for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Does drafting a Rookie QB reset the rebuild?

JoeyBigBlue : 11/7/2022 10:23 am
I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately, and I wanted to hear opinions on this. While I think Daniel Jones has done a good job this season managing the game but not turning the ball over and playing with limited talent at Wide Receiver, I’m not yet ready to commit 25+ million he will command in the open market.


If we draft a QB in the first round next season (whether by having one drop or by trading up for one), do you believe it sets as back in the rebuild? Is this roster strong enough to compete with a Rookie QB taking leading the way?
No rookie qb in this class is going to out perform Jones  
gtt350 : 11/7/2022 10:29 am : link
of course it would be set us back.
Jones is our QB and i'm glad he is and will be.
Build around him
Is 25 million really that much?  
Ron Johnson : 11/7/2022 10:29 am : link
dumping Golladay gets you half way there.
not just reset but set us back  
Fat Wally : 11/7/2022 10:29 am : link
i'm not ready to throw the towel in on Jones. A new QB will set us back, rarely do they come in and play well instantly. I would rather sign Jones to a 1-2 year deal. If he plays well, extend him, otherwise let him walk.

There is no such thing sa a rebuild  
dancing blue bear : 11/7/2022 10:31 am : link
in the modern NFL

There is a constant state of build.



a rookie qb might buy the coach a year "step back". but the expectation is still to make the playoffs
Not at all  
Jerry in_DC : 11/7/2022 10:32 am : link
Getting the next QB is the start of the rebuild. This team was banked 6 wins and done a good job, but it has long way to go.
how many different ways can we have "We love Jones" threads?  
Producer : 11/7/2022 10:33 am : link
Get creative fellas.

But you have to do better than mawkish, "Daniel Jones is my quarterback"
RE: how many different ways can we have  
JoeyBigBlue : 11/7/2022 10:43 am : link
In comment 15899787 Producer said:
Quote:
Get creative fellas.

But you have to do better than mawkish, "Daniel Jones is my quarterback"



Did you read my post? I specifically said I don’t want to invest 25+ mill on Daniel Jones. Nothing against Jones, the person, but I believe him to be a limited QB that we can’t have sustained success with.
RE: RE: how many different ways can we have  
Producer : 11/7/2022 10:44 am : link
In comment 15899802 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 15899787 Producer said:


Quote:


Get creative fellas.

But you have to do better than mawkish, "Daniel Jones is my quarterback"




Did you read my post? I specifically said I don’t want to invest 25+ mill on Daniel Jones. Nothing against Jones, the person, but I believe him to be a limited QB that we can’t have sustained success with.


It's not a reset. There are no long rebuilds in the NFL. It's not the 80s.
Absolutely not  
Mike from Ohio : 11/7/2022 10:45 am : link
The team has made great strides this year with largely the same talent as last year. There is no reason to believe getting a rookie QB somehow undoes all of that.
Reset? No, the QB position is also part of the rebuild.  
chick310 : 11/7/2022 10:46 am : link
Not pursuing an upgrade to any key position while paying significantly more for it though likely delays and makes the rebuild that much harder.

It's the cornerstone piece  
allstarjim : 11/7/2022 10:46 am : link
of the rebuild.
Did drafting Patrick Mahomes  
allstarjim : 11/7/2022 10:48 am : link
reset the rebuild for the Chiefs?

If you intend to start that rookie QB, and you completely whiff on him, then yes. If he can redshirt, then is prepared and can play and you don't whiff on the player, then no.

Isn’t the tag  
Joe Beckwith : 11/7/2022 10:51 am : link
$45M next year?
And YES, to the question, because he won’t be developed at best til ‘24, and we still need a real C, one of the Gs to be solid, LBs, and multiple WRs; a first rd QB pushes all those down the draft.
But whatever they decide: trust the system.
Maybe Schoen  
giantBCP : 11/7/2022 10:54 am : link
can kick the tires on Trubisky now that Pickett is the starter in Pittsburgh. That can buy him some time until he can get “his guy”.
Jones is on pace for 2,973 yards, 13 passing touchdowns  
widmerseyebrow : 11/7/2022 10:55 am : link
It's not inconceivable a rookie replaces his production.

By comparison, rookie Mac Jones (who many consider to be solid and unspectacular) with crappy receivers had 3800 yards and 22 passing touchdowns.

I'm confident in Schoen and Dabol.
RE: Did drafting Patrick Mahomes  
KDavies : 11/7/2022 10:55 am : link
In comment 15899818 allstarjim said:
Quote:
reset the rebuild for the Chiefs?

If you intend to start that rookie QB, and you completely whiff on him, then yes. If he can redshirt, then is prepared and can play and you don't whiff on the player, then no.


Mahomes sat a year. So is your argument to re-sign Jones for a year, draft a QB and sit him? Or let Jones go, sign a rookie QB, and hope that a rookie QB is as good as one of the best QBs in the league while putting him into the fire right away? I hate to break it to you, but that's extremely unlikely to happen.
I hate these discussions because you  
jvm52106 : 11/7/2022 10:56 am : link
get two sides- the one side that acts like they are smarter than everyone else with their get a QB for the franchise blah blah blah but ignore that to do so would require a lot of our "draft capital" now and in the future, thus the weak roster stays WEAK!

Even if Jones is not the guy they roll with, then Taylor probably is for a year or maybe we acquire another VET from somewhere else.

This draft class is weak to me at QB (at least right now) unless one falls to us. Either way, they won't be starting for us.

Now, if we start sliding back some draft wise then things take a bit of a different turn.

I think Jones on a shorter term contract, with a rookie draft pick is the best route but trading a ton to move to get a guy kills the momentum of our rebuild as we cannot afford to fill the roster with FA's...
RE: RE: Did drafting Patrick Mahomes  
allstarjim : 11/7/2022 10:56 am : link
In comment 15899837 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 15899818 allstarjim said:


Quote:


reset the rebuild for the Chiefs?

If you intend to start that rookie QB, and you completely whiff on him, then yes. If he can redshirt, then is prepared and can play and you don't whiff on the player, then no.




Mahomes sat a year. So is your argument to re-sign Jones for a year, draft a QB and sit him? Or let Jones go, sign a rookie QB, and hope that a rookie QB is as good as one of the best QBs in the league while putting him into the fire right away? I hate to break it to you, but that's extremely unlikely to happen.


Quite sure I didn't say that.

Tyrod Taylor was signed to a two-year deal for a reason.
NYG will probably have to take a step back..  
Sean : 11/7/2022 10:58 am : link
In order to elevate to Super Bowl contention. The rest of the season will help determine this question, but I don’t think Jones is the guy to lead a Super Bowl window.
RE: I hate these discussions because you  
jvm52106 : 11/7/2022 10:58 am : link
In comment 15899839 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
get two sides- the one side that acts like they are smarter than everyone else with their get a QB for the franchise blah blah blah but ignore that to do so would require a lot of our "draft capital" now and in the future, thus the weak roster stays WEAK!

Even if Jones is not the guy they roll with, then Taylor probably is for a year or maybe we acquire another VET from somewhere else.

This draft class is weak to me at QB (at least right now) unless one falls to us. Either way, they won't be starting for us.

Now, if we start sliding back some draft wise then things take a bit of a different turn.

I think Jones on a shorter term contract, with a rookie draft pick is the best route but trading a ton to move to get a guy kills the momentum of our rebuild as we cannot afford to fill the roster with FA's...


The second side (sorry posted before I wanted to)

sees Jones as the answer no matter what and believes $30 mil and more is the price range.

I think Jones is our best "bridge loan" option while still competing- like a Tannehill or Jimmy G or even Alex Smith back in the day. BUt, we need one more full draft class to fill up our roster before acquiring the next young QB- unless they fall to our spot.
RE: RE: RE: Did drafting Patrick Mahomes  
KDavies : 11/7/2022 11:00 am : link
In comment 15899840 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 15899837 KDavies said:


Quote:


In comment 15899818 allstarjim said:


Quote:


reset the rebuild for the Chiefs?

If you intend to start that rookie QB, and you completely whiff on him, then yes. If he can redshirt, then is prepared and can play and you don't whiff on the player, then no.




Mahomes sat a year. So is your argument to re-sign Jones for a year, draft a QB and sit him? Or let Jones go, sign a rookie QB, and hope that a rookie QB is as good as one of the best QBs in the league while putting him into the fire right away? I hate to break it to you, but that's extremely unlikely to happen.



Quite sure I didn't say that.

Tyrod Taylor was signed to a two-year deal for a reason.


Taylor is a significant downgrade to Jones. A rookie QB may be good, or a complete bust.
RE: I hate these discussions because you  
JoeyBigBlue : 11/7/2022 11:00 am : link
In comment 15899839 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
get two sides- the one side that acts like they are smarter than everyone else with their get a QB for the franchise blah blah blah but ignore that to do so would require a lot of our "draft capital" now and in the future, thus the weak roster stays WEAK!

Even if Jones is not the guy they roll with, then Taylor probably is for a year or maybe we acquire another VET from somewhere else.

This draft class is weak to me at QB (at least right now) unless one falls to us. Either way, they won't be starting for us.

Now, if we start sliding back some draft wise then things take a bit of a different turn.

I think Jones on a shorter term contract, with a rookie draft pick is the best route but trading a ton to move to get a guy kills the momentum of our rebuild as we cannot afford to fill the roster with FA's...


Jones with a Rookie QB behind him is a disaster waiting to happen. Either you commit to Jones or you don’t. Having a rookie QB behind Jones will make life miserable for Jones as he will have to answer questions for every mistake he makesZ
Agree with Jerry  
JonC : 11/7/2022 11:00 am : link
Finding the right QB is the key to the whole thing about sustained success. You get short windows in the NFL, if this one closes you work on preparing for the next one and the QB will be in his prime. Don't be scared, find the right QB.
RE: I hate these discussions because you  
KDavies : 11/7/2022 11:01 am : link
In comment 15899839 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
get two sides- the one side that acts like they are smarter than everyone else with their get a QB for the franchise blah blah blah but ignore that to do so would require a lot of our "draft capital" now and in the future, thus the weak roster stays WEAK!

Even if Jones is not the guy they roll with, then Taylor probably is for a year or maybe we acquire another VET from somewhere else.

This draft class is weak to me at QB (at least right now) unless one falls to us. Either way, they won't be starting for us.

Now, if we start sliding back some draft wise then things take a bit of a different turn.

I think Jones on a shorter term contract, with a rookie draft pick is the best route but trading a ton to move to get a guy kills the momentum of our rebuild as we cannot afford to fill the roster with FA's...


This is the correct answer IMO. Re-sign Jones, and look to upgrade if possible. Hedges the bets and protects against the immense downside if you go all-in on a rookie 1st rounder and he busts.
One way to go  
allstarjim : 11/7/2022 11:05 am : link
Would be to sign DJ to a 1-year prove it deal. At this point, I would still be looking to identify a QB in the draft I think can be the future.

If DJ walks, that's fine. I would sign another QB for competition with Tyrod and be a backup while my rookie redshirts. There are a lot of interesting names out there. Jacoby Brissett would be the higher-end I'd be looking at, Gardner Minshew on the lower end.
RE: RE: I hate these discussions because you  
Producer : 11/7/2022 11:06 am : link
In comment 15899858 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 15899839 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


get two sides- the one side that acts like they are smarter than everyone else with their get a QB for the franchise blah blah blah but ignore that to do so would require a lot of our "draft capital" now and in the future, thus the weak roster stays WEAK!

Even if Jones is not the guy they roll with, then Taylor probably is for a year or maybe we acquire another VET from somewhere else.

This draft class is weak to me at QB (at least right now) unless one falls to us. Either way, they won't be starting for us.

Now, if we start sliding back some draft wise then things take a bit of a different turn.

I think Jones on a shorter term contract, with a rookie draft pick is the best route but trading a ton to move to get a guy kills the momentum of our rebuild as we cannot afford to fill the roster with FA's...



This is the correct answer IMO. Re-sign Jones, and look to upgrade if possible. Hedges the bets and protects against the immense downside if you go all-in on a rookie 1st rounder and he busts.


If they don't think Jones is the guy, rip off the band aid and find some higher ceiling rookie to take his place.
RE: No rookie qb in this class is going to out perform Jones  
Blueworm : 11/7/2022 11:08 am : link
In comment 15899775 gtt350 said:
Quote:
of course it would be set us back.
Jones is our QB and i'm glad he is and will be.
Build around him


No rookie Qb is going to produce 15-18 TD?
RE: RE: RE: I hate these discussions because you  
KDavies : 11/7/2022 11:09 am : link
In comment 15899870 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15899858 KDavies said:


Quote:


In comment 15899839 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


get two sides- the one side that acts like they are smarter than everyone else with their get a QB for the franchise blah blah blah but ignore that to do so would require a lot of our "draft capital" now and in the future, thus the weak roster stays WEAK!

Even if Jones is not the guy they roll with, then Taylor probably is for a year or maybe we acquire another VET from somewhere else.

This draft class is weak to me at QB (at least right now) unless one falls to us. Either way, they won't be starting for us.

Now, if we start sliding back some draft wise then things take a bit of a different turn.

I think Jones on a shorter term contract, with a rookie draft pick is the best route but trading a ton to move to get a guy kills the momentum of our rebuild as we cannot afford to fill the roster with FA's...



This is the correct answer IMO. Re-sign Jones, and look to upgrade if possible. Hedges the bets and protects against the immense downside if you go all-in on a rookie 1st rounder and he busts.



If they don't think Jones is the guy, rip off the band aid and find some higher ceiling rookie to take his place.


Giants are 6-2. It is not likely they are going to have a top 5 or top 10 pick where they will have their pick. They will be lucky to be in a position to pick their 4th or 5th ranked QB
RE: RE: RE: RE: Did drafting Patrick Mahomes  
allstarjim : 11/7/2022 11:13 am : link
In comment 15899853 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 15899840 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 15899837 KDavies said:


Quote:


In comment 15899818 allstarjim said:


Quote:


reset the rebuild for the Chiefs?

If you intend to start that rookie QB, and you completely whiff on him, then yes. If he can redshirt, then is prepared and can play and you don't whiff on the player, then no.




Mahomes sat a year. So is your argument to re-sign Jones for a year, draft a QB and sit him? Or let Jones go, sign a rookie QB, and hope that a rookie QB is as good as one of the best QBs in the league while putting him into the fire right away? I hate to break it to you, but that's extremely unlikely to happen.



Quite sure I didn't say that.

Tyrod Taylor was signed to a two-year deal for a reason.



Taylor is a significant downgrade to Jones. A rookie QB may be good, or a complete bust.


Your frame of reference is only the last 8 games for Jones. I wouldn't be so quick to say that. You haven't seen Tyrod really in the Daboll/Kafka system. Tyrod Taylor happens to have a winning record as a starter in the NFL after 52 career starts. That's more than you can say for Daniel Jones in 45 career starts, despite the current 6-2 record for this year.

I don't think anyone really knows outside of One Giant Way what they have with Tyrod Taylor. I'm sure most of us would be saying the same thing you just said about Geno Smith if he was still the back up here.

One thing is certain, his style of play compares favorably to Jones.

Can he be as effective in the offense? We would have to see, but I wouldn't have all my eggs in that basket anyway.

As far as your comment about a rookie QB...that is always the case. But that doesn't mean you don't try. Championships are one in this era by great QBs. More importantly, perennial Super Bowl contenders all have that superstar QB leading them. You don't have that, then you keep looking until you do.

I have watched plenty of Tyrod Taylor  
KDavies : 11/7/2022 11:16 am : link
he is a significant downgrade. I don't know how much one must hate Jones to not even acknowledge this simple fact
RE: RE: RE: RE: I hate these discussions because you  
Producer : 11/7/2022 11:17 am : link
In comment 15899875 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 15899870 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15899858 KDavies said:


Quote:


In comment 15899839 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


get two sides- the one side that acts like they are smarter than everyone else with their get a QB for the franchise blah blah blah but ignore that to do so would require a lot of our "draft capital" now and in the future, thus the weak roster stays WEAK!

Even if Jones is not the guy they roll with, then Taylor probably is for a year or maybe we acquire another VET from somewhere else.

This draft class is weak to me at QB (at least right now) unless one falls to us. Either way, they won't be starting for us.

Now, if we start sliding back some draft wise then things take a bit of a different turn.

I think Jones on a shorter term contract, with a rookie draft pick is the best route but trading a ton to move to get a guy kills the momentum of our rebuild as we cannot afford to fill the roster with FA's...



This is the correct answer IMO. Re-sign Jones, and look to upgrade if possible. Hedges the bets and protects against the immense downside if you go all-in on a rookie 1st rounder and he busts.



