Paul Schwartz
@NYPost_Schwartz
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1m
Brian Daboll said Kadarius Toney tweeted his other hamstring - the healthy one - during practice on Thursday. That is why the team left him home and he will miss another game.
If the Giants can go after Toney’s signing bonus, once they release him this offseason. This dude has no intention of playing. He just wants to continue to collect a paycheck for as long he can.
At this point I don't even consider Toney a Giant. It's a shame because in terms of talent, he is one of our better players but you can't game plan with a player like this. Contrarily, I am friends with someone who is a big Nebraska fan and has some friends in the football program. He speaks very highly of Wan'Dale Robinson and his time before he transferred to Kentucky.
After doing nothing for long periods of time. Same thing happened to George Constanza one time.
I’ve been staying out of the Toney debate for the most part, but now this is getting ridiculous. This screams of intentional behavior. How does he tweak the other hamstring when he’s practicing on a limited basis? Or maybe the atrophy joke isn’t that far off and his body really is out of shape from doing nothing.
Sy said there were significant character concerns about Toney.
I’ve been trying to be optimistic. Trying to believe these injuries are all legit. It’s getting very hard to think that this is just a good kid doing what he can to play - but having a lot of bad luck.
It’s tough to rebuild a team when your 1st round pick doesn’t contribute under his rookie contract. I can only hope they either get this kid to play here, or figure out how to make him an attractive trade option somewhere else. That’s a lot of capital to be wasting.
"This is the kind of guy who has all the talent in the world, but is sitting on the bench because no one can fix the problem. He becomes known as a brittle athlete when it's not his fault. You can't just slap electrical stimulations on him, put ice on him and cure the thing. Anyone who pulls his hamstring has to be managed because scar tissue forms and then he is significantly more prone to hamstring pulls."
Who is that about? Not Kadarius Toney.... it's about Jose Reyes
the last time I remember a player having lingering hamstring issues for years was Jose Reyes back in 2003/2004 when he as ~20... it was not something new for him, he had always dealt with hamstring issues and the complications from scar tissue of repeated injuries..
The Mets eventually had to get him to some specialists and he became a durable superstar and franchise icon, until of course his career was derailed when the Mets ran out of money and he had to leave..
If Giants aren't already exploring it, they need to get out to some experts on chronic hamstring issues.
this guy. This was an absolutely horrendous draft pick. Has he found his cleats yet? Maybe he will be missing his jersey or shoulder pads. I am sure a few missed flights are in his future. Anything to not play.
he was projected as a 2nd rounder. I get passing on Parsons and taking the extra 1st from a bad team. Especially given they had character concerns, after being burned on Baker. But Toney also had some potential red flags. Should have drafted Kwity Paye.
Toney showed some real flashes when he was on the field last year, but the dude just cannot get on the field
from a fans perspective (both sides here) is that when it is an injury situation we all fall into two categories:
1) frustrated because he is injured a lot and feel bad for the player because he is trying to get out there but just can't seem to get healthy enough to do it.
or
2) The guy is a bum, never healthy, is wimping out, doesn't care etc.
That then brings fans on either side to battle with each other over "perceive" other biases that may be at play here.
Toney is that lightning rod here because he brings this attention on to himself with his other outside interests, the fact that there were whispers already that football was NOT this guys main interest, that bin many ways he was more gadget player than #1 WR material along with some character red flags that were listed in the pre draft analysis and reports.
You then add the odd circumstance with his cleats his rookie year, missing a lot of time then, missing camp time, getting sick (COVID- twice I believe), getting injured where his toughness was being questioned, having one great game but also in the same game doing something stupid, selfish and out of control- and subsequently being ejected from the game and then the sort of disappearing act late in the year of a losing season where some questioned his WANT TO as far as being on the field.
Toney is as close to crossing the Rubicon, as far as his time here with the Giants goes, as he can get. Anymore oddness, missed time that seems sketchy or odd and he will have written his ticket out of here. His time here will be the draft equivalent of Golladay's FA tenure... Lots of noise, lots of expectation and little to no production.
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
38m
This is a mess for Kadarius Toney and the Giants. Toney told me the other day the previous hamstring problem was different from the one this summer. So 3 different hamstring injuries already this season. 🤦♂️
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
38m
This is a mess for Kadarius Toney and the Giants. Toney told me the other day the previous hamstring problem was different from the one this summer. So 3 different hamstring injuries already this season. 🤦♂️
whats crazy is he has been so lightly used too...so unless he isn't properly taking care of his body...his body shouldn't be fatigue enough to have hamstring issues. So what exactly is the issue here because he has barely played...is he not stretching properly???
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
38m
This is a mess for Kadarius Toney and the Giants. Toney told me the other day the previous hamstring problem was different from the one this summer. So 3 different hamstring injuries already this season. 🤦♂️
whats crazy is he has been so lightly used too...so unless he isn't properly taking care of his body...his body shouldn't be fatigue enough to have hamstring issues. So what exactly is the issue here because he has barely played...is he not stretching properly???
If the Giants can go after Toney’s signing bonus, once they release him this offseason. This dude has no intention of playing. He just wants to continue to collect a paycheck for as long he can.
His contract is fully guaranteed. Why doesn't he intend on ever playing?
If everyone would just assume he isn't playing each week and take it as a bonus when he does. If he ever gets to a point where he can be on the field consistently we can adjust our expectations.
If everyone would just assume he isn't playing each week and take it as a bonus when he does. If he ever gets to a point where he can be on the field consistently we can adjust our expectations.
I think the consensus is he’s just not that interested in actually playing football. I’m in that camp as well but to be fair, if he does have a more significant injury or a tear why don’t the Giants provide that update. The culture of not providing any real injury updates puts the player in a bad position. They know the extent of the injury and the timeline for recovery why can’t they give that upfront?
I have. It's not nothing. It's REALLY painful, and you can't even lift your leg to walk. And once it's done, as we all know, it's very easy to tweak it again if you come back too soon.
And all high-twitch WRs seem to do it. Especially as rookies and early on in their careers. OBJ did. Ferraris spend more time in the shop than they spend on the road. The key to managing and hopefully avoiding hamstring injuries is EXTENSIVE warm-ups and stretching-out before the physical activity.
So at this point, as frustrating as it is, to me, it's an injury, and yes, Toney seems injury-prone in this respect. I was the one who brought up China Doll II.
But I'm not willing to say it's his attitude or he doesn't WANT to play. Especially since the coaches aren't tap-dancing about him, or saying things like "she's coming along" (Parcells on Terry Glenn). They would never throw him under the bus, but they're not dodging the question either.
I wasn't in love with Toney's character either. Getting caught with an assault rifle in his car was a red flag. Generally speaking, nothing good happens to NFL players who are gun-guys.
But none of any of this means Toney doesn't want to play football.. But he sure has had shit luck.
Believe they drafted him. They had to know even more than what Sy was saying because even Sy admitted he wasn't mentioning everything in his review. That aside the first practice with one sneaker? Seriously? I d have had two sneakers on my feet even if they were two sizes too small if I was him . That told me something tight there. Rap music? I could give a crap. Not fond of it but most players probably like it so who cares. Now the injuries? Whatever. Just never should have been the pick.
does anyone really care anymore about Kadarius Toney? Real good chance he's not even on the team next year and that assumes he even makes it to the end of this season.
Hes one of only a few guys who is young and talented enough to be a plus player on the next good Giants team. And obviously we have a gaping hole at his position.
WR might be the 2nd most important position in the NFL at this point. Having one who is good is extremely valuable
As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
I have. It's not nothing. It's REALLY painful, and you can't even lift your leg to walk. And once it's done, as we all know, it's very easy to tweak it again if you come back too soon.
And all high-twitch WRs seem to do it. Especially as rookies and early on in their careers. OBJ did. Ferraris spend more time in the shop than they spend on the road. The key to managing and hopefully avoiding hamstring injuries is EXTENSIVE warm-ups and stretching-out before the physical activity.
So at this point, as frustrating as it is, to me, it's an injury, and yes, Toney seems injury-prone in this respect. I was the one who brought up China Doll II.
But I'm not willing to say it's his attitude or he doesn't WANT to play. Especially since the coaches aren't tap-dancing about him, or saying things like "she's coming along" (Parcells on Terry Glenn). They would never throw him under the bus, but they're not dodging the question either.
I wasn't in love with Toney's character either. Getting caught with an assault rifle in his car was a red flag. Generally speaking, nothing good happens to NFL players who are gun-guys.
But none of any of this means Toney doesn't want to play football.. But he sure has had shit luck.
Nice post David. I remember a while back, when similar doubts about toughness and commitment were being said about perhaps the Giants best ever received, Amani Toomer.
He figured out how to stay healthy, hopefully Toney will. Lots of assumptions being made here about Toney s character.
As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
I have. It's not nothing. It's REALLY painful, and you can't even lift your leg to walk. And once it's done, as we all know, it's very easy to tweak it again if you come back too soon.
And all high-twitch WRs seem to do it. Especially as rookies and early on in their careers. OBJ did. Ferraris spend more time in the shop than they spend on the road. The key to managing and hopefully avoiding hamstring injuries is EXTENSIVE warm-ups and stretching-out before the physical activity.
I think the point is that for two years in a row he has blown off the Giants offseason conditioning program... and then comes to camp and instantly gets soft tissue injuries that keep him out of practice.
It is not unreasonable to think (in fact, it's probably likely) that he is not putting in the conditioning work to be a functional NFL player.
Whether he wants to play or not is besides the point. He doesn't want to put in the work to be able to play.
As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
What bias is that?
You don't think that your desire to give him the benefit of the doubt and not string ANY of his history together as a trend is a bias unto itself?
RE: RE: How many of you have actually pulled a hamstring?
I have. It's not nothing. It's REALLY painful, and you can't even lift your leg to walk. And once it's done, as we all know, it's very easy to tweak it again if you come back too soon.
And all high-twitch WRs seem to do it. Especially as rookies and early on in their careers. OBJ did. Ferraris spend more time in the shop than they spend on the road. The key to managing and hopefully avoiding hamstring injuries is EXTENSIVE warm-ups and stretching-out before the physical activity.
I think the point is that for two years in a row he has blown off the Giants offseason conditioning program... and then comes to camp and instantly gets soft tissue injuries that keep him out of practice.
It is not unreasonable to think (in fact, it's probably likely) that he is not putting in the conditioning work to be a functional NFL player.
Whether he wants to play or not is besides the point. He doesn't want to put in the work to be able to play.
At least that's what he's shown so far.
Yep, many of these great athletes come into the league not understanding what it takes to be a pro. Some figure it out, some don’t. Stating that Toney is trending towards the latter is fair
As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
What bias is that?
You don't think that your desire to give him the benefit of the doubt and not string ANY of his history together as a trend is a bias unto itself?
Guy I didn’t say I have no biases. I just wanted to know which one. I don’t know why you’re so combative with me, we have differing feelings about Toney. It’s not a big deal.
And obviously he has a injury trend, I don’t think I’ve ever disputed that.
It’s about his commitment to being the best football player possible
It seems he came to training camp injured if my memory is correct his first 2 seasons with Giants… I may be wrong.
The red flag before the draft on Toney was his commitment to football
Was football his number 1 priority?
