Paul Schwartz
@NYPost_Schwartz
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1m
Brian Daboll said Kadarius Toney tweeted his other hamstring - the healthy one - during practice on Thursday. That is why the team left him home and he will miss another game.
As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
I have. It's not nothing. It's REALLY painful, and you can't even lift your leg to walk. And once it's done, as we all know, it's very easy to tweak it again if you come back too soon.
And all high-twitch WRs seem to do it. Especially as rookies and early on in their careers. OBJ did. Ferraris spend more time in the shop than they spend on the road. The key to managing and hopefully avoiding hamstring injuries is EXTENSIVE warm-ups and stretching-out before the physical activity.
I think the point is that for two years in a row he has blown off the Giants offseason conditioning program... and then comes to camp and instantly gets soft tissue injuries that keep him out of practice.
It is not unreasonable to think (in fact, it's probably likely) that he is not putting in the conditioning work to be a functional NFL player.
Whether he wants to play or not is besides the point. He doesn't want to put in the work to be able to play.
As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
What bias is that?
You don't think that your desire to give him the benefit of the doubt and not string ANY of his history together as a trend is a bias unto itself?
RE: RE: How many of you have actually pulled a hamstring?
I have. It's not nothing. It's REALLY painful, and you can't even lift your leg to walk. And once it's done, as we all know, it's very easy to tweak it again if you come back too soon.
And all high-twitch WRs seem to do it. Especially as rookies and early on in their careers. OBJ did. Ferraris spend more time in the shop than they spend on the road. The key to managing and hopefully avoiding hamstring injuries is EXTENSIVE warm-ups and stretching-out before the physical activity.
I think the point is that for two years in a row he has blown off the Giants offseason conditioning program... and then comes to camp and instantly gets soft tissue injuries that keep him out of practice.
It is not unreasonable to think (in fact, it's probably likely) that he is not putting in the conditioning work to be a functional NFL player.
Whether he wants to play or not is besides the point. He doesn't want to put in the work to be able to play.
At least that's what he's shown so far.
Yep, many of these great athletes come into the league not understanding what it takes to be a pro. Some figure it out, some don’t. Stating that Toney is trending towards the latter is fair
As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
What bias is that?
You don't think that your desire to give him the benefit of the doubt and not string ANY of his history together as a trend is a bias unto itself?
Guy I didn’t say I have no biases. I just wanted to know which one. I don’t know why you’re so combative with me, we have differing feelings about Toney. It’s not a big deal.
And obviously he has a injury trend, I don’t think I’ve ever disputed that.
It’s about his commitment to being the best football player possible
It seems he came to training camp injured if my memory is correct his first 2 seasons with Giants… I may be wrong.
The red flag before the draft on Toney was his commitment to football
Was football his number 1 priority?
To me he has become a sunk cost now
Do we see him the second half of the season
So far 2 catches and 2 runs( awesome production)
we draft a WR over 6 foot four with muscles and burner speed
like like every other NFL team has? We draft guys whom barely reach Roger Goodells belt buckle when being introduced.
As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
What bias is that?
You don't think that your desire to give him the benefit of the doubt and not string ANY of his history together as a trend is a bias unto itself?
Guy I didn’t say I have no biases. I just wanted to know which one. I don’t know why you’re so combative with me, we have differing feelings about Toney. It’s not a big deal.
And obviously he has a injury trend, I don’t think I’ve ever disputed that.
Well, I know that the topic of racial bias came up for you yesterday, and I wanted to be clear that I wasn't insinuating anything of the sort; I read your previous post (asking me what bias that might be) as you being ready to pounce if the bias in question was race-based, so I apologize if I came across as combative because of the tone that I assumed in your prior post.
As for his prior history being a trend, my point is that it goes beyond injuries, and that the repeated injuries are part of a larger issue, which also includes things like being a fucking dolt on social media (his tweet following the Ruggs incident last year was one of the most tone deaf social media moments I've seen from a Giants player) and not having cleats for minicamp last year. And then that cleats thing could make someone wonder about the legitimacy of Toney's reasons for skipping voluntary workouts this past offseason. Any one of those incidents, by itself, can be explained away. So can his injuries. I just don't see them as isolated incidents; I see the entirety as a reflection of Toney's persona.
