...one major quibble is his statement, "Despite the Giants having a lot of receiving options who are dangerous with the ball in their hands, and scheming them ways to get run with the ball in space, the Giants are only 20th in yards after the catch and 19th in YAC per completion."
Who, pray tell, are these teeming receiving options? Dangerous with the ball in their hands, I'll grant. But the danger is that they won't make any extra yardage or will, once the ball is in their hands, immediately drop it.
I’ve said for a while that Getty’s “quarterback hell” comment is ironic because it’s exactly where he landed the Giants. Jones is not *the guy*. Good guy. Tough guy. Yes! Not *the* guy.
The record so far is terrific and Jones has been a lot of fun to watch on Sunday. The Giants are playing meaningful football for the first time in a decade. These coaches look legit. But this is a big test for Schoen. Signing Jones and especially Barkley look like big mistakes to me. In fact it seems like exactly what the Titans did with Tennehill and King Henry. And as good as Jones and Barkley have been, I think you could argue that Tennahil and Henry had been better. Having said that, I could see signing Jones for a two year deal, I’m not sure there’s anything better in the draft or UFA. I would also like to see Jones play with a legit WR1 who can make plays. He’s really never had one and that does matter in evaluation.
Players that don’t work out is only as damaging as the contracts. Can the team get out of a contract fairly easy? The Giants can retain Jones and Barkley while still providing themselves an out.
Barkley has injury history that will be taken into consideration. Jones has had major consistency issues that won’t be ignored when it is time to make a decision.
Judge the contracts
these are the points i have been making, even though
Players that don’t work out is only as damaging as the contracts. Can the team get out of a contract fairly easy? The Giants can retain Jones and Barkley while still providing themselves an out.
Barkley has injury history that will be taken into consideration. Jones has had major consistency issues that won’t be ignored when it is time to make a decision.
"Despite the Giants having a lot of receiving options who are dangerous with the ball in their hands, and scheming them ways to get run with the ball in space," What team is this guy watching? Nobody would confuse the WR's that get trotted out there every week as a dangerous group. He lost me after that statement.
"Despite the Giants having a lot of receiving options who are dangerous with the ball in their hands, and scheming them ways to get run with the ball in space," What team is this guy watching? Nobody would confuse the WR's that get trotted out there every week as a dangerous group. He lost me after that statement.
whether he is correct about that statement or not, it doesn't affect his view that after watching every Jones throw, he found too many throws that were not placed well. Seems like you are looking for statements to dismiss a point of view you don't agree with.
He is looking at qb play in a vacuum. He is not assessing OL play (very bad pass pro at first but has gotten better) and incompetent WR play. He is also not looking at scheme. These are extremely important factors to consider.
My biggest issue with the article is he talks about Allen or Mahomes as guys that the whole league wants after seeing them in the playoffs last year. Well, duh. No one is making the argument that DJ is better than those two. But it’s not a fair basis for comparison. There aren’t more than a handful of QBs like that out there.
...one major quibble is his statement, "Despite the Giants having a lot of receiving options who are dangerous with the ball in their hands, and scheming them ways to get run with the ball in space, the Giants are only 20th in yards after the catch and 19th in YAC per completion."
Who, pray tell, are these teeming receiving options? Dangerous with the ball in their hands, I'll grant. But the danger is that they won't make any extra yardage or will, once the ball is in their hands, immediately drop it.
he's not saying that catch the ball -- he's saying that can run, and are dangerous with the ball after the catch
I think there are at least 4: Barkley, Robinson, Bellinger, Slayton, (used to be Shep) that can catch and then run with the ball and get YAC. James and Sims can run with the ball after the catch -- they are just not as consistent as the former(s). So his statement is a fair statement imo.
of the good and bad about Jones has been document in articles like this and film review from many people, including Skinner.
Jones has led some great fourth quarter drives with subpar WRs and TEs who have difficult separating. He's been a lot more than a "game manager" in those victories.
But his ball placement is still poor on too many throws, the offense is geared to maximize his strengths (running) and minimize his weaknesses, and he's still not seeing too many open receivers.
Jones has nine more games to convince the Giants to at least use the FT on him. But unless he totally collapses, many teams will likely be more than willing to sign him to a lucrative long-term deal. The Giants would then have to either use the FT on him or start over. Whatever they do, Schoen, Daboll, and Kafka have to get that decision right.
All in all his comments are not inconsistent with what I see
look at the Seattle game -- they took away the roll out option from Jones, and played the run thus limiting his play fake ability -- He did not look good at all without those parts of his game.
"Despite the Giants having a lot of receiving options who are dangerous with the ball in their hands, and scheming them ways to get run with the ball in space......"
of the good and bad about Jones has been document in articles like this and film review from many people, including Skinner.
Jones has led some great fourth quarter drives with subpar WRs and TEs who have difficult separating. He's been a lot more than a "game manager" in those victories.
But his ball placement is still poor on too many throws, the offense is geared to maximize his strengths (running) and minimize his weaknesses, and he's still not seeing too many open receivers.
Jones has nine more games to convince the Giants to at least use the FT on him. But unless he totally collapses, many teams will likely be more than willing to sign him to a lucrative long-term deal. The Giants would then have to either use the FT on him or start over. Whatever they do, Schoen, Daboll, and Kafka have to get that decision right.
Every time I read comments about Jones’ ball placement, I think about Eli. Not the playoff caliber Eli who could make almost every throw when it counted. I’m thinking of the regular season Eli who could throw the ball above a receiver’s head and hang him out to dry. Final judgement on Jones is if he can get the team to the playoffs, and how far he can go.
read his twitter bio. He is a generic fan, not an NFL writer
This is known as the credentials fallacy. He watched every Jones play. Attack his argument, not his background.
There is no point in reading his argument because he has no background and no credentials. He is a fan, not someone with detailed football acumen and years covering the league
If he had written that Jones has been awesome and should be signed to a longterm big money contract, it would carry the same weight - zero
Its a blog post from a fan who has zero credentials
...one major quibble is his statement, "Despite the Giants having a lot of receiving options who are dangerous with the ball in their hands, and scheming them ways to get run with the ball in space, the Giants are only 20th in yards after the catch and 19th in YAC per completion."
Who, pray tell, are these teeming receiving options? Dangerous with the ball in their hands, I'll grant. But the danger is that they won't make any extra yardage or will, once the ball is in their hands, immediately drop it.
Agreed. In theory, before camp started, you can say you think toney and wandale would be excellent YAC contributors. But when the bullets flies, nope. Toney didn’t seem interested in suiting up, wandale shows that he can get open but no YAC at all to start.
Jones would have been better served if he was 2nd round pick
He would have less pressure on him, he could have sat for a year behind Eli and learned how to be an NFL QB, and the Giants probably could have extended him for a reasonable contract already.
I am waiting until the season is over to make up my mind (for whatever its worth, i.e. not much) but he was always a developmental prospect, and I think throwing him in as a starter 3 games into his career significantly delayed his development.
He picked up a lot of bad habits in that first year that have been hard to shake. It would think it's due trauma playing behind the worst OL in football his first 3 years, plus not having any reliable WRs.
He's definitely improving in some areas (not giving up on first read; short and intermediate pass accuracy) but the issues are still there.
RE: All in all his comments are not inconsistent with what I see
look at the Seattle game -- they took away the roll out option from Jones, and played the run thus limiting his play fake ability -- He did not look good at all without those parts of his game.
If I was a DC, this would be exactly what I would do
If you know WRs options are so-so to be very generous, make them beat u consistently
It’s obvious we need at least 2 more wr1/2 level receivers.
Fact is, if draft lined up correctly, I would draft 3. Two in first 3 rds and a flyer on one in 5/6 area.
of the good and bad about Jones has been document in articles like this and film review from many people, including Skinner.
Jones has led some great fourth quarter drives with subpar WRs and TEs who have difficult separating. He's been a lot more than a "game manager" in those victories.
But his ball placement is still poor on too many throws, the offense is geared to maximize his strengths (running) and minimize his weaknesses, and he's still not seeing too many open receivers.
Jones has nine more games to convince the Giants to at least use the FT on him. But unless he totally collapses, many teams will likely be more than willing to sign him to a lucrative long-term deal. The Giants would then have to either use the FT on him or start over. Whatever they do, Schoen, Daboll, and Kafka have to get that decision right.
Every time I read comments about Jones’ ball placement, I think about Eli. Not the playoff caliber Eli who could make almost every throw when it counted. I’m thinking of the regular season Eli who could throw the ball above a receiver’s head and hang him out to dry. Final judgement on Jones is if he can get the team to the playoffs, and how far he can go.
Except Eli had a true cannon arm and the best deep ball touch of any QB in the NFL since Marino.
If they decide to keep him and it is not with the tag then the contract is the important thing.
I think it can still go a few different ways. That's why the best course of action is to be patient and let the season play out imv. It will be much clearer then what needs to be done.
I think it can still go a few different ways. That's why the best course of action is to be patient and let the season play out imv. It will be much clearer then what needs to be done.
Do you think there is a chance the Giants cut or extend Jones before the season is over?
of $$$ and talent), the Tyrod becomes the guy and they will likely try to move up in the draft which will cost a lot (which sucks because we need help in other areas too).
RE: If they aren't convinced on Jones (and convinced is a combination
of $$$ and talent), the Tyrod becomes the guy and they will likely try to move up in the draft which will cost a lot (which sucks because we need help in other areas too).
I want to add I don't consider this a binary yes/no decision. Its the intersection of what they think of Jones/what else is realistically available to build a future on/how much Jones wants. For example a bad scenario is they let Jones go, start Tyrod, but still don't get the "future QB" on the roster (either via draft or trade). Then we have continued mediocre to poor QB play without a plan for the future.
RE: If they aren't convinced on Jones (and convinced is a combination
of $$$ and talent), the Tyrod becomes the guy and they will likely try to move up in the draft which will cost a lot (which sucks because we need help in other areas too).
Conversely, they'll save 10s of millions in cap space that can be invested in retaining or getting good players.
RE: All in all his comments are not inconsistent with what I see
look at the Seattle game -- they took away the roll out option from Jones, and played the run thus limiting his play fake ability -- He did not look good at all without those parts of his game.
This is the question. If other teams can limit Jones as Seattle did, can he ajust and still lead the team to victories. The rest of the season should give us the answer.
I think the Giants were always grading Jones on a curve. They know the pass protection isn't very good and the WRs aren't dangerous.
I'm sure there are a list of the things they realize they can't learn about a QB this year, and will take that into consideration.
The big question is how much are the Giants willing to bet that if they improve the pass protection and upgrade WR, Jones won't be scraping the barrel in pass productivity.
I'd say the Giants are willing to give Jones another year with better guns, and see if he's dangerous.
IMO I think you have to factor in what Jones will cost
If Jones will sign a 3 year 15M contact. 45M total. Even if it's all guaranteed does that give the Giants a competitive advantage? Is that an extra 25M to use for other positions based on starting QB contracts? I agree with most of that article and think Jones is a middle of the pack QB. Is there a path to the Super Bowl with a middle of the pack QB that costs about a 3rd of what other teams are paying their QBs? Or am I way off base?
RE: RE: If they aren't convinced on Jones (and convinced is a combination
of $$$ and talent), the Tyrod becomes the guy and they will likely try to move up in the draft which will cost a lot (which sucks because we need help in other areas too).
Conversely, they'll save 10s of millions in cap space that can be invested in retaining or getting good players.
What good players are going to sign with a team that has no long-term quarterback in place?
he's not saying that catch the ball -- he's saying that can run, and are dangerous with the ball after the catch
I think there are at least 4: Barkley, Robinson, Bellinger, Slayton, (used to be Shep) that can catch and then run with the ball and get YAC. James and Sims can run with the ball after the catch -- they are just not as consistent as the former(s). So his statement is a fair statement imo.
