I am amused that according to the geniuses on this board that Wilson a HOF QB is finished after 5 games witb a new team, but Jones who has been bad for 3+ years, still has hope. The inconsistency, homerism and dishonesty is truly stunning.
You can bet on Jones. I'll bet on Wilson.
Eventually, the bell tolls even for HoF QBs. And you're not only betting on Wilson, you're betting on Hackett, his staff, and his system all coming together at the same time, before the ungodly mortgage in cap and draft capital comes due. If you're making the play for the established, big-name QB, might make sense to also have an established, HC with a proven system. Maybe the QB is the one missing piece, like Peyton was. Or maybe not. Right now, this doesn't look like it will end well for the Broncos. And btw, this has nothing to do with Jones.
I don't have a problem with anything you are saying. Wilson has played poorly so far. Great QBs sometimes have poor stretches. But Wilson's problems don't look like they are on his talent. If Hackett can't straighten things out, he'll be gone after this season. And as for Wilson, I sooner bet he straightens things out eventually, than I bet on a guy who has never done it, suddenly becoming as good as Wilson's established level of play.
Brady and Rodgers have distorted the view of how QBs decline.
Eli started declining around 35. Matt Ryan's 37 and I think he's been declining for a few years and looks cooked now.
Wilson's going to be 34 next month, has a style more dependent on quickness and agility. Not unfathomable that he's meaningfully declined. Maybe he bounces back and this is more on Hackett than Wilson.
I am amused that according to the geniuses on this board that Wilson a HOF QB is finished after 5 games witb a new team, but Jones who has been bad for 3+ years, still has hope. The inconsistency, homerism and dishonesty is truly stunning.
You can bet on Jones. I'll bet on Wilson.
Why do you ALWAYS have to bring Daniel Jones into the conversation? Why is it impossible for people to evaluate Russell Wilson simply because Jones hasn’t been good? You constantly try to throw off the topic at hand and somehow integrate Jones into the equation.
And another thing. Wilson is 33 years old and making over $40M per season, so you’re damn right people expect him to be a hell of a lot better than Jones. Some of you are consistently using Jones’ draft status as the reason he better be a stud. Why aren’t people allowed to hold Wilson to the same standard after signing the largest contract in NFL history? No gives a shit what he did 5 years ago, he’s making that money NOW. Evaluate what he is now, not in the good ole days. Oh, and keep Jones out of every freakin thread
He got the big contract and has already won a a Superbowl. I believe he is still talented but it appears some of the desire is gone and I think he has turned into a bit of a prima donna. I wanted him and was wrong.
Lot of people discredited Pete Carroll with the success of them and how he's now over the hill. Seahawks are lacking everywhere but the wide receiver room and they're allowing career average Geno Smith look good.
Wilson has not won big games since the defense stopped being elite and he lost Marshawn. In fact, he has zero playoff wins in eight years when his defense gives up at least ONE touchdown. Lots of regular season stats and wins, however has failed to win the important ones that also matter in January.
The unsung pieces to this unexpected start for Seattle are the two rookie tackles - Abraham Lucas (RT) and Charles Cross (LT). It looks like Seattle may have solved a critical need in one draft. If so, what a job by Scheider/Carroll.
Wilson was in Seattle for ten years and made the playoffs 8X. They got to two SBs, won one, and won at least one game in the playoffs for six of those eight years. And in the latter half of his career, he had to manage around some atrocious offensive lines. So, I'm not sure what more you want. The guy was a model of consistency.
It feels very strange having to even bring up these points to the board, who act like Wilson was just a passenger in Seattle and not the driver of that bus.
No one is saying he wasn't great before.
We're talking (at least some of us) about the here and now; some (many?) on this board were clamoring for NYG to trade for him, while others argued against it. Many ignored the fact he was going to be 34 years old (which is an age some QB's start their decline) and were perfectly OK trading away 3-4 draft picks (including what was assumed to include multiple #1's) AND players for this guy. And then have to pay him franchise QB type of money
Others of us - ie, much more rational - thought that was stupid. Especially for a team that was many players away from being a good team.
Wilson has been atrocious this year, and yet you continue to make excuses for him.
Oh, and here's an interesting article on Wilson's performance last night. Linky - ( New Window )
were playing well, it didn't make sense for the Giants to trade for him. The timing of the Giants rise and Wilson's decline would never have resulted in a real window for us.