If they don't think Jones is the guy, rip off the band aid and find some higher ceiling rookie to take his place.



Giants are 6-2. It is not likely they are going to have a top 5 or top 10 pick where they will have their pick. They will be lucky to be in a position to pick their 4th or 5th ranked QB


You don't need a top-5 pick to draft a better QB, if you have come to the conclusion that Jones is not the guy.
No  
AcesUp : 11/7/2022 11:18 am : link
If you identify the guy that can run the high powered sports car version of your offense, you strike without hesitation. But if the only thing available to you is a f'n Miata, then maybe you have to stick with the Camry for another year or two. We'll see what happens but if the Giants find themselves in the situation the Chiefs did when Mahomes dropped out of the top 10 or recently the Bears did with Fields, you move future picks to get that guy. Would have to be a tools guy though, I'm not trading in the Jones for another Jones just because he's cheaper. You'd just be giving yourself another 3-4 window instead of shooting for that franchise altering guy.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I hate these discussions because you  
allstarjim : 11/7/2022 11:20 am : link
In comment 15899875 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 15899870 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15899858 KDavies said:


Quote:


In comment 15899839 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


get two sides- the one side that acts like they are smarter than everyone else with their get a QB for the franchise blah blah blah but ignore that to do so would require a lot of our "draft capital" now and in the future, thus the weak roster stays WEAK!

Even if Jones is not the guy they roll with, then Taylor probably is for a year or maybe we acquire another VET from somewhere else.

This draft class is weak to me at QB (at least right now) unless one falls to us. Either way, they won't be starting for us.

Now, if we start sliding back some draft wise then things take a bit of a different turn.

I think Jones on a shorter term contract, with a rookie draft pick is the best route but trading a ton to move to get a guy kills the momentum of our rebuild as we cannot afford to fill the roster with FA's...



This is the correct answer IMO. Re-sign Jones, and look to upgrade if possible. Hedges the bets and protects against the immense downside if you go all-in on a rookie 1st rounder and he busts.



If they don't think Jones is the guy, rip off the band aid and find some higher ceiling rookie to take his place.



Giants are 6-2. It is not likely they are going to have a top 5 or top 10 pick where they will have their pick. They will be lucky to be in a position to pick their 4th or 5th ranked QB


I'm not sure the point of this post. Where they pick isn't important. They may be able to identify a QB they really like at their spot. Atlanta did in the 3rd round last year with Desmond Ridder. Lamar Jackson drafted 32. Dak was what, a 4th rounder? Mahomes was picked 10th, Rodgers 24th, and on and on.

The Bears moved up 11 spots not too long ago to get Fields. You do what you need to do.
RE: RE: No rookie qb in this class is going to out perform Jones  
PatersonPlank : 11/7/2022 11:20 am : link
In comment 15899873 Blueworm said:
Quote:
In comment 15899775 gtt350 said:


Quote:


of course it would be set us back.
Jones is our QB and i'm glad he is and will be.
Build around him



No rookie Qb is going to produce 15-18 TD?


Not unless they change the offense.
Have to get the QB right......most important position in the NFL.....  
Simms11 : 11/7/2022 11:23 am : link
I think Jones is a guy they could still win with, however I don’t think he’s a guy that can get us back to a super Bowl and win another championship with. At best he’s an average starting QB. We could do better, but probably won’t be in a position to do so next Draft. That said, there’s been plenty of examples of QBs being drafted later first, second, third or later in drafts that have been extremely successful. Hitting on those however might be one of the hardest things for a GM to do. Anyway, a new QB would set us back at least for a year maybe more, depending on how the QB advances. I think the fan base could except that if the guy shows promise.
um...  
KDavies : 11/7/2022 11:23 am : link
where you pick is actually important to getting the QB you want. There are likely a number of QBs the Giants will never have an opportunity to draft, no matter how high they try and trade up.
RE: No rookie qb in this class is going to out perform Jones  
bw in dc : 11/7/2022 11:26 am : link
In comment 15899775 gtt350 said:
Quote:
of course it would be set us back.
Jones is our QB and i'm glad he is and will be.
Build around him


There isn't?

There are QB prospects in the 2023 class more physically gifted than Jones. And it's not like Jones processes the game ala Brady or Montana.

So, we wouldn't be losing this physically gifted-phenom who thinks the game like he has a PhD in football.

This idea that Jones is not disposable because no one can guarantee a "sure thing" replacement is one of the sillier notions on this board.
RE: I have watched plenty of Tyrod Taylor  
allstarjim : 11/7/2022 11:27 am : link
In comment 15899900 KDavies said:
Quote:
he is a significant downgrade. I don't know how much one must hate Jones to not even acknowledge this simple fact


I've watched a lot of Geno Smith. He would be a significant downgrade. Oh wait.

It is not a simple fact. In camp, by reports Tyrod was running the offense more efficiently. Regardless, we haven't seen him in this offense.

At any rate, I don't hate DJ at all. I am simply not sold he is the long-term answer. I think that question is mostly incomplete. I want to see more. I am skeptical, and it's regrettable that he doesn't have better weapons around him, but I don't see the franchise guy that can make this team a perennial contender, not yet at least.

He's played pretty well. As much as you love Jones as the Giants' QB, how much would you love it if Patrick Mahomes was our QB?

I know that's a pretty high standard, but if you shoot for that and you miss but get close, it's still pretty good.
RE: um...  
allstarjim : 11/7/2022 11:32 am : link
In comment 15899927 KDavies said:
Quote:
where you pick is actually important to getting the QB you want. There are likely a number of QBs the Giants will never have an opportunity to draft, no matter how high they try and trade up.


First of all, KDavies, it's pointless to talk about where they will be drafting because none of us know. Second of all, this is shaping up to possibly be a QB rich draft, which bodes well for picking a real talent later than expected.

Third of all, they can trade up all the way to #1 overall for all we know on November 7th. Since we don't know what the final record will be or where the Giants will draft, it's not even something worth talking about this early.

But your close-mindedness to all the options being on the table is noted.
RE: RE: I have watched plenty of Tyrod Taylor  
KDavies : 11/7/2022 11:36 am : link
In comment 15899938 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 15899900 KDavies said:


Quote:


he is a significant downgrade. I don't know how much one must hate Jones to not even acknowledge this simple fact



I've watched a lot of Geno Smith. He would be a significant downgrade. Oh wait.

It is not a simple fact. In camp, by reports Tyrod was running the offense more efficiently. Regardless, we haven't seen him in this offense.

At any rate, I don't hate DJ at all. I am simply not sold he is the long-term answer. I think that question is mostly incomplete. I want to see more. I am skeptical, and it's regrettable that he doesn't have better weapons around him, but I don't see the franchise guy that can make this team a perennial contender, not yet at least.

He's played pretty well. As much as you love Jones as the Giants' QB, how much would you love it if Patrick Mahomes was our QB?

I know that's a pretty high standard, but if you shoot for that and you miss but get close, it's still pretty good.


I don't know that I "love" Jones as the Giants QB. I think he is a good QB. I don't dispute the Giants should look for an upgrade if one is available to them.

I would look to re-sign Jones. If there is a QB that they love in the draft that they are in a position to take, I am all for that. But I'd keep Jones to give the other QB time to develop/hedge their bets if the new QB doesn't work out. If they hit the lottery on a Mahomes type, there won't be an issue trading Jones.
RE: No rookie qb in this class is going to out perform Jones  
GMen72 : 11/7/2022 11:37 am : link
In comment 15899775 gtt350 said:
Quote:
of course it would be set us back.
Jones is our QB and i'm glad he is and will be.
Build around him


Immediately or longterm? Yes, there will be a learning curve, but longterm it won't be hard to replace Jones' production. Jones is not a Super Bowl QB. If you're a fan of 8-9, 9-8, and 1 and done playoff appearances, DJ is your man.

Rip the bandaid off and get a Super Bowl caliber QB, the quicker you get him, the faster the rebuild happens. This team has a very low ceiling with DJ.
RE: not just reset but set us back  
GMen72 : 11/7/2022 11:39 am : link
In comment 15899779 Fat Wally said:
Quote:
i'm not ready to throw the towel in on Jones. A new QB will set us back, rarely do they come in and play well instantly. I would rather sign Jones to a 1-2 year deal. If he plays well, extend him, otherwise let him walk.



You don't want to regress next year but you're willing to waste 2 more years on Jones, then regress?
RE: RE: um...  
KDavies : 11/7/2022 11:40 am : link
In comment 15899966 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 15899927 KDavies said:


Quote:


where you pick is actually important to getting the QB you want. There are likely a number of QBs the Giants will never have an opportunity to draft, no matter how high they try and trade up.



First of all, KDavies, it's pointless to talk about where they will be drafting because none of us know. Second of all, this is shaping up to possibly be a QB rich draft, which bodes well for picking a real talent later than expected.

Third of all, they can trade up all the way to #1 overall for all we know on November 7th. Since we don't know what the final record will be or where the Giants will draft, it's not even something worth talking about this early.

But your close-mindedness to all the options being on the table is noted.


I'm hardly close-minded on the Giants long-term future at QB. Again, if Schoen/Daboll find a QB they like and are able to draft him, I am all for it. I hope he is better than Jones and a significant upgrade at the position. What I would do is protect against the downside risk by keeping Jones though. If Schoen/Daboll find a QB they like, and they hit on him, you simply trade Jones for a pick or two.
RE: RE: RE: I hate these discussions because you  
GMen72 : 11/7/2022 11:42 am : link
In comment 15899870 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15899858 KDavies said:


Quote:


In comment 15899839 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


get two sides- the one side that acts like they are smarter than everyone else with their get a QB for the franchise blah blah blah but ignore that to do so would require a lot of our "draft capital" now and in the future, thus the weak roster stays WEAK!

Even if Jones is not the guy they roll with, then Taylor probably is for a year or maybe we acquire another VET from somewhere else.

This draft class is weak to me at QB (at least right now) unless one falls to us. Either way, they won't be starting for us.

Now, if we start sliding back some draft wise then things take a bit of a different turn.

I think Jones on a shorter term contract, with a rookie draft pick is the best route but trading a ton to move to get a guy kills the momentum of our rebuild as we cannot afford to fill the roster with FA's...



This is the correct answer IMO. Re-sign Jones, and look to upgrade if possible. Hedges the bets and protects against the immense downside if you go all-in on a rookie 1st rounder and he busts.



If they don't think Jones is the guy, rip off the band aid and find some higher ceiling rookie to take his place.


Damn! Great minds! Scroll up and read my post. Posted that before I read this. Ha!
RE: RE: RE: um...  
allstarjim : 11/7/2022 11:55 am : link
In comment 15899989 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 15899966 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 15899927 KDavies said:


Quote:


where you pick is actually important to getting the QB you want. There are likely a number of QBs the Giants will never have an opportunity to draft, no matter how high they try and trade up.



First of all, KDavies, it's pointless to talk about where they will be drafting because none of us know. Second of all, this is shaping up to possibly be a QB rich draft, which bodes well for picking a real talent later than expected.

Third of all, they can trade up all the way to #1 overall for all we know on November 7th. Since we don't know what the final record will be or where the Giants will draft, it's not even something worth talking about this early.

But your close-mindedness to all the options being on the table is noted.



I'm hardly close-minded on the Giants long-term future at QB. Again, if Schoen/Daboll find a QB they like and are able to draft him, I am all for it. I hope he is better than Jones and a significant upgrade at the position. What I would do is protect against the downside risk by keeping Jones though. If Schoen/Daboll find a QB they like, and they hit on him, you simply trade Jones for a pick or two.


Jones is not under contract for next year. If you really believe in what you say here, we're pretty much on the same page. Except I think the numbers for what I'd keep Jones at (given performance to date, not just this year, but his Giants' career), would be a lot different than you. I'd be looking at a one-year extension at no more than ~$18M. And preferably closer to $15M. I think you are more in that $30M area and there's no way I would go that far.

I would absolutely spend less than that on Tyrod AND Brissett AND a rookie QB combined than I would DJ at $30M, and then I would use the savings to improve this roster.

That is a gross overpay for DJ given his performance to date.
No..it is part of the rebuild process  
Rick in Dallas : 11/7/2022 11:59 am : link
That's why Tyrod Taylor is signed through the 2023 season.
Look this season's success doesn't hide the fact this roster is very thin on talent in multiple positions.
The QB position will be resolved this offseason
Do we keep DJ or do we draft our next QB in the 2023 draft.
Part of the total rebuild process. This rebuild wasn't going to happen overnight.
Options  
Paul326 : 11/7/2022 12:02 pm : link
The Giants have 3 maybe 4 options with the QB position going forward.
1. Resign DJ to a manageable contract & surround him with a better cast of characters
2. Sign a FA QB from a less than exciting group that will probably cost more money than resigning DJ. Will the extra cost produce higher production?
3. Draft a QB. Many experts are saying the top prospects in this group aren't living up to the preseason hype and the draft capitol needed to get into drafting range will be huge.Mahomes/Allen types come around every 10 years or so.
4. Draft a developmental QB, sign DJ to a 2year deal so he can keep polishing his game and coach up the young guy.
The Brain trust has 9 games left to make the decision they get paid the big bucks to do. Just my 2¢.
allstarjim  
KDavies : 11/7/2022 12:04 pm : link
the difference is that I don't want to go in the draft desperate for a QB. With Jones, you aren't. With the likes of a Taylor or a Brissett, you are.

With Jones, I am perfectly fine with the Giants trading up and getting a guy they like. If there are no QBs available that they love, they have the luxury to pass on one this year. Likely not so with a Taylor. It is worth the extra money to me for Jones for that luxury, his better play than the Taylors of the world, and the fact that he's an additional asset they can trade if they hit on a drafted QB
If coaching was a reason for Jones’  
ajr2456 : 11/7/2022 12:10 pm : link
Lack of success the past few years, how do we know some of these college QBs aren’t being held back by coaching or a system that doesn’t fit what they do?

Oregon held Herbert back, and that’s why he returned to school - costing the Giants a chance at drafting him.
Would Jones sign a 2 year deal with Giants?  
uther99 : 11/7/2022 12:13 pm : link
I mean, DJ is not a sexy QB, but Tannehill got 4 years 118M. Maybe the market for Dj is closer to Mayfield, 4 years 32M.
RE: allstarjim  
Producer : 11/7/2022 12:13 pm : link
In comment 15900067 KDavies said:
Quote:
the difference is that I don't want to go in the draft desperate for a QB. With Jones, you aren't. With the likes of a Taylor or a Brissett, you are.

With Jones, I am perfectly fine with the Giants trading up and getting a guy they like. If there are no QBs available that they love, they have the luxury to pass on one this year. Likely not so with a Taylor. It is worth the extra money to me for Jones for that luxury, his better play than the Taylors of the world, and the fact that he's an additional asset they can trade if they hit on a drafted QB


If you're paying Jones $30M you're already behaving desperately.
RE: No rookie qb in this class is going to out perform Jones  
UConn4523 : 11/7/2022 12:17 pm : link
In comment 15899775 gtt350 said:
Quote:
of course it would be set us back.
Jones is our QB and i'm glad he is and will be.
Build around him


You don't know that.
the defense is not in a rebuild mode  
djm : 11/7/2022 12:23 pm : link
and is one offseason away from a better talent base than the one we are seeing right now and this one aint half bad at all. The OL is one offseason away from a better talent base and again, not half bad even with the injuries. NEal will be a year better. Gates might be all the way back. The 3rd rounder, a year better. BArkley isn't rebuild mode.

What does this crap mean that we were banked 6 wins? They aren't real? We can't win these games next season? WTF are some of you talking about? No one is saying to sell the future right now for a cheap win or two but can we stop dismissing what this team has shown ON THE FIELD this season? It's real.

If Jones is better than any other kid we're going to draft we're going to keep him. The next 9 will tell us even more. IT's a talent debate. Nothing more, especially any nonsense talk that this team isn't ready to win next season. Stop with the stupid.
let's call them what they are  
djm : 11/7/2022 12:27 pm : link
a pretty good team and maybe at times a good team. Above average-- by every metric. Also, a team that came into this season cutting more than what they brought in. Next offseason they won't be cutting more than what the bring in. They will be spenders and adding. They will be re-signing core keepers and looking to steal a FA or two if the money is right. They won't atrophy like they did (slightly) this past off-season.

Jones has to show he's worth the long term or even short term big money. If he shows enough, odds are very high he's back. It's really as simple as that.

