Do you think Schoen called up the scouts this morning and told them not to waste time scouting college QBs because they are set there for the foreseeable future?
Even you know that didn't happen. So why do you believe fans should not talk about it?
in the NFL and had to have one of them to lead you the rest of this season, my guess is that DJ is somewhere between 10-15 on the list. If you had to choose someone to lead you for the next five years, my guess is he is still 10-15, with just a different group in front of him.
If healthy he has fallen in that range his entire career, maybe 15-20, unlikley to break the top 10. The idea that we don't know what we have in DJ really did not make sense last year, and is silly this year. He is a mid-range NFL starter. Good enough to win, not good enough to be why you win. Good enough to keep if the contract is right, but the price of the contract is going up every week. 6 weeks ago I would have happily signed him to 3/$60 and thought he might take it. You would be lucky to get him at 3/$90 at this point.
Hope I am wrong and he is better than that, or that we can get him back cheaper, if we want him. But that is the lay of the land as I see it.
NYG are and should be actively scouting college QBs
Those who think otherwise don't know what they're watching.
I agree. They should try to develop a QB for the backup role if they think of themselves as QB savvy coaches. They probably should have drafted one previously instead of signing Taylor.
Staff does not ask Jonesbto do things he is not good at. It's really that simple, design a game plan around what he and the rest of the offense does well. That is what they are doing and Jones has played very well in this system.
RE: If you lined up all the QBs currently starting
in the NFL and had to have one of them to lead you the rest of this season, my guess is that DJ is somewhere between 10-15 on the list. If you had to choose someone to lead you for the next five years, my guess is he is still 10-15, with just a different group in front of him.
If healthy he has fallen in that range his entire career, maybe 15-20, unlikley to break the top 10. The idea that we don't know what we have in DJ really did not make sense last year, and is silly this year. He is a mid-range NFL starter. Good enough to win, not good enough to be why you win. Good enough to keep if the contract is right, but the price of the contract is going up every week. 6 weeks ago I would have happily signed him to 3/$60 and thought he might take it. You would be lucky to get him at 3/$90 at this point.
Hope I am wrong and he is better than that, or that we can get him back cheaper, if we want him. But that is the lay of the land as I see it.
I agree with you though I think 3year $75-80mil with incentives on top gets it done and is fair to both sides. He's going to want more than 2years to sign anything but he hasn't proven enough to merit a BIG contract. Also don't think he'll have many suitors willing to pay more than that.
WRs - well below average
Rushing (RBs/QB) - way above average
OL - MUCH, MUCH better at run blocking than pass blocking
And they play/will play in cold weather
Why is it so hard to understand that the game plan should revolve around running the ball? I don’t understand why people can’t comprehend that. Stop comparing this team to other NFL teams and using the words “not sustainable.” They are 7-2. Obviously it is.
Jones will never throw for 300+ yards and 3 TDs when he has 20 passing attempts per game. It’s just not going to happen. No QB would. Brady, who leads the league, has almost double the attempts that Jones has.
Meanwhile, he is doing everything necessary to win games for the giants.
I’ll never understand the people on here.
RE: If you lined up all the QBs currently starting
in the NFL and had to have one of them to lead you the rest of this season, my guess is that DJ is somewhere between 10-15 on the list. If you had to choose someone to lead you for the next five years, my guess is he is still 10-15, with just a different group in front of him.
If healthy he has fallen in that range his entire career, maybe 15-20, unlikley to break the top 10. The idea that we don't know what we have in DJ really did not make sense last year, and is silly this year. He is a mid-range NFL starter. Good enough to win, not good enough to be why you win. Good enough to keep if the contract is right, but the price of the contract is going up every week. 6 weeks ago I would have happily signed him to 3/$60 and thought he might take it. You would be lucky to get him at 3/$90 at this point.
Hope I am wrong and he is better than that, or that we can get him back cheaper, if we want him. But that is the lay of the land as I see it.
'Been thinking about this for a few weeks now. I would go with a two year deal starting at $30MM the first year, then $35MM the second year. I'd have a team option at $40MM for year three. If he can get something better than that, then bless his heart and more power to him. But I don't think he'll get something significantly better than that. I think Shoen will start his negotiations below those figures obviously, but those would be my red lines.
RE: two year deal starting at $30MM the first year … $35MM the second
What we are witnessing is a coaching staff that is running an offense completely tailored to Jones' strengths and weaknesses. It's such a simple offense and once we play a good defense, Jones won't be able to move the ball. He still has poor pocket presence and a poor ability to read a defense and know where to go with the ball when his first read isn't there.
The Giants need to upgrade the QB if they want to take the next step from playoff team to true contender.
WRs - well below average
Rushing (RBs/QB) - way above average
OL - MUCH, MUCH better at run blocking than pass blocking
And they play/will play in cold weather
Why is it so hard to understand that the game plan should revolve around running the ball? I don’t understand why people can’t comprehend that. Stop comparing this team to other NFL teams and using the words “not sustainable.” They are 7-2. Obviously it is.
Jones will never throw for 300+ yards and 3 TDs when he has 20 passing attempts per game. It’s just not going to happen. No QB would. Brady, who leads the league, has almost double the attempts that Jones has.
Meanwhile, he is doing everything necessary to win games for the giants.
I’ll never understand the people on here.
Yes and it's exactly why the Giants won't win in the playoffs.
RE: RE: two year deal starting at $30MM the first year … $35MM the second
If Jones is not resigned or tagged, some team will sign him for a much better deal than that.
Jones is finally in a system in which he is being used correctly. Do you think he is anxious to move somewhere else and possibly regress?
I think the terms above are absolutely fair. I don't think any team in FS is going to look at Jones as their long-term answer and pay him top tier QB money. He is playing well in a run-first system that has an elite RB. He is playing smart, error-free football. He is not being asked to carry the offense and I don't think any team looking for that will offer him anything more than a short term deal to bridge them to their next QB.
RE: NYG are and should be actively scouting college QBs
Those who think otherwise don't know what they're watching.
They are scouting everyone. That’s their effing job. And they could realistically lose Jones now even if they want him back-so they damn well better. You’re saying the sky is blue. Congrats.
The only chance you have to win with a guy like Jones
is on his rookie deal. Once you pay him 30-35 million, the team is done. He needs to perfect cast around him to succeed and that only happens if he's making minimal cap dollars.
the coaching staff doesn't trust Jones. They never go for it at the end of the half and they run an extremely conservative offense. Now part of that is definitely the WR's and OL, but part of it is also because they don't trust Jones.
RE: The only chance you have to win with a guy like Jones
is on his rookie deal. Once you pay him 30-35 million, the team is done. He needs to perfect cast around him to succeed and that only happens if he's making minimal cap dollars.
Perfect cast to succeed?? What has he done this year?
For the last 2 years all I heard was how Herbert could step into Jones situation and elevate everyone around him. He looked like dogshit last night with his 2 starting WRs out.
Jones just needs NFL players to make plays...like most other QBs in the NFL.
They know what they have and are adapting an offense based on that. We are not taking shots down the field or giving Jones many reads. For as little as we are doing in the passing game is QBR better be high. If we are going to take that next step we need to get more out of our offense and I am not sure if Jones is the guy that can do that.
Those who think otherwise don't know what they're watching.
They are scouting everyone. That’s their effing job. And they could realistically lose Jones now even if they want him back-so they damn well better. You’re saying the sky is blue. Congrats.
I'm saying believing Jones is the QB to lead NYG to SB wins will be proven off-target. I'm not remotely afraid to lose or replace Jones.
I think he is trending toward being back next year at a number that will make some uncomfortable. That said, it is a little disingenuous to use his INT numbers when he isn't asked to throw the ball often or very far past the LOS. It's no different than pointing at his volume numbers when arguing against him.
If the Giants aren't scouting college QB this year, they should be fired. If Jones were a slamdunk they would have started negotiating at the bye.
RE: RE: RE: NYG are and should be actively scouting college QBs
Those who think otherwise don't know what they're watching.
They are scouting everyone. That’s their effing job. And they could realistically lose Jones now even if they want him back-so they damn well better. You’re saying the sky is blue. Congrats.
I'm saying believing Jones is the QB to lead NYG to SB wins will be proven off-target. I'm not remotely afraid to lose or replace Jones.
Thats a high mark for a QB. Lot of great QBs will never win a SB or even get there.
What we are witnessing is a coaching staff that is running an offense completely tailored to Jones' strengths and weaknesses. It's such a simple offense and once we play a good defense, Jones won't be able to move the ball. He still has poor pocket presence and a poor ability to read a defense and know where to go with the ball when his first read isn't there.
I think you are completely wrong on his reads. He was calling plays at the LoS yesterday. You could hear him making the calls just before the snap. Put it to bed. I did not see any reads that he made yesterday that were wrong. And this one read and done is a crock of crap. I have seen a few videos where the analyst shows Jones looking off safeties or going threw his progressions.
And if you do not think running wins in the playoffs - look at the 1991 super bowl. It depends on how the team is built.
RE: RE: two year deal starting at $30MM the first year … $35MM the second
If Jones is not resigned or tagged, some team will sign him for a much better deal than that.
Because you'd basically be guaranteeing him two tags up front. It's a tiny bit below the tag value (and the tag value +20% for year two on the tag), but it guarantees both years. If DJ plateaus in 2023 even with a better supporting cast, he could find himself in no-man's land for 2024.
It really depends how much Team Jones is willing to bet on himself and how aware he is about his dependence on the roster that surrounds him. He could, instead, be offered the franchise tag and create a scenario where Barkley leaves in FA. Would DJ look as good in 2023 without Barkley? Now let's add just one extra variable to that - let's say Thomas' ankle acts up in 2023 to go along with Barkley being gone. Do you think Team Jones would feel really confident about DJ's ability to earn a substantial contract on the tag with those two key pieces out of the mix?
I'm not saying that DJ should or would accept the contract that is proposed here, but I can think of a few reasonable scenarios where it could be viewed as a win/win. At a minimum, it puts DJ's price tag in line with the market rates - that perception is very valuable for DJ's earning potential going forward. Conversely, if he bets on himself and ends up in the journeyman/bridge tier for 2024, that's a much harder perception to wash off.
Personally, I don't see any compromise contracts for DJ. I think there are only three realistic scenarios as of right now:
1) Giants sign DJ long-term (4+ years). AAV will be at/above $30MM. This is the scenario if JS/BD are comfortable with what they've seen from DJ and confident in him going forward.
2) Giants tag DJ for 2023 and then re-evaluate for 2024 and beyond. This is the scenario is JS/BD are encouraged by some of what DJ has done this year, but still have too much uncertainty (whether that's due to scheme, to lack of weapons, or to DJ himself, or any combination of those).
3) Giants let DJ test free agency unencumbered, and potentially let him walk. This is the scenario where JS/BD feel like they have gameplanned around DJ's skill set all year and would prefer to find a QB who is more naturally aligned with what they want to do offensively.
The third scenario is the only one where I could even fathom DJ accepting a compromise contract (either fewer years, lower AAV, or both), and would only happen if the rest of the league also viewed DJ unfavorably (in terms of contract value).
RE: The only QB in the top ten with fewer TDs is Cooper Rush
What we are witnessing is a coaching staff that is running an offense completely tailored to Jones' strengths and weaknesses. It's such a simple offense and once we play a good defense, Jones won't be able to move the ball. He still has poor pocket presence and a poor ability to read a defense and know where to go with the ball when his first read isn't there.
I think you are completely wrong on his reads. He was calling plays at the LoS yesterday. You could hear him making the calls just before the snap. Put it to bed. I did not see any reads that he made yesterday that were wrong. And this one read and done is a crock of crap. I have seen a few videos where the analyst shows Jones looking off safeties or going threw his progressions.
And if you do not think running wins in the playoffs - look at the 1991 super bowl. It depends on how the team is built.
I disagree completely. Can you show me these videos? Its pretty obvious to me for the most part. It's not every single play, but the majority of plays where his first read isn't open, he panics and either runs of throws a bad pass. He's like a poor mans RG3, IMO.
What we are witnessing is a coaching staff that is running an offense completely tailored to Jones' strengths and weaknesses. It's such a simple offense and once we play a good defense, Jones won't be able to move the ball. He still has poor pocket presence and a poor ability to read a defense and know where to go with the ball when his first read isn't there.
The Giants need to upgrade the QB if they want to take the next step from playoff team to true contender.
Or it could be a coaching staff running an offense tailored to the "team" strengths (crappy WR's, lousy IOL pass blocking, great RB, mobile QB), and it has nothing to do with Jones weaknesses. It is just as reasonable to think that Jones is "playing within himself" to run the offense the team needs to run, and could also run an offense that is more pass happy and open
not only will the Giants not be anywhere near the top of the draft, but there will be 3-4 teams absolutely desperate to find their QB, such as Carolina, Houston, and perhaps Detroit. They will not trade their pick even if the Giants wanted to move up.
Jones will be the QB next year, its just a matter of whether Schoen likes Jones long term.
during obvious passing situations. Meanwhile, you have the highest paid player on the team dropping routine balls and Olinemen jumping offsides on short yardage 3rd downs
There is so little room for error that Jones gets shit for missing one pass that Slayton was open on...and on the next play DJ threw a dime to a WR who just got picked up off the streets.
I can see Jones back next year, a combination of a strong season and a playoff spot for NYG vs not wanting to wait until the draft to secure another QB, add in continuity factor of Jones + Taylor for another season of building up the foundation. I do think the lack of negotiations to this point look like a tell at this stage, while everyone waits to see how he performs vs the best in the NFL down the stretch.
I can see Jones back next year, a combination of a strong season and a playoff spot for NYG vs not wanting to wait until the draft to secure another QB, add in continuity factor of Jones + Taylor for another season of building up the foundation. I do think the lack of negotiations to this point look like a tell at this stage, while everyone waits to see how he performs vs the best in the NFL down the stretch.
I think the odds of Jones being back are around 20-30%.
I don't think this passing offense performance / record discrepancy is sustainable (and not all of that passing offense production performance is on Jones, of course).
and view that as a comparison, without looking into the offenses being run. I mean Davis Mills through the ball 37 times for 319 yds yesterday, does anyone think he played better than Jones?
to running success by a QB. And Jones is doing that very well. So, I wouldn't look at the result as a reflection of Jones's passing production only. Because it isn't.
Nevertheless, by QBR standards, he is currently playing top ten football.
But there is no reason to stop scouting QB prospects who are more physically gifted than Jones.
What we are seeing is a perfect collision of play-calling exploiting what Jones can do and Jones executing that plan.
RE: RE: RE: Do you really think Jones is the answer?
What we are witnessing is a coaching staff that is running an offense completely tailored to Jones' strengths and weaknesses. It's such a simple offense and once we play a good defense, Jones won't be able to move the ball. He still has poor pocket presence and a poor ability to read a defense and know where to go with the ball when his first read isn't there.
I think you are completely wrong on his reads. He was calling plays at the LoS yesterday. You could hear him making the calls just before the snap. Put it to bed. I did not see any reads that he made yesterday that were wrong. And this one read and done is a crock of crap. I have seen a few videos where the analyst shows Jones looking off safeties or going threw his progressions.
And if you do not think running wins in the playoffs - look at the 1991 super bowl. It depends on how the team is built.
I disagree completely. Can you show me these videos? Its pretty obvious to me for the most part. It's not every single play, but the majority of plays where his first read isn't open, he panics and either runs of throws a bad pass. He's like a poor mans RG3, IMO.
Look it up yourself - Baldy and Simms(IIRC) and I believe Skinner. I do not dwell on things too long.
Are you an NFL scout? Did you play college football as QB? For a guy with 66% completion and only 2 INTs, pretty hard to say he panics and makes bad throws on a majority of plays.
I have heard this "he can't make reads" from BBI, but I have not seen outside evidence. You may be right and analysts just keep it to themselves. IDK
I did not play, so I cannot confidently say he can or cannot read - but I can see him stand there for quite a while before he leaves the pocket. So the panic part is BS. He absolutely has his limitations. I think they will move on as much because of the cost of retaining him as a middle of the pack QB. They can likely retain 3 or 4 guys for what it would cost to keep him.
...unless it is some sort of crowning. I still believe that Dabes and Schoen have had a plan since last Spring. I believe that DJ is part of that plan...I also believe that QB1 2023/24 may be found in the draft next Spring.
I do think the lack of negotiations to this point look like a tell at this stage, while everyone waits to see how he performs vs the best in the NFL down the stretch.
This is an important point that a lot of people are ignoring. If they were 100% sold on him there would have been negotiations like there were with Love and Barkley. Jones may be back next year, but the odds aren’t as high as people want to think they are - and the odds of a long term deal are probably lower.
WRs - well below average
Rushing (RBs/QB) - way above average
OL - MUCH, MUCH better at run blocking than pass blocking
And they play/will play in cold weather
Why is it so hard to understand that the game plan should revolve around running the ball? I don’t understand why people can’t comprehend that. Stop comparing this team to other NFL teams and using the words “not sustainable.” They are 7-2. Obviously it is.
Jones will never throw for 300+ yards and 3 TDs when he has 20 passing attempts per game. It’s just not going to happen. No QB would. Brady, who leads the league, has almost double the attempts that Jones has.
Meanwhile, he is doing everything necessary to win games for the giants.
I’ll never understand the people on here.
Yes and it's exactly why the Giants won't win in the playoffs.
Bullshit. They have done exactly that on their way to four super bowls. Are they talented enough to do so this year? Probably not. But this is a model you can win with. Just look NFL playoff history.
and is good at executing a very narrow gameplan that plays to his strengths.
We have been great at keeping games close this year (defense and run game are fantastic), but I am keen to see what happens when we get down by two scores early against a good team.
I don't know if Jones has that in him, especially given his lack of weapons at WR
and is good at executing a very narrow gameplan that plays to his strengths.
We have been great at keeping games close this year (defense and run game are fantastic), but I am keen to see what happens when we get down by two scores early against a good team.
I don't know if Jones has that in him, especially given his lack of weapons at WR
Weren't we down by 2 scores to Tenn, Baltimore, and Green Bay?
I dont think Daboll and Schoen have made up their minds yet
obviously they didn't talk extension (Jones said this himself) like they did Barkley. Ac ouple of somewhat telling things is on 3rd and short, they didn't give Jones a chance to get the 1st, they went to a run play. I know they were running well but still game on the line, who do you want with the ball.
I also think how he plays vs the meat of the NFC East will play a role into how we ALL feel. If he splits with Philly and DAL and wins a playoff game? If he gets crushed by PHI and DAL throwing for 120yds? He's in a real life American Idol fighting for that next contract. Lets see how he does, so far he's showing up.
He’s good enough to win with, but perhaps not good enough to get us through the playoffs and win a Super Bowl. I still see that he’s slow in his progressions and getting the ball out. The Oline can’t pass protect that long. Now, is that a problem of WRs not getting open or is it that he doesn’t trust them to catch a contested ball and not want to put the ball in harms way? Maybe he’s being coached that way to limit the turnovers?! We don’t truly know, but I will say that I’ve seen him make some great throws too. Lastly, I don’t think the Giants are going to be in a position to draft a top 3 QB next year and will have to consider a developmental guy if they want to bring in another QB. Jones looks like he will probably be the guy again next year and as such, we either bite the bullet and Franchise him or is the Transition Tag on him. Not sure the team wants to commit to him long term, at least from what we’ve seen and heard or not, from the GM.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Do you really think Jones is the answer?
What we are witnessing is a coaching staff that is running an offense completely tailored to Jones' strengths and weaknesses. It's such a simple offense and once we play a good defense, Jones won't be able to move the ball. He still has poor pocket presence and a poor ability to read a defense and know where to go with the ball when his first read isn't there.
I think you are completely wrong on his reads. He was calling plays at the LoS yesterday. You could hear him making the calls just before the snap. Put it to bed. I did not see any reads that he made yesterday that were wrong. And this one read and done is a crock of crap. I have seen a few videos where the analyst shows Jones looking off safeties or going threw his progressions.
And if you do not think running wins in the playoffs - look at the 1991 super bowl. It depends on how the team is built.
I disagree completely. Can you show me these videos? Its pretty obvious to me for the most part. It's not every single play, but the majority of plays where his first read isn't open, he panics and either runs of throws a bad pass. He's like a poor mans RG3, IMO.
Look it up yourself - Baldy and Simms(IIRC) and I believe Skinner. I do not dwell on things too long.
Are you an NFL scout? Did you play college football as QB? For a guy with 66% completion and only 2 INTs, pretty hard to say he panics and makes bad throws on a majority of plays.
I have heard this "he can't make reads" from BBI, but I have not seen outside evidence. You may be right and analysts just keep it to themselves. IDK
I did not play, so I cannot confidently say he can or cannot read - but I can see him stand there for quite a while before he leaves the pocket. So the panic part is BS. He absolutely has his limitations. I think they will move on as much because of the cost of retaining him as a middle of the pack QB. They can likely retain 3 or 4 guys for what it would cost to keep him.
and is good at executing a very narrow gameplan that plays to his strengths.
We have been great at keeping games close this year (defense and run game are fantastic), but I am keen to see what happens when we get down by two scores early against a good team.
I don't know if Jones has that in him, especially given his lack of weapons at WR
Weren't we down by 2 scores to Tenn, Baltimore, and Green Bay?
LMAO. Screw the facts. Let’s just stick to our DJ narratives.
Bullshit. They have done exactly that on their way to four super bowls. Are they talented enough to do so this year? Probably not. But this is a model you can win with. Just look NFL playoff history.
The Giants last two super bowls were built on the passing game. The last one they were in fact the worst rushing team in the league. In 2011 he averaged 304 yards per game in the post season.
RE: RE: If you lined up all the QBs currently starting
in the NFL and had to have one of them to lead you the rest of this season, my guess is that DJ is somewhere between 10-15 on the list. If you had to choose someone to lead you for the next five years, my guess is he is still 10-15, with just a different group in front of him.
If healthy he has fallen in that range his entire career, maybe 15-20, unlikley to break the top 10. The idea that we don't know what we have in DJ really did not make sense last year, and is silly this year. He is a mid-range NFL starter. Good enough to win, not good enough to be why you win. Good enough to keep if the contract is right, but the price of the contract is going up every week. 6 weeks ago I would have happily signed him to 3/$60 and thought he might take it. You would be lucky to get him at 3/$90 at this point.
Hope I am wrong and he is better than that, or that we can get him back cheaper, if we want him. But that is the lay of the land as I see it.
I agree with you though I think 3year $75-80mil with incentives on top gets it done and is fair to both sides. He's going to want more than 2years to sign anything but he hasn't proven enough to merit a BIG contract. Also don't think he'll have many suitors willing to pay more than that.
The AAV you're suggesting just does not exist in the NFL QB market. Established starters make >$30M per year; journeymen/bridge QBs make <$20M per year. DJ's agent would be crazy to not start the negotiations north of $30M because he can at least try to force the Giants' hand with the franchise tag by doing so.
It's not impossible that DJ accepts a contract that lands in the $20-$30M AAV gap, but it's extremely unlikely, IMO. And it's even more unlikely that he'd be willing to accept a multi-year deal that lands him in that nonexistent AAV tier. If he's going to accept a prove-it price point, he's likely only going to take it for a year so that he can get right back into FA to try for a larger contract.
Unless he has absolutely no confidence in himself or thinks there's a genuine risk that he could end up as a backup in the near future, DJ has no incentive to accept a 3 year deal with an AAV below $30M. As long as he considers himself a bona fide starting NFL quarterback, he could go year to year and end up north of $80M over the next three years, easily.
All of these contract suggestions that run counter to what the NFL QB market landscape looks like seem silly, IMO. DJ will either make more than $30M annually, or less than $20M annually. And if it's the latter, it'll probably be for another team, IMO.
Bullshit. They have done exactly that on their way to four super bowls. Are they talented enough to do so this year? Probably not. But this is a model you can win with. Just look NFL playoff history.
The Giants last two super bowls were built on the passing game. The last one they were in fact the worst rushing team in the league. In 2011 he averaged 304 yards per game in the post season.