You are correct in your interpretation of the author's intent, but I'm not sure I agree with your list of "dangerous" YAC receivers at all. Barkley is certainly dangerous in space. Robinson looks promising in that regard as well. Bellinger also has some potential, at least based on his athleticism. James maybe as well, though his history prior to the Giants is pretty limited.
Slayton has averaged 3.2 YAC over his career, and I'm not sure what in Sills (I'm assuming you meant Sills and not Sims?) limited history and incredibly mediocre RAS score suggests he has any untapped YAC potential. Shepard has nearly identical YAC to Slayton over the course of his career as well, though it does seem like his YAC average would have benefitted from a lot of the horizontal routes we employ.
I could maybe see making that statement prior to the season when we thought Toney, Robinson, Saquon, and Shepard would be the major focus of our passing attack, but we have all seen how the season has played out. Of those 4 players, only Saquon hasn't missed significant time. So it really is a head scratcher.
RE: RE: RE: If they aren't convinced on Jones (and convinced is a combination
of $$$ and talent), the Tyrod becomes the guy and they will likely try to move up in the draft which will cost a lot (which sucks because we need help in other areas too).
Conversely, they'll save 10s of millions in cap space that can be invested in retaining or getting good players.
What good players are going to sign with a team that has no long-term quarterback in place?
The ones who want to make good money and play for an excellent head coach who trust the GM will make a good a decision at QB.
other than the already mocked comment on dangerous receivers. Our best receiver is a guy we almost cut before the season started and he took a paycut to vet minimum.
DJ is halfway between "a" guy and "the" guy. And he probably always will be. How close he is to "the" guy depends on how many of them you think there are in the league. I would say 5 to 10 at any give time.
People who think we have a shot of getting DJ on a 2 year deal (unless it is 2 years $70MM guaranteed) are kidding themselves. Given cap inflation, previous contracts, and the paucity of "the" guy in the NFL, he is going to get paid at least 4/100 and probably more like 5/150. That is if the year goes as it has.
I would suggest the number of "bad throws" if it is a rate of 25 per 200, is not a problem. Even Brady or Rogers are probably 10 to 15 per 200. Almost everybody else good is in that 25 or even higher range. That is just my guess, no research. Don't know what the stats across the league say.
Bottom line is that it is impossible for anyone not on the coaching staff to have a meaningful opinion. We don't know how much tailoring they are doing. We don't know if he is missing reads or if he is executing what they want. Maybe most important, which seems not to get discussed much, we don't know if some of the problems we think we see are correctable with more time in the offense. Daboll and Kafka know the answers to all those questions (or at least the first two). I am OK if they let him go and he signs elsewhere for a middling deal. I am OK if they sign him for 5/200 with a good structure, because they know 1,000% more than me or anyone else on this board. But I have to admit I like him and hope we keep him.
RE: RE: RE: RE: If they aren't convinced on Jones (and convinced is a combination
of $$$ and talent), the Tyrod becomes the guy and they will likely try to move up in the draft which will cost a lot (which sucks because we need help in other areas too).
Conversely, they'll save 10s of millions in cap space that can be invested in retaining or getting good players.
What good players are going to sign with a team that has no long-term quarterback in place?
The ones who want to make good money and play for an excellent head coach who trust the GM will make a good a decision at QB.
Players have a very short shelf life in the NFL, they're not going to wait around 4 years so that the Giants can figure out quarterback. Especially when they have many other teams to sign with
I think the Giants were always grading Jones on a curve. They know the pass protection isn't very good and the WRs aren't dangerous.
I'm sure there are a list of the things they realize they can't learn about a QB this year, and will take that into consideration.
The big question is how much are the Giants willing to bet that if they improve the pass protection and upgrade WR, Jones won't be scraping the barrel in pass productivity.
I'd say the Giants are willing to give Jones another year with better guns, and see if he's dangerous.
Quote:
This is the question. If other teams can limit Jones as Seattle did, can he ajust and still lead the team to victories. The rest of the season should give us the answer.
I have maintained for at least the last two years that I think Jones' ceiling is middle of the road NFL QB. At times this season, he has played much better than that, but I don't think he'll ever consistently be a Top 10 kind of guy. I think he'll tease with his arm and legs from time to time, but mostly play mediocre to slightly above average. I'm generally ok moving on, but the issue is I'm not sure there are better options available to the Giants this season.
Schoen and Daboll are in a tough spot. If they cut Jones loose, go with Tyrod next year, and the team takes a step back (which I think is very likely), how much patience will Mara/Tisch have? They'd probably gain more leeway if they draft a rookie QB, but I don't know that we have the assets to trade up to get a Young/Stroud/Levis (if you believe they have the potential to be Franchise guys. I'm not personally sold myself).
On the other hand, it seems like giving Jones a long-term, big money contract is foolish. Ideally, they'd be able to resign him to a shorter (2-4 year), team friendly contract that they can easily move on from financially if they acquire a decent prospect in the next few years, but it really just feels like treading water.
I don't envy their position. Thankfully, I trust them to make the right one. QB Hell indeed.
"Despite the Giants having a lot of receiving options who are dangerous with the ball in their hands, and scheming them ways to get run with the ball in space," What team is this guy watching? Nobody would confuse the WR's that get trotted out there every week as a dangerous group. He lost me after that statement.
whether he is correct about that statement or not, it doesn't affect his view that after watching every Jones throw, he found too many throws that were not placed well. Seems like you are looking for statements to dismiss a point of view you don't agree with.
Uh, it's foundational to one of his arguments that Jones doesn't pass for a lot of yards. Taking exception to an erroneous point has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with the rest of the observations. Methinks you are the one with the dismissal problem.
read his twitter bio. He is a generic fan, not an NFL writer
Lawerence Tynes and Chris Bisignano, who are connected to the team, both have had more than a couple of private sessions with Daboll, both said they get the feeling he really likes Jones… a lot!
You can dismiss them as “company “ guys, you d be wrong, but that s ok.
Me, I m all in on this season, I ve no need to know right now if he ll be back next season.
Much more fun than trying to point out on a daily basis your perceived short comings of Jones
he's not saying that catch the ball -- he's saying that can run, and are dangerous with the ball after the catch
I think there are at least 4: Barkley, Robinson, Bellinger, Slayton, (used to be Shep) that can catch and then run with the ball and get YAC. James and Sims can run with the ball after the catch -- they are just not as consistent as the former(s). So his statement is a fair statement imo.
You are correct in your interpretation of the author's intent, but I'm not sure I agree with your list of "dangerous" YAC receivers at all. Barkley is certainly dangerous in space. Robinson looks promising in that regard as well. Bellinger also has some potential, at least based on his athleticism. James maybe as well, though his history prior to the Giants is pretty limited.
I could maybe see making that statement prior to the season when we thought Toney, Robinson, Saquon, and Shepard would be the major focus of our passing attack, but we have all seen how the season has played out. Of those 4 players, only Saquon hasn't missed significant time. So it really is a head scratcher.
Reading is fundamental. The author used the word "teeming." It is obvious that the Giants are hardly "teeming" with dangerous, after-the-catch receivers.
Reading is fundamental. The author used the word "teeming." It is obvious that the Giants are hardly "teeming" with dangerous, after-the-catch receivers.
Not exactly sure why this is directed at me. It appears we are in agreement here.
read his twitter bio. He is a generic fan, not an NFL writer
Lawerence Tynes and Chris Bisignano, who are connected to the team, both have had more than a couple of private sessions with Daboll, both said they get the feeling he really likes Jones… a lot!
You can dismiss them as “company “ guys, you d be wrong, but that s ok.
Me, I m all in on this season, I ve no need to know right now if he ll be back next season.
Much more fun than trying to point out on a daily basis your perceived short comings of Jones
What would you pay Jones? You never seem to address this. Franchise tag?
You said a couple of weeks ago that there is no drop off from Dak to Cooper Rush. That is the exact scenario a lot on BBI want to avoid.
RE: these are the points i have been making, even though
Jones' accuracy and ball placement are still not good.
He has improved his pocket awareness and he is running with better purpose.
But it still seems to me that unless he rushes for 75 yards a week, he's not a QB a great team builds around.
Are you kidding? Accuracy and ball placement are his strengths. It seems to me that his weakness is decision making… or at least the speed with which he makes decisions, but he has shown some improvement there.
RE: RE: these are the points i have been making, even though
Jones' accuracy and ball placement are still not good.
He has improved his pocket awareness and he is running with better purpose.
But it still seems to me that unless he rushes for 75 yards a week, he's not a QB a great team builds around.
Are you kidding? Accuracy and ball placement are his strengths. It seems to me that his weakness is decision making… or at least the speed with which he makes decisions, but he has shown some improvement there.
This has been Producer s take for a while. I agree with you about his accuracy as do many NFL people.
read his twitter bio. He is a generic fan, not an NFL writer
Lawerence Tynes and Chris Bisignano, who are connected to the team, both have had more than a couple of private sessions with Daboll, both said they get the feeling he really likes Jones… a lot!
You can dismiss them as “company “ guys, you d be wrong, but that s ok.
Me, I m all in on this season, I ve no need to know right now if he ll be back next season.
Much more fun than trying to point out on a daily basis your perceived short comings of Jones
What would you pay Jones? You never seem to address this. Franchise tag?
You said a couple of weeks ago that there is no drop off from Dak to Cooper Rush. That is the exact scenario a lot on BBI want to avoid.
Sean I ve conceded the point that economics will be part of the decision. Are you really interested in my take on what they should pay him.
I have no idea, I m not qualified to even offer an opinion about that. I trust Schoen will have a price in mind if wants to keep Jones.
read his twitter bio. He is a generic fan, not an NFL writer
Lawerence Tynes and Chris Bisignano, who are connected to the team, both have had more than a couple of private sessions with Daboll, both said they get the feeling he really likes Jones… a lot!
You can dismiss them as “company “ guys, you d be wrong, but that s ok.
Me, I m all in on this season, I ve no need to know right now if he ll be back next season.
Much more fun than trying to point out on a daily basis your perceived short comings of Jones
Jones' accuracy and ball placement are still not good.
He has improved his pocket awareness and he is running with better purpose.
But it still seems to me that unless he rushes for 75 yards a week, he's not a QB a great team builds around.
Are you kidding? Accuracy and ball placement are his strengths. It seems to me that his weakness is decision making… or at least the speed with which he makes decisions, but he has shown some improvement there.
I am not kidding. Jones has some nice qualities but accuracy and ball placement are not among them. His comp pct is consistently bottom third of the league. And ball placement is often suspect. We have lost games due to Jones throwing to the wrong side.
"Despite the Giants having a lot of receiving options who are dangerous with the ball in their hands, and scheming them ways to get run with the ball in space, the Giants are only 20th in yards after the catch and 19th in YAC per completion."
Richie James, David Sills and Marcus Johnson really got a fanbase here.
4/100 or 5/150 don't really mean much without the guaranteed money
called out. 4/100 with 50 guaranteed? 5/150 with 75 guaranteed? That seems the max I would want. But Schoen and Daboll are betting their reputations and careers on those numbers and they seem pretty sharp when it comes to QBs. So if that's their choice I'll hope they're correct.
RE: RE: RE: these are the points i have been making, even though
Jones' accuracy and ball placement are still not good.
He has improved his pocket awareness and he is running with better purpose.
But it still seems to me that unless he rushes for 75 yards a week, he's not a QB a great team builds around.
Are you kidding? Accuracy and ball placement are his strengths. It seems to me that his weakness is decision making… or at least the speed with which he makes decisions, but he has shown some improvement there.
I am not kidding. Jones has some nice qualities but accuracy and ball placement are not among them. His comp pct is consistently bottom third of the league. And ball placement is often suspect. We have lost games due to Jones throwing to the wrong side.
You must be watching a different player than I am.