Independent of the Giants, his poor performance this year is interesting to examine. It would be very surprising if he just became bad this year. Possible, yes, but I strongly suspect there are major coaching problems in Denver.
Brady and Rodgers have distorted the view of how QBs decline.
Eli started declining around 35. Matt Ryan's 37 and I think he's been declining for a few years and looks cooked now.
Wilson's going to be 34 next month, has a style more dependent on quickness and agility. Not unfathomable that he's meaningfully declined. Maybe he bounces back and this is more on Hackett than Wilson.
This is an important point for everyone to consider. Primes have gotten longer, but you can't bank on guys being good into their late 40s. Brady in particular is just super human.
Big part of it is how well you process and make decisions. QB's who are better here can advance the years to a point.
Those relying more on athletic ability it gets shortened.
Brees said at the end he could "slice them" up in the intermediate range. He struggled going deeper and I saw a couple games where SP would bring in Hill to get the ball downfield.
What also can extend primes is teams who understand their QB and build accordingly. Makes no sense to have a pocket passer (older) and give him either a crap running game AND/OR upper tier WR's with a functional PB Oline as they age.
I am amused that according to the geniuses on this board that Wilson a HOF QB is finished after 5 games witb a new team, but Jones who has been bad for 3+ years, still has hope. The inconsistency, homerism and dishonesty is truly stunning.
You can bet on Jones. I'll bet on Wilson.
Why do you ALWAYS have to bring Daniel Jones into the conversation? Why is it impossible for people to evaluate Russell Wilson simply because Jones hasn’t been good? You constantly try to throw off the topic at hand and somehow integrate Jones into the equation.
And another thing. Wilson is 33 years old and making over $40M per season, so you’re damn right people expect him to be a hell of a lot better than Jones. Some of you are consistently using Jones’ draft status as the reason he better be a stud. Why aren’t people allowed to hold Wilson to the same standard after signing the largest contract in NFL history? No gives a shit what he did 5 years ago, he’s making that money NOW. Evaluate what he is now, not in the good ole days. Oh, and keep Jones out of every freakin thread
am i allowed to evaluate Wilson somewhat on his proven talent and the breadth of his career, or part of his career? Or I must evaluate him on a small sample size, 5-game stretch. Last season, when he wasn't hurt, he was great.
I bring Daniel Jones up bc I'm a Giants fan, and I want to see us aspire to have a great QB, and not settle for someone who hasn't proven anything in 3+ years. And I happen to know you agree with me. You just don't like my style.
were playing well, it didn't make sense for the Giants to trade for him. The timing of the Giants rise and Wilson's decline would never have resulted in a real window for us.
Independent of the Giants, his poor performance this year is interesting to examine. It would be very surprising if he just became bad this year. Possible, yes, but I strongly suspect there are major coaching problems in Denver.
I was glad Schoen made the call (per reports) to see Wilson's availability. I would have supported the move if Schoen could make it work.
Now, we could have dodged a major bullet if Wilson has hit the wall. But I'm not ready to declare him flatlined yet. He's got a lot of experience and has always been a problem solver...
were playing well, it didn't make sense for the Giants to trade for him. The timing of the Giants rise and Wilson's decline would never have resulted in a real window for us.
Independent of the Giants, his poor performance this year is interesting to examine. It would be very surprising if he just became bad this year. Possible, yes, but I strongly suspect there are major coaching problems in Denver.
I was glad Schoen made the call (per reports) to see Wilson's availability. I would have supported the move if Schoen could make it work.
Now, we could have dodged a major bullet if Wilson has hit the wall. But I'm not ready to declare him flatlined yet. He's got a lot of experience and has always been a problem solver...
Oh I like that he made the call. I want the GM to be active, particularly in aggressively pursuing high end QB talent. For me the deal only made would have worked if Wilson had 4+ prime years left. While that was a possibility, I thought the probability was way too low for us to make that kind of investment
RE: RE: I have had just enough of Wilson at this point.
Jared Goff starts on my fantasy teams next week...
he's been brutal for fantasy. there's no doubt. i think he'll come around statistically eventually but who knows when.
The Denver defense is getting me more points that Wilson. I am lucky to be 3-1 at this point but he isn't helping...
better to cycle between hot QBs or pickup Geno Smith. I picked up Geno in case Rodgers doesn't get his act together in one league. I don't think I'm playing Geno this week, but another week of lackluster performance ...