Go look at the playoffs in 2011. Atlanta and then the SB.
Not sure why you continually post incorrect information.
I am far from a DJ hater and I've wanted to see him in a legit offense
that plays to his strengths and this is it. I believe this is the best you will get from DJ. Lets look at the facts:
9 games played this season:
2 games throwing over 200 yards(217 and 202).
He is 23rd in passing yards and 31st in passing yards per game.
He has 8 TD passes which is less than 1 per game.
He is 24th in passing TD's.
The Giants have created a VERY safe offense which allows them to control the game on the ground, not turn the ball over in the air and play stout defense. The formula is working, but I don't know many teams that win like this in the playoffs.
RE: I am far from a DJ hater and I've wanted to see him in a legit offense
The Giants have created a VERY safe offense which allows them to control the game on the ground, not turn the ball over in the air and play stout defense. The formula is working, but I don't know many teams that win like this in the playoffs.
Probably not many, but it is our only chance this year. We need much better WRs in order to say what will work best for us.
with one of the worst supporting casts in the NFL. As O’Hara put it: nobody is doing more with less than DJ.
Some of the takes around here are just odd.
What Jones is showing conclusively is he DOES NOT need everything perfect to win games.
Great post. I know that Ibam enjoying watching games and our QBakes plays when we need him to.
We have arguably the best run game in the NFL. How does he have the worst supporting cast? We have arguably the best LT and a 1st rounder at RT whos played well enough. Our offensive line has been solid. We have an amazing coaching staff that understands what our strengths and weaknesses are and play to that. This is such an exaggerated statement.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It’s the same argument every time
our passing game was the main reason why we won in 2007 and 2011 - especially in 2011. We were a terrible run team in 2011. 2007 was a little better but Eli's arm carried us in the playoffs.
In my view, the OP would be of more value without the call-outs. It is just asking to argue with people.
I have no issues calling out posters who said Barkley sucks and Jones sucks.
As long as you're cool with it being pointed out every time you're wrong. Because that tends to happen with far more frequency, and yet I don't see anyone jumping in at the top of every thread with callouts about your wrong takes like you do. And let's be honest, you aren't even right in the way that you think you are.
For example, most of the issues with SB have been about durability and positional value. Nothing about those concerns have been disproven - the #2 overall draft slot was still too high for a RB for a team on the precipice of a rebuild, and Barkley HAS missed significant time over the years due to injury. Those concerns have been validated. You didn't win that argument.
And for DJ, some of the concerns have been about giving him enough support to succeed once his rookie contract is up, because they were unable to do so when he was cheap and it will only get more difficult as DJ gets more expensive. You haven't been proven right on that one, either. It is still an open question!
You don't have enough credibility to be constantly chirping with these misguided "I told you so" callouts. You've been a pollyanna for years. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but no one is going to trust it as their alarm.
Basically, the Giants are using him like the Titans have used Tannehill. Protect the ball, be efficient, hand off to a great RB.
At this point, I trust the guys running this team to decide if he's got another level they can get to with better players around him. If they bring him back, it's because they believe in them and who would I be to argue?
I wouldn't be afraid to move on from him either. You don't want your team's ceiling to be held back by the QB and if they decide he would be doing that, it's best to move on.
Either way, I'm enjoying how he's playing this year. He's been smart, tough and dependable and is one reason this team is winning games.
Basically, the Giants are using him like the Titans have used Tannehill. Protect the ball, be efficient, hand off to a great RB.
At this point, I trust the guys running this team to decide if he's got another level they can get to with better players around him. If they bring him back, it's because they believe in them and who would I be to argue?
I wouldn't be afraid to move on from him either. You don't want your team's ceiling to be held back by the QB and if they decide he would be doing that, it's best to move on.
Either way, I'm enjoying how he's playing this year. He's been smart, tough and dependable and is one reason this team is winning games.
I can certainly get behind this message. Well said, IMO.
Basically, the Giants are using him like the Titans have used Tannehill. Protect the ball, be efficient, hand off to a great RB.
At this point, I trust the guys running this team to decide if he's got another level they can get to with better players around him. If they bring him back, it's because they believe in them and who would I be to argue?
I wouldn't be afraid to move on from him either. You don't want your team's ceiling to be held back by the QB and if they decide he would be doing that, it's best to move on.
Either way, I'm enjoying how he's playing this year. He's been smart, tough and dependable and is one reason this team is winning games.
+1. I agree. This is the point I keep trying to make. The only ones who really know what Jones can fully do are Daboll/Kafka/Schoen. We will see what they think is the right thing with him moving forward. Right now they are winning with a game plan around our team strengths/weaknesses, not necessarily Jones.
Basically, the Giants are using him like the Titans have used Tannehill. Protect the ball, be efficient, hand off to a great RB.
At this point, I trust the guys running this team to decide if he's got another level they can get to with better players around him. If they bring him back, it's because they believe in them and who would I be to argue?
I wouldn't be afraid to move on from him either. You don't want your team's ceiling to be held back by the QB and if they decide he would be doing that, it's best to move on.
Either way, I'm enjoying how he's playing this year. He's been smart, tough and dependable and is one reason this team is winning games.
I think this is a great post, and I agree with putting faith in whichever way JS & BD decide to go at QB.
Vindicated whether Jones is resigned or not. But the answer on who is correct if it was the right move is still a couple of years down the line. I don’t get the premature “I was right chirping” about a contract that hasn’t even begun negotiations.
There’s a lot to discuss about the contract and what it’ll be worth, but nobody can claim being right yet.
I think JS should be scouting QB's. He will weigh that against what he has in Jones. I am in favor of a rookie if they believe in him. The team is closer than some think and the cost at the position is a big deal imv.
We will see how it plays out. The QBGC will be wrong as usual as will Gatorade who is in that group but at least we get some nice stats and spreadsheets of data.
Tough choice for the Giants coming up.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Do you really think Jones is the answer?
I did not play, so I cannot confidently say he can or cannot read - but I can see him stand there for quite a while before he leaves the pocket. So the panic part is BS. He absolutely has his limitations. I think they will move on as much because of the cost of retaining him as a middle of the pack QB. They can likely retain 3 or 4 guys for what it would cost to keep him.
Got it, so you made it up lol
Made up what? That I saw a few videos where they show DJ making reads? I saw them. I believe that someone posted them here for viewing and I am absolutely certain that Baldy
was one of the analysts....if you don't want to believe that, that is not on me. That is on you. Why would I make it up?
But as I said, the only place I have ever heard that Jones is a one read QB is on BBI. It may be true, but I have only read it here.
I am not looking to get into it, but what about your claim on panic and bad throws. Where is that evidence? 66% completion percentage, 2 Ints says otherwise. And we all know how many drops per game there are. You said he makes one read, panics and runs...
1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
applying a lot of weight to the running ability of a QB, Justin Fields is now 11th in the NFL in QBR. He's having a brilliant year running.
If the Bears get some better parts and continues to improve his passing, Fields is on a collision course for a top 6-8 QB in the NFL.
Really interesting what's going on in Chicago. They turned Fields loose running 4 weeks back and its changed their season. But he is taking shots that for example LJax never does.
I don't think that will be sustainable, but for the sake of my fantasy season I hope it at least lasts the year.
He’s basically tied for last in passing yards and passing tds. I would assume if he throws more, the INT problem will be back and his QBR would drop significantly.
Before the season started, I think our nightmare scenario for the season was that the Giants would win just enough games to not be able to draft a QB and/or the OL would be so terrible we couldn’t evaluate DJ. I think this front office will guarantee their ability to truly be able to evaluate DJ by trading Toney and not signing a WR (OBJ, etc).
I think we’re going into 2023 not knowing if DJ is a franchise QB or not. I think the answer will be to tag him.
1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
RE: RE: RE: 2022 Team Passing Offense, yards per game
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
Well he is running an offense that is leading us to wins, so yes with the team he has - I think he is quite happy.
RE: RE: RE: RE: 2022 Team Passing Offense, yards per game
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
Well he is running an offense that is leading us to wins, so yes with the team he has - I think he is quite happy.
I can't disagree, but the luck will eventually run out. We should be preparing to beat the best teams in the league, not the league's pushovers.
RE: RE: RE: 2022 Team Passing Offense, yards per game
1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
My "brain box" really thinks Daboll wants to win, and when looking at our lousy WRs, our poor pass protection of the IOL, Barkley, and our mobile QB, this is the best way to do it. Why would you throw it 35-40 times with our WRs on the receiving end, and limit Barkley's touches?
Can't your "brain box" understand that this may not be Jones specific, like your heavily biased opinion says, and may be a decision made by looking at the big picture?
But to beat the Eagles, Vikings, Cowboys and likely whoever they play in the postseason the current formula won’t work. They’re going to have to push the ball vertically more often. The two times they had to this year, Dallas (worst oline game of the year) and Seattle it didn’t look pretty.
Not knowing if your current QB is capable of doing that makes shelling out a long term deal extremely difficult. Schoen and Daboll likely see it the same way, else they would have had extension discussions already.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: 2022 Team Passing Offense, yards per game
1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
My "brain box" really thinks Daboll wants to win, and when looking at our lousy WRs, our poor pass protection of the IOL, Barkley, and our mobile QB, this is the best way to do it. Why would you throw it 35-40 times with our WRs on the receiving end, and limit Barkley's touches?
Can't your "brain box" understand that this may not be Jones specific, like your heavily biased opinion says, and may be a decision made by looking at the big picture?
the OL and WR excuses are starting to whither away. The line is much better and receivers, esp Slayton, are playing better, and we are still left with a remedial passing game. Jones is very good running the ball, he is efficient when he doesn't have to pass much, and he has never demonstrated the ability to lead a high flying / high production passing attack. You have to agree with those observations. And until he demonstrates he can do the latter on a consistent basis, he's not worth anything but lower tier starter dollars.
the OL and WR excuses are starting to whither away. The line is much better and receivers, esp Slayton, are playing better, and we are still left with a remedial passing game. Jones is very good running the ball, he is efficient when he doesn't have to pass much, and he has never demonstrated the ability to lead a high flying / high production passing attack. You have to agree with those observations. And until he demonstrates he can do the latter on a consistent basis, he's not worth anything but lower tier starter dollars.
LOL, excuses? What WRs are playing better other than Slayton who is still number 3 at best? You mean like the David Sills started 8 games this year and was so bad, he was inactive this week. You mean Kenny Golladay is playing better? LOL!
you don't see a correlation to the weapons on offense and those rankings? A bunch of those teams in the back half are going to the playoffs.
You aren't proving anything, not sure if you know that.
To be fair though, outside of Jackson which of those other QBs in the back half would people take here?
Not many. But my point is that the goal of a Mahomes/Allen doesn't = everything else bad. If you don't have an elite passer and/or elite pass catchers, you are going to have to find another way to win and there's a bunch of teams that are doing that right now.
RE: RE: RE: RE: 2022 Team Passing Offense, yards per game
1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
My "brain box" really thinks Daboll wants to win, and when looking at our lousy WRs, our poor pass protection of the IOL, Barkley, and our mobile QB, this is the best way to do it. Why would you throw it 35-40 times with our WRs on the receiving end, and limit Barkley's touches?
Can't your "brain box" understand that this may not be Jones specific, like your heavily biased opinion says, and may be a decision made by looking at the big picture?
I agree completely
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: 2022 Team Passing Offense, yards per game
the OL and WR excuses are starting to whither away. The line is much better and receivers, esp Slayton, are playing better, and we are still left with a remedial passing game. Jones is very good running the ball, he is efficient when he doesn't have to pass much, and he has never demonstrated the ability to lead a high flying / high production passing attack. You have to agree with those observations. And until he demonstrates he can do the latter on a consistent basis, he's not worth anything but lower tier starter dollars.
You hurt your argument with your "no more excuses" comment. Our second leading receiver yesterday was literally signed last week, while our supposed #1 WR Golladay is dropping passes left and right (passes that would have made Jones' numbers look a lot better, by the way). Our best TE and two starting OL are still missing, and those taking their places are either journeymen or working back from injury. I also wouldn't say the line has "improved" based on a good rushing day against the worst rush D in the league. They certainly weren't opening holes in Seattle 2 weeks ago.
The fact is, the Giants are playing a specific style that they think gives them the best chance to win. You seem convinced they're doing it because they can't count on Jones. I'm not convinced Jones is the answer either, but he's playing error-free football and making positive plays with a short-handed cast, which is more than a lot of critics said he was capable of before the season started.
applying a lot of weight to the running ability of a QB, Justin Fields is now 11th in the NFL in QBR. He's having a brilliant year running.
If the Bears get some better parts and continues to improve his passing, Fields is on a collision course for a top 6-8 QB in the NFL.
Really interesting what's going on in Chicago. They turned Fields loose running 4 weeks back and its changed their season. But he is taking shots that for example LJax never does.
I don't think that will be sustainable, but for the sake of my fantasy season I hope it at least lasts the year.
I agree. Getsy, the OC, has given him the green light to run, run, run. Fields is a big, fast kid who isn't afraid to lay the lumber on defensive players. But that needs to change, and he needs to play more like LJax with his decision making.
Further, that Bears OL is a disgrace, too. Despite that, Fields is making some unreal plays with both his arm and legs.
Look, this is where the NFL is. You need multi-faceted QBs who can make plays with their arms and legs. That's why big credit goes to Daboll/Kafka for creating an offense that really suits Jones right now and optimizes his running skills.
That people think the coaches, GM and players care more about advanced passing stats than wins. It is really a foolish take and the motivation for it considering the context of the last few years of posting from certain members, it is obvious why.
Look, this is where the NFL is. You need multi-faceted QBs who can make plays with their arms and legs. That's why big credit goes to Daboll/Kafka for creating an offense that really suits Jones right now and optimizes his running skills.
Yep. I thought Fields was lost. He has looked good since the Giants game.
RE: I dont think Daboll and Schoen have made up their minds yet
obviously they didn't talk extension (Jones said this himself) like they did Barkley. Ac ouple of somewhat telling things is on 3rd and short, they didn't give Jones a chance to get the 1st, they went to a run play. I know they were running well but still game on the line, who do you want with the ball.
I also think how he plays vs the meat of the NFC East will play a role into how we ALL feel. If he splits with Philly and DAL and wins a playoff game? If he gets crushed by PHI and DAL throwing for 120yds? He's in a real life American Idol fighting for that next contract. Lets see how he does, so far he's showing up.
Why would we negotiate with Jones at this point? What you think does not really matter .
1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
My "brain box" really thinks Daboll wants to win, and when looking at our lousy WRs, our poor pass protection of the IOL, Barkley, and our mobile QB, this is the best way to do it. Why would you throw it 35-40 times with our WRs on the receiving end, and limit Barkley's touches?
Can't your "brain box" understand that this may not be Jones specific, like your heavily biased opinion says, and may be a decision made by looking at the big picture?
the OL and WR excuses are starting to whither away. The line is much better and receivers, esp Slayton, are playing better, and we are still left with a remedial passing game. Jones is very good running the ball, he is efficient when he doesn't have to pass much, and he has never demonstrated the ability to lead a high flying / high production passing attack. You have to agree with those observations. And until he demonstrates he can do the latter on a consistent basis, he's not worth anything but lower tier starter dollars.
Your dislike for DJ has not withered away but your reasoning is questionable. I do like the high/flying production passing attack. What ever that is.
Let me ask you a question. First context. Daniel Jones has thrown the fewest pass completions in the NFL of over 20 yards plus among starters who have started at least 7 games. Kenny Pickett has one fewer, but he's only started 6 games.
Bailey Zappe and Jameis Winston have a combined 7 starts, and have more than double the number of 20+ yard pass completions with 27. DJ has 12. Jameis has 3 starts and 13 completions with of more than 20+ yards.
In terms of total air yards, the only NFL starters with fewer are those that have missed games because of injury or because of benching: Zach Wilson, Kenny Pickett, Ryan Tannehill, Mac Jones, Dak Prescott, Baker Mayfield.
Is this the offense you think Daboll and Kafka want to run?
His air yards are among the bottom, his yards per attempt are among the bottom, his attempts are among the bottom, passing TDs among the bottom.
Yet we are waxing poetic and I'm reading about his passer rating of all things...HIS PASSER RATING, which is about as meaningless a stat in football.
Do you know what happens to DJ's passer rating if Jalen Pitre makes the tackle on Slayton? Neither do I. But if Slayton doesn't break that tackle (on a 3-yard completion) and take it to the house and we simply remove that YAC and score from DJ's ledger, his rating is 102.33.
Now I'm not one for if my aunt had a penis she'd be my uncle arguments, but this just goes to show how insignificant this stat is. If Slayton's great play results in a 50 point bump for Jones on his passer rating, why are we heaping the kudos on Jones. Great play by Slayton! He threw the ball 17 times. Let's be real. Passer rating has some value when you are calculating it over the course of a season, or half a season...large numbers need to go in to the calculus for it to be worth anything. 17 attempts...it's a nothing-burger.
I give DJ a ton of credit for managing the game well. For not turning the ball over. He's proven the Giants can win some games as long as he continues to do those things and as long as the defense plays well and Saquon is here and healthy.
But Saquon had 36 touches yesterday. They ran the ball more than double the amount of times they asked Jones to throw it. Again, I ask...is this the offense you think Daboll and Kafka want to run. Will this type of offense be sustainable, and will it win in the playoffs?
Yes, I want to see better receivers. I want to see what Jones can do in a passing game that looks more like KC's or Buffalo's.
But I've watched that game, and I didn't come away with, "wow, Jones played so great, he really won us that game."
What won yesterday was Saquon, Dexter Lawrence, Leo Williams, Julian Love, and maybe then...DJ for managing the game well, getting some timely scrambles and not turning the ball over.
And this is the last thing I'll say...you're watching one of the most mediocre (to use an optimistic word) passing offenses in the NFL with mediocre scoring output weekly and every week all we read is how great DJ is. Without Saquon, this offense would sink to the very bottom of the league. He is keeping this team afloat offensively, and everything that works is playing off of Saquon.
Good post and many of those important points have been mentioned during the season. This absolutely can't be the offense Daboll/Kafka want for the medium and long term.
BTW, the OP is talking about QBR, which is a significantly different approach than the traditional Passer Rating formula.
Good post and many of those important points have been mentioned during the season. This absolutely can't be the offense Daboll/Kafka want for the medium and long term.
BTW, the OP is talking about QBR, which is a significantly different approach than the traditional Passer Rating formula.
Yeah I realize that my post wasn't clear on who exactly I was responding to (intentionally). I was not responding to the OP in general but generically to posters that have been pumping up that stat yesterday and today and to the ones calling out anyone that dares to do anything but heap accolades on DJ.
Without turning those two short passes into 30 and 50 yard games I’m not sure the Giants win yesterday.
That's MORE than fair. You're completely right. In terms of credit, Slayton is ahead of Jones because the Giants needed that TD when Slayton made that play.
Jones did extend some drives and controlled the game, he gets some credit, but he's down the list some.
Its not a "tell" that they havent signed Jones yet
this was always going to be a yearlong evaluation because of the new system, work-in-progress OL and no capable WRs
And as I have said since January - who they can find to replace him must be factored into the equation of whether or not to sign him. The fact that guys like Levis, Van Dyke, and other college QBs have been lousy complicates the question, as does the winning the Giants are doing
Fields - this is what Greg Cosell said yesterday about him:
@GregCosell breaks down what he is seeing from Fields and the Bears on tape: “Their pass game is essentially remedial and elementary…”
Jones is having a great year. He isn't. But he is winning and that is all Daboll is asking him to do.
I believe that is why he will not be re-signed. But to just whisk away the incompetence at the WR position is disingenuous too.
If this is in response to me I haven't done this. I've always said that the lack of talent at WR matters. It's certainly relevant to the overall numbers, the offensive design, all of it. It also doesn't mean with a big leap forward in terms of receiver talent, that DJ will also look as dynamic a passer as even Kirk Cousins.
Let's look back two years ago and consider Jalen Hurts and his Phillies. The team was not sold on him. It was a running team. He was considered a good solid running QB who wasn't accurate. The team was considering trading to find a better QB. Now that they have a great offensive line and two top WRs, Hurts is having a great year and Philly is undefeated.
Let's consider the case for Tua. A weak-armed QB who couldn't throw the deep ball. Once again, the team was looking to replace him. Now he's looking fine that he has 2 very dangerous WRs in Waddle and Hill.
Let's now consider the case for QBs who are unquestionably great, who now have porous offensive lines and/or no WRs of any consequence like Rodgers who has been getting sacked and has no decent WRs. Like Brady who lost his security to remain a pocket passer when his Oline deteriorated. Like Stafford whose Oline also deteriorated and he has no time to find his receivers as easily and as often as he would like.
That leaves the GM with two options. Option #1 is you keep the QB and do all you can to build an adequate offensive line and elite receivers through the draft or free agency.
Option #2 is you draft a new QB. However, this has its drawbacks because you will probably have to mortgage future draft picks, which eliminates the team's chances for improving the offensive line and obtaining elite WRs. The new QB will therefore not be in the best environment to succeed until the team can provide him with adequate protections and elite WRs. Chances are slim that will happen immediately. There is also the risk that the new QB may not even be as good as the one he is supposed to replace.
The GM and coach must make good decisions as to what is best for the team. In my opinion, if you already have a QB who has led his team to a 7-2 record, imagine how even more successful he could be if you protect him better and add better talent at WR and/or other positions of weakness. Drafting a new QB delays improving the other positions. That then requires adding talent through FA, which we all know is expensive and is no guarantee. Not all good players thrive in a different environment and system.
he will certainly never be the passer that Cousins is
but he has won games in a manner Cousins can't. Its reasonable to assume Jones would be a better QB with a Justin Jefferson on the field. How much better is the golden question.
Jones is having a great year. He isn't. But he is winning and that is all Daboll is asking him to do.
I believe that is why he will not be re-signed. But to just whisk away the incompetence at the WR position is disingenuous too.
If this is in response to me I haven't done this. I've always said that the lack of talent at WR matters. It's certainly relevant to the overall numbers, the offensive design, all of it. It also doesn't mean with a big leap forward in terms of receiver talent, that DJ will also look as dynamic a passer as even Kirk Cousins.
Two or three games back Sy made a comment saying something to the effect of what Jones would look like with better than near league bottom WR talent. I think it was the Ravens game.
I am with you in that I think he is gone after this year. Not the type QB Daboll wants. And there is no doubt Daboll and Kafka are managing the offense in a certain conservative way and it is a combination or reasons plus when you have a Saquon Barkley you lean in him.
But I do not think you can not expect Jones to have better numbers if he had mid-level WR corp - or even just one Stefan Diggs or a CeeDee Lamb.
That people think the coaches, GM and players care more about advanced passing stats than wins. It is really a foolish take and the motivation for it considering the context of the last few years of posting from certain members, it is obvious why.
I find it hysterical that fans think coaches and GMs simplify their QB evaluation to the point where team wins are even remotely close to the most important factor for any individual player.
It's fine if fans want to take such a simplistic approach to say that they don't want to fix what appears to be unbroken, but the coaches and front office executives are privy to what factors they're handcuffing themselves with in order to keep that scenario unbroken in the first place.
The short version is that I feel very confident in saying that the team's W/L record may help DJ's cause in his contract negotiations but will be far from the top factor the team considers when they are faced with a long view of their future at the QB position, especially when they are winning in a way that asks relatively little of the QB, compared to the offensive schemes with which our offensive coaches share their pedigree (Buffalo and Kansas City, most notably).
That people think the coaches, GM and players care more about advanced passing stats than wins. It is really a foolish take and the motivation for it considering the context of the last few years of posting from certain members, it is obvious why.
I find it hysterical that fans think coaches and GMs simplify their QB evaluation to the point where team wins are even remotely close to the most important factor for any individual player.
It's fine if fans want to take such a simplistic approach to say that they don't want to fix what appears to be unbroken, but the coaches and front office executives are privy to what factors they're handcuffing themselves with in order to keep that scenario unbroken in the first place.
