, I’m not a Jones guy. But I would offer him a low end contract for two years and see if he bites. Like 18 mil per year area. Where we would be picking based on our record we won’t have a shot at the top guys.
1) No to a 5 year triple digit million contract with half or more guaranteed
2) No to $30M+ franchise tag
3) Maybe to Transition Tag IF that exists / is an option
4) Yes to a 2 yr $40M incentive laden contract IF he / his agent would agree
You left out rushing TDs. Did you leave that out as part of the excuse category?
And no, I’m not a Jones guy. But I would offer him a low end contract for two years and see if he bites. Like 18 mil per year area. Where we would be picking based on our record we won’t have a shot at the top guys.
That's a fair point, and I thought about it. And, no, rushing yards are not part of the basket of excuses.
But Jones is not enough of dynamic rushing threat like an LJax to move the needle for me to sign him.
If we could get a cheap deal as a back-up, then I'm more interested.
We have a draft position in the mid 20s, so zero shot at drafting the top 3-4 QB. As of today, per your stipulation, I don’t see another QB in the draft that offers upside higher than DJ. Also as of today, Lamar Jackson is the only FA QB worth a shot, but Baltimore isn’t going to balk at tagging him. So yes, I’ll negotiate in probably $12-15M range, 2-3 years.
Of course that list is going to fluctuate quite a bit, but who would rather have a 5th year of Jones than the 4th or 5th guy on that list?
And yes, all them clearly have more UPSIDE than Jones.
Of course "definitely better" than Jones has been in 3.5 years is always hard to predict with the draft, but by the same token Jones performance to date isn't hard to top. His numbers are on par with Trubisky, whom everyone agrees is a bust.
Hopefully we get some guys back and BD gets a good look. Based on draft, Jones and whatever else in on the market make a decision from that point. 1st round pick starts. 2nd-4th round then sign the best available QB as expectation should be to win while that QB learns is evaluated as a potential solution.
If that does not work keep looking for the next QB. Winning will allow BD to have that chance.
Not worth the money. Get hurt too often. More of a runner than a passer. After 4 years we know what he is. Not worth a second contract. Especially with all of our needs.
If DJ isn’t in blue next year can almost lock him into Tampa Bay
You’re probably not going to get an immediate upgrade in free agency unless you think Rogers or Garoppolo is coming here. I’m not even sure Garoppolo is an upgrade, but I digress. We could draft a guy but does that mean we have to let jones walk? Then there’s the talk of a franchise tag which to me is premature. Let’s say Jones keeps up this play and the team goes 9 -8, Is some team next spring offering Jones a whopper of a deal? Why can’t we get jones on a relatively cheap 1-2 year deal and draft a qb?
Dont see a need for a ft talk just yet but if jones kicks ass here over the next 3 months, by all means, he’s done little to nothing to really complain about this season. Let’s be honest.
I think we know what we have in him. Can he be better with a better surrounding cast? It's possible, but he has shown nothing to think it's a given. Unless he agreed to a 2nd contract at the same rate as his rookie deal, which we know is not happening, then I wouldn't re-sign him and I definitely wouldn't tag him. Let another team overpay for the right to continue to see what they have in him.
RE: Stroud, Young, Levis, Hooker, Ward, Richardson etc.
Of course that list is going to fluctuate quite a bit, but who would rather have a 5th year of Jones than the 4th or 5th guy on that list?
And yes, all them clearly have more UPSIDE than Jones.
Of course "definitely better" than Jones has been in 3.5 years is always hard to predict with the draft, but by the same token Jones performance to date isn't hard to top. His numbers are on par with Trubisky, whom everyone agrees is a bust.
Good post.
This 2023 QB class is fascinating. There have been so many developments and we're only five weeks into the season. Van Dyke has the yips. Anthony Richardson looks very physically gifted but is raw plus. Levis had a tragically bad 4th quarter last week in a very winnable game at Ole Miss. Hooker may be the most underrated prospect in the draft. DJU seems to have found his game again at Clemson. McCall continues to be underrated. Hartman is a game and produces a lot of points. I think I'm the only guy outside of Kentucky who finds Malik Cunningham to be an interesting prospect. Will Rodgers is playing out of his mind.
Of course that list is going to fluctuate quite a bit, but who would rather have a 5th year of Jones than the 4th or 5th guy on that list?
And yes, all them clearly have more UPSIDE than Jones.
Of course "definitely better" than Jones has been in 3.5 years is always hard to predict with the draft, but by the same token Jones performance to date isn't hard to top. His numbers are on par with Trubisky, whom everyone agrees is a bust.
And the talent around Jones has been what exactly to make an informed opinion?
Yeah i thought so
RE: RE: Stroud, Young, Levis, Hooker, Ward, Richardson etc.
Of course that list is going to fluctuate quite a bit, but who would rather have a 5th year of Jones than the 4th or 5th guy on that list?
And yes, all them clearly have more UPSIDE than Jones.
Of course "definitely better" than Jones has been in 3.5 years is always hard to predict with the draft, but by the same token Jones performance to date isn't hard to top. His numbers are on par with Trubisky, whom everyone agrees is a bust.
And the talent around Jones has been what exactly to make an informed opinion?
Yeah i thought so
I'd rather have the rookie. 4-5 years at a much hceaper price tag is better than 1-3 more at a grossly overpriced tag for similar output.
I think a healthy Daniel Jones can win games. I believe he’s 7-4 in his last eleven decisions, for a team that’s 0-7 in other games over that stretch, with probably the worst roster in the league. (Week 5 2021 vs. Dallas is tricky; Giants tied the game on the play after Jones was knocked out, then got steamrolled. So by baseball rules, Glennon gets the loss, though the Giant defense was more responsible.)
We tend to think of Tyrod Taylor as the 2023 stopgap, and in a sense, he is. But maybe the combination of Jones and Taylor is worth retaining for another year, if the price for Jones reflects his mediocre performance and the high likelihood that his backup will have to play at some point. Fortunately, the team has at least thirteen more games to assess the resilts of the pairing.
RE: RE: RE: Well, let's prorate Jones's current numbers...
You left out rushing TDs. Did you leave that out as part of the excuse category?
And no, I’m not a Jones guy. But I would offer him a low end contract for two years and see if he bites. Like 18 mil per year area. Where we would be picking based on our record we won’t have a shot at the top guys.
That's a fair point, and I thought about it. And, no, rushing yards are not part of the basket of excuses.
But Jones is not enough of dynamic rushing threat like an LJax to move the needle for me to sign him.
If we could get a cheap deal as a back-up, then I'm more interested.
I think this is where we are headed. We make him a low/modest two year offer at season end. If he bites then we use him while we search or develop another QB. And if somehow the lights go on for him in that time then we dish the rookie for decent comp.
Why can’t we get jones on a relatively cheap 1-2 year deal and draft a qb?
Carson Wentz went 9-8 with the Colts last year with OK productivity, and the Commandets traded two third round picks for the right to pay him 29M this year. It only takes one team dead set on being average, for Jones to get a big number.
Yes. The talent around Jones hasn’t been great. Neither has Jones! The two don’t have to be mutually exclusive!
What a stupid comment. More idiotic Quack Quack from you.
SO you're going to say the talent around him "hasn't been GREAT?" Just wow!!!! USing the word "Great" to minimize what they actually were. Can you be any more transparent?
His OLINe has SUCKED. Name one OL last year that has gone on and is doing well?
His Wide Receivers sucked. As did his TE. NO receivers or or TE's that have left are doing well. Engram is afloat and that's it.
And until this year there has been no real Barkley.
************And the coaching staff has sucked.
==========
A shitty coaching staff, a shitty OL, Shitty Wr's and Tight Ends, and a RB that has been hurt a ton so we've had to use backup RB's that are nothing for nay other team--
IF IF IF Jones was mediocre for argument's sake-- how do you think he's going to perform?????????????
=================
A young mediocre QB (for argument's sake) is Going to RISE above ShItty Coaching,
Shitty OL play,
SHITTY Wide Receivers and Tight Ends
And SHITTY backup RB's now all but out of the NFL????????
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Please stop the nonsense. But yeah your comment "The other surrounding player's weren't "GREAT>" LMAO at your attempt to minimize things.
Why can’t we get jones on a relatively cheap 1-2 year deal and draft a qb?
Carson Wentz went 9-8 with the Colts last year with OK productivity, and the Commandets traded two third round picks for the right to pay him 29M this year. It only takes one team dead set on being average, for Jones to get a big number.
Where do you think the Giants are going to be next year with or without Jones?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Well, let's prorate Jones's current numbers...
I think this is where we are headed. We make him a low/modest two year offer at season end. If he bites then we use him while we search or develop another QB. And if somehow the lights go on for him in that time then we dish the rookie for decent comp.
