Giants Have Toughest Remaining Schedule in the NFL

with no QB? 1998. or 1994. Or even 1995. Those teams lost. Why? Because they had a bad QB.

IF DJ wasn't doing his job and playing well, we aren't 7-2. We aren't scoring (granted it's nothing special) 21 PPG. We are closer to 17-18 and closer to 4-5.

You don't get out to 7-2 with no WRs and no QB. Not both.

maybe Jones cannot keep this up. Maybe he's going to turn back into a pumpkin--but you cannot discount what he's done through 9 games. Will it last? I think yes, but that is up for debate. What isn't up for debate is what Jones has done up until now. Sorry, it isn't.

In comment 15911454 joeinpa said:

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In comment 15910754 JonC said: Quote: the rubber finally meets the road for Jones. Do or bye. Lol, Ok

What part do you disagree with?

Or were you just feeling giggly?

7-2 record is excellent and unexpected, and Jones has played a clear role in it. There is tangible improvement in a number of areas. At the same time, there are holes in his game that are not visibly improving. I've beaten that drum in other threads and done it over four seasons. I'm looking for the QB who makes it clear his makeup and skillset make NYG a Super Bowl level team, and warrant the contract and commitment. Big points to keep in mind right now. To that level, he's got plenty of work to do and to demonstrate in games, eg vertical passing attack which he's never really done well, making touch passes or hitting tight passing windows consistently. Plenty of examples over his tenure, and it's not solely because his current WR unit is sub-par. He also needs to beat the Eagles, Cowboys, he's got a Vikes matchup, the Commanders are starting to wake up, and this week the Lions are not going to be an easy game for NYG. Don't be surprised if the Lions win this game, they can move the ball on offense and score points. I'd wager 21 this week won't win for NYG.

I'm not here to rain on anyone's parade. Enjoy it. I am enjoying it too. At the same time, I am an optimizer and a compartmentalizer, and with an eye towards the future I still would wager Jones is not the QB they commit to longterm. YMMV. 80% of this forum doesn't know what they're looking at when watching a football game in terms of analysis or moving parts.

In comment 15911933 djm said:

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In comment 15911866 JonC said: Quote: There's much more Jones needs to do in order for the Giants to step up to contender, and it's stuff he's not really shown in the NFL. I'm not prepared to build around him. 7-2 record is terrific, but it's not the whole story as much as the "we've found our QB" wants to believe it. Bottom line is Jones is doing more than you and many here are crediting him for. Plain and simple. Maybe we didn't "find our QB" but he's a legit PRO QB and will be starting NEXT season, somewhere, and it's probably right here. Bank on it. Again, it was do or die week 1. And He's been fine. I am blown away at the people here who can't envision this offense improving just by adding 2 WRs that are above replacement level. Jones isn't playing in a barren offense, not by any means. HE's got the great running game and he's well coached and voila! He's winning and scoring 21 PPG! That means he's doing his part. You telling me this offense can't score 25+ PPG with 2 good WRS added to the mix, not to mention a year of development from everyone else, including DJ? You really believe that? This O won't improve with better WRs... I don't get it.

That's all reasonable.

Where it falls apart is when it comes to the price tag, and you go into your whole routine of plugging your fingers in your ears and pretending like the salary cap is a figment of your imagination.

Paying DJ $30M+ per year will have an impact on the Giants' ability to go get those WRs that he needs to take the next step (or cause a sacrifice elsewhere on the roster, eventually), and it would still be on spec based on what can be projected for DJ, unless he shows it this year with the receivers that he's got right now.

Sure, it's entirely possible and maybe even probable that he'd take that next step up with better receivers. It's also possible that the next step he takes isn't quite as large as you think, and then you're paying him $30M+ per year to be only slightly better than he is right now, and paying those new receivers for the boost that never quite arrives.

We entered this year with a 1st round WR, a 2nd round WR, a big money FA WR, to go along with a supremely talented RB. There have been significant injuries at WR to go along with at least one headcase at the position to go along with effort/dedication question marks for another, but it's not like the position itself has been neglected. How many more resources go to that position AND still cover a 4x increase in the price of the QB?

Ideally, you'd like to have a little more than hope to go on when you're determining the right contract value for DJ. I think that's Jon's point (or at least that's my interpretation). Giants fans are so beaten down by the past few years of dreadful football that they're willing to fork over a fortune just for the feeling of hope that they'd forgotten for years.

It should take more than hope to make a decision this important for the franchise.