The short version is that I feel very confident in saying that the team's W/L record may help DJ's cause in his contract negotiations but will be far from the top factor the team considers when they are faced with a long view of their future at the QB position, especially when they are winning in a way that asks relatively little of the QB, compared to the offensive schemes with which our offensive coaches share their pedigree (Buffalo and Kansas City, most notably).
I feel confident that by far, the most meaningful stat to all of ownership, management and players is wins. So we disagree on a profound level on this topic. Not a lot reason for us to unpack it.
Jones is having a great year. He isn't. But he is winning and that is all Daboll is asking him to do.
I believe that is why he will not be re-signed. But to just whisk away the incompetence at the WR position is disingenuous too.
If this is in response to me I haven't done this. I've always said that the lack of talent at WR matters. It's certainly relevant to the overall numbers, the offensive design, all of it. It also doesn't mean with a big leap forward in terms of receiver talent, that DJ will also look as dynamic a passer as even Kirk Cousins.
Yes but this is my point. You don't know that he won't look better than Cousins. We don't know, and for posters to continually make believe they do know is nonsense. Daboll/Kafka probably have an idea, but thats about it.
After the season Daboll and Schoen will decide, and then we will know what their opinion is, because I do agree this is not the offense moving forward. Whatever they think I am fine with. I just get a little tired of the constant bashing by people who really have no idea what the truth is
That people think the coaches, GM and players care more about advanced passing stats than wins. It is really a foolish take and the motivation for it considering the context of the last few years of posting from certain members, it is obvious why.
That's not at all what we are saying, and I think you know it.
That people think the coaches, GM and players care more about advanced passing stats than wins. It is really a foolish take and the motivation for it considering the context of the last few years of posting from certain members, it is obvious why.
I find it hysterical that fans think coaches and GMs simplify their QB evaluation to the point where team wins are even remotely close to the most important factor for any individual player.
It's fine if fans want to take such a simplistic approach to say that they don't want to fix what appears to be unbroken, but the coaches and front office executives are privy to what factors they're handcuffing themselves with in order to keep that scenario unbroken in the first place.
The short version is that I feel very confident in saying that the team's W/L record may help DJ's cause in his contract negotiations but will be far from the top factor the team considers when they are faced with a long view of their future at the QB position, especially when they are winning in a way that asks relatively little of the QB, compared to the offensive schemes with which our offensive coaches share their pedigree (Buffalo and Kansas City, most notably).
I feel confident that by far, the most meaningful stat to all of ownership, management and players is wins. So we disagree on a profound level on this topic. Not a lot reason for us to unpack it.
Fair enough. Let me know how you think they should valuate DJ for his next contract with the approach you have in mind.
He already beat Rodgers H2H, so if the Giants also finish the season with more wins than Green Bay, is it safe to say you'd endorse $50M+ AAV for DJ since he'd have better numbers in your only valuable metric?
Let's look back two years ago and consider Jalen Hurts and his Phillies. The team was not sold on him. It was a running team. He was considered a good solid running QB who wasn't accurate. The team was considering trading to find a better QB. Now that they have a great offensive line and two top WRs, Hurts is having a great year and Philly is undefeated.
Let's consider the case for Tua. A weak-armed QB who couldn't throw the deep ball. Once again, the team was looking to replace him. Now he's looking fine that he has 2 very dangerous WRs in Waddle and Hill.
Let's now consider the case for QBs who are unquestionably great, who now have porous offensive lines and/or no WRs of any consequence like Rodgers who has been getting sacked and has no decent WRs. Like Brady who lost his security to remain a pocket passer when his Oline deteriorated. Like Stafford whose Oline also deteriorated and he has no time to find his receivers as easily and as often as he would like.
That leaves the GM with two options. Option #1 is you keep the QB and do all you can to build an adequate offensive line and elite receivers through the draft or free agency.
Option #2 is you draft a new QB. However, this has its drawbacks because you will probably have to mortgage future draft picks, which eliminates the team's chances for improving the offensive line and obtaining elite WRs. The new QB will therefore not be in the best environment to succeed until the team can provide him with adequate protections and elite WRs. Chances are slim that will happen immediately. There is also the risk that the new QB may not even be as good as the one he is supposed to replace.
The GM and coach must make good decisions as to what is best for the team. In my opinion, if you already have a QB who has led his team to a 7-2 record, imagine how even more successful he could be if you protect him better and add better talent at WR and/or other positions of weakness. Drafting a new QB delays improving the other positions. That then requires adding talent through FA, which we all know is expensive and is no guarantee. Not all good players thrive in a different environment and system.
Your looking at option 2 in a very narrow way.
Really it's more than 2 options.
IF you have the opportunity to move up and get a truly elite franchise QB (you never know), then you do it. You absolutely should trade nearly whatever it takes to get him. The guy I most project at this early date to be a superstar QB in the NFL is Hendon Hooker.
There's a long process to go, however, and people seem to be all over the map on where Hooker will go in the draft. Stroud and Young seem to be ahead of him. I would love for that scenario to be the case on draft day.
Beane manipulated the draft in 2018 in a masterclass fashion, with Schoen having a front-row seat (and perhaps plenty of involvement in getting the deals done).
Before the draft, he moved up from the 21st spot to 12 by trading Cordy Glenn, the 21st pick, and a 5th rounder to the Bengals.
They traded Tyrod Taylor to the Browns for a third round pick.
Then they traded with the Buccaneers to move up to the 7th pick from 12 (and a 7th rounder) by sending the Bucs #12 and two 2nd round picks, where they took Josh Allen.
So many things are possible in the draft, it doesn't need to be distilled down to we have to trade away the next two years' worth of premium picks plus to move up from the 20's to #1 overall.
And we have the benefit of a GM who has a creative background when it comes to approaching the draft.
Further, Tyrod Taylor or another QB can be a bridge and still win NFL games while a rookie redshirts.
Or DJ could be a bridge. Or you can roll with DJ for awhile and see if you can build a championship-caliber team around him and do it that way. But at any rate, even if it's not with a first round pick, you have to get another young QB in here with a live arm.
The Giants aren’t going to shell out a multi year deal
The owner has stated as much that Jones has been given quite the shitty opportunity to succeed. They have tried to change that, but their attempts to do so have not succeeded to the extent the team had hoped for. Jones was still getting sacked a lot or hurried a lot. No one even needs to talk about the lack of support for giving Jones adequate receivers to throw to. Right now he has practice squad level players at WR and TE.
It is still up in the air as to what he would be like after getting them. He still hasn't been fairly evaluated. Some may believe he's never going to be THE guy. Some believe he could be THE guy. Nobody knows for sure until you give him what every QB needs.
Certainly, the Giants will do their due diligence in evaluating the QBs in the draft or free agency to see if there is someone who can improve the team. They do this daily. But as I said before, they have to weigh all the factors and costs involved in order to do the right thing that is best for the team.
Those who think otherwise don't know what they're watching.
They are scouting everyone. That’s their effing job. And they could realistically lose Jones now even if they want him back-so they damn well better. You’re saying the sky is blue. Congrats.
This was a response to the OP stating that the sky was purple. If you've been on this site for any amount of time you would understand why that is necessary.
That people think the coaches, GM and players care more about advanced passing stats than wins. It is really a foolish take and the motivation for it considering the context of the last few years of posting from certain members, it is obvious why.
That's not at all what we are saying, and I think you know it.
Fair, I do, my post isn't entirely fair, but the smart people that post here are not being fair either. Throwing a little back at you all. You don't get to 7 and without solid QB play. He has 2 ints. His pocket presence is objectively improved.
I believe will be 9 and in 2 weeks. I think we will go on to SWEEP Philly.
Yes, sweep.
Speculation, sure.
Have you considered that posiblity at all?
Why?
Bias.
This team is built to win in the weather.
They have PROVEN they have the discipline to win ugly.
Leave room in your opinion to be wrong.
This Jalen Hurts vs Daniel Jones debate only happens on BBI
Jalen Hurts has become and objectively better passing QB than Daniel Jones and he will get a deal from Philly. He is far ahead of Jones in yds/game, Y/A, Y/C, TD%.
RE: This Jalen Hurts vs Daniel Jones debate only happens on BBI
Jalen Hurts has become and objectively better passing QB than Daniel Jones and he will get a deal from Philly. He is far ahead of Jones in yds/game, Y/A, Y/C, TD%.
different offenses, different personnel, different game plans.
That people think the coaches, GM and players care more about advanced passing stats than wins. It is really a foolish take and the motivation for it considering the context of the last few years of posting from certain members, it is obvious why.
That's not at all what we are saying, and I think you know it.
Fair, I do, my post isn't entirely fair, but the smart people that post here are not being fair either. Throwing a little back at you all. You don't get to 7 and without solid QB play. He has 2 ints. His pocket presence is objectively improved.
I believe will be 9 and in 2 weeks. I think we will go on to SWEEP Philly.
Yes, sweep.
Speculation, sure.
Have you considered that posiblity at all?
Why?
Bias.
This team is built to win in the weather.
They have PROVEN they have the discipline to win ugly.
Leave room in your opinion to be wrong.
I always leave room for my opinion to be wrong. I don't care if I'm wrong. I want the Giants to be contenders for multiple SB titles. I am enjoying the season and the wins, but I think we're a paper tiger that will get summarily squashed in the playoffs.
RE: RE: This Jalen Hurts vs Daniel Jones debate only happens on BBI
Jalen Hurts has become and objectively better passing QB than Daniel Jones and he will get a deal from Philly. He is far ahead of Jones in yds/game, Y/A, Y/C, TD%.
different offenses, different personnel, different game plans.
Come on, you are better than this, I think.
And I would add, I am completely surprised by Hurts' development as a passer. I never thought it would happen.
RE: RE: RE: This Jalen Hurts vs Daniel Jones debate only happens on BBI
To me it does not add anything positive. It just continues to the 'I told you so' cycle.
For many this site provides a source for self-worth. They call out others when anything supports that they are right, or hide or exaggerate when things prove they may be wrong. It's sad.
The one thing these folks won't ever do is change their opinion based on additional facts. That's why the "one view" posters on this site are the ones to mainly ignore. You are talking to people working on faith not facts.
Jalen Hurts has become and objectively better passing QB than Daniel Jones and he will get a deal from Philly. He is far ahead of Jones in yds/game, Y/A, Y/C, TD%.
We get to play the games. Let's see how they do head to head. Hurts is objectably having the better year.
Conceded.
If Jones sweeps him, with the comparative rosters, I would give the edge to Jones at that point.
RE: RE: RE: RE: 2022 Team Passing Offense, yards per game
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
Well he is running an offense that is leading us to wins, so yes with the team he has - I think he is quite happy.
He'll be happier with a new QB next year. I have no idea what exactly goes into QBR but it must just be short completions and turnovers. Sure can't be passing yards, passing TDs, air yards, YPA, team passing, team scoring....
RE: RE: This Jalen Hurts vs Daniel Jones debate only happens on BBI
Jalen Hurts has become and objectively better passing QB than Daniel Jones and he will get a deal from Philly. He is far ahead of Jones in yds/game, Y/A, Y/C, TD%.
We get to play the games. Let's see how they do head to head. Hurts is objectably having the better year.
Conceded.
If Jones sweeps him, with the comparative rosters, I would give the edge to Jones at that point.
QBs to play head-to-head. QBs play against defenses. Which team wins doesn't tell you anything about which QB is better. It tells you which team played better.
RE: RE: RE: RE: This Jalen Hurts vs Daniel Jones debate only happens on BBI
And I would add, I am completely surprised by Hurts' development as a passer. I never thought it would happen.
Theres no doubt Hurts has improved, but he has great weapons and a great OL. Those things matter greatly.
Of course they do. Nobody claims they don't matter. But Hurts' tape is impressive. He's making difficult throws beyond the hashes into tight windows with regularity. I don't know what to say about his progression. It's probably not as good as Allen's year 3 progression, but it is stunning nonetheless. Maybe he falls off, rest of season. But he doesn't look like a fluke. And if he continues to win and put up impressive numbers, he'll get some kind of juicy extension.
That people think the coaches, GM and players care more about advanced passing stats than wins. It is really a foolish take and the motivation for it considering the context of the last few years of posting from certain members, it is obvious why.
That's not at all what we are saying, and I think you know it.
Fair, I do, my post isn't entirely fair, but the smart people that post here are not being fair either. Throwing a little back at you all. You don't get to 7 and without solid QB play. He has 2 ints. His pocket presence is objectively improved.
I believe will be 9 and in 2 weeks. I think we will go on to SWEEP Philly.
Yes, sweep.
Speculation, sure.
Have you considered that posiblity at all?
Why?
Bias.
This team is built to win in the weather.
They have PROVEN they have the discipline to win ugly.
Leave room in your opinion to be wrong.
I always leave room for my opinion to be wrong. I don't care if I'm wrong. I want the Giants to be contenders for multiple SB titles. I am enjoying the season and the wins, but I think we're a paper tiger that will get summarily squashed in the playoffs.
After a d3caf3 of futity a playoff game will be quite welcome.
Am not sold on the belief that Jones cannot win in the post season.
RE: RE: RE: This Jalen Hurts vs Daniel Jones debate only happens on BBI
Jalen Hurts has become and objectively better passing QB than Daniel Jones and he will get a deal from Philly. He is far ahead of Jones in yds/game, Y/A, Y/C, TD%.
We get to play the games. Let's see how they do head to head. Hurts is objectably having the better year.
Conceded.
If Jones sweeps him, with the comparative rosters, I would give the edge to Jones at that point.
QBs to play head-to-head. QBs play against defenses. Which team wins doesn't tell you anything about which QB is better. It tells you which team played better.
No. Let's say the teams play evenly until the last 2 minutes. One guy has a big turnover, the other makes the big throws that win.
Every article written would say so so out-dueled so and so. Has been that way forever.
RE: RE: RE: RE: 2022 Team Passing Offense, yards per game
1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
My "brain box" really thinks Daboll wants to win, and when looking at our lousy WRs, our poor pass protection of the IOL, Barkley, and our mobile QB, this is the best way to do it. Why would you throw it 35-40 times with our WRs on the receiving end, and limit Barkley's touches?
Can't your "brain box" understand that this may not be Jones specific, like your heavily biased opinion says, and may be a decision made by looking at the big picture?
The "poor pass protection" argument went out the window when the stsrs were posted showing DJ takes the longest to throw the ball of any QB in the NFL. You can't have shitty protection and take the longest to get the ball out.
Both of DJs TDs yesterday traveled a TOTAL of 4 yards (3 and 1)...the receivers ran a total of 62 yards on those TDs. So, 4 air yards, 62 YAC...but the receivers suck?
RE: RE: RE: RE: This Jalen Hurts vs Daniel Jones debate only happens on BBI
Jalen Hurts has become and objectively better passing QB than Daniel Jones and he will get a deal from Philly. He is far ahead of Jones in yds/game, Y/A, Y/C, TD%.
We get to play the games. Let's see how they do head to head. Hurts is objectably having the better year.
Conceded.
If Jones sweeps him, with the comparative rosters, I would give the edge to Jones at that point.
QBs to play head-to-head. QBs play against defenses. Which team wins doesn't tell you anything about which QB is better. It tells you which team played better.
No. Let's say the teams play evenly until the last 2 minutes. One guy has a big turnover, the other makes the big throws that win.
Every article written would say so so out-dueled so and so. Has been that way forever.
You understand there is a reason why articles written to entertain would say one "out duelled" the other when in fact the game was not decided by only the QBs, right?
If you want to argue that QBs win and lose games, and give Jones credit for winning games this year, then he has to take the blame for the team's record the last three years also. You can't say all wins are Jones' and all losses are because the rest of the team sucks.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: 2022 Team Passing Offense, yards per game
1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
My "brain box" really thinks Daboll wants to win, and when looking at our lousy WRs, our poor pass protection of the IOL, Barkley, and our mobile QB, this is the best way to do it. Why would you throw it 35-40 times with our WRs on the receiving end, and limit Barkley's touches?
Can't your "brain box" understand that this may not be Jones specific, like your heavily biased opinion says, and may be a decision made by looking at the big picture?
The "poor pass protection" argument went out the window when the stsrs were posted showing DJ takes the longest to throw the ball of any QB in the NFL. You can't have shitty protection and take the longest to get the ball out.
Both of DJs TDs yesterday traveled a TOTAL of 4 yards (3 and 1)...the receivers ran a total of 62 yards on those TDs. So, 4 air yards, 62 YAC...but the receivers suck?
Seriously, do you even watch the games or just look at the box score?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: 2022 Team Passing Offense, yards per game
1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
My "brain box" really thinks Daboll wants to win, and when looking at our lousy WRs, our poor pass protection of the IOL, Barkley, and our mobile QB, this is the best way to do it. Why would you throw it 35-40 times with our WRs on the receiving end, and limit Barkley's touches?
Can't your "brain box" understand that this may not be Jones specific, like your heavily biased opinion says, and may be a decision made by looking at the big picture?
The "poor pass protection" argument went out the window when the stsrs were posted showing DJ takes the longest to throw the ball of any QB in the NFL. You can't have shitty protection and take the longest to get the ball out.
Both of DJs TDs yesterday traveled a TOTAL of 4 yards (3 and 1)...the receivers ran a total of 62 yards on those TDs. So, 4 air yards, 62 YAC...but the receivers suck?
Seriously, do you even watch the games or just look at the box score?
Watched every second. I know...stats aren't important. Much better to trust feelings, emotions, and your gut...right?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: 2022 Team Passing Offense, yards per game
The "poor pass protection" argument went out the window when the stsrs were posted showing DJ takes the longest to throw the ball of any QB in the NFL. You can't have shitty protection and take the longest to get the ball out.
oh really? Pure 100% bullshit. You do know that QBs may have to extend plays due to the fact WRs cant get open so they either roll out or buy more time which will extend their time to throw.
You're narrative is old and stale with very little context. Try better.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: 2022 Team Passing Offense, yards per game
1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
My "brain box" really thinks Daboll wants to win, and when looking at our lousy WRs, our poor pass protection of the IOL, Barkley, and our mobile QB, this is the best way to do it. Why would you throw it 35-40 times with our WRs on the receiving end, and limit Barkley's touches?
Can't your "brain box" understand that this may not be Jones specific, like your heavily biased opinion says, and may be a decision made by looking at the big picture?
The "poor pass protection" argument went out the window when the stsrs were posted showing DJ takes the longest to throw the ball of any QB in the NFL. You can't have shitty protection and take the longest to get the ball out.
Both of DJs TDs yesterday traveled a TOTAL of 4 yards (3 and 1)...the receivers ran a total of 62 yards on those TDs. So, 4 air yards, 62 YAC...but the receivers suck?
Seriously, do you even watch the games or just look at the box score?
Watched every second. I know...stats aren't important. Much better to trust feelings, emotions, and your gut...right?
Sigh, I can't believe I'm going to answer this:
The first TD pass was a goal to go situation, where the TE ran it about 3 yards into the endzone. What is wrong with that?
The 2nd TD pass, to Slayton, was what some on BBI are calling Jones best play of the season. He avoided the rush and threw to Slayton fading away from the defenders. Yes Slayton did a good job, but also Jones did too. I find it weird you pick this play to use to criticize Jones.
On the "time to throw" crap stat, if you notice all the QB's with the longest times to throw are mobile/running QB's. The reason is that they are buying time, not that their OL is neessarily great. I think Fields was near the top too. In Jones case the Giants are using a lot of rollout pockets to buy Jones time. Of course when you are rolling him out a lot he will use more time to throw, he has to by design.
You are using stats you don't understand to support points that you push forward your personal agenda.
Frankly I'm not sold on Jones. This is not the offense I'd like to have, and if its all that Jones can do then we should move on. A lot of likely cheaper options can do the same if this is indeed all he can do. However I don't think any of us know that yet, and I get tired of all the "QB whisperers" here who believe they know for a fact what the answer is. I'll leave it up Daboll/Kafka, not you.
Lamar, Herbert, Tannehill, and Carr have/use more time to throw. Jones is tied with Mahomes at 2.5 seconds. In other words there are a lot of reasons why that stat sucks and doesn't tell you much unless you know how each team operates.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: This Jalen Hurts vs Daniel Jones debate only happens on BBI
Jalen Hurts has become and objectively better passing QB than Daniel Jones and he will get a deal from Philly. He is far ahead of Jones in yds/game, Y/A, Y/C, TD%.
We get to play the games. Let's see how they do head to head. Hurts is objectably having the better year.
Conceded.
If Jones sweeps him, with the comparative rosters, I would give the edge to Jones at that point.
QBs to play head-to-head. QBs play against defenses. Which team wins doesn't tell you anything about which QB is better. It tells you which team played better.
No. Let's say the teams play evenly until the last 2 minutes. One guy has a big turnover, the other makes the big throws that win.
Every article written would say so so out-dueled so and so. Has been that way forever.
You understand there is a reason why articles written to entertain would say one "out duelled" the other when in fact the game was not decided by only the QBs, right?
If you want to argue that QBs win and lose games, and give Jones credit for winning games this year, then he has to take the blame for the team's record the last three years also. You can't say all wins are Jones' and all losses are because the rest of the team sucks.
I did. Go back and look. He gets blame for the losses, he did and those criticisms stand. He is a young guy and can IMPROVE though? He got better with better coaching. Simple. If he goes back to that I will citicize.
1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
My "brain box" really thinks Daboll wants to win, and when looking at our lousy WRs, our poor pass protection of the IOL, Barkley, and our mobile QB, this is the best way to do it. Why would you throw it 35-40 times with our WRs on the receiving end, and limit Barkley's touches?
Can't your "brain box" understand that this may not be Jones specific, like your heavily biased opinion says, and may be a decision made by looking at the big picture?
The "poor pass protection" argument went out the window when the stsrs were posted showing DJ takes the longest to throw the ball of any QB in the NFL. You can't have shitty protection and take the longest to get the ball out.
Both of DJs TDs yesterday traveled a TOTAL of 4 yards (3 and 1)...the receivers ran a total of 62 yards on those TDs. So, 4 air yards, 62 YAC...but the receivers suck?
Seriously, do you even watch the games or just look at the box score?
Watched every second. I know...stats aren't important. Much better to trust feelings, emotions, and your gut...right?
Sigh, I can't believe I'm going to answer this:
The first TD pass was a goal to go situation, where the TE ran it about 3 yards into the endzone. What is wrong with that?
The 2nd TD pass, to Slayton, was what some on BBI are calling Jones best play of the season. He avoided the rush and threw to Slayton fading away from the defenders. Yes Slayton did a good job, but also Jones did too. I find it weird you pick this play to use to criticize Jones.
On the "time to throw" crap stat, if you notice all the QB's with the longest times to throw are mobile/running QB's. The reason is that they are buying time, not that their OL is neessarily great. I think Fields was near the top too. In Jones case the Giants are using a lot of rollout pockets to buy Jones time. Of course when you are rolling him out a lot he will use more time to throw, he has to by design.
You are using stats you don't understand to support points that you push forward your personal agenda.
Frankly I'm not sold on Jones. This is not the offense I'd like to have, and if its all that Jones can do then we should move on. A lot of likely cheaper options can do the same if this is indeed all he can do. However I don't think any of us know that yet, and I get tired of all the "QB whisperers" here who believe they know for a fact what the answer is. I'll leave it up Daboll/Kafka, not you.
You're acting like DJ moves around in the pocket like Rodgers or Mahomes...he doesn't. The rollouts were part of the gameplan for 2-3 weeks.
Stats I don't understand? WTF? DJ throws a 1 yard pass, the TE runs 8 yards for a TD, and the fanboys want to act like Jones is Mahomes. He backpedals (stuff every NFL QB does), throws a 3 yard pass, and ends up with a 54 yard TD pass in the box score. Then, the fanboys want to talk about how great DJ is because he has no WRs. He threw the ball 4 total yards for 2 TDs...give him $30 million!