Quote:
I am amused that according to the geniuses on this board that Wilson a HOF QB is finished after 5 games witb a new team, but Jones who has been bad for 3+ years, still has hope. The inconsistency, homerism and dishonesty is truly stunning.
You can bet on Jones. I'll bet on Wilson.
Eventually, the bell tolls even for HoF QBs. And you're not only betting on Wilson, you're betting on Hackett, his staff, and his system all coming together at the same time, before the ungodly mortgage in cap and draft capital comes due. If you're making the play for the established, big-name QB, might make sense to also have an established, HC with a proven system. Maybe the QB is the one missing piece, like Peyton was. Or maybe not. Right now, this doesn't look like it will end well for the Broncos. And btw, this has nothing to do with Jones.
I don't have a problem with anything you are saying. Wilson has played poorly so far. Great QBs sometimes have poor stretches. But Wilson's problems don't look like they are on his talent. If Hackett can't straighten things out, he'll be gone after this season. And as for Wilson, I sooner bet he straightens things out eventually, than I bet on a guy who has never done it, suddenly becoming as good as Wilson's established level of play.
Eli started declining around 35. Matt Ryan's 37 and I think he's been declining for a few years and looks cooked now.
Wilson's going to be 34 next month, has a style more dependent on quickness and agility. Not unfathomable that he's meaningfully declined. Maybe he bounces back and this is more on Hackett than Wilson.
You can bet on Jones. I'll bet on Wilson.
Why do you ALWAYS have to bring Daniel Jones into the conversation? Why is it impossible for people to evaluate Russell Wilson simply because Jones hasn’t been good? You constantly try to throw off the topic at hand and somehow integrate Jones into the equation.
And another thing. Wilson is 33 years old and making over $40M per season, so you’re damn right people expect him to be a hell of a lot better than Jones. Some of you are consistently using Jones’ draft status as the reason he better be a stud. Why aren’t people allowed to hold Wilson to the same standard after signing the largest contract in NFL history? No gives a shit what he did 5 years ago, he’s making that money NOW. Evaluate what he is now, not in the good ole days. Oh, and keep Jones out of every freakin thread
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Lot of people discredited Pete Carroll with the success of them and how he's now over the hill. Seahawks are lacking everywhere but the wide receiver room and they're allowing career average Geno Smith look good.
Wilson has not won big games since the defense stopped being elite and he lost Marshawn. In fact, he has zero playoff wins in eight years when his defense gives up at least ONE touchdown. Lots of regular season stats and wins, however has failed to win the important ones that also matter in January.
The unsung pieces to this unexpected start for Seattle are the two rookie tackles - Abraham Lucas (RT) and Charles Cross (LT). It looks like Seattle may have solved a critical need in one draft. If so, what a job by Scheider/Carroll.
Wilson was in Seattle for ten years and made the playoffs 8X. They got to two SBs, won one, and won at least one game in the playoffs for six of those eight years. And in the latter half of his career, he had to manage around some atrocious offensive lines. So, I'm not sure what more you want. The guy was a model of consistency.
It feels very strange having to even bring up these points to the board, who act like Wilson was just a passenger in Seattle and not the driver of that bus.
No one is saying he wasn't great before.
We're talking (at least some of us) about the here and now; some (many?) on this board were clamoring for NYG to trade for him, while others argued against it. Many ignored the fact he was going to be 34 years old (which is an age some QB's start their decline) and were perfectly OK trading away 3-4 draft picks (including what was assumed to include multiple #1's) AND players for this guy. And then have to pay him franchise QB type of money
Others of us - ie, much more rational - thought that was stupid. Especially for a team that was many players away from being a good team.
Wilson has been atrocious this year, and yet you continue to make excuses for him.
Oh, and here's an interesting article on Wilson's performance last night.
Linky - ( New Window )
Wilson has been atrocious this year, and yet you continue to make excuses for him.
- ( New Window )
I think I've examined the situation properly. Right now, Denver has problems everywhere on offense - Wilson, Hackett, and others on offense.
The difference between my position and others - like you - is I'm not ready to declare Wilson finished after five games.
In the meantime, enjoy the victory dance...
Independent of the Giants, his poor performance this year is interesting to examine. It would be very surprising if he just became bad this year. Possible, yes, but I strongly suspect there are major coaching problems in Denver.