RE: IMO I think you have to factor in what Jones will cost
If Jones will sign a 3 year 15M contact. 45M total. Even if it's all guaranteed does that give the Giants a competitive advantage? Is that an extra 25M to use for other positions based on starting QB contracts? I agree with most of that article and think Jones is a middle of the pack QB. Is there a path to the Super Bowl with a middle of the pack QB that costs about a 3rd of what other teams are paying their QBs? Or am I way off base?
Why would DJ sign a contract for that kind of money? If he continues to progress the Giants will pay him.
"Despite the Giants having a lot of receiving options who are dangerous with the ball in their hands, and scheming them ways to get run with the ball in space," What team is this guy watching? Nobody would confuse the WR's that get trotted out there every week as a dangerous group. He lost me after that statement.
whether he is correct about that statement or not, it doesn't affect his view that after watching every Jones throw, he found too many throws that were not placed well. Seems like you are looking for statements to dismiss a point of view you don't agree with.
I didn’t need to look for a statement that one just jumped out as I’m going to throw some crap out there to help make my argument.
This group doesn’t need any more thought provoking articles
He’s worthy of a long term deal at the end of the season, they’re better off moving on than paying him middle market QB money.
Moving on where? who are they going to pick at their spot in the draft? The last draft would have gotten them Kenny Pickett
Would you rather have him ?
It’s looking possible that Goff could be cut or Carr cut/traded.
Goff at $10 million is probably better for the Giants than Jones at $25 million. If Carr got cut (don’t see anyone trading significant capital for him with that contract) Carr at $15-$20 million on a 1-2 year deal is probably also better than signing Jones at $25 million.
Both would provide similar production at less money while allowing the Giants the ability to find their next QB if they can’t draft one this year.
read his twitter bio. He is a generic fan, not an NFL writer
Lawerence Tynes and Chris Bisignano, who are connected to the team, both have had more than a couple of private sessions with Daboll, both said they get the feeling he really likes Jones… a lot!
You can dismiss them as “company “ guys, you d be wrong, but that s ok.
Me, I m all in on this season, I ve no need to know right now if he ll be back next season.
Much more fun than trying to point out on a daily basis your perceived short comings of Jones
Chris is not connected to the team lol.
Define connected. He s in the building every day, speaking with players and coaches. Maybe a better word is access? But don’t play semantics, he has had discussions with Daboll and his take is as stated above
You might not agree it s a legit take, but it s certainly as legit as the article referenced in this thread
How Giants insider gets all this credibility because they have bias takes, but anytime anyone else in the media (who are more connected mind you) have something negative to say their credibility gets attacked.
You think Daboll is saying anything of value to Giants Insider? Why haven’t the beat writers said anything similar? He’s a thin skinned Giants homer with a podcast.
It’s looking possible that Goff could be cut or Carr cut/traded.
Goff at $10 million is probably better for the Giants than Jones at $25 million. If Carr got cut (don’t see anyone trading significant capital for him with that contract) Carr at $15-$20 million on a 1-2 year deal is probably also better than signing Jones at $25 million.
Both would provide similar production at less money while allowing the Giants the ability to find their next QB if they can’t draft one this year.
So if either of these guys would provide similar production don’t they set the salary level for the non elite QBs. If that’s the case Jones doesn’t get the $25-30M deal. With all that being said there’s going to be a lot of teams looking for new QBs next year.
How Giants insider gets all this credibility because they have bias takes, but anytime anyone else in the media (who are more connected mind you) have something negative to say their credibility gets attacked.
You think Daboll is saying anything of value to Giants Insider? Why haven’t the beat writers said anything similar? He’s a thin skinned Giants homer with a podcast.
If you have listened to Chris ‘ podcasts and concluded he has a positive Giants bias, I just totally disagree. He has been brutal on them the past two years.
But regardless of our individual thoughts on whether his opinions are good, do you think Daboll is going to tell GiantsInsider anything of significance?
It’s looking possible that Goff could be cut or Carr cut/traded.
Goff at $10 million is probably better for the Giants than Jones at $25 million. If Carr got cut (don’t see anyone trading significant capital for him with that contract) Carr at $15-$20 million on a 1-2 year deal is probably also better than signing Jones at $25 million.
Both would provide similar production at less money while allowing the Giants the ability to find their next QB if they can’t draft one this year.
Neither Goff or Carr are signing anywhere for 10m. The economics of the QB position is either your getting 30+ million a year to be a starter or around 8-10m to hold a clipboard.
Also both of those QB's as well as DJ are above average in QBR. Vegas can save 30m by cutting carr, detroit saves 20m by cutting Goff, but are either of those teams going to replace that production and how much does it cost? This is a terrible year to need a QB and have a top pick in the draft
RE: He thought Gettleman should have kept his job during last season.
But regardless of our individual thoughts on whether his opinions are good, do you think Daboll is going to tell GiantsInsider anything of significance?
No, and Bisignano didn’t say that.
He and Tynes both said the same thing. When in his presence they get a sense he really likes Daniel as a quarterback.
Body language, tone, reading the eyes? Who knows. I only included those remarks to make the point that the Jones decision is a fluid situation. Some here remain steadfast that the decision was made when they didn’t pick up his option.
By the way pretty sure the two guys mentioned watch the all 22 as well.
Even after all that they only felt like I s a 60% chance he s back…..again it s a fluid situation
“ I came across 30 plays over the first eight games where Jones had receivers running open downfield only to see him pull the ball down and either scramble or opt for a short pass instead. In particular, the Week 8 loss to the Seattle Seahawks, there were five different instances where the Giants had Darius Slayton or Wan’Dale Robinson open downfield for big gains or potential touchdowns, only for Jones to opt for shorter passes.”
Even if say half of those long passes are incomplete, those are a lot of long plays to leave on the table.
Besides making up the Benjamin stealing food from the cafeteria rumor
But regardless of our individual thoughts on whether his opinions are good, do you think Daboll is going to tell GiantsInsider anything of significance?
No, and Bisignano didn’t say that.
He and Tynes both said the same thing. When in his presence they get a sense he really likes Daniel as a quarterback.
Body language, tone, reading the eyes? Who knows. I only included those remarks to make the point that the Jones decision is a fluid situation. Some here remain steadfast that the decision was made when they didn’t pick up his option.
By the way pretty sure the two guys mentioned watch the all 22 as well.
Even after all that they only felt like I s a 60% chance he s back…..again it s a fluid situation
So GiantsInsider’s interpretation of Dabolls’ body language is what we’re going with that Daboll really likes Jones?
You guys are really arguing about the vibe a journalist
But regardless of our individual thoughts on whether his opinions are good, do you think Daboll is going to tell GiantsInsider anything of significance?
No, and Bisignano didn’t say that.
He and Tynes both said the same thing. When in his presence they get a sense he really likes Daniel as a quarterback.
Body language, tone, reading the eyes? Who knows. I only included those remarks to make the point that the Jones decision is a fluid situation. Some here remain steadfast that the decision was made when they didn’t pick up his option.
By the way pretty sure the two guys mentioned watch the all 22 as well.
Even after all that they only felt like I s a 60% chance he s back…..again it s a fluid situation
So GiantsInsider’s interpretation of Dabolls’ body language is what we’re going with that Daboll really likes Jones?
Just passing along info, they said what they said.
RE: You guys are really arguing about the vibe a journalist
It’s looking possible that Goff could be cut or Carr cut/traded.
Goff at $10 million is probably better for the Giants than Jones at $25 million. If Carr got cut (don’t see anyone trading significant capital for him with that contract) Carr at $15-$20 million on a 1-2 year deal is probably also better than signing Jones at $25 million.
Both would provide similar production at less money while allowing the Giants the ability to find their next QB if they can’t draft one this year.
Neither Goff or Carr are signing anywhere for 10m. The economics of the QB position is either your getting 30+ million a year to be a starter or around 8-10m to hold a clipboard.
Also both of those QB's as well as DJ are above average in QBR. Vegas can save 30m by cutting carr, detroit saves 20m by cutting Goff, but are either of those teams going to replace that production and how much does it cost? This is a terrible year to need a QB and have a top pick in the draft
Wait that makes too much sense! You can’t make comments like that on a DJ post.
“ I came across 30 plays over the first eight games where Jones had receivers running open downfield only to see him pull the ball down and either scramble or opt for a short pass instead. In particular, the Week 8 loss to the Seattle Seahawks, there were five different instances where the Giants had Darius Slayton or Wan’Dale Robinson open downfield for big gains or potential touchdowns, only for Jones to opt for shorter passes.
There were a number of posters after the Seattle game absolutely destroying me when I dared question the assessment No one is open.
When a defense is playing that many people in the box, it's pretty unlikely no one is open.
Jones has to make the plays that are there. Investing heavily in WRs and TEs will only be as successful as Jones's ability to hit them.
RE: RE: You guys are really arguing about the vibe a journalist
It’s looking possible that Goff could be cut or Carr cut/traded.
Goff at $10 million is probably better for the Giants than Jones at $25 million. If Carr got cut (don’t see anyone trading significant capital for him with that contract) Carr at $15-$20 million on a 1-2 year deal is probably also better than signing Jones at $25 million.
Both would provide similar production at less money while allowing the Giants the ability to find their next QB if they can’t draft one this year.
Neither Goff or Carr are signing anywhere for 10m. The economics of the QB position is either your getting 30+ million a year to be a starter or around 8-10m to hold a clipboard.
Also both of those QB's as well as DJ are above average in QBR. Vegas can save 30m by cutting carr, detroit saves 20m by cutting Goff, but are either of those teams going to replace that production and how much does it cost? This is a terrible year to need a QB and have a top pick in the draft
They’re both going to be picking at the top of the draft as of now?
“ I came across 30 plays over the first eight games where Jones had receivers running open downfield only to see him pull the ball down and either scramble or opt for a short pass instead. In particular, the Week 8 loss to the Seattle Seahawks, there were five different instances where the Giants had Darius Slayton or Wan’Dale Robinson open downfield for big gains or potential touchdowns, only for Jones to opt for shorter passes.”
Even if say half of those long passes are incomplete, those are a lot of long plays to leave on the table.
This was another made up piece of bullshit. He does admit later that he has no idea what the play design or was progression is or how he is being coached to read it out. He also admits that some might be clear out routs where there is no read to throw it to the receiver.
When jones misses a read we have the same 8 assholes screaming In Every thread for a week. There was near hysteria this week because Jones missed 2 possibly (I disagree on the tanner on the goal line). He is claiming Jones misses 4-5 deep shots per week? We don’t even take that many in a week. It’s absurd.
Any way 30 is just a stupid number that has no footing in reality.
And yes of course he misses some reads just like every single qb in every game.
RE: RE: RE: You guys are really arguing about the vibe a journalist
have mentioned a lot of the content in that article. And I thought this was a particularly good way to capture what we see here at BBI:
Quote:
Discussing Jones has been a fraught proposition since he was drafted. Emotional attachments and personal biases have abounded since he first put on a Giants hat in the spring of 2019. Everyone from John Mara down to Internet commenters have voiced concerns over coaching, injuries, and the Giants’ roster whenever the subject of Jones’ development has come up.
It's going to take, IMV, a major uptick in Jones's play - from here out - for him to be in the conversation as the long-term solution. The quality has a passer is just not a strength in his game. While there are moments where he's above average, most of the time Jones is average at best. And that's been the standard for nearly four years.
As I've written many, many times, the main characters in this evaluation story - Schoen, Daboll and Kafka - know what a high level QB looks like firsthand. QBs who can operationalize their entire playbooks. They have been spoiled watching this for the last 3+ years.
I can't imagine them settling for an option who doesn't offer more than 50% of that capability.
Group 1: It would set the team back if Jones isn’t the guy and the Giants need to reset at the position.
Group 2: it would set the team back if the Giants overpay for Jones and have a detrimental impact on the rest of the team.
This is why this decision is so fascinating.