Anyone who doesn't understand that  
Red Dog : 11/7/2022 12:28 pm : link
going with a rookie QB will set them back at least four or five years, and also comes with NO GUARANTEE that he will ever be even as good as Jones is right now, should leave this board permanently.
and prepare for the sticker shock  
djm : 11/7/2022 12:31 pm : link
pretty good QBs get paid and there is most definitely a risk in letting that pretty good QB go. Ask Washington if they would rather be "overpaying" Cousins right about now. Of course they would.
RE: allstarjim  
allstarjim : 11/7/2022 12:32 pm : link
In comment 15900067 KDavies said:
Quote:
the difference is that I don't want to go in the draft desperate for a QB. With Jones, you aren't. With the likes of a Taylor or a Brissett, you are.

With Jones, I am perfectly fine with the Giants trading up and getting a guy they like. If there are no QBs available that they love, they have the luxury to pass on one this year. Likely not so with a Taylor. It is worth the extra money to me for Jones for that luxury, his better play than the Taylors of the world, and the fact that he's an additional asset they can trade if they hit on a drafted QB


I'm not going into the draft desperate with Taylor and Brissett. Brissett's doing a pretty good job as game manager for Cleveland holding down the fort for Watson, btw.

Tyrod, again, has a winning record as a starting QB in the NFL.

I'm not saying Taylor is the answer and I'd be comfortable with him going forward. Definitely not. But I'd never force a QB draft pick on a guy I didn't have a conviction on regardless of what I had in the QB room.

Again, based on what I've seen from DJ to this point, I'd welcome him back on a 1-year deal at $15-$18M and if he doesn't sign that, good luck to you, and I'm perfectly comfortable going into the draft and free agency to fill out my QB room.

As I sit today, DJ is not the long-term franchise QB I want, but I am reserving judgement for 9 more games. But since he's not the long-term guy as I sit today, the plan would not include a $30M AAV 1-year or multi-year deal.
RE: Anyone who doesn't understand that  
JoeyBigBlue : 11/7/2022 12:32 pm : link
In comment 15900137 Red Dog said:
Quote:
going with a rookie QB will set them back at least four or five years, and also comes with NO GUARANTEE that he will ever be even as good as Jones is right now, should leave this board permanently.


Sets them back 4 or 5 years? Unless the QB they draft is a complete bust, that isn’t the case. In today’s NFL, rookie QBs come in an play right away. Sure there’s a learning curve but not a 4 or 5 year curve like you are saying.
RE: Anyone who doesn't understand that  
djm : 11/7/2022 12:33 pm : link
In comment 15900137 Red Dog said:
Quote:
going with a rookie QB will set them back at least four or five years, and also comes with NO GUARANTEE that he will ever be even as good as Jones is right now, should leave this board permanently.


No doubt about it. Wanna be fair and give the Giants some odds that they can pull a rabbit out of their hat this april? Round 1-2? Ok fine...the odds are probably 20% chance that they draft a kid that is plug and play ready ala Dak Prescott.

You wanna go with those odds and let Jones walk? There's risk. Yea you can sign 1 more player if you let Jones go, ok fine....you're still starting Zack Wilson every week. And he's in year 2.
RE: Anyone who doesn't understand that  
GMen72 : 11/7/2022 12:34 pm : link
In comment 15900137 Red Dog said:
Quote:
going with a rookie QB will set them back at least four or five years, and also comes with NO GUARANTEE that he will ever be even as good as Jones is right now, should leave this board permanently.


I actually think everyone understands a rookie QB would struggle at first. I think what some/most understand is that this team can't win a Super Bowl with Daniel Jones. So, being stuck in mediocrity is better than the chance of being great? I disagree. The Bills moved off Taylor (same production as DJ) for Allen...do you think they regret that decision at all? Can't make decisions based on fear!
RE: Anyone who doesn't understand that  
allstarjim : 11/7/2022 12:34 pm : link
In comment 15900137 Red Dog said:
Quote:
going with a rookie QB will set them back at least four or five years, and also comes with NO GUARANTEE that he will ever be even as good as Jones is right now, should leave this board permanently.


Ugh. Come back when you have more football knowledge, or do you need the numerous examples showing you that your post is woefully incorrect?
You would need to sell me on this QB class  
larryflower37 : 11/7/2022 12:39 pm : link
I am not sure this is the QB class to build around.
Even the top 3 QBs, which at this point the Giants would have to give up a ton to get them gets me excited about their future in the NFL.
I could be wrong and the FO might love someone coming out and I will have to trust that judgement they obviously know more than most on this board.
I think it's going to be a tough decision for this team to make.
The smart thing that Daboll/Schoen have done is make  
PatersonPlank : 11/7/2022 12:43 pm : link
the offense "non QB" centric. By this I mean unlike the Chiefs/Bills which everything starts with the QB, this offense starts with the running game (and other things). So in theory this makes it easier, and more plug and play, to put in another QB without a major drop off. They did this in Buffalo too, brought in Allen and were able to compete in this style until Allen grew into the full offense they wanted.

I'm not commenting on "moving on from DJ or not" here, I'm just stating a fact. There are variables we don't know that Daboll/Kafka do, such as can Jones run the complete offense. Are they running this to limit Jones mistakes, or are they running this because the IOL and WRs suck so throwing makes no sense (in a sense asking Jones to do less than he can). No one on BBI knows the answer to this, no matter what they say.
There’s 5 or so QBs  
JoeyBigBlue : 11/7/2022 12:44 pm : link
In this draft with first round talent. As long as the coaching staff can get one, I have enough faith in player development that they can coach up said QB. Will this set us back, most likely, but I rather go this route than paying a limited QB in Jones 30+ mill on the salary cap.
RE: Anyone who doesn't understand that  
Sean : 11/7/2022 12:46 pm : link
In comment 15900137 Red Dog said:
Quote:
going with a rookie QB will set them back at least four or five years, and also comes with NO GUARANTEE that he will ever be even as good as Jones is right now, should leave this board permanently.

It’s not 1982 anymore.
RE: The smart thing that Daboll/Schoen have done is make  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/7/2022 12:51 pm : link
In comment 15900176 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
the offense "non QB" centric. By this I mean unlike the Chiefs/Bills which everything starts with the QB, this offense starts with the running game (and other things). So in theory this makes it easier, and more plug and play, to put in another QB without a major drop off. They did this in Buffalo too, brought in Allen and were able to compete in this style until Allen grew into the full offense they wanted.

I'm not commenting on "moving on from DJ or not" here, I'm just stating a fact. There are variables we don't know that Daboll/Kafka do, such as can Jones run the complete offense. Are they running this to limit Jones mistakes, or are they running this because the IOL and WRs suck so throwing makes no sense (in a sense asking Jones to do less than he can). No one on BBI knows the answer to this, no matter what they say.


This was pretty much what most of the good/great HC's strived to do. Support your QB and advance over time. Learn your QB and his capabilities and build the team accordingly.

Somewhere along the line this deviated into you can't get anything accomplished or win a championship unless you get a elite QB where history does not support this.

RE: Did drafting Patrick Mahomes  
BigBlue565358 : 11/7/2022 12:58 pm : link
In comment 15899818 allstarjim said:
Quote:
reset the rebuild for the Chiefs?

If you intend to start that rookie QB, and you completely whiff on him, then yes. If he can redshirt, then is prepared and can play and you don't whiff on the player, then no.

The Chiefs werent rebuilding when the drafted Mahomes. In fact, they went 11-5 in 2015, 12-4 in 2016 (drafted Mahomes in April 2017), and 10-6 in 2017
RE: You would need to sell me on this QB class  
allstarjim : 11/7/2022 12:59 pm : link
In comment 15900167 larryflower37 said:
Quote:
I am not sure this is the QB class to build around.
Even the top 3 QBs, which at this point the Giants would have to give up a ton to get them gets me excited about their future in the NFL.
I could be wrong and the FO might love someone coming out and I will have to trust that judgement they obviously know more than most on this board.
I think it's going to be a tough decision for this team to make.


Yeah I think it's a little knee-jerk to classify this class as bad this early. Long way to go and then the combine. Hooker did not have a good game against a strong Georgia defense. What I saw was that the Georgia secondary was ALL OVER the Tennessee receivers, like white on rice. That's something for all the evaluators to look at, but there's no prospect that you can't find a bad game or two. I know people are naturally going to be down on this class because of the games these guys had and what Richardson has shown this season. But I look more at the tools and overall body of work.

I would love Hooker to drop. I see a ton of things I like in him. I'm not worried about one bad game versus maybe the best defense in the country.

It's going to be fun/interesting to watch the process play out, but this should be a good class at the top. The guy I'm most dubious about is Bryce Young. I'm going to bet he measures at the combine at 5'10" or so. He's listed at 6'0" on Alabama's team site and that college info is always a little generous, lol.

I just don't like my QBs that short, but Russell Wilson proved me wrong. But every time I watch Kyler Murray (5'10") he gets so many balls batted at the line, it's frustrating to watch.

Tua at 6'1" is having a really strong year, to me that might be my minimum, but ideally I want any premium pick I'd invest for a QB to be used on a guy that's at least 6'3".

Stroud is listed at that and he will also likely end up a little shy of that mark. It's not an inflexible rule for me and if I just love the talent and everything else I would draft a 6'0" guy. Probably no shorter, though, but that's just me. Call it the "Drew Brees Line of Demarcation."

But there are going to be very interesting QBs in the upcoming draft that will be drafted outside of the first round. Maybe not so much of the premium can't miss guys at the top, but I think it's going to be a deeper QB class in developmental guys that have projectable traits with exciting film.
RE: RE: um...  
BigBlue565358 : 11/7/2022 1:07 pm : link
In comment 15899966 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 15899927 KDavies said:


Quote:


First of all, KDavies, it's pointless to talk about where they will be drafting because none of us know. Second of all, this is shaping up to possibly be a QB rich draft, which bodes well for picking a real talent later than expected.


A QB rich draft? Who?? Young and Stroud and who else? The rest have been disappointing except for Hooker, who started as a 5th round guy and is now a 2-3rd round guy and does not look like anything close to a franchise QB

If Daboll sees someone that he thinks he can turn into a franchise guy like Allen, the he gets the benefit of the doubt because of Allen

But for sure going with a rookie starting QB next year would be going backwards in the short term

And if you are taking a QB it means not drafting a first round WR, which is a desperate need
It’s November  
ajr2456 : 11/7/2022 1:10 pm : link
Snablats. Nobody knows what this class looks like yet.
ASJ  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/7/2022 1:21 pm : link
I think Young is going to be a multiple time Pro Bowler and if I had to pick a QB from this class capable of winning a SB with a really good team early in his contract he would be it.

I understand the size concerns but so much else to like imv.
RE: Not at all  
Brown_Hornet : 11/7/2022 1:39 pm : link
In comment 15899785 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
Getting the next QB is the start of the rebuild. This team was banked 6 wins and done a good job, but it has long way to go.
Did you just contradict yourself?
RE: Agree with Jerry  
Payasdaddy : 11/7/2022 1:55 pm : link
In comment 15899856 JonC said:
Quote:
Finding the right QB is the key to the whole thing about sustained success. You get short windows in the NFL, if this one closes you work on preparing for the next one and the QB will be in his prime. Don't be scared, find the right QB.


Team is farther ahead of what I thought this summer
Yes, we still need to get a handful of good to very good players to really compete. But i see this team as one more solid draft and a few solid but not crazy FA signing away from being able to compete with most teams in NFC
Sure, a top 10 qb would be great
If things line up you go get one
If not, you get behind jones a couple of years fielding a team with better weapons and see what transpires
Sigh  
Dukie Dimes : 11/7/2022 1:56 pm : link
Some giants fans suck so bad. It does not matter how much Jones does, they will always root against him. They would rather the team lose than do what they are currently doing with him at the helm. So damn pathetic that they consider themselves supporters of this team.

Sometimes I think it would be better if Jones leaves in FA. Then they’ll wake up and see the truth when they suck for the next three years because somehow going out and drafting the next Mahomes doesn’t come about.

What happened to all of the Malik Willis fans from before the last draft? This board is so tiresome.
RE: Sigh  
JoeyBigBlue : 11/7/2022 1:57 pm : link
In comment 15900310 Dukie Dimes said:
Quote:
Some giants fans suck so bad. It does not matter how much Jones does, they will always root against him. They would rather the team lose than do what they are currently doing with him at the helm. So damn pathetic that they consider themselves supporters of this team.

Sometimes I think it would be better if Jones leaves in FA. Then they’ll wake up and see the truth when they suck for the next three years because somehow going out and drafting the next Mahomes doesn’t come about.

What happened to all of the Malik Willis fans from before the last draft? This board is so tiresome.


So we’re are lesser Giants fans because we don’t want to pay a limited QB 25 million plus per year? Got it.
RE: RE: No rookie qb in this class is going to out perform Jones  
gtt350 : 11/7/2022 1:57 pm : link
In comment 15899873 Blueworm said:
Quote:
In comment 15899775 gtt350 said:


Quote:

Being a QB is more than td's, come on man


of course it would be set us back.
Jones is our QB and i'm glad he is and will be.
Build around him



No rookie Qb is going to produce 15-18 TD?
RE: RE: No rookie qb in this class is going to out perform Jones  
nochance : 11/7/2022 1:58 pm : link
In comment 15899873 Blueworm said:
Quote:
In comment 15899775 gtt350 said:


Quote:


of course it would be set us back.
Jones is our QB and i'm glad he is and will be.
Build around him



No rookie Qb is going to produce 15-18 TD?



Not with the WR's the Giants have now
RE: RE: Sigh  
Dukie Dimes : 11/7/2022 2:03 pm : link
In comment 15900314 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 15900310 Dukie Dimes said:


Quote:


Some giants fans suck so bad. It does not matter how much Jones does, they will always root against him. They would rather the team lose than do what they are currently doing with him at the helm. So damn pathetic that they consider themselves supporters of this team.

Sometimes I think it would be better if Jones leaves in FA. Then they’ll wake up and see the truth when they suck for the next three years because somehow going out and drafting the next Mahomes doesn’t come about.

What happened to all of the Malik Willis fans from before the last draft? This board is so tiresome.



So we’re are lesser Giants fans because we don’t want to pay a limited QB 25 million plus per year? Got it.


You’re a lesser giants fan because you don’t support players who are currently on the team and actively root against them. Not you in particular, but many members of the anti-DJ crowd. And don’t try to convince me otherwise. After any bad game, constant threads pop up about him. They even do after good games. Posters are just lurking and waiting for the chance to jump. How is this healthy fan behavior?
RE: Anyone who doesn't understand that  
nochance : 11/7/2022 2:07 pm : link
In comment 15900137 Red Dog said:
Quote:
going with a rookie QB will set them back at least four or five years, and also comes with NO GUARANTEE that he will ever be even as good as Jones is right now, should leave this board permanently.



Plus if we pick the 4th or 5th QB in the next draft then we will probably have the same shit Practice squad receivers we have now. The management didn't know that galliday would turn into a mummy ,sterling shepard go out for the season or toney never play for us again. We NEED a big fast talented receiver
RE: RE: Agree with Jerry  
JonC : 11/7/2022 2:07 pm : link
In comment 15900309 Payasdaddy said:
Quote:
In comment 15899856 JonC said:


Quote:


Finding the right QB is the key to the whole thing about sustained success. You get short windows in the NFL, if this one closes you work on preparing for the next one and the QB will be in his prime. Don't be scared, find the right QB.



Team is farther ahead of what I thought this summer
Yes, we still need to get a handful of good to very good players to really compete. But i see this team as one more solid draft and a few solid but not crazy FA signing away from being able to compete with most teams in NFC
Sure, a top 10 qb would be great
If things line up you go get one
If not, you get behind jones a couple of years fielding a team with better weapons and see what transpires


It depends on how much of the roster Schoen turns over. I expect it to look quite different over the next 2-3 seasons. Average career is 3-4 seasons, turnover is constant, and expect them to build this in their vision.
Yes  
BSIMatt : 11/7/2022 2:13 pm : link
It does.
Does drafting a Rookie QB reset the rebuild?  
Spider43 : 11/7/2022 2:18 pm : link
I believe it does, in Shoen's eyes, at least. Not a reset, per se (because we can still be competitive). But Joe's tenure may be shorter if he retains DJ, and DJ spits the bit. With a rookie QB, Shoen will have several more years of 'grace'.

BUT, if he and Dabbol determine that DJ has enough tools to work with, a QB in the middle rounds might be the happy medium. I think this is the route we're going to go with this spring. I don't think any QB is going to be worth our pick in our range in the first round. And I don't think we'll have enough draft capital to move up either to get our absolute top choice (or Shoen's top choice, at least; I'm wary of the 'top' of this class, been saying that since last year).