Of course the fanboys are calling the Slayton TD Jones' best play...he throws so few TDs, there's not much to trump it. Every TD DJ throws (all 8 in 9 games) are just impossible plays that very few could complete, right? Go with your gut!
be fanboys of Jones? That means we are rooting for him to do well. I guess I am a fanboy of Love, Lwrence, Thibs, Bellinger, Glowinski, Thomas, Slayton, Gollladay since I root for them to do well.
Are you saying you want Jones to fail and not root for him? Seems like a very odd thing to say as a Giants fan.
That is 100% false. Protecting their make shift receiving core? Yup. Their patch work OL? Yup. But not DJ has never has had a good group of either one. Be careful what you wish for cause I’ll say it again a maroon and gold team has already been sniffing around.
Are you one of those guys who think Joe Namath was a better QB than Dan Marino because one of them won a superbowl and the other didn't?
Marino is the best pure passer I ever saw. He is very far down on my list of great QBs. Still great, still a Hall of famer. I do like the ones that won when it mattered most more.
Public Service Announcement. When you click on "reply", you don't have to include the entire message of that poster. You can actually delete as much of the content as you want. This would help to make it much easier for everyone to read threads, especially those with a lot of posts to sift through.
be fanboys of Jones? That means we are rooting for him to do well. I guess I am a fanboy of Love, Lwrence, Thibs, Bellinger, Glowinski, Thomas, Slayton, Gollladay since I root for them to do well.
Are you saying you want Jones to fail and not root for him? Seems like a very odd thing to say as a Giants fan.
Definitely odd. Check out the game thread. there's an 45 minute long argument about whether the first pass to Golladay was a "drop" or not.
be fanboys of Jones? That means we are rooting for him to do well. I guess I am a fanboy of Love, Lwrence, Thibs, Bellinger, Glowinski, Thomas, Slayton, Gollladay since I root for them to do well.
Are you saying you want Jones to fail and not root for him? Seems like a very odd thing to say as a Giants fan.
I'm on record...I hope the Giants move on from Jones this offseason. However, I'm rooting for the guy (and team) every week and have for 40ish years.
The "fanboys" are the fans that need DJ to be good, so they'll look past stats and make points based on silliness. They want to act like DJ isn't a dink and dunk game manager...except that DJ is 40th this year in air yards per attempt. They want to give DJ credit for all the wins...the Giants are 29th in passing offense and DJ has 8 passing TDs in 9 games. He throws a 3 yard pass and Slayton runs 51 yards for a TD...and it's a great play by Jones because he backpedaled? Stop! Just stop!
I like DJ..but he's not a franchise QB and he's definitely not worth $30+ million per year. He's tough, he's likeable...but he's a game manager.
That people think the coaches, GM and players care more about advanced passing stats than wins. It is really a foolish take and the motivation for it considering the context of the last few years of posting from certain members, it is obvious why.
I find it hysterical that fans think coaches and GMs simplify their QB evaluation to the point where team wins are even remotely close to the most important factor for any individual player.
It's fine if fans want to take such a simplistic approach to say that they don't want to fix what appears to be unbroken, but the coaches and front office executives are privy to what factors they're handcuffing themselves with in order to keep that scenario unbroken in the first place.
The short version is that I feel very confident in saying that the team's W/L record may help DJ's cause in his contract negotiations but will be far from the top factor the team considers when they are faced with a long view of their future at the QB position, especially when they are winning in a way that asks relatively little of the QB, compared to the offensive schemes with which our offensive coaches share their pedigree (Buffalo and Kansas City, most notably).
I feel confident that by far, the most meaningful stat to all of ownership, management and players is wins. So we disagree on a profound level on this topic. Not a lot reason for us to unpack it.
Fair enough. Let me know how you think they should valuate DJ for his next contract with the approach you have in mind.
He already beat Rodgers H2H, so if the Giants also finish the season with more wins than Green Bay, is it safe to say you'd endorse $50M+ AAV for DJ since he'd have better numbers in your only valuable metric?
Strawman brother. I would use everything in my arsenal as a GM to keep that next contract closer to 30-35m per.
IF...
IF, he doesn't get injured and finishes the year strong. The rest of the games matter too. I want the entire body of work in 2022 to make a decision. It is looking good so far though.
I would site past poor play and injuries to get a better deal. Negotiating NFL contracts is big boy business.
WRs - well below average
Rushing (RBs/QB) - way above average
OL - MUCH, MUCH better at run blocking than pass blocking
And they play/will play in cold weather
Why is it so hard to understand that the game plan should revolve around running the ball? I don’t understand why people can’t comprehend that. Stop comparing this team to other NFL teams and using the words “not sustainable.” They are 7-2. Obviously it is.
Jones will never throw for 300+ yards and 3 TDs when he has 20 passing attempts per game. It’s just not going to happen. No QB would. Brady, who leads the league, has almost double the attempts that Jones has.
Meanwhile, he is doing everything necessary to win games for the giants.
I’ll never understand the people on here.
The same fucking experts here that nitpicked and booed Phil Simms....yea THAT QB. That same QB who now doesn't have to buy a drink in this town because he's so beloved. HE wasn't always beloved. But many fans are dumb.
WRs - well below average
Rushing (RBs/QB) - way above average
OL - MUCH, MUCH better at run blocking than pass blocking
And they play/will play in cold weather
Why is it so hard to understand that the game plan should revolve around running the ball? I don’t understand why people can’t comprehend that. Stop comparing this team to other NFL teams and using the words “not sustainable.” They are 7-2. Obviously it is.
Jones will never throw for 300+ yards and 3 TDs when he has 20 passing attempts per game. It’s just not going to happen. No QB would. Brady, who leads the league, has almost double the attempts that Jones has.
Meanwhile, he is doing everything necessary to win games for the giants.
I’ll never understand the people on here.
The same fucking experts here that nitpicked and booed Phil Simms....yea THAT QB. That same QB who now doesn't have to buy a drink in this town because he's so beloved. HE wasn't always beloved. But many fans are dumb.
Exhausting.
Daniel Jones is playing well. Get that? Thanks.
Solid
RE: The Giants aren’t going to shell out a multi year deal
On the idea he might be better than Cousins with better receivers. That’s the point being made by many.
Do you truly and honestly think the GIants are a better team right now if Cousins is here instead of Daniel Jones?
Really think that one through. Take your time. Envision Cousins here throwing to Crosby, Stills and Nash and it's 3rd and 8--4th quarter, and the pocket collapses while those WRs aren't getting open...what does Cousins do that DJ hasn't been able to do?
We aren't better with Cousins. I'd bet my life on it and I have always defended Cousins this year and the last 4-5 years. HE's a solid to very solid QB. Maybe even better than that. He's in the same system now and has an insanely good arsenal of talent. Gee, you think Cousins wouldn't be the same player here that he is in Minny right now? Cmon already.
don't make me conjure up the multitude of Cousins is overrated posts over the last 3-4 years with me all over those threads saying the Skins would regret losing him and he's better than people want to admit. HE's a 4th round pick who made good. HE's earned every bit of accolades this year and if any QB / team was to win the super bowl this year that isn't NYG, I hope it's Minny. But he's not elevating this offense more than DJ is this season. No fucking way in hell.
how many TDs and yards should a good to very good QB have if he has very very bad WRs and TEs? OK he's got the running game, not to be understated, that's why it's fair to judge him on wins and losses (HELLO 7-2!!) but if the WRs/TEs are below average, what's the line of demarcation? 24 total TDs? 30? How many total yards and are we allowed to adjust for context like we did in the 80s with MR Simms?
Tell me, what's the # that gives you all the warm and fuzzies, even if it's a BS number that doesn't mean fuck all. And i'd love to know why you'd dump the guy over 1-2 statistical "failures"--it better be worth it. If you NEED 28 total tds and Jones only comes up with 25--um, you're really going to bitch and moan every day when he's signed and "overpaid" here? BEcause of a few TD passes that never happened?
Every metric says he's playing well. Even his FF stats are above average. But he's not doing enough I guess....because you can't win in this league without an insanely good passing game. Maybe we need WRs. And maybe we are winning anyway.
RE: RE: The Giants aren’t going to shell out a multi year deal
On the idea he might be better than Cousins with better receivers. That’s the point being made by many.
Do you truly and honestly think the GIants are a better team right now if Cousins is here instead of Daniel Jones?
Really think that one through. Take your time. Envision Cousins here throwing to Crosby, Stills and Nash and it's 3rd and 8--4th quarter, and the pocket collapses while those WRs aren't getting open...what does Cousins do that DJ hasn't been able to do?
We aren't better with Cousins. I'd bet my life on it and I have always defended Cousins this year and the last 4-5 years. HE's a solid to very solid QB. Maybe even better than that. He's in the same system now and has an insanely good arsenal of talent. Gee, you think Cousins wouldn't be the same player here that he is in Minny right now? Cmon already.
I’d like you to point out where in that statement it says the Giants would be better off with Kirk Cousins.
the most important trait Jones needs to display the rest of the season is can he keep up this running and scrambling game of his and stay on the field. This is by FAR the most understated aspect of DJ's game the rest of the way. Terps said it, every now n then he is 100% on the mark and he is when he said DJ's best trait is his running ability. Not a knock, more a virtue, the guy is a game breaking runner. Can he do this week in week out ? Can he do it all season? He's on his way.
We KNOW he's accurate. We KNOW he can throw TDs. We KNOW he can run. Can he keep running ala Lamar Jackson (poor man version) and stay on the field?
PS We also KNOW the WR are well below avg. Slayton is a nice comeback story. He's upgradeable. Robinson nice looking rookie. The rest are replacement level. That means the position is in dire need of upgrades at 2-3 spots. Do you think DJ's numbers might look better with someone like Amari Coooper (prime) as his #1? Cmon.
Can he keep running and stay healthy and will he play well in December. That's what we're looking for and i'd bet thats what Schoen and Daboll are looking for.
the coaching staff doesn't trust Jones. They never go for it at the end of the half and they run an extremely conservative offense. Now part of that is definitely the WR's and OL, but part of it is also because they don't trust Jones.
Basically, the Giants are using him like the Titans have used Tannehill. Protect the ball, be efficient, hand off to a great RB.
At this point, I trust the guys running this team to decide if he's got another level they can get to with better players around him. If they bring him back, it's because they believe in them and who would I be to argue?
I wouldn't be afraid to move on from him either. You don't want your team's ceiling to be held back by the QB and if they decide he would be doing that, it's best to move on.
Either way, I'm enjoying how he's playing this year. He's been smart, tough and dependable and is one reason this team is winning games.
I think this is a great post, and I agree with putting faith in whichever way JS & BD decide to go at QB.
As do I. I think DJ has more skills than Tannehill but the point is fair.
What I can't accept is people saying the Giants are dumbing down the O because of Jones or Jones can't look off WRs or read a defense. Not sure where that take came from, oh wait, it came from here. Made up, but echo chamber does its thing.
Watch the games and rewind plays again and tell me DJ doesn't pass to the 2nd or 3rd read at times. Please do this.
he;'s playing well. HE's doing more with this offense than other QBs would do here. Not al of them, sure there are some that are better but Jones is a weapon that helps this offense. He's the 3rd best player on offense behind Barkley and Thomas. Give him a #1 WR and his numbers and points go up. And he's shown that he can win 4th quarters which is really the end all be all.
The Giants will do what's best for the team. Don't be shocked if DJ is under center this time next year.
until he's doing historical shit in January. Kind of fair, I mean ELi went through it here. So did Simms. I just hate the easy takes that aren't really true or maybe were true 2 years ago.
This isn't 2020 anymore.
RE: RE: RE: NYG are and should be actively scouting college QBs
Those who think otherwise don't know what they're watching.
They are scouting everyone. That’s their effing job. And they could realistically lose Jones now even if they want him back-so they damn well better. You’re saying the sky is blue. Congrats.
I'm saying believing Jones is the QB to lead NYG to SB wins will be proven off-target. I'm not remotely afraid to lose or replace Jones.
Jones has layed well in several of the wins and yet some here are going to spend the majority of the week posting about inane Jones shit.
I really wish some of you can see how useless it is. It isn't "discussing football" as one of that group likes to brag about - it is just rehashing the same old shit for n end goal at all.
We'll hopefully be 8-2 and some of you schmucks will rinse and repeat and create several hundred posts a week about Jones again.
What a time suck that must be. But keep telling yourselves that you are "discussing football".
What a time suck that must be. But keep telling yourselves that you are "discussing football".
Sorry we upset you by discussing the potential contract of a player that plays for the Giants. Next time we’ll choose a topic that is acceptable to our overlord.
If we make a playoff game, the coaches should all be deemed coaches of the year, the ownership should be applauded for staying the fuck out of their business, every starter should be welcomed back or given a bonus, and 1/2 of BBI needs to enjoy it and shut the …. Up. It’s been awhile.
Jones has layed well in several of the wins and yet some here are going to spend the majority of the week posting about inane Jones shit.
I really wish some of you can see how useless it is. It isn't "discussing football" as one of that group likes to brag about - it is just rehashing the same old shit for n end goal at all.
We'll hopefully be 8-2 and some of you schmucks will rinse and repeat and create several hundred posts a week about Jones again.
What a time suck that must be. But keep telling yourselves that you are "discussing football".
They’ve dug a hole so big - they’ll never get out of it - so they keep repeating the same thing over and over and over again.
Jones has layed well in several of the wins and yet some here are going to spend the majority of the week posting about inane Jones shit.
I really wish some of you can see how useless it is. It isn't "discussing football" as one of that group likes to brag about - it is just rehashing the same old shit for n end goal at all.
We'll hopefully be 8-2 and some of you schmucks will rinse and repeat and create several hundred posts a week about Jones again.
What a time suck that must be. But keep telling yourselves that you are "discussing football".
I really think that happens. I feel Dallas is going to implode. We are built for winter. Look at our remaining schedule, 14-3 or 13-4 is VERY possible. Destiny awaits.
This season has been unexpected and magnificent. I have not wasted a single moment worrying that if Jones plays well and the team wins many games, he gets another contract.
That Kirk Cousins contract isn't looking so bad for the Vikings today...
It is just a terrible take on the season, I feel bad for people.
I remember the days when the Giants needed to lose so that they could draft Chase Young. That turned out pretty shitty for all those posters who were legitimately angry when we beat Miami and Washington two out of the last three weeks of the season. Turns out we ended up with one of the best left tackles, possibly the best left tackle right now in the NFL.
I remember when we needed to lose this year because it was clear that Tyrod was signed to be the "bridge" before we get "our QB" that Daboll and Schoen really love. When that didn't happen, the talk all year continued about scouting QBs because "we don't really know what Daboll and Schoen want, and they likely don't want Jones based on what they've shown us so far."
Then Schoen had like 4 interviews with various media outlets and talked positively about Jones being a core player. Funny how nobody mentioned that on this message board. Sort of slipped through the cracks I guess.
The Giants are winning. That’s a fantasy in your guys heads.
Nope, wrong again. Plenty are. There are posters here who have said repeatedly that as long as Jones is the quarterback the Giants are stuck in neutral. Those posters have said repeatedly that they want another option, but the problem is that the Giants keep winning with Jones as the QB, so it makes them look like complete idiots and the goalposts continue to change week after week.
i respect the hell out of Jon but he was banging the table for losses in 2019 in order to get Young and he's essentially saying that he doesn't think Jones is good without actually saying that. And he thinks the coaches aren't high on him. I guess we'll see if he ends up being correct about that one.
The Giants are winning. That’s a fantasy in your guys heads.
Nope, wrong again. Plenty are. There are posters here who have said repeatedly that as long as Jones is the quarterback the Giants are stuck in neutral. Those posters have said repeatedly that they want another option, but the problem is that the Giants keep winning with Jones as the QB, so it makes them look like complete idiots and the goalposts continue to change week after week.
This doesn’t mean that they are mad the Giants are winning, multiple things are allowed to be true at the same time. You’re so entrenched in some revenge tour for all the times you were wrong you get riled up about fantasies you’ve created. It’s weird.
1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
This is a chest pounding I told you so thread. Polluting it with facts and reality that refute the hyperbole will likely not go over well...
shit about passing yards? The football IQ on this site is at an all time low.
The winning percentage over the last decade when passing for under 200 yards is 46%. It actually does matter. Right now the Giants are defying the norm.
Jones has layed well in several of the wins and yet some here are going to spend the majority of the week posting about inane Jones shit.
I really wish some of you can see how useless it is. It isn't "discussing football" as one of that group likes to brag about - it is just rehashing the same old shit for n end goal at all.
We'll hopefully be 8-2 and some of you schmucks will rinse and repeat and create several hundred posts a week about Jones again.
What a time suck that must be. But keep telling yourselves that you are "discussing football".
Is it irrelevant to discuss the potential contract value of an impending free agent?
I seem to remember you participating in quite a few of those conversations when it was Leonard Williams - why is it different to discuss the exact same topic when it's regarding Daniel Jones?
A simpleton might assume that it's because the current NFL QB market doesn't leave a lot of room to make a favorable case for DJ without also endorsing a very expensive contract.
And just a smidge beyond that simpleton's assumption, one might naively assume that the nuance of whether to use the franchise tag on Barkley and how it impacts DJ's contract negotiations (or vice versa) would require discussing how to keep both and at what contract value one of those two will get full price market rates and for how long.
Leave those hypothetical dummies out of the discussion. I think you just don't want to put your name on a number because barking down the entire discussion itself is an easier way to avoid being wrong.
8th in QBR
Last in the league in INT’s thrown (amazing stat)
22nd in yards
24th in passing TD’s
I’d love to get those last 2 stats into the 11-15 ranked range.
Right now he’s on track for 3000 yards passing and 13 TD passes.
This is strictly my opinion, but I think that Daboll/Kafka's approach suggests that they're at least somewhat concerned that if they try to press on the accelerator for those second two stats too aggressively, they'd end up applying a more significantly negative impact to the first two stats.
Not necessarily a reflection on DJ when I say that, either. Simply an observation of the offense at large.
1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
This is a chest pounding I told you so thread. Polluting it with facts and reality that refute the hyperbole will likely not go over well...
No it’s just a poster reminding everyone that he think Jones is terrible and will come up with any way to do so.
It’s a shame we have posters that need to remind everyone of their narrative after every win.
I think DJ has had a good season. But then I look @ the contract #s people claim he might fetch & I go...'Eh. I don't know about that.'
Agreed, he’s had a solid season but also not the type of season you pony up $30 million for. I’m not sure why it’s so offensive to have that opinion on this board.
The only chance he’s back is it’s a Winston type deal of 1 year $15 million, which I don’t think the Jones camp takes. There’s still too much unknown to commit multiple years to.
Jones has layed well in several of the wins and yet some here are going to spend the majority of the week posting about inane Jones shit.
I really wish some of you can see how useless it is. It isn't "discussing football" as one of that group likes to brag about - it is just rehashing the same old shit for n end goal at all.
We'll hopefully be 8-2 and some of you schmucks will rinse and repeat and create several hundred posts a week about Jones again.
What a time suck that must be. But keep telling yourselves that you are "discussing football".
Just a reminder. Jones plays QB, not safety, linebacker, or full back. And he's played the position quite poorly for most of his four years. So, in this crucial fourth year where Jones is playing for his football career, it seems absolutely essential to talk about Jones's weekly performance, and if he's going to be the solution going forward.
Reminder: if you don't like what is being discussed you are under no obligation to read it or respond to it.
... made up their mind sometime ago regarding Jones.
Most of them are having a hard time with him playing well. To be sure they're still rooting for the team and even for Jones, but they're not terribly thrilled that the team is doing well with Jones.
I don't believe that the coaching staff has made up their mind.
I do believe that they are in a better position from a skill standpoint to nknowmore than those posting here... Some of you may disagree.
I have no idea how much money should be spent on a quarterback that an NFL coaching staff believes is the future...
That is 100% false. Protecting their make shift receiving core? Yup. Their patch work OL? Yup. But not DJ has never has had a good group of either one. Be careful what you wish for cause I’ll say it again a maroon and gold team has already been sniffing around.
Sometimes your posts get tangled up in logical problems - this one is an example of that, IMO.
Your argument on what part of the offense is being schemed around is simply a matter of perception. The tactics that a HC/OC might employ to safeguard against mediocre receivers or a makeshift OL can often look exactly the same as the tactics that a HC/OC might employ to implement guardrails on a QB to limit exposure to mistakes. That's what makes it just as difficult to make the claim that it's absolutely about DJ as it is to make the claim that it's absolutely NOT about DJ. You don't know that BD/MK aren't putting guardrails on the offense because of DJ, and no one else should claim in absolute fashion that they are.
The only thing we can observe with certainty is that there are obvious limiters being applied to the passing game - that's the what/where/how/when of it all, and those questions are answered objectively. Why is the subjective question that we lack the facts to answer with certainty. And because of that, we also can't objectively answer the "who" portion of the question in general.
As for the last part of your post, it's just logically irrelevant. Just generally speaking, if someone thinks that DJ is an essential asset, they're already in favor of keeping him (thus, they wouldn't be wishing for him to sign elsewhere in the first place); if someone thinks that DJ is a liability, they're not going to be scared of him ending up with a division rival.
More specifically though, is there anyone who you realistically think is on the fence about DJ, could kind of be fine with him signing elsewhere but then all of a sudden your little nugget about Washington potentially being where he ends up somehow convinces them to change their sentiment on DJ entirely? Or did you just want to drop a little asshat seed to pat yourself on the back with in case DJ ends up signing with the Commanders?
Jones has layed well in several of the wins and yet some here are going to spend the majority of the week posting about inane Jones shit.
I really wish some of you can see how useless it is. It isn't "discussing football" as one of that group likes to brag about - it is just rehashing the same old shit for n end goal at all.
We'll hopefully be 8-2 and some of you schmucks will rinse and repeat and create several hundred posts a week about Jones again.
What a time suck that must be. But keep telling yourselves that you are "discussing football".
They’ve dug a hole so big - they’ll never get out of it - so they keep repeating the same thing over and over and over again.
You may want to throw a rope ladder to FMIC to help him get out of the deep hole he dug supporting Gettleman day after day, week after week, month after month for four years.
Most of them are having a hard time with him playing well. To be sure they're still rooting for the team and even for Jones, but they're not terribly thrilled that the team is doing well with Jones.
I don't believe that. I think many of us are curious how this offense is actually working and Jones's role in that.
the coaching staff doesn't trust Jones. They never go for it at the end of the half and they run an extremely conservative offense. Now part of that is definitely the WR's and OL, but part of it is also because they don't trust Jones.
You're pulling shit out of your ass dude.
That was uncalled for on my part. I didn’t need to bring your ass or anyone else’s ass into this.
8th in QBR
Last in the league in INT’s thrown (amazing stat)
22nd in yards
24th in passing TD’s
I’d love to get those last 2 stats into the 11-15 ranked range.
Right now he’s on track for 3000 yards passing and 13 TD passes.
This is strictly my opinion, but I think that Daboll/Kafka's approach suggests that they're at least somewhat concerned that if they try to press on the accelerator for those second two stats too aggressively, they'd end up applying a more significantly negative impact to the first two stats.
Not necessarily a reflection on DJ when I say that, either. Simply an observation of the offense at large.
Not sure what you are saying here, and I normally agree with everything you post. It is a reflection on Jones. That's the whole game. Jones cut turnovers by scaling down and playing conservatively. He has never scaled back up. Daboll is using the scaled down Jones to max effect. If Jones can scale up tomorrow and be a 4500 yard 35TD 8INT guy, let's do it. If he demonstrates he is capable of that level of performance I'll become a big advocate. But he hasn't, because he can't.
1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
This is a chest pounding I told you so thread. Polluting it with facts and reality that refute the hyperbole will likely not go over well...
Ok fine.
Do some here actually believe that Jones and the passing game isn’t capable of more yardage? You’re telling me not only is jones a finished product in this offense, stay with me, but this offense is a finished product? The passing game can’t improve ? Yes it’s kind of not sustainable although one could argue if the running game keeps this up it is, but ok fine it isn’t. That doesn’t mean things can’t improve if and when the wrs and oline improve, and the former likely improves dramatically by next season.