In comment 15912086 Gatorade Dunk said:

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In comment 15911933 djm said: Quote: In comment 15911866 JonC said: Quote: There's much more Jones needs to do in order for the Giants to step up to contender, and it's stuff he's not really shown in the NFL. I'm not prepared to build around him. 7-2 record is terrific, but it's not the whole story as much as the "we've found our QB" wants to believe it. Bottom line is Jones is doing more than you and many here are crediting him for. Plain and simple. Maybe we didn't "find our QB" but he's a legit PRO QB and will be starting NEXT season, somewhere, and it's probably right here. Bank on it. Again, it was do or die week 1. And He's been fine. I am blown away at the people here who can't envision this offense improving just by adding 2 WRs that are above replacement level. Jones isn't playing in a barren offense, not by any means. HE's got the great running game and he's well coached and voila! He's winning and scoring 21 PPG! That means he's doing his part. You telling me this offense can't score 25+ PPG with 2 good WRS added to the mix, not to mention a year of development from everyone else, including DJ? You really believe that? This O won't improve with better WRs... I don't get it. That's all reasonable. Where it falls apart is when it comes to the price tag, and you go into your whole routine of plugging your fingers in your ears and pretending like the salary cap is a figment of your imagination. Paying DJ $30M+ per year will have an impact on the Giants' ability to go get those WRs that he needs to take the next step (or cause a sacrifice elsewhere on the roster, eventually), and it would still be on spec based on what can be projected for DJ, unless he shows it this year with the receivers that he's got right now. Sure, it's entirely possible and maybe even probable that he'd take that next step up with better receivers. It's also possible that the next step he takes isn't quite as large as you think, and then you're paying him $30M+ per year to be only slightly better than he is right now, and paying those new receivers for the boost that never quite arrives. We entered this year with a 1st round WR, a 2nd round WR, a big money FA WR, to go along with a supremely talented RB. There have been significant injuries at WR to go along with at least one headcase at the position to go along with effort/dedication question marks for another, but it's not like the position itself has been neglected. How many more resources go to that position AND still cover a 4x increase in the price of the QB? Ideally, you'd like to have a little more than hope to go on when you're determining the right contract value for DJ. I think that's Jon's point (or at least that's my interpretation). Giants fans are so beaten down by the past few years of dreadful football that they're willing to fork over a fortune just for the feeling of hope that they'd forgotten for years. It should take more than hope to make a decision this important for the franchise.

You overstate my take on the cap at every turn. This is why I don't even want to sucked into the cap talk.

You also overstate the impact of paying a lot of money to a good player at a premium position.

Try and stay in the nuance of things.

In comment 15912100 djm said:

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You overstate my take on the cap at every turn. This is why I don't even want to sucked into the cap talk. You also overstate the impact of paying a lot of money to a good player at a premium position. Try and stay in the nuance of things.

There's a cognitive dissonance involved in dismissing the impact of overpaying players with enormous contracts and simultaneously claiming to be aware of the cap and its consequences.

DJ is playing well.

I'll say it again, when it comes to certain players or certain positions, ESPECIALLY QB, the cap goes out the fucking window. It's right there in front of you to see, all around the NFL. Teams make financially hard decisions all the time, due to the cap and budgets, but they make clean sweeping bite the bullet decisions when the juice aint worth the squeeze and they go all in for years at a time when it is worth it.

IF this was 1998 or 2008 or 2022, the Giants will bring back Jones because they want to. Or they let him go because they feel he is replacable. It was hard to move on from a
expensive poor QB back in the 80s too. Still is today. Money was a factor in 1988 and it's a factor now, yes probably even more so now, but The Giants won't be sitting there in March saying "we can't bring DJ back as the cap hit will be too big" nope, sorry not happening. They will be saying we don't think he's good enough long term. We can upgrade. That's why he won't be back.

They aren't making a cap decision on Daniel Jones. This isn't the backup guard we're talking about. IT's the QB. IF they like him, he's coming back--big money and all.

This is not a fucking cap decision as much as it is a QB decision. It's bigger than cap hits.

In comment 15912108 Gatorade Dunk said:

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In comment 15912100 djm said: Quote: You overstate my take on the cap at every turn. This is why I don't even want to sucked into the cap talk. You also overstate the impact of paying a lot of money to a good player at a premium position. Try and stay in the nuance of things. There's a cognitive dissonance involved in dismissing the impact of overpaying players with enormous contracts and simultaneously claiming to be aware of the cap and its consequences.

Again, you're saying shit that I never truly stated. You're perfect for internet debates. Just win the argument, that's all that counts right?