Group 3: Jones isn't good enough to be considered a franchise QB.
I'm 3...then 2. I've seen nothing that makes me think Jones is a franchise QB. He's better this year, but he's average at best. Definitely not worth $30ish million a year. If they resign him, it should be for $15 million a year, for one year, or less.
Draft a rookie and use the extra money to build a better roster. There's a lot of QBs that can throw for 170 yards a game and 1 TD.
other than the already mocked comment on dangerous receivers. Our best receiver is a guy we almost cut before the season started and he took a paycut to vet minimum.
DJ is halfway between "a" guy and "the" guy. And he probably always will be. How close he is to "the" guy depends on how many of them you think there are in the league. I would say 5 to 10 at any give time.
People who think we have a shot of getting DJ on a 2 year deal (unless it is 2 years $70MM guaranteed) are kidding themselves. Given cap inflation, previous contracts, and the paucity of "the" guy in the NFL, he is going to get paid at least 4/100 and probably more like 5/150. That is if the year goes as it has.
I would suggest the number of "bad throws" if it is a rate of 25 per 200, is not a problem. Even Brady or Rogers are probably 10 to 15 per 200. Almost everybody else good is in that 25 or even higher range. That is just my guess, no research. Don't know what the stats across the league say.
Bottom line is that it is impossible for anyone not on the coaching staff to have a meaningful opinion. We don't know how much tailoring they are doing. We don't know if he is missing reads or if he is executing what they want. Maybe most important, which seems not to get discussed much, we don't know if some of the problems we think we see are correctable with more time in the offense. Daboll and Kafka know the answers to all those questions (or at least the first two). I am OK if they let him go and he signs elsewhere for a middling deal. I am OK if they sign him for 5/200 with a good structure, because they know 1,000% more than me or anyone else on this board. But I have to admit I like him and hope we keep him.
Nobody us giving DJ a 4 year deal. Why would they? Everyone else that gets big deals have out up franchinmse QB type numbers at least once in their career. DJ has never looked, or produced, like a franchise QB...ever! Thus idea that any team, other that maybe Washington (and look at their track records with QBs), will want to sign an unproductive QB to a longterm deal is nonsense.
It's funny...the Jones fanboys quote Tennehill and Wentz as comparative contracts, money and stats wise...those were both terrible contracts!?!? Why would anyone want to replicate those disasters?
RE: RE: RE: We have no idea who is going to be available.
It’s looking possible that Goff could be cut or Carr cut/traded.
Goff at $10 million is probably better for the Giants than Jones at $25 million. If Carr got cut (don’t see anyone trading significant capital for him with that contract) Carr at $15-$20 million on a 1-2 year deal is probably also better than signing Jones at $25 million.
Both would provide similar production at less money while allowing the Giants the ability to find their next QB if they can’t draft one this year.
Neither Goff or Carr are signing anywhere for 10m. The economics of the QB position is either your getting 30+ million a year to be a starter or around 8-10m to hold a clipboard.
Also both of those QB's as well as DJ are above average in QBR. Vegas can save 30m by cutting carr, detroit saves 20m by cutting Goff, but are either of those teams going to replace that production and how much does it cost? This is a terrible year to need a QB and have a top pick in the draft
They’re both going to be picking at the top of the draft as of now?
Houston, Carolina are currently 1-2 and both need qb's. Also I'd be willing to bet they would be better keeping their respective qb's and adding weapons around them, or doing something to protect them by either getting them a better line or defense so they don't have to score as many points
Also there is zero guarantee the rookie qb's are going to be any better and top draft pick rookies count 7-8 million against the cap so in detroits case are they better off with a rookie qb and 12-13m for a weapon or keeping goff and drafting a weapon for 7-8m
I guess Houston should keep Mills because there’s no guarantee Stroud will be better than Mills. Teams should probably just stop drafting QBs then.
We’re never going to be able to have logical conversation about QBs here if the tales are going to be “well the Lions don’t know if a rookie is going to be better than Jared Goff, so they might as well keep him”.
Group 1: It would set the team back if Jones isn’t the guy and the Giants need to reset at the position.
Group 2: it would set the team back if the Giants overpay for Jones and have a detrimental impact on the rest of the team.
This is why this decision is so fascinating.
Group 3: Jones isn't good enough to be considered a franchise QB.
I'm 3...then 2. I've seen nothing that makes me think Jones is a franchise QB. He's better this year, but he's average at best. Definitely not worth $30ish million a year. If they resign him, it should be for $15 million a year, for one year, or less.
Draft a rookie and use the extra money to build a better roster. There's a lot of QBs that can throw for 170 yards a game and 1 TD.
Not to keep quoting you after yesterday, and I actually agree with you that DJ is not a "franchise" qb. But franchise Qb's are getting 45-50m a year and average starters are getting 30m. So as much as I agree with you, the current qb market is that 30 = average. And although that sounds like a scary number as salary caps are increasing, its a drop in the hat.
Also, I don't believe this is a good qb draft, and Jones might make a better stop gap then drafting a severely raw talent at QB and trying to make chicken salad. I don't know if I can stomach another 4 win year even with a rookie qb.
I guess Houston should keep Mills because there’s no guarantee Stroud will be better than Mills. Teams should probably just stop drafting QBs then.
We’re never going to be able to have logical conversation about QBs here if the tales are going to be “well the Lions don’t know if a rookie is going to be better than Jared Goff, so they might as well keep him”.
Davis Mills is 30th in QBR, you can't get much worse than that.
Carr is 10th
Goff is 13th
The bar of average qb performance is lower than it was in years past. Your comparing replacing a bottom 3rd qb, vs middle tier, so thats not even a valid comparison.
Isn’t good. Why would the lions not want to take a risk with a rookie?
There aren't an unlimited amount of talented qb's in the draft. They can absolutely do worse with the wrong pick. And instead of forcing a qb at 5, they likely have options that can make the entire team better.
I guess Houston should keep Mills because there’s no guarantee Stroud will be better than Mills. Teams should probably just stop drafting QBs then.
That's the tactic most exercised by the Jones crowd - unless someone can guarantee a replacement can be better than Jones, why make the change?
Of course, that's impossible to guarantee. But the odds are very high that there are prospects in this draft more physically gifted than Jones.
You see, it's much easier to teach someone the mental side of the side because the physical side is just God given. You can't teach someone how to scramble, avoid tacklers, and then throw strikes down the field for big off-script players. And that's a big, big part of today's game - off script ability.
other than the already mocked comment on dangerous receivers. Our best receiver is a guy we almost cut before the season started and he took a paycut to vet minimum.
DJ is halfway between "a" guy and "the" guy. And he probably always will be. How close he is to "the" guy depends on how many of them you think there are in the league. I would say 5 to 10 at any give time.
People who think we have a shot of getting DJ on a 2 year deal (unless it is 2 years $70MM guaranteed) are kidding themselves. Given cap inflation, previous contracts, and the paucity of "the" guy in the NFL, he is going to get paid at least 4/100 and probably more like 5/150. That is if the year goes as it has.
I would suggest the number of "bad throws" if it is a rate of 25 per 200, is not a problem. Even Brady or Rogers are probably 10 to 15 per 200. Almost everybody else good is in that 25 or even higher range. That is just my guess, no research. Don't know what the stats across the league say.
Bottom line is that it is impossible for anyone not on the coaching staff to have a meaningful opinion. We don't know how much tailoring they are doing. We don't know if he is missing reads or if he is executing what they want. Maybe most important, which seems not to get discussed much, we don't know if some of the problems we think we see are correctable with more time in the offense. Daboll and Kafka know the answers to all those questions (or at least the first two). I am OK if they let him go and he signs elsewhere for a middling deal. I am OK if they sign him for 5/200 with a good structure, because they know 1,000% more than me or anyone else on this board. But I have to admit I like him and hope we keep him.
Nobody us giving DJ a 4 year deal. Why would they? Everyone else that gets big deals have out up franchinmse QB type numbers at least once in their career. DJ has never looked, or produced, like a franchise QB...ever! Thus idea that any team, other that maybe Washington (and look at their track records with QBs), will want to sign an unproductive QB to a longterm deal is nonsense.
It's funny...the Jones fanboys quote Tennehill and Wentz as comparative contracts, money and stats wise...those were both terrible contracts!?!? Why would anyone want to replicate those disasters?
Don’t you mean Giants fan boys? Pretty certain most of us who hope Daniel turns out to be the guy are Giants fans first.
“ I came across 30 plays over the first eight games where Jones had receivers running open downfield only to see him pull the ball down and either scramble or opt for a short pass instead. In particular, the Week 8 loss to the Seattle Seahawks, there were five different instances where the Giants had Darius Slayton or Wan’Dale Robinson open downfield for big gains or potential touchdowns, only for Jones to opt for shorter passes.”
Even if say half of those long passes are incomplete, those are a lot of long plays to leave on the table.
This was another made up piece of bullshit. He does admit later that he has no idea what the play design or was progression is or how he is being coached to read it out. He also admits that some might be clear out routs where there is no read to throw it to the receiver.
When jones misses a read we have the same 8 assholes screaming In Every thread for a week. There was near hysteria this week because Jones missed 2 possibly (I disagree on the tanner on the goal line). He is claiming Jones misses 4-5 deep shots per week? We don’t even take that many in a week. It’s absurd.
Any way 30 is just a stupid number that has no footing in reality.
And yes of course he misses some reads just like every single qb in every game.
For those who really think DJ is missing 4-5 deep shots/week, he is an inaccurate passer, throws behind the receivers, thinks slow and doesn't see the field, don't you think Schoen, Daboll and Kafka sees them in game films every week if it is true? Don't you think they know more than you and I do at what DJ is doing in games? And if you believe in Schoen, Daboll and the coaching staff do you really think they will keep DJ if he is as bad as you say he is? Or that they will keep DJ because DJ is better than what we think he is. I think if he was missing that many open receivers per game because as you say he don't see them or afraid to throw down field or making bad decisions or isn't the QB long term then I trust Schoen and Daboll to change QB mid season but they haven't or at the end of the season. But since they have not changed QB don't you think you should trust their judgement also. All said and done, DJ will be gone if he sucked that much as all you naysayer are saying. I heard all the negatives about Phil Simms and Eli and yet we won two SB with each of them. After the first year with DJ, all I heard was how good he was with 24/12 TD to Int ratio and everyone calling him Danny Dimes. His only drawback was his fumbling. Then year 2 and 3 came with one of the worst coaching staff for DJ or for a Giant team for that matter. That is why I don't count years 2 and 3 against him. Just throw it out. Now with a true coaching staff and GM, DJ seems to be playing a hell of a lot better with limited weapons. So if he truely is a piece of shit, I trust Schoen will get rid of him but I don't think he is and only Schoen's opinion matters.
other than the already mocked comment on dangerous receivers. Our best receiver is a guy we almost cut before the season started and he took a paycut to vet minimum.
DJ is halfway between "a" guy and "the" guy. And he probably always will be. How close he is to "the" guy depends on how many of them you think there are in the league. I would say 5 to 10 at any give time.
People who think we have a shot of getting DJ on a 2 year deal (unless it is 2 years $70MM guaranteed) are kidding themselves. Given cap inflation, previous contracts, and the paucity of "the" guy in the NFL, he is going to get paid at least 4/100 and probably more like 5/150. That is if the year goes as it has.
I would suggest the number of "bad throws" if it is a rate of 25 per 200, is not a problem. Even Brady or Rogers are probably 10 to 15 per 200. Almost everybody else good is in that 25 or even higher range. That is just my guess, no research. Don't know what the stats across the league say.