A year FT if he continues to trend higher as he has done the past 2 weeks. Giants aren't going anywhere next year.
The Green Bay game will again make it apparent that the Defense isn't very good and ofc the Offense has huge problems including or excluding Jones.
Carson Wentz went 9-8 with the Colts last year with OK productivity, and the Commandets traded two third round picks for the right to pay him 29M this year. It only takes one team dead set on being average, for Jones to get a big number.
Where do you think the Giants are going to be next year with or without Jones?
I think the Giants will have an opportunity to upgrade the position in the draft.
Carson Wentz went 9-8 with the Colts last year with OK productivity, and the Commandets traded two third round picks for the right to pay him 29M this year. It only takes one team dead set on being average, for Jones to get a big number.
Where do you think the Giants are going to be next year with or without Jones?
I think the Giants will have an opportunity to upgrade the position in the draft.
So if you were to guess - you expect a shitty 2023 NFL season in terms of record? Because SB is gone too, right?
But based on his play up til now probably not. But it would depend on whether they see a quarterback who they believe is s at least as good on a rookie contract.
RE: The Giants are definitely going to sign him IMHO
But based on his play up til now probably not. But it would depend on whether they see a quarterback who they believe is s at least as good on a rookie contract.
You kind of made my point in an another thread. You said the drop off from Dak to Cooper Rush was not significant. Imagine paying Dak all that money to come to the conclusion that the back up is pretty much the same? I agree with you and that’s my issue with keeping Jones. It’s economics.
no. We only played 4 games and he's already hurt again. That doesn't even factor in that he has serious flaws. I like him and want him to do great, but I don't see that happening. Unfortunately for him he got drafted by an organization at a time when they couldn't do anything right surrounding him with no line, weapons, and a new offense every other year. Maybe he goes on to have an Alex Smith type career, but I wouldn't bet the contract he expects on it
Where do you think the Giants are going to be next year with or without Jones?
I think the Giants will have an opportunity to upgrade the position in the draft.
So if you were to guess - you expect a shitty 2023 NFL season in terms of record? Because SB is gone too, right?
And we'll get a top 10 pick in 2023 draft?
Or a late 1st round/ 2nd round pick in 2023?
Nope. I think Barkley gets franchised. I think the Giants can pick a QB in the 2023 draft who can do what Jones is doing, for a lot less salary.
What did you say "Nope" to?
Are you saying you think Giants cna get a 3rd round QB or later rounds that does hwat Jones is doing?
***And you think Sy is flat out wrong at this point when he says "He can do it."
And you think his quote when he says below is flat out wrong? It's okay if you do. Just asking.
"It can be very hard to accurately evaluate a performance like this one. Listen to any quarterback talk about Jones and they will tell you it is almost impossible to play a normal version of the position in that kind of environment. If anything, I actually put this game in the “positive pile” when thinking about where his status will reside in January."
JS/MK may also make some adjustments to how they build the team. Here they have two OT's one of which is establishing himself as a dominant LT. The other has the ability to be a dominant run blocking RT. They are having to move the ball differently then they expected. Improve the interior a bit the can have a upper tier OL across the board. This gives some flexibility in QB choice imv. Set your team to need more of a manager initially. Dak had a scenario like this. Build from there.
If they win 7 plus games doubt they have a chance to get one of the top guys they like. Round one he is gone. Later pick you consider a shorter contract. BD already said what he looks for. QB who can process and make decisions under pressure.
Last year most of the QBGC was calling for Willis at pick 5. The NFL did not agree. It's a real hard spot to get right. Most won't come close to realizing expectations. Make a mistake somebody else picks the next one imv.
***And you think Sy is flat out wrong at this point when he says "He can do it."
And you think his quote when he says below is flat out wrong? It's okay if you do. Just asking.
"It can be very hard to accurately evaluate a performance like this one. Listen to any quarterback talk about Jones and they will tell you it is almost impossible to play a normal version of the position in that kind of environment. If anything, I actually put this game in the “positive pile” when thinking about where his status will reside in January."
What about these Sy quotes?
Quote:
The ceiling being a guy who absolutely needs the team around him to be top notch. This is a tough kind of player to plan around when it comes to long term finances. Tannehill has the biggest cap number in the NFL ($38.6 million). And the team just drafted Malik Willis in round 3. They will be looking at a tough decision next offseason. Pay him the 5th-most among all QBs or take the $18 million cap hit to release him. In terms of dollars spent and production he creates, the value is poor. [quote]
[Watching from the birds eye, Jones simply did not see open targets or he was too hesitant to let it rip. I say that from the comfort of my chair, whereas he had multiple elite, enormous athletes bearing down on him trying to rip his head off behind a shaky offensive line. But at some point, and Brian Daboll has stated this as well, Jones will need to alter his mindset. There is too much hesitation in his game, and it almost cost the team. Sure, he is playing with a sub-par group of pass catchers, but he needs to be more aggressive.
Jones is not a starting QB you can win with. Why people can’t see that 4 years in and want to waste more years and more cap space on him is insane. If he played any other position on this team or had any minor character flaw the same people supporting him would be running him out of town.
We're only a quarter through the NFL, and a touch more through the college season. Where the Giants pick, and who the process avails as viable prospects is simply undetermined.
Schoen witnessed first hand how a team coming off a surprising playoff bid can move up in the draft and get the best player, so I wouldn't rule anything out.
I also wouldn't rule out trading for a veteran if Schoen determines the team is closer than the W/L show.
Although he has played better so far this year than last, there is nothing I see that makes me think he will ever become even an above average starter in this league. Absolutely nothing.
I'm not franchising him. I can't believe someone suggested that., If he could be had for a reasonable deal (ie. 2 years and $35-40 million), then yes. I would also have no objection to taking a rookie QB as well as re-signing Jones to see if they can upgrade the position.
[Watching from the birds eye, Jones simply did not see open targets or he was too hesitant to let it rip. I say that from the comfort of my chair, whereas he had multiple elite, enormous athletes bearing down on him trying to rip his head off behind a shaky offensive line. But at some point, and Brian Daboll has stated this as well, Jones will need to alter his mindset. There is too much hesitation in his game, and it almost cost the team. Sure, he is playing with a sub-par group of pass catchers, but he needs to be more aggressive.
Jones is not a starting QB you can win with. Why people can’t see that 4 years in and want to waste more years and more cap space on him is insane. If he played any other position on this team or had any minor character flaw the same people supporting him would be running him out of town.
Your view imo is the not what he is saying. He didn't say signing Tannehill was a mistake as an isoalted sttaement which you are implyimng. The 1st two sentences are oppsoite of what you are saying:
-----------------------
"The ceiling being a guy who absolutely needs the team around him to be top notch. This is a tough kind of player to plan around when it comes to long term finances."
-----------------------
First off do you have the link for his full comments? No problem if you don't. But you are providing me his comments form either Carolina or Tennesse is my guess? I could be wrong.
1-- He is saying you can win if surrounding talent is top notch.
2-- He is saying for long-term success don't pay him an obscene long-term contract like Tennessee did to Tanehill.
=======================
None of this is saying that Jones is not a starting QB.
I'm not franchising him. I can't believe someone suggested that., If he could be had for a reasonable deal (ie. 2 years and $35-40 million), then yes. I would also have no objection to taking a rookie QB as well as re-signing Jones to see if they can upgrade the position.
At this moment I am not. But if he has a pretty good year why not for 1 year if you can't get the QB you want in the draft? Where do you think this team is going in 2023?
The QB is the most important position in football. If you are unsure of the evaluation and feel you need another year to evaluate - then whats the big deal for 1 year if you don't think you can get better?
If the Giants draft a QB and paly him right away in 2023, you think the Giants are a playoff team in 2023? SO where do you think we're going in 2023?
By this logic you would never draft a quarterback. Hell, by this logic we would never have drafted Jones in the first place! Who had more "warts" than he did as a top 6 QB pick?
I'll be interested to see how Levis, Hooker, and Ward stack up against Rosen in his draft year. Haskins was not a good prospect.
“Where do you think this team is going next year?”
They’re 3-1 right now and not many people expected that. Even if they end up only winning 6 games this year they in all likely hood will be better next year. They’d be even better with an upgrade at QB.
By this logic you would never draft a quarterback. Hell, by this logic we would never have drafted Jones in the first place! Who had more "warts" than he did as a top 6 QB pick?
I'll be interested to see how Levis, Hooker, and Ward stack up against Rosen in his draft year. Haskins was not a good prospect.