I view all of those things as being connected. You seem to not see those incidents as connected in any way. I don't know you at all, so I can't even begin to guess how your personal experience my inform your opinion on Toney. I can tell share from my own background, I spent several years overseeing a fairly large team at a former job - one of my direct reports always burned through all of their PTO by Q3 and then had a multitude of excuses for why they still missed time even after they were out of PTO. Sure, it was unpaid at that point, but I still had to scramble to get that person's responsibilities covered multiple times, always on short notice. Over the course of almost three years, I think this employee must have had half a dozen grandparents pass away (kidding, but not entirely kidding).
Some people might be inclined to think, "oh, that's awful, and so unlucky."
And some others might be inclined to think, "I might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. This employee is full of shit."
I fall into the latter group. Is it fair to suggest that you fall into the former?
RE: RE: How many of you have actually pulled a hamstring?
I have. It's not nothing. It's REALLY painful, and you can't even lift your leg to walk. And once it's done, as we all know, it's very easy to tweak it again if you come back too soon.
And all high-twitch WRs seem to do it. Especially as rookies and early on in their careers. OBJ did. Ferraris spend more time in the shop than they spend on the road. The key to managing and hopefully avoiding hamstring injuries is EXTENSIVE warm-ups and stretching-out before the physical activity.
So at this point, as frustrating as it is, to me, it's an injury, and yes, Toney seems injury-prone in this respect. I was the one who brought up China Doll II.
But I'm not willing to say it's his attitude or he doesn't WANT to play. Especially since the coaches aren't tap-dancing about him, or saying things like "she's coming along" (Parcells on Terry Glenn). They would never throw him under the bus, but they're not dodging the question either.
I wasn't in love with Toney's character either. Getting caught with an assault rifle in his car was a red flag. Generally speaking, nothing good happens to NFL players who are gun-guys.
But none of any of this means Toney doesn't want to play football.. But he sure has had shit luck.
Nice post David. I remember a while back, when similar doubts about toughness and commitment were being said about perhaps the Giants best ever received, Amani Toomer.
He figured out how to stay healthy, hopefully Toney will. Lots of assumptions being made here about Toney s character.
Hmm, Toomer had an ACL not exactly the same thing.
we usually tend to agree on things. I’m confused as to how you think Toney’s absences can be anything other than the fact that he just doesn’t really have that much interest in football.
He has shown that since day 1 - and it has gotten progressively worse.
As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
What bias is that?
You don't think that your desire to give him the benefit of the doubt and not string ANY of his history together as a trend is a bias unto itself?
Guy I didn’t say I have no biases. I just wanted to know which one. I don’t know why you’re so combative with me, we have differing feelings about Toney. It’s not a big deal.
And obviously he has a injury trend, I don’t think I’ve ever disputed that.
Well, I know that the topic of racial bias came up for you yesterday, and I wanted to be clear that I wasn't insinuating anything of the sort; I read your previous post (asking me what bias that might be) as you being ready to pounce if the bias in question was race-based, so I apologize if I came across as combative because of the tone that I assumed in your prior post.
As for his prior history being a trend, my point is that it goes beyond injuries, and that the repeated injuries are part of a larger issue, which also includes things like being a fucking dolt on social media (his tweet following the Ruggs incident last year was one of the most tone deaf social media moments I've seen from a Giants player) and not having cleats for minicamp last year. And then that cleats thing could make someone wonder about the legitimacy of Toney's reasons for skipping voluntary workouts this past offseason. Any one of those incidents, by itself, can be explained away. So can his injuries. I just don't see them as isolated incidents; I see the entirety as a reflection of Toney's persona.