Eli started declining around 35. Matt Ryan's 37 and I think he's been declining for a few years and looks cooked now.
Wilson's going to be 34 next month, has a style more dependent on quickness and agility. Not unfathomable that he's meaningfully declined. Maybe he bounces back and this is more on Hackett than Wilson.
This is an important point for everyone to consider. Primes have gotten longer, but you can't bank on guys being good into their late 40s. Brady in particular is just super human.
Those relying more on athletic ability it gets shortened.
Brees said at the end he could "slice them" up in the intermediate range. He struggled going deeper and I saw a couple games where SP would bring in Hill to get the ball downfield.
What also can extend primes is teams who understand their QB and build accordingly. Makes no sense to have a pocket passer (older) and give him either a crap running game AND/OR upper tier WR's with a functional PB Oline as they age.
Quote:
I am amused that according to the geniuses on this board that Wilson a HOF QB is finished after 5 games witb a new team, but Jones who has been bad for 3+ years, still has hope. The inconsistency, homerism and dishonesty is truly stunning.
You can bet on Jones. I'll bet on Wilson.
Why do you ALWAYS have to bring Daniel Jones into the conversation? Why is it impossible for people to evaluate Russell Wilson simply because Jones hasn’t been good? You constantly try to throw off the topic at hand and somehow integrate Jones into the equation.
And another thing. Wilson is 33 years old and making over $40M per season, so you’re damn right people expect him to be a hell of a lot better than Jones. Some of you are consistently using Jones’ draft status as the reason he better be a stud. Why aren’t people allowed to hold Wilson to the same standard after signing the largest contract in NFL history? No gives a shit what he did 5 years ago, he’s making that money NOW. Evaluate what he is now, not in the good ole days. Oh, and keep Jones out of every freakin thread
am i allowed to evaluate Wilson somewhat on his proven talent and the breadth of his career, or part of his career? Or I must evaluate him on a small sample size, 5-game stretch. Last season, when he wasn't hurt, he was great.
I bring Daniel Jones up bc I'm a Giants fan, and I want to see us aspire to have a great QB, and not settle for someone who hasn't proven anything in 3+ years. And I happen to know you agree with me. You just don't like my style.
Independent of the Giants, his poor performance this year is interesting to examine. It would be very surprising if he just became bad this year. Possible, yes, but I strongly suspect there are major coaching problems in Denver.
I was glad Schoen made the call (per reports) to see Wilson's availability. I would have supported the move if Schoen could make it work.
Now, we could have dodged a major bullet if Wilson has hit the wall. But I'm not ready to declare him flatlined yet. He's got a lot of experience and has always been a problem solver...
he's been brutal for fantasy. there's no doubt. i think he'll come around statistically eventually but who knows when.
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were playing well, it didn't make sense for the Giants to trade for him. The timing of the Giants rise and Wilson's decline would never have resulted in a real window for us.
Independent of the Giants, his poor performance this year is interesting to examine. It would be very surprising if he just became bad this year. Possible, yes, but I strongly suspect there are major coaching problems in Denver.
I was glad Schoen made the call (per reports) to see Wilson's availability. I would have supported the move if Schoen could make it work.
Now, we could have dodged a major bullet if Wilson has hit the wall. But I'm not ready to declare him flatlined yet. He's got a lot of experience and has always been a problem solver...
Oh I like that he made the call. I want the GM to be active, particularly in aggressively pursuing high end QB talent. For me the deal only made would have worked if Wilson had 4+ prime years left. While that was a possibility, I thought the probability was way too low for us to make that kind of investment
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Jared Goff starts on my fantasy teams next week...
he's been brutal for fantasy. there's no doubt. i think he'll come around statistically eventually but who knows when.
The Denver defense is getting me more points that Wilson. I am lucky to be 3-1 at this point but he isn't helping...
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In comment 15850208 Jimmy Googs said:
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Jared Goff starts on my fantasy teams next week...
he's been brutal for fantasy. there's no doubt. i think he'll come around statistically eventually but who knows when.
The Denver defense is getting me more points that Wilson. I am lucky to be 3-1 at this point but he isn't helping...
better to cycle between hot QBs or pickup Geno Smith. I picked up Geno in case Rodgers doesn't get his act together in one league. I don't think I'm playing Geno this week, but another week of lackluster performance ...