To me he has become a sunk cost now
Do we see him the second half of the season
So far 2 catches and 2 runs( awesome production)
we draft a WR over 6 foot four with muscles and burner speed
like like every other NFL team has? We draft guys whom barely reach Roger Goodells belt buckle when being introduced.
As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
What bias is that?
You don't think that your desire to give him the benefit of the doubt and not string ANY of his history together as a trend is a bias unto itself?
Guy I didn’t say I have no biases. I just wanted to know which one. I don’t know why you’re so combative with me, we have differing feelings about Toney. It’s not a big deal.
And obviously he has a injury trend, I don’t think I’ve ever disputed that.
Well, I know that the topic of racial bias came up for you yesterday, and I wanted to be clear that I wasn't insinuating anything of the sort; I read your previous post (asking me what bias that might be) as you being ready to pounce if the bias in question was race-based, so I apologize if I came across as combative because of the tone that I assumed in your prior post.
As for his prior history being a trend, my point is that it goes beyond injuries, and that the repeated injuries are part of a larger issue, which also includes things like being a fucking dolt on social media (his tweet following the Ruggs incident last year was one of the most tone deaf social media moments I've seen from a Giants player) and not having cleats for minicamp last year. And then that cleats thing could make someone wonder about the legitimacy of Toney's reasons for skipping voluntary workouts this past offseason. Any one of those incidents, by itself, can be explained away. So can his injuries. I just don't see them as isolated incidents; I see the entirety as a reflection of Toney's persona.
I view all of those things as being connected. You seem to not see those incidents as connected in any way. I don't know you at all, so I can't even begin to guess how your personal experience my inform your opinion on Toney. I can tell share from my own background, I spent several years overseeing a fairly large team at a former job - one of my direct reports always burned through all of their PTO by Q3 and then had a multitude of excuses for why they still missed time even after they were out of PTO. Sure, it was unpaid at that point, but I still had to scramble to get that person's responsibilities covered multiple times, always on short notice. Over the course of almost three years, I think this employee must have had half a dozen grandparents pass away (kidding, but not entirely kidding).
Some people might be inclined to think, "oh, that's awful, and so unlucky."
And some others might be inclined to think, "I might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. This employee is full of shit."
I fall into the latter group. Is it fair to suggest that you fall into the former?
RE: RE: How many of you have actually pulled a hamstring?
I have. It's not nothing. It's REALLY painful, and you can't even lift your leg to walk. And once it's done, as we all know, it's very easy to tweak it again if you come back too soon.
And all high-twitch WRs seem to do it. Especially as rookies and early on in their careers. OBJ did. Ferraris spend more time in the shop than they spend on the road. The key to managing and hopefully avoiding hamstring injuries is EXTENSIVE warm-ups and stretching-out before the physical activity.
So at this point, as frustrating as it is, to me, it's an injury, and yes, Toney seems injury-prone in this respect. I was the one who brought up China Doll II.
But I'm not willing to say it's his attitude or he doesn't WANT to play. Especially since the coaches aren't tap-dancing about him, or saying things like "she's coming along" (Parcells on Terry Glenn). They would never throw him under the bus, but they're not dodging the question either.
I wasn't in love with Toney's character either. Getting caught with an assault rifle in his car was a red flag. Generally speaking, nothing good happens to NFL players who are gun-guys.
But none of any of this means Toney doesn't want to play football.. But he sure has had shit luck.
Nice post David. I remember a while back, when similar doubts about toughness and commitment were being said about perhaps the Giants best ever received, Amani Toomer.
He figured out how to stay healthy, hopefully Toney will. Lots of assumptions being made here about Toney s character.
Hmm, Toomer had an ACL not exactly the same thing.
we usually tend to agree on things. I’m confused as to how you think Toney’s absences can be anything other than the fact that he just doesn’t really have that much interest in football.
He has shown that since day 1 - and it has gotten progressively worse.
As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
What bias is that?
You don't think that your desire to give him the benefit of the doubt and not string ANY of his history together as a trend is a bias unto itself?
Guy I didn’t say I have no biases. I just wanted to know which one. I don’t know why you’re so combative with me, we have differing feelings about Toney. It’s not a big deal.
And obviously he has a injury trend, I don’t think I’ve ever disputed that.
Well, I know that the topic of racial bias came up for you yesterday, and I wanted to be clear that I wasn't insinuating anything of the sort; I read your previous post (asking me what bias that might be) as you being ready to pounce if the bias in question was race-based, so I apologize if I came across as combative because of the tone that I assumed in your prior post.
As for his prior history being a trend, my point is that it goes beyond injuries, and that the repeated injuries are part of a larger issue, which also includes things like being a fucking dolt on social media (his tweet following the Ruggs incident last year was one of the most tone deaf social media moments I've seen from a Giants player) and not having cleats for minicamp last year. And then that cleats thing could make someone wonder about the legitimacy of Toney's reasons for skipping voluntary workouts this past offseason. Any one of those incidents, by itself, can be explained away. So can his injuries. I just don't see them as isolated incidents; I see the entirety as a reflection of Toney's persona.
I view all of those things as being connected. You seem to not see those incidents as connected in any way. I don't know you at all, so I can't even begin to guess how your personal experience my inform your opinion on Toney. I can tell share from my own background, I spent several years overseeing a fairly large team at a former job - one of my direct reports always burned through all of their PTO by Q3 and then had a multitude of excuses for why they still missed time even after they were out of PTO. Sure, it was unpaid at that point, but I still had to scramble to get that person's responsibilities covered multiple times, always on short notice. Over the course of almost three years, I think this employee must have had half a dozen grandparents pass away (kidding, but not entirely kidding).
Some people might be inclined to think, "oh, that's awful, and so unlucky."
And some others might be inclined to think, "I might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. This employee is full of shit."
I fall into the latter group. Is it fair to suggest that you fall into the former?
I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
For one bad hammy puts the other in jeopardy. Perhaps he is not listening to his body and trying to rush back too soon.
Believe it or not, it seems like he wants to be out there.
That said, it is beyond frustrating that this guy cannot string together consecutive practices without tweaking something. Idk how he gets ready for the season, but something has to change if he wants to have an impactful career. Otherwise, he’ll be out of the league by 26
I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
I only compared him to Robinson once and that was sarcasm.
You're still sidestepping the main question, IMO. You see the non-injury-related issues with Toney as being completely separate from his injury history?
you could easily make the case football isn't that important to him, especially now with the guaranteed money owed. Giants are protecting him for now, but it's not going to last forever. Watch their actions, don't take words as gospel.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If he’s faking it
I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
I only compared him to Robinson once and that was sarcasm.
You're still sidestepping the main question, IMO. You see the non-injury-related issues with Toney as being completely separate from his injury history?
The non injury related issues do not make me think he’s faking his injuries.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If he’s faking it
I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
I only compared him to Robinson once and that was sarcasm.
You're still sidestepping the main question, IMO. You see the non-injury-related issues with Toney as being completely separate from his injury history?
The non injury related issues do not make me think he’s faking his injuries.
Ok, I've been trying to be respectful.
You're fucking obtuse. Enjoy Toney. You deserve him.
you could easily make the case football isn't that important to him, especially now with the guaranteed money owed. Giants are protecting him for now, but it's not going to last forever. Watch their actions, don't take words as gospel.
Which is why I said that maybe the Giants feel being "injured" is better for his trade value, such as it is, than being a pain in the ass who refuses to play
I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
I only compared him to Robinson once and that was sarcasm.
You're still sidestepping the main question, IMO. You see the non-injury-related issues with Toney as being completely separate from his injury history?
The non injury related issues do not make me think he’s faking his injuries.
Ok, I've been trying to be respectful.
You're fucking obtuse. Enjoy Toney. You deserve him.
Cool, insults because we disagree on a football player.
It's the refusal to answer the question that gets right to the core of the issue.
And for the record, you made the Robinson comparison multiple times this morning alone, including a follow-up explanation that made it clear that your comparison was not made in jest.
I guess someone on this planet has to be a Toney Stan. Might as well be you.
It's the refusal to answer the question that gets right to the core of the issue.
And for the record, you made the Robinson comparison multiple times this morning alone, including a follow-up explanation that made it clear that your comparison was not made in jest.
I guess someone on this planet has to be a Toney Stan. Might as well be you.
What question am I not answering?
What follow up made that clear?
I stated pretty clear that I don’t think any giants player is faking injures. Clearly I would be a “Stan” for whatever player was getting these accusations.
But please, continue dropping insults at people with different football views than you.
He had a chronic hamstring issue. It’s not new but he needs to just stop and rest for a long time. The poster above that mentioned Jose Reyes is exactly right. Another guy that goes through this constantly in soccer “star” Reyna (Claudio’s son). Guy is always hurt. Chronic hamstring issues.
He’d be helping us out if he just retired and pursued his music career though.
was this guy in football shape when he came to camp?
It's the refusal to answer the question that gets right to the core of the issue.
And for the record, you made the Robinson comparison multiple times this morning alone, including a follow-up explanation that made it clear that your comparison was not made in jest.
I guess someone on this planet has to be a Toney Stan. Might as well be you.
What question am I not answering?
What follow up made that clear?
I stated pretty clear that I don’t think any giants player is faking injures. Clearly I would be a “Stan” for whatever player was getting these accusations.
But please, continue dropping insults at people with different football views than you.
In the wandale thread my comment was based on the comment I’m responding to. What he described sounded very similar to the Toney situation.
That does not indicate that my comments about Wandale faking injuries weren’t sarcasm.
a fan base that hates its own players the way this one does.
Well I'm sure it's every fan base, but I agree. It's absurd the over the top armchair expert analyses and hatred for players... lol. If a player is on my team I root for them to succeed plain and simple. I may call them out for something I perceive but yeah a lot of the comments are ridiculous. And clearly a trigger for me, most particularly when the ire and nasty condescending comments turns toward posters with different opinions.
a fan base that hates its own players the way this one does.
Well I'm sure it's every fan base, but I agree. It's absurd the over the top armchair expert analyses and hatred for players... lol. If a player is on my team I root for them to succeed plain and simple. I may call them out for something I perceive but yeah a lot of the comments are ridiculous. And clearly a trigger for me, most particularly when the ire and nasty condescending comments turns toward posters with different opinions.
a fan base that hates its own players the way this one does.
Well I'm sure it's every fan base, but I agree. It's absurd the over the top armchair expert analyses and hatred for players... lol. If a player is on my team I root for them to succeed plain and simple. I may call them out for something I perceive but yeah a lot of the comments are ridiculous. And clearly a trigger for me, most particularly when the ire and nasty condescending comments turns toward posters with different opinions.
Like it’s gotten way worse lately right?
Could be just my perception but yeah I would definitely say a big yes.
a fan base that hates its own players the way this one does.
Players?
I don't think that's true. I think the fanbase hates the extended stretch of awful football. I think the fanbase hates the previous GM (or most of the fanbase, there are still some pretty loyal DG fans even here on BBI). And I think the fanbase hates seeing a player who cares less about the team than the fans do.