My comment was in response to someone saying that the 5th QB in this draft has more upside than Jones. Rosen was the 4th QB selected and Haskins the 3rd (I think). My point was only that the 5th QB could be a complete bust with less upside than Jones. Not that the Giants should be scared to select a QB in case he is a bust.
Ultimately, Schoen and Daboll were in Buffalo when Josh Allen was selected and developed. I have faith in them to make the correct decision, until they prove otherwise
RE: “Where do you think this team is going next year?”
They’re 3-1 right now and not many people expected that. Even if they end up only winning 6 games this year they in all likely hood will be better next year. They’d be even better with an upgrade at QB.
More than likely they won't be better if their schedule gets tougher.
The vegas line was 7.5 for Giants this year. Do you think they have a shot for 8 or 9 this year?
"Listen to any quarterback talk about Jones and they will tell you it is almost impossible to play a normal version of the position in that kind of environment. If anything, I actually put this game in the “positive pile” when thinking about where his status will reside in January."
By this logic you would never draft a quarterback. Hell, by this logic we would never have drafted Jones in the first place! Who had more "warts" than he did as a top 6 QB pick?
Indeed.
A lot of posters are taking this absurd position that you can't replace Jones unless there is a sure thing replacement.
And since you can ever guarantee that, especially with college prospects, Jones is essentially the QB unless we replace him with a known commodity super-star like a Rodgers, Allen, etc.
"Listen to any quarterback talk about Jones and they will tell you it is almost impossible to play a normal version of the position in that kind of environment. If anything, I actually put this game in the “positive pile” when thinking about where his status will reside in January."
You keep asking the Sy question but ignored my question about Sy’s other comments this year. Why’s that?
RE: RE: RE: I'd be interested in keeping him as the backup QB
"Listen to any quarterback talk about Jones and they will tell you it is almost impossible to play a normal version of the position in that kind of environment. If anything, I actually put this game in the “positive pile” when thinking about where his status will reside in January."
You keep asking the Sy question but ignored my question about Sy’s other comments this year. Why’s that?
I think this draft isn't as deep as once thought. Picking middle of the first, we might be better off grabbing a CB or WR. If Jones could be had for the prices of the 15th ranked QB in the league on a 3 year deal I likely would be on board.
By this logic you would never draft a quarterback. Hell, by this logic we would never have drafted Jones in the first place! Who had more "warts" than he did as a top 6 QB pick?
Indeed.
A lot of posters are taking this absurd position that you can't replace Jones unless there is a sure thing replacement.
And since you can ever guarantee that, especially with college prospects, Jones is essentially the QB unless we replace him with a known commodity super-star like a Rodgers, Allen, etc.
It's easy for you to sit behind a couch with an anonymous name and scream for guys like Wilson. Or want Trubisky instead of Jones etc - and if you are wrong you dont'; have to deal with the consequences.
and have a crappy draft pick. Bottom line you are asking us to extrapolate the Giants season over the next 13 games. If that is the case, the Giants will have 12-13 wins and they will be signing Jones to a huge deal.
I think I will wait to see what actually happens this year. The Giants will be lucky to be 4-4 over this next stretch of games. We don't know where we will be picking and how the 23 QB class looks.
I don't either. But why wouldn't you think this has something to do with our conversation?
If they have Jones this year and win 8 or 9 games and next year they win less, wouldn't it more than likely mean they have had a worse season?
Or are you going to suggest records mean nothing?
You have zero cohesive thoughts in your head. You said that the Giants are not going to be going anywhere next year and will absolutely be worse next year. How so? We don’t know their schedule, what players the teams on that schedule will lose, what players the Giants add, and what a second year with this staff will look like.
It’s likely the Giants will be better next year. Does that result in more wins this year who knows, but to suggest we should burn another year evaluating Jones because this teams not going anywhere next year is asinine.
I don't either. But why wouldn't you think this has something to do with our conversation?
If they have Jones this year and win 8 or 9 games and next year they win less, wouldn't it more than likely mean they have had a worse season?
Or are you going to suggest records mean nothing?
You have zero cohesive thoughts in your head. You said that the Giants are not going to be going anywhere next year and will absolutely be worse next year. How so? We don’t know their schedule, what players the teams on that schedule will lose, what players the Giants add, and what a second year with this staff will look like.
It’s likely the Giants will be better next year. Does that result in more wins this year who knows, but to suggest we should burn another year evaluating Jones because this teams not going anywhere next year is asinine.
If they win 8 or 9 games this year they will be worse next. I'll be happy to put a wager on with you if they win 8 or 9 next year and then bring in a rookie QB that isn't the number 1 QB draft pick.
1. I took this game as a reminder. A reminder that the team itself is not very good and they’re not ready for a long winning streak. They are competitive and I do think they’re heading in the right direction. I don’t say that with a moral victory kind of tone. I firmly believe it is the truth. The change can be felt and they’re on the move upward. But bad teams find ways to lose games. In the fourth quarter, NYG was down 20-13. On 2nd-and-8, Shepard drops a ball that would have been a deep completion. Then they get flagged for a delay-of-game penalty. Then Golladay drops a perfectly placed ball on 3rd-and-13 that had a shot at gaining the first down. That is the kind of drive at the most important point of game that losing teams put together. It’s not completely out of their system yet.
I forget if there's a team option on Taylor for 2023.
My thoughts exactly. Keep Jones and draft a QB who hopefully beats him out. But if the rookie struggles, or takes some time to develop, Jones is a much better option than the likes of the Tyrod Taylors of the world
It's easy for you to sit behind a couch with an anonymous name and scream for guys like Wilson. Or want Trubisky instead of Jones etc - and if you are wrong you dont'; have to deal with the consequences.
Consequences? NFL GMs aren't going miles into the earth to pull out coal. They are paid millions of dollars to take risks and get it right. As long as they don't do something stupid (e.g. sexual harassment), they very likely get paid the remaining years on their contract if fired.
By this logic you would never draft a quarterback. Hell, by this logic we would never have drafted Jones in the first place! Who had more "warts" than he did as a top 6 QB pick?
Indeed.
A lot of posters are taking this absurd position that you can't replace Jones unless there is a sure thing replacement.
And since you can ever guarantee that, especially with college prospects, Jones is essentially the QB unless we replace him with a known commodity super-star like a Rodgers, Allen, etc.
Reading comprehension, bw. I am not taking the position that you can't replace Jones unless there is a sure fire replacement. I have said I would try and retain Jones at a reasonable contract, and would open to drafting a QB as well. My point in bringing up Rosen and Haskins is in response to a poster stating that the 5th QB in this draft has more upside than Jones. Rosen was the 4th QB picked, and Haskins I believe the 3rd. Both of them are examples of what can happen worse than Jones.
Retaining Jones and drafting a QB if Schoen/Daboll find the right guy is a way of hedging your bets, and lessening the downside risk if the new QB is a total bust.
Joe Judge got $25 million for sucking for two years. He doesn’t have to work again if he doesn’t want. The consequences for coaches and GMs is nothing compared to players.
Next year. It doesn’t mean the team is worse. Not sure why you can’t grasp this concept. You also have zero idea what next year will look like.
I asked that question of you not sure why you are having such a hard time reading? I said it right there. But it didn't fit yoru narrative, so you just ignored, right?
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Or are you going to suggest records mean nothing?
===================
And ofc you are going to downplay records - I expected yo would which is why I had asked the above question. SO even if the record is worse you will just say "They are better" because you say so.
============================
By the way-- I'm copying my 11:26 am reponse to you that you have avoided.
Your view imo is the not what he is saying. He didn't say signing Tannehill was a mistake as an isoalted sttaement which you are implyimng. The 1st two sentences are oppsoite of what you are saying:
-----------------------
"The ceiling being a guy who absolutely needs the team around him to be top notch. This is a tough kind of player to plan around when it comes to long term finances."
-----------------------
First off do you have the link for his full comments? No problem if you don't. But you are providing me his comments form either Carolina or Tennesse is my guess? I could be wrong.
1-- He is saying you can win if surrounding talent is top notch.
2-- He is saying for long-term success don't pay him an obscene long-term contract like Tennessee did to Tanehill.
=======================
None of this is saying that Jones is not a starting QB.
It's easy for you to sit behind a couch with an anonymous name and scream for guys like Wilson. Or want Trubisky instead of Jones etc - and if you are wrong you dont'; have to deal with the consequences.
Consequences? NFL GMs aren't going miles into the earth to pull out coal. They are paid millions of dollars to take risks and get it right. As long as they don't do something stupid (e.g. sexual harassment), they very likely get paid the remaining years on their contract if fired.
It's a very nice safety net.
Consequences of getting fired and possibly never getting rehired as a GM. Unless you think they dont want the job veyr long?