I give up. We argue like fucking morons dealing in absolutes with little to no nuance.
Most of them are having a hard time with him playing well. To be sure they're still rooting for the team and even for Jones, but they're not terribly thrilled that the team is doing well with Jones.
I don't believe that. I think many of us are curious how this offense is actually working and Jones's role in that.
I believe that you are indeed curious. But than, you are not posting like those that have simply moved on from DJ.
But I find most telling is those that are suggesting that the playbook has been dumbed down for the QB.
In my experience if that was the case there would be more deep routes, not fewer.
More flood concepts slide protections and rollouts.
Clearly the coach is playing to the strengths of the team... In my experience, that's how good coaching works.
Are way overblown and way too involved in any player evaluations around here. People literally think we’re better off sucking next year with a rookie than winning with an “overpaid” Daniel jones. Tell me I’m wrong.
In a perfect world we do win with a cost controlled cheap awesome QB. I’ll tell you what doesn’t suck— winning with an expensive qb.
Many here simply cannot be objective when players get paid. Most contracts aren’t as dire or deadly as this place insists. It’s important to be fiscally smart, that doesn’t mean you go full retard and let the qb walk. The skins let cousins walk and I still here fans of that team say it was the right move. Sure it was.
Are way overblown and way too involved in any player evaluations around here. People literally think we’re better off sucking next year with a rookie than winning with an “overpaid” Daniel jones. Tell me I’m wrong.
In a perfect world we do win with a cost controlled cheap awesome QB. I’ll tell you what doesn’t suck— winning with an expensive qb.
Many here simply cannot be objective when players get paid. Most contracts aren’t as dire or deadly as this place insists. It’s important to be fiscally smart, that doesn’t mean you go full retard and let the qb walk. The skins let cousins walk and I still here fans of that team say it was the right move. Sure it was.
You're wrong.
People think it will be harder to win if DJ is overpaid because there's a salary cap in the NFL.
The one with a bottle of Heineken starting at qb and let’s add in 2 decent or solid highly paid vets, or the team with cousins at qb and remove those two vets. And even that could be an unfair leap as teams find ways to keep their stars by moving money around.
If jones is the best qb for the giants going forward he needs to be re-signed. You damn right you fucking pay the guy. You make the best educated decision based on every shred of data and evidence, anecdotal or empirical. We don’t know everything Daboll and Schoen know so I’m fine with trusting them. But my eyes tell me he’s a solid qb with upside and good intangibles.
Are way overblown and way too involved in any player evaluations around here. People literally think we’re better off sucking next year with a rookie than winning with an “overpaid” Daniel jones. Tell me I’m wrong.
In a perfect world we do win with a cost controlled cheap awesome QB. I’ll tell you what doesn’t suck— winning with an expensive qb.
Many here simply cannot be objective when players get paid. Most contracts aren’t as dire or deadly as this place insists. It’s important to be fiscally smart, that doesn’t mean you go full retard and let the qb walk. The skins let cousins walk and I still here fans of that team say it was the right move. Sure it was.
You're wrong.
People think it will be harder to win if DJ is overpaid because there's a salary cap in the NFL.
I already know that. You and many others would have nothing to talk about if not for the big bad cap. Broken record I say the same shit. You’re better off paying the good player than not. Theres always risk. Risk in doing and risk in not doing. You’re wrong.
And he gets hurt or regresses under Daboll I’m wrong. if they let him walk and he shines elsewhere and we draft the next loser qb that looks like tarzan you’re wrong. Every move is risky. Not paying a qb you know is good because of money is fucking stupid and negligent. If they don’t pay him they better be sure he’s no good and they can find someone better.
The giants aren’t letting jones go because of the god damned cap. They might let him go because they don’t love him. Two different things.
Look I get the appeal of going with a young cost control quarterback. I also get the trepidation in going cash all in on Jones long-term or any quarterback for that matter. I get both sides truly I do. I just think some are way too enamored with the cheap young QB route as if less money is always better. It isn’t. Look at the jets. At some point fans became convinced that young drafted QBs are likely to shine. Likely just doesn’t seem the right word to me.
At some point fans became convinced that young drafted QBs are likely to shine. Likely just doesn’t seem the right word to me.
Isn’t that what’s happened here for the last 4 years? And here we are approaching the end of year 4, without a clear picture of what the young QB is and having to make a massive financial decision.
The Giants are winning. That’s a fantasy in your guys heads.
Nope, wrong again. Plenty are. There are posters here who have said repeatedly that as long as Jones is the quarterback the Giants are stuck in neutral. Those posters have said repeatedly that they want another option, but the problem is that the Giants keep winning with Jones as the QB, so it makes them look like complete idiots and the goalposts continue to change week after week.
That's the narrative you want to spin. Winning isn't the only measure of a QB, especially when we depend on Saquon and or defense way more than DJ.
Honest question...do you see this team competing for, or winning a SB with this offense? Do you think DJ can put up top 5 to 10 passing stats?
I don't...that's why I want to move on from Jones. Winning is great...but sneaking by below average teams with a 4th place schedule doesn't get us to the ultimate goal.
Are way overblown and way too involved in any player evaluations around here. People literally think we’re better off sucking next year with a rookie than winning with an “overpaid” Daniel jones. Tell me I’m wrong.
In a perfect world we do win with a cost controlled cheap awesome QB. I’ll tell you what doesn’t suck— winning with an expensive qb.
Many here simply cannot be objective when players get paid. Most contracts aren’t as dire or deadly as this place insists. It’s important to be fiscally smart, that doesn’t mean you go full retard and let the qb walk. The skins let cousins walk and I still here fans of that team say it was the right move. Sure it was.
You're wrong.
People think it will be harder to win if DJ is overpaid because there's a salary cap in the NFL.
We have so much dead weight on this roster, we already playing hamstrung. 17 million dollar dead weight, traded first round WR, still paying a ton of dead money that comes off the books next year. And we are gonna be a playoff team.
until he's doing historical shit in January. Kind of fair, I mean ELi went through it here. So did Simms. I just hate the easy takes that aren't really true or maybe were true 2 years ago.
This isn't 2020 anymore.
Funny how Jones fans love to quote his QBR, but want to ignore every other stat.
Want to get paid like a franchise QB...look and produce like a franchise QB. He's a game manager right now, nothing more.
RE: NYG are and should be actively scouting college QBs
And he gets hurt or regresses under Daboll I’m wrong. if they let him walk and he shines elsewhere and we draft the next loser qb that looks like tarzan you’re wrong. Every move is risky. Not paying a qb you know is good because of money is fucking stupid and negligent. If they don’t pay him they better be sure he’s no good and they can find someone better.
The giants aren’t letting jones go because of the god damned cap. They might let him go because they don’t love him. Two different things.
I don't think this is true. I think the cap and how the market value for a QB will impact the cap situation are extremely large factors in this decision. Schoen and Daboll may not want to or need to find a better QB. They may think they just need somebody as good for a lot less money. Doing that may be a crap shoot, but it's not that crazy to think it's possible.
I have a feeling this merry go round of logic will continue with Jones
If they re-sign him, there is a good chance Barkley is gone. If Barkley is gone, they have no true #1 RB and they lose their best offensive player and only real weapon right now. That puts more pressure on the need for a WR1 and to improve the OL. It opens the door for more excuses next year if anything goes south because the narrative can then be we have no running game.
I know the risks in re-signing a RB, especially one with injuries in his past. But, I think their best short to medium term option may be a creative way to keep both.
I will add, I love the 7-2 record and the guts and grit
Jones shows every week and the team shows. But, I have yet to see a QB who can elevate his team on his own. I hope to Hell we get to see that in the next few weeks. I'd be thrilled to have a REALLY compelling reason to re-sign him.
7-2 is great. But, I think if we are being honest, there are a ton of other factors contributing to that record. The coaching staff is #1, in my opinion. Barkley is #2. Jones is somewhere in the mix, but those are the most important.
Who wants to trade him?
Even you know that didn't happen. So why do you believe fans should not talk about it?
Which game was it that Barkley hurt his shoulder and was out for the game tying or winning drive? That was his best.
Baltimore?
If healthy he has fallen in that range his entire career, maybe 15-20, unlikley to break the top 10. The idea that we don't know what we have in DJ really did not make sense last year, and is silly this year. He is a mid-range NFL starter. Good enough to win, not good enough to be why you win. Good enough to keep if the contract is right, but the price of the contract is going up every week. 6 weeks ago I would have happily signed him to 3/$60 and thought he might take it. You would be lucky to get him at 3/$90 at this point.
Hope I am wrong and he is better than that, or that we can get him back cheaper, if we want him. But that is the lay of the land as I see it.
I agree. They should try to develop a QB for the backup role if they think of themselves as QB savvy coaches. They probably should have drafted one previously instead of signing Taylor.
If healthy he has fallen in that range his entire career, maybe 15-20, unlikley to break the top 10. The idea that we don't know what we have in DJ really did not make sense last year, and is silly this year. He is a mid-range NFL starter. Good enough to win, not good enough to be why you win. Good enough to keep if the contract is right, but the price of the contract is going up every week. 6 weeks ago I would have happily signed him to 3/$60 and thought he might take it. You would be lucky to get him at 3/$90 at this point.
Hope I am wrong and he is better than that, or that we can get him back cheaper, if we want him. But that is the lay of the land as I see it.
I agree with you though I think 3year $75-80mil with incentives on top gets it done and is fair to both sides. He's going to want more than 2years to sign anything but he hasn't proven enough to merit a BIG contract. Also don't think he'll have many suitors willing to pay more than that.
Rushing (RBs/QB) - way above average
OL - MUCH, MUCH better at run blocking than pass blocking
And they play/will play in cold weather
Why is it so hard to understand that the game plan should revolve around running the ball? I don’t understand why people can’t comprehend that. Stop comparing this team to other NFL teams and using the words “not sustainable.” They are 7-2. Obviously it is.
Jones will never throw for 300+ yards and 3 TDs when he has 20 passing attempts per game. It’s just not going to happen. No QB would. Brady, who leads the league, has almost double the attempts that Jones has.
Meanwhile, he is doing everything necessary to win games for the giants.
I’ll never understand the people on here.
If healthy he has fallen in that range his entire career, maybe 15-20, unlikley to break the top 10. The idea that we don't know what we have in DJ really did not make sense last year, and is silly this year. He is a mid-range NFL starter. Good enough to win, not good enough to be why you win. Good enough to keep if the contract is right, but the price of the contract is going up every week. 6 weeks ago I would have happily signed him to 3/$60 and thought he might take it. You would be lucky to get him at 3/$90 at this point.
Hope I am wrong and he is better than that, or that we can get him back cheaper, if we want him. But that is the lay of the land as I see it.
'Been thinking about this for a few weeks now. I would go with a two year deal starting at $30MM the first year, then $35MM the second year. I'd have a team option at $40MM for year three. If he can get something better than that, then bless his heart and more power to him. But I don't think he'll get something significantly better than that. I think Shoen will start his negotiations below those figures obviously, but those would be my red lines.
If Jones is not resigned or tagged, some team will sign him for a much better deal than that.
The Giants need to upgrade the QB if they want to take the next step from playoff team to true contender.
Rushing (RBs/QB) - way above average
OL - MUCH, MUCH better at run blocking than pass blocking
And they play/will play in cold weather
Why is it so hard to understand that the game plan should revolve around running the ball? I don’t understand why people can’t comprehend that. Stop comparing this team to other NFL teams and using the words “not sustainable.” They are 7-2. Obviously it is.
Jones will never throw for 300+ yards and 3 TDs when he has 20 passing attempts per game. It’s just not going to happen. No QB would. Brady, who leads the league, has almost double the attempts that Jones has.
Meanwhile, he is doing everything necessary to win games for the giants.
I’ll never understand the people on here.
Yes and it's exactly why the Giants won't win in the playoffs.
If Jones is not resigned or tagged, some team will sign him for a much better deal than that.
Jones is finally in a system in which he is being used correctly. Do you think he is anxious to move somewhere else and possibly regress?
I think the terms above are absolutely fair. I don't think any team in FS is going to look at Jones as their long-term answer and pay him top tier QB money. He is playing well in a run-first system that has an elite RB. He is playing smart, error-free football. He is not being asked to carry the offense and I don't think any team looking for that will offer him anything more than a short term deal to bridge them to their next QB.
They are scouting everyone. That’s their effing job. And they could realistically lose Jones now even if they want him back-so they damn well better. You’re saying the sky is blue. Congrats.
Perfect cast to succeed?? What has he done this year?
For the last 2 years all I heard was how Herbert could step into Jones situation and elevate everyone around him. He looked like dogshit last night with his 2 starting WRs out.
Jones just needs NFL players to make plays...like most other QBs in the NFL.
Some of the takes around here are just odd.
What Jones is showing conclusively is he DOES NOT need everything perfect to win games.
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Those who think otherwise don't know what they're watching.
They are scouting everyone. That’s their effing job. And they could realistically lose Jones now even if they want him back-so they damn well better. You’re saying the sky is blue. Congrats.
I'm saying believing Jones is the QB to lead NYG to SB wins will be proven off-target. I'm not remotely afraid to lose or replace Jones.
If the Giants aren't scouting college QB this year, they should be fired. If Jones were a slamdunk they would have started negotiating at the bye.
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In comment 15906498 JonC said:
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Those who think otherwise don't know what they're watching.
They are scouting everyone. That’s their effing job. And they could realistically lose Jones now even if they want him back-so they damn well better. You’re saying the sky is blue. Congrats.
I'm saying believing Jones is the QB to lead NYG to SB wins will be proven off-target. I'm not remotely afraid to lose or replace Jones.
Thats a high mark for a QB. Lot of great QBs will never win a SB or even get there.
I think you are completely wrong on his reads. He was calling plays at the LoS yesterday. You could hear him making the calls just before the snap. Put it to bed. I did not see any reads that he made yesterday that were wrong. And this one read and done is a crock of crap. I have seen a few videos where the analyst shows Jones looking off safeties or going threw his progressions.
And if you do not think running wins in the playoffs - look at the 1991 super bowl. It depends on how the team is built.
If Jones is not resigned or tagged, some team will sign him for a much better deal than that.
Because you'd basically be guaranteeing him two tags up front. It's a tiny bit below the tag value (and the tag value +20% for year two on the tag), but it guarantees both years. If DJ plateaus in 2023 even with a better supporting cast, he could find himself in no-man's land for 2024.
It really depends how much Team Jones is willing to bet on himself and how aware he is about his dependence on the roster that surrounds him. He could, instead, be offered the franchise tag and create a scenario where Barkley leaves in FA. Would DJ look as good in 2023 without Barkley? Now let's add just one extra variable to that - let's say Thomas' ankle acts up in 2023 to go along with Barkley being gone. Do you think Team Jones would feel really confident about DJ's ability to earn a substantial contract on the tag with those two key pieces out of the mix?
I'm not saying that DJ should or would accept the contract that is proposed here, but I can think of a few reasonable scenarios where it could be viewed as a win/win. At a minimum, it puts DJ's price tag in line with the market rates - that perception is very valuable for DJ's earning potential going forward. Conversely, if he bets on himself and ends up in the journeyman/bridge tier for 2024, that's a much harder perception to wash off.
Personally, I don't see any compromise contracts for DJ. I think there are only three realistic scenarios as of right now:
1) Giants sign DJ long-term (4+ years). AAV will be at/above $30MM. This is the scenario if JS/BD are comfortable with what they've seen from DJ and confident in him going forward.
2) Giants tag DJ for 2023 and then re-evaluate for 2024 and beyond. This is the scenario is JS/BD are encouraged by some of what DJ has done this year, but still have too much uncertainty (whether that's due to scheme, to lack of weapons, or to DJ himself, or any combination of those).
3) Giants let DJ test free agency unencumbered, and potentially let him walk. This is the scenario where JS/BD feel like they have gameplanned around DJ's skill set all year and would prefer to find a QB who is more naturally aligned with what they want to do offensively.
The third scenario is the only one where I could even fathom DJ accepting a compromise contract (either fewer years, lower AAV, or both), and would only happen if the rest of the league also viewed DJ unfavorably (in terms of contract value).
Rush is not eligible, he's no longer on the QBR list
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What we are witnessing is a coaching staff that is running an offense completely tailored to Jones' strengths and weaknesses. It's such a simple offense and once we play a good defense, Jones won't be able to move the ball. He still has poor pocket presence and a poor ability to read a defense and know where to go with the ball when his first read isn't there.
I think you are completely wrong on his reads. He was calling plays at the LoS yesterday. You could hear him making the calls just before the snap. Put it to bed. I did not see any reads that he made yesterday that were wrong. And this one read and done is a crock of crap. I have seen a few videos where the analyst shows Jones looking off safeties or going threw his progressions.
And if you do not think running wins in the playoffs - look at the 1991 super bowl. It depends on how the team is built.
I disagree completely. Can you show me these videos? Its pretty obvious to me for the most part. It's not every single play, but the majority of plays where his first read isn't open, he panics and either runs of throws a bad pass. He's like a poor mans RG3, IMO.
People here make no sense.
Thank God they are not in charge.
What quarterback would be better than 7-2 playing on this team? Brady-n0, Rodgers-no, etc
The Giants need to upgrade the QB if they want to take the next step from playoff team to true contender.
Or it could be a coaching staff running an offense tailored to the "team" strengths (crappy WR's, lousy IOL pass blocking, great RB, mobile QB), and it has nothing to do with Jones weaknesses. It is just as reasonable to think that Jones is "playing within himself" to run the offense the team needs to run, and could also run an offense that is more pass happy and open
Jones will be the QB next year, its just a matter of whether Schoen likes Jones long term.
There is so little room for error that Jones gets shit for missing one pass that Slayton was open on...and on the next play DJ threw a dime to a WR who just got picked up off the streets.
I think the odds of Jones being back are around 20-30%.
I don't think this passing offense performance / record discrepancy is sustainable (and not all of that passing offense production performance is on Jones, of course).
Nevertheless, by QBR standards, he is currently playing top ten football.
But there is no reason to stop scouting QB prospects who are more physically gifted than Jones.
What we are seeing is a perfect collision of play-calling exploiting what Jones can do and Jones executing that plan.
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In comment 15906569 Kmed6000 said:
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What we are witnessing is a coaching staff that is running an offense completely tailored to Jones' strengths and weaknesses. It's such a simple offense and once we play a good defense, Jones won't be able to move the ball. He still has poor pocket presence and a poor ability to read a defense and know where to go with the ball when his first read isn't there.
I think you are completely wrong on his reads. He was calling plays at the LoS yesterday. You could hear him making the calls just before the snap. Put it to bed. I did not see any reads that he made yesterday that were wrong. And this one read and done is a crock of crap. I have seen a few videos where the analyst shows Jones looking off safeties or going threw his progressions.
And if you do not think running wins in the playoffs - look at the 1991 super bowl. It depends on how the team is built.
I disagree completely. Can you show me these videos? Its pretty obvious to me for the most part. It's not every single play, but the majority of plays where his first read isn't open, he panics and either runs of throws a bad pass. He's like a poor mans RG3, IMO.
Look it up yourself - Baldy and Simms(IIRC) and I believe Skinner. I do not dwell on things too long.
Are you an NFL scout? Did you play college football as QB? For a guy with 66% completion and only 2 INTs, pretty hard to say he panics and makes bad throws on a majority of plays.
I have heard this "he can't make reads" from BBI, but I have not seen outside evidence. You may be right and analysts just keep it to themselves. IDK
I did not play, so I cannot confidently say he can or cannot read - but I can see him stand there for quite a while before he leaves the pocket. So the panic part is BS. He absolutely has his limitations. I think they will move on as much because of the cost of retaining him as a middle of the pack QB. They can likely retain 3 or 4 guys for what it would cost to keep him.
I have no issues calling out posters who said Barkley sucks and Jones sucks.
Onto Detroit.
It’s like he’s mad there’s not a lot of criticism of Jones yesterday.
That's the OP's forte. Notice when Jones slipped out of the top ten in QBR, and dropped to 13th, nobody posted a call-out thread going the other way.
Speaks volumes...
This is an important point that a lot of people are ignoring. If they were 100% sold on him there would have been negotiations like there were with Love and Barkley. Jones may be back next year, but the odds aren’t as high as people want to think they are - and the odds of a long term deal are probably lower.
If the Bears get some better parts and continues to improve his passing, Fields is on a collision course for a top 6-8 QB in the NFL.
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WRs - well below average
Rushing (RBs/QB) - way above average
OL - MUCH, MUCH better at run blocking than pass blocking
And they play/will play in cold weather
Why is it so hard to understand that the game plan should revolve around running the ball? I don’t understand why people can’t comprehend that. Stop comparing this team to other NFL teams and using the words “not sustainable.” They are 7-2. Obviously it is.
Jones will never throw for 300+ yards and 3 TDs when he has 20 passing attempts per game. It’s just not going to happen. No QB would. Brady, who leads the league, has almost double the attempts that Jones has.
Meanwhile, he is doing everything necessary to win games for the giants.
I’ll never understand the people on here.
Yes and it's exactly why the Giants won't win in the playoffs.
Bullshit. They have done exactly that on their way to four super bowls. Are they talented enough to do so this year? Probably not. But this is a model you can win with. Just look NFL playoff history.
We have been great at keeping games close this year (defense and run game are fantastic), but I am keen to see what happens when we get down by two scores early against a good team.
I don't know if Jones has that in him, especially given his lack of weapons at WR
We have been great at keeping games close this year (defense and run game are fantastic), but I am keen to see what happens when we get down by two scores early against a good team.
I don't know if Jones has that in him, especially given his lack of weapons at WR
Weren't we down by 2 scores to Tenn, Baltimore, and Green Bay?
I also think how he plays vs the meat of the NFC East will play a role into how we ALL feel. If he splits with Philly and DAL and wins a playoff game? If he gets crushed by PHI and DAL throwing for 120yds? He's in a real life American Idol fighting for that next contract. Lets see how he does, so far he's showing up.
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In comment 15906601 section125 said:
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In comment 15906569 Kmed6000 said:
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What we are witnessing is a coaching staff that is running an offense completely tailored to Jones' strengths and weaknesses. It's such a simple offense and once we play a good defense, Jones won't be able to move the ball. He still has poor pocket presence and a poor ability to read a defense and know where to go with the ball when his first read isn't there.
I think you are completely wrong on his reads. He was calling plays at the LoS yesterday. You could hear him making the calls just before the snap. Put it to bed. I did not see any reads that he made yesterday that were wrong. And this one read and done is a crock of crap. I have seen a few videos where the analyst shows Jones looking off safeties or going threw his progressions.
And if you do not think running wins in the playoffs - look at the 1991 super bowl. It depends on how the team is built.
I disagree completely. Can you show me these videos? Its pretty obvious to me for the most part. It's not every single play, but the majority of plays where his first read isn't open, he panics and either runs of throws a bad pass. He's like a poor mans RG3, IMO.
Look it up yourself - Baldy and Simms(IIRC) and I believe Skinner. I do not dwell on things too long.
Are you an NFL scout? Did you play college football as QB? For a guy with 66% completion and only 2 INTs, pretty hard to say he panics and makes bad throws on a majority of plays.
I have heard this "he can't make reads" from BBI, but I have not seen outside evidence. You may be right and analysts just keep it to themselves. IDK
I did not play, so I cannot confidently say he can or cannot read - but I can see him stand there for quite a while before he leaves the pocket. So the panic part is BS. He absolutely has his limitations. I think they will move on as much because of the cost of retaining him as a middle of the pack QB. They can likely retain 3 or 4 guys for what it would cost to keep him.
Got it, so you made it up lol
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and is good at executing a very narrow gameplan that plays to his strengths.
We have been great at keeping games close this year (defense and run game are fantastic), but I am keen to see what happens when we get down by two scores early against a good team.
I don't know if Jones has that in him, especially given his lack of weapons at WR
Weren't we down by 2 scores to Tenn, Baltimore, and Green Bay?