May 2021
- Issues with his shoes at mini camp, foot/calf injury
June 2021
- Doesn't show up at OTAs despite signing injury waiver
July 2021
- COVID
Aug 2021
- Missed 2+ weeks of training camp with "aggravated" injury
Sept 2021
- "Limited" in practice during Week 1, plays 5 snaps in opening game. Minimal contributions in first three games
Oct 2021:
-6 catches vs. New Orleans
-Breakout game vs. Dallas before being ejected. Also injured his ankle in that game, which he aggravated the following week.
-Missed Week 7, returned Week 8 but injured his thumb after catching 4 passes
Nov 2021:
-Limited in practice, one catch in Week 9
-7 catches Week 11
-Inactive Week 12 (oblique/quad)
Dec 2021:
-Inactive week 13 (oblique)
-Inactive week 14 (oblique)
-COVID (again)
-Inactive week 15
-After 4 catches in Week 16, misses practice all week 17 with shoulder injury
Jan 2022
-Inactive week 17 (shoulder)
-Inactive week 18
April 2022
-Skips first week of OTAs (attends house party)
May 2022
-Offseason knee surgery reported
July 2022
-PUP list (Knee)
Aug 2022
-Injured in practice, inactive for preseason opener
-Misses virtually all of training camp with knee/leg injuries
Sept 2022
-Limited action in 1st two games
-Inactive weeks 3-4
-Both hamstrings hurt, inactive week 5
Let this guy be on the field for one month without issue before talking about him again. If you can't play, it really doesn't matter if you're "electric" or whatever the hell you want to call him.
Looking like the only good thing about last years 1st round pick was the fact we got Neal and Thibs out of this years draft. This team is going to have to draft 3-4 WRs next year.
faking it. The issue is his style of play, combined with his commitment to proper training. His style of start, stop, a lot of sudden movements, that put a lot of strain on his legs.
He focuses more on his musical career in the off-season, so his legs aren't ready for the rigors of playing WR in the pros. I really don't think this is a dodge. I think what the coaches say about him practicing hard, paying attention in class is true.
BUT, until he trains the right way to minimize these soft tissue injuries, he will be useful. They won't give up on him, because there is a lot of talent there. Untapped though it may be.
May 2021
- Issues with his shoes at mini camp, foot/calf injury
June 2021
- Doesn't show up at OTAs despite signing injury waiver
July 2021
- COVID
Aug 2021
- Missed 2+ weeks of training camp with "aggravated" injury
Sept 2021
- "Limited" in practice during Week 1, plays 5 snaps in opening game. Minimal contributions in first three games
Oct 2021:
-6 catches vs. New Orleans
-Breakout game vs. Dallas before being ejected. Also injured his ankle in that game, which he aggravated the following week.
-Missed Week 7, returned Week 8 but injured his thumb after catching 4 passes
Nov 2021:
-Limited in practice, one catch in Week 9
-7 catches Week 11
-Inactive Week 12 (oblique/quad)
Dec 2021:
-Inactive week 13 (oblique)
-Inactive week 14 (oblique)
-COVID (again)
-Inactive week 15
-After 4 catches in Week 16, misses practice all week 17 with shoulder injury
Jan 2022
-Inactive week 17 (shoulder)
-Inactive week 18
April 2022 -Skips first week of OTAs (attends house party)
May 2022
-Offseason knee surgery reported
July 2022
-PUP list (Knee)
Aug 2022
-Injured in practice, inactive for preseason opener
-Misses virtually all of training camp with knee/leg injuries
Sept 2022
-Limited action in 1st two games
-Inactive weeks 3-4
-Both hamstrings hurt, inactive week 5
Let this guy be on the field for one month without issue before talking about him again. If you can't play, it really doesn't matter if you're "electric" or whatever the hell you want to call him.
What if your source for the text I put in bold above?
faking it. The issue is his style of play, combined with his commitment to proper training. His style of start, stop, a lot of sudden movements, that put a lot of strain on his legs.
How can his style of play be the cause of his injuries at this point when he never actually plays? Maybe it's his style of not playing that causes the injuries?
RE: We can reduce Toney down to one of the following equations
Take out Neal, put in Thibodeaux. If they only had one pick this past draft (and had taken Parsons the year before, as this exercise suggests), they'd have taken Neal. They only took Thibs ahead of Neal because they had two OTs on the board that they liked, but only one pass rusher.
It's Toney + Thibodeaux vs. Parsons.
Thibs is going to have to be really special to win that side by himself.
That one of the people touting the few good picks Dave made this week, is now accusing one of his picks of faking injuries. Do we take back the thank you letters?
RE: RE: We can reduce Toney down to one of the following equations
Take out Neal, put in Thibodeaux. If they only had one pick this past draft (and had taken Parsons the year before, as this exercise suggests), they'd have taken Neal. They only took Thibs ahead of Neal because they had two OTs on the board that they liked, but only one pass rusher.
It's Toney + Thibodeaux vs. Parsons.
Thibs is going to have to be really special to win that side by himself.
The Giants would have never gotten Parsons. The Cowboys wanted him all along and they knew we were not taking him. If we ever had any desire to take Parson the Cowboys never do that trade with the Eagles and take Parsons at their own pick. The fact that we had telegraphed Parson was off our board was why the Cowboys felt comfortable making that deal with Philly.
Thus, now we would have Davonta Smith and either Thibs or Neal depending on who we wanted more. Instead of Toeny, Thibs, and Neal.
your obsession with what i say on this board is weird. let it go.
Toney doesn't want to be a football player. I'm not sure what that has to do with Gettleman, or why you brought it up. Gettleman picked him, it is his wasted pick. There were reports that he didn't even want to trade down and wanted Parsons, and didn't want Toney.
Regardless of whether that is true, he's the GM and the pick is his.
It’s always “let’s see how it plays out, how can you criticize, nobody knows what goes on inside the facility” blah blah blah.
But because it’s a player you don’t like you’re automatically 100% right and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. You expose your hypocrisy almost daily.
Accusing a player of faking an injury with zero access to the medical records, knowledge of what’s going on behind the scenes, etc is such a stupid take I don’t even know where to begin.
Like you’ve said a million times, let it play out.
According to the asshats, DG/JJ were concerned about Micah Parsons' character issues and were hoping another team would draft him before the Giants picked. In hindsight, it looks like he was worth the risk.
May 2021
- Issues with his shoes at mini camp, foot/calf injury
June 2021
- Doesn't show up at OTAs despite signing injury waiver
July 2021
- COVID
Aug 2021
- Missed 2+ weeks of training camp with "aggravated" injury
Sept 2021
- "Limited" in practice during Week 1, plays 5 snaps in opening game. Minimal contributions in first three games
Oct 2021:
-6 catches vs. New Orleans
-Breakout game vs. Dallas before being ejected. Also injured his ankle in that game, which he aggravated the following week.
-Missed Week 7, returned Week 8 but injured his thumb after catching 4 passes
Nov 2021:
-Limited in practice, one catch in Week 9
-7 catches Week 11
-Inactive Week 12 (oblique/quad)
Dec 2021:
-Inactive week 13 (oblique)
-Inactive week 14 (oblique)
-COVID (again)
-Inactive week 15
-After 4 catches in Week 16, misses practice all week 17 with shoulder injury
Jan 2022
-Inactive week 17 (shoulder)
-Inactive week 18
April 2022
-Skips first week of OTAs (attends house party)
May 2022
-Offseason knee surgery reported
July 2022
-PUP list (Knee)
Aug 2022
-Injured in practice, inactive for preseason opener
-Misses virtually all of training camp with knee/leg injuries
Sept 2022
-Limited action in 1st two games
-Inactive weeks 3-4
-Both hamstrings hurt, inactive week 5
Let this guy be on the field for one month without issue before talking about him again. If you can't play, it really doesn't matter if you're "electric" or whatever the hell you want to call him.
What if your source for the text I put in bold above?
Wes Steinberg tweeted Toney skipped OTA's to attend a house party.
May 2021
- Issues with his shoes at mini camp, foot/calf injury
June 2021
- Doesn't show up at OTAs despite signing injury waiver
July 2021
- COVID
Aug 2021
- Missed 2+ weeks of training camp with "aggravated" injury
Sept 2021
- "Limited" in practice during Week 1, plays 5 snaps in opening game. Minimal contributions in first three games
Oct 2021:
-6 catches vs. New Orleans
-Breakout game vs. Dallas before being ejected. Also injured his ankle in that game, which he aggravated the following week.
-Missed Week 7, returned Week 8 but injured his thumb after catching 4 passes
Nov 2021:
-Limited in practice, one catch in Week 9
-7 catches Week 11
-Inactive Week 12 (oblique/quad)
Dec 2021:
-Inactive week 13 (oblique)
-Inactive week 14 (oblique)
-COVID (again)
-Inactive week 15
-After 4 catches in Week 16, misses practice all week 17 with shoulder injury
Jan 2022
-Inactive week 17 (shoulder)
-Inactive week 18
April 2022
-Skips first week of OTAs (attends house party)
May 2022
-Offseason knee surgery reported
July 2022
-PUP list (Knee)
Aug 2022
-Injured in practice, inactive for preseason opener
-Misses virtually all of training camp with knee/leg injuries
Sept 2022
-Limited action in 1st two games
-Inactive weeks 3-4
-Both hamstrings hurt, inactive week 5
Let this guy be on the field for one month without issue before talking about him again. If you can't play, it really doesn't matter if you're "electric" or whatever the hell you want to call him.
What if your source for the text I put in bold above?
Wes Steinberg tweeted Toney skipped OTA's to attend a house party.
He never sounds disappointed he can't play and doesn't seem to care. It is always trading jabs with reporters. He will never be anything. Wasted pick.
The smoke's been there the whole time. The Giants medical and training staff felt like Toney could play vs. the Jets and he said he couldn't. They felt he could play last year and he said he couldn't. They supplied him the proper footwear (millions of options) and he said he couldn't. In everyone's years of following NFL football does anyone ever remember a guy missing extended time due to not having the proper cleats?
What do you think the Giants med/training staff thinks of the notion Toney is faking it?
This is a big problem - he's stealing money. Anyone of us could do the same at our jobs and eventually, we'd get fired. Toney will too. Don't think Mara isn't aware of this.
He never sounds disappointed he can't play and doesn't seem to care. It is always trading jabs with reporters. He will never be anything. Wasted pick.
The smoke's been there the whole time. The Giants medical and training staff felt like Toney could play vs. the Jets and he said he couldn't. They felt he could play last year and he said he couldn't. They supplied him the proper footwear (millions of options) and he said he couldn't. In everyone's years of following NFL football does anyone ever remember a guy missing extended time due to not having the proper cleats?
What do you think the Giants med/training staff thinks of the notion Toney is faking it?
This is a big problem - he's stealing money. Anyone of us could do the same at our jobs and eventually, we'd get fired. Toney will too. Don't think Mara isn't aware of this.
Do we ignore that he was out there running some drills in socks?
And then we are going to get on him for being even-keeling in interviews?
Sheesh... imagine if, idk, a HOF QB on the Giants was always positive and even-keeled during pressers and interviews..even after bad games where he made mistakes.. sheesh that would be crazy!
He had a chronic hamstring issue. It’s not new but he needs to just stop and rest for a long time. The poster above that mentioned Jose Reyes is exactly right. Another guy that goes through this constantly in soccer “star” Reyna (Claudio’s son). Guy is always hurt. Chronic hamstring issues.