Though we still have half a season to play out. So we'll see, I guess.
RE: RE: You would need to sell me on this QB class  
larryflower37 : 11/7/2022 2:31 pm : link
In comment 15900213 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 15900167 larryflower37 said:


Quote:


I am not sure this is the QB class to build around.
Even the top 3 QBs, which at this point the Giants would have to give up a ton to get them gets me excited about their future in the NFL.
I could be wrong and the FO might love someone coming out and I will have to trust that judgement they obviously know more than most on this board.
I think it's going to be a tough decision for this team to make.



Yeah I think it's a little knee-jerk to classify this class as bad this early. Long way to go and then the combine. Hooker did not have a good game against a strong Georgia defense. What I saw was that the Georgia secondary was ALL OVER the Tennessee receivers, like white on rice. That's something for all the evaluators to look at, but there's no prospect that you can't find a bad game or two. I know people are naturally going to be down on this class because of the games these guys had and what Richardson has shown this season. But I look more at the tools and overall body of work.

I would love Hooker to drop. I see a ton of things I like in him. I'm not worried about one bad game versus maybe the best defense in the country.

It's going to be fun/interesting to watch the process play out, but this should be a good class at the top. The guy I'm most dubious about is Bryce Young. I'm going to bet he measures at the combine at 5'10" or so. He's listed at 6'0" on Alabama's team site and that college info is always a little generous, lol.

I just don't like my QBs that short, but Russell Wilson proved me wrong. But every time I watch Kyler Murray (5'10") he gets so many balls batted at the line, it's frustrating to watch.

Tua at 6'1" is having a really strong year, to me that might be my minimum, but ideally I want any premium pick I'd invest for a QB to be used on a guy that's at least 6'3".

Stroud is listed at that and he will also likely end up a little shy of that mark. It's not an inflexible rule for me and if I just love the talent and everything else I would draft a 6'0" guy. Probably no shorter, though, but that's just me. Call it the "Drew Brees Line of Demarcation."

But there are going to be very interesting QBs in the upcoming draft that will be drafted outside of the first round. Maybe not so much of the premium can't miss guys at the top, but I think it's going to be a deeper QB class in developmental guys that have projectable traits with exciting film.


I agree about the depth of this class, there are 6-8 QBs that you could make a case for.
I don't know if the top 3 guys are worth trading up to get but on the backend of the first and later there are some guys to develop.
Hooker might be the guy in the middle of the first but I could also see someone falling in love with him in the top 10.
Penix from Washington and Ward from Washington St are interesting later in the draft too
RE: It’s November  
BigBlue565358 : 11/7/2022 3:11 pm : link
In comment 15900235 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Snablats. Nobody knows what this class looks like yet.

First it was only September, then only October, now it's only November. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean other people can't
To answer the OP  
arniefez : 11/7/2022 3:27 pm : link
yes, highly likely there are a year or two of growing pains with a rookie QB if you've got the right guy. If you miss in a round 1 QB it could derail the entire operation. Heavy decision for the GM and HC when the season ends.
RE: RE: It’s November  
ajr2456 : 11/7/2022 3:38 pm : link
In comment 15900381 BigBlue565358 said:
Quote:
In comment 15900235 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


Snablats. Nobody knows what this class looks like yet.


First it was only September, then only October, now it's only November. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean other people can't


In 2015 on November 2nd, Paxton Lynch was projected to go 6th, and Wentz with the 18th pick in the second round.

On November 9th 2016, Deshone Kizer was projected to go 2nd overall. Watson was projected 15th, Mahomes 25th in some, 81st in others.
RE: RE: RE: Sigh  
allstarjim : 11/7/2022 4:20 pm : link
In comment 15900324 Dukie Dimes said:
Quote:
In comment 15900314 JoeyBigBlue said:


Quote:


In comment 15900310 Dukie Dimes said:


Quote:


Some giants fans suck so bad. It does not matter how much Jones does, they will always root against him. They would rather the team lose than do what they are currently doing with him at the helm. So damn pathetic that they consider themselves supporters of this team.

Sometimes I think it would be better if Jones leaves in FA. Then they’ll wake up and see the truth when they suck for the next three years because somehow going out and drafting the next Mahomes doesn’t come about.

What happened to all of the Malik Willis fans from before the last draft? This board is so tiresome.



So we’re are lesser Giants fans because we don’t want to pay a limited QB 25 million plus per year? Got it.



You’re a lesser giants fan because you don’t support players who are currently on the team and actively root against them. Not you in particular, but many members of the anti-DJ crowd. And don’t try to convince me otherwise. After any bad game, constant threads pop up about him. They even do after good games. Posters are just lurking and waiting for the chance to jump. How is this healthy fan behavior?


Yeah, this is the dumbest narrative on this site right now and that's a high bar to clear.

Nobody who calls themselves a Giants' fan is rooting against Jones. Just stop, that is completely ridiculous. There may be disagreement based on what his performance has been to this point in time about what the best plan is for the franchise going forward.

That is not rooting against the player.
Projected by whom?  
BigBlue565358 : 11/7/2022 4:24 pm : link
You should go back to telling us the Giants should take Willis at #5 or #7

Noticed you were defending Willis last night, then disappeared when he looked worse and worse



Yea it’s called going to bed  
ajr2456 : 11/7/2022 4:33 pm : link
Good attempt at changing the subject after being proven wrong though.
RE: RE: RE: Sigh  
ajr2456 : 11/7/2022 4:35 pm : link
In comment 15900324 Dukie Dimes said:
Quote:

You’re a lesser giants fan because you don’t support players who are currently on the team and actively root against them. Not you in particular, but many members of the anti-DJ crowd. And don’t try to convince me otherwise. After any bad game, constant threads pop up about him. They even do after good games. Posters are just lurking and waiting for the chance to jump. How is this healthy fan behavior?


I don’t think Daniel Jones is the answer. I also spend thousands on season tickets a year and attend every home game I’m able to. Am I a lesser fan than you?
RE: Yea it’s called going to bed  
BigBlue565358 : 11/7/2022 4:52 pm : link
In comment 15900495 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Good attempt at changing the subject after being proven wrong though.

Proven wrong about what? That people that arent me cant project college QBs?

Go back to giving us bad information about Mitchell to the Knicks
Lol what bad information?  
ajr2456 : 11/7/2022 4:59 pm : link
I never said Mitchell was a lock. When the Jazz reporter said it was done, I said it wasn’t. My timeline of the Jazz making a move by Labor Day was correct.

I thought it was going to happen, but I never said it was a guarantee. How’d you get back on here anyway? What’s this username number 4?
RE: Sigh  
Mike from Ohio : 11/7/2022 5:12 pm : link
In comment 15900310 Dukie Dimes said:
Quote:
Some giants fans suck so bad. It does not matter how much Jones does, they will always root against him. They would rather the team lose than do what they are currently doing with him at the helm. So damn pathetic that they consider themselves supporters of this team.

Sometimes I think it would be better if Jones leaves in FA. Then they’ll wake up and see the truth when they suck for the next three years because somehow going out and drafting the next Mahomes doesn’t come about.

What happened to all of the Malik Willis fans from before the last draft? This board is so tiresome.


People like you aren't real Giants fans. You are loyal to a player over the team. You would rather keep Jones and have the Giants lose than win with someone else.

Go root for your Eagles.

Hey! This "you are not a real fan because you have a different opinion on a player than me" is really fun! I see why so many of you trolls do it!
Whose  
ajr2456 : 11/7/2022 5:15 pm : link
Dupe is Dukie Dimes, created after Jones was drafted and only comments on Daniel Jones threads?
RE: RE: It’s November  
chick310 : 11/7/2022 5:44 pm : link
In comment 15900381 BigBlue565358 said:
Quote:
In comment 15900235 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


Snablats. Nobody knows what this class looks like yet.


First it was only September, then only October, now it's only November. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean other people can't


Obviously this is Snablats. Good call there Ajr2456.
Under The Radar Guy  
GiantGrit : 11/7/2022 8:27 pm : link
Who may not meet the physical profile of Daboll & Schoen, but I like very much is Jaren Hall of BYU. He won’t be a 1st round pick either (25 years old). Very live arm, extremely elusive as well. He’s a 6’0 version of Kyler Murray (actually played some baseball at BYU as well) which helps him set his feet before throwing. Not as fast but can certainly move. If you could get him in the 2nd or 3rd round he may be worth the flyer.

2024 with Ewers, Maye and Wiliams looks really good right now but who knows.

Your question was obviously premised towards a 1st round pick, which i believe would not reset the “rebuild” because this team doesn’t necessarily need to rebuild. They have some good young players in place, they certainly need more but I think we’re a step past calling this a rebuild.
I root for DJ  
mpinmaine : 11/7/2022 9:54 pm : link
as I do for all our draft picks.
I think they should draft a QB. It does not have to be in the 1st round, DJ looks kinda good, he is not turning it over this year....
there should be competition for his job however
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Did drafting Patrick Mahomes  
giantstock : 11/7/2022 10:21 pm : link
In comment 15899894 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 15899853 KDavies said:


Quote:




Your frame of reference is only the last 8 games for Jones. I wouldn't be so quick to say that. You haven't seen Tyrod really in the Daboll/Kafka system. Tyrod Taylor happens to have a winning record as a starter in the NFL after 52 career starts. That's more than you can say for Daniel Jones in 45 career starts, despite the current 6-2 record for this year.




I love this post (sarcasm).

So when Jones wins all the Haters say "You can't use wins and loses" to judge Jones.

Yet here we see yet again a hater such as you is quick to bring up Taylor's wins and losses in order to take a dig on Jones.

The hypocrisy from many of you is incredible. And ofc all the posters that get on the "more pro-Jones crowd" for bringing up wins and losses are suddenly silent.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Did drafting Patrick Mahomes  
allstarjim : 11/7/2022 11:56 pm : link
In comment 15900734 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15899894 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 15899853 KDavies said:


Quote:




Your frame of reference is only the last 8 games for Jones. I wouldn't be so quick to say that. You haven't seen Tyrod really in the Daboll/Kafka system. Tyrod Taylor happens to have a winning record as a starter in the NFL after 52 career starts. That's more than you can say for Daniel Jones in 45 career starts, despite the current 6-2 record for this year.






I love this post (sarcasm).

So when Jones wins all the Haters say "You can't use wins and loses" to judge Jones.

Yet here we see yet again a hater such as you is quick to bring up Taylor's wins and losses in order to take a dig on Jones.

The hypocrisy from many of you is incredible. And ofc all the posters that get on the "more pro-Jones crowd" for bringing up wins and losses are suddenly silent.


Hey guy, this is not a dig at DJ at all. Once again, I root for Jones to succeed. That doesn't mean I think Taylor is a significant downgrade. I was responding to a poster who said he was. I merely said that I believe Taylor was signed to potentially be. Abridge QB and that I think that his skillset is similar to Jones, meaning he could possibly run this offense to similar results.

Bringing up DJ's record isn't a dig at him. The wins happened, the losses happened. But it was the other poster who was claiming that Tyrod is a significant downgrade.

Stating that Tyrod has a career winning record, also a fact. Not a dig at Jones, it was simply stating the respect that I have of Taylor as a player. I know he's not a franchise QB, but neither am I convinced DJ is.

I give full credit to DJ, he's shown considerable improvement. But let's face it, he's not shown yet he can compete at the highest level as a passer, which I believe he needs to show by the end of this season to earn the kind of AAV being speculated around here.

And I've always acknowledged that it is a difficult task given the dearth of receiver talent on this team.

In the end a want a QB that consistently puts the Giants in contention. There are QBs that have done that nearly every season of their career. If DJ is that, great. I just don't see it yet.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Did drafting Patrick Mahomes  
giantstock : 11/8/2022 2:37 am : link
In comment 15900757 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 15900734 giantstock said:


Quote:




Hey guy, this is not a dig at DJ at all. Once again, I root for Jones to succeed. That doesn't mean I think Taylor is a significant downgrade. I was responding to a poster who said he was. I merely said that I believe Taylor was signed to potentially be. Abridge QB and that I think that his skillset is similar to Jones, meaning he could possibly run this offense to similar results.

Bringing up DJ's record isn't a dig at him. The wins happened, the losses happened. But it was the other poster who was claiming that Tyrod is a significant downgrade.

Stating that Tyrod has a career winning record, also a fact. Not a dig at Jones, it was simply stating the respect that I have of Taylor as a player. I know he's not a franchise QB, but neither am I convinced DJ is.

I give full credit to DJ, he's shown considerable improvement. But let's face it, he's not shown yet he can compete at the highest level as a passer, which I believe he needs to show by the end of this season to earn the kind of AAV being speculated around here.

And I've always acknowledged that it is a difficult task given the dearth of receiver talent on this team.

In the end a want a QB that consistently puts the Giants in contention. There are QBs that have done that nearly every season of their career. If DJ is that, great. I just don't see it yet.


1—Not meant as a slight, but you haters it appears you don’t understand the phrase. It has nothing to do with you rooting for him etc but it has to do with that you hate his game.

2—If in your mind you are not differentiating much between Taylor and Jones, and Taylor is a backup QB, then how is it that you can say you don’t hate his game if Jones is nothing more than a glorified backup in your mind?

3—You compared Taylor to Jones. It’s right there. You specifically spoke of 52 starts of Taylor vs Jones. You also went on to say Taylor has over a .500 record and implied Jones hasn’t.

So if you are comparing Jones to Taylor then how are you even attempting to suggest that you aren’t “digging on Jones?”

4—When Giants fans bring yup win and loss records you haters come back and say it’s completely irrelevant despite this it is a fact he is 6-2. You bring up Taylor’s record as if it is relevant and claim it is fact – well so have the Giants supporters bring up the fact he is 6-2 this year. Yet you haters then claim it’s irrelevant despite it being a fact.

5—And with your “In the End” comment – it highlights that you hate his game. But I’m not sure when you mention great are you slamming with your “in the end” comment beucase he isn’t “Tom Brady/Josh Allen/Patrick Mahomes.”

That comment that DJ hasn’t shown to be great (or when you say he hasn’t shown to compete as the highest level of a passer”)is an open-ended excuse comment you make. Yes he is not Rodgers/Brady/Mahomes/Allen. This means he is Tyrod Taylor?

But imo you all that hate his game just ne dot come out and say instead of pretending. Everything in your reply to me screams that you think he is a glorified backup. You could be right- he could be that. But please stop with the pretend that you don’t hate his game. Comparing him to Tyrod Taylor screams this. I’ll say again you could be right. But let’s stop the charade that you don’t hate his game.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Did drafting Patrick Mahomes  
giantstock : 11/8/2022 3:22 am : link
In comment 15900766 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15900757 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 15900734 giantstock said:


Quote:
5—And with your “In the End” comment – it highlights that you hate his game. But I’m not sure when you mention great are you slamming with your “in the end” comment beucase he isn’t “Tom Brady/Josh Allen/Patrick Mahomes.”






4—When Giants fans bring yup win and loss records you haters come back and say it’s completely irrelevant despite this it is a fact he is 6-2. You bring up Taylor’s record as if it is relevant and claim it is fact – well so have the Giants supporters bring up the fact he is 6-2 this year. Yet you haters then claim it’s irrelevant despite it being a fact.




I meant to say "Jones supporters" not "Giants supporters."
That's a lot of words  
allstarjim : 11/8/2022 3:39 am : link
That don't say anything of value, with a lot of faulty reasoning leading to errant conclusions.

You say bc I said Taylor has a winning record, you have a problem with that as it relates to Jones? Sounds like you have a problem with Taylor, not that I have a problem with Jones.

Nowhere have I said that Jones' 6-2 record is irrelevant.

It's relevant, and so is a lot of other data points as it relates to Jones.

I don't have full confidence that Jones can be an elite passer. That's all, that's it. I haven't seen it yet, and I'd like to. I hope he lights it up the second half. Clear things up for you?
RE: That's a lot of words  
giantstock : 11/8/2022 4:42 am : link
In comment 15900768 allstarjim said:
Quote:
That don't say anything of value, with a lot of faulty reasoning leading to errant conclusions.

You say bc I said Taylor has a winning record, you have a problem with that as it relates to Jones? Sounds like you have a problem with Taylor, not that I have a problem with Jones.

Nowhere have I said that Jones' 6-2 record is irrelevant.

It's relevant, and so is a lot of other data points as it relates to Jones.

I don't have full confidence that Jones can be an elite passer. That's all, that's it. I haven't seen it yet, and I'd like to. I hope he lights it up the second half. Clear things up for you?


You've given me a lot that I disagree with.

1-- Did you or did you not compare Taylor to Jones? You did.