LMAO. Screw the facts. Let’s just stick to our DJ narratives.
Some of the takes around here are just odd.
What Jones is showing conclusively is he DOES NOT need everything perfect to win games.
Bullshit. They have done exactly that on their way to four super bowls. Are they talented enough to do so this year? Probably not. But this is a model you can win with. Just look NFL playoff history.
The Giants last two super bowls were built on the passing game. The last one they were in fact the worst rushing team in the league. In 2011 he averaged 304 yards per game in the post season.
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in the NFL and had to have one of them to lead you the rest of this season, my guess is that DJ is somewhere between 10-15 on the list. If you had to choose someone to lead you for the next five years, my guess is he is still 10-15, with just a different group in front of him.
If healthy he has fallen in that range his entire career, maybe 15-20, unlikley to break the top 10. The idea that we don't know what we have in DJ really did not make sense last year, and is silly this year. He is a mid-range NFL starter. Good enough to win, not good enough to be why you win. Good enough to keep if the contract is right, but the price of the contract is going up every week. 6 weeks ago I would have happily signed him to 3/$60 and thought he might take it. You would be lucky to get him at 3/$90 at this point.
Hope I am wrong and he is better than that, or that we can get him back cheaper, if we want him. But that is the lay of the land as I see it.
I agree with you though I think 3year $75-80mil with incentives on top gets it done and is fair to both sides. He's going to want more than 2years to sign anything but he hasn't proven enough to merit a BIG contract. Also don't think he'll have many suitors willing to pay more than that.
The AAV you're suggesting just does not exist in the NFL QB market. Established starters make >$30M per year; journeymen/bridge QBs make <$20M per year. DJ's agent would be crazy to not start the negotiations north of $30M because he can at least try to force the Giants' hand with the franchise tag by doing so.
It's not impossible that DJ accepts a contract that lands in the $20-$30M AAV gap, but it's extremely unlikely, IMO. And it's even more unlikely that he'd be willing to accept a multi-year deal that lands him in that nonexistent AAV tier. If he's going to accept a prove-it price point, he's likely only going to take it for a year so that he can get right back into FA to try for a larger contract.
Unless he has absolutely no confidence in himself or thinks there's a genuine risk that he could end up as a backup in the near future, DJ has no incentive to accept a 3 year deal with an AAV below $30M. As long as he considers himself a bona fide starting NFL quarterback, he could go year to year and end up north of $80M over the next three years, easily.
All of these contract suggestions that run counter to what the NFL QB market landscape looks like seem silly, IMO. DJ will either make more than $30M annually, or less than $20M annually. And if it's the latter, it'll probably be for another team, IMO.
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In
Bullshit. They have done exactly that on their way to four super bowls. Are they talented enough to do so this year? Probably not. But this is a model you can win with. Just look NFL playoff history.
The Giants last two super bowls were built on the passing game. The last one they were in fact the worst rushing team in the league. In 2011 he averaged 304 yards per game in the post season.
Go look at the playoffs in 2011. Atlanta and then the SB.
Not sure why you continually post incorrect information.
9 games played this season:
2 games throwing over 200 yards(217 and 202).
He is 23rd in passing yards and 31st in passing yards per game.
He has 8 TD passes which is less than 1 per game.
He is 24th in passing TD's.
The Giants have created a VERY safe offense which allows them to control the game on the ground, not turn the ball over in the air and play stout defense. The formula is working, but I don't know many teams that win like this in the playoffs.
The Giants have created a VERY safe offense which allows them to control the game on the ground, not turn the ball over in the air and play stout defense. The formula is working, but I don't know many teams that win like this in the playoffs.
Probably not many, but it is our only chance this year. We need much better WRs in order to say what will work best for us.
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with one of the worst supporting casts in the NFL. As O’Hara put it: nobody is doing more with less than DJ.
Some of the takes around here are just odd.
What Jones is showing conclusively is he DOES NOT need everything perfect to win games.
Great post. I know that Ibam enjoying watching games and our QBakes plays when we need him to.
We have arguably the best run game in the NFL. How does he have the worst supporting cast? We have arguably the best LT and a 1st rounder at RT whos played well enough. Our offensive line has been solid. We have an amazing coaching staff that understands what our strengths and weaknesses are and play to that. This is such an exaggerated statement.
Go look at the playoffs in 2011. Atlanta and then the SB.
Not sure why you continually post incorrect information.
What is incorrect about it? They were the 5th best passing team in the league that year, 32nd in run.
Do the two games in between those two not count toward winning a Super Bowl? The Coughlin teams weren’t run first teams.
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In my view, the OP would be of more value without the call-outs. It is just asking to argue with people.
I have no issues calling out posters who said Barkley sucks and Jones sucks.
As long as you're cool with it being pointed out every time you're wrong. Because that tends to happen with far more frequency, and yet I don't see anyone jumping in at the top of every thread with callouts about your wrong takes like you do. And let's be honest, you aren't even right in the way that you think you are.
For example, most of the issues with SB have been about durability and positional value. Nothing about those concerns have been disproven - the #2 overall draft slot was still too high for a RB for a team on the precipice of a rebuild, and Barkley HAS missed significant time over the years due to injury. Those concerns have been validated. You didn't win that argument.
And for DJ, some of the concerns have been about giving him enough support to succeed once his rookie contract is up, because they were unable to do so when he was cheap and it will only get more difficult as DJ gets more expensive. You haven't been proven right on that one, either. It is still an open question!
You don't have enough credibility to be constantly chirping with these misguided "I told you so" callouts. You've been a pollyanna for years. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but no one is going to trust it as their alarm.
At this point, I trust the guys running this team to decide if he's got another level they can get to with better players around him. If they bring him back, it's because they believe in them and who would I be to argue?
I wouldn't be afraid to move on from him either. You don't want your team's ceiling to be held back by the QB and if they decide he would be doing that, it's best to move on.
Either way, I'm enjoying how he's playing this year. He's been smart, tough and dependable and is one reason this team is winning games.
At this point, I trust the guys running this team to decide if he's got another level they can get to with better players around him. If they bring him back, it's because they believe in them and who would I be to argue?
I wouldn't be afraid to move on from him either. You don't want your team's ceiling to be held back by the QB and if they decide he would be doing that, it's best to move on.
Either way, I'm enjoying how he's playing this year. He's been smart, tough and dependable and is one reason this team is winning games.
I can certainly get behind this message. Well said, IMO.
At this point, I trust the guys running this team to decide if he's got another level they can get to with better players around him. If they bring him back, it's because they believe in them and who would I be to argue?
I wouldn't be afraid to move on from him either. You don't want your team's ceiling to be held back by the QB and if they decide he would be doing that, it's best to move on.
Either way, I'm enjoying how he's playing this year. He's been smart, tough and dependable and is one reason this team is winning games.
+1. I agree. This is the point I keep trying to make. The only ones who really know what Jones can fully do are Daboll/Kafka/Schoen. We will see what they think is the right thing with him moving forward. Right now they are winning with a game plan around our team strengths/weaknesses, not necessarily Jones.
At this point, I trust the guys running this team to decide if he's got another level they can get to with better players around him. If they bring him back, it's because they believe in them and who would I be to argue?
I wouldn't be afraid to move on from him either. You don't want your team's ceiling to be held back by the QB and if they decide he would be doing that, it's best to move on.
Either way, I'm enjoying how he's playing this year. He's been smart, tough and dependable and is one reason this team is winning games.
I think this is a great post, and I agree with putting faith in whichever way JS & BD decide to go at QB.
There’s a lot to discuss about the contract and what it’ll be worth, but nobody can claim being right yet.
We will see how it plays out. The QBGC will be wrong as usual as will Gatorade who is in that group but at least we get some nice stats and spreadsheets of data.
Tough choice for the Giants coming up.
I did not play, so I cannot confidently say he can or cannot read - but I can see him stand there for quite a while before he leaves the pocket. So the panic part is BS. He absolutely has his limitations. I think they will move on as much because of the cost of retaining him as a middle of the pack QB. They can likely retain 3 or 4 guys for what it would cost to keep him.
Got it, so you made it up lol
Made up what? That I saw a few videos where they show DJ making reads? I saw them. I believe that someone posted them here for viewing and I am absolutely certain that Baldy
was one of the analysts....if you don't want to believe that, that is not on me. That is on you. Why would I make it up?
But as I said, the only place I have ever heard that Jones is a one read QB is on BBI. It may be true, but I have only read it here.
I am not looking to get into it, but what about your claim on panic and bad throws. Where is that evidence? 66% completion percentage, 2 Ints says otherwise. And we all know how many drops per game there are. You said he makes one read, panics and runs...
So I guess you made it up...
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1
passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If the Bears get some better parts and continues to improve his passing, Fields is on a collision course for a top 6-8 QB in the NFL.
Really interesting what's going on in Chicago. They turned Fields loose running 4 weeks back and its changed their season. But he is taking shots that for example LJax never does.
I don't think that will be sustainable, but for the sake of my fantasy season I hope it at least lasts the year.
Before the season started, I think our nightmare scenario for the season was that the Giants would win just enough games to not be able to draft a QB and/or the OL would be so terrible we couldn’t evaluate DJ. I think this front office will guarantee their ability to truly be able to evaluate DJ by trading Toney and not signing a WR (OBJ, etc).
I think we’re going into 2023 not knowing if DJ is a franchise QB or not. I think the answer will be to tag him.
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
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1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
Well he is running an offense that is leading us to wins, so yes with the team he has - I think he is quite happy.
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Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
Well he is running an offense that is leading us to wins, so yes with the team he has - I think he is quite happy.
I can't disagree, but the luck will eventually run out. We should be preparing to beat the best teams in the league, not the league's pushovers.
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In comment 15906901 Producer said:
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1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
My "brain box" really thinks Daboll wants to win, and when looking at our lousy WRs, our poor pass protection of the IOL, Barkley, and our mobile QB, this is the best way to do it. Why would you throw it 35-40 times with our WRs on the receiving end, and limit Barkley's touches?
Can't your "brain box" understand that this may not be Jones specific, like your heavily biased opinion says, and may be a decision made by looking at the big picture?
Not knowing if your current QB is capable of doing that makes shelling out a long term deal extremely difficult. Schoen and Daboll likely see it the same way, else they would have had extension discussions already.
I can't disagree, but the luck will eventually run out. We should be preparing to beat the best teams in the league, not the league's pushovers.
Like Tennessee, Baltimore, and Green Bay?
You aren't proving anything, not sure if you know that.
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In comment 15906909 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15906901 Producer said:
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1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
My "brain box" really thinks Daboll wants to win, and when looking at our lousy WRs, our poor pass protection of the IOL, Barkley, and our mobile QB, this is the best way to do it. Why would you throw it 35-40 times with our WRs on the receiving end, and limit Barkley's touches?
Can't your "brain box" understand that this may not be Jones specific, like your heavily biased opinion says, and may be a decision made by looking at the big picture?
the OL and WR excuses are starting to whither away. The line is much better and receivers, esp Slayton, are playing better, and we are still left with a remedial passing game. Jones is very good running the ball, he is efficient when he doesn't have to pass much, and he has never demonstrated the ability to lead a high flying / high production passing attack. You have to agree with those observations. And until he demonstrates he can do the latter on a consistent basis, he's not worth anything but lower tier starter dollars.
You aren't proving anything, not sure if you know that.
To be fair though, outside of Jackson which of those other QBs in the back half would people take here?
the OL and WR excuses are starting to whither away. The line is much better and receivers, esp Slayton, are playing better, and we are still left with a remedial passing game. Jones is very good running the ball, he is efficient when he doesn't have to pass much, and he has never demonstrated the ability to lead a high flying / high production passing attack. You have to agree with those observations. And until he demonstrates he can do the latter on a consistent basis, he's not worth anything but lower tier starter dollars.
LOL, excuses? What WRs are playing better other than Slayton who is still number 3 at best? You mean like the David Sills started 8 games this year and was so bad, he was inactive this week. You mean Kenny Golladay is playing better? LOL!
that's top 10, correct?
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you don't see a correlation to the weapons on offense and those rankings? A bunch of those teams in the back half are going to the playoffs.
You aren't proving anything, not sure if you know that.
To be fair though, outside of Jackson which of those other QBs in the back half would people take here?
Not many. But my point is that the goal of a Mahomes/Allen doesn't = everything else bad. If you don't have an elite passer and/or elite pass catchers, you are going to have to find another way to win and there's a bunch of teams that are doing that right now.
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In comment 15906909 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15906901 Producer said:
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1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
My "brain box" really thinks Daboll wants to win, and when looking at our lousy WRs, our poor pass protection of the IOL, Barkley, and our mobile QB, this is the best way to do it. Why would you throw it 35-40 times with our WRs on the receiving end, and limit Barkley's touches?
Can't your "brain box" understand that this may not be Jones specific, like your heavily biased opinion says, and may be a decision made by looking at the big picture?
the OL and WR excuses are starting to whither away. The line is much better and receivers, esp Slayton, are playing better, and we are still left with a remedial passing game. Jones is very good running the ball, he is efficient when he doesn't have to pass much, and he has never demonstrated the ability to lead a high flying / high production passing attack. You have to agree with those observations. And until he demonstrates he can do the latter on a consistent basis, he's not worth anything but lower tier starter dollars.
You hurt your argument with your "no more excuses" comment. Our second leading receiver yesterday was literally signed last week, while our supposed #1 WR Golladay is dropping passes left and right (passes that would have made Jones' numbers look a lot better, by the way). Our best TE and two starting OL are still missing, and those taking their places are either journeymen or working back from injury. I also wouldn't say the line has "improved" based on a good rushing day against the worst rush D in the league. They certainly weren't opening holes in Seattle 2 weeks ago.
The fact is, the Giants are playing a specific style that they think gives them the best chance to win. You seem convinced they're doing it because they can't count on Jones. I'm not convinced Jones is the answer either, but he's playing error-free football and making positive plays with a short-handed cast, which is more than a lot of critics said he was capable of before the season started.
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applying a lot of weight to the running ability of a QB, Justin Fields is now 11th in the NFL in QBR. He's having a brilliant year running.
If the Bears get some better parts and continues to improve his passing, Fields is on a collision course for a top 6-8 QB in the NFL.
Really interesting what's going on in Chicago. They turned Fields loose running 4 weeks back and its changed their season. But he is taking shots that for example LJax never does.
I don't think that will be sustainable, but for the sake of my fantasy season I hope it at least lasts the year.
I agree. Getsy, the OC, has given him the green light to run, run, run. Fields is a big, fast kid who isn't afraid to lay the lumber on defensive players. But that needs to change, and he needs to play more like LJax with his decision making.
Further, that Bears OL is a disgrace, too. Despite that, Fields is making some unreal plays with both his arm and legs.
Look, this is where the NFL is. You need multi-faceted QBs who can make plays with their arms and legs. That's why big credit goes to Daboll/Kafka for creating an offense that really suits Jones right now and optimizes his running skills.
Look, this is where the NFL is. You need multi-faceted QBs who can make plays with their arms and legs. That's why big credit goes to Daboll/Kafka for creating an offense that really suits Jones right now and optimizes his running skills.
Yep. I thought Fields was lost. He has looked good since the Giants game.
I also think how he plays vs the meat of the NFC East will play a role into how we ALL feel. If he splits with Philly and DAL and wins a playoff game? If he gets crushed by PHI and DAL throwing for 120yds? He's in a real life American Idol fighting for that next contract. Lets see how he does, so far he's showing up.
Why would we negotiate with Jones at this point? What you think does not really matter .
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In comment 15906909 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15906901 Producer said:
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1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
My "brain box" really thinks Daboll wants to win, and when looking at our lousy WRs, our poor pass protection of the IOL, Barkley, and our mobile QB, this is the best way to do it. Why would you throw it 35-40 times with our WRs on the receiving end, and limit Barkley's touches?
Can't your "brain box" understand that this may not be Jones specific, like your heavily biased opinion says, and may be a decision made by looking at the big picture?
the OL and WR excuses are starting to whither away. The line is much better and receivers, esp Slayton, are playing better, and we are still left with a remedial passing game. Jones is very good running the ball, he is efficient when he doesn't have to pass much, and he has never demonstrated the ability to lead a high flying / high production passing attack. You have to agree with those observations. And until he demonstrates he can do the latter on a consistent basis, he's not worth anything but lower tier starter dollars.
Your dislike for DJ has not withered away but your reasoning is questionable. I do like the high/flying production passing attack. What ever that is.
Let me ask you a question. First context. Daniel Jones has thrown the fewest pass completions in the NFL of over 20 yards plus among starters who have started at least 7 games. Kenny Pickett has one fewer, but he's only started 6 games.
Bailey Zappe and Jameis Winston have a combined 7 starts, and have more than double the number of 20+ yard pass completions with 27. DJ has 12. Jameis has 3 starts and 13 completions with of more than 20+ yards.
In terms of total air yards, the only NFL starters with fewer are those that have missed games because of injury or because of benching: Zach Wilson, Kenny Pickett, Ryan Tannehill, Mac Jones, Dak Prescott, Baker Mayfield.
Is this the offense you think Daboll and Kafka want to run?
His air yards are among the bottom, his yards per attempt are among the bottom, his attempts are among the bottom, passing TDs among the bottom.
Yet we are waxing poetic and I'm reading about his passer rating of all things...HIS PASSER RATING, which is about as meaningless a stat in football.
Do you know what happens to DJ's passer rating if Jalen Pitre makes the tackle on Slayton? Neither do I. But if Slayton doesn't break that tackle (on a 3-yard completion) and take it to the house and we simply remove that YAC and score from DJ's ledger, his rating is 102.33.
Now I'm not one for if my aunt had a penis she'd be my uncle arguments, but this just goes to show how insignificant this stat is. If Slayton's great play results in a 50 point bump for Jones on his passer rating, why are we heaping the kudos on Jones. Great play by Slayton! He threw the ball 17 times. Let's be real. Passer rating has some value when you are calculating it over the course of a season, or half a season...large numbers need to go in to the calculus for it to be worth anything. 17 attempts...it's a nothing-burger.
I give DJ a ton of credit for managing the game well. For not turning the ball over. He's proven the Giants can win some games as long as he continues to do those things and as long as the defense plays well and Saquon is here and healthy.
But Saquon had 36 touches yesterday. They ran the ball more than double the amount of times they asked Jones to throw it. Again, I ask...is this the offense you think Daboll and Kafka want to run. Will this type of offense be sustainable, and will it win in the playoffs?
Yes, I want to see better receivers. I want to see what Jones can do in a passing game that looks more like KC's or Buffalo's.
But I've watched that game, and I didn't come away with, "wow, Jones played so great, he really won us that game."
What won yesterday was Saquon, Dexter Lawrence, Leo Williams, Julian Love, and maybe then...DJ for managing the game well, getting some timely scrambles and not turning the ball over.
And this is the last thing I'll say...you're watching one of the most mediocre (to use an optimistic word) passing offenses in the NFL with mediocre scoring output weekly and every week all we read is how great DJ is. Without Saquon, this offense would sink to the very bottom of the league. He is keeping this team afloat offensively, and everything that works is playing off of Saquon.
BTW, the OP is talking about QBR, which is a significantly different approach than the traditional Passer Rating formula.
I believe that is why he will not be re-signed. But to just whisk away the incompetence at the WR position is disingenuous too.
BTW, the OP is talking about QBR, which is a significantly different approach than the traditional Passer Rating formula.
Yeah I realize that my post wasn't clear on who exactly I was responding to (intentionally). I was not responding to the OP in general but generically to posters that have been pumping up that stat yesterday and today and to the ones calling out anyone that dares to do anything but heap accolades on DJ.
That's MORE than fair. You're completely right. In terms of credit, Slayton is ahead of Jones because the Giants needed that TD when Slayton made that play.
Jones did extend some drives and controlled the game, he gets some credit, but he's down the list some.
And as I have said since January - who they can find to replace him must be factored into the equation of whether or not to sign him. The fact that guys like Levis, Van Dyke, and other college QBs have been lousy complicates the question, as does the winning the Giants are doing
Fields - this is what Greg Cosell said yesterday about him:
@GregCosell breaks down what he is seeing from Fields and the Bears on tape: “Their pass game is essentially remedial and elementary…”
I believe that is why he will not be re-signed. But to just whisk away the incompetence at the WR position is disingenuous too.
If this is in response to me I haven't done this. I've always said that the lack of talent at WR matters. It's certainly relevant to the overall numbers, the offensive design, all of it. It also doesn't mean with a big leap forward in terms of receiver talent, that DJ will also look as dynamic a passer as even Kirk Cousins.
Let's consider the case for Tua. A weak-armed QB who couldn't throw the deep ball. Once again, the team was looking to replace him. Now he's looking fine that he has 2 very dangerous WRs in Waddle and Hill.
Let's now consider the case for QBs who are unquestionably great, who now have porous offensive lines and/or no WRs of any consequence like Rodgers who has been getting sacked and has no decent WRs. Like Brady who lost his security to remain a pocket passer when his Oline deteriorated. Like Stafford whose Oline also deteriorated and he has no time to find his receivers as easily and as often as he would like.
That leaves the GM with two options. Option #1 is you keep the QB and do all you can to build an adequate offensive line and elite receivers through the draft or free agency.
Option #2 is you draft a new QB. However, this has its drawbacks because you will probably have to mortgage future draft picks, which eliminates the team's chances for improving the offensive line and obtaining elite WRs. The new QB will therefore not be in the best environment to succeed until the team can provide him with adequate protections and elite WRs. Chances are slim that will happen immediately. There is also the risk that the new QB may not even be as good as the one he is supposed to replace.
The GM and coach must make good decisions as to what is best for the team. In my opinion, if you already have a QB who has led his team to a 7-2 record, imagine how even more successful he could be if you protect him better and add better talent at WR and/or other positions of weakness. Drafting a new QB delays improving the other positions. That then requires adding talent through FA, which we all know is expensive and is no guarantee. Not all good players thrive in a different environment and system.
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Jones is having a great year. He isn't. But he is winning and that is all Daboll is asking him to do.
I believe that is why he will not be re-signed. But to just whisk away the incompetence at the WR position is disingenuous too.
If this is in response to me I haven't done this. I've always said that the lack of talent at WR matters. It's certainly relevant to the overall numbers, the offensive design, all of it. It also doesn't mean with a big leap forward in terms of receiver talent, that DJ will also look as dynamic a passer as even Kirk Cousins.
Two or three games back Sy made a comment saying something to the effect of what Jones would look like with better than near league bottom WR talent. I think it was the Ravens game.
I am with you in that I think he is gone after this year. Not the type QB Daboll wants. And there is no doubt Daboll and Kafka are managing the offense in a certain conservative way and it is a combination or reasons plus when you have a Saquon Barkley you lean in him.
But I do not think you can not expect Jones to have better numbers if he had mid-level WR corp - or even just one Stefan Diggs or a CeeDee Lamb.
I find it hysterical that fans think coaches and GMs simplify their QB evaluation to the point where team wins are even remotely close to the most important factor for any individual player.
It's fine if fans want to take such a simplistic approach to say that they don't want to fix what appears to be unbroken, but the coaches and front office executives are privy to what factors they're handcuffing themselves with in order to keep that scenario unbroken in the first place.
The short version is that I feel very confident in saying that the team's W/L record may help DJ's cause in his contract negotiations but will be far from the top factor the team considers when they are faced with a long view of their future at the QB position, especially when they are winning in a way that asks relatively little of the QB, compared to the offensive schemes with which our offensive coaches share their pedigree (Buffalo and Kansas City, most notably).
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That people think the coaches, GM and players care more about advanced passing stats than wins. It is really a foolish take and the motivation for it considering the context of the last few years of posting from certain members, it is obvious why.
I find it hysterical that fans think coaches and GMs simplify their QB evaluation to the point where team wins are even remotely close to the most important factor for any individual player.
It's fine if fans want to take such a simplistic approach to say that they don't want to fix what appears to be unbroken, but the coaches and front office executives are privy to what factors they're handcuffing themselves with in order to keep that scenario unbroken in the first place.