Bottom line is that it is impossible for anyone not on the coaching staff to have a meaningful opinion. We don't know how much tailoring they are doing. We don't know if he is missing reads or if he is executing what they want. Maybe most important, which seems not to get discussed much, we don't know if some of the problems we think we see are correctable with more time in the offense. Daboll and Kafka know the answers to all those questions (or at least the first two). I am OK if they let him go and he signs elsewhere for a middling deal. I am OK if they sign him for 5/200 with a good structure, because they know 1,000% more than me or anyone else on this board. But I have to admit I like him and hope we keep him.
Nobody us giving DJ a 4 year deal. Why would they? Everyone else that gets big deals have out up franchinmse QB type numbers at least once in their career. DJ has never looked, or produced, like a franchise QB...ever! Thus idea that any team, other that maybe Washington (and look at their track records with QBs), will want to sign an unproductive QB to a longterm deal is nonsense.
It's funny...the Jones fanboys quote Tennehill and Wentz as comparative contracts, money and stats wise...those were both terrible contracts!?!? Why would anyone want to replicate those disasters?
Don’t you mean Giants fan boys? Pretty certain most of us who hope Daniel turns out to be the guy are Giants fans first.
You can be a Giants fan, hope DJ keeps doing the what he's doing to keep winning games, hope the Giants keep playing great defense, hope Saquon stays healthy (because DJ will look terrible if SB gets hurt), and hope the Giants keep winning....and not hope the Giants waste anymore time and money on an average QB next year.
It's possible that Jones will sign a very reasonable deal for his own interests, which include Continuity of a System that Friendly and beneficial to him, Excellent Coaching, and a Chance to remain a Starter. If he signs a 2-3 year Bargain deal, he may come out the other end as an under 30 year old legitimate Starter/Franchise QB... That's 100-200 million dollar payoff for "staying in school" for another 2-3 years.
Group 1: It would set the team back if Jones isn’t the guy and the Giants need to reset at the position.
Group 2: it would set the team back if the Giants overpay for Jones and have a detrimental impact on the rest of the team.
This is why this decision is so fascinating.
Group 3: Jones isn't good enough to be considered a franchise QB.
I'm 3...then 2. I've seen nothing that makes me think Jones is a franchise QB. He's better this year, but he's average at best. Definitely not worth $30ish million a year. If they resign him, it should be for $15 million a year, for one year, or less.
Draft a rookie and use the extra money to build a better roster. There's a lot of QBs that can throw for 170 yards a game and 1 TD.
Not to keep quoting you after yesterday, and I actually agree with you that DJ is not a "franchise" qb. But franchise Qb's are getting 45-50m a year and average starters are getting 30m. So as much as I agree with you, the current qb market is that 30 = average. And although that sounds like a scary number as salary caps are increasing, its a drop in the hat.
Also, I don't believe this is a good qb draft, and Jones might make a better stop gap then drafting a severely raw talent at QB and trying to make chicken salad. I don't know if I can stomach another 4 win year even with a rookie qb.
What about below average QBs? His play may be average but his stats are way below average.
The pain is coming again for this franchise regardless...DJ isn't winning a Super Bowl no matter how long you keep him. Might as well get a rookie in here and see what he can become. I can take another 4 win season if it means eventually becoming a SB contender...I don't see the point of trying to sneak into the playoffs with no chance of winning a SB.
I would like to see other QBs in the league measured to the same standards, even the considered great ones. I see misplaced balls, behind WRs and almost interceptions every Sunday by many QBs and I also see great catches made on QBs errant throws. My point is DJ is under a microscope his every throw and move is analyzed, if others were put to the same test I believe we would see same or close results.
Who, pray tell, are these teeming receiving options? Dangerous with the ball in their hands, I'll grant. But the danger is that they won't make any extra yardage or will, once the ball is in their hands, immediately drop it.
The record so far is terrific and Jones has been a lot of fun to watch on Sunday. The Giants are playing meaningful football for the first time in a decade. These coaches look legit. But this is a big test for Schoen. Signing Jones and especially Barkley look like big mistakes to me. In fact it seems like exactly what the Titans did with Tennehill and King Henry. And as good as Jones and Barkley have been, I think you could argue that Tennahil and Henry had been better. Having said that, I could see signing Jones for a two year deal, I’m not sure there’s anything better in the draft or UFA. I would also like to see Jones play with a legit WR1 who can make plays. He’s really never had one and that does matter in evaluation.
Barkley has injury history that will be taken into consideration. Jones has had major consistency issues that won’t be ignored when it is time to make a decision.
Judge the contracts
Jones' accuracy and ball placement are still not good.
He has improved his pocket awareness and he is running with better purpose.
But it still seems to me that unless he rushes for 75 yards a week, he's not a QB a great team builds around.
Barkley has injury history that will be taken into consideration. Jones has had major consistency issues that won’t be ignored when it is time to make a decision.
Judge the contracts
yes, could be a solution.
whether he is correct about that statement or not, it doesn't affect his view that after watching every Jones throw, he found too many throws that were not placed well. Seems like you are looking for statements to dismiss a point of view you don't agree with.
My biggest issue with the article is he talks about Allen or Mahomes as guys that the whole league wants after seeing them in the playoffs last year. Well, duh. No one is making the argument that DJ is better than those two. But it’s not a fair basis for comparison. There aren’t more than a handful of QBs like that out there.
Group 2: it would set the team back if the Giants overpay for Jones and have a detrimental impact on the rest of the team.
This is why this decision is so fascinating.
This is known as the credentials fallacy. He watched every Jones play. Attack his argument, not his background.
Who, pray tell, are these teeming receiving options? Dangerous with the ball in their hands, I'll grant. But the danger is that they won't make any extra yardage or will, once the ball is in their hands, immediately drop it.
he's not saying that catch the ball -- he's saying that can run, and are dangerous with the ball after the catch
I think there are at least 4: Barkley, Robinson, Bellinger, Slayton, (used to be Shep) that can catch and then run with the ball and get YAC. James and Sims can run with the ball after the catch -- they are just not as consistent as the former(s). So his statement is a fair statement imo.
Group 2: it would set the team back if the Giants overpay for Jones and have a detrimental impact on the rest of the team.
This is why this decision is so fascinating.
Group 3: Jones isn't good enough to be considered a franchise QB.
Jones has led some great fourth quarter drives with subpar WRs and TEs who have difficult separating. He's been a lot more than a "game manager" in those victories.
But his ball placement is still poor on too many throws, the offense is geared to maximize his strengths (running) and minimize his weaknesses, and he's still not seeing too many open receivers.
Jones has nine more games to convince the Giants to at least use the FT on him. But unless he totally collapses, many teams will likely be more than willing to sign him to a lucrative long-term deal. The Giants would then have to either use the FT on him or start over. Whatever they do, Schoen, Daboll, and Kafka have to get that decision right.
Pure unadulterated rubbish.
To be fair, when NFL writers say similar things their credibility gets attacked too.
Jones has led some great fourth quarter drives with subpar WRs and TEs who have difficult separating. He's been a lot more than a "game manager" in those victories.
But his ball placement is still poor on too many throws, the offense is geared to maximize his strengths (running) and minimize his weaknesses, and he's still not seeing too many open receivers.
Jones has nine more games to convince the Giants to at least use the FT on him. But unless he totally collapses, many teams will likely be more than willing to sign him to a lucrative long-term deal. The Giants would then have to either use the FT on him or start over. Whatever they do, Schoen, Daboll, and Kafka have to get that decision right.
Every time I read comments about Jones’ ball placement, I think about Eli. Not the playoff caliber Eli who could make almost every throw when it counted. I’m thinking of the regular season Eli who could throw the ball above a receiver’s head and hang him out to dry. Final judgement on Jones is if he can get the team to the playoffs, and how far he can go.
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read his twitter bio. He is a generic fan, not an NFL writer
This is known as the credentials fallacy. He watched every Jones play. Attack his argument, not his background.
There is no point in reading his argument because he has no background and no credentials. He is a fan, not someone with detailed football acumen and years covering the league
If he had written that Jones has been awesome and should be signed to a longterm big money contract, it would carry the same weight - zero
Its a blog post from a fan who has zero credentials
Who, pray tell, are these teeming receiving options? Dangerous with the ball in their hands, I'll grant. But the danger is that they won't make any extra yardage or will, once the ball is in their hands, immediately drop it.
Agreed. In theory, before camp started, you can say you think toney and wandale would be excellent YAC contributors. But when the bullets flies, nope. Toney didn’t seem interested in suiting up, wandale shows that he can get open but no YAC at all to start.
He would have less pressure on him, he could have sat for a year behind Eli and learned how to be an NFL QB, and the Giants probably could have extended him for a reasonable contract already.
I am waiting until the season is over to make up my mind (for whatever its worth, i.e. not much) but he was always a developmental prospect, and I think throwing him in as a starter 3 games into his career significantly delayed his development.
He picked up a lot of bad habits in that first year that have been hard to shake. It would think it's due trauma playing behind the worst OL in football his first 3 years, plus not having any reliable WRs.
He's definitely improving in some areas (not giving up on first read; short and intermediate pass accuracy) but the issues are still there.
If I was a DC, this would be exactly what I would do
If you know WRs options are so-so to be very generous, make them beat u consistently
It’s obvious we need at least 2 more wr1/2 level receivers.
Fact is, if draft lined up correctly, I would draft 3. Two in first 3 rds and a flyer on one in 5/6 area.
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of the good and bad about Jones has been document in articles like this and film review from many people, including Skinner.
Jones has led some great fourth quarter drives with subpar WRs and TEs who have difficult separating. He's been a lot more than a "game manager" in those victories.
But his ball placement is still poor on too many throws, the offense is geared to maximize his strengths (running) and minimize his weaknesses, and he's still not seeing too many open receivers.
Jones has nine more games to convince the Giants to at least use the FT on him. But unless he totally collapses, many teams will likely be more than willing to sign him to a lucrative long-term deal. The Giants would then have to either use the FT on him or start over. Whatever they do, Schoen, Daboll, and Kafka have to get that decision right.
Every time I read comments about Jones’ ball placement, I think about Eli. Not the playoff caliber Eli who could make almost every throw when it counted. I’m thinking of the regular season Eli who could throw the ball above a receiver’s head and hang him out to dry. Final judgement on Jones is if he can get the team to the playoffs, and how far he can go.
Except Eli had a true cannon arm and the best deep ball touch of any QB in the NFL since Marino.
I think it can still go a few different ways. That's why the best course of action is to be patient and let the season play out imv. It will be much clearer then what needs to be done.
Do you think there is a chance the Giants cut or extend Jones before the season is over?
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read his twitter bio. He is a generic fan, not an NFL writer
This is known as the credentials fallacy. He watched every Jones play. Attack his argument, not his background.
Lol. So every soul on the planet who watches some games we need to listen to. Ughhh
I want to add I don't consider this a binary yes/no decision. Its the intersection of what they think of Jones/what else is realistically available to build a future on/how much Jones wants. For example a bad scenario is they let Jones go, start Tyrod, but still don't get the "future QB" on the roster (either via draft or trade). Then we have continued mediocre to poor QB play without a plan for the future.
Conversely, they'll save 10s of millions in cap space that can be invested in retaining or getting good players.
This is the question. If other teams can limit Jones as Seattle did, can he ajust and still lead the team to victories. The rest of the season should give us the answer.
I'm sure there are a list of the things they realize they can't learn about a QB this year, and will take that into consideration.
The big question is how much are the Giants willing to bet that if they improve the pass protection and upgrade WR, Jones won't be scraping the barrel in pass productivity.
I'd say the Giants are willing to give Jones another year with better guns, and see if he's dangerous.
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of $$$ and talent), the Tyrod becomes the guy and they will likely try to move up in the draft which will cost a lot (which sucks because we need help in other areas too).
Conversely, they'll save 10s of millions in cap space that can be invested in retaining or getting good players.