I view all of those things as being connected. You seem to not see those incidents as connected in any way. I don't know you at all, so I can't even begin to guess how your personal experience my inform your opinion on Toney. I can tell share from my own background, I spent several years overseeing a fairly large team at a former job - one of my direct reports always burned through all of their PTO by Q3 and then had a multitude of excuses for why they still missed time even after they were out of PTO. Sure, it was unpaid at that point, but I still had to scramble to get that person's responsibilities covered multiple times, always on short notice. Over the course of almost three years, I think this employee must have had half a dozen grandparents pass away (kidding, but not entirely kidding).
Some people might be inclined to think, "oh, that's awful, and so unlucky."
And some others might be inclined to think, "I might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. This employee is full of shit."
I fall into the latter group. Is it fair to suggest that you fall into the former?
I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
For one bad hammy puts the other in jeopardy. Perhaps he is not listening to his body and trying to rush back too soon.
Believe it or not, it seems like he wants to be out there.
That said, it is beyond frustrating that this guy cannot string together consecutive practices without tweaking something. Idk how he gets ready for the season, but something has to change if he wants to have an impactful career. Otherwise, he’ll be out of the league by 26
I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
I only compared him to Robinson once and that was sarcasm.
You're still sidestepping the main question, IMO. You see the non-injury-related issues with Toney as being completely separate from his injury history?
you could easily make the case football isn't that important to him, especially now with the guaranteed money owed. Giants are protecting him for now, but it's not going to last forever. Watch their actions, don't take words as gospel.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If he’s faking it
I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
I only compared him to Robinson once and that was sarcasm.
You're still sidestepping the main question, IMO. You see the non-injury-related issues with Toney as being completely separate from his injury history?
The non injury related issues do not make me think he’s faking his injuries.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: If he’s faking it
I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
I only compared him to Robinson once and that was sarcasm.
You're still sidestepping the main question, IMO. You see the non-injury-related issues with Toney as being completely separate from his injury history?
The non injury related issues do not make me think he’s faking his injuries.
Ok, I've been trying to be respectful.
You're fucking obtuse. Enjoy Toney. You deserve him.
you could easily make the case football isn't that important to him, especially now with the guaranteed money owed. Giants are protecting him for now, but it's not going to last forever. Watch their actions, don't take words as gospel.
Which is why I said that maybe the Giants feel being "injured" is better for his trade value, such as it is, than being a pain in the ass who refuses to play
I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
I only compared him to Robinson once and that was sarcasm.
You're still sidestepping the main question, IMO. You see the non-injury-related issues with Toney as being completely separate from his injury history?
The non injury related issues do not make me think he’s faking his injuries.
Ok, I've been trying to be respectful.
You're fucking obtuse. Enjoy Toney. You deserve him.
Cool, insults because we disagree on a football player.
It's the refusal to answer the question that gets right to the core of the issue.
And for the record, you made the Robinson comparison multiple times this morning alone, including a follow-up explanation that made it clear that your comparison was not made in jest.
I guess someone on this planet has to be a Toney Stan. Might as well be you.
It's the refusal to answer the question that gets right to the core of the issue.
And for the record, you made the Robinson comparison multiple times this morning alone, including a follow-up explanation that made it clear that your comparison was not made in jest.
I guess someone on this planet has to be a Toney Stan. Might as well be you.
What question am I not answering?
What follow up made that clear?
I stated pretty clear that I don’t think any giants player is faking injures. Clearly I would be a “Stan” for whatever player was getting these accusations.
But please, continue dropping insults at people with different football views than you.
He had a chronic hamstring issue. It’s not new but he needs to just stop and rest for a long time. The poster above that mentioned Jose Reyes is exactly right. Another guy that goes through this constantly in soccer “star” Reyna (Claudio’s son). Guy is always hurt. Chronic hamstring issues.
He’d be helping us out if he just retired and pursued his music career though.
was this guy in football shape when he came to camp?
It's the refusal to answer the question that gets right to the core of the issue.
And for the record, you made the Robinson comparison multiple times this morning alone, including a follow-up explanation that made it clear that your comparison was not made in jest.
I guess someone on this planet has to be a Toney Stan. Might as well be you.