Your use of lines of "=" (of varying lengths, too) to break your posts into sections makes the entire post more difficult to read. It starts to feel like a thread within a thread.
Just sharing some feedback, not meant as an attack.
Your use of lines of "=" (of varying lengths, too) to break your posts into sections makes the entire post more difficult to read. It starts to feel like a thread within a thread.
Just sharing some feedback, not meant as an attack.
I'm the one agreeing with Sy after his Dallas comments and you're the one saying he's not starting NFL QB.
I'm the one saying wait until season ends which SY has suggested and you criticize me?
LMAO.
And then even more laughable you want to throw away wins and losses while in an argument with me so you could use your subjective opinion next year whether a team is better or not?
LMAO.
You've got to be kidding?? I'm quoting a pro scout in regards to Jones and you're blasting me. Hahahahaha Man, you are delusional.
I'm the one agreeing with Sy after his Dallas comments and you're the one saying he's not starting NFL QB.
I'm the one saying wait until season ends which SY has suggested and you criticize me?
LMAO.
And then even more laughable you want to throw away wins and losses while in an argument with me so you could use your subjective opinion next year whether a team is better or not?
LMAO.
You've got to be kidding?? I'm quoting a pro scout in regards to Jones and you're blasting me. Hahahahaha Man, you are delusional.
Love SY, but let's stop pretending as if NFL GMs and scouts don't make mistakes. There are more vade draft picks than good draft picks. There are more bad free agent signings than good free agent signings.
A lot of posters are taking this absurd position that you can't replace Jones unless there is a sure thing replacement.
And since you can ever guarantee that, especially with college prospects, Jones is essentially the QB unless we replace him with a known commodity super-star like a Rodgers, Allen, etc.
Reading comprehension, bw. I am not taking the position that you can't replace Jones unless there is a sure fire replacement. I have said I would try and retain Jones at a reasonable contract, and would open to drafting a QB as well. My point in bringing up Rosen and Haskins is in response to a poster stating that the 5th QB in this draft has more upside than Jones. Rosen was the 4th QB picked, and Haskins I believe the 3rd. Both of them are examples of what can happen worse than Jones.
Retaining Jones and drafting a QB if Schoen/Daboll find the right guy is a way of hedging your bets, and lessening the downside risk if the new QB is a total bust.
I'm the one agreeing with Sy after his Dallas comments and you're the one saying he's not starting NFL QB.
I'm the one saying wait until season ends which SY has suggested and you criticize me?
LMAO.
And then even more laughable you want to throw away wins and losses while in an argument with me so you could use your subjective opinion next year whether a team is better or not?
LMAO.
You've got to be kidding?? I'm quoting a pro scout in regards to Jones and you're blasting me. Hahahahaha Man, you are delusional.
Love SY, but let's stop pretending as if NFL GMs and scouts don't make mistakes. There are more vade draft picks than good draft picks. There are more bad free agent signings than good free agent signings.
Yes but as I told toptenhammer on this thread--
you get posters like AR and others that throw insults at the opinions.
I'm agreeing with SY and yet the moron AR is insulting me.
That's over-the-top.
We can disagree but i find some of these Jones haters (not all) insult if you don't agree that "Jones sucks and without a doubt he should be dumped."
I agree I would love someone better. Bottomline is that you can't trash those of us that agree with Sy. Disagree; sure. But trash; it's laughable to do that in the manner some of these delusional posters do.
Mike lombardi is one as well. His claim to fame was driving late coach Walsh around to his various daily activites and picking up his dry cleaning. Not kidding.
I don't know who Si is but, if he in the giants organization there might be a conflict of interest there regarding Jones
doesn't matter because the season is only 25% completed.
The Jones-basher are panicking. They're so afraid of being proven wrong that they're calling for an early vote, so to speak. They know it's irrelevant, but... Get it while you can - ( New Window )
doesn't matter because the season is only 25% completed.
The Jones-basher are panicking. They're so afraid of being proven wrong that they're calling for an early vote, so to speak. They know it's irrelevant, but... Get it while you can - ( New Window )
No need to panic ever since Schoen/Daboll passed on the 5th year option...
RE: RE: RE: why waste time on something like this.
No need to panic ever since Schoen/Daboll passed on the 5th year option...
Meaning they are leaving the decision for when the season ends in January or February. So need to make a decision today. Yet those silly Jones bashers live in such fear of looking foolish, they're looking for any pat on the back they can find. Those pats on the back may be in short supply a couple months from now. Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: why waste time on something like this.
No need to panic ever since Schoen/Daboll passed on the 5th year option...
Meaning they are leaving the decision for when the season ends in January or February. So need to make a decision today. Yet those silly Jones bashers live in such fear of looking foolish, they're looking for any pat on the back they can find. Those pats on the back may be in short supply a couple months from now. Link - ( New Window )
They are already made their decision that they don’t want Jones back at starter money. I guess he could return as a backup but we already have Taylor under contract so...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: why waste time on something like this.
No need to panic ever since Schoen/Daboll passed on the 5th year option...
Meaning they are leaving the decision for when the season ends in January or February. So need to make a decision today. Yet those silly Jones bashers live in such fear of looking foolish, they're looking for any pat on the back they can find. Those pats on the back may be in short supply a couple months from now. Link - ( New Window )
They are already made their decision that they don’t want Jones back at starter money. I guess he could return as a backup but we already have Taylor under contract so...
No they didnt. They wanted to take a season to see Jones for themselves
RE: RE: RE: RE: why waste time on something like this.
No need to panic ever since Schoen/Daboll passed on the 5th year option...
Meaning they are leaving the decision for when the season ends in January or February. So need to make a decision today. Yet those silly Jones bashers live in such fear of looking foolish, they're looking for any pat on the back they can find. Those pats on the back may be in short supply a couple months from now. Link - ( New Window )
Oh ok. They never saw Jones before . A pro coach and gm are making decisions based on he said she said.
Why did they sign Taylor to a two year deal for 19 mil (with incentives) which includes 6 mil in playing incentives? Why
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: why waste time on something like this.
No need to panic ever since Schoen/Daboll passed on the 5th year option...
Meaning they are leaving the decision for when the season ends in January or February. So need to make a decision today. Yet those silly Jones bashers live in such fear of looking foolish, they're looking for any pat on the back they can find. Those pats on the back may be in short supply a couple months from now. Link - ( New Window )
They are already made their decision that they don’t want Jones back at starter money. I guess he could return as a backup but we already have Taylor under contract so...
No they didnt. They wanted to take a season to see Jones for themselves
If they were that interested they exercise the option. That’s what it’s for...
No need to panic ever since Schoen/Daboll passed on the 5th year option...
Meaning they are leaving the decision for when the season ends in January or February. So need to make a decision today. Yet those silly Jones bashers live in such fear of looking foolish, they're looking for any pat on the back they can find. Those pats on the back may be in short supply a couple months from now. Link - ( New Window )
They are already made their decision that they don’t want Jones back at starter money. I guess he could return as a backup but we already have Taylor under contract so...
No they didnt. They wanted to take a season to see Jones for themselves
You know all these guys know how to watch tape, right? And all the coaches and execs talk to each other, right?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: why waste time on something like this.
No need to panic ever since Schoen/Daboll passed on the 5th year option...
Meaning they are leaving the decision for when the season ends in January or February. So need to make a decision today. Yet those silly Jones bashers live in such fear of looking foolish, they're looking for any pat on the back they can find. Those pats on the back may be in short supply a couple months from now. Link - ( New Window )
They are already made their decision that they don’t want Jones back at starter money. I guess he could return as a backup but we already have Taylor under contract so...
No they didnt. They wanted to take a season to see Jones for themselves
You know all these guys know how to watch tape, right? And all the coaches and execs talk to each other, right?
Yes and it is possible that some they trust said that Garrett offense and Judge’s philosophy were making him look worse than he was. It was telling that they did not break the bank for a starting QB. You can’t win without a good one and one Super Bowl winner (Wilson) and one guy who was the sole reason his team made the playoffs (Watson) were available this offseason. Despite the cap situation, if one was available that instantly made us a playoff team Schoen would have found a way to make it work.
Fortunately for everyone it's up to Schoen and Dabs
Qb's in the draft
FA's available
Asking price
If they don’t think they can get a guy to develop in the 2023 draft I think he’s worth 2 years/20 mil
I hope they like him enough to sign him for a longer term $15 mil/year so they can draft another important piece and manage the cap
Best guess - they cut ties and pick a guy they can develop
If he comes back and would settle for 3/40, would consider
not at 30 million
just cant hamstring us at this point
If the best free agent QB is Garoppolo and the best QB we can draft is a 2022 version of Manziel, then hell yeah, I’m resigning Jones.