What good players are going to sign with a team that has no long-term quarterback in place?
he's not saying that catch the ball -- he's saying that can run, and are dangerous with the ball after the catch
I think there are at least 4: Barkley, Robinson, Bellinger, Slayton, (used to be Shep) that can catch and then run with the ball and get YAC. James and Sims can run with the ball after the catch -- they are just not as consistent as the former(s). So his statement is a fair statement imo.
You are correct in your interpretation of the author's intent, but I'm not sure I agree with your list of "dangerous" YAC receivers at all. Barkley is certainly dangerous in space. Robinson looks promising in that regard as well. Bellinger also has some potential, at least based on his athleticism. James maybe as well, though his history prior to the Giants is pretty limited.
Slayton has averaged 3.2 YAC over his career, and I'm not sure what in Sills (I'm assuming you meant Sills and not Sims?) limited history and incredibly mediocre RAS score suggests he has any untapped YAC potential. Shepard has nearly identical YAC to Slayton over the course of his career as well, though it does seem like his YAC average would have benefitted from a lot of the horizontal routes we employ.
I could maybe see making that statement prior to the season when we thought Toney, Robinson, Saquon, and Shepard would be the major focus of our passing attack, but we have all seen how the season has played out. Of those 4 players, only Saquon hasn't missed significant time. So it really is a head scratcher.
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In comment 15898772 PatersonPlank said:
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of $$$ and talent), the Tyrod becomes the guy and they will likely try to move up in the draft which will cost a lot (which sucks because we need help in other areas too).
Conversely, they'll save 10s of millions in cap space that can be invested in retaining or getting good players.
What good players are going to sign with a team that has no long-term quarterback in place?
The ones who want to make good money and play for an excellent head coach who trust the GM will make a good a decision at QB.
DJ is halfway between "a" guy and "the" guy. And he probably always will be. How close he is to "the" guy depends on how many of them you think there are in the league. I would say 5 to 10 at any give time.
People who think we have a shot of getting DJ on a 2 year deal (unless it is 2 years $70MM guaranteed) are kidding themselves. Given cap inflation, previous contracts, and the paucity of "the" guy in the NFL, he is going to get paid at least 4/100 and probably more like 5/150. That is if the year goes as it has.
I would suggest the number of "bad throws" if it is a rate of 25 per 200, is not a problem. Even Brady or Rogers are probably 10 to 15 per 200. Almost everybody else good is in that 25 or even higher range. That is just my guess, no research. Don't know what the stats across the league say.
Bottom line is that it is impossible for anyone not on the coaching staff to have a meaningful opinion. We don't know how much tailoring they are doing. We don't know if he is missing reads or if he is executing what they want. Maybe most important, which seems not to get discussed much, we don't know if some of the problems we think we see are correctable with more time in the offense. Daboll and Kafka know the answers to all those questions (or at least the first two). I am OK if they let him go and he signs elsewhere for a middling deal. I am OK if they sign him for 5/200 with a good structure, because they know 1,000% more than me or anyone else on this board. But I have to admit I like him and hope we keep him.
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In comment 15898777 christian said:
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In comment 15898772 PatersonPlank said:
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of $$$ and talent), the Tyrod becomes the guy and they will likely try to move up in the draft which will cost a lot (which sucks because we need help in other areas too).
Conversely, they'll save 10s of millions in cap space that can be invested in retaining or getting good players.
What good players are going to sign with a team that has no long-term quarterback in place?
The ones who want to make good money and play for an excellent head coach who trust the GM will make a good a decision at QB.
Players have a very short shelf life in the NFL, they're not going to wait around 4 years so that the Giants can figure out quarterback. Especially when they have many other teams to sign with
I'm sure there are a list of the things they realize they can't learn about a QB this year, and will take that into consideration.
The big question is how much are the Giants willing to bet that if they improve the pass protection and upgrade WR, Jones won't be scraping the barrel in pass productivity.
I'd say the Giants are willing to give Jones another year with better guns, and see if he's dangerous.
I have maintained for at least the last two years that I think Jones' ceiling is middle of the road NFL QB. At times this season, he has played much better than that, but I don't think he'll ever consistently be a Top 10 kind of guy. I think he'll tease with his arm and legs from time to time, but mostly play mediocre to slightly above average. I'm generally ok moving on, but the issue is I'm not sure there are better options available to the Giants this season.
Schoen and Daboll are in a tough spot. If they cut Jones loose, go with Tyrod next year, and the team takes a step back (which I think is very likely), how much patience will Mara/Tisch have? They'd probably gain more leeway if they draft a rookie QB, but I don't know that we have the assets to trade up to get a Young/Stroud/Levis (if you believe they have the potential to be Franchise guys. I'm not personally sold myself).
On the other hand, it seems like giving Jones a long-term, big money contract is foolish. Ideally, they'd be able to resign him to a shorter (2-4 year), team friendly contract that they can easily move on from financially if they acquire a decent prospect in the next few years, but it really just feels like treading water.
I don't envy their position. Thankfully, I trust them to make the right one. QB Hell indeed.
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"Despite the Giants having a lot of receiving options who are dangerous with the ball in their hands, and scheming them ways to get run with the ball in space," What team is this guy watching? Nobody would confuse the WR's that get trotted out there every week as a dangerous group. He lost me after that statement.
whether he is correct about that statement or not, it doesn't affect his view that after watching every Jones throw, he found too many throws that were not placed well. Seems like you are looking for statements to dismiss a point of view you don't agree with.
Uh, it's foundational to one of his arguments that Jones doesn't pass for a lot of yards. Taking exception to an erroneous point has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with the rest of the observations. Methinks you are the one with the dismissal problem.
Lawerence Tynes and Chris Bisignano, who are connected to the team, both have had more than a couple of private sessions with Daboll, both said they get the feeling he really likes Jones… a lot!
You can dismiss them as “company “ guys, you d be wrong, but that s ok.
Me, I m all in on this season, I ve no need to know right now if he ll be back next season.
Much more fun than trying to point out on a daily basis your perceived short comings of Jones
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he's not saying that catch the ball -- he's saying that can run, and are dangerous with the ball after the catch
I think there are at least 4: Barkley, Robinson, Bellinger, Slayton, (used to be Shep) that can catch and then run with the ball and get YAC. James and Sims can run with the ball after the catch -- they are just not as consistent as the former(s). So his statement is a fair statement imo.
You are correct in your interpretation of the author's intent, but I'm not sure I agree with your list of "dangerous" YAC receivers at all. Barkley is certainly dangerous in space. Robinson looks promising in that regard as well. Bellinger also has some potential, at least based on his athleticism. James maybe as well, though his history prior to the Giants is pretty limited.
I could maybe see making that statement prior to the season when we thought Toney, Robinson, Saquon, and Shepard would be the major focus of our passing attack, but we have all seen how the season has played out. Of those 4 players, only Saquon hasn't missed significant time. So it really is a head scratcher.
Reading is fundamental. The author used the word "teeming." It is obvious that the Giants are hardly "teeming" with dangerous, after-the-catch receivers.
Reading is fundamental. The author used the word "teeming." It is obvious that the Giants are hardly "teeming" with dangerous, after-the-catch receivers.
Not exactly sure why this is directed at me. It appears we are in agreement here.
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read his twitter bio. He is a generic fan, not an NFL writer
Lawerence Tynes and Chris Bisignano, who are connected to the team, both have had more than a couple of private sessions with Daboll, both said they get the feeling he really likes Jones… a lot!
You can dismiss them as “company “ guys, you d be wrong, but that s ok.
Me, I m all in on this season, I ve no need to know right now if he ll be back next season.
Much more fun than trying to point out on a daily basis your perceived short comings of Jones
What would you pay Jones? You never seem to address this. Franchise tag?
You said a couple of weeks ago that there is no drop off from Dak to Cooper Rush. That is the exact scenario a lot on BBI want to avoid.
Jones' accuracy and ball placement are still not good.
He has improved his pocket awareness and he is running with better purpose.
But it still seems to me that unless he rushes for 75 yards a week, he's not a QB a great team builds around.
Are you kidding? Accuracy and ball placement are his strengths. It seems to me that his weakness is decision making… or at least the speed with which he makes decisions, but he has shown some improvement there.
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we have been winning.
Jones' accuracy and ball placement are still not good.
He has improved his pocket awareness and he is running with better purpose.
But it still seems to me that unless he rushes for 75 yards a week, he's not a QB a great team builds around.
Are you kidding? Accuracy and ball placement are his strengths. It seems to me that his weakness is decision making… or at least the speed with which he makes decisions, but he has shown some improvement there.
This has been Producer s take for a while. I agree with you about his accuracy as do many NFL people.
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In comment 15898730 BigBlue565358 said:
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read his twitter bio. He is a generic fan, not an NFL writer
Lawerence Tynes and Chris Bisignano, who are connected to the team, both have had more than a couple of private sessions with Daboll, both said they get the feeling he really likes Jones… a lot!
You can dismiss them as “company “ guys, you d be wrong, but that s ok.
Me, I m all in on this season, I ve no need to know right now if he ll be back next season.
Much more fun than trying to point out on a daily basis your perceived short comings of Jones
What would you pay Jones? You never seem to address this. Franchise tag?
You said a couple of weeks ago that there is no drop off from Dak to Cooper Rush. That is the exact scenario a lot on BBI want to avoid.
Sean I ve conceded the point that economics will be part of the decision. Are you really interested in my take on what they should pay him.
I have no idea, I m not qualified to even offer an opinion about that. I trust Schoen will have a price in mind if wants to keep Jones.
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read his twitter bio. He is a generic fan, not an NFL writer
Lawerence Tynes and Chris Bisignano, who are connected to the team, both have had more than a couple of private sessions with Daboll, both said they get the feeling he really likes Jones… a lot!
You can dismiss them as “company “ guys, you d be wrong, but that s ok.
Me, I m all in on this season, I ve no need to know right now if he ll be back next season.
Much more fun than trying to point out on a daily basis your perceived short comings of Jones
Chris is not connected to the team lol.
The next step is the simple, but difficult one: how much are Daboll and Schoen willing to bet Jones + a few upgrades is a championship level QB.
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we have been winning.
Jones' accuracy and ball placement are still not good.
He has improved his pocket awareness and he is running with better purpose.
But it still seems to me that unless he rushes for 75 yards a week, he's not a QB a great team builds around.
Are you kidding? Accuracy and ball placement are his strengths. It seems to me that his weakness is decision making… or at least the speed with which he makes decisions, but he has shown some improvement there.
I am not kidding. Jones has some nice qualities but accuracy and ball placement are not among them. His comp pct is consistently bottom third of the league. And ball placement is often suspect. We have lost games due to Jones throwing to the wrong side.
The next step is the simple, but difficult one: how much are Daboll and Schoen willing to bet Jones + a few upgrades is a championship level QB.
like as in likes him as a person? sure. Like, as in likes as a foundational QB, I'm not so sure.
But as Robert Smith once sang:
I was sure you'd be the one but I was wrong
It seems reality destroys our dreams
Richie James, David Sills and Marcus Johnson really got a fanbase here.
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In comment 15898717 Producer said:
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we have been winning.
Jones' accuracy and ball placement are still not good.
He has improved his pocket awareness and he is running with better purpose.
But it still seems to me that unless he rushes for 75 yards a week, he's not a QB a great team builds around.
Are you kidding? Accuracy and ball placement are his strengths. It seems to me that his weakness is decision making… or at least the speed with which he makes decisions, but he has shown some improvement there.
I am not kidding. Jones has some nice qualities but accuracy and ball placement are not among them. His comp pct is consistently bottom third of the league. And ball placement is often suspect. We have lost games due to Jones throwing to the wrong side.
You must be watching a different player than I am.
Why would DJ sign a contract for that kind of money? If he continues to progress the Giants will pay him.