What question am I not answering?
What follow up made that clear?
I stated pretty clear that I don’t think any giants player is faking injures. Clearly I would be a “Stan” for whatever player was getting these accusations.
But please, continue dropping insults at people with different football views than you.
In the wandale thread my comment was based on the comment I’m responding to. What he described sounded very similar to the Toney situation.
That does not indicate that my comments about Wandale faking injuries weren’t sarcasm.
a fan base that hates its own players the way this one does.
Well I'm sure it's every fan base, but I agree. It's absurd the over the top armchair expert analyses and hatred for players... lol. If a player is on my team I root for them to succeed plain and simple. I may call them out for something I perceive but yeah a lot of the comments are ridiculous. And clearly a trigger for me, most particularly when the ire and nasty condescending comments turns toward posters with different opinions.
a fan base that hates its own players the way this one does.
Well I'm sure it's every fan base, but I agree. It's absurd the over the top armchair expert analyses and hatred for players... lol. If a player is on my team I root for them to succeed plain and simple. I may call them out for something I perceive but yeah a lot of the comments are ridiculous. And clearly a trigger for me, most particularly when the ire and nasty condescending comments turns toward posters with different opinions.
a fan base that hates its own players the way this one does.
Well I'm sure it's every fan base, but I agree. It's absurd the over the top armchair expert analyses and hatred for players... lol. If a player is on my team I root for them to succeed plain and simple. I may call them out for something I perceive but yeah a lot of the comments are ridiculous. And clearly a trigger for me, most particularly when the ire and nasty condescending comments turns toward posters with different opinions.
Like it’s gotten way worse lately right?
Could be just my perception but yeah I would definitely say a big yes.
a fan base that hates its own players the way this one does.
Players?
I don't think that's true. I think the fanbase hates the extended stretch of awful football. I think the fanbase hates the previous GM (or most of the fanbase, there are still some pretty loyal DG fans even here on BBI). And I think the fanbase hates seeing a player who cares less about the team than the fans do.
May 2021
- Issues with his shoes at mini camp, foot/calf injury
June 2021
- Doesn't show up at OTAs despite signing injury waiver
July 2021
- COVID
Aug 2021
- Missed 2+ weeks of training camp with "aggravated" injury
Sept 2021
- "Limited" in practice during Week 1, plays 5 snaps in opening game. Minimal contributions in first three games
Oct 2021:
-6 catches vs. New Orleans
-Breakout game vs. Dallas before being ejected. Also injured his ankle in that game, which he aggravated the following week.
-Missed Week 7, returned Week 8 but injured his thumb after catching 4 passes
Nov 2021:
-Limited in practice, one catch in Week 9
-7 catches Week 11
-Inactive Week 12 (oblique/quad)
Dec 2021:
-Inactive week 13 (oblique)
-Inactive week 14 (oblique)
-COVID (again)
-Inactive week 15
-After 4 catches in Week 16, misses practice all week 17 with shoulder injury
Jan 2022
-Inactive week 17 (shoulder)
-Inactive week 18
April 2022
-Skips first week of OTAs (attends house party)
May 2022
-Offseason knee surgery reported
July 2022
-PUP list (Knee)
Aug 2022
-Injured in practice, inactive for preseason opener
-Misses virtually all of training camp with knee/leg injuries
Sept 2022
-Limited action in 1st two games
-Inactive weeks 3-4
-Both hamstrings hurt, inactive week 5
Let this guy be on the field for one month without issue before talking about him again. If you can't play, it really doesn't matter if you're "electric" or whatever the hell you want to call him.
Looking like the only good thing about last years 1st round pick was the fact we got Neal and Thibs out of this years draft. This team is going to have to draft 3-4 WRs next year.
Ha! His other hamstring wanted a participation trophy
Quote:
As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
What bias is that?
And all high-twitch WRs seem to do it. Especially as rookies and early on in their careers. OBJ did. Ferraris spend more time in the shop than they spend on the road. The key to managing and hopefully avoiding hamstring injuries is EXTENSIVE warm-ups and stretching-out before the physical activity.