2--- Did you or did you not use win loss as part of your comparison? You did.

3--- When you compare one player vs another in which it appears you are implying they are about the same, how can it not be considered a dig on Jones?

4-- To paraphrase you use phrases like "Jones can't compete as a high level passer" (unless you are comparing him vs super QB's o "very very good QB's) -- only someone who hates him (his game) and "he isn’t that great" yet- - you're making misleading comparisons by blasting him for not being "Brady/or a level below Burrow" - it just doesn't make sense that you can say you don't hate his game beucase as you put by using the word “compete” - he is “not great.” When you say a guy can’t compete – then in what word is that not a dig? And San Fran has been to a Super Bowl and got to NFC Championsionshp game in recent years. Jones “can’t compete” with Jimmy G. Not saying he is Jimmy G, But can’t compete?

What's faulty is your wording and your belief you aren't digging him.

I didn’t have a problem with YOU using win loss - I have a problem when posters who hate Jones as you do - when it's been brought up of this year win loss record - the haters (not necessary you) suddenly say you can't use it even though it's as you put it "A fact" that Jones is 6-2 this year.

If you could use win loss and state it is a fact (which it is) - then so can Jones supporters use it this year showing he is 6-2. It's not faulty. It's a fact that he is 6-2. If you cna post facts then why can't they? Other posters on this thread and who hate Jones bitch at the Jones supporters for using the 6-2 fact.


 
christian : 11/8/2022 6:24 am : link
You can’t be afraid of taking a small step backward on the journey to several steps forward.

Schoen witnessed this firsthand, when the 9-7 Bills sat at number 21 in the 2018 draft.

If Schoen believes Jones can win a championship, he’ll invest in him. If he doesn’t, he’ll do everything in his power to get a QB he thinks can.
As usual the thread  
section125 : 11/8/2022 6:48 am : link
gets out of hand with the same arguments...

The Giants are more than 1 QB away from serious contention - a lot more. But QB is most important part but not without help. I see that Schoen and Daboll are building the line and making sure the backups can actually play. They will work Gates and Lemieux back into the line to see what they have and if they need to draft OL next year.

They can draft a QB, but if they do not get him viable WRs then it is a moot point. Bellinger looks like he can be the real deal, but Myrick and Hudson are not.

On defense ILB and CB will be needed and interior line is in need of help.

But as to QB, I am pretty certain that Jones will not be returning to the Giants. He is having a decent year, yes. He has improved a lot, but I am not certain it is enough. Tyrod Taylor was brought in for a reason and that was to run the offense if Jones got hurt and then to hold the fort while a rookie QB is developed.
For those that think Taylor would be better than Jones - simple point is he is sitting on the bench. To the point he was running the offense better than Jones in camp - no shit, he knew and ran this offense in Buffalo. That lasted two weeks and it was evident in the games that he was not very good throwing the ball - he was terrible.

I do think they will look at QBs to draft. I do think that they can get a rookie that can run this offense. Daboll and Schoen know what characteristics they need to run their offense and they may be able to find one later in round one. I do not think it will necessarily be one of the supposed top 4 QBs. But it is evident this staff can coach QBs up. They have done a great job with Jones. I do not think they will be afraid of a raw type, like Richardson, that has tools. But that QB must be smart.

I believe they will move on from Jones because $30+ mill can be spent better elsewhere. If Jones had a couple years left on his rookie contract, they may have kept him. But even middle tier QBs are getting huge contracts, and the Giants can not "afford" to pay big money to a middling QB when they have so many other needs.
IF a new QB is drafted high  
fkap : 11/8/2022 9:00 am : link
that means the brass doesn't see DJ as being the future.

Some of you are acting like simply be relevant is good enough. It isn't. Being in the hunt for a SB is the goal.

IF Schoen/Daboll think DJ can get the team to the promised land, they'll do what it takes to keep him, and there'll be no new QB.

IF they think he's good enough for now, they'll stick to a value chart on re-signing him, and then explore drafting another QB. In a perfect storm, they can get DJ on an easy to dump deal AND draft a good prospect.

OR, they're not sold on DJ and move on. 6 months ago, most assumed this was the plan.

Personally, I don't think DJ is playing fantastically better than in the past. The W's are there this year. DJ has been part of the success, but not THE reason. Don't be so blinded by the W's that you over commit to DJ. THAT would be a setback.
RE: IF a new QB is drafted high  
section125 : 11/8/2022 9:20 am : link
In comment 15900844 fkap said:
Quote:

Personally, I don't think DJ is playing fantastically better than in the past. The W's are there this year. DJ has been part of the success, but not THE reason. Don't be so blinded by the W's that you over commit to DJ. THAT would be a setback.


Where I disagree with you is that Jones did lead 5 late game winning drives. That it involved other players like Barkley is not relevant. He was the QB and he led the drives. In one drive, Barkley was injured and not available.
His problem is that games like Seattle cannot happen. That game was winnable and for whatever reason he was off on either his throws or his reads.
He is just too inconsistent to be signed long term at big numbers.
Jones' lows still look like his lows of old  
UConn4523 : 11/8/2022 9:25 am : link
but his highs are more numerous - that's the biggest difference this year. That said that highs don't seem to be high enough and I still need to see a bunch more of them strung together.

He's a solid QB but you can do better. And if you have to do worse on the way to getting there, so be it.
RE: Jones' lows still look like his lows of old  
christian : 11/8/2022 9:41 am : link
In comment 15900857 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
but his highs are more numerous - that's the biggest difference this year. That said that highs don't seem to be high enough and I still need to see a bunch more of them strung together.

He's a solid QB but you can do better. And if you have to do worse on the way to getting there, so be it.


I think that's a very fair observation.

I am not sure why some fans are scared of the prospect of the Giants getting better.

Schoen had a front seat when the Bills traded their left tackle, and ditched a QB with a playoff birth and a pro bowl on his belt, for a college QB with warts.

If there is a QB in the draft they feel they can develop, I hope they do everything in their power to move up and get him.
section  
fkap : 11/8/2022 9:47 am : link
he's led 4th qtr go ahead drives in the past, too. Usually, the D collapsed and gave back the lead. This year, the D is holding up. I pretty much guarantee that if the D were still collapsing and the L's were piling up, the mood on BBI regarding DJ would be vastly different.

He's a decent QB. I just don't think he's made some great leap in ability. Some, sure. You expect that in year 4 and with competent coaching/scheme.
RE: section  
christian : 11/8/2022 9:50 am : link
In comment 15900874 fkap said:
Quote:
he's led 4th qtr go ahead drives in the past, too. Usually, the D collapsed and gave back the lead. This year, the D is holding up. I pretty much guarantee that if the D were still collapsing and the L's were piling up, the mood on BBI regarding DJ would be vastly different.

He's a decent QB. I just don't think he's made some great leap in ability. Some, sure. You expect that in year 4 and with competent coaching/scheme.


That's also a good observation. If the D melts, it's just called a lead change, and no one is congratulating him.
RE: section  
section125 : 11/8/2022 9:56 am : link
In comment 15900874 fkap said:
Quote:
he's led 4th qtr go ahead drives in the past, too. Usually, the D collapsed and gave back the lead. This year, the D is holding up. I pretty much guarantee that if the D were still collapsing and the L's were piling up, the mood on BBI regarding DJ would be vastly different.

He's a decent QB. I just don't think he's made some great leap in ability. Some, sure. You expect that in year 4 and with competent coaching/scheme.


If he did lead game winning drives, I just do not remember them. (no need to point them out if he did, he may have and I just don't remember). The reasons I changed to believing DJ was not "the guy" last year was because he could not complete drives with TDs and he did not bring the team down the field for leads late in games. What the defense did or did not do was irrelevant.
You are right, it is not vast improvement even if it is significant. I do not see enough to justify $30+ mill - if Schoen and Daboll do, they obviously know a lot more than me.
There is a lot of “all or nothing” with the Jones debate  
Sean : 11/8/2022 9:58 am : link
1. He’s the guy and we need to lock him up asap.

2. He’s a back up level QB and any cheaper QB can be inserted and produce the same production.

After watching some QB play, especially Willis - simply inserting another QB and expecting the same is probably not realistic.

As always, the truth is probably in the middle where NYG looks to bring back Jones as a bridge QB until the next guy comes (probably a 2 year deal).
...  
christian : 11/8/2022 10:11 am : link
Sean, I think Team Jones would be really reluctant to sign a 2-year deal under nearly any circumstances.

If he proves he's a bona fide good quarterback, who can produce points and get a team to the playoffs, he's going to command a multi-year commitment with plenty of guaranteed money. That probably ends with the Giants franchise tagging him.

If he doesn't, Team Jones probably angles for a 1-year prove it deal somewhere were he can compete for a starting job and show he can be the guy.

Bridgedom is for guys who have proven they can't really do it, and I don't think Team Jones has to concede that yet.
RE: ...  
Sean : 11/8/2022 10:19 am : link
In comment 15900895 christian said:
Quote:
Sean, I think Team Jones would be really reluctant to sign a 2-year deal under nearly any circumstances.

If he proves he's a bona fide good quarterback, who can produce points and get a team to the playoffs, he's going to command a multi-year commitment with plenty of guaranteed money. That probably ends with the Giants franchise tagging him.

If he doesn't, Team Jones probably angles for a 1-year prove it deal somewhere were he can compete for a starting job and show he can be the guy.

Bridgedom is for guys who have proven they can't really do it, and I don't think Team Jones has to concede that yet.

Which is why the answer keeps going back to “9 games left”. I think Schoen/Daboll still need to see more. For the money that Jones may command, he can’t have performances like he did in Seattle.
...  
christian : 11/8/2022 10:29 am : link
Yeah for sure. I think if the season ended today they would move on. But the season doesn't end today.

Jones has a tremendous opportunity in front of him. He's the QB of a winning team, and the Giants play two of the worst teams in the NFL coming up.

The Giants have every reason to believe they'll be 8-2 when the real fun starts on Thanksgiving. And by then the Giants should have Bredeson, Neal, Lemieux, and Gates healthy.

I think these "have to see more" opinions are silly  
Producer : 11/8/2022 10:38 am : link
And indicate that you have a low opinion of BD's and JS's experience and intellect. If they don't know who Jones is as a QB by now, they're bad at their jobs. They know who he is, they know his traits, they know if they want to stake their careers on him, and if they want to build around him.

I don't know what they are thinking. Though I'm guessing the answer is no, but they must already know. Jones isn't going to become a different athlete in the next nine weeks.
Maybe the NFL is in a transition period  
HomerJones45 : 11/8/2022 10:49 am : link
and you don't really need the super duper pocket passer qb anymore.

We've seen several great and highly compensated passers struggling this year and some normally terrific passing games have a hard time putting points on the board. The Chiefs won the other night, but struggled to put points on the board. Passing games are focused on short passes where a big arm or passing ability almost doesn't matter. Who needs to pay a qb 50 million to throw 4 yard passes?

Defenses have caught up to the crazy passing games with fast defenders, defenses that morph on the fly and crazy blitzes from anywhere and everywhere. The lack of cohesive o-lines and practice time makes pass blocking problematical.

On the other hand, teams with inexpensive mediocrities at qb like Seattle, ourselves, the Jets have done well. Running games seem to be coming back taking advantage of these moving defenses and smaller, faster defenders and the relative plethora and inexpensive rb's. Mixon ran for 4 scores against 8 in the box the other day and Lamar threw for a whole 133 yards last night. Both teams won big.

So, maybe the quest for the ultimate passer through either a big spend or a high draft pick is a misallocation of resources. Don't spend a lot of money or a high draft pick on the position, and put more dough into receivers.

If that is the case, you might as well keep an inexpensive mediocrity like Jones (this 20-30 million talk is insane) and if he is not, you go sign a Mayfield, Smith, Brisset, there's lots to chose from, and it doesn't matter which, sign Barkley who is going to be less expensive than a star qb, and spend high draft picks on wideouts hoping to find a Chase or AJ Brown or a Jefferson. Use a 3rd or 4th rounder to pick a qb. If you find someone, fine, if not, who cares; they aren't getting paid anyway.

That may be the way the NFL is headed with the cap and star qb economic demands.
That is a very interesting theory  
Jerry in_DC : 11/8/2022 10:51 am : link
I don't think I agree with it, but it does have some merit
I think its more likely  
Jerry in_DC : 11/8/2022 10:53 am : link
That this season is anomalous - lot of mediocrity across the board, QBs getting old.
RE: I think these  
MOOPS : 11/8/2022 10:54 am : link
In comment 15900921 Producer said:
Quote:
And indicate that you have a low opinion of BD's and JS's experience and intellect. If they don't know who Jones is as a QB by now, they're bad at their jobs. They know who he is, they know his traits, they know if they want to stake their careers on him, and if they want to build around him.

I don't know what they are thinking. Though I'm guessing the answer is no, but they must already know. Jones isn't going to become a different athlete in the next nine weeks.


You don't know what management is thinking, but if anyone has an opinion that is somehow opposed to yours they are silly and have a low opinion of management.
I think I got it now.
RE: Maybe the NFL is in a transition period  
PatersonPlank : 11/8/2022 10:57 am : link
In comment 15900930 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
and you don't really need the super duper pocket passer qb anymore.

We've seen several great and highly compensated passers struggling this year and some normally terrific passing games have a hard time putting points on the board. The Chiefs won the other night, but struggled to put points on the board. Passing games are focused on short passes where a big arm or passing ability almost doesn't matter. Who needs to pay a qb 50 million to throw 4 yard passes?

Defenses have caught up to the crazy passing games with fast defenders, defenses that morph on the fly and crazy blitzes from anywhere and everywhere. The lack of cohesive o-lines and practice time makes pass blocking problematical.

On the other hand, teams with inexpensive mediocrities at qb like Seattle, ourselves, the Jets have done well. Running games seem to be coming back taking advantage of these moving defenses and smaller, faster defenders and the relative plethora and inexpensive rb's. Mixon ran for 4 scores against 8 in the box the other day and Lamar threw for a whole 133 yards last night. Both teams won big.

So, maybe the quest for the ultimate passer through either a big spend or a high draft pick is a misallocation of resources. Don't spend a lot of money or a high draft pick on the position, and put more dough into receivers.

If that is the case, you might as well keep an inexpensive mediocrity like Jones (this 20-30 million talk is insane) and if he is not, you go sign a Mayfield, Smith, Brisset, there's lots to chose from, and it doesn't matter which, sign Barkley who is going to be less expensive than a star qb, and spend high draft picks on wideouts hoping to find a Chase or AJ Brown or a Jefferson. Use a 3rd or 4th rounder to pick a qb. If you find someone, fine, if not, who cares; they aren't getting paid anyway.

That may be the way the NFL is headed with the cap and star qb economic demands.


I have read this other places and generally agree. Defenses have adapted so now the pendulum swings again. Also there are only a few QBs who really make a difference (pick your own number, mine is like 8). Outside of that the next 15 or so guys are roughly the same, so what are you supposed to do? Either keep rolling the dice to find a "top guy" in the lottery called the draft, or get a guy like Barkley and build around him instead. The NFL keeps moving, so before people start bashing this just remember the transitions we see happen every decade.
I think you're on to something there Homer.  
MOOPS : 11/8/2022 11:02 am : link
I've been thinking the same thing recently.

RE: RE: That's a lot of words  
allstarjim : 11/8/2022 11:22 am : link
In comment 15900770 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15900768 allstarjim said:


Quote:


That don't say anything of value, with a lot of faulty reasoning leading to errant conclusions.

You say bc I said Taylor has a winning record, you have a problem with that as it relates to Jones? Sounds like you have a problem with Taylor, not that I have a problem with Jones.

Nowhere have I said that Jones' 6-2 record is irrelevant.

It's relevant, and so is a lot of other data points as it relates to Jones.

I don't have full confidence that Jones can be an elite passer. That's all, that's it. I haven't seen it yet, and I'd like to. I hope he lights it up the second half. Clear things up for you?



You've given me a lot that I disagree with.

1-- Did you or did you not compare Taylor to Jones? You did.

2--- Did you or did you not use win loss as part of your comparison? You did.

3--- When you compare one player vs another in which it appears you are implying they are about the same, how can it not be considered a dig on Jones?

4-- To paraphrase you use phrases like "Jones can't compete as a high level passer" (unless you are comparing him vs super QB's o "very very good QB's) -- only someone who hates him (his game) and "he isn’t that great" yet- - you're making misleading comparisons by blasting him for not being "Brady/or a level below Burrow" - it just doesn't make sense that you can say you don't hate his game beucase as you put by using the word “compete” - he is “not great.” When you say a guy can’t compete – then in what word is that not a dig? And San Fran has been to a Super Bowl and got to NFC Championsionshp game in recent years. Jones “can’t compete” with Jimmy G. Not saying he is Jimmy G, But can’t compete?