The 5th best QB in the 2023 draft has more upside than Daniel Jones.
Quote:
At best positioned for 5th best QB in draft.
The 5th best QB in the 2023 draft has more upside than Daniel Jones.
Right now, no I am not re-signing him.
But, the 5th best QB in the draft is not likely better than Jones.
Quote:
At best positioned for 5th best QB in draft.
The 5th best QB in the 2023 draft has more upside than Daniel Jones.
Nostradamus hath spoken !!!
If the best offer he gets is above what Daboll and Schoen think he is worth to their future let him go.
If they have schemes that integrate his "limited skills" to an 11 man winning offense, retain DJ at a little above his best offer.
Both parties would then be better off by him not changing teams.
over 17 games: 13 TDs/9 INTs, 64% completion%, 6 YPA, 46 QBR.
So, if you aggregate those projections with his prior three years, Jones's career looks like:
58 TDs/ 38 INT, 63.5% completion%, 6.4 YPA, 47 QBR.
I didn't feel compelled to adjust for the excuse variables.
The object is to have a great QB, or at the very least a very good one.
So, even if you bastardize the numbers to account for the excuse variables, the answer is clearly no.
over 17 games: 13 TDs/9 INTs, 64% completion%, 6 YPA, 46 QBR.
So, if you aggregate those projections with his prior three years, Jones's career looks like:
58 TDs/ 38 INT, 63.5% completion%, 6.4 YPA, 47 QBR.
I didn't feel compelled to adjust for the excuse variables.
The object is to have a great QB, or at the very least a very good one.
So, even if you bastardize the numbers to account for the excuse variables, the answer is clearly no.
You left out rushing TDs. Did you leave that out as part of the excuse category?
And no, I’m not a Jones guy. But I would offer him a low end contract for two years and see if he bites. Like 18 mil per year area. Where we would be picking based on our record we won’t have a shot at the top guys.
1st-round QBs are 50-50 and a bad one would set the franchise back more than DJ. I would not pay franchise rates, but would offer $15-20M.
2) No to $30M+ franchise tag
3) Maybe to Transition Tag IF that exists / is an option
4) Yes to a 2 yr $40M incentive laden contract IF he / his agent would agree
1st-round QBs are 50-50 and a bad one would set the franchise back more than DJ. I would not pay franchise rates, but would offer $15-20M.
It's not possible for a rookie to set us back more than Jones. Jones is a dead end.
You left out rushing TDs. Did you leave that out as part of the excuse category?
And no, I’m not a Jones guy. But I would offer him a low end contract for two years and see if he bites. Like 18 mil per year area. Where we would be picking based on our record we won’t have a shot at the top guys.
That's a fair point, and I thought about it. And, no, rushing yards are not part of the basket of excuses.
But Jones is not enough of dynamic rushing threat like an LJax to move the needle for me to sign him.
If we could get a cheap deal as a back-up, then I'm more interested.
Fuck no. Just stick with Taylor for much less.
And yes, all them clearly have more UPSIDE than Jones.
Of course "definitely better" than Jones has been in 3.5 years is always hard to predict with the draft, but by the same token Jones performance to date isn't hard to top. His numbers are on par with Trubisky, whom everyone agrees is a bust.
Quote:
At best positioned for 5th best QB in draft.
The 5th best QB in the 2023 draft has more upside than Daniel Jones.
Which quarterback would that be, and what makes him better than Daniel?
over 17 games: 13 TDs/9 INTs, 64% completion%, 6 YPA, 46 QBR.
So, if you aggregate those projections with his prior three years, Jones's career looks like:
58 TDs/ 38 INT, 63.5% completion%, 6.4 YPA, 47 QBR.
I didn't feel compelled to adjust for the excuse variables.
The object is to have a great QB, or at the very least a very good one.
So, even if you bastardize the numbers to account for the excuse variables, the answer is clearly no.
Ok, 12-5 or 13-4, Pretty good.
Hopefully we get some guys back and BD gets a good look. Based on draft, Jones and whatever else in on the market make a decision from that point. 1st round pick starts. 2nd-4th round then sign the best available QB as expectation should be to win while that QB learns is evaluated as a potential solution.
If that does not work keep looking for the next QB. Winning will allow BD to have that chance.
No chance
Good.
"Spread over three years of course."
You are willing to commit $32M to Jones? Wow!
If the answer is no because season is too early,
then why is the question about Jones relevant?
Dont see a need for a ft talk just yet but if jones kicks ass here over the next 3 months, by all means, he’s done little to nothing to really complain about this season. Let’s be honest.
You're forgetting that Mara has done "...everything possible to screw this kid up."
And yes, all them clearly have more UPSIDE than Jones.
Of course "definitely better" than Jones has been in 3.5 years is always hard to predict with the draft, but by the same token Jones performance to date isn't hard to top. His numbers are on par with Trubisky, whom everyone agrees is a bust.
Good post.
This 2023 QB class is fascinating. There have been so many developments and we're only five weeks into the season. Van Dyke has the yips. Anthony Richardson looks very physically gifted but is raw plus. Levis had a tragically bad 4th quarter last week in a very winnable game at Ole Miss. Hooker may be the most underrated prospect in the draft. DJU seems to have found his game again at Clemson. McCall continues to be underrated. Hartman is a game and produces a lot of points. I think I'm the only guy outside of Kentucky who finds Malik Cunningham to be an interesting prospect. Will Rodgers is playing out of his mind.
Etc, etc, etc..
Hurt “all the time”?
Holy exaggeration, Batman!
And yes, all them clearly have more UPSIDE than Jones.
Of course "definitely better" than Jones has been in 3.5 years is always hard to predict with the draft, but by the same token Jones performance to date isn't hard to top. His numbers are on par with Trubisky, whom everyone agrees is a bust.
And the talent around Jones has been what exactly to make an informed opinion?
Yeah i thought so
Quote:
Of course that list is going to fluctuate quite a bit, but who would rather have a 5th year of Jones than the 4th or 5th guy on that list?
And yes, all them clearly have more UPSIDE than Jones.
Of course "definitely better" than Jones has been in 3.5 years is always hard to predict with the draft, but by the same token Jones performance to date isn't hard to top. His numbers are on par with Trubisky, whom everyone agrees is a bust.
And the talent around Jones has been what exactly to make an informed opinion?
Yeah i thought so
By 2030, Daniel Jones is going to be the answer to a question on Jeopardy.
Of course many BBI posters will throw their remotes at the TV and scream "Jason Garrett!" At the top of their lungs
We tend to think of Tyrod Taylor as the 2023 stopgap, and in a sense, he is. But maybe the combination of Jones and Taylor is worth retaining for another year, if the price for Jones reflects his mediocre performance and the high likelihood that his backup will have to play at some point. Fortunately, the team has at least thirteen more games to assess the resilts of the pairing.
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You left out rushing TDs. Did you leave that out as part of the excuse category?
And no, I’m not a Jones guy. But I would offer him a low end contract for two years and see if he bites. Like 18 mil per year area. Where we would be picking based on our record we won’t have a shot at the top guys.
That's a fair point, and I thought about it. And, no, rushing yards are not part of the basket of excuses.
But Jones is not enough of dynamic rushing threat like an LJax to move the needle for me to sign him.
If we could get a cheap deal as a back-up, then I'm more interested.
I think this is where we are headed. We make him a low/modest two year offer at season end. If he bites then we use him while we search or develop another QB. And if somehow the lights go on for him in that time then we dish the rookie for decent comp.
Carson Wentz went 9-8 with the Colts last year with OK productivity, and the Commandets traded two third round picks for the right to pay him 29M this year. It only takes one team dead set on being average, for Jones to get a big number.
What a stupid comment. More idiotic Quack Quack from you.
SO you're going to say the talent around him "hasn't been GREAT?" Just wow!!!! USing the word "Great" to minimize what they actually were. Can you be any more transparent?
His OLINe has SUCKED. Name one OL last year that has gone on and is doing well?
His Wide Receivers sucked. As did his TE. NO receivers or or TE's that have left are doing well. Engram is afloat and that's it.
And until this year there has been no real Barkley.
************And the coaching staff has sucked.
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A shitty coaching staff, a shitty OL, Shitty Wr's and Tight Ends, and a RB that has been hurt a ton so we've had to use backup RB's that are nothing for nay other team--
IF IF IF Jones was mediocre for argument's sake-- how do you think he's going to perform?????????????
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A young mediocre QB (for argument's sake) is Going to RISE above ShItty Coaching,
Shitty OL play,
SHITTY Wide Receivers and Tight Ends
And SHITTY backup RB's now all but out of the NFL????????