I think the point is that for two years in a row he has blown off the Giants offseason conditioning program... and then comes to camp and instantly gets soft tissue injuries that keep him out of practice.
It is not unreasonable to think (in fact, it's probably likely) that he is not putting in the conditioning work to be a functional NFL player.
Whether he wants to play or not is besides the point. He doesn't want to put in the work to be able to play.
At least that's what he's shown so far.
Quote:
In comment 15849444 RicFlair said:
Quote:
As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
What bias is that?
You don't think that your desire to give him the benefit of the doubt and not string ANY of his history together as a trend is a bias unto itself?
Quote:
I have. It's not nothing. It's REALLY painful, and you can't even lift your leg to walk. And once it's done, as we all know, it's very easy to tweak it again if you come back too soon.
And all high-twitch WRs seem to do it. Especially as rookies and early on in their careers. OBJ did. Ferraris spend more time in the shop than they spend on the road. The key to managing and hopefully avoiding hamstring injuries is EXTENSIVE warm-ups and stretching-out before the physical activity.
I think the point is that for two years in a row he has blown off the Giants offseason conditioning program... and then comes to camp and instantly gets soft tissue injuries that keep him out of practice.
It is not unreasonable to think (in fact, it's probably likely) that he is not putting in the conditioning work to be a functional NFL player.
Whether he wants to play or not is besides the point. He doesn't want to put in the work to be able to play.
At least that's what he's shown so far.
Yep, many of these great athletes come into the league not understanding what it takes to be a pro. Some figure it out, some don’t. Stating that Toney is trending towards the latter is fair
Quote:
In comment 15849482 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15849444 RicFlair said:
Quote:
As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
What bias is that?
You don't think that your desire to give him the benefit of the doubt and not string ANY of his history together as a trend is a bias unto itself?
Guy I didn’t say I have no biases. I just wanted to know which one. I don’t know why you’re so combative with me, we have differing feelings about Toney. It’s not a big deal.
And obviously he has a injury trend, I don’t think I’ve ever disputed that.
This seems to be the popular take with Toney. Could be untrue, guy could just be injured, but whatever works, sports fans.
It seems he came to training camp injured if my memory is correct his first 2 seasons with Giants… I may be wrong.
The red flag before the draft on Toney was his commitment to football
Was football his number 1 priority?
To me he has become a sunk cost now
Do we see him the second half of the season
So far 2 catches and 2 runs( awesome production)
like like every other NFL team has? We draft guys whom barely reach Roger Goodells belt buckle when being introduced.
Quote:
In comment 15849495 RicFlair said:
Quote:
In comment 15849482 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15849444 RicFlair said:
Quote:
As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
What bias is that?
You don't think that your desire to give him the benefit of the doubt and not string ANY of his history together as a trend is a bias unto itself?
Guy I didn’t say I have no biases. I just wanted to know which one. I don’t know why you’re so combative with me, we have differing feelings about Toney. It’s not a big deal.
And obviously he has a injury trend, I don’t think I’ve ever disputed that.
Well, I know that the topic of racial bias came up for you yesterday, and I wanted to be clear that I wasn't insinuating anything of the sort; I read your previous post (asking me what bias that might be) as you being ready to pounce if the bias in question was race-based, so I apologize if I came across as combative because of the tone that I assumed in your prior post.
As for his prior history being a trend, my point is that it goes beyond injuries, and that the repeated injuries are part of a larger issue, which also includes things like being a fucking dolt on social media (his tweet following the Ruggs incident last year was one of the most tone deaf social media moments I've seen from a Giants player) and not having cleats for minicamp last year. And then that cleats thing could make someone wonder about the legitimacy of Toney's reasons for skipping voluntary workouts this past offseason. Any one of those incidents, by itself, can be explained away. So can his injuries. I just don't see them as isolated incidents; I see the entirety as a reflection of Toney's persona.