What's faulty is your wording and your belief you aren't digging him.

I didn’t have a problem with YOU using win loss - I have a problem when posters who hate Jones as you do - when it's been brought up of this year win loss record - the haters (not necessary you) suddenly say you can't use it even though it's as you put it "A fact" that Jones is 6-2 this year.

If you could use win loss and state it is a fact (which it is) - then so can Jones supporters use it this year showing he is 6-2. It's not faulty. It's a fact that he is 6-2. If you cna post facts then why can't they? Other posters on this thread and who hate Jones bitch at the Jones supporters for using the 6-2 fact.



Willfully idiocy. Re-read the thread.
RE: Jones' lows still look like his lows of old  
NYGgolfer : 11/8/2022 11:25 am : link
In comment 15900857 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
but his highs are more numerous - that's the biggest difference this year. That said that highs don't seem to be high enough and I still need to see a bunch more of them strung together.

He's a solid QB but you can do better. And if you have to do worse on the way to getting there, so be it.


I am of this same mindset. Though my perspective would downgrade wording here a bit from solid to adequate. Solid in my view means likely extension and I am not there on Jones.

And just my own takeaway but I don't think this regime is there either. Listening to the tone and tenor of Joe Schoen on some of his media sessions during the recent bye week, his wording on Jones was generally positive but very reserved enough that it felt like he was holding back what he really was thinking.

Schoen is pleased the team is 6-2, he acknowledges Jones with positive contributions with the handful of game-winning drives, but he's not the QB that he envisions going-forward after this season.
RE: Maybe the NFL is in a transition period  
Producer : 11/8/2022 11:32 am : link
In comment 15900930 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
and you don't really need the super duper pocket passer qb anymore.

We've seen several great and highly compensated passers struggling this year and some normally terrific passing games have a hard time putting points on the board. The Chiefs won the other night, but struggled to put points on the board. Passing games are focused on short passes where a big arm or passing ability almost doesn't matter. Who needs to pay a qb 50 million to throw 4 yard passes?

Defenses have caught up to the crazy passing games with fast defenders, defenses that morph on the fly and crazy blitzes from anywhere and everywhere. The lack of cohesive o-lines and practice time makes pass blocking problematical.

On the other hand, teams with inexpensive mediocrities at qb like Seattle, ourselves, the Jets have done well. Running games seem to be coming back taking advantage of these moving defenses and smaller, faster defenders and the relative plethora and inexpensive rb's. Mixon ran for 4 scores against 8 in the box the other day and Lamar threw for a whole 133 yards last night. Both teams won big.

So, maybe the quest for the ultimate passer through either a big spend or a high draft pick is a misallocation of resources. Don't spend a lot of money or a high draft pick on the position, and put more dough into receivers.

If that is the case, you might as well keep an inexpensive mediocrity like Jones (this 20-30 million talk is insane) and if he is not, you go sign a Mayfield, Smith, Brisset, there's lots to chose from, and it doesn't matter which, sign Barkley who is going to be less expensive than a star qb, and spend high draft picks on wideouts hoping to find a Chase or AJ Brown or a Jefferson. Use a 3rd or 4th rounder to pick a qb. If you find someone, fine, if not, who cares; they aren't getting paid anyway.

That may be the way the NFL is headed with the cap and star qb economic demands.


If you are not a star passer then you have to combine very good passing with elite QB running, as Balt is trying to do with Lamar, chi with Fields, and perhaps Daboll is trying out with Jones.
RE: RE: I think these  
Producer : 11/8/2022 11:34 am : link
In comment 15900936 MOOPS said:
Quote:
In comment 15900921 Producer said:


Quote:


And indicate that you have a low opinion of BD's and JS's experience and intellect. If they don't know who Jones is as a QB by now, they're bad at their jobs. They know who he is, they know his traits, they know if they want to stake their careers on him, and if they want to build around him.

I don't know what they are thinking. Though I'm guessing the answer is no, but they must already know. Jones isn't going to become a different athlete in the next nine weeks.



You don't know what management is thinking, but if anyone has an opinion that is somehow opposed to yours they are silly and have a low opinion of management.
I think I got it now.


Good managers don't change their opinion every week based on performance. Good managers come up with a strategy and first decide if the asset is a good fit for the plan.
It is very much worth revisiting what happened with the Buffalo Bills  
mikeinbloomfield : 11/8/2022 11:38 am : link
2017-18, when our GM was assistant GM. In 2017, the Bills broke a 18 year playoff drought, getting a wild card on the last day of the season, with Tyrod Taylor as QB.

So what did Beane do? Did he build around the QB he inherited who just got him to the playoffs? Nope, he traded him for draft capital, drafted Josh Allen and ended up starting Nathan Peterman of all people.

For all our speculation here, it remains to be seen whether Schoen / Daboll consider Jones the guy going forward or whether they treat him like Tyrod Taylor, but I would say the odds favor the latter. They may give Jones an extension (rather than trade him), but I don't think that will keep them from drafting someone who they consider the future. We'll see soon.

RE: ...  
allstarjim : 11/8/2022 11:40 am : link
In comment 15900895 christian said:
Quote:
Sean, I think Team Jones would be really reluctant to sign a 2-year deal under nearly any circumstances.

If he proves he's a bona fide good quarterback, who can produce points and get a team to the playoffs, he's going to command a multi-year commitment with plenty of guaranteed money. That probably ends with the Giants franchise tagging him.

If he doesn't, Team Jones probably angles for a 1-year prove it deal somewhere were he can compete for a starting job and show he can be the guy.

Bridgedom is for guys who have proven they can't really do it, and I don't think Team Jones has to concede that yet.


This is the one thing I can say with 100% certainty absolutely will not happen.

The franchise tag is more than $45M for next year. There is no way on earth DJ is getting that. It's at least double his market value. It's not even close to being on the table this off-season.
Love the conversation on this thread.  
JoeyBigBlue : 11/8/2022 11:52 am : link
I think ultimately drafting a QB would be a step back in the rebuild, but I build it’s the best option for sustained success. I think we have enough of an infrastructure where we could develop a QB to be a game manager for his rookie season and be ready to compete by year 2. We have solid coaching, two bookend tackles, and hopefully 2 edge rushers for the future.
Yeah  
Jerry in_DC : 11/8/2022 11:53 am : link
The tag for Jones is ludicrous. It's a catastrophic use of cap and we need the tag for Barkley anyway
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 11/8/2022 12:10 pm : link
In comment 15900974 allstarjim said:
Quote:

The franchise tag is more than $45M for next year. There is no way on earth DJ is getting that. It's at least double his market value. It's not even close to being on the table this off-season.


The non-exclusive franchise tag is 31.5M, which is roughly 9M more than he would have earned on his 5th year option. That tag would compensate the Giants with 2 first round picks if he signs elsewhere.

That 45M figure that's been posted is the exclusive rights tag, that prohibits the player from negotiating with another team.

The Giants would gladly take 2 first round picks for Jones.
RE: Yeah  
christian : 11/8/2022 12:14 pm : link
In comment 15900985 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
The tag for Jones is ludicrous. It's a catastrophic use of cap and we need the tag for Barkley anyway


My comment is predicated on: Jones finishes the year really well, ramps up his production, and the Giants make the playoffs.

If those things were to be true, I believe the Giants would franchise him, rather than make a big multi-year commitment.

I am not predicting that will happen.
If we tag him, could he unilaterally sign the 1 year deal?  
Jerry in_DC : 11/8/2022 12:15 pm : link
Like qualifying offers in the NBA? I'd imagine he'd jump at that amount of money. It's like hitting the lottery.
RE: Love the conversation on this thread.  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/8/2022 12:21 pm : link
In comment 15900983 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
I think ultimately drafting a QB would be a step back in the rebuild, but I build it’s the best option for sustained success. I think we have enough of an infrastructure where we could develop a QB to be a game manager for his rookie season and be ready to compete by year 2. We have solid coaching, two bookend tackles, and hopefully 2 edge rushers for the future.


I don't think it would be a set back. They have a good amount of good players. The D is pretty close to being really good. The OL has young tackles and you still have Gates and Lemieux coming back in addition to Ezuedu with another draft to add more comp at IOL.

If they can add a upper tier WR and strengthen that group a bit I don't see any reason why they could not compete for the division with a rookie if they correctly identify the talent.

Then the money saved on not having to pay Jones can add some depth and perhaps a good FA or two.

I actually think JS would prefer this route but lots of variables can change the equation.
RE: RE: RE: That's a lot of words  
giantstock : 11/8/2022 12:44 pm : link
In comment 15900956 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 15900770 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 15900768 allstarjim said:


Quote:


That don't say anything of value, with a lot of faulty reasoning leading to errant conclusions.

You say bc I said Taylor has a winning record, you have a problem with that as it relates to Jones? Sounds like you have a problem with Taylor, not that I have a problem with Jones.

Nowhere have I said that Jones' 6-2 record is irrelevant.

It's relevant, and so is a lot of other data points as it relates to Jones.

I don't have full confidence that Jones can be an elite passer. That's all, that's it. I haven't seen it yet, and I'd like to. I hope he lights it up the second half. Clear things up for you?



You've given me a lot that I disagree with.

1-- Did you or did you not compare Taylor to Jones? You did.

2--- Did you or did you not use win loss as part of your comparison? You did.

3--- When you compare one player vs another in which it appears you are implying they are about the same, how can it not be considered a dig on Jones?

4-- To paraphrase you use phrases like "Jones can't compete as a high level passer" (unless you are comparing him vs super QB's o "very very good QB's) -- only someone who hates him (his game) and "he isn’t that great" yet- - you're making misleading comparisons by blasting him for not being "Brady/or a level below Burrow" - it just doesn't make sense that you can say you don't hate his game beucase as you put by using the word “compete” - he is “not great.” When you say a guy can’t compete – then in what word is that not a dig? And San Fran has been to a Super Bowl and got to NFC Championsionshp game in recent years. Jones “can’t compete” with Jimmy G. Not saying he is Jimmy G, But can’t compete?

What's faulty is your wording and your belief you aren't digging him.

I didn’t have a problem with YOU using win loss - I have a problem when posters who hate Jones as you do - when it's been brought up of this year win loss record - the haters (not necessary you) suddenly say you can't use it even though it's as you put it "A fact" that Jones is 6-2 this year.

If you could use win loss and state it is a fact (which it is) - then so can Jones supporters use it this year showing he is 6-2. It's not faulty. It's a fact that he is 6-2. If you cna post facts then why can't they? Other posters on this thread and who hate Jones bitch at the Jones supporters for using the 6-2 fact.





Willfully idiocy. Re-read the thread.


Ditto back at you. LMAO at your hypocrisy. But more like your too stupid to see it. I love the comment "I'm stating fact about wins and losses . . . " and yet you haters on other threads when a positive Jones supporter mentions 6-2 it they get blasted for it and yet you keep trying to weasel that YOU are statign facts. LMAO.

I'm reading your comments and it's laughable you haters don't have the guts to just come out and say it you hate his game. Right form the get-go you pretend to play dumb that you don't understand the terminology of "hater." My God. You try to weasel out of it. Typical hypocritical nonsense form you guys. More laughable you compare Jones to Taylor with starts and number of wins and losses but then all of sudden you're in denial that you compared them. LMAO.

And noooo hahahaha you're not digging on Jones. Only comparing him to backup QB and comparing wins and losses but nooooo you're not digging on Jones. LMAO.
RE: RE: Yeah  
Producer : 11/8/2022 12:47 pm : link
In comment 15901011 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15900985 Jerry in_DC said:


Quote:


The tag for Jones is ludicrous. It's a catastrophic use of cap and we need the tag for Barkley anyway



My comment is predicated on: Jones finishes the year really well, ramps up his production, and the Giants make the playoffs.

If those things were to be true, I believe the Giants would franchise him, rather than make a big multi-year commitment.

I am not predicting that will happen.


What does that even mean? Are you saying, if Jones plays like Josh Allen suddenly? That ain't gonna happen.
RE: Love the conversation on this thread.  
giantstock : 11/8/2022 12:47 pm : link
In comment 15900983 JoeyBigBlue said:
Quote:
I think ultimately drafting a QB would be a step back in the rebuild, but I build it’s the best option for sustained success. I think we have enough of an infrastructure where we could develop a QB to be a game manager for his rookie season and be ready to compete by year 2. We have solid coaching, two bookend tackles, and hopefully 2 edge rushers for the future.


I lean towards this at the moment.
 
christian : 11/8/2022 1:26 pm : link
In comment 15901058 Producer said:
Quote:
My comment is predicated on: Jones finishes the year really well, ramps up his production, and the Giants make the playoffs.

If those things were to be true, I believe the Giants would franchise him, rather than make a big multi-year commitment.

I am not predicting that will happen.

What does that even mean? Are you saying, if Jones plays like Josh Allen suddenly? That ain't gonna happen.


That’s a bizarre conclusion to come to based on that comment.

What does that mean:

1) Playing really well — playing efficiently, not making critical mistakes, making good choices, especially in critical situations

2) Ramps up production — gains more yards, creates more first downs, and creates more touchdowns per game with his arm and legs than he did the first 8 games

3) Make the playoffs — Make the playoffs
IF Jones finishes up well  
fkap : 11/8/2022 2:12 pm : link
they're going to look to sign him long term, or at least medium term.

Maybe that's just wishful thinking, as I think the tag should only be applied as part of contract negotiations, NOT (as it would appear many here want) as a one year rental. Thoughts of the tag being the ultimate goal should be last resort.

IF Daboll harbors any thoughts of DJ being the man, he needs to throw the book at DJ and see how DJ handles it. By the end of the year, Daboll should have all the info necessary to evaluate. IF the answer is yes, offer a contract. If the two sides can't come to an agreement, apply the tag (presuming there's any hope of an agreement, and Giants are willing to pay the tag price) so DJ can't just up and leave. Then work to make a contract.

Playing the tag for a year, then signing long term makes for a steep increase in guaranteed money.
 
christian : 11/8/2022 2:22 pm : link
I think it’s pretty tough for a GM to make a big commitment to a QB with only one year together. I suspect a big part of investing 100M+ in guaranteed money is: can the guy grow year-over-year.
RE: RE: RE: RE: That's a lot of words  
allstarjim : 11/8/2022 2:55 pm : link
In comment 15901053 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 15900956 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 15900770 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 15900768 allstarjim said:


Quote:


That don't say anything of value, with a lot of faulty reasoning leading to errant conclusions.

You say bc I said Taylor has a winning record, you have a problem with that as it relates to Jones? Sounds like you have a problem with Taylor, not that I have a problem with Jones.

Nowhere have I said that Jones' 6-2 record is irrelevant.

It's relevant, and so is a lot of other data points as it relates to Jones.

I don't have full confidence that Jones can be an elite passer. That's all, that's it. I haven't seen it yet, and I'd like to. I hope he lights it up the second half. Clear things up for you?



You've given me a lot that I disagree with.

1-- Did you or did you not compare Taylor to Jones? You did.

2--- Did you or did you not use win loss as part of your comparison? You did.

3--- When you compare one player vs another in which it appears you are implying they are about the same, how can it not be considered a dig on Jones?

4-- To paraphrase you use phrases like "Jones can't compete as a high level passer" (unless you are comparing him vs super QB's o "very very good QB's) -- only someone who hates him (his game) and "he isn’t that great" yet- - you're making misleading comparisons by blasting him for not being "Brady/or a level below Burrow" - it just doesn't make sense that you can say you don't hate his game beucase as you put by using the word “compete” - he is “not great.” When you say a guy can’t compete – then in what word is that not a dig? And San Fran has been to a Super Bowl and got to NFC Championsionshp game in recent years. Jones “can’t compete” with Jimmy G. Not saying he is Jimmy G, But can’t compete?

What's faulty is your wording and your belief you aren't digging him.

I didn’t have a problem with YOU using win loss - I have a problem when posters who hate Jones as you do - when it's been brought up of this year win loss record - the haters (not necessary you) suddenly say you can't use it even though it's as you put it "A fact" that Jones is 6-2 this year.

If you could use win loss and state it is a fact (which it is) - then so can Jones supporters use it this year showing he is 6-2. It's not faulty. It's a fact that he is 6-2. If you cna post facts then why can't they? Other posters on this thread and who hate Jones bitch at the Jones supporters for using the 6-2 fact.





Willfully idiocy. Re-read the thread.