He’d be helping us out if he just retired and pursued his music career though.
But with proper treatment and adjustments...
Jose Reyes became one of the best players in baseball and was extremely durable for half a decade once solved...
Soo... I'd rather they just find the right guys to deal with the problem and help him contribute on the field, wouldn't you?
He never sounds disappointed he can't play and doesn't seem to care. It is always trading jabs with reporters. He will never be anything. Wasted pick.
The smoke's been there the whole time. The Giants medical and training staff felt like Toney could play vs. the Jets and he said he couldn't. They felt he could play last year and he said he couldn't. They supplied him the proper footwear (millions of options) and he said he couldn't. In everyone's years of following NFL football does anyone ever remember a guy missing extended time due to not having the proper cleats?
What do you think the Giants med/training staff thinks of the notion Toney is faking it?
This is a big problem - he's stealing money. Anyone of us could do the same at our jobs and eventually, we'd get fired. Toney will too. Don't think Mara isn't aware of this.
Define “extended time”
Missing even a single practice due to footwear would be more extended than I'd feel comfortable excusing.
He had a chronic hamstring issue. It’s not new but he needs to just stop and rest for a long time. The poster above that mentioned Jose Reyes is exactly right. Another guy that goes through this constantly in soccer “star” Reyna (Claudio’s son). Guy is always hurt. Chronic hamstring issues.
He’d be helping us out if he just retired and pursued his music career though.
But with proper treatment and adjustments...
Jose Reyes became one of the best players in baseball and was extremely durable for half a decade once solved...
Soo... I'd rather they just find the right guys to deal with the problem and help him contribute on the field, wouldn't you?
I have a sneaking suspicion that if you found experts who could somehow solve the mystery of Toney's hamstrings, you'd suddenly find out that he also has a chronic injury in some other unrelated body part. Just a hunch.
Jose Reyes became one of the best players in baseball and was extremely durable for half a decade once solved...
Soo... I'd rather they just find the right guys to deal with the problem and help him contribute on the field, wouldn't you?
That is fair, except that Reyes struggled with a single injury, his hamstrings. Toney, on the other hand, has been out for a foot, an ankle, a shoulder, an oblique, a knee, and now, hamstrings. So it isn't the case where he needs someone to solve one issue.
Big ego,.smart mouth,media individualists are not part of the new regime. That's why I don't think Odell gets back here. Toney is a bum, people catered to his BS trying to get him into the system but The new Giant system is made up of the island of Lost Toys throwaways and veterans who need to prove themselves. These guys may not have talent but they sure try hard. You know KT does not train. He didn't tear his hamstring he just strained it and it's been like that for a year. Nobody recovers that slow unless they are not taking their physical therapy and training seriously. I suspect coaching staff has thrown in the towel this guy and just trying to keep him healthy enough so some sucker team will pick him up
Jose Reyes became one of the best players in baseball and was extremely durable for half a decade once solved...
Soo... I'd rather they just find the right guys to deal with the problem and help him contribute on the field, wouldn't you?
That is fair, except that Reyes struggled with a single injury, his hamstrings. Toney, on the other hand, has been out for a foot, an ankle, a shoulder, an oblique, a knee, and now, hamstrings. So it isn't the case where he needs someone to solve one issue.
Oh, I forgot one, he was out for a calf too.
I don't think Toney is faking his injuries, but I do wonder if he's willing to play with pain. Every player in the NFL is "hurt" right now, but only a few are "injured".
Intentional or not, he won't be playing for the Giants this year and won't be on the team next year. I fall in the camp of intentional, but it doesn't really matter. And I wouldn't blame this pick on DG - it has JJ written all over it.
I am not upset. Perhaps knowing the role that JJ played in the selection (and I have no proof it was his pick), contributed to his early dismissal. And if there was a great pick last year (like Parsons), we might win an extra game or two and we are stuck with JJ.
We can move on from him next year. Have to hope he can contribute this year. I doubt he will.
I don't think Toney is faking his injuries, but I do wonder if he's willing to play with pain. Every player in the NFL is "hurt" right now, but only a few are "injured".
This is the point that I think Toney's few remaining defenders seem to miss. Toney is very unlikely to be faking his injuries in the most accurate sense of the word. His injuries themselves cannot be faked to such an extent that they would fool an NFL team doctor or training staff.
However, if you think NFL teams perform a diagnostic exam on every player every day, you're kidding yourself. The first, and most important, step in the process for a player to end up on the injured list is self-diagnosis. A player complains to trainers/doctors about some sort of pain or discomfort, it gets examined, and then diagnosis/prognosis/treatment follows. In this way, it's not possible for a player to trick the medical staff into diagnosing an injury that does not exist.
Here's the thing - on any given day, any active player almost definitely has enough bumps and bruises and scrapes, strains, and (minor) sprains that they are in some discomfort or outright pain. Not all of them will even alert the training staff for a lot of that discomfort. But if they did, I feel confident in saying that just about all of them would end up on the injury report for something. They avoid that by making their own decision to play through discomfort because they want to play, and they don't want some doctor or other medical professional telling them that they can't.
But some players will go to the med staff over every bump and bruise. Some do it because they genuinely don't realize how much baseline physical discomfort comes with the job description. Some do it to err on the side of caution (I would take no issue if Barkley was in constant conversation with members of the NYG medical team every single day last season because of his recovery from a serious injury). Some do it because they genuinely don't want to play through the discomfort at all.
That last group, they're not faking in the sense that their injuries are lies, per se. But their injuries might very well be of the sort severity that most other players would play through. And if that's the case, they're either doing it because they don't care enough about playing to make it worthwhile to play through discomfort, or just because they're wusses who have low pain tolerance. I find it really hard to believe that there are many NFL players who fall into that category, so I'm left categorizing just about all of that last group into the header of "football just isn't important enough to some players to get them to play through the same discomfort that their teammates do."
He never sounds disappointed he can't play and doesn't seem to care. It is always trading jabs with reporters. He will never be anything. Wasted pick.
The smoke's been there the whole time. The Giants medical and training staff felt like Toney could play vs. the Jets and he said he couldn't. They felt he could play last year and he said he couldn't. They supplied him the proper footwear (millions of options) and he said he couldn't. In everyone's years of following NFL football does anyone ever remember a guy missing extended time due to not having the proper cleats?
What do you think the Giants med/training staff thinks of the notion Toney is faking it?
This is a big problem - he's stealing money. Anyone of us could do the same at our jobs and eventually, we'd get fired. Toney will too. Don't think Mara isn't aware of this.
I own my business, I have spent the last 30 years managing people. I smelled the Toney bullshit like a fart in a car immediately. I predicted this almost to a T. Not looking for any kind props and this is in no way an I told you so because the evidence was so plain I am staggered that everyone didn't see it. You can hear it in voice when he talks about missing time.
HE DOESN'T CARE
He will end up with all the guaranteed money from that contract and not much else.
I don't think Toney is faking his injuries, but I do wonder if he's willing to play with pain. Every player in the NFL is "hurt" right now, but only a few are "injured".
This is the point that I think Toney's few remaining defenders seem to miss. Toney is very unlikely to be faking his injuries in the most accurate sense of the word. His injuries themselves cannot be faked to such an extent that they would fool an NFL team doctor or training staff.
However, if you think NFL teams perform a diagnostic exam on every player every day, you're kidding yourself. The first, and most important, step in the process for a player to end up on the injured list is self-diagnosis. A player complains to trainers/doctors about some sort of pain or discomfort, it gets examined, and then diagnosis/prognosis/treatment follows. In this way, it's not possible for a player to trick the medical staff into diagnosing an injury that does not exist.
Here's the thing - on any given day, any active player almost definitely has enough bumps and bruises and scrapes, strains, and (minor) sprains that they are in some discomfort or outright pain. Not all of them will even alert the training staff for a lot of that discomfort. But if they did, I feel confident in saying that just about all of them would end up on the injury report for something. They avoid that by making their own decision to play through discomfort because they want to play, and they don't want some doctor or other medical professional telling them that they can't.
But some players will go to the med staff over every bump and bruise. Some do it because they genuinely don't realize how much baseline physical discomfort comes with the job description. Some do it to err on the side of caution (I would take no issue if Barkley was in constant conversation with members of the NYG medical team every single day last season because of his recovery from a serious injury). Some do it because they genuinely don't want to play through the discomfort at all.
That last group, they're not faking in the sense that their injuries are lies, per se. But their injuries might very well be of the sort severity that most other players would play through. And if that's the case, they're either doing it because they don't care enough about playing to make it worthwhile to play through discomfort, or just because they're wusses who have low pain tolerance. I find it really hard to believe that there are many NFL players who fall into that category, so I'm left categorizing just about all of that last group into the header of "football just isn't important enough to some players to get them to play through the same discomfort that their teammates do."
I agree with the nuance that you present. He probably isn't faking. A better word might be milking.
I don’t think he is faking an injury any more than
you could easily make the case football isn't that important to him, especially now with the guaranteed money owed. Giants are protecting him for now, but it's not going to last forever. Watch their actions, don't take words as gospel.
Pffft. Whatever. Hamstrings, something, something, Jose Reyes.
Lol.
Some people here just refuse to see things for what they actually are. It must be exhausting doing the mental gymnastics to continue with excuse after excuse.
Yep I guess it's impossible that he is actually hurt
If this coaching staff really is covering for him like this its pretty pathetic. As I said in another thread, I'm spoiled, I expect every coach to act like Tom Coughlin and thats not really fair...not every coach is a HOFer
Maybe these guys have their reasons for lying, but it's very weird to me.
know he's faking and refusing, then so too does the brass, and next comes cause for voiding the guarantees.
What's his plan? being useless for 2 or 3 more years and never play another down? Getting caught in a lie puts his money at risk. Is he that afraid of playing football?
He may be putting in less than full effort to get healthy, or less than full effort to play football, but sans real evidence, I doubt he's faking it. Such notions are the result of non-stop Toney hate on the internet. Maybe his heart isn't in football, but it is still a long stretch from that to alleging he'll do anything to not play football.
No clue if he's milking or faking his injury. None. But listen to what a lot of people supposedly in the know-coaches aside to the media-think about him...not much.
know he's faking and refusing, then so too does the brass, and next comes cause for voiding the guarantees.
What's his plan? being useless for 2 or 3 more years and never play another down? Getting caught in a lie puts his money at risk. Is he that afraid of playing football?
He may be putting in less than full effort to get healthy, or less than full effort to play football, but sans real evidence, I doubt he's faking it. Such notions are the result of non-stop Toney hate on the internet. Maybe his heart isn't in football, but it is still a long stretch from that to alleging he'll do anything to not play football.
I’m don’t think he’s faking it. I just think his desire to play is extremely lacking and, he hasn’t proven otherwise.
I’m not sure what the $$ situation is, I would cut him though. Sometimes we get hung up on what the particular thing is. With Toney, its something and always will be something.
No, its not just injuries with him. Multiple posters here have cued you in, its wild to me some people still think this is a case of someone with bad injury luck and nothing else going on.
Saying he’s a piece of shit or asshole is definitely over the top. Questioning his commitment and desire to play football are entirely accurate.
Remember, this regime challenged Toney early on. Word gets around on guys especially when scouting. Remember what Sy said.