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"Despite the Giants having a lot of receiving options who are dangerous with the ball in their hands, and scheming them ways to get run with the ball in space," What team is this guy watching? Nobody would confuse the WR's that get trotted out there every week as a dangerous group. He lost me after that statement.
whether he is correct about that statement or not, it doesn't affect his view that after watching every Jones throw, he found too many throws that were not placed well. Seems like you are looking for statements to dismiss a point of view you don't agree with.
Moving on where? who are they going to pick at their spot in the draft? The last draft would have gotten them Kenny Pickett
Would you rather have him ?
Goff at $10 million is probably better for the Giants than Jones at $25 million. If Carr got cut (don’t see anyone trading significant capital for him with that contract) Carr at $15-$20 million on a 1-2 year deal is probably also better than signing Jones at $25 million.
Both would provide similar production at less money while allowing the Giants the ability to find their next QB if they can’t draft one this year.
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In comment 15898730 BigBlue565358 said:
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read his twitter bio. He is a generic fan, not an NFL writer
Lawerence Tynes and Chris Bisignano, who are connected to the team, both have had more than a couple of private sessions with Daboll, both said they get the feeling he really likes Jones… a lot!
You can dismiss them as “company “ guys, you d be wrong, but that s ok.
Me, I m all in on this season, I ve no need to know right now if he ll be back next season.
Much more fun than trying to point out on a daily basis your perceived short comings of Jones
Chris is not connected to the team lol.
Define connected. He s in the building every day, speaking with players and coaches. Maybe a better word is access? But don’t play semantics, he has had discussions with Daboll and his take is as stated above
You might not agree it s a legit take, but it s certainly as legit as the article referenced in this thread
You think Daboll is saying anything of value to Giants Insider? Why haven’t the beat writers said anything similar? He’s a thin skinned Giants homer with a podcast.
Goff at $10 million is probably better for the Giants than Jones at $25 million. If Carr got cut (don’t see anyone trading significant capital for him with that contract) Carr at $15-$20 million on a 1-2 year deal is probably also better than signing Jones at $25 million.
Both would provide similar production at less money while allowing the Giants the ability to find their next QB if they can’t draft one this year.
You think Daboll is saying anything of value to Giants Insider? Why haven’t the beat writers said anything similar? He’s a thin skinned Giants homer with a podcast.
If you have listened to Chris ‘ podcasts and concluded he has a positive Giants bias, I just totally disagree. He has been brutal on them the past two years.
He did defend Gettleman, as to an ability to draft talent. But he killed him for his coaching hires and his arrogance.
I listen to many podcasts on my walks, listen to all of theirs. You re way off base here.
Goff at $10 million is probably better for the Giants than Jones at $25 million. If Carr got cut (don’t see anyone trading significant capital for him with that contract) Carr at $15-$20 million on a 1-2 year deal is probably also better than signing Jones at $25 million.
Both would provide similar production at less money while allowing the Giants the ability to find their next QB if they can’t draft one this year.
Neither Goff or Carr are signing anywhere for 10m. The economics of the QB position is either your getting 30+ million a year to be a starter or around 8-10m to hold a clipboard.
Also both of those QB's as well as DJ are above average in QBR. Vegas can save 30m by cutting carr, detroit saves 20m by cutting Goff, but are either of those teams going to replace that production and how much does it cost? This is a terrible year to need a QB and have a top pick in the draft
No, and Bisignano didn’t say that.
He and Tynes both said the same thing. When in his presence they get a sense he really likes Daniel as a quarterback.
Body language, tone, reading the eyes? Who knows. I only included those remarks to make the point that the Jones decision is a fluid situation. Some here remain steadfast that the decision was made when they didn’t pick up his option.
By the way pretty sure the two guys mentioned watch the all 22 as well.
Even after all that they only felt like I s a 60% chance he s back…..again it s a fluid situation
Even if say half of those long passes are incomplete, those are a lot of long plays to leave on the table.
. - ( New Window )
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But regardless of our individual thoughts on whether his opinions are good, do you think Daboll is going to tell GiantsInsider anything of significance?
No, and Bisignano didn’t say that.
He and Tynes both said the same thing. When in his presence they get a sense he really likes Daniel as a quarterback.
Body language, tone, reading the eyes? Who knows. I only included those remarks to make the point that the Jones decision is a fluid situation. Some here remain steadfast that the decision was made when they didn’t pick up his option.
By the way pretty sure the two guys mentioned watch the all 22 as well.
Even after all that they only felt like I s a 60% chance he s back…..again it s a fluid situation
So GiantsInsider’s interpretation of Dabolls’ body language is what we’re going with that Daboll really likes Jones?
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In comment 15899121 ajr2456 said:
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But regardless of our individual thoughts on whether his opinions are good, do you think Daboll is going to tell GiantsInsider anything of significance?
No, and Bisignano didn’t say that.
He and Tynes both said the same thing. When in his presence they get a sense he really likes Daniel as a quarterback.
Body language, tone, reading the eyes? Who knows. I only included those remarks to make the point that the Jones decision is a fluid situation. Some here remain steadfast that the decision was made when they didn’t pick up his option.
By the way pretty sure the two guys mentioned watch the all 22 as well.
Even after all that they only felt like I s a 60% chance he s back…..again it s a fluid situation
So GiantsInsider’s interpretation of Dabolls’ body language is what we’re going with that Daboll really likes Jones?
Just passing along info, they said what they said.
For the two of us, I guess it is or we wouldn’t be engaging. Probably shouldn’t let it bother you.
Just watching games and bantering witH a fellow BBI er
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It’s looking possible that Goff could be cut or Carr cut/traded.
Goff at $10 million is probably better for the Giants than Jones at $25 million. If Carr got cut (don’t see anyone trading significant capital for him with that contract) Carr at $15-$20 million on a 1-2 year deal is probably also better than signing Jones at $25 million.
Both would provide similar production at less money while allowing the Giants the ability to find their next QB if they can’t draft one this year.
Neither Goff or Carr are signing anywhere for 10m. The economics of the QB position is either your getting 30+ million a year to be a starter or around 8-10m to hold a clipboard.
Also both of those QB's as well as DJ are above average in QBR. Vegas can save 30m by cutting carr, detroit saves 20m by cutting Goff, but are either of those teams going to replace that production and how much does it cost? This is a terrible year to need a QB and have a top pick in the draft
There were a number of posters after the Seattle game absolutely destroying me when I dared question the assessment No one is open.
When a defense is playing that many people in the box, it's pretty unlikely no one is open.
Jones has to make the plays that are there. Investing heavily in WRs and TEs will only be as successful as Jones's ability to hit them.
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Was getting from Daboll? Is this actually worth discussing?
For the two of us, I guess it is or we wouldn’t be engaging. Probably shouldn’t let it bother you.
Just watching games and bantering witH a fellow BBI er
Not our fault there’s two bad games on lol
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It’s looking possible that Goff could be cut or Carr cut/traded.
Goff at $10 million is probably better for the Giants than Jones at $25 million. If Carr got cut (don’t see anyone trading significant capital for him with that contract) Carr at $15-$20 million on a 1-2 year deal is probably also better than signing Jones at $25 million.
Both would provide similar production at less money while allowing the Giants the ability to find their next QB if they can’t draft one this year.
Neither Goff or Carr are signing anywhere for 10m. The economics of the QB position is either your getting 30+ million a year to be a starter or around 8-10m to hold a clipboard.
Also both of those QB's as well as DJ are above average in QBR. Vegas can save 30m by cutting carr, detroit saves 20m by cutting Goff, but are either of those teams going to replace that production and how much does it cost? This is a terrible year to need a QB and have a top pick in the draft
They’re both going to be picking at the top of the draft as of now?
Even if say half of those long passes are incomplete, those are a lot of long plays to leave on the table.
This was another made up piece of bullshit. He does admit later that he has no idea what the play design or was progression is or how he is being coached to read it out. He also admits that some might be clear out routs where there is no read to throw it to the receiver.
When jones misses a read we have the same 8 assholes screaming In Every thread for a week. There was near hysteria this week because Jones missed 2 possibly (I disagree on the tanner on the goal line). He is claiming Jones misses 4-5 deep shots per week? We don’t even take that many in a week. It’s absurd.
Any way 30 is just a stupid number that has no footing in reality.
And yes of course he misses some reads just like every single qb in every game.
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In comment 15899152 cosmicj said:
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Was getting from Daboll? Is this actually worth discussing?
For the two of us, I guess it is or we wouldn’t be engaging. Probably shouldn’t let it bother you.
Just watching games and bantering witH a fellow BBI er
Not our fault there’s two bad games on lol
Lol. Good one ajr. 👍
It's going to take, IMV, a major uptick in Jones's play - from here out - for him to be in the conversation as the long-term solution. The quality has a passer is just not a strength in his game. While there are moments where he's above average, most of the time Jones is average at best. And that's been the standard for nearly four years.
As I've written many, many times, the main characters in this evaluation story - Schoen, Daboll and Kafka - know what a high level QB looks like firsthand. QBs who can operationalize their entire playbooks. They have been spoiled watching this for the last 3+ years.
I can't imagine them settling for an option who doesn't offer more than 50% of that capability.
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Group 1: It would set the team back if Jones isn’t the guy and the Giants need to reset at the position.
Group 2: it would set the team back if the Giants overpay for Jones and have a detrimental impact on the rest of the team.
This is why this decision is so fascinating.
Group 3: Jones isn't good enough to be considered a franchise QB.
I'm 3...then 2. I've seen nothing that makes me think Jones is a franchise QB. He's better this year, but he's average at best. Definitely not worth $30ish million a year. If they resign him, it should be for $15 million a year, for one year, or less.
Draft a rookie and use the extra money to build a better roster. There's a lot of QBs that can throw for 170 yards a game and 1 TD.
DJ is halfway between "a" guy and "the" guy. And he probably always will be. How close he is to "the" guy depends on how many of them you think there are in the league. I would say 5 to 10 at any give time.
People who think we have a shot of getting DJ on a 2 year deal (unless it is 2 years $70MM guaranteed) are kidding themselves. Given cap inflation, previous contracts, and the paucity of "the" guy in the NFL, he is going to get paid at least 4/100 and probably more like 5/150. That is if the year goes as it has.
I would suggest the number of "bad throws" if it is a rate of 25 per 200, is not a problem. Even Brady or Rogers are probably 10 to 15 per 200. Almost everybody else good is in that 25 or even higher range. That is just my guess, no research. Don't know what the stats across the league say.
Bottom line is that it is impossible for anyone not on the coaching staff to have a meaningful opinion. We don't know how much tailoring they are doing. We don't know if he is missing reads or if he is executing what they want. Maybe most important, which seems not to get discussed much, we don't know if some of the problems we think we see are correctable with more time in the offense. Daboll and Kafka know the answers to all those questions (or at least the first two). I am OK if they let him go and he signs elsewhere for a middling deal. I am OK if they sign him for 5/200 with a good structure, because they know 1,000% more than me or anyone else on this board. But I have to admit I like him and hope we keep him.
Nobody us giving DJ a 4 year deal. Why would they? Everyone else that gets big deals have out up franchinmse QB type numbers at least once in their career. DJ has never looked, or produced, like a franchise QB...ever! Thus idea that any team, other that maybe Washington (and look at their track records with QBs), will want to sign an unproductive QB to a longterm deal is nonsense.
It's funny...the Jones fanboys quote Tennehill and Wentz as comparative contracts, money and stats wise...those were both terrible contracts!?!? Why would anyone want to replicate those disasters?
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In comment 15899083 ajr2456 said:
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It’s looking possible that Goff could be cut or Carr cut/traded.
Goff at $10 million is probably better for the Giants than Jones at $25 million. If Carr got cut (don’t see anyone trading significant capital for him with that contract) Carr at $15-$20 million on a 1-2 year deal is probably also better than signing Jones at $25 million.
Both would provide similar production at less money while allowing the Giants the ability to find their next QB if they can’t draft one this year.