The short version is that I feel very confident in saying that the team's W/L record may help DJ's cause in his contract negotiations but will be far from the top factor the team considers when they are faced with a long view of their future at the QB position, especially when they are winning in a way that asks relatively little of the QB, compared to the offensive schemes with which our offensive coaches share their pedigree (Buffalo and Kansas City, most notably).
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Jones is having a great year. He isn't. But he is winning and that is all Daboll is asking him to do.
I believe that is why he will not be re-signed. But to just whisk away the incompetence at the WR position is disingenuous too.
If this is in response to me I haven't done this. I've always said that the lack of talent at WR matters. It's certainly relevant to the overall numbers, the offensive design, all of it. It also doesn't mean with a big leap forward in terms of receiver talent, that DJ will also look as dynamic a passer as even Kirk Cousins.
Yes but this is my point. You don't know that he won't look better than Cousins. We don't know, and for posters to continually make believe they do know is nonsense. Daboll/Kafka probably have an idea, but thats about it.
After the season Daboll and Schoen will decide, and then we will know what their opinion is, because I do agree this is not the offense moving forward. Whatever they think I am fine with. I just get a little tired of the constant bashing by people who really have no idea what the truth is
That's not at all what we are saying, and I think you know it.
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In comment 15906982 Thegratefulhead said:
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That people think the coaches, GM and players care more about advanced passing stats than wins. It is really a foolish take and the motivation for it considering the context of the last few years of posting from certain members, it is obvious why.
I find it hysterical that fans think coaches and GMs simplify their QB evaluation to the point where team wins are even remotely close to the most important factor for any individual player.
It's fine if fans want to take such a simplistic approach to say that they don't want to fix what appears to be unbroken, but the coaches and front office executives are privy to what factors they're handcuffing themselves with in order to keep that scenario unbroken in the first place.
The short version is that I feel very confident in saying that the team's W/L record may help DJ's cause in his contract negotiations but will be far from the top factor the team considers when they are faced with a long view of their future at the QB position, especially when they are winning in a way that asks relatively little of the QB, compared to the offensive schemes with which our offensive coaches share their pedigree (Buffalo and Kansas City, most notably).
I feel confident that by far, the most meaningful stat to all of ownership, management and players is wins. So we disagree on a profound level on this topic. Not a lot reason for us to unpack it.
Fair enough. Let me know how you think they should valuate DJ for his next contract with the approach you have in mind.
He already beat Rodgers H2H, so if the Giants also finish the season with more wins than Green Bay, is it safe to say you'd endorse $50M+ AAV for DJ since he'd have better numbers in your only valuable metric?
Let's consider the case for Tua. A weak-armed QB who couldn't throw the deep ball. Once again, the team was looking to replace him. Now he's looking fine that he has 2 very dangerous WRs in Waddle and Hill.
Let's now consider the case for QBs who are unquestionably great, who now have porous offensive lines and/or no WRs of any consequence like Rodgers who has been getting sacked and has no decent WRs. Like Brady who lost his security to remain a pocket passer when his Oline deteriorated. Like Stafford whose Oline also deteriorated and he has no time to find his receivers as easily and as often as he would like.
That leaves the GM with two options. Option #1 is you keep the QB and do all you can to build an adequate offensive line and elite receivers through the draft or free agency.
Option #2 is you draft a new QB. However, this has its drawbacks because you will probably have to mortgage future draft picks, which eliminates the team's chances for improving the offensive line and obtaining elite WRs. The new QB will therefore not be in the best environment to succeed until the team can provide him with adequate protections and elite WRs. Chances are slim that will happen immediately. There is also the risk that the new QB may not even be as good as the one he is supposed to replace.
The GM and coach must make good decisions as to what is best for the team. In my opinion, if you already have a QB who has led his team to a 7-2 record, imagine how even more successful he could be if you protect him better and add better talent at WR and/or other positions of weakness. Drafting a new QB delays improving the other positions. That then requires adding talent through FA, which we all know is expensive and is no guarantee. Not all good players thrive in a different environment and system.
Your looking at option 2 in a very narrow way.
Really it's more than 2 options.
IF you have the opportunity to move up and get a truly elite franchise QB (you never know), then you do it. You absolutely should trade nearly whatever it takes to get him. The guy I most project at this early date to be a superstar QB in the NFL is Hendon Hooker.
There's a long process to go, however, and people seem to be all over the map on where Hooker will go in the draft. Stroud and Young seem to be ahead of him. I would love for that scenario to be the case on draft day.
Beane manipulated the draft in 2018 in a masterclass fashion, with Schoen having a front-row seat (and perhaps plenty of involvement in getting the deals done).
Before the draft, he moved up from the 21st spot to 12 by trading Cordy Glenn, the 21st pick, and a 5th rounder to the Bengals.
They traded Tyrod Taylor to the Browns for a third round pick.
Then they traded with the Buccaneers to move up to the 7th pick from 12 (and a 7th rounder) by sending the Bucs #12 and two 2nd round picks, where they took Josh Allen.
So many things are possible in the draft, it doesn't need to be distilled down to we have to trade away the next two years' worth of premium picks plus to move up from the 20's to #1 overall.
And we have the benefit of a GM who has a creative background when it comes to approaching the draft.
Further, Tyrod Taylor or another QB can be a bridge and still win NFL games while a rookie redshirts.
Or DJ could be a bridge. Or you can roll with DJ for awhile and see if you can build a championship-caliber team around him and do it that way. But at any rate, even if it's not with a first round pick, you have to get another young QB in here with a live arm.
It is still up in the air as to what he would be like after getting them. He still hasn't been fairly evaluated. Some may believe he's never going to be THE guy. Some believe he could be THE guy. Nobody knows for sure until you give him what every QB needs.
Certainly, the Giants will do their due diligence in evaluating the QBs in the draft or free agency to see if there is someone who can improve the team. They do this daily. But as I said before, they have to weigh all the factors and costs involved in order to do the right thing that is best for the team.
I'm not buying stock on Hurts Inc either, but I think he's closer to getting a deal with Philly than Jones is with NYG.
If Hurts gets to at least the NFCC game, and he's a key reason why, I think a deal is probably close to 100%.
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If the Saints pick gives them a chance to get in a position for stroud or Young I think they do it
I'm not buying stock on Hurts Inc either, but I think he's closer to getting a deal with Philly than Jones is with NYG.
If Hurts gets to at least the NFCC game, and he's a key reason why, I think a deal is probably close to 100%.
Agreed
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Those who think otherwise don't know what they're watching.
They are scouting everyone. That’s their effing job. And they could realistically lose Jones now even if they want him back-so they damn well better. You’re saying the sky is blue. Congrats.
This was a response to the OP stating that the sky was purple. If you've been on this site for any amount of time you would understand why that is necessary.
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That people think the coaches, GM and players care more about advanced passing stats than wins. It is really a foolish take and the motivation for it considering the context of the last few years of posting from certain members, it is obvious why.
That's not at all what we are saying, and I think you know it.
I believe will be 9 and in 2 weeks. I think we will go on to SWEEP Philly.
Yes, sweep.
Speculation, sure.
Have you considered that posiblity at all?
Why?
Bias.
This team is built to win in the weather.
They have PROVEN they have the discipline to win ugly.
Leave room in your opinion to be wrong.
different offenses, different personnel, different game plans.
Come on, you are better than this, I think.
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In comment 15906982 Thegratefulhead said:
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That people think the coaches, GM and players care more about advanced passing stats than wins. It is really a foolish take and the motivation for it considering the context of the last few years of posting from certain members, it is obvious why.
That's not at all what we are saying, and I think you know it.
Fair, I do, my post isn't entirely fair, but the smart people that post here are not being fair either. Throwing a little back at you all. You don't get to 7 and without solid QB play. He has 2 ints. His pocket presence is objectively improved.
I believe will be 9 and in 2 weeks. I think we will go on to SWEEP Philly.
Yes, sweep.
Speculation, sure.
Have you considered that posiblity at all?
Why?
Bias.
This team is built to win in the weather.
They have PROVEN they have the discipline to win ugly.
Leave room in your opinion to be wrong.
I always leave room for my opinion to be wrong. I don't care if I'm wrong. I want the Giants to be contenders for multiple SB titles. I am enjoying the season and the wins, but I think we're a paper tiger that will get summarily squashed in the playoffs.
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Jalen Hurts has become and objectively better passing QB than Daniel Jones and he will get a deal from Philly. He is far ahead of Jones in yds/game, Y/A, Y/C, TD%.
different offenses, different personnel, different game plans.
Come on, you are better than this, I think.
And I would add, I am completely surprised by Hurts' development as a passer. I never thought it would happen.
And I would add, I am completely surprised by Hurts' development as a passer. I never thought it would happen.
Theres no doubt Hurts has improved, but he has great weapons and a great OL. Those things matter greatly.
For many this site provides a source for self-worth. They call out others when anything supports that they are right, or hide or exaggerate when things prove they may be wrong. It's sad.
The one thing these folks won't ever do is change their opinion based on additional facts. That's why the "one view" posters on this site are the ones to mainly ignore. You are talking to people working on faith not facts.
He’s a better runner without a doubt but I think it’s debatable how big the margin between the two is when it comes to passing ability.
Conceded.
If Jones sweeps him, with the comparative rosters, I would give the edge to Jones at that point.
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Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
Well he is running an offense that is leading us to wins, so yes with the team he has - I think he is quite happy.
He'll be happier with a new QB next year. I have no idea what exactly goes into QBR but it must just be short completions and turnovers. Sure can't be passing yards, passing TDs, air yards, YPA, team passing, team scoring....
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Jalen Hurts has become and objectively better passing QB than Daniel Jones and he will get a deal from Philly. He is far ahead of Jones in yds/game, Y/A, Y/C, TD%.
We get to play the games. Let's see how they do head to head. Hurts is objectably having the better year.
Conceded.
If Jones sweeps him, with the comparative rosters, I would give the edge to Jones at that point.
QBs to play head-to-head. QBs play against defenses. Which team wins doesn't tell you anything about which QB is better. It tells you which team played better.
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And I would add, I am completely surprised by Hurts' development as a passer. I never thought it would happen.
Theres no doubt Hurts has improved, but he has great weapons and a great OL. Those things matter greatly.
Of course they do. Nobody claims they don't matter. But Hurts' tape is impressive. He's making difficult throws beyond the hashes into tight windows with regularity. I don't know what to say about his progression. It's probably not as good as Allen's year 3 progression, but it is stunning nonetheless. Maybe he falls off, rest of season. But he doesn't look like a fluke. And if he continues to win and put up impressive numbers, he'll get some kind of juicy extension.
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In comment 15907082 Producer said:
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In comment 15906982 Thegratefulhead said:
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That people think the coaches, GM and players care more about advanced passing stats than wins. It is really a foolish take and the motivation for it considering the context of the last few years of posting from certain members, it is obvious why.
That's not at all what we are saying, and I think you know it.
Fair, I do, my post isn't entirely fair, but the smart people that post here are not being fair either. Throwing a little back at you all. You don't get to 7 and without solid QB play. He has 2 ints. His pocket presence is objectively improved.
I believe will be 9 and in 2 weeks. I think we will go on to SWEEP Philly.
Yes, sweep.
Speculation, sure.
Have you considered that posiblity at all?
Why?
Bias.
This team is built to win in the weather.
They have PROVEN they have the discipline to win ugly.
Leave room in your opinion to be wrong.
I always leave room for my opinion to be wrong. I don't care if I'm wrong. I want the Giants to be contenders for multiple SB titles. I am enjoying the season and the wins, but I think we're a paper tiger that will get summarily squashed in the playoffs.
Am not sold on the belief that Jones cannot win in the post season.
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In comment 15907112 Producer said:
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Jalen Hurts has become and objectively better passing QB than Daniel Jones and he will get a deal from Philly. He is far ahead of Jones in yds/game, Y/A, Y/C, TD%.
We get to play the games. Let's see how they do head to head. Hurts is objectably having the better year.
Conceded.
If Jones sweeps him, with the comparative rosters, I would give the edge to Jones at that point.
QBs to play head-to-head. QBs play against defenses. Which team wins doesn't tell you anything about which QB is better. It tells you which team played better.
Every article written would say so so out-dueled so and so. Has been that way forever.
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In comment 15906909 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15906901 Producer said:
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1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
My "brain box" really thinks Daboll wants to win, and when looking at our lousy WRs, our poor pass protection of the IOL, Barkley, and our mobile QB, this is the best way to do it. Why would you throw it 35-40 times with our WRs on the receiving end, and limit Barkley's touches?
Can't your "brain box" understand that this may not be Jones specific, like your heavily biased opinion says, and may be a decision made by looking at the big picture?
The "poor pass protection" argument went out the window when the stsrs were posted showing DJ takes the longest to throw the ball of any QB in the NFL. You can't have shitty protection and take the longest to get the ball out.
Both of DJs TDs yesterday traveled a TOTAL of 4 yards (3 and 1)...the receivers ran a total of 62 yards on those TDs. So, 4 air yards, 62 YAC...but the receivers suck?
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In comment 15907134 Thegratefulhead said:
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In comment 15907112 Producer said:
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Jalen Hurts has become and objectively better passing QB than Daniel Jones and he will get a deal from Philly. He is far ahead of Jones in yds/game, Y/A, Y/C, TD%.
We get to play the games. Let's see how they do head to head. Hurts is objectably having the better year.
Conceded.
If Jones sweeps him, with the comparative rosters, I would give the edge to Jones at that point.
QBs to play head-to-head. QBs play against defenses. Which team wins doesn't tell you anything about which QB is better. It tells you which team played better.
No. Let's say the teams play evenly until the last 2 minutes. One guy has a big turnover, the other makes the big throws that win.
Every article written would say so so out-dueled so and so. Has been that way forever.
You understand there is a reason why articles written to entertain would say one "out duelled" the other when in fact the game was not decided by only the QBs, right?
If you want to argue that QBs win and lose games, and give Jones credit for winning games this year, then he has to take the blame for the team's record the last three years also. You can't say all wins are Jones' and all losses are because the rest of the team sucks.
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In comment 15906914 Producer said:
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In comment 15906909 PatersonPlank said:
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In comment 15906901 Producer said:
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1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
My "brain box" really thinks Daboll wants to win, and when looking at our lousy WRs, our poor pass protection of the IOL, Barkley, and our mobile QB, this is the best way to do it. Why would you throw it 35-40 times with our WRs on the receiving end, and limit Barkley's touches?
Can't your "brain box" understand that this may not be Jones specific, like your heavily biased opinion says, and may be a decision made by looking at the big picture?
The "poor pass protection" argument went out the window when the stsrs were posted showing DJ takes the longest to throw the ball of any QB in the NFL. You can't have shitty protection and take the longest to get the ball out.
Both of DJs TDs yesterday traveled a TOTAL of 4 yards (3 and 1)...the receivers ran a total of 62 yards on those TDs. So, 4 air yards, 62 YAC...but the receivers suck?
Seriously, do you even watch the games or just look at the box score?
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In comment 15906925 PatersonPlank said:
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1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
My "brain box" really thinks Daboll wants to win, and when looking at our lousy WRs, our poor pass protection of the IOL, Barkley, and our mobile QB, this is the best way to do it. Why would you throw it 35-40 times with our WRs on the receiving end, and limit Barkley's touches?
Can't your "brain box" understand that this may not be Jones specific, like your heavily biased opinion says, and may be a decision made by looking at the big picture?
The "poor pass protection" argument went out the window when the stsrs were posted showing DJ takes the longest to throw the ball of any QB in the NFL. You can't have shitty protection and take the longest to get the ball out.
Both of DJs TDs yesterday traveled a TOTAL of 4 yards (3 and 1)...the receivers ran a total of 62 yards on those TDs. So, 4 air yards, 62 YAC...but the receivers suck?
Seriously, do you even watch the games or just look at the box score?
Watched every second. I know...stats aren't important. Much better to trust feelings, emotions, and your gut...right?
The "poor pass protection" argument went out the window when the stsrs were posted showing DJ takes the longest to throw the ball of any QB in the NFL. You can't have shitty protection and take the longest to get the ball out.
oh really? Pure 100% bullshit. You do know that QBs may have to extend plays due to the fact WRs cant get open so they either roll out or buy more time which will extend their time to throw.
You're narrative is old and stale with very little context. Try better.
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1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
My "brain box" really thinks Daboll wants to win, and when looking at our lousy WRs, our poor pass protection of the IOL, Barkley, and our mobile QB, this is the best way to do it. Why would you throw it 35-40 times with our WRs on the receiving end, and limit Barkley's touches?
Can't your "brain box" understand that this may not be Jones specific, like your heavily biased opinion says, and may be a decision made by looking at the big picture?
The "poor pass protection" argument went out the window when the stsrs were posted showing DJ takes the longest to throw the ball of any QB in the NFL. You can't have shitty protection and take the longest to get the ball out.
Both of DJs TDs yesterday traveled a TOTAL of 4 yards (3 and 1)...the receivers ran a total of 62 yards on those TDs. So, 4 air yards, 62 YAC...but the receivers suck?
Seriously, do you even watch the games or just look at the box score?
Watched every second. I know...stats aren't important. Much better to trust feelings, emotions, and your gut...right?
Sigh, I can't believe I'm going to answer this:
The first TD pass was a goal to go situation, where the TE ran it about 3 yards into the endzone. What is wrong with that?
The 2nd TD pass, to Slayton, was what some on BBI are calling Jones best play of the season. He avoided the rush and threw to Slayton fading away from the defenders. Yes Slayton did a good job, but also Jones did too. I find it weird you pick this play to use to criticize Jones.
On the "time to throw" crap stat, if you notice all the QB's with the longest times to throw are mobile/running QB's. The reason is that they are buying time, not that their OL is neessarily great. I think Fields was near the top too. In Jones case the Giants are using a lot of rollout pockets to buy Jones time. Of course when you are rolling him out a lot he will use more time to throw, he has to by design.
You are using stats you don't understand to support points that you push forward your personal agenda.
Frankly I'm not sold on Jones. This is not the offense I'd like to have, and if its all that Jones can do then we should move on. A lot of likely cheaper options can do the same if this is indeed all he can do. However I don't think any of us know that yet, and I get tired of all the "QB whisperers" here who believe they know for a fact what the answer is. I'll leave it up Daboll/Kafka, not you.
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In comment 15907143 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 15907134 Thegratefulhead said:
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In comment 15907112 Producer said:
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Jalen Hurts has become and objectively better passing QB than Daniel Jones and he will get a deal from Philly. He is far ahead of Jones in yds/game, Y/A, Y/C, TD%.
We get to play the games. Let's see how they do head to head. Hurts is objectably having the better year.
Conceded.
If Jones sweeps him, with the comparative rosters, I would give the edge to Jones at that point.
QBs to play head-to-head. QBs play against defenses. Which team wins doesn't tell you anything about which QB is better. It tells you which team played better.
No. Let's say the teams play evenly until the last 2 minutes. One guy has a big turnover, the other makes the big throws that win.
Every article written would say so so out-dueled so and so. Has been that way forever.
You understand there is a reason why articles written to entertain would say one "out duelled" the other when in fact the game was not decided by only the QBs, right?
If you want to argue that QBs win and lose games, and give Jones credit for winning games this year, then he has to take the blame for the team's record the last three years also. You can't say all wins are Jones' and all losses are because the rest of the team sucks.
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1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
If we throw it 17 times, or 25 times, we aren't going to throw it for 350 yds per game. Its just math. This list speaks to the offense we are running, not Jones if that is the point here.
Do you really think Brian Daboll prefers to run an offense that is near the bottom of the league in passing production? Use your brain box. The team he just came from, the offense he just engineered, where are they ranked?
My "brain box" really thinks Daboll wants to win, and when looking at our lousy WRs, our poor pass protection of the IOL, Barkley, and our mobile QB, this is the best way to do it. Why would you throw it 35-40 times with our WRs on the receiving end, and limit Barkley's touches?
Can't your "brain box" understand that this may not be Jones specific, like your heavily biased opinion says, and may be a decision made by looking at the big picture?
The "poor pass protection" argument went out the window when the stsrs were posted showing DJ takes the longest to throw the ball of any QB in the NFL. You can't have shitty protection and take the longest to get the ball out.
Both of DJs TDs yesterday traveled a TOTAL of 4 yards (3 and 1)...the receivers ran a total of 62 yards on those TDs. So, 4 air yards, 62 YAC...but the receivers suck?
Seriously, do you even watch the games or just look at the box score?
Watched every second. I know...stats aren't important. Much better to trust feelings, emotions, and your gut...right?
Sigh, I can't believe I'm going to answer this:
The first TD pass was a goal to go situation, where the TE ran it about 3 yards into the endzone. What is wrong with that?
The 2nd TD pass, to Slayton, was what some on BBI are calling Jones best play of the season. He avoided the rush and threw to Slayton fading away from the defenders. Yes Slayton did a good job, but also Jones did too. I find it weird you pick this play to use to criticize Jones.
On the "time to throw" crap stat, if you notice all the QB's with the longest times to throw are mobile/running QB's. The reason is that they are buying time, not that their OL is neessarily great. I think Fields was near the top too. In Jones case the Giants are using a lot of rollout pockets to buy Jones time. Of course when you are rolling him out a lot he will use more time to throw, he has to by design.
You are using stats you don't understand to support points that you push forward your personal agenda.
Frankly I'm not sold on Jones. This is not the offense I'd like to have, and if its all that Jones can do then we should move on. A lot of likely cheaper options can do the same if this is indeed all he can do. However I don't think any of us know that yet, and I get tired of all the "QB whisperers" here who believe they know for a fact what the answer is. I'll leave it up Daboll/Kafka, not you.
You're acting like DJ moves around in the pocket like Rodgers or Mahomes...he doesn't. The rollouts were part of the gameplan for 2-3 weeks.
Stats I don't understand? WTF? DJ throws a 1 yard pass, the TE runs 8 yards for a TD, and the fanboys want to act like Jones is Mahomes. He backpedals (stuff every NFL QB does), throws a 3 yard pass, and ends up with a 54 yard TD pass in the box score. Then, the fanboys want to talk about how great DJ is because he has no WRs. He threw the ball 4 total yards for 2 TDs...give him $30 million!
Of course the fanboys are calling the Slayton TD Jones' best play...he throws so few TDs, there's not much to trump it. Every TD DJ throws (all 8 in 9 games) are just impossible plays that very few could complete, right? Go with your gut!
Are you saying you want Jones to fail and not root for him? Seems like a very odd thing to say as a Giants fan.
Are you saying you want Jones to fail and not root for him? Seems like a very odd thing to say as a Giants fan.
Definitely odd. Check out the game thread. there's an 45 minute long argument about whether the first pass to Golladay was a "drop" or not.
Are you saying you want Jones to fail and not root for him? Seems like a very odd thing to say as a Giants fan.
I'm on record...I hope the Giants move on from Jones this offseason. However, I'm rooting for the guy (and team) every week and have for 40ish years.
The "fanboys" are the fans that need DJ to be good, so they'll look past stats and make points based on silliness. They want to act like DJ isn't a dink and dunk game manager...except that DJ is 40th this year in air yards per attempt. They want to give DJ credit for all the wins...the Giants are 29th in passing offense and DJ has 8 passing TDs in 9 games. He throws a 3 yard pass and Slayton runs 51 yards for a TD...and it's a great play by Jones because he backpedaled? Stop! Just stop!
I like DJ..but he's not a franchise QB and he's definitely not worth $30+ million per year. He's tough, he's likeable...but he's a game manager.
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In comment 15907063 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15906982 Thegratefulhead said:
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That people think the coaches, GM and players care more about advanced passing stats than wins. It is really a foolish take and the motivation for it considering the context of the last few years of posting from certain members, it is obvious why.
I find it hysterical that fans think coaches and GMs simplify their QB evaluation to the point where team wins are even remotely close to the most important factor for any individual player.