He’s a non factor and will be gone soon enough. Why wait I don’t know.
People saying he does care about football seems to be anti rap
He is not the ONLY player to have other interest I wager most parents on this thread have their kids exposed to multiple things … Kayvon is ONLY using football to fuel his foundation for off field activities …. But no complaints to this magnitude why? He has not done anything but talk and not backing it up as of yet.
Next why didn’t/don’t anyone of you arm chair athletes play for the Giants I mean it is so easy from all the shit talking …. A lot of you guys are hilarious
I think we would hear some leaks if there were problems in the locker room with him. Hard to see the players backing a malingering. Questioning is off season work is fair play.
Coaches lying for him? Something tells me Saban and BB did not teach BD that is the way you do it. Good luck earning the players trust/respect doing that long term.
It's really unfortunate. With a healthy Toney and Wandale (playing to expectations) this O might be pretty good with our run game.
Wish itwas something like a cracked or bruised ribs. Something like that I think you can question. Hamstrings? IDK, especially at his position and how he plays.
Complaining about the guy doesn't help. These guys put their bodies on the line to entertain us. He didn't get as good as he is without the unbelievable strong desire to play. He will play as soon as he is ready and the doctors clear him. We have to pull for this guy. If (IF) he can get past this, he is trouble for any defense. Cookie Crumbs - ( New Window )
Of all the DG f...ups, this one may ultimately prove to be the worst. Who in their right mind would trade down in Rd 1 to draft a gadget player with a questionable character while presiding over a team with a roster in need of a complete rebuild. And lest we forget, Micah Parsons was available at the Giants normal draft position that year. Just incredulous.
Like I said a few weeks ago, the second coming of Tim Carter. The only difference was Carter wanted to play. It’s pretty obvious this guy doesn’t. Adios.
🤣🤣🤣
I’ve been staying out of the Toney debate for the most part, but now this is getting ridiculous. This screams of intentional behavior. How does he tweak the other hamstring when he’s practicing on a limited basis? Or maybe the atrophy joke isn’t that far off and his body really is out of shape from doing nothing.
I’ve been trying to be optimistic. Trying to believe these injuries are all legit. It’s getting very hard to think that this is just a good kid doing what he can to play - but having a lot of bad luck.
It’s tough to rebuild a team when your 1st round pick doesn’t contribute under his rookie contract. I can only hope they either get this kid to play here, or figure out how to make him an attractive trade option somewhere else. That’s a lot of capital to be wasting.
Who is that about? Not Kadarius Toney.... it's about Jose Reyes
the last time I remember a player having lingering hamstring issues for years was Jose Reyes back in 2003/2004 when he as ~20... it was not something new for him, he had always dealt with hamstring issues and the complications from scar tissue of repeated injuries..
The Mets eventually had to get him to some specialists and he became a durable superstar and franchise icon, until of course his career was derailed when the Mets ran out of money and he had to leave..
If Giants aren't already exploring it, they need to get out to some experts on chronic hamstring issues.
https://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/25/sports/baseball-mets-take-steps-to-prevent-additional-injuries-to-reyes.html - ( New Window )
Just on the surface, he doesn't exactly scream "NY Giants". And then it gets worse from there.
Yet he cleared all our filters?
Toney showed some real flashes when he was on the field last year, but the dude just cannot get on the field
1) frustrated because he is injured a lot and feel bad for the player because he is trying to get out there but just can't seem to get healthy enough to do it.
or
2) The guy is a bum, never healthy, is wimping out, doesn't care etc.
That then brings fans on either side to battle with each other over "perceive" other biases that may be at play here.
Toney is that lightning rod here because he brings this attention on to himself with his other outside interests, the fact that there were whispers already that football was NOT this guys main interest, that bin many ways he was more gadget player than #1 WR material along with some character red flags that were listed in the pre draft analysis and reports.
You then add the odd circumstance with his cleats his rookie year, missing a lot of time then, missing camp time, getting sick (COVID- twice I believe), getting injured where his toughness was being questioned, having one great game but also in the same game doing something stupid, selfish and out of control- and subsequently being ejected from the game and then the sort of disappearing act late in the year of a losing season where some questioned his WANT TO as far as being on the field.
Toney is as close to crossing the Rubicon, as far as his time here with the Giants goes, as he can get. Anymore oddness, missed time that seems sketchy or odd and he will have written his ticket out of here. His time here will be the draft equivalent of Golladay's FA tenure... Lots of noise, lots of expectation and little to no production.
LOL
@JordanRaanan
·
38m
This is a mess for Kadarius Toney and the Giants. Toney told me the other day the previous hamstring problem was different from the one this summer. So 3 different hamstring injuries already this season. 🤦♂️
@JordanRaanan
·
38m
This is a mess for Kadarius Toney and the Giants. Toney told me the other day the previous hamstring problem was different from the one this summer. So 3 different hamstring injuries already this season. 🤦♂️
whats crazy is he has been so lightly used too...so unless he isn't properly taking care of his body...his body shouldn't be fatigue enough to have hamstring issues. So what exactly is the issue here because he has barely played...is he not stretching properly???
but I can understand why some are in camp 2 given your post
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Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
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38m
This is a mess for Kadarius Toney and the Giants. Toney told me the other day the previous hamstring problem was different from the one this summer. So 3 different hamstring injuries already this season. 🤦♂️
whats crazy is he has been so lightly used too...so unless he isn't properly taking care of his body...his body shouldn't be fatigue enough to have hamstring issues. So what exactly is the issue here because he has barely played...is he not stretching properly???
See my post above
His contract is fully guaranteed. Why doesn't he intend on ever playing?
This 100%.
And all high-twitch WRs seem to do it. Especially as rookies and early on in their careers. OBJ did. Ferraris spend more time in the shop than they spend on the road. The key to managing and hopefully avoiding hamstring injuries is EXTENSIVE warm-ups and stretching-out before the physical activity.
So at this point, as frustrating as it is, to me, it's an injury, and yes, Toney seems injury-prone in this respect. I was the one who brought up China Doll II.
But I'm not willing to say it's his attitude or he doesn't WANT to play. Especially since the coaches aren't tap-dancing about him, or saying things like "she's coming along" (Parcells on Terry Glenn). They would never throw him under the bus, but they're not dodging the question either.
I wasn't in love with Toney's character either. Getting caught with an assault rifle in his car was a red flag. Generally speaking, nothing good happens to NFL players who are gun-guys.
But none of any of this means Toney doesn't want to play football.. But he sure has had shit luck.
3rdnlong : 9:04 am : link : reply
How many hamstrings does this guy have?
Should be part of their SnC program. Dynamic stretching to warm up and static stretching to cool down
does anyone really care anymore about Kadarius Toney? Real good chance he's not even on the team next year and that assumes he even makes it to the end of this season.
WR might be the 2nd most important position in the NFL at this point. Having one who is good is extremely valuable
Not if the team feels its better for his trade value to say he is hurt than it is to call him out for not wanting to play
I get that there's $$ involved but that will work itself out and not be crippling. Just a viewpoint from the bush league seats.
Good point, why can't more fans just see that Toney really deserves the benefit of the doubt here?!
🙄
Good luck to both of them. Hope their injuries aren't career ending.
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
Isn’t that Joka ?
And all high-twitch WRs seem to do it. Especially as rookies and early on in their careers. OBJ did. Ferraris spend more time in the shop than they spend on the road. The key to managing and hopefully avoiding hamstring injuries is EXTENSIVE warm-ups and stretching-out before the physical activity.
So at this point, as frustrating as it is, to me, it's an injury, and yes, Toney seems injury-prone in this respect. I was the one who brought up China Doll II.
But I'm not willing to say it's his attitude or he doesn't WANT to play. Especially since the coaches aren't tap-dancing about him, or saying things like "she's coming along" (Parcells on Terry Glenn). They would never throw him under the bus, but they're not dodging the question either.
I wasn't in love with Toney's character either. Getting caught with an assault rifle in his car was a red flag. Generally speaking, nothing good happens to NFL players who are gun-guys.
But none of any of this means Toney doesn't want to play football.. But he sure has had shit luck.
Nice post David. I remember a while back, when similar doubts about toughness and commitment were being said about perhaps the Giants best ever received, Amani Toomer.
He figured out how to stay healthy, hopefully Toney will. Lots of assumptions being made here about Toney s character.
Ha! His other hamstring wanted a participation trophy
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As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
What bias is that?
And all high-twitch WRs seem to do it. Especially as rookies and early on in their careers. OBJ did. Ferraris spend more time in the shop than they spend on the road. The key to managing and hopefully avoiding hamstring injuries is EXTENSIVE warm-ups and stretching-out before the physical activity.
I think the point is that for two years in a row he has blown off the Giants offseason conditioning program... and then comes to camp and instantly gets soft tissue injuries that keep him out of practice.
It is not unreasonable to think (in fact, it's probably likely) that he is not putting in the conditioning work to be a functional NFL player.
Whether he wants to play or not is besides the point. He doesn't want to put in the work to be able to play.
At least that's what he's shown so far.
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In comment 15849444 RicFlair said:
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As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
What bias is that?
You don't think that your desire to give him the benefit of the doubt and not string ANY of his history together as a trend is a bias unto itself?
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I have. It's not nothing. It's REALLY painful, and you can't even lift your leg to walk. And once it's done, as we all know, it's very easy to tweak it again if you come back too soon.
And all high-twitch WRs seem to do it. Especially as rookies and early on in their careers. OBJ did. Ferraris spend more time in the shop than they spend on the road. The key to managing and hopefully avoiding hamstring injuries is EXTENSIVE warm-ups and stretching-out before the physical activity.
I think the point is that for two years in a row he has blown off the Giants offseason conditioning program... and then comes to camp and instantly gets soft tissue injuries that keep him out of practice.
It is not unreasonable to think (in fact, it's probably likely) that he is not putting in the conditioning work to be a functional NFL player.
Whether he wants to play or not is besides the point. He doesn't want to put in the work to be able to play.
At least that's what he's shown so far.
Yep, many of these great athletes come into the league not understanding what it takes to be a pro. Some figure it out, some don’t. Stating that Toney is trending towards the latter is fair
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In comment 15849482 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15849444 RicFlair said:
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As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
What bias is that?
You don't think that your desire to give him the benefit of the doubt and not string ANY of his history together as a trend is a bias unto itself?
Guy I didn’t say I have no biases. I just wanted to know which one. I don’t know why you’re so combative with me, we have differing feelings about Toney. It’s not a big deal.
And obviously he has a injury trend, I don’t think I’ve ever disputed that.
This seems to be the popular take with Toney. Could be untrue, guy could just be injured, but whatever works, sports fans.
It seems he came to training camp injured if my memory is correct his first 2 seasons with Giants… I may be wrong.
The red flag before the draft on Toney was his commitment to football
Was football his number 1 priority?
To me he has become a sunk cost now
Do we see him the second half of the season
So far 2 catches and 2 runs( awesome production)
like like every other NFL team has? We draft guys whom barely reach Roger Goodells belt buckle when being introduced.
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In comment 15849495 RicFlair said:
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In comment 15849482 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15849444 RicFlair said:
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As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
What bias is that?