Ditto back at you. LMAO at your hypocrisy. But more like your too stupid to see it. I love the comment "I'm stating fact about wins and losses . . . " and yet you haters on other threads when a positive Jones supporter mentions 6-2 it they get blasted for it and yet you keep trying to weasel that YOU are statign facts. LMAO.

I'm reading your comments and it's laughable you haters don't have the guts to just come out and say it you hate his game. Right form the get-go you pretend to play dumb that you don't understand the terminology of "hater." My God. You try to weasel out of it. Typical hypocritical nonsense form you guys. More laughable you compare Jones to Taylor with starts and number of wins and losses but then all of sudden you're in denial that you compared them. LMAO.

And noooo hahahaha you're not digging on Jones. Only comparing him to backup QB and comparing wins and losses but nooooo you're not digging on Jones. LMAO.


Your posts are a bunch of strawmen and loose interpretations of what I said (to fit your desired narrative) and not actually what I said. You should be a politician; you spin faster than a globetrotter basketball.

Among your many incorrect and nonsensical ramblings, nowhere did I say that DJ's record this year didn't matter. I said it all matters. Nowhere did I say DJ and Taylor were equal players. I said it's possible Taylor could run the offense to similar results.

I said their skillsets appear similar. If you think that is "comparing" them, as if that is weirdly taboo, fine. All players are compared to others. Just because you are compared doesn't mean you are the same, as good, better or worse.

Finally, I've said IMO Taylor is a player I think has ability, demonstrated by his winning record, which has nothing to do with Jones, and that I respect him as a player. If somehow what I said means that I am comparing him to Taylor, and if somehow that means that I think they are the same, then that DOES NOT speak ill of Jones, it speaks well of Taylor (and Jones).

Nowhere did I say DJ could not become an elite passer. I said he hasn't shown it yet.

If you want to ask me if I think that is a necessity to pay a QB premium dollars and be considered the future of the franchise, then the answer would be yes. I do think that is the case. I also think it would NOT be a bad thing for DJ to be re-signed on a 1-year deal to continue to compete, which is also not a bad thing. He could be a late-bloomer, which we've seen QBs come into their own several seasons into their career to great success. Steve Young comes to mind, and most recently, Geno Smith.

You have an obsession with demagogue-ing people rather than simply trying to understand their rationale. You're like a scorned woman who will not be reasoned with.

Because someone still recognizes that DJ has a little more ways to go in developing his overall game to elevate himself to a player that can lead this team to deep runs into the playoffs annually, that doesn't mean they "hate" him, doesn't mean they "hate his game," it doesn't mean they aren't rooting for him, it doesn't mean they wish he would fail.

It means just what it means...there's still room for improvement. All season I've said he gets a lot of credit for his improvement thus far. If you think he's a finished product right now, that's your opinion. If that's the case, then to use YOUR logic, I would accuse you of being a Giants-hater and rooting for the Giants to have a mediocre offense in perpetuity.

This offense is being ran through the threat of Saquon. It needs more help. DJ needs more help. The WR corps is probably the worst in the NFL, rivaled only by possibly the Packers, and they are still probably a better unit. The overall unit really missed Neal and Bellinger in the 'Hawks game. But many things can be true at once. The roster needs to be improved, DJ can also improve by making better decisions with where to go with the football.

When I will be satisfied is that this team is among the leaders in offensive production and scoring. Right now, we're third from the bottom in passing and have thrown for the fewest passing TDs in the NFL (tied). We're 19th in the NFL in overall scoring per game. We're 6th in the NFL in FGs made and tied for fourth in attempts, meaning we are not finishing a lot of drives with TDs.

If you are satisfied with that, ok, I guess. But that doesn't lend itself to consistent wins in the modern NFL and is a poor bellwether to playoff success.

I want the Giants to be better in all areas, I want DJ to be better. I want the same that you want, which is a consistent winner.

And finally, 6-2 is great. So far, the Giants have beaten the Titans, Ravens, Packers, Bears, Panthers, and Jaguars, and all have been one score victories.

Seeing the facts of where the Giants are overall is not an indictment of, well, anything. The culture has changed greatly for the better. Winning close games is an important step. And the running game and defense is as much of a reason the Giants are 6-2 as is DJ's improvement. All of these are good things. And all of the offensive metrics would suggest that for them to take THE NEXT step to being one of the elite teams necessitates a leap forward by the offense.

I'm happy with what the Giants have accomplished so far. I also want them to be a perennial division winner and Super Bowl contender. That is not where they are at right now, but where they are at is far better than where they've been.

Stop with the clown act.

Quick clarification on this point below:  
allstarjim : 11/8/2022 3:00 pm : link
Where I wrote the following:
Quote:
If you want to ask me if I think that is a necessity to pay a QB premium dollars and be considered the future of the franchise, then the answer would be yes. I do think that is the case.


What I meant to say is if you want to ask me if DJ needs become a top-tier passer to earn QB premium dollars and be considered the future of the franchise, then the answer would be yes.

He's not there yet, as judged by the results. That doesn't mean he hasn't come a long way. I'd love to see him get there, that's clearly the optimum outcome.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
allstarjim : 11/8/2022 3:22 pm : link
In comment 15901002 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15900974 allstarjim said:


Quote:



The franchise tag is more than $45M for next year. There is no way on earth DJ is getting that. It's at least double his market value. It's not even close to being on the table this off-season.



The non-exclusive franchise tag is 31.5M, which is roughly 9M more than he would have earned on his 5th year option. That tag would compensate the Giants with 2 first round picks if he signs elsewhere.

That 45M figure that's been posted is the exclusive rights tag, that prohibits the player from negotiating with another team.

The Giants would gladly take 2 first round picks for Jones.


We don't know what the non-exclusive tag would cost yet. Part of the calculation is the 2023 salary cap. The estimates would indicate ~$218M, and the estimate for QB non-exclusive franchise tag right now is $34M.

DJ is not getting that as it stands today, it would not remotely be on the table.
RE: …  
Producer : 11/8/2022 3:32 pm : link
In comment 15901091 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15901058 Producer said:


Quote:


My comment is predicated on: Jones finishes the year really well, ramps up his production, and the Giants make the playoffs.

If those things were to be true, I believe the Giants would franchise him, rather than make a big multi-year commitment.

I am not predicting that will happen.

What does that even mean? Are you saying, if Jones plays like Josh Allen suddenly? That ain't gonna happen.



That’s a bizarre conclusion to come to based on that comment.

What does that mean:

1) Playing really well — playing efficiently, not making critical mistakes, making good choices, especially in critical situations

2) Ramps up production — gains more yards, creates more first downs, and creates more touchdowns per game with his arm and legs than he did the first 8 games

3) Make the playoffs — Make the playoffs


I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what differentiates QBs. QBs are defined by their traits. Daniel Jones is basically the same QB he was 2 years ago, but he has improved a bit in certain areas, runs a little better, better pocket presence, etc. But guys like Daboll are looking for traits, first, not incremental improvement for a QB that doesn't fit what he wants to do.

Look at a QB as a gun. You might get a rifle, and over time you can make little improvements to it that might affect firing range, firing speed, etc. But your improvements aren't going to make it a howitzer.

I think Daboll knows what kind of QB he wants, what traits and what skill level. If DJ has those fundamental traits, great, then he'll keep him. And Daboll already knows this answer by the way, he's just not saying he knows the answer. But if Daboll's ideal for a QB is more like Josh Allen, Mahomes, what have you, then the incremental change in Jones' game isn't going to make one damn bit of difference.
 
christian : 11/8/2022 3:33 pm : link
In comment 15901202 allstarjim said:
Quote:
We don't know what the non-exclusive tag would cost yet. Part of the calculation is the 2023 salary cap. The estimates would indicate ~$218M, and the estimate for QB non-exclusive franchise tag right now is $34M.

DJ is not getting that as it stands today, it would not remotely be on the table.


OTC projects the 2023 salary cap to be 225M, and on that the non-exclusive franchise tender to be 31.5M. Of course that number can change if 2023 salary cap number moves.

I don’t disagree, as it stands today, I don’t believe they would tag him. The original point I made was.

Quote:
If he proves he's a bona fide good quarterback, who can produce points and get a team to the playoffs, he's going to command a multi-year commitment with plenty of guaranteed money. That probably ends with the Giants franchise tagging him.
RE: …  
allstarjim : 11/8/2022 3:41 pm : link
In comment 15901207 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15901202 allstarjim said:


Quote:


We don't know what the non-exclusive tag would cost yet. Part of the calculation is the 2023 salary cap. The estimates would indicate ~$218M, and the estimate for QB non-exclusive franchise tag right now is $34M.

DJ is not getting that as it stands today, it would not remotely be on the table.



OTC projects the 2023 salary cap to be 225M, and on that the non-exclusive franchise tender to be 31.5M. Of course that number can change if 2023 salary cap number moves.

I don’t disagree, as it stands today, I don’t believe they would tag him. The original point I made was.



Quote:


If he proves he's a bona fide good quarterback, who can produce points and get a team to the playoffs, he's going to command a multi-year commitment with plenty of guaranteed money. That probably ends with the Giants franchise tagging him.



My estimate was based on this article by PFT:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/04/12/ravens-could-be-facing-a-lamar-jackson-franchise-tag-dilemma-in-2023

We're splitting hairs, I don't think it would be on the table for either figure, but don't think the difference is completely insignificant when considering what the Giants need to do next year with internal signings/free agency/draft.
...  
christian : 11/8/2022 4:05 pm : link
I agree with you Jim. I'm a card carrying Jones skeptic btw. Some weeks I think he's got OK odds to return, and then he follows it up with the performance against Seattle.

I think my view is more, if Jones improbably earns another year as a Giant, it would come by way of the tag versus a major investment.
RE: …  
mikeinbloomfield : 11/8/2022 4:07 pm : link
In comment 15901091 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15901058 Producer said:


Quote:


My comment is predicated on: Jones finishes the year really well, ramps up his production, and the Giants make the playoffs.

If those things were to be true, I believe the Giants would franchise him, rather than make a big multi-year commitment.

I am not predicting that will happen.

What does that even mean? Are you saying, if Jones plays like Josh Allen suddenly? That ain't gonna happen.



That’s a bizarre conclusion to come to based on that comment.

What does that mean:

1) Playing really well — playing efficiently, not making critical mistakes, making good choices, especially in critical situations

2) Ramps up production — gains more yards, creates more first downs, and creates more touchdowns per game with his arm and legs than he did the first 8 games

3) Make the playoffs — Make the playoffs


When they traded away Tyrod Taylor after 2017, his QB rating was 89. Daniel Jones' current rating is 88.

They're are not tagging him. Schoen doesn't preach financial responsibility and then pay Jones a lot more than he's worth. What probably happens is Jones tests the market, and if he can get a better deal than the two-year, mid-market deal Schoen will offer, he takes it and Schoen goes with Taylor. Jones will have to take into consideration that he is not the future of this team. He might take less money to go somewhere where he thinks he has a better shot.
RE: RE: …  
Producer : 11/8/2022 4:55 pm : link
In comment 15901226 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
In comment 15901091 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 15901058 Producer said:


Quote:


My comment is predicated on: Jones finishes the year really well, ramps up his production, and the Giants make the playoffs.

If those things were to be true, I believe the Giants would franchise him, rather than make a big multi-year commitment.

I am not predicting that will happen.

What does that even mean? Are you saying, if Jones plays like Josh Allen suddenly? That ain't gonna happen.



That’s a bizarre conclusion to come to based on that comment.

What does that mean:

1) Playing really well — playing efficiently, not making critical mistakes, making good choices, especially in critical situations

2) Ramps up production — gains more yards, creates more first downs, and creates more touchdowns per game with his arm and legs than he did the first 8 games

3) Make the playoffs — Make the playoffs



When they traded away Tyrod Taylor after 2017, his QB rating was 89. Daniel Jones' current rating is 88.

They're are not tagging him. Schoen doesn't preach financial responsibility and then pay Jones a lot more than he's worth. What probably happens is Jones tests the market, and if he can get a better deal than the two-year, mid-market deal Schoen will offer, he takes it and Schoen goes with Taylor. Jones will have to take into consideration that he is not the future of this team. He might take less money to go somewhere where he thinks he has a better shot.


In that instance, they'll probably draft a QB and Tyrod will start the first 6 weeks and hand it over.
...  
christian : 11/8/2022 4:59 pm : link
In comment 15901226 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
In comment 15901091 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 15901058 Producer said:


Quote:


My comment is predicated on: Jones finishes the year really well, ramps up his production, and the Giants make the playoffs.

If those things were to be true, I believe the Giants would franchise him, rather than make a big multi-year commitment.

I am not predicting that will happen.

What does that even mean? Are you saying, if Jones plays like Josh Allen suddenly? That ain't gonna happen.



That’s a bizarre conclusion to come to based on that comment.

What does that mean:

1) Playing really well — playing efficiently, not making critical mistakes, making good choices, especially in critical situations

2) Ramps up production — gains more yards, creates more first downs, and creates more touchdowns per game with his arm and legs than he did the first 8 games

3) Make the playoffs — Make the playoffs

When they traded away Tyrod Taylor after 2017, his QB rating was 89. Daniel Jones' current rating is 88.


Sure, that's why my observation is Jones would have to play better than he has so far to be in consideration to be tagged.
RE: ...  
Producer : 11/8/2022 5:04 pm : link
In comment 15901258 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15901226 mikeinbloomfield said:


Quote:


In comment 15901091 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 15901058 Producer said:


Quote:


My comment is predicated on: Jones finishes the year really well, ramps up his production, and the Giants make the playoffs.

If those things were to be true, I believe the Giants would franchise him, rather than make a big multi-year commitment.

I am not predicting that will happen.

What does that even mean? Are you saying, if Jones plays like Josh Allen suddenly? That ain't gonna happen.



That’s a bizarre conclusion to come to based on that comment.

What does that mean:

1) Playing really well — playing efficiently, not making critical mistakes, making good choices, especially in critical situations

2) Ramps up production — gains more yards, creates more first downs, and creates more touchdowns per game with his arm and legs than he did the first 8 games

3) Make the playoffs — Make the playoffs

When they traded away Tyrod Taylor after 2017, his QB rating was 89. Daniel Jones' current rating is 88.



Sure, that's why my observation is Jones would have to play better than he has so far to be in consideration to be tagged.


They're never tagging Jones at the amount you guys are talking about. He doesn't possess the traits to justify that expenditure. See my reply to you above. They aren't waiting for Jones to become a QB he isn't. They know his capabilities. His traits might be enough for them to commit to, but they aren't going to pay him as a top tier starter.
...  
christian : 11/8/2022 5:09 pm : link
31.5M on a franchise tender is not top tier starter money. That's actually middle tier starter money.

If Jones cements himself as a middle tier starter, would you rather they:

1) make him prove it again before committing to him or

2) just go ahead and commit middle tier starter to him on a multi-year deal?
I don't really think there is a middle tier  
Jerry in_DC : 11/8/2022 5:18 pm : link
At least in the way you're using it. There is Great, Good, Adequate (this is a huge tier), Bad.

There's no point in paying $30 M to someone in the Adequate tier, when you can get someone else for $10 M. Like Wentz is a bad contract.

You pay for top 10-ish QBs. Don't pay for game managers, guys who need a to of help, etc because you can get them for cheap.
Note  
Jerry in_DC : 11/8/2022 5:21 pm : link
That the above is a simplification for brevity. There is room for nuance around the margins and with specific cases. But as a general framework I think it is accurate
RE: I don't really think there is a middle tier  
Producer : 11/8/2022 5:30 pm : link
In comment 15901268 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
At least in the way you're using it. There is Great, Good, Adequate (this is a huge tier), Bad.

There's no point in paying $30 M to someone in the Adequate tier, when you can get someone else for $10 M. Like Wentz is a bad contract.

You pay for top 10-ish QBs. Don't pay for game managers, guys who need a to of help, etc because you can get them for cheap.


I'm with Jerry
Probably best to observe the last  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/8/2022 5:40 pm : link
9 games as that is what JS said he is doing. Five of them are against division teams and hopefully they are meaningful enough to amp up the pressure environment.

The answer what JS is going to wind up doing will probably be pretty clear.

The hang up is if he does not like the QB's or does not feel he can get one in the draft. This is where he may opt for the tag.

They are not turning the team over to Taylor imv. There is also a risk to JS's credibility if Jones is solid with some very big moments and then next year it falls apart with Taylor. But he is in the hot seat for a reason.

RE: RE: Maybe the NFL is in a transition period  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/10/2022 7:31 am : link
In comment 15900940 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
In comment 15900930 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


and you don't really need the super duper pocket passer qb anymore.