It's fine if fans want to take such a simplistic approach to say that they don't want to fix what appears to be unbroken, but the coaches and front office executives are privy to what factors they're handcuffing themselves with in order to keep that scenario unbroken in the first place.
The short version is that I feel very confident in saying that the team's W/L record may help DJ's cause in his contract negotiations but will be far from the top factor the team considers when they are faced with a long view of their future at the QB position, especially when they are winning in a way that asks relatively little of the QB, compared to the offensive schemes with which our offensive coaches share their pedigree (Buffalo and Kansas City, most notably).
I feel confident that by far, the most meaningful stat to all of ownership, management and players is wins. So we disagree on a profound level on this topic. Not a lot reason for us to unpack it.
Fair enough. Let me know how you think they should valuate DJ for his next contract with the approach you have in mind.
He already beat Rodgers H2H, so if the Giants also finish the season with more wins than Green Bay, is it safe to say you'd endorse $50M+ AAV for DJ since he'd have better numbers in your only valuable metric?
IF...
IF, he doesn't get injured and finishes the year strong. The rest of the games matter too. I want the entire body of work in 2022 to make a decision. It is looking good so far though.
I would site past poor play and injuries to get a better deal. Negotiating NFL contracts is big boy business.
Rushing (RBs/QB) - way above average
OL - MUCH, MUCH better at run blocking than pass blocking
And they play/will play in cold weather
Why is it so hard to understand that the game plan should revolve around running the ball? I don’t understand why people can’t comprehend that. Stop comparing this team to other NFL teams and using the words “not sustainable.” They are 7-2. Obviously it is.
Jones will never throw for 300+ yards and 3 TDs when he has 20 passing attempts per game. It’s just not going to happen. No QB would. Brady, who leads the league, has almost double the attempts that Jones has.
Meanwhile, he is doing everything necessary to win games for the giants.
I’ll never understand the people on here.
The same fucking experts here that nitpicked and booed Phil Simms....yea THAT QB. That same QB who now doesn't have to buy a drink in this town because he's so beloved. HE wasn't always beloved. But many fans are dumb.
Exhausting.
Daniel Jones is playing well. Get that? Thanks.
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WRs - well below average
Rushing (RBs/QB) - way above average
OL - MUCH, MUCH better at run blocking than pass blocking
And they play/will play in cold weather
Why is it so hard to understand that the game plan should revolve around running the ball? I don’t understand why people can’t comprehend that. Stop comparing this team to other NFL teams and using the words “not sustainable.” They are 7-2. Obviously it is.
Jones will never throw for 300+ yards and 3 TDs when he has 20 passing attempts per game. It’s just not going to happen. No QB would. Brady, who leads the league, has almost double the attempts that Jones has.
Meanwhile, he is doing everything necessary to win games for the giants.
I’ll never understand the people on here.
The same fucking experts here that nitpicked and booed Phil Simms....yea THAT QB. That same QB who now doesn't have to buy a drink in this town because he's so beloved. HE wasn't always beloved. But many fans are dumb.
Exhausting.
Daniel Jones is playing well. Get that? Thanks.
Do you truly and honestly think the GIants are a better team right now if Cousins is here instead of Daniel Jones?
Really think that one through. Take your time. Envision Cousins here throwing to Crosby, Stills and Nash and it's 3rd and 8--4th quarter, and the pocket collapses while those WRs aren't getting open...what does Cousins do that DJ hasn't been able to do?
We aren't better with Cousins. I'd bet my life on it and I have always defended Cousins this year and the last 4-5 years. HE's a solid to very solid QB. Maybe even better than that. He's in the same system now and has an insanely good arsenal of talent. Gee, you think Cousins wouldn't be the same player here that he is in Minny right now? Cmon already.
Tell me, what's the # that gives you all the warm and fuzzies, even if it's a BS number that doesn't mean fuck all. And i'd love to know why you'd dump the guy over 1-2 statistical "failures"--it better be worth it. If you NEED 28 total tds and Jones only comes up with 25--um, you're really going to bitch and moan every day when he's signed and "overpaid" here? BEcause of a few TD passes that never happened?
Every metric says he's playing well. Even his FF stats are above average. But he's not doing enough I guess....because you can't win in this league without an insanely good passing game. Maybe we need WRs. And maybe we are winning anyway.
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On the idea he might be better than Cousins with better receivers. That’s the point being made by many.
Do you truly and honestly think the GIants are a better team right now if Cousins is here instead of Daniel Jones?
Really think that one through. Take your time. Envision Cousins here throwing to Crosby, Stills and Nash and it's 3rd and 8--4th quarter, and the pocket collapses while those WRs aren't getting open...what does Cousins do that DJ hasn't been able to do?
We aren't better with Cousins. I'd bet my life on it and I have always defended Cousins this year and the last 4-5 years. HE's a solid to very solid QB. Maybe even better than that. He's in the same system now and has an insanely good arsenal of talent. Gee, you think Cousins wouldn't be the same player here that he is in Minny right now? Cmon already.
I’d like you to point out where in that statement it says the Giants would be better off with Kirk Cousins.
We KNOW he's accurate. We KNOW he can throw TDs. We KNOW he can run. Can he keep running ala Lamar Jackson (poor man version) and stay on the field?
PS We also KNOW the WR are well below avg. Slayton is a nice comeback story. He's upgradeable. Robinson nice looking rookie. The rest are replacement level. That means the position is in dire need of upgrades at 2-3 spots. Do you think DJ's numbers might look better with someone like Amari Coooper (prime) as his #1? Cmon.
Can he keep running and stay healthy and will he play well in December. That's what we're looking for and i'd bet thats what Schoen and Daboll are looking for.
You're pulling shit out of your ass dude.
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Basically, the Giants are using him like the Titans have used Tannehill. Protect the ball, be efficient, hand off to a great RB.
At this point, I trust the guys running this team to decide if he's got another level they can get to with better players around him. If they bring him back, it's because they believe in them and who would I be to argue?
I wouldn't be afraid to move on from him either. You don't want your team's ceiling to be held back by the QB and if they decide he would be doing that, it's best to move on.
Either way, I'm enjoying how he's playing this year. He's been smart, tough and dependable and is one reason this team is winning games.
I think this is a great post, and I agree with putting faith in whichever way JS & BD decide to go at QB.
As do I. I think DJ has more skills than Tannehill but the point is fair.
What I can't accept is people saying the Giants are dumbing down the O because of Jones or Jones can't look off WRs or read a defense. Not sure where that take came from, oh wait, it came from here. Made up, but echo chamber does its thing.
Watch the games and rewind plays again and tell me DJ doesn't pass to the 2nd or 3rd read at times. Please do this.
The Giants will do what's best for the team. Don't be shocked if DJ is under center this time next year.
This isn't 2020 anymore.
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In comment 15906498 JonC said:
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Those who think otherwise don't know what they're watching.
They are scouting everyone. That’s their effing job. And they could realistically lose Jones now even if they want him back-so they damn well better. You’re saying the sky is blue. Congrats.
I'm saying believing Jones is the QB to lead NYG to SB wins will be proven off-target. I'm not remotely afraid to lose or replace Jones.
Talking out of your ass, with authority.
Last in the league in INT’s thrown (amazing stat)
22nd in yards
24th in passing TD’s
I’d love to get those last 2 stats into the 11-15 ranked range.
Right now he’s on track for 3000 yards passing and 13 TD passes.
I really wish some of you can see how useless it is. It isn't "discussing football" as one of that group likes to brag about - it is just rehashing the same old shit for n end goal at all.
We'll hopefully be 8-2 and some of you schmucks will rinse and repeat and create several hundred posts a week about Jones again.
What a time suck that must be. But keep telling yourselves that you are "discussing football".
Why is it so difficult to understand they want to see him play the whole season - including a playoff game - before they decide on compensation?
What a time suck that must be. But keep telling yourselves that you are "discussing football".
Sorry we upset you by discussing the potential contract of a player that plays for the Giants. Next time we’ll choose a topic that is acceptable to our overlord.
I really wish some of you can see how useless it is. It isn't "discussing football" as one of that group likes to brag about - it is just rehashing the same old shit for n end goal at all.
We'll hopefully be 8-2 and some of you schmucks will rinse and repeat and create several hundred posts a week about Jones again.
What a time suck that must be. But keep telling yourselves that you are "discussing football".
They’ve dug a hole so big - they’ll never get out of it - so they keep repeating the same thing over and over and over again.
I really wish some of you can see how useless it is. It isn't "discussing football" as one of that group likes to brag about - it is just rehashing the same old shit for n end goal at all.
We'll hopefully be 8-2 and some of you schmucks will rinse and repeat and create several hundred posts a week about Jones again.
What a time suck that must be. But keep telling yourselves that you are "discussing football".
This season has been unexpected and magnificent. I have not wasted a single moment worrying that if Jones plays well and the team wins many games, he gets another contract.
That Kirk Cousins contract isn't looking so bad for the Vikings today...
It is just a terrible take on the season, I feel bad for people.
From all accounts it looks like Schoen did not approach Jones about an extension during the bye, but he did for Barkley and Love.
This will continue to be debated until there is a resolution. He’s a free agent at the end of the season.
I remember when we needed to lose this year because it was clear that Tyrod was signed to be the "bridge" before we get "our QB" that Daboll and Schoen really love. When that didn't happen, the talk all year continued about scouting QBs because "we don't really know what Daboll and Schoen want, and they likely don't want Jones based on what they've shown us so far."
Then Schoen had like 4 interviews with various media outlets and talked positively about Jones being a core player. Funny how nobody mentioned that on this message board. Sort of slipped through the cracks I guess.
7-2. Enjoy it.
Nope, wrong again. Plenty are. There are posters here who have said repeatedly that as long as Jones is the quarterback the Giants are stuck in neutral. Those posters have said repeatedly that they want another option, but the problem is that the Giants keep winning with Jones as the QB, so it makes them look like complete idiots and the goalposts continue to change week after week.
Nope, wrong again, I'm enjoying the hell out of the Giants as I always do.
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The Giants are winning. That’s a fantasy in your guys heads.
Nope, wrong again. Plenty are. There are posters here who have said repeatedly that as long as Jones is the quarterback the Giants are stuck in neutral. Those posters have said repeatedly that they want another option, but the problem is that the Giants keep winning with Jones as the QB, so it makes them look like complete idiots and the goalposts continue to change week after week.
This doesn’t mean that they are mad the Giants are winning, multiple things are allowed to be true at the same time. You’re so entrenched in some revenge tour for all the times you were wrong you get riled up about fantasies you’ve created. It’s weird.
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
This is a chest pounding I told you so thread. Polluting it with facts and reality that refute the hyperbole will likely not go over well...
The winning percentage over the last decade when passing for under 200 yards is 46%. It actually does matter. Right now the Giants are defying the norm.
I really wish some of you can see how useless it is. It isn't "discussing football" as one of that group likes to brag about - it is just rehashing the same old shit for n end goal at all.
We'll hopefully be 8-2 and some of you schmucks will rinse and repeat and create several hundred posts a week about Jones again.
What a time suck that must be. But keep telling yourselves that you are "discussing football".
Is it irrelevant to discuss the potential contract value of an impending free agent?
I seem to remember you participating in quite a few of those conversations when it was Leonard Williams - why is it different to discuss the exact same topic when it's regarding Daniel Jones?
A simpleton might assume that it's because the current NFL QB market doesn't leave a lot of room to make a favorable case for DJ without also endorsing a very expensive contract.
And just a smidge beyond that simpleton's assumption, one might naively assume that the nuance of whether to use the franchise tag on Barkley and how it impacts DJ's contract negotiations (or vice versa) would require discussing how to keep both and at what contract value one of those two will get full price market rates and for how long.
Leave those hypothetical dummies out of the discussion. I think you just don't want to put your name on a number because barking down the entire discussion itself is an easier way to avoid being wrong.
With each and every thought you post, I agree with you on this.
Last in the league in INT’s thrown (amazing stat)
22nd in yards
24th in passing TD’s
I’d love to get those last 2 stats into the 11-15 ranked range.
Right now he’s on track for 3000 yards passing and 13 TD passes.
This is strictly my opinion, but I think that Daboll/Kafka's approach suggests that they're at least somewhat concerned that if they try to press on the accelerator for those second two stats too aggressively, they'd end up applying a more significantly negative impact to the first two stats.
Not necessarily a reflection on DJ when I say that, either. Simply an observation of the offense at large.
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1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
This is a chest pounding I told you so thread. Polluting it with facts and reality that refute the hyperbole will likely not go over well...
No it’s just a poster reminding everyone that he think Jones is terrible and will come up with any way to do so.
It’s a shame we have posters that need to remind everyone of their narrative after every win.
Agreed, he’s had a solid season but also not the type of season you pony up $30 million for. I’m not sure why it’s so offensive to have that opinion on this board.
I really wish some of you can see how useless it is. It isn't "discussing football" as one of that group likes to brag about - it is just rehashing the same old shit for n end goal at all.
We'll hopefully be 8-2 and some of you schmucks will rinse and repeat and create several hundred posts a week about Jones again.
What a time suck that must be. But keep telling yourselves that you are "discussing football".
Just a reminder. Jones plays QB, not safety, linebacker, or full back. And he's played the position quite poorly for most of his four years. So, in this crucial fourth year where Jones is playing for his football career, it seems absolutely essential to talk about Jones's weekly performance, and if he's going to be the solution going forward.
Reminder: if you don't like what is being discussed you are under no obligation to read it or respond to it.
Most of them are having a hard time with him playing well. To be sure they're still rooting for the team and even for Jones, but they're not terribly thrilled that the team is doing well with Jones.
I don't believe that the coaching staff has made up their mind.
I do believe that they are in a better position from a skill standpoint to nknowmore than those posting here... Some of you may disagree.
I have no idea how much money should be spent on a quarterback that an NFL coaching staff believes is the future...
Sometimes your posts get tangled up in logical problems - this one is an example of that, IMO.
Your argument on what part of the offense is being schemed around is simply a matter of perception. The tactics that a HC/OC might employ to safeguard against mediocre receivers or a makeshift OL can often look exactly the same as the tactics that a HC/OC might employ to implement guardrails on a QB to limit exposure to mistakes. That's what makes it just as difficult to make the claim that it's absolutely about DJ as it is to make the claim that it's absolutely NOT about DJ. You don't know that BD/MK aren't putting guardrails on the offense because of DJ, and no one else should claim in absolute fashion that they are.
The only thing we can observe with certainty is that there are obvious limiters being applied to the passing game - that's the what/where/how/when of it all, and those questions are answered objectively. Why is the subjective question that we lack the facts to answer with certainty. And because of that, we also can't objectively answer the "who" portion of the question in general.
As for the last part of your post, it's just logically irrelevant. Just generally speaking, if someone thinks that DJ is an essential asset, they're already in favor of keeping him (thus, they wouldn't be wishing for him to sign elsewhere in the first place); if someone thinks that DJ is a liability, they're not going to be scared of him ending up with a division rival.
More specifically though, is there anyone who you realistically think is on the fence about DJ, could kind of be fine with him signing elsewhere but then all of a sudden your little nugget about Washington potentially being where he ends up somehow convinces them to change their sentiment on DJ entirely? Or did you just want to drop a little asshat seed to pat yourself on the back with in case DJ ends up signing with the Commanders?
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Jones has layed well in several of the wins and yet some here are going to spend the majority of the week posting about inane Jones shit.
I really wish some of you can see how useless it is. It isn't "discussing football" as one of that group likes to brag about - it is just rehashing the same old shit for n end goal at all.
We'll hopefully be 8-2 and some of you schmucks will rinse and repeat and create several hundred posts a week about Jones again.
What a time suck that must be. But keep telling yourselves that you are "discussing football".
They’ve dug a hole so big - they’ll never get out of it - so they keep repeating the same thing over and over and over again.
You may want to throw a rope ladder to FMIC to help him get out of the deep hole he dug supporting Gettleman day after day, week after week, month after month for four years.
Most of them are having a hard time with him playing well. To be sure they're still rooting for the team and even for Jones, but they're not terribly thrilled that the team is doing well with Jones.
I don't believe that. I think many of us are curious how this offense is actually working and Jones's role in that.
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the coaching staff doesn't trust Jones. They never go for it at the end of the half and they run an extremely conservative offense. Now part of that is definitely the WR's and OL, but part of it is also because they don't trust Jones.
You're pulling shit out of your ass dude.
That was uncalled for on my part. I didn’t need to bring your ass or anyone else’s ass into this.
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8th in QBR
Last in the league in INT’s thrown (amazing stat)
22nd in yards
24th in passing TD’s
I’d love to get those last 2 stats into the 11-15 ranked range.
Right now he’s on track for 3000 yards passing and 13 TD passes.
This is strictly my opinion, but I think that Daboll/Kafka's approach suggests that they're at least somewhat concerned that if they try to press on the accelerator for those second two stats too aggressively, they'd end up applying a more significantly negative impact to the first two stats.
Not necessarily a reflection on DJ when I say that, either. Simply an observation of the offense at large.
Not sure what you are saying here, and I normally agree with everything you post. It is a reflection on Jones. That's the whole game. Jones cut turnovers by scaling down and playing conservatively. He has never scaled back up. Daboll is using the scaled down Jones to max effect. If Jones can scale up tomorrow and be a 4500 yard 35TD 8INT guy, let's do it. If he demonstrates he is capable of that level of performance I'll become a big advocate. But he hasn't, because he can't.
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1 Kansas City 313.9
2 Buffalo 294.2
3 Miami 293.8
4 Tampa Bay 269.8
5 LA Chargers 265.3
6 Cincinnati 263.0
7 Minnesota 248.8
8 Philadelphia 242.3
9 Detroit 241.4
10 New Orleans 237.7
11 San Francisco 236.3
12 Las Vegas 228.6
13 Seattle 227.8
14 Indianapolis 226.4
15 Denver 223.6
16 Green Bay 223.0
17 Jacksonville 222.6
18 Arizona 220.6
19 NY Jets 219.0
20 Cleveland 217.1
21 Washington 215.4
22 LA Rams 214.6
23 New England 202.7
24 Pittsburgh 199.4
24 Houston 199.4
26 Dallas 198.6
27 Baltimore 186.8
28 Carolina 176.2
29 NY Giants 161.0
30 Atlanta 156.8
31 Tennessee 148.2
32 Chicago 128.1 passing yards per game - ( New Window )
This is a chest pounding I told you so thread. Polluting it with facts and reality that refute the hyperbole will likely not go over well...
Ok fine.
Do some here actually believe that Jones and the passing game isn’t capable of more yardage? You’re telling me not only is jones a finished product in this offense, stay with me, but this offense is a finished product? The passing game can’t improve ? Yes it’s kind of not sustainable although one could argue if the running game keeps this up it is, but ok fine it isn’t. That doesn’t mean things can’t improve if and when the wrs and oline improve, and the former likely improves dramatically by next season.
I give up. We argue like fucking morons dealing in absolutes with little to no nuance.
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...
Most of them are having a hard time with him playing well. To be sure they're still rooting for the team and even for Jones, but they're not terribly thrilled that the team is doing well with Jones.
I don't believe that. I think many of us are curious how this offense is actually working and Jones's role in that.
But I find most telling is those that are suggesting that the playbook has been dumbed down for the QB.
In my experience if that was the case there would be more deep routes, not fewer.
More flood concepts slide protections and rollouts.
Clearly the coach is playing to the strengths of the team... In my experience, that's how good coaching works.
In a perfect world we do win with a cost controlled cheap awesome QB. I’ll tell you what doesn’t suck— winning with an expensive qb.
Many here simply cannot be objective when players get paid. Most contracts aren’t as dire or deadly as this place insists. It’s important to be fiscally smart, that doesn’t mean you go full retard and let the qb walk. The skins let cousins walk and I still here fans of that team say it was the right move. Sure it was.
In a perfect world we do win with a cost controlled cheap awesome QB. I’ll tell you what doesn’t suck— winning with an expensive qb.
Many here simply cannot be objective when players get paid. Most contracts aren’t as dire or deadly as this place insists. It’s important to be fiscally smart, that doesn’t mean you go full retard and let the qb walk. The skins let cousins walk and I still here fans of that team say it was the right move. Sure it was.
You're wrong.
People think it will be harder to win if DJ is overpaid because there's a salary cap in the NFL.
If jones is the best qb for the giants going forward he needs to be re-signed. You damn right you fucking pay the guy. You make the best educated decision based on every shred of data and evidence, anecdotal or empirical. We don’t know everything Daboll and Schoen know so I’m fine with trusting them. But my eyes tell me he’s a solid qb with upside and good intangibles.
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Are way overblown and way too involved in any player evaluations around here. People literally think we’re better off sucking next year with a rookie than winning with an “overpaid” Daniel jones. Tell me I’m wrong.
In a perfect world we do win with a cost controlled cheap awesome QB. I’ll tell you what doesn’t suck— winning with an expensive qb.
Many here simply cannot be objective when players get paid. Most contracts aren’t as dire or deadly as this place insists. It’s important to be fiscally smart, that doesn’t mean you go full retard and let the qb walk. The skins let cousins walk and I still here fans of that team say it was the right move. Sure it was.
You're wrong.
People think it will be harder to win if DJ is overpaid because there's a salary cap in the NFL.
I already know that. You and many others would have nothing to talk about if not for the big bad cap. Broken record I say the same shit. You’re better off paying the good player than not. Theres always risk. Risk in doing and risk in not doing. You’re wrong.
The giants aren’t letting jones go because of the god damned cap. They might let him go because they don’t love him. Two different things.
Isn’t that what’s happened here for the last 4 years? And here we are approaching the end of year 4, without a clear picture of what the young QB is and having to make a massive financial decision.
That's what I see.
Plus....you can still draft a QB if you really like one as a prospect.
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The Giants are winning. That’s a fantasy in your guys heads.
Nope, wrong again. Plenty are. There are posters here who have said repeatedly that as long as Jones is the quarterback the Giants are stuck in neutral. Those posters have said repeatedly that they want another option, but the problem is that the Giants keep winning with Jones as the QB, so it makes them look like complete idiots and the goalposts continue to change week after week.
That's the narrative you want to spin. Winning isn't the only measure of a QB, especially when we depend on Saquon and or defense way more than DJ.
Honest question...do you see this team competing for, or winning a SB with this offense? Do you think DJ can put up top 5 to 10 passing stats?
I don't...that's why I want to move on from Jones. Winning is great...but sneaking by below average teams with a 4th place schedule doesn't get us to the ultimate goal.
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Are way overblown and way too involved in any player evaluations around here. People literally think we’re better off sucking next year with a rookie than winning with an “overpaid” Daniel jones. Tell me I’m wrong.
In a perfect world we do win with a cost controlled cheap awesome QB. I’ll tell you what doesn’t suck— winning with an expensive qb.
Many here simply cannot be objective when players get paid. Most contracts aren’t as dire or deadly as this place insists. It’s important to be fiscally smart, that doesn’t mean you go full retard and let the qb walk. The skins let cousins walk and I still here fans of that team say it was the right move. Sure it was.
You're wrong.
People think it will be harder to win if DJ is overpaid because there's a salary cap in the NFL.
We have so much dead weight on this roster, we already playing hamstrung. 17 million dollar dead weight, traded first round WR, still paying a ton of dead money that comes off the books next year. And we are gonna be a playoff team.
This isn't 2020 anymore.
Funny how Jones fans love to quote his QBR, but want to ignore every other stat.
Want to get paid like a franchise QB...look and produce like a franchise QB. He's a game manager right now, nothing more.
You have to be kidding. DJ delivers the ball accurately and has mobility. What do you want? A new guy to complain about?
Agreed!
The giants aren’t letting jones go because of the god damned cap. They might let him go because they don’t love him. Two different things.
I know the risks in re-signing a RB, especially one with injuries in his past. But, I think their best short to medium term option may be a creative way to keep both.
7-2 is great. But, I think if we are being honest, there are a ton of other factors contributing to that record. The coaching staff is #1, in my opinion. Barkley is #2. Jones is somewhere in the mix, but those are the most important.