You don't think that your desire to give him the benefit of the doubt and not string ANY of his history together as a trend is a bias unto itself?
Guy I didn’t say I have no biases. I just wanted to know which one. I don’t know why you’re so combative with me, we have differing feelings about Toney. It’s not a big deal.
And obviously he has a injury trend, I don’t think I’ve ever disputed that.
Well, I know that the topic of racial bias came up for you yesterday, and I wanted to be clear that I wasn't insinuating anything of the sort; I read your previous post (asking me what bias that might be) as you being ready to pounce if the bias in question was race-based, so I apologize if I came across as combative because of the tone that I assumed in your prior post.
As for his prior history being a trend, my point is that it goes beyond injuries, and that the repeated injuries are part of a larger issue, which also includes things like being a fucking dolt on social media (his tweet following the Ruggs incident last year was one of the most tone deaf social media moments I've seen from a Giants player) and not having cleats for minicamp last year. And then that cleats thing could make someone wonder about the legitimacy of Toney's reasons for skipping voluntary workouts this past offseason. Any one of those incidents, by itself, can be explained away. So can his injuries. I just don't see them as isolated incidents; I see the entirety as a reflection of Toney's persona.
I view all of those things as being connected. You seem to not see those incidents as connected in any way. I don't know you at all, so I can't even begin to guess how your personal experience my inform your opinion on Toney. I can tell share from my own background, I spent several years overseeing a fairly large team at a former job - one of my direct reports always burned through all of their PTO by Q3 and then had a multitude of excuses for why they still missed time even after they were out of PTO. Sure, it was unpaid at that point, but I still had to scramble to get that person's responsibilities covered multiple times, always on short notice. Over the course of almost three years, I think this employee must have had half a dozen grandparents pass away (kidding, but not entirely kidding).
Some people might be inclined to think, "oh, that's awful, and so unlucky."
And some others might be inclined to think, "I might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. This employee is full of shit."
I fall into the latter group. Is it fair to suggest that you fall into the former?
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I have. It's not nothing. It's REALLY painful, and you can't even lift your leg to walk. And once it's done, as we all know, it's very easy to tweak it again if you come back too soon.
And all high-twitch WRs seem to do it. Especially as rookies and early on in their careers. OBJ did. Ferraris spend more time in the shop than they spend on the road. The key to managing and hopefully avoiding hamstring injuries is EXTENSIVE warm-ups and stretching-out before the physical activity.
So at this point, as frustrating as it is, to me, it's an injury, and yes, Toney seems injury-prone in this respect. I was the one who brought up China Doll II.
But I'm not willing to say it's his attitude or he doesn't WANT to play. Especially since the coaches aren't tap-dancing about him, or saying things like "she's coming along" (Parcells on Terry Glenn). They would never throw him under the bus, but they're not dodging the question either.
I wasn't in love with Toney's character either. Getting caught with an assault rifle in his car was a red flag. Generally speaking, nothing good happens to NFL players who are gun-guys.
But none of any of this means Toney doesn't want to play football.. But he sure has had shit luck.
Nice post David. I remember a while back, when similar doubts about toughness and commitment were being said about perhaps the Giants best ever received, Amani Toomer.
He figured out how to stay healthy, hopefully Toney will. Lots of assumptions being made here about Toney s character.
Hmm, Toomer had an ACL not exactly the same thing.
He has shown that since day 1 - and it has gotten progressively worse.
He doesn’t want to be a serious NFL player. Fact.
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In comment 15849523 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15849495 RicFlair said:
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In comment 15849482 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15849444 RicFlair said:
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As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
What bias is that?
You don't think that your desire to give him the benefit of the doubt and not string ANY of his history together as a trend is a bias unto itself?
Guy I didn’t say I have no biases. I just wanted to know which one. I don’t know why you’re so combative with me, we have differing feelings about Toney. It’s not a big deal.
And obviously he has a injury trend, I don’t think I’ve ever disputed that.
Well, I know that the topic of racial bias came up for you yesterday, and I wanted to be clear that I wasn't insinuating anything of the sort; I read your previous post (asking me what bias that might be) as you being ready to pounce if the bias in question was race-based, so I apologize if I came across as combative because of the tone that I assumed in your prior post.
As for his prior history being a trend, my point is that it goes beyond injuries, and that the repeated injuries are part of a larger issue, which also includes things like being a fucking dolt on social media (his tweet following the Ruggs incident last year was one of the most tone deaf social media moments I've seen from a Giants player) and not having cleats for minicamp last year. And then that cleats thing could make someone wonder about the legitimacy of Toney's reasons for skipping voluntary workouts this past offseason. Any one of those incidents, by itself, can be explained away. So can his injuries. I just don't see them as isolated incidents; I see the entirety as a reflection of Toney's persona.
I view all of those things as being connected. You seem to not see those incidents as connected in any way. I don't know you at all, so I can't even begin to guess how your personal experience my inform your opinion on Toney. I can tell share from my own background, I spent several years overseeing a fairly large team at a former job - one of my direct reports always burned through all of their PTO by Q3 and then had a multitude of excuses for why they still missed time even after they were out of PTO. Sure, it was unpaid at that point, but I still had to scramble to get that person's responsibilities covered multiple times, always on short notice. Over the course of almost three years, I think this employee must have had half a dozen grandparents pass away (kidding, but not entirely kidding).
Some people might be inclined to think, "oh, that's awful, and so unlucky."
And some others might be inclined to think, "I might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. This employee is full of shit."
I fall into the latter group. Is it fair to suggest that you fall into the former?
I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
Toney is faking his injuries.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
It has been reported that the Giants felt he could have played at the end of last year
He had to be shamed into showing up to OTAs, then did little on the field once he finally showed up
The new Giants regime felt he could have played in the final preseason game
And now he has barely played through 5 games
How exactly has he earned any benefit of the doubt?
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I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
I only compared him to Robinson once and that was sarcasm.
For sure. Although maybe tweeting a hammy is worse?
Believe it or not, it seems like he wants to be out there.
That said, it is beyond frustrating that this guy cannot string together consecutive practices without tweaking something. Idk how he gets ready for the season, but something has to change if he wants to have an impactful career. Otherwise, he’ll be out of the league by 26
<Golladay raises his hand>
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In comment 15849588 RicFlair said:
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I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
I only compared him to Robinson once and that was sarcasm.
You're still sidestepping the main question, IMO. You see the non-injury-related issues with Toney as being completely separate from his injury history?
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In comment 15849599 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15849588 RicFlair said:
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I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
I only compared him to Robinson once and that was sarcasm.
You're still sidestepping the main question, IMO. You see the non-injury-related issues with Toney as being completely separate from his injury history?
The non injury related issues do not make me think he’s faking his injuries.
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In comment 15849612 RicFlair said:
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In comment 15849599 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15849588 RicFlair said:
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I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
I only compared him to Robinson once and that was sarcasm.
You're still sidestepping the main question, IMO. You see the non-injury-related issues with Toney as being completely separate from his injury history?
The non injury related issues do not make me think he’s faking his injuries.
Ok, I've been trying to be respectful.
You're fucking obtuse. Enjoy Toney. You deserve him.
Which is why I said that maybe the Giants feel being "injured" is better for his trade value, such as it is, than being a pain in the ass who refuses to play
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In comment 15849637 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15849612 RicFlair said:
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In comment 15849599 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15849588 RicFlair said:
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I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
I only compared him to Robinson once and that was sarcasm.
You're still sidestepping the main question, IMO. You see the non-injury-related issues with Toney as being completely separate from his injury history?
The non injury related issues do not make me think he’s faking his injuries.
Ok, I've been trying to be respectful.
You're fucking obtuse. Enjoy Toney. You deserve him.
Cool, insults because we disagree on a football player.
It’s just football dude.
And for the record, you made the Robinson comparison multiple times this morning alone, including a follow-up explanation that made it clear that your comparison was not made in jest.
I guess someone on this planet has to be a Toney Stan. Might as well be you.
And for the record, you made the Robinson comparison multiple times this morning alone, including a follow-up explanation that made it clear that your comparison was not made in jest.
I guess someone on this planet has to be a Toney Stan. Might as well be you.
What question am I not answering?
What follow up made that clear?
I stated pretty clear that I don’t think any giants player is faking injures. Clearly I would be a “Stan” for whatever player was getting these accusations.
But please, continue dropping insults at people with different football views than you.
He’d be helping us out if he just retired and pursued his music career though.
Does he work out in the offseason or just show up in camp?
I don't know why they do not IR him. It is obvious he won't be in football shape for a long time, maybe not even this year.
I mean anyone is better than someone who can't get on the field.
He is the worst first round pick the Giants ever made and that is saying something.
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It's the refusal to answer the question that gets right to the core of the issue.
And for the record, you made the Robinson comparison multiple times this morning alone, including a follow-up explanation that made it clear that your comparison was not made in jest.
I guess someone on this planet has to be a Toney Stan. Might as well be you.
What question am I not answering?
What follow up made that clear?
I stated pretty clear that I don’t think any giants player is faking injures. Clearly I would be a “Stan” for whatever player was getting these accusations.
But please, continue dropping insults at people with different football views than you.
In the wandale thread my comment was based on the comment I’m responding to. What he described sounded very similar to the Toney situation.
That does not indicate that my comments about Wandale faking injuries weren’t sarcasm.
Well I'm sure it's every fan base, but I agree. It's absurd the over the top armchair expert analyses and hatred for players... lol. If a player is on my team I root for them to succeed plain and simple. I may call them out for something I perceive but yeah a lot of the comments are ridiculous. And clearly a trigger for me, most particularly when the ire and nasty condescending comments turns toward posters with different opinions.
Toney is faking his injuries.
This is absurd even for you.
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a fan base that hates its own players the way this one does.
Well I'm sure it's every fan base, but I agree. It's absurd the over the top armchair expert analyses and hatred for players... lol. If a player is on my team I root for them to succeed plain and simple. I may call them out for something I perceive but yeah a lot of the comments are ridiculous. And clearly a trigger for me, most particularly when the ire and nasty condescending comments turns toward posters with different opinions.
Like it’s gotten way worse lately right?
Skill set still intriguing
Maybe grab a 6th
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In comment 15849714 Photoguy said:
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a fan base that hates its own players the way this one does.
Well I'm sure it's every fan base, but I agree. It's absurd the over the top armchair expert analyses and hatred for players... lol. If a player is on my team I root for them to succeed plain and simple. I may call them out for something I perceive but yeah a lot of the comments are ridiculous. And clearly a trigger for me, most particularly when the ire and nasty condescending comments turns toward posters with different opinions.
Like it’s gotten way worse lately right?
Could be just my perception but yeah I would definitely say a big yes.
Players?
I don't think that's true. I think the fanbase hates the extended stretch of awful football. I think the fanbase hates the previous GM (or most of the fanbase, there are still some pretty loyal DG fans even here on BBI). And I think the fanbase hates seeing a player who cares less about the team than the fans do.
yes! and the Yung Joka actually has four hamstrings as both his calf muscles identify as hamstrings.