We've seen several great and highly compensated passers struggling this year and some normally terrific passing games have a hard time putting points on the board. The Chiefs won the other night, but struggled to put points on the board. Passing games are focused on short passes where a big arm or passing ability almost doesn't matter. Who needs to pay a qb 50 million to throw 4 yard passes?

Defenses have caught up to the crazy passing games with fast defenders, defenses that morph on the fly and crazy blitzes from anywhere and everywhere. The lack of cohesive o-lines and practice time makes pass blocking problematical.

On the other hand, teams with inexpensive mediocrities at qb like Seattle, ourselves, the Jets have done well. Running games seem to be coming back taking advantage of these moving defenses and smaller, faster defenders and the relative plethora and inexpensive rb's. Mixon ran for 4 scores against 8 in the box the other day and Lamar threw for a whole 133 yards last night. Both teams won big.

So, maybe the quest for the ultimate passer through either a big spend or a high draft pick is a misallocation of resources. Don't spend a lot of money or a high draft pick on the position, and put more dough into receivers.

If that is the case, you might as well keep an inexpensive mediocrity like Jones (this 20-30 million talk is insane) and if he is not, you go sign a Mayfield, Smith, Brisset, there's lots to chose from, and it doesn't matter which, sign Barkley who is going to be less expensive than a star qb, and spend high draft picks on wideouts hoping to find a Chase or AJ Brown or a Jefferson. Use a 3rd or 4th rounder to pick a qb. If you find someone, fine, if not, who cares; they aren't getting paid anyway.

That may be the way the NFL is headed with the cap and star qb economic demands.



I have read this other places and generally agree. Defenses have adapted so now the pendulum swings again. Also there are only a few QBs who really make a difference (pick your own number, mine is like 8). Outside of that the next 15 or so guys are roughly the same, so what are you supposed to do? Either keep rolling the dice to find a "top guy" in the lottery called the draft, or get a guy like Barkley and build around him instead. The NFL keeps moving, so before people start bashing this just remember the transitions we see happen every decade.

The problem with this line of thinking is that it assumes that just because defenses have adjusted (for the sake of my point, I'm accepting this hypothesis without challenge) and the pendulum is swinging back to a run-heavy approach (again, accepting this hypothesis without challenge for the sake of the argument), that somehow the QB market is adjusting simultaneously.

That seems like an enormous leap. IF the argument is valid that defenses have adjusted and a pass-heavy offense is about to become an outdated approach that only applies to the absolute top tier of QBs, THEN it follows that teams should not pay big money to quarterbacks that are not part of that elite group that a prolific passing offense can be built around. But the agents for those QBs are supposed to just accept the suggestion in negotiations that, "hey, we think the NFL is going to go back to a run-heavy approach now and in the future so we're deprioritizing the passing game; as a result, we expect you to accept a cheaper contract in recognition of that shift"? Is that how you envision the negotiations going?

Jones is not going to be inexpensive. Full stop. I agree, the $20-$30M talk IS insane, but not for the reason suggested here. It's because that's actually the gap in the QB market. QBs either make less than $20M or more than $30M on an AAV basis.

So, the question remains, if the NFL is on the precipice of a run-heavy renaissance, why should a team pay QB rates that are aligned with the about-to-be-outdated pass-heavy model of the modern NFL?

If you believe in the current offensive scheme, you have to strongly consider that you can win with an inexpensive QB. The only inexpensive QBs are rookie contracts and veteran journeymen. After this season, Jones is removed from the former. Are you suggesting that he belongs in the latter group?

I find a bit of humor in the arguments for why DJ will be cheaper than expected that actually end up logically suggesting that moving on from DJ is the action that most aligns with the whole pendulum-swinging-back hypothesis.

If you don't accept what the current QB market is, the rest of your argument is simply invalid.
RE: RE: ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/10/2022 7:34 am : link
In comment 15900974 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 15900895 christian said:


Quote:


Sean, I think Team Jones would be really reluctant to sign a 2-year deal under nearly any circumstances.

If he proves he's a bona fide good quarterback, who can produce points and get a team to the playoffs, he's going to command a multi-year commitment with plenty of guaranteed money. That probably ends with the Giants franchise tagging him.

If he doesn't, Team Jones probably angles for a 1-year prove it deal somewhere were he can compete for a starting job and show he can be the guy.

Bridgedom is for guys who have proven they can't really do it, and I don't think Team Jones has to concede that yet.



This is the one thing I can say with 100% certainty absolutely will not happen.

The franchise tag is more than $45M for next year. There is no way on earth DJ is getting that. It's at least double his market value. It's not even close to being on the table this off-season.

It's estimated at $31.85M for next year. The franchise tag is on a 5y rolling average, which drags it down quite a bit for QBs because the most recent round of big contracts all happened over the past 18 months or so.

I think you might want to save your 100% certainty for some other topics.
RE: RE: RE: Maybe the NFL is in a transition period  
ChrisRick : 11/10/2022 8:07 am : link
In comment 15902143 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15900940 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


In comment 15900930 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


and you don't really need the super duper pocket passer qb anymore.

We've seen several great and highly compensated passers struggling this year and some normally terrific passing games have a hard time putting points on the board. The Chiefs won the other night, but struggled to put points on the board. Passing games are focused on short passes where a big arm or passing ability almost doesn't matter. Who needs to pay a qb 50 million to throw 4 yard passes?

Defenses have caught up to the crazy passing games with fast defenders, defenses that morph on the fly and crazy blitzes from anywhere and everywhere. The lack of cohesive o-lines and practice time makes pass blocking problematical.

On the other hand, teams with inexpensive mediocrities at qb like Seattle, ourselves, the Jets have done well. Running games seem to be coming back taking advantage of these moving defenses and smaller, faster defenders and the relative plethora and inexpensive rb's. Mixon ran for 4 scores against 8 in the box the other day and Lamar threw for a whole 133 yards last night. Both teams won big.

So, maybe the quest for the ultimate passer through either a big spend or a high draft pick is a misallocation of resources. Don't spend a lot of money or a high draft pick on the position, and put more dough into receivers.

If that is the case, you might as well keep an inexpensive mediocrity like Jones (this 20-30 million talk is insane) and if he is not, you go sign a Mayfield, Smith, Brisset, there's lots to chose from, and it doesn't matter which, sign Barkley who is going to be less expensive than a star qb, and spend high draft picks on wideouts hoping to find a Chase or AJ Brown or a Jefferson. Use a 3rd or 4th rounder to pick a qb. If you find someone, fine, if not, who cares; they aren't getting paid anyway.

That may be the way the NFL is headed with the cap and star qb economic demands.



I have read this other places and generally agree. Defenses have adapted so now the pendulum swings again. Also there are only a few QBs who really make a difference (pick your own number, mine is like 8). Outside of that the next 15 or so guys are roughly the same, so what are you supposed to do? Either keep rolling the dice to find a "top guy" in the lottery called the draft, or get a guy like Barkley and build around him instead. The NFL keeps moving, so before people start bashing this just remember the transitions we see happen every decade.


The problem with this line of thinking is that it assumes that just because defenses have adjusted (for the sake of my point, I'm accepting this hypothesis without challenge) and the pendulum is swinging back to a run-heavy approach (again, accepting this hypothesis without challenge for the sake of the argument), that somehow the QB market is adjusting simultaneously.


Excluding the statement in bold. The NFL is a fluid entity in my view, so it will be interesting to see the results from the league changing to a run orientated league with bigger players to a pass oriented league with smaller, quicker, and faster players. It seems there will be an advantage somehow at sometime for a team that loads up on old school type players that focus on a running attack that can take advantage of those smaller defensive players.
...  
christian : 11/10/2022 8:33 am : link
My guess on possible outcomes:

1) Jones has a second half for the ages, the Giants go on a deep playoff run, and Jones signs a deal similar to Murray. Everyone including Jones is shocked.

2) Jones has a better second half than first half, the Giants go the playoffs, and Jones is franchise tagged. It effectively serves as an expensive 5th year option.

3) Jones plays about the same or worse than the first half, the Giants miss the playoffs. Jones signs a 1year prove it deal some place in the hopes of repairing his career.

The one outcome I think is improbable is Jones signing some below market deal for 2 or more years and sealing his fate as a Jameis Winston journeyman, after only 4 years in the NFL.
.  
ChrisRick : 11/10/2022 9:20 am : link
I Said:
Quote:
Excluding the statement in bold. The NFL is a fluid entity in my view, so it will be interesting to see the results from the league changing to a run orientated league with bigger players to a pass oriented league with smaller, quicker, and faster players. It seems there will be an advantage somehow at sometime for a team that loads up on old school type players that focus on a running attack that can take advantage of those smaller defensive players.


should read from
I haven't read this thread  
Jim in Forest Hills : 11/10/2022 9:30 am : link
but I'll feel good whichever direction Daboll and Schoen go (And I like Jones). I think not offering the 5th year was correct. Jones is showing that he can improve with better coaching. They will have the inside look on whether he can be the guy.
...  
christian : 11/10/2022 9:32 am : link
There's a natural cycle with trends. When the trend moves too far one direction, the supply side on the other becomes cheap and you can load up.

A good example is when the Patriots went after TEs, after the league copied them with quick hit WRs.

But the great equalizer is always the rules, and what rules are being emphasized.

I don't ever expect the league to dial back the player safety rules. Pass catchers will never have to worry about getting destroyed like they did 20 years ago. That on its own makes throwing the ball downfield much, much easier than in the 80s and 90s.

Maybe the league loosens up the pass interference and holding rules. But that doesn't seem likely to me either.

So sure, the supply demand pendulum will swing, but unless the ground rules change, I don't expect the return of smash mouth football.
RE: ...  
ChrisRick : 11/10/2022 10:03 am : link
In comment 15902196 christian said:
Quote:
There's a natural cycle with trends. When the trend moves too far one direction, the supply side on the other becomes cheap and you can load up.

A good example is when the Patriots went after TEs, after the league copied them with quick hit WRs.

But the great equalizer is always the rules, and what rules are being emphasized.

I don't ever expect the league to dial back the player safety rules. Pass catchers will never have to worry about getting destroyed like they did 20 years ago. That on its own makes throwing the ball downfield much, much easier than in the 80s and 90s.

Maybe the league loosens up the pass interference and holding rules. But that doesn't seem likely to me either.

So sure, the supply demand pendulum will swing, but unless the ground rules change, I don't expect the return of smash mouth football.


Well, no. Not smash mouth or nothing. But perhaps a more balanced mixture of the two. Defensive players are getting better at technique, they will in-time close the gap that the rules created in my opinion.
RE: RE: ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/10/2022 11:54 am : link
In comment 15902212 ChrisRick said:
Quote:
In comment 15902196 christian said:


Quote:


There's a natural cycle with trends. When the trend moves too far one direction, the supply side on the other becomes cheap and you can load up.

A good example is when the Patriots went after TEs, after the league copied them with quick hit WRs.

But the great equalizer is always the rules, and what rules are being emphasized.

I don't ever expect the league to dial back the player safety rules. Pass catchers will never have to worry about getting destroyed like they did 20 years ago. That on its own makes throwing the ball downfield much, much easier than in the 80s and 90s.

Maybe the league loosens up the pass interference and holding rules. But that doesn't seem likely to me either.

So sure, the supply demand pendulum will swing, but unless the ground rules change, I don't expect the return of smash mouth football.



Well, no. Not smash mouth or nothing. But perhaps a more balanced mixture of the two. Defensive players are getting better at technique, they will in-time close the gap that the rules created in my opinion.

If the NFL wants pass-happy offense as a fundamental element of the game, they might just keep modifying the rules to favor robust scoring. So even if defenders close the gap, there's always the possibility that the league just creates a new gap.

I don't know if run-first is as marketable as pass-first. And with the league's marketing alignment with gambling and fantasy football entities, there are real financial incentives for the league to maintain high-scoring games, which are more easily achieved via the passing game.

It's one thing to consider the pendulum effect from a pure football strategy standpoint, where it has a ton of merit; it's another thing entirely to consider to what extent the league will be willing to install guardrails that effectively keep the passing game central to the modern NFL offense.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
ChrisRick : 11/10/2022 12:14 pm : link
In comment 15902298 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15902212 ChrisRick said:


Quote:


In comment 15902196 christian said:


Quote:


There's a natural cycle with trends. When the trend moves too far one direction, the supply side on the other becomes cheap and you can load up.

A good example is when the Patriots went after TEs, after the league copied them with quick hit WRs.

But the great equalizer is always the rules, and what rules are being emphasized.

I don't ever expect the league to dial back the player safety rules. Pass catchers will never have to worry about getting destroyed like they did 20 years ago. That on its own makes throwing the ball downfield much, much easier than in the 80s and 90s.

Maybe the league loosens up the pass interference and holding rules. But that doesn't seem likely to me either.

So sure, the supply demand pendulum will swing, but unless the ground rules change, I don't expect the return of smash mouth football.



Well, no. Not smash mouth or nothing. But perhaps a more balanced mixture of the two. Defensive players are getting better at technique, they will in-time close the gap that the rules created in my opinion.


If the NFL wants pass-happy offense as a fundamental element of the game, they might just keep modifying the rules to favor robust scoring. So even if defenders close the gap, there's always the possibility that the league just creates a new gap.

I don't know if run-first is as marketable as pass-first. And with the league's marketing alignment with gambling and fantasy football entities, there are real financial incentives for the league to maintain high-scoring games, which are more easily achieved via the passing game.

It's one thing to consider the pendulum effect from a pure football strategy standpoint, where it has a ton of merit; it's another thing entirely to consider to what extent the league will be willing to install guardrails that effectively keep the passing game central to the modern NFL offense.


Well that’s true. I was only speaking strategically. And to be quite honest, I did not consider the league’s role playing the larger part of how the game is played.

A naive moment from me.
.  
ChrisRick : 11/10/2022 12:15 pm : link
Sorry Christian, you had already addressed the rules. I misread your post.
...  
christian : 11/10/2022 12:20 pm : link
The Ty Law contact changes went into effect in 2005 and the defenseless receiver rules went into effect in 2009. Those are generally the two watershed changes that opened up the modern passing era.

The subsequent 13 seasons have had the highest passing yards per season in NFL history.

Now, 2022 so far has the lowest YPG in that time at 443. But they ebb flow. 2017 dropped to 449, and then 2018 jumped to 476.

But most of the defenders in the NFL were in Pop Warner when this era started, and learned football in this era, so I wouldn't bet skill changes anything.
...  
christian : 11/10/2022 12:27 pm : link
ChrisRick, our responses went past each other, sorry if that last post is unintentionally snarky.

I think the big factor is the league tipping the scales.
RE: ...  
ChrisRick : 11/10/2022 12:34 pm : link
In comment 15902320 christian said:
Quote:
ChrisRick, our responses went past each other, sorry if that last post is unintentionally snarky.

I think the big factor is the league tipping the scales.


Not snarky :) Thanks. You and GD are right. Here is a more in-depth explanation of my naive thought:

My default thought (default thought which basically means something I decided without giving it much thought) was that the league would cater to real player safety and what the coaches think is good for the game, not the league. I then thought (without thinking, mind you) that all coaches would think that balance between offense and defense is good and allow the ever changing league to change more on strategy and personnel than rules that may be shrouded as player safety.

I do think that coaches are teaching better fundamentals now because of the rules, teaching better technique. Better fundamentals sharpen skill.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 11/10/2022 12:44 pm : link
In comment 15902325 ChrisRick said:
Quote:
In comment 15902320 christian said:


Quote:


ChrisRick, our responses went past each other, sorry if that last post is unintentionally snarky.

I think the big factor is the league tipping the scales.



Not snarky :) Thanks. You and GD are right. Here is a more in-depth explanation of my naive thought:

My default thought (default thought which basically means something I decided without giving it much thought) was that the league would cater to real player safety and what the coaches think is good for the game, not the league. I then thought (without thinking, mind you) that all coaches would think that balance between offense and defense is good and allow the ever changing league to change more on strategy and personnel than rules that may be shrouded as player safety.

I do think that coaches are teaching better fundamentals now because of the rules, teaching better technique. Better fundamentals sharpen skill.


Well 2022 is the lowest pass yards per game since the big rule changes, so maybe something is up. If pass yards trend down a few consecutive years I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume defenses have adjusted.
There is no simple answer to the question  
Matt M. : 11/10/2022 12:58 pm : link
Other factors influence the answer. In a bubble, sure, it probably sets us back. But, if we put a better OL in from and get a #1 WR and we keep Barkley that's a different probable outcome than a similar OL, no threat at WR, and looking for another RB as well.
Back to the Corner