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Please stop the nonsense. But yeah your comment "The other surrounding player's weren't "GREAT>" LMAO at your attempt to minimize things.
Quote:
Why can’t we get jones on a relatively cheap 1-2 year deal and draft a qb?
Carson Wentz went 9-8 with the Colts last year with OK productivity, and the Commandets traded two third round picks for the right to pay him 29M this year. It only takes one team dead set on being average, for Jones to get a big number.
Where do you think the Giants are going to be next year with or without Jones?
Quote:
In comment 15848926 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:
I think this is where we are headed. We make him a low/modest two year offer at season end. If he bites then we use him while we search or develop another QB. And if somehow the lights go on for him in that time then we dish the rookie for decent comp.
A year FT if he continues to trend higher as he has done the past 2 weeks. Giants aren't going anywhere next year.
The Green Bay game will again make it apparent that the Defense isn't very good and ofc the Offense has huge problems including or excluding Jones.
Where do you think the Giants are going to be next year with or without Jones?
I think the Giants will have an opportunity to upgrade the position in the draft.
Quote:
Carson Wentz went 9-8 with the Colts last year with OK productivity, and the Commandets traded two third round picks for the right to pay him 29M this year. It only takes one team dead set on being average, for Jones to get a big number.
Where do you think the Giants are going to be next year with or without Jones?
I think the Giants will have an opportunity to upgrade the position in the draft.
So if you were to guess - you expect a shitty 2023 NFL season in terms of record? Because SB is gone too, right?
And we'll get a top 10 pick in 2023 draft?
Or a late 1st round/ 2nd round pick in 2023?
I think the Giants will have an opportunity to upgrade the position in the draft.
So if you were to guess - you expect a shitty 2023 NFL season in terms of record? Because SB is gone too, right?
And we'll get a top 10 pick in 2023 draft?
Or a late 1st round/ 2nd round pick in 2023?
Nope. I think Barkley gets franchised. I think the Giants can pick a QB in the 2023 draft who can do what Jones is doing, for a lot less salary.
But based on his play up til now probably not. But it would depend on whether they see a quarterback who they believe is s at least as good on a rookie contract.
Lol
But based on his play up til now probably not. But it would depend on whether they see a quarterback who they believe is s at least as good on a rookie contract.
You kind of made my point in an another thread. You said the drop off from Dak to Cooper Rush was not significant. Imagine paying Dak all that money to come to the conclusion that the back up is pretty much the same? I agree with you and that’s my issue with keeping Jones. It’s economics.
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Jones is hurt all the time and the ‘23 QBs are wildly overrated.
Hurt “all the time”?
Holy exaggeration, Batman!
Yes, being hurt every year he’s been in the league qualifies as hurt all the time. I don’t see how this is even debatable.
Quote:
Where do you think the Giants are going to be next year with or without Jones?
I think the Giants will have an opportunity to upgrade the position in the draft.
So if you were to guess - you expect a shitty 2023 NFL season in terms of record? Because SB is gone too, right?
And we'll get a top 10 pick in 2023 draft?
Or a late 1st round/ 2nd round pick in 2023?
Nope. I think Barkley gets franchised. I think the Giants can pick a QB in the 2023 draft who can do what Jones is doing, for a lot less salary.
What did you say "Nope" to?
Are you saying you think Giants cna get a 3rd round QB or later rounds that does hwat Jones is doing?
***And you think Sy is flat out wrong at this point when he says "He can do it."
And you think his quote when he says below is flat out wrong? It's okay if you do. Just asking.
"It can be very hard to accurately evaluate a performance like this one. Listen to any quarterback talk about Jones and they will tell you it is almost impossible to play a normal version of the position in that kind of environment. If anything, I actually put this game in the “positive pile” when thinking about where his status will reside in January."
If they win 7 plus games doubt they have a chance to get one of the top guys they like. Round one he is gone. Later pick you consider a shorter contract. BD already said what he looks for. QB who can process and make decisions under pressure.
Last year most of the QBGC was calling for Willis at pick 5. The NFL did not agree. It's a real hard spot to get right. Most won't come close to realizing expectations. Make a mistake somebody else picks the next one imv.
***And you think Sy is flat out wrong at this point when he says "He can do it."
And you think his quote when he says below is flat out wrong? It's okay if you do. Just asking.
"It can be very hard to accurately evaluate a performance like this one. Listen to any quarterback talk about Jones and they will tell you it is almost impossible to play a normal version of the position in that kind of environment. If anything, I actually put this game in the “positive pile” when thinking about where his status will reside in January."
What about these Sy quotes?
[Watching from the birds eye, Jones simply did not see open targets or he was too hesitant to let it rip. I say that from the comfort of my chair, whereas he had multiple elite, enormous athletes bearing down on him trying to rip his head off behind a shaky offensive line. But at some point, and Brian Daboll has stated this as well, Jones will need to alter his mindset. There is too much hesitation in his game, and it almost cost the team. Sure, he is playing with a sub-par group of pass catchers, but he needs to be more aggressive.
Jones is not a starting QB you can win with. Why people can’t see that 4 years in and want to waste more years and more cap space on him is insane. If he played any other position on this team or had any minor character flaw the same people supporting him would be running him out of town.
Schoen witnessed first hand how a team coming off a surprising playoff bid can move up in the draft and get the best player, so I wouldn't rule anything out.
I also wouldn't rule out trading for a veteran if Schoen determines the team is closer than the W/L show.
Quote:
At best positioned for 5th best QB in draft.
The 5th best QB in the 2023 draft has more upside than Daniel Jones.
Dwayne Haskins and Josh Rosen say hi
ajr2456 : 11/23/2021 1:02 pm : link
.
Quote:
I think it depends the price
ajr2456 : 11/23/2021 1:02 pm : link
.
Wrong thread
Quote:
[quote]
[Watching from the birds eye, Jones simply did not see open targets or he was too hesitant to let it rip. I say that from the comfort of my chair, whereas he had multiple elite, enormous athletes bearing down on him trying to rip his head off behind a shaky offensive line. But at some point, and Brian Daboll has stated this as well, Jones will need to alter his mindset. There is too much hesitation in his game, and it almost cost the team. Sure, he is playing with a sub-par group of pass catchers, but he needs to be more aggressive.
Jones is not a starting QB you can win with. Why people can’t see that 4 years in and want to waste more years and more cap space on him is insane. If he played any other position on this team or had any minor character flaw the same people supporting him would be running him out of town.
Your view imo is the not what he is saying. He didn't say signing Tannehill was a mistake as an isoalted sttaement which you are implyimng. The 1st two sentences are oppsoite of what you are saying:
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"The ceiling being a guy who absolutely needs the team around him to be top notch. This is a tough kind of player to plan around when it comes to long term finances."
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First off do you have the link for his full comments? No problem if you don't. But you are providing me his comments form either Carolina or Tennesse is my guess? I could be wrong.
1-- He is saying you can win if surrounding talent is top notch.
2-- He is saying for long-term success don't pay him an obscene long-term contract like Tennessee did to Tanehill.
=======================
None of this is saying that Jones is not a starting QB.
At this moment I am not. But if he has a pretty good year why not for 1 year if you can't get the QB you want in the draft? Where do you think this team is going in 2023?
The QB is the most important position in football. If you are unsure of the evaluation and feel you need another year to evaluate - then whats the big deal for 1 year if you don't think you can get better?
If the Giants draft a QB and paly him right away in 2023, you think the Giants are a playoff team in 2023? SO where do you think we're going in 2023?
By this logic you would never draft a quarterback. Hell, by this logic we would never have drafted Jones in the first place! Who had more "warts" than he did as a top 6 QB pick?
I'll be interested to see how Levis, Hooker, and Ward stack up against Rosen in his draft year. Haskins was not a good prospect.
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Dwayne Haskins and Josh Rosen say hi
By this logic you would never draft a quarterback. Hell, by this logic we would never have drafted Jones in the first place! Who had more "warts" than he did as a top 6 QB pick?
I'll be interested to see how Levis, Hooker, and Ward stack up against Rosen in his draft year. Haskins was not a good prospect.
My comment was in response to someone saying that the 5th QB in this draft has more upside than Jones. Rosen was the 4th QB selected and Haskins the 3rd (I think). My point was only that the 5th QB could be a complete bust with less upside than Jones. Not that the Giants should be scared to select a QB in case he is a bust.
Ultimately, Schoen and Daboll were in Buffalo when Josh Allen was selected and developed. I have faith in them to make the correct decision, until they prove otherwise
More than likely they won't be better if their schedule gets tougher.
The vegas line was 7.5 for Giants this year. Do you think they have a shot for 8 or 9 this year?
What are the powerball numbers?
What are the powerball numbers?