- Issues with his shoes at mini camp, foot/calf injury
June 2021
- Doesn't show up at OTAs despite signing injury waiver
July 2021
- COVID
Aug 2021
- Missed 2+ weeks of training camp with "aggravated" injury
Sept 2021
- "Limited" in practice during Week 1, plays 5 snaps in opening game. Minimal contributions in first three games
Oct 2021:
-6 catches vs. New Orleans
-Breakout game vs. Dallas before being ejected. Also injured his ankle in that game, which he aggravated the following week.
-Missed Week 7, returned Week 8 but injured his thumb after catching 4 passes
Nov 2021:
-Limited in practice, one catch in Week 9
-7 catches Week 11
-Inactive Week 12 (oblique/quad)
Dec 2021:
-Inactive week 13 (oblique)
-Inactive week 14 (oblique)
-COVID (again)
-Inactive week 15
-After 4 catches in Week 16, misses practice all week 17 with shoulder injury
Jan 2022
-Inactive week 17 (shoulder)
-Inactive week 18
April 2022
-Skips first week of OTAs (attends house party)
May 2022
-Offseason knee surgery reported
July 2022
-PUP list (Knee)
Aug 2022
-Injured in practice, inactive for preseason opener
-Misses virtually all of training camp with knee/leg injuries
Sept 2022
-Limited action in 1st two games
-Inactive weeks 3-4
-Both hamstrings hurt, inactive week 5
Let this guy be on the field for one month without issue before talking about him again. If you can't play, it really doesn't matter if you're "electric" or whatever the hell you want to call him.
He focuses more on his musical career in the off-season, so his legs aren't ready for the rigors of playing WR in the pros. I really don't think this is a dodge. I think what the coaches say about him practicing hard, paying attention in class is true.
BUT, until he trains the right way to minimize these soft tissue injuries, he will be useful. They won't give up on him, because there is a lot of talent there. Untapped though it may be.
nope
Equation 1
(Kadarius Toney) + (Evan Neal) = (Micah Parsons)
Equation 2
(Kadarius Toney) + (Evan Neal) > (Micah Parsons)
Equation 3
(Kadarius Toney) + (Evan Neal) < (Micah Parsons)
Right now, looks like #3.
- Issues with his shoes at mini camp, foot/calf injury
June 2021
- Doesn't show up at OTAs despite signing injury waiver
July 2021
- COVID
Aug 2021
- Missed 2+ weeks of training camp with "aggravated" injury
Sept 2021
- "Limited" in practice during Week 1, plays 5 snaps in opening game. Minimal contributions in first three games
Oct 2021:
-6 catches vs. New Orleans
-Breakout game vs. Dallas before being ejected. Also injured his ankle in that game, which he aggravated the following week.
-Missed Week 7, returned Week 8 but injured his thumb after catching 4 passes
Nov 2021:
-Limited in practice, one catch in Week 9
-7 catches Week 11
-Inactive Week 12 (oblique/quad)
Dec 2021:
-Inactive week 13 (oblique)
-Inactive week 14 (oblique)
-COVID (again)
-Inactive week 15
-After 4 catches in Week 16, misses practice all week 17 with shoulder injury
Jan 2022
-Inactive week 17 (shoulder)
-Inactive week 18
April 2022
-Skips first week of OTAs (attends house party)
May 2022
-Offseason knee surgery reported
July 2022
-PUP list (Knee)
Aug 2022
-Injured in practice, inactive for preseason opener
-Misses virtually all of training camp with knee/leg injuries
Sept 2022
-Limited action in 1st two games
-Inactive weeks 3-4
-Both hamstrings hurt, inactive week 5
Let this guy be on the field for one month without issue before talking about him again. If you can't play, it really doesn't matter if you're "electric" or whatever the hell you want to call him.
What if your source for the text I put in bold above?
How can his style of play be the cause of his injuries at this point when he never actually plays? Maybe it's his style of not playing that causes the injuries?
Equation 1
(Kadarius Toney) + (Evan Neal) = (Micah Parsons)
Equation 2
(Kadarius Toney) + (Evan Neal) > (Micah Parsons)
Equation 3
(Kadarius Toney) + (Evan Neal) < (Micah Parsons)
Right now, looks like #3.
Take out Neal, put in Thibodeaux. If they only had one pick this past draft (and had taken Parsons the year before, as this exercise suggests), they'd have taken Neal. They only took Thibs ahead of Neal because they had two OTs on the board that they liked, but only one pass rusher.
It's Toney + Thibodeaux vs. Parsons.
Thibs is going to have to be really special to win that side by himself.
Quote:
Equation 1
(Kadarius Toney) + (Evan Neal) = (Micah Parsons)
Equation 2
(Kadarius Toney) + (Evan Neal) > (Micah Parsons)
Equation 3
(Kadarius Toney) + (Evan Neal) < (Micah Parsons)
Right now, looks like #3.
Take out Neal, put in Thibodeaux. If they only had one pick this past draft (and had taken Parsons the year before, as this exercise suggests), they'd have taken Neal. They only took Thibs ahead of Neal because they had two OTs on the board that they liked, but only one pass rusher.
It's Toney + Thibodeaux vs. Parsons.
Thibs is going to have to be really special to win that side by himself.
The Giants would have never gotten Parsons. The Cowboys wanted him all along and they knew we were not taking him. If we ever had any desire to take Parson the Cowboys never do that trade with the Eagles and take Parsons at their own pick. The fact that we had telegraphed Parson was off our board was why the Cowboys felt comfortable making that deal with Philly.
Thus, now we would have Davonta Smith and either Thibs or Neal depending on who we wanted more. Instead of Toeny, Thibs, and Neal.
Toney doesn't want to be a football player. I'm not sure what that has to do with Gettleman, or why you brought it up. Gettleman picked him, it is his wasted pick. There were reports that he didn't even want to trade down and wanted Parsons, and didn't want Toney.
Regardless of whether that is true, he's the GM and the pick is his.
Why do you have to keep bringing this up?
But because it’s a player you don’t like you’re automatically 100% right and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. You expose your hypocrisy almost daily.
Accusing a player of faking an injury with zero access to the medical records, knowledge of what’s going on behind the scenes, etc is such a stupid take I don’t even know where to begin.
Like you’ve said a million times, let it play out.
Toney is faking his injuries.
How do you know??? Have you seeing his stop and start play style? This guy having leg issues is completely believable.
Equation 1
(Kadarius Toney) + (Evan Neal) = (Micah Parsons)
Equation 2
(Kadarius Toney) + (Evan Neal) > (Micah Parsons)
Equation 3
(Kadarius Toney) + (Evan Neal) < (Micah Parsons)
Right now, looks like #3.
According to the asshats, DG/JJ were concerned about Micah Parsons' character issues and were hoping another team would draft him before the Giants picked. In hindsight, it looks like he was worth the risk.
Quote:
May 2021
- Issues with his shoes at mini camp, foot/calf injury
June 2021
- Doesn't show up at OTAs despite signing injury waiver
July 2021
- COVID
Aug 2021
- Missed 2+ weeks of training camp with "aggravated" injury
Sept 2021
- "Limited" in practice during Week 1, plays 5 snaps in opening game. Minimal contributions in first three games
Oct 2021:
-6 catches vs. New Orleans
-Breakout game vs. Dallas before being ejected. Also injured his ankle in that game, which he aggravated the following week.
-Missed Week 7, returned Week 8 but injured his thumb after catching 4 passes
Nov 2021:
-Limited in practice, one catch in Week 9
-7 catches Week 11
-Inactive Week 12 (oblique/quad)
Dec 2021:
-Inactive week 13 (oblique)
-Inactive week 14 (oblique)
-COVID (again)
-Inactive week 15
-After 4 catches in Week 16, misses practice all week 17 with shoulder injury
Jan 2022
-Inactive week 17 (shoulder)
-Inactive week 18
April 2022
-Skips first week of OTAs (attends house party)
May 2022
-Offseason knee surgery reported
July 2022
-PUP list (Knee)
Aug 2022
-Injured in practice, inactive for preseason opener
-Misses virtually all of training camp with knee/leg injuries
Sept 2022
-Limited action in 1st two games
-Inactive weeks 3-4
-Both hamstrings hurt, inactive week 5
Let this guy be on the field for one month without issue before talking about him again. If you can't play, it really doesn't matter if you're "electric" or whatever the hell you want to call him.
What if your source for the text I put in bold above?
Wes Steinberg tweeted Toney skipped OTA's to attend a house party.
Quote:
In comment 15849777 rsjem1979 said:
Quote:
May 2021
- Issues with his shoes at mini camp, foot/calf injury
June 2021
- Doesn't show up at OTAs despite signing injury waiver
July 2021
- COVID
Aug 2021
- Missed 2+ weeks of training camp with "aggravated" injury
Sept 2021
- "Limited" in practice during Week 1, plays 5 snaps in opening game. Minimal contributions in first three games
Oct 2021:
-6 catches vs. New Orleans
-Breakout game vs. Dallas before being ejected. Also injured his ankle in that game, which he aggravated the following week.
-Missed Week 7, returned Week 8 but injured his thumb after catching 4 passes
Nov 2021:
-Limited in practice, one catch in Week 9
-7 catches Week 11
-Inactive Week 12 (oblique/quad)
Dec 2021:
-Inactive week 13 (oblique)
-Inactive week 14 (oblique)
-COVID (again)
-Inactive week 15
-After 4 catches in Week 16, misses practice all week 17 with shoulder injury
Jan 2022
-Inactive week 17 (shoulder)
-Inactive week 18
April 2022
-Skips first week of OTAs (attends house party)
May 2022
-Offseason knee surgery reported
July 2022
-PUP list (Knee)
Aug 2022
-Injured in practice, inactive for preseason opener
-Misses virtually all of training camp with knee/leg injuries
Sept 2022
-Limited action in 1st two games
-Inactive weeks 3-4
-Both hamstrings hurt, inactive week 5
Let this guy be on the field for one month without issue before talking about him again. If you can't play, it really doesn't matter if you're "electric" or whatever the hell you want to call him.
What if your source for the text I put in bold above?
Wes Steinberg tweeted Toney skipped OTA's to attend a house party.
lol I hope that really is the source.
The smoke's been there the whole time. The Giants medical and training staff felt like Toney could play vs. the Jets and he said he couldn't. They felt he could play last year and he said he couldn't. They supplied him the proper footwear (millions of options) and he said he couldn't. In everyone's years of following NFL football does anyone ever remember a guy missing extended time due to not having the proper cleats?
What do you think the Giants med/training staff thinks of the notion Toney is faking it?
This is a big problem - he's stealing money. Anyone of us could do the same at our jobs and eventually, we'd get fired. Toney will too. Don't think Mara isn't aware of this.
Quote:
He never sounds disappointed he can't play and doesn't seem to care. It is always trading jabs with reporters. He will never be anything. Wasted pick.
The smoke's been there the whole time. The Giants medical and training staff felt like Toney could play vs. the Jets and he said he couldn't. They felt he could play last year and he said he couldn't. They supplied him the proper footwear (millions of options) and he said he couldn't. In everyone's years of following NFL football does anyone ever remember a guy missing extended time due to not having the proper cleats?
What do you think the Giants med/training staff thinks of the notion Toney is faking it?
This is a big problem - he's stealing money. Anyone of us could do the same at our jobs and eventually, we'd get fired. Toney will too. Don't think Mara isn't aware of this.
Define “extended time”
"extended time"?