I view all of those things as being connected. You seem to not see those incidents as connected in any way. I don't know you at all, so I can't even begin to guess how your personal experience my inform your opinion on Toney. I can tell share from my own background, I spent several years overseeing a fairly large team at a former job - one of my direct reports always burned through all of their PTO by Q3 and then had a multitude of excuses for why they still missed time even after they were out of PTO. Sure, it was unpaid at that point, but I still had to scramble to get that person's responsibilities covered multiple times, always on short notice. Over the course of almost three years, I think this employee must have had half a dozen grandparents pass away (kidding, but not entirely kidding).
Some people might be inclined to think, "oh, that's awful, and so unlucky."
And some others might be inclined to think, "I might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. This employee is full of shit."
I fall into the latter group. Is it fair to suggest that you fall into the former?
Quote:
I have. It's not nothing. It's REALLY painful, and you can't even lift your leg to walk. And once it's done, as we all know, it's very easy to tweak it again if you come back too soon.
And all high-twitch WRs seem to do it. Especially as rookies and early on in their careers. OBJ did. Ferraris spend more time in the shop than they spend on the road. The key to managing and hopefully avoiding hamstring injuries is EXTENSIVE warm-ups and stretching-out before the physical activity.
So at this point, as frustrating as it is, to me, it's an injury, and yes, Toney seems injury-prone in this respect. I was the one who brought up China Doll II.
But I'm not willing to say it's his attitude or he doesn't WANT to play. Especially since the coaches aren't tap-dancing about him, or saying things like "she's coming along" (Parcells on Terry Glenn). They would never throw him under the bus, but they're not dodging the question either.
I wasn't in love with Toney's character either. Getting caught with an assault rifle in his car was a red flag. Generally speaking, nothing good happens to NFL players who are gun-guys.
But none of any of this means Toney doesn't want to play football.. But he sure has had shit luck.
Nice post David. I remember a while back, when similar doubts about toughness and commitment were being said about perhaps the Giants best ever received, Amani Toomer.
He figured out how to stay healthy, hopefully Toney will. Lots of assumptions being made here about Toney s character.
Hmm, Toomer had an ACL not exactly the same thing.
He has shown that since day 1 - and it has gotten progressively worse.
He doesn’t want to be a serious NFL player. Fact.
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In comment 15849495 RicFlair said:
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As has been said here many times, aren’t you guys upset with the coaching staff and medical staff for lying and covering up for him?
What choice would they have anyway? His contract is fully guaranteed (as all first round picks are), so they only way to get rid of the contract itself is via trade (or to just eat it in its entirety). The Giants owe more to the players' value (for a variety of purposes, including but not limited to trades) than they do to transparency with the fanbase.
If you're naïve enough to take any NFL coach at their word 100% of the time, that's on you. And you might be just as guilty of allowing your own bias to frame the issue as you're suggesting of others.
What bias is that?
You don't think that your desire to give him the benefit of the doubt and not string ANY of his history together as a trend is a bias unto itself?
Guy I didn’t say I have no biases. I just wanted to know which one. I don’t know why you’re so combative with me, we have differing feelings about Toney. It’s not a big deal.
And obviously he has a injury trend, I don’t think I’ve ever disputed that.
Well, I know that the topic of racial bias came up for you yesterday, and I wanted to be clear that I wasn't insinuating anything of the sort; I read your previous post (asking me what bias that might be) as you being ready to pounce if the bias in question was race-based, so I apologize if I came across as combative because of the tone that I assumed in your prior post.
As for his prior history being a trend, my point is that it goes beyond injuries, and that the repeated injuries are part of a larger issue, which also includes things like being a fucking dolt on social media (his tweet following the Ruggs incident last year was one of the most tone deaf social media moments I've seen from a Giants player) and not having cleats for minicamp last year. And then that cleats thing could make someone wonder about the legitimacy of Toney's reasons for skipping voluntary workouts this past offseason. Any one of those incidents, by itself, can be explained away. So can his injuries. I just don't see them as isolated incidents; I see the entirety as a reflection of Toney's persona.