In comment 15912115 djm said:

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DJ is playing well. I'll say it again, when it comes to certain players or certain positions, ESPECIALLY QB, the cap goes out the fucking window. It's right there in front of you to see, all around the NFL. Teams make financially hard decisions all the time, due to the cap and budgets, but they make clean sweeping bite the bullet decisions when the juice aint worth the squeeze and they go all in for years at a time when it is worth it. IF this was 1998 or 2008 or 2022, the Giants will bring back Jones because they want to. Or they let him go because they feel he is replacable. It was hard to move on from a expensive poor QB back in the 80s too. Still is today. Money was a factor in 1988 and it's a factor now, yes probably even more so now, but The Giants won't be sitting there in March saying "we can't bring DJ back as the cap hit will be too big" nope, sorry not happening. They will be saying we don't think he's good enough long term. We can upgrade. That's why he won't be back. They aren't making a cap decision on Daniel Jones. This isn't the backup guard we're talking about. IT's the QB. IF they like him, he's coming back--big money and all. This is not a fucking cap decision as much as it is a QB decision. It's bigger than cap hits.

The cap hit is part of the reason WHY it's such a massive decision. And even if you through the cap out the window, you're still basing it primarily on hope if you see nothing more over the next eight games that you haven't seen already.

For what it's going to cost, and how inescapable the contract may be for some length of time, it's not unreasonable to hope to see a little bit more progress in 2022 before laying out the big bucks instead of paying them out first and then still betting on hope.

it's MArch, Schoen and Daboll sit there in Giants central and to a man, both acknowledge that JONES gives them the best chance to win in 2023 based on where they draft, FA and their own roster. Jones is their best realistic option and to a man, they feel that Jones can do the job at a good enough level They may not LOVE him like they loved Allen, but they like him a lot.

With that in mind, is he coming back? Cap and all?

The answer is 90% yes. Allow for the slight chance that some team goes completely ape shit and offers DJ a deal so far out of this world that NYG can't bear to match. 10%.

Again, this is going to be a football decision and I can almost hear those words being uttered in the PC. FOOTBALL DECISION.

He's playing better than you and Jon (on this thread) are saying so why should we keep debating. IT's pointless.

Hope was week 1. It's week 11 now.

but I can pretty much guarantee if Schoen extends DJ that hope won’t be involved. He will either be sold, or her won’t.

if there was no cap this would still be a big decision! You're going all in on the QB cap or no cap. In the 80s teams that bet big on their vet QB didn't just pivot overnight and find a new one if needed, they were stuck. Just like now.

Cap is a thing. IT's a factor. It's not everything and anyone who insists on this is weird.

if they let Jones walk and lose with some young QB that can't play.

Letting a good player walk just because of the cap or money would lead to a revolt if the Giants failed to find a good enough QB.

I trust this regime.

we will see what happens. Good luck to NYG.

Archie - last week:

"A lot of people thought that Eli was washed up (the last few years) and you had to get him out of there. I didn't feel like Eli was washed up. He was pretty much physically the exact same player he'd been years before that. But he played his best football when he had a balanced running game, and they just didn't have that his last five years there.

Physically Daniel is very good, and he's bright, and he checks all the boxes. It just bothered me that [fans and media] were getting on him. It wasn't too much different from Eli's last few years. When you can't run the ball, very seldom are you going to be successful in the passing game.

I think Daniel can absolutely take his team to a Super Bowl. I think Daniel can be one of the top quarterbacks in the league. He's accurate with the football, he's tough, he's got escapability and he's smart. If you put a good team around Daniel, he can lead them down the right road."

In comment 15912125 UConn4523 said:

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but I can pretty much guarantee if Schoen extends DJ that hope won’t be involved. He will either be sold, or her won’t.

You're 100% right on that, and I agree. But as of right now, IMO, it's still hope. And from my view, I think Schoen is still waiting to see how the rest of the season goes (both for the Giants and for DJ) - if it were already decided, if DJ had already done enough, then I would have expected Schoen to have tried to bring DJ to the negotiating table already, the way that he has with Barkley and Love.

That suggests to me that DJ hasn't finished making his case yet. Thus, as of today, anyone speaking with confidence that DJ will be back next year and beyond is betting on hope. I can easily see a scenario where DJ is definitely back, and I can see a scenario where DJ is definitely not.

As of right now, I think Schoen is waiting to see more from DJ before committing. How much more is anyone's guess (as far as fans go), but I don't think anyone can claim that Schoen and Daboll are already sold on DJ. If they weren't negotiating with anyone, I could understand the confidence. But they did. Just not DJ. I don't think it's decided just yet either way, and for that reason, I go back to Jon's posts above, which nail it, IMO.