Do we ignore that he was out there running some drills in socks?
And then we are going to get on him for being even-keeling in interviews?
Sheesh... imagine if, idk, a HOF QB on the Giants was always positive and even-keeled during pressers and interviews..even after bad games where he made mistakes.. sheesh that would be crazy!
He’d be helping us out if he just retired and pursued his music career though.
But with proper treatment and adjustments...
Jose Reyes became one of the best players in baseball and was extremely durable for half a decade once solved...
Soo... I'd rather they just find the right guys to deal with the problem and help him contribute on the field, wouldn't you?
Quote:
In comment 15849824 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
He never sounds disappointed he can't play and doesn't seem to care. It is always trading jabs with reporters. He will never be anything. Wasted pick.
The smoke's been there the whole time. The Giants medical and training staff felt like Toney could play vs. the Jets and he said he couldn't. They felt he could play last year and he said he couldn't. They supplied him the proper footwear (millions of options) and he said he couldn't. In everyone's years of following NFL football does anyone ever remember a guy missing extended time due to not having the proper cleats?
What do you think the Giants med/training staff thinks of the notion Toney is faking it?
This is a big problem - he's stealing money. Anyone of us could do the same at our jobs and eventually, we'd get fired. Toney will too. Don't think Mara isn't aware of this.
Define “extended time”
Missing even a single practice due to footwear would be more extended than I'd feel comfortable excusing.
Quote:
He had a chronic hamstring issue. It’s not new but he needs to just stop and rest for a long time. The poster above that mentioned Jose Reyes is exactly right. Another guy that goes through this constantly in soccer “star” Reyna (Claudio’s son). Guy is always hurt. Chronic hamstring issues.
He’d be helping us out if he just retired and pursued his music career though.
But with proper treatment and adjustments...
Jose Reyes became one of the best players in baseball and was extremely durable for half a decade once solved...
Soo... I'd rather they just find the right guys to deal with the problem and help him contribute on the field, wouldn't you?
I have a sneaking suspicion that if you found experts who could somehow solve the mystery of Toney's hamstrings, you'd suddenly find out that he also has a chronic injury in some other unrelated body part. Just a hunch.
But with proper treatment and adjustments...
Jose Reyes became one of the best players in baseball and was extremely durable for half a decade once solved...
Soo... I'd rather they just find the right guys to deal with the problem and help him contribute on the field, wouldn't you?
That is fair, except that Reyes struggled with a single injury, his hamstrings. Toney, on the other hand, has been out for a foot, an ankle, a shoulder, an oblique, a knee, and now, hamstrings. So it isn't the case where he needs someone to solve one issue.
Quote:
But with proper treatment and adjustments...
Jose Reyes became one of the best players in baseball and was extremely durable for half a decade once solved...
Soo... I'd rather they just find the right guys to deal with the problem and help him contribute on the field, wouldn't you?
That is fair, except that Reyes struggled with a single injury, his hamstrings. Toney, on the other hand, has been out for a foot, an ankle, a shoulder, an oblique, a knee, and now, hamstrings. So it isn't the case where he needs someone to solve one issue.
Oh, I forgot one, he was out for a calf too.
I don't think Toney is faking his injuries, but I do wonder if he's willing to play with pain. Every player in the NFL is "hurt" right now, but only a few are "injured".
I am not upset. Perhaps knowing the role that JJ played in the selection (and I have no proof it was his pick), contributed to his early dismissal. And if there was a great pick last year (like Parsons), we might win an extra game or two and we are stuck with JJ.
We can move on from him next year. Have to hope he can contribute this year. I doubt he will.
This is the point that I think Toney's few remaining defenders seem to miss. Toney is very unlikely to be faking his injuries in the most accurate sense of the word. His injuries themselves cannot be faked to such an extent that they would fool an NFL team doctor or training staff.
However, if you think NFL teams perform a diagnostic exam on every player every day, you're kidding yourself. The first, and most important, step in the process for a player to end up on the injured list is self-diagnosis. A player complains to trainers/doctors about some sort of pain or discomfort, it gets examined, and then diagnosis/prognosis/treatment follows. In this way, it's not possible for a player to trick the medical staff into diagnosing an injury that does not exist.
Here's the thing - on any given day, any active player almost definitely has enough bumps and bruises and scrapes, strains, and (minor) sprains that they are in some discomfort or outright pain. Not all of them will even alert the training staff for a lot of that discomfort. But if they did, I feel confident in saying that just about all of them would end up on the injury report for something. They avoid that by making their own decision to play through discomfort because they want to play, and they don't want some doctor or other medical professional telling them that they can't.
But some players will go to the med staff over every bump and bruise. Some do it because they genuinely don't realize how much baseline physical discomfort comes with the job description. Some do it to err on the side of caution (I would take no issue if Barkley was in constant conversation with members of the NYG medical team every single day last season because of his recovery from a serious injury). Some do it because they genuinely don't want to play through the discomfort at all.
That last group, they're not faking in the sense that their injuries are lies, per se. But their injuries might very well be of the sort severity that most other players would play through. And if that's the case, they're either doing it because they don't care enough about playing to make it worthwhile to play through discomfort, or just because they're wusses who have low pain tolerance. I find it really hard to believe that there are many NFL players who fall into that category, so I'm left categorizing just about all of that last group into the header of "football just isn't important enough to some players to get them to play through the same discomfort that their teammates do."
Quote:
He never sounds disappointed he can't play and doesn't seem to care. It is always trading jabs with reporters. He will never be anything. Wasted pick.
The smoke's been there the whole time. The Giants medical and training staff felt like Toney could play vs. the Jets and he said he couldn't. They felt he could play last year and he said he couldn't. They supplied him the proper footwear (millions of options) and he said he couldn't. In everyone's years of following NFL football does anyone ever remember a guy missing extended time due to not having the proper cleats?
What do you think the Giants med/training staff thinks of the notion Toney is faking it?
This is a big problem - he's stealing money. Anyone of us could do the same at our jobs and eventually, we'd get fired. Toney will too. Don't think Mara isn't aware of this.
HE DOESN'T CARE
He will end up with all the guaranteed money from that contract and not much else.
Quote:
I don't think Toney is faking his injuries, but I do wonder if he's willing to play with pain. Every player in the NFL is "hurt" right now, but only a few are "injured".
This is the point that I think Toney's few remaining defenders seem to miss. Toney is very unlikely to be faking his injuries in the most accurate sense of the word. His injuries themselves cannot be faked to such an extent that they would fool an NFL team doctor or training staff.
However, if you think NFL teams perform a diagnostic exam on every player every day, you're kidding yourself. The first, and most important, step in the process for a player to end up on the injured list is self-diagnosis. A player complains to trainers/doctors about some sort of pain or discomfort, it gets examined, and then diagnosis/prognosis/treatment follows. In this way, it's not possible for a player to trick the medical staff into diagnosing an injury that does not exist.
Here's the thing - on any given day, any active player almost definitely has enough bumps and bruises and scrapes, strains, and (minor) sprains that they are in some discomfort or outright pain. Not all of them will even alert the training staff for a lot of that discomfort. But if they did, I feel confident in saying that just about all of them would end up on the injury report for something. They avoid that by making their own decision to play through discomfort because they want to play, and they don't want some doctor or other medical professional telling them that they can't.
But some players will go to the med staff over every bump and bruise. Some do it because they genuinely don't realize how much baseline physical discomfort comes with the job description. Some do it to err on the side of caution (I would take no issue if Barkley was in constant conversation with members of the NYG medical team every single day last season because of his recovery from a serious injury). Some do it because they genuinely don't want to play through the discomfort at all.
That last group, they're not faking in the sense that their injuries are lies, per se. But their injuries might very well be of the sort severity that most other players would play through. And if that's the case, they're either doing it because they don't care enough about playing to make it worthwhile to play through discomfort, or just because they're wusses who have low pain tolerance. I find it really hard to believe that there are many NFL players who fall into that category, so I'm left categorizing just about all of that last group into the header of "football just isn't important enough to some players to get them to play through the same discomfort that their teammates do."
Pffft. Whatever. Hamstrings, something, something, Jose Reyes.
Lol.
Some people here just refuse to see things for what they actually are. It must be exhausting doing the mental gymnastics to continue with excuse after excuse.
If this coaching staff really is covering for him like this its pretty pathetic. As I said in another thread, I'm spoiled, I expect every coach to act like Tom Coughlin and thats not really fair...not every coach is a HOFer
Maybe these guys have their reasons for lying, but it's very weird to me.
What's his plan? being useless for 2 or 3 more years and never play another down? Getting caught in a lie puts his money at risk. Is he that afraid of playing football?
He may be putting in less than full effort to get healthy, or less than full effort to play football, but sans real evidence, I doubt he's faking it. Such notions are the result of non-stop Toney hate on the internet. Maybe his heart isn't in football, but it is still a long stretch from that to alleging he'll do anything to not play football.
Kadarius Toney Sep 27
@0fficialC2N
Like I Said This Shit krazy. You kan literally get hurt doing nothing.
@ACLrecoveryCLUB
·
Sep 26
MetLife Stadium turf strikes again…It needs to go!!! 🙏 out to Sterling Shepard.
He's telling the world.
twitter - ( New Window )
Quote:
Kadarius Toney Sep 27
@0fficialC2N
Like I Said This Shit krazy. You kan literally get hurt doing nothing.
@ACLrecoveryCLUB
·
Sep 26
MetLife Stadium turf strikes again…It needs to go!!! 🙏 out to Sterling Shepard.
He's telling the world. twitter - ( New Window )
LOL
How the f#ck would he even know what it’s like to even play on the MetLife field???
What's his plan? being useless for 2 or 3 more years and never play another down? Getting caught in a lie puts his money at risk. Is he that afraid of playing football?
He may be putting in less than full effort to get healthy, or less than full effort to play football, but sans real evidence, I doubt he's faking it. Such notions are the result of non-stop Toney hate on the internet. Maybe his heart isn't in football, but it is still a long stretch from that to alleging he'll do anything to not play football.
I’m don’t think he’s faking it. I just think his desire to play is extremely lacking and, he hasn’t proven otherwise.
No, its not just injuries with him. Multiple posters here have cued you in, its wild to me some people still think this is a case of someone with bad injury luck and nothing else going on.
Saying he’s a piece of shit or asshole is definitely over the top. Questioning his commitment and desire to play football are entirely accurate.
Remember, this regime challenged Toney early on. Word gets around on guys especially when scouting. Remember what Sy said.
He’s a non factor and will be gone soon enough. Why wait I don’t know.
Next why didn’t/don’t anyone of you arm chair athletes play for the Giants I mean it is so easy from all the shit talking …. A lot of you guys are hilarious
Coaches lying for him? Something tells me Saban and BB did not teach BD that is the way you do it. Good luck earning the players trust/respect doing that long term.
It's really unfortunate. With a healthy Toney and Wandale (playing to expectations) this O might be pretty good with our run game.
Wish itwas something like a cracked or bruised ribs. Something like that I think you can question. Hamstrings? IDK, especially at his position and how he plays.
Cookie Crumbs - ( New Window )
Like I said a few weeks ago, the second coming of Tim Carter. The only difference was Carter wanted to play. It’s pretty obvious this guy doesn’t. Adios.