I view all of those things as being connected. You seem to not see those incidents as connected in any way. I don't know you at all, so I can't even begin to guess how your personal experience my inform your opinion on Toney. I can tell share from my own background, I spent several years overseeing a fairly large team at a former job - one of my direct reports always burned through all of their PTO by Q3 and then had a multitude of excuses for why they still missed time even after they were out of PTO. Sure, it was unpaid at that point, but I still had to scramble to get that person's responsibilities covered multiple times, always on short notice. Over the course of almost three years, I think this employee must have had half a dozen grandparents pass away (kidding, but not entirely kidding).
Some people might be inclined to think, "oh, that's awful, and so unlucky."
And some others might be inclined to think, "I might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. This employee is full of shit."
I fall into the latter group. Is it fair to suggest that you fall into the former?
I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
Toney is faking his injuries.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
It has been reported that the Giants felt he could have played at the end of last year
He had to be shamed into showing up to OTAs, then did little on the field once he finally showed up
The new Giants regime felt he could have played in the final preseason game
And now he has barely played through 5 games
How exactly has he earned any benefit of the doubt?
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I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
I only compared him to Robinson once and that was sarcasm.
For sure. Although maybe tweeting a hammy is worse?
Believe it or not, it seems like he wants to be out there.
That said, it is beyond frustrating that this guy cannot string together consecutive practices without tweaking something. Idk how he gets ready for the season, but something has to change if he wants to have an impactful career. Otherwise, he’ll be out of the league by 26
<Golladay raises his hand>
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I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
I only compared him to Robinson once and that was sarcasm.
You're still sidestepping the main question, IMO. You see the non-injury-related issues with Toney as being completely separate from his injury history?
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In comment 15849588 RicFlair said:
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I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
I only compared him to Robinson once and that was sarcasm.
You're still sidestepping the main question, IMO. You see the non-injury-related issues with Toney as being completely separate from his injury history?
The non injury related issues do not make me think he’s faking his injuries.
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In comment 15849599 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15849588 RicFlair said:
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I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
I only compared him to Robinson once and that was sarcasm.
You're still sidestepping the main question, IMO. You see the non-injury-related issues with Toney as being completely separate from his injury history?
The non injury related issues do not make me think he’s faking his injuries.
Ok, I've been trying to be respectful.
You're fucking obtuse. Enjoy Toney. You deserve him.
Which is why I said that maybe the Giants feel being "injured" is better for his trade value, such as it is, than being a pain in the ass who refuses to play
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In comment 15849599 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15849588 RicFlair said:
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I simply fall into the “I don’t think any giants players are faking injuries” camp.
If it was JUST injuries with Toney, I think your POV would be more valid, as would your attempts to compare Robinson to Toney.
But it's not JUST injuries. Have you ever seen a professional athlete not have cleats that fit their feet?
I only compared him to Robinson once and that was sarcasm.
You're still sidestepping the main question, IMO. You see the non-injury-related issues with Toney as being completely separate from his injury history?
The non injury related issues do not make me think he’s faking his injuries.
Ok, I've been trying to be respectful.
You're fucking obtuse. Enjoy Toney. You deserve him.
Cool, insults because we disagree on a football player.
It’s just football dude.
And for the record, you made the Robinson comparison multiple times this morning alone, including a follow-up explanation that made it clear that your comparison was not made in jest.
I guess someone on this planet has to be a Toney Stan. Might as well be you.
And for the record, you made the Robinson comparison multiple times this morning alone, including a follow-up explanation that made it clear that your comparison was not made in jest.
I guess someone on this planet has to be a Toney Stan. Might as well be you.
What question am I not answering?
What follow up made that clear?
I stated pretty clear that I don’t think any giants player is faking injures. Clearly I would be a “Stan” for whatever player was getting these accusations.
But please, continue dropping insults at people with different football views than you.
He’d be helping us out if he just retired and pursued his music career though.
Does he work out in the offseason or just show up in camp?
I don't know why they do not IR him. It is obvious he won't be in football shape for a long time, maybe not even this year.
I mean anyone is better than someone who can't get on the field.