Do you think the Giants have a shot to win 8 or 9 games this year?
And I think he's an amazing teammate, gritty competitor and super good dude
But I am not paying him to be my starting QB
I am not arguing - so you don't agree with Sy when he said about Jones "He can do it."
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And you dont' agree with the comments below in regards to positive pile "when thinking about where his status will reside in January."?
https://www.bigblueinteractive.com/2022/09/28/game-review-dallas-cowboys-23-new-york-giants-16/
"Listen to any quarterback talk about Jones and they will tell you it is almost impossible to play a normal version of the position in that kind of environment. If anything, I actually put this game in the “positive pile” when thinking about where his status will reside in January."
Quote:
Dwayne Haskins and Josh Rosen say hi
By this logic you would never draft a quarterback. Hell, by this logic we would never have drafted Jones in the first place! Who had more "warts" than he did as a top 6 QB pick?
Indeed.
A lot of posters are taking this absurd position that you can't replace Jones unless there is a sure thing replacement.
And since you can ever guarantee that, especially with college prospects, Jones is essentially the QB unless we replace him with a known commodity super-star like a Rodgers, Allen, etc.
Quote:
More thank likely won’t be better a whole year from now?
What are the powerball numbers?
Do you think the Giants have a shot to win 8 or 9 games this year?
No I do not. But that has nothing to do with 2023.
Quote:
I forget if there's a team option on Taylor for 2023.
I am not arguing - so you don't agree with Sy when he said about Jones "He can do it."
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And you dont' agree with the comments below in regards to positive pile "when thinking about where his status will reside in January."?
https://www.bigblueinteractive.com/2022/09/28/game-review-dallas-cowboys-23-new-york-giants-16/
"Listen to any quarterback talk about Jones and they will tell you it is almost impossible to play a normal version of the position in that kind of environment. If anything, I actually put this game in the “positive pile” when thinking about where his status will reside in January."
You keep asking the Sy question but ignored my question about Sy’s other comments this year. Why’s that?
Quote:
In comment 15849699 JonC said:
Quote:
I forget if there's a team option on Taylor for 2023.
I am not arguing - so you don't agree with Sy when he said about Jones "He can do it."
===========
And you dont' agree with the comments below in regards to positive pile "when thinking about where his status will reside in January."?
https://www.bigblueinteractive.com/2022/09/28/game-review-dallas-cowboys-23-new-york-giants-16/
"Listen to any quarterback talk about Jones and they will tell you it is almost impossible to play a normal version of the position in that kind of environment. If anything, I actually put this game in the “positive pile” when thinking about where his status will reside in January."
You keep asking the Sy question but ignored my question about Sy’s other comments this year. Why’s that?
I did. Read my post at 11:26 am.
I didn't notice you sent to me before.
Quote:
In comment 15849693 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
More thank likely won’t be better a whole year from now?
What are the powerball numbers?
Do you think the Giants have a shot to win 8 or 9 games this year?
No I do not. But that has nothing to do with 2023.
I don't either. But why wouldn't you think this has something to do with our conversation?
If they have Jones this year and win 8 or 9 games and next year they win less, wouldn't it more than likely mean they have had a worse season?
Or are you going to suggest records mean nothing?
Quote:
In comment 15849522 KDavies said:
Quote:
Dwayne Haskins and Josh Rosen say hi
By this logic you would never draft a quarterback. Hell, by this logic we would never have drafted Jones in the first place! Who had more "warts" than he did as a top 6 QB pick?
Indeed.
A lot of posters are taking this absurd position that you can't replace Jones unless there is a sure thing replacement.
And since you can ever guarantee that, especially with college prospects, Jones is essentially the QB unless we replace him with a known commodity super-star like a Rodgers, Allen, etc.
It's easy for you to sit behind a couch with an anonymous name and scream for guys like Wilson. Or want Trubisky instead of Jones etc - and if you are wrong you dont'; have to deal with the consequences.
I think I will wait to see what actually happens this year. The Giants will be lucky to be 4-4 over this next stretch of games. We don't know where we will be picking and how the 23 QB class looks.
I don't either. But why wouldn't you think this has something to do with our conversation?
If they have Jones this year and win 8 or 9 games and next year they win less, wouldn't it more than likely mean they have had a worse season?
Or are you going to suggest records mean nothing?
You have zero cohesive thoughts in your head. You said that the Giants are not going to be going anywhere next year and will absolutely be worse next year. How so? We don’t know their schedule, what players the teams on that schedule will lose, what players the Giants add, and what a second year with this staff will look like.
It’s likely the Giants will be better next year. Does that result in more wins this year who knows, but to suggest we should burn another year evaluating Jones because this teams not going anywhere next year is asinine.
Quote:
I don't either. But why wouldn't you think this has something to do with our conversation?
If they have Jones this year and win 8 or 9 games and next year they win less, wouldn't it more than likely mean they have had a worse season?
Or are you going to suggest records mean nothing?
You have zero cohesive thoughts in your head. You said that the Giants are not going to be going anywhere next year and will absolutely be worse next year. How so? We don’t know their schedule, what players the teams on that schedule will lose, what players the Giants add, and what a second year with this staff will look like.
It’s likely the Giants will be better next year. Does that result in more wins this year who knows, but to suggest we should burn another year evaluating Jones because this teams not going anywhere next year is asinine.
If they win 8 or 9 games this year they will be worse next. I'll be happy to put a wager on with you if they win 8 or 9 next year and then bring in a rookie QB that isn't the number 1 QB draft pick.
They wont; be a playoff team next year.
Here's another quote from SY:
https://www.bigblueinteractive.com/2022/09/28/game-review-dallas-cowboys-23-new-york-giants-16/
1. I took this game as a reminder. A reminder that the team itself is not very good and they’re not ready for a long winning streak. They are competitive and I do think they’re heading in the right direction. I don’t say that with a moral victory kind of tone. I firmly believe it is the truth. The change can be felt and they’re on the move upward. But bad teams find ways to lose games. In the fourth quarter, NYG was down 20-13. On 2nd-and-8, Shepard drops a ball that would have been a deep completion. Then they get flagged for a delay-of-game penalty. Then Golladay drops a perfectly placed ball on 3rd-and-13 that had a shot at gaining the first down. That is the kind of drive at the most important point of game that losing teams put together. It’s not completely out of their system yet.
My thoughts exactly. Keep Jones and draft a QB who hopefully beats him out. But if the rookie struggles, or takes some time to develop, Jones is a much better option than the likes of the Tyrod Taylors of the world
It's easy for you to sit behind a couch with an anonymous name and scream for guys like Wilson. Or want Trubisky instead of Jones etc - and if you are wrong you dont'; have to deal with the consequences.
Consequences? NFL GMs aren't going miles into the earth to pull out coal. They are paid millions of dollars to take risks and get it right. As long as they don't do something stupid (e.g. sexual harassment), they very likely get paid the remaining years on their contract if fired.
It's a very nice safety net.
In 2017, what pick did the Chiefs have before moving up for Mahomes?
In 2018, what pick did the Bills start with before moving up (twice) to the spot where they took Allen?
Were either of them positioned to take their next franchise QB initially?
Quote:
In comment 15849522 KDavies said:
Quote:
Dwayne Haskins and Josh Rosen say hi
By this logic you would never draft a quarterback. Hell, by this logic we would never have drafted Jones in the first place! Who had more "warts" than he did as a top 6 QB pick?
Indeed.
A lot of posters are taking this absurd position that you can't replace Jones unless there is a sure thing replacement.
And since you can ever guarantee that, especially with college prospects, Jones is essentially the QB unless we replace him with a known commodity super-star like a Rodgers, Allen, etc.
Reading comprehension, bw. I am not taking the position that you can't replace Jones unless there is a sure fire replacement. I have said I would try and retain Jones at a reasonable contract, and would open to drafting a QB as well. My point in bringing up Rosen and Haskins is in response to a poster stating that the 5th QB in this draft has more upside than Jones. Rosen was the 4th QB picked, and Haskins I believe the 3rd. Both of them are examples of what can happen worse than Jones.
Retaining Jones and drafting a QB if Schoen/Daboll find the right guy is a way of hedging your bets, and lessening the downside risk if the new QB is a total bust.
I asked that question of you not sure why you are having such a hard time reading? I said it right there. But it didn't fit yoru narrative, so you just ignored, right?
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Or are you going to suggest records mean nothing?
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And ofc you are going to downplay records - I expected yo would which is why I had asked the above question. SO even if the record is worse you will just say "They are better" because you say so.
============================
By the way-- I'm copying my 11:26 am reponse to you that you have avoided.