Neither Goff or Carr are signing anywhere for 10m. The economics of the QB position is either your getting 30+ million a year to be a starter or around 8-10m to hold a clipboard.
Also both of those QB's as well as DJ are above average in QBR. Vegas can save 30m by cutting carr, detroit saves 20m by cutting Goff, but are either of those teams going to replace that production and how much does it cost? This is a terrible year to need a QB and have a top pick in the draft
They’re both going to be picking at the top of the draft as of now?
Houston, Carolina are currently 1-2 and both need qb's. Also I'd be willing to bet they would be better keeping their respective qb's and adding weapons around them, or doing something to protect them by either getting them a better line or defense so they don't have to score as many points
Also there is zero guarantee the rookie qb's are going to be any better and top draft pick rookies count 7-8 million against the cap so in detroits case are they better off with a rookie qb and 12-13m for a weapon or keeping goff and drafting a weapon for 7-8m
We’re never going to be able to have logical conversation about QBs here if the tales are going to be “well the Lions don’t know if a rookie is going to be better than Jared Goff, so they might as well keep him”.
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In comment 15898732 Sean said:
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Group 1: It would set the team back if Jones isn’t the guy and the Giants need to reset at the position.
Group 2: it would set the team back if the Giants overpay for Jones and have a detrimental impact on the rest of the team.
This is why this decision is so fascinating.
Group 3: Jones isn't good enough to be considered a franchise QB.
I'm 3...then 2. I've seen nothing that makes me think Jones is a franchise QB. He's better this year, but he's average at best. Definitely not worth $30ish million a year. If they resign him, it should be for $15 million a year, for one year, or less.
Draft a rookie and use the extra money to build a better roster. There's a lot of QBs that can throw for 170 yards a game and 1 TD.
Not to keep quoting you after yesterday, and I actually agree with you that DJ is not a "franchise" qb. But franchise Qb's are getting 45-50m a year and average starters are getting 30m. So as much as I agree with you, the current qb market is that 30 = average. And although that sounds like a scary number as salary caps are increasing, its a drop in the hat.
Also, I don't believe this is a good qb draft, and Jones might make a better stop gap then drafting a severely raw talent at QB and trying to make chicken salad. I don't know if I can stomach another 4 win year even with a rookie qb.
We’re never going to be able to have logical conversation about QBs here if the tales are going to be “well the Lions don’t know if a rookie is going to be better than Jared Goff, so they might as well keep him”.
Davis Mills is 30th in QBR, you can't get much worse than that.
Carr is 10th
Goff is 13th
The bar of average qb performance is lower than it was in years past. Your comparing replacing a bottom 3rd qb, vs middle tier, so thats not even a valid comparison.
There aren't an unlimited amount of talented qb's in the draft. They can absolutely do worse with the wrong pick. And instead of forcing a qb at 5, they likely have options that can make the entire team better.
That's the tactic most exercised by the Jones crowd - unless someone can guarantee a replacement can be better than Jones, why make the change?
Of course, that's impossible to guarantee. But the odds are very high that there are prospects in this draft more physically gifted than Jones.
You see, it's much easier to teach someone the mental side of the side because the physical side is just God given. You can't teach someone how to scramble, avoid tacklers, and then throw strikes down the field for big off-script players. And that's a big, big part of today's game - off script ability.
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other than the already mocked comment on dangerous receivers. Our best receiver is a guy we almost cut before the season started and he took a paycut to vet minimum.
DJ is halfway between "a" guy and "the" guy. And he probably always will be. How close he is to "the" guy depends on how many of them you think there are in the league. I would say 5 to 10 at any give time.
People who think we have a shot of getting DJ on a 2 year deal (unless it is 2 years $70MM guaranteed) are kidding themselves. Given cap inflation, previous contracts, and the paucity of "the" guy in the NFL, he is going to get paid at least 4/100 and probably more like 5/150. That is if the year goes as it has.
I would suggest the number of "bad throws" if it is a rate of 25 per 200, is not a problem. Even Brady or Rogers are probably 10 to 15 per 200. Almost everybody else good is in that 25 or even higher range. That is just my guess, no research. Don't know what the stats across the league say.
Bottom line is that it is impossible for anyone not on the coaching staff to have a meaningful opinion. We don't know how much tailoring they are doing. We don't know if he is missing reads or if he is executing what they want. Maybe most important, which seems not to get discussed much, we don't know if some of the problems we think we see are correctable with more time in the offense. Daboll and Kafka know the answers to all those questions (or at least the first two). I am OK if they let him go and he signs elsewhere for a middling deal. I am OK if they sign him for 5/200 with a good structure, because they know 1,000% more than me or anyone else on this board. But I have to admit I like him and hope we keep him.
Nobody us giving DJ a 4 year deal. Why would they? Everyone else that gets big deals have out up franchinmse QB type numbers at least once in their career. DJ has never looked, or produced, like a franchise QB...ever! Thus idea that any team, other that maybe Washington (and look at their track records with QBs), will want to sign an unproductive QB to a longterm deal is nonsense.
It's funny...the Jones fanboys quote Tennehill and Wentz as comparative contracts, money and stats wise...those were both terrible contracts!?!? Why would anyone want to replicate those disasters?
Don’t you mean Giants fan boys? Pretty certain most of us who hope Daniel turns out to be the guy are Giants fans first.
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“ I came across 30 plays over the first eight games where Jones had receivers running open downfield only to see him pull the ball down and either scramble or opt for a short pass instead. In particular, the Week 8 loss to the Seattle Seahawks, there were five different instances where the Giants had Darius Slayton or Wan’Dale Robinson open downfield for big gains or potential touchdowns, only for Jones to opt for shorter passes.”
Even if say half of those long passes are incomplete, those are a lot of long plays to leave on the table.
This was another made up piece of bullshit. He does admit later that he has no idea what the play design or was progression is or how he is being coached to read it out. He also admits that some might be clear out routs where there is no read to throw it to the receiver.
When jones misses a read we have the same 8 assholes screaming In Every thread for a week. There was near hysteria this week because Jones missed 2 possibly (I disagree on the tanner on the goal line). He is claiming Jones misses 4-5 deep shots per week? We don’t even take that many in a week. It’s absurd.
Any way 30 is just a stupid number that has no footing in reality.
And yes of course he misses some reads just like every single qb in every game.
For those who really think DJ is missing 4-5 deep shots/week, he is an inaccurate passer, throws behind the receivers, thinks slow and doesn't see the field, don't you think Schoen, Daboll and Kafka sees them in game films every week if it is true? Don't you think they know more than you and I do at what DJ is doing in games? And if you believe in Schoen, Daboll and the coaching staff do you really think they will keep DJ if he is as bad as you say he is? Or that they will keep DJ because DJ is better than what we think he is. I think if he was missing that many open receivers per game because as you say he don't see them or afraid to throw down field or making bad decisions or isn't the QB long term then I trust Schoen and Daboll to change QB mid season but they haven't or at the end of the season. But since they have not changed QB don't you think you should trust their judgement also. All said and done, DJ will be gone if he sucked that much as all you naysayer are saying. I heard all the negatives about Phil Simms and Eli and yet we won two SB with each of them. After the first year with DJ, all I heard was how good he was with 24/12 TD to Int ratio and everyone calling him Danny Dimes. His only drawback was his fumbling. Then year 2 and 3 came with one of the worst coaching staff for DJ or for a Giant team for that matter. That is why I don't count years 2 and 3 against him. Just throw it out. Now with a true coaching staff and GM, DJ seems to be playing a hell of a lot better with limited weapons. So if he truely is a piece of shit, I trust Schoen will get rid of him but I don't think he is and only Schoen's opinion matters.
But watch. If jones is on the team next year the DJCB will insist it was Maras meddling
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In comment 15898801 mfjmfj said:
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other than the already mocked comment on dangerous receivers. Our best receiver is a guy we almost cut before the season started and he took a paycut to vet minimum.
DJ is halfway between "a" guy and "the" guy. And he probably always will be. How close he is to "the" guy depends on how many of them you think there are in the league. I would say 5 to 10 at any give time.
People who think we have a shot of getting DJ on a 2 year deal (unless it is 2 years $70MM guaranteed) are kidding themselves. Given cap inflation, previous contracts, and the paucity of "the" guy in the NFL, he is going to get paid at least 4/100 and probably more like 5/150. That is if the year goes as it has.
I would suggest the number of "bad throws" if it is a rate of 25 per 200, is not a problem. Even Brady or Rogers are probably 10 to 15 per 200. Almost everybody else good is in that 25 or even higher range. That is just my guess, no research. Don't know what the stats across the league say.
Bottom line is that it is impossible for anyone not on the coaching staff to have a meaningful opinion. We don't know how much tailoring they are doing. We don't know if he is missing reads or if he is executing what they want. Maybe most important, which seems not to get discussed much, we don't know if some of the problems we think we see are correctable with more time in the offense. Daboll and Kafka know the answers to all those questions (or at least the first two). I am OK if they let him go and he signs elsewhere for a middling deal. I am OK if they sign him for 5/200 with a good structure, because they know 1,000% more than me or anyone else on this board. But I have to admit I like him and hope we keep him.
Nobody us giving DJ a 4 year deal. Why would they? Everyone else that gets big deals have out up franchinmse QB type numbers at least once in their career. DJ has never looked, or produced, like a franchise QB...ever! Thus idea that any team, other that maybe Washington (and look at their track records with QBs), will want to sign an unproductive QB to a longterm deal is nonsense.
It's funny...the Jones fanboys quote Tennehill and Wentz as comparative contracts, money and stats wise...those were both terrible contracts!?!? Why would anyone want to replicate those disasters?
Don’t you mean Giants fan boys? Pretty certain most of us who hope Daniel turns out to be the guy are Giants fans first.
You can be a Giants fan, hope DJ keeps doing the what he's doing to keep winning games, hope the Giants keep playing great defense, hope Saquon stays healthy (because DJ will look terrible if SB gets hurt), and hope the Giants keep winning....and not hope the Giants waste anymore time and money on an average QB next year.
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In comment 15898736 Producer said:
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In comment 15898732 Sean said:
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Group 1: It would set the team back if Jones isn’t the guy and the Giants need to reset at the position.
Group 2: it would set the team back if the Giants overpay for Jones and have a detrimental impact on the rest of the team.
This is why this decision is so fascinating.
Group 3: Jones isn't good enough to be considered a franchise QB.
I'm 3...then 2. I've seen nothing that makes me think Jones is a franchise QB. He's better this year, but he's average at best. Definitely not worth $30ish million a year. If they resign him, it should be for $15 million a year, for one year, or less.
Draft a rookie and use the extra money to build a better roster. There's a lot of QBs that can throw for 170 yards a game and 1 TD.
Not to keep quoting you after yesterday, and I actually agree with you that DJ is not a "franchise" qb. But franchise Qb's are getting 45-50m a year and average starters are getting 30m. So as much as I agree with you, the current qb market is that 30 = average. And although that sounds like a scary number as salary caps are increasing, its a drop in the hat.
Also, I don't believe this is a good qb draft, and Jones might make a better stop gap then drafting a severely raw talent at QB and trying to make chicken salad. I don't know if I can stomach another 4 win year even with a rookie qb.
What about below average QBs? His play may be average but his stats are way below average.
The pain is coming again for this franchise regardless...DJ isn't winning a Super Bowl no matter how long you keep him. Might as well get a rookie in here and see what he can become. I can take another 4 win season if it means eventually becoming a SB contender...I don't see the point of trying to sneak into the playoffs with no chance of winning a SB.
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In comment 15898730 BigBlue565358 said:
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read his twitter bio. He is a generic fan, not an NFL writer
This is known as the credentials fallacy. He watched every Jones play. Attack his argument, not his background.
Lol. So every soul on the planet who watches some games we need to listen to. Ughhh
Not necessarily, but that doesn't invalidate their viewpoint even if you choose not to read it.