He is the worst first round pick the Giants ever made and that is saying something.
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It's the refusal to answer the question that gets right to the core of the issue.
And for the record, you made the Robinson comparison multiple times this morning alone, including a follow-up explanation that made it clear that your comparison was not made in jest.
I guess someone on this planet has to be a Toney Stan. Might as well be you.
What question am I not answering?
What follow up made that clear?
I stated pretty clear that I don’t think any giants player is faking injures. Clearly I would be a “Stan” for whatever player was getting these accusations.
But please, continue dropping insults at people with different football views than you.
In the wandale thread my comment was based on the comment I’m responding to. What he described sounded very similar to the Toney situation.
That does not indicate that my comments about Wandale faking injuries weren’t sarcasm.
Well I'm sure it's every fan base, but I agree. It's absurd the over the top armchair expert analyses and hatred for players... lol. If a player is on my team I root for them to succeed plain and simple. I may call them out for something I perceive but yeah a lot of the comments are ridiculous. And clearly a trigger for me, most particularly when the ire and nasty condescending comments turns toward posters with different opinions.
Toney is faking his injuries.
This is absurd even for you.
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a fan base that hates its own players the way this one does.
Well I'm sure it's every fan base, but I agree. It's absurd the over the top armchair expert analyses and hatred for players... lol. If a player is on my team I root for them to succeed plain and simple. I may call them out for something I perceive but yeah a lot of the comments are ridiculous. And clearly a trigger for me, most particularly when the ire and nasty condescending comments turns toward posters with different opinions.
Like it’s gotten way worse lately right?
Skill set still intriguing
Maybe grab a 6th
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a fan base that hates its own players the way this one does.
Well I'm sure it's every fan base, but I agree. It's absurd the over the top armchair expert analyses and hatred for players... lol. If a player is on my team I root for them to succeed plain and simple. I may call them out for something I perceive but yeah a lot of the comments are ridiculous. And clearly a trigger for me, most particularly when the ire and nasty condescending comments turns toward posters with different opinions.
Like it’s gotten way worse lately right?
Could be just my perception but yeah I would definitely say a big yes.
Players?
I don't think that's true. I think the fanbase hates the extended stretch of awful football. I think the fanbase hates the previous GM (or most of the fanbase, there are still some pretty loyal DG fans even here on BBI). And I think the fanbase hates seeing a player who cares less about the team than the fans do.
yes! and the Yung Joka actually has four hamstrings as both his calf muscles identify as hamstrings.
- Issues with his shoes at mini camp, foot/calf injury
June 2021
- Doesn't show up at OTAs despite signing injury waiver
July 2021
- COVID
Aug 2021
- Missed 2+ weeks of training camp with "aggravated" injury
Sept 2021
- "Limited" in practice during Week 1, plays 5 snaps in opening game. Minimal contributions in first three games
Oct 2021:
-6 catches vs. New Orleans
-Breakout game vs. Dallas before being ejected. Also injured his ankle in that game, which he aggravated the following week.
-Missed Week 7, returned Week 8 but injured his thumb after catching 4 passes
Nov 2021:
-Limited in practice, one catch in Week 9
-7 catches Week 11
-Inactive Week 12 (oblique/quad)
Dec 2021:
-Inactive week 13 (oblique)
-Inactive week 14 (oblique)
-COVID (again)
-Inactive week 15
-After 4 catches in Week 16, misses practice all week 17 with shoulder injury
Jan 2022
-Inactive week 17 (shoulder)
-Inactive week 18
April 2022
-Skips first week of OTAs (attends house party)
May 2022
-Offseason knee surgery reported
July 2022
-PUP list (Knee)
Aug 2022
-Injured in practice, inactive for preseason opener
-Misses virtually all of training camp with knee/leg injuries
Sept 2022
-Limited action in 1st two games
-Inactive weeks 3-4
-Both hamstrings hurt, inactive week 5
Let this guy be on the field for one month without issue before talking about him again. If you can't play, it really doesn't matter if you're "electric" or whatever the hell you want to call him.