Your view imo is the not what he is saying. He didn't say signing Tannehill was a mistake as an isoalted sttaement which you are implyimng. The 1st two sentences are oppsoite of what you are saying:
-----------------------
"The ceiling being a guy who absolutely needs the team around him to be top notch. This is a tough kind of player to plan around when it comes to long term finances."
-----------------------
First off do you have the link for his full comments? No problem if you don't. But you are providing me his comments form either Carolina or Tennesse is my guess? I could be wrong.
1-- He is saying you can win if surrounding talent is top notch.
2-- He is saying for long-term success don't pay him an obscene long-term contract like Tennessee did to Tanehill.
=======================
None of this is saying that Jones is not a starting QB.
Quote:
It's easy for you to sit behind a couch with an anonymous name and scream for guys like Wilson. Or want Trubisky instead of Jones etc - and if you are wrong you dont'; have to deal with the consequences.
Consequences? NFL GMs aren't going miles into the earth to pull out coal. They are paid millions of dollars to take risks and get it right. As long as they don't do something stupid (e.g. sexual harassment), they very likely get paid the remaining years on their contract if fired.
It's a very nice safety net.
Consequences of getting fired and possibly never getting rehired as a GM. Unless you think they dont want the job veyr long?
Just sharing some feedback, not meant as an attack.
Just sharing some feedback, not meant as an attack.
Okay sorry.
Yeah right.
I'm the one agreeing with Sy after his Dallas comments and you're the one saying he's not starting NFL QB.
I'm the one saying wait until season ends which SY has suggested and you criticize me?
LMAO.
And then even more laughable you want to throw away wins and losses while in an argument with me so you could use your subjective opinion next year whether a team is better or not?
LMAO.
You've got to be kidding?? I'm quoting a pro scout in regards to Jones and you're blasting me. Hahahahaha Man, you are delusional.
Quote:
The dumbest person on this website
Yeah right.
I'm the one agreeing with Sy after his Dallas comments and you're the one saying he's not starting NFL QB.
I'm the one saying wait until season ends which SY has suggested and you criticize me?
LMAO.
And then even more laughable you want to throw away wins and losses while in an argument with me so you could use your subjective opinion next year whether a team is better or not?
LMAO.
You've got to be kidding?? I'm quoting a pro scout in regards to Jones and you're blasting me. Hahahahaha Man, you are delusional.
Love SY, but let's stop pretending as if NFL GMs and scouts don't make mistakes. There are more vade draft picks than good draft picks. There are more bad free agent signings than good free agent signings.
Indeed.
A lot of posters are taking this absurd position that you can't replace Jones unless there is a sure thing replacement.
And since you can ever guarantee that, especially with college prospects, Jones is essentially the QB unless we replace him with a known commodity super-star like a Rodgers, Allen, etc.
Reading comprehension, bw. I am not taking the position that you can't replace Jones unless there is a sure fire replacement. I have said I would try and retain Jones at a reasonable contract, and would open to drafting a QB as well. My point in bringing up Rosen and Haskins is in response to a poster stating that the 5th QB in this draft has more upside than Jones. Rosen was the 4th QB picked, and Haskins I believe the 3rd. Both of them are examples of what can happen worse than Jones.
Retaining Jones and drafting a QB if Schoen/Daboll find the right guy is a way of hedging your bets, and lessening the downside risk if the new QB is a total bust.
Fair enough. I get your POV.
Quote:
In comment 15849804 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
The dumbest person on this website
Yeah right.
I'm the one agreeing with Sy after his Dallas comments and you're the one saying he's not starting NFL QB.
I'm the one saying wait until season ends which SY has suggested and you criticize me?
LMAO.
And then even more laughable you want to throw away wins and losses while in an argument with me so you could use your subjective opinion next year whether a team is better or not?
LMAO.
You've got to be kidding?? I'm quoting a pro scout in regards to Jones and you're blasting me. Hahahahaha Man, you are delusional.
Love SY, but let's stop pretending as if NFL GMs and scouts don't make mistakes. There are more vade draft picks than good draft picks. There are more bad free agent signings than good free agent signings.
Yes but as I told toptenhammer on this thread--
you get posters like AR and others that throw insults at the opinions.
I'm agreeing with SY and yet the moron AR is insulting me.
That's over-the-top.
We can disagree but i find some of these Jones haters (not all) insult if you don't agree that "Jones sucks and without a doubt he should be dumped."
I agree I would love someone better. Bottomline is that you can't trash those of us that agree with Sy. Disagree; sure. But trash; it's laughable to do that in the manner some of these delusional posters do.
I don't know who Si is but, if he in the giants organization there might be a conflict of interest there regarding Jones
Get it while you can - ( New Window )
Quote:
doesn't matter because the season is only 25% completed.
The Jones-basher are panicking. They're so afraid of being proven wrong that they're calling for an early vote, so to speak. They know it's irrelevant, but... Get it while you can - ( New Window )
No need to panic ever since Schoen/Daboll passed on the 5th year option...
No need to panic ever since Schoen/Daboll passed on the 5th year option...
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
No need to panic ever since Schoen/Daboll passed on the 5th year option...
Meaning they are leaving the decision for when the season ends in January or February. So need to make a decision today. Yet those silly Jones bashers live in such fear of looking foolish, they're looking for any pat on the back they can find. Those pats on the back may be in short supply a couple months from now. Link - ( New Window )
They are already made their decision that they don’t want Jones back at starter money. I guess he could return as a backup but we already have Taylor under contract so...
Quote:
In comment 15851034 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
No need to panic ever since Schoen/Daboll passed on the 5th year option...
Meaning they are leaving the decision for when the season ends in January or February. So need to make a decision today. Yet those silly Jones bashers live in such fear of looking foolish, they're looking for any pat on the back they can find. Those pats on the back may be in short supply a couple months from now. Link - ( New Window )
They are already made their decision that they don’t want Jones back at starter money. I guess he could return as a backup but we already have Taylor under contract so...
No they didnt. They wanted to take a season to see Jones for themselves
Quote:
No need to panic ever since Schoen/Daboll passed on the 5th year option...
Meaning they are leaving the decision for when the season ends in January or February. So need to make a decision today. Yet those silly Jones bashers live in such fear of looking foolish, they're looking for any pat on the back they can find. Those pats on the back may be in short supply a couple months from now. Link - ( New Window )
Oh ok. They never saw Jones before . A pro coach and gm are making decisions based on he said she said.
Why did they sign Taylor to a two year deal for 19 mil (with incentives) which includes 6 mil in playing incentives? Why
Quote:
In comment 15851038 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 15851034 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
No need to panic ever since Schoen/Daboll passed on the 5th year option...
Meaning they are leaving the decision for when the season ends in January or February. So need to make a decision today. Yet those silly Jones bashers live in such fear of looking foolish, they're looking for any pat on the back they can find. Those pats on the back may be in short supply a couple months from now. Link - ( New Window )
They are already made their decision that they don’t want Jones back at starter money. I guess he could return as a backup but we already have Taylor under contract so...
No they didnt. They wanted to take a season to see Jones for themselves
If they were that interested they exercise the option. That’s what it’s for...
Quote:
In comment 15851038 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 15851034 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
No need to panic ever since Schoen/Daboll passed on the 5th year option...
Meaning they are leaving the decision for when the season ends in January or February. So need to make a decision today. Yet those silly Jones bashers live in such fear of looking foolish, they're looking for any pat on the back they can find. Those pats on the back may be in short supply a couple months from now. Link - ( New Window )
They are already made their decision that they don’t want Jones back at starter money. I guess he could return as a backup but we already have Taylor under contract so...
No they didnt. They wanted to take a season to see Jones for themselves
You know all these guys know how to watch tape, right? And all the coaches and execs talk to each other, right?
Quote:
In comment 15851042 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15851038 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 15851034 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
No need to panic ever since Schoen/Daboll passed on the 5th year option...
Meaning they are leaving the decision for when the season ends in January or February. So need to make a decision today. Yet those silly Jones bashers live in such fear of looking foolish, they're looking for any pat on the back they can find. Those pats on the back may be in short supply a couple months from now. Link - ( New Window )
They are already made their decision that they don’t want Jones back at starter money. I guess he could return as a backup but we already have Taylor under contract so...
No they didnt. They wanted to take a season to see Jones for themselves
You know all these guys know how to watch tape, right? And all the coaches and execs talk to each other, right?
Yes and it is possible that some they trust said that Garrett offense and Judge’s philosophy were making him look worse than he was. It was telling that they did not break the bank for a starting QB. You can’t win without a good one and one Super Bowl winner (Wilson) and one guy who was the sole reason his team made the playoffs (Watson) were available this offseason. Despite the cap situation, if one was available that instantly made us a playoff team Schoen would have found a way to make it work.