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NGT: Zach Wilson losing the locker room

Giantsfan79 : 11/21/2022 11:19 am
from PFT

Quote:
After Sunday’s loss to the Patriots, Jets quarterback Zach Wilson acted his apparent age by declining to admit that his performance let down the defense, which held New England to just a field goal.

It should be easy got a quarterback to take public accountability, especially when it’s warranted. Of course he’s responsible, at least in part, for the failure of the Jets to score three points for the game — and to gain only two net yards in the second half.

Even if he believes deep down that it isn’t his fault, it’s important for the quarterback to embrace the scrutiny and not deflect it. The locker room is listening. Did the quarterback take the heat? Or did he point fingers?

And it wasn’t just the things Wilson said to reporters. Connor Hughes of SNY.tv reports, citing unnamed sources inside the team’s locker room, that Wilson “was walking around after the game ‘like he isn’t the problem.'” Per Hughes, Wilson’s demeanor “rubbed more than a few the wrong way.”

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Jets are fucked...again.  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/21/2022 5:35 pm : link
.
The Jets suck  
PatersonPlank : 11/21/2022 5:57 pm : link
Their QB sucks, their coaches suck, and their fans suck
Just looked at Wilson’s game stats  
cosmicj : 11/21/2022 6:12 pm : link
He’s started 8 games and thrown 4 TDS. Looks a 1950s Chicago Cardinals QB line.
Jets should be patient with him  
JB_in_DC : 11/21/2022 6:23 pm : link
They’d be rock solid right now they had held on to Geno
RE: Just looked at Wilson’s game stats  
JayBinQueens : 11/21/2022 6:34 pm : link
In comment 15917333 cosmicj said:
Quote:
He’s started 8 games and thrown 4 TDS. Looks a 1950s Chicago Cardinals QB line.


Mac Jones is 4-0 vs the Jets and has only thrown 3 TDs in those games. TDs thrown obviously doesn't tell the whole story
RE: This thread should appear  
bw in dc : 11/21/2022 6:36 pm : link
In comment 15917002 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:

The Jets are 5-2 in games he has started this season after going 3-10 last season.



Proving once again that using W-L to evaluate a QB is inane.
The Jets have done something to anger the QB gods.  
cosmicj : 11/21/2022 6:37 pm : link
One massive busted draft pick after another.

Heck, Brett Favre signs with the Jets after throwing for over 4000 yards the previous season. His Jets campaign is a quarterbacking fiasco and he throws 22 picks. The Jets release him and he moves to the Vikings where the next season he again throws for over 4000 yards in a 33TD/ 7 INT campaign. Just putting on the Jets uniform seems to have changed Favre into a failed QB.

It’s comical and unreal at the same time.
What’s the over under on how many weeks post super bowl  
djm : 11/21/2022 6:41 pm : link
Before the aaron rodgers to jets trade talks start coming up? 2 weeks?

Jets tried with Favre. Why not try again.
RE:  
bw in dc : 11/21/2022 6:41 pm : link
In comment 15916826 djm said:
Quote:
I couldn't care less about those traits. There is so much more to the being a QB than just the arm strength that people go nuts about. I have a good arm too. Big fucking deal.


You can ignore it all you want, but arm talent matters. It's the great differentiator for QBs. Why do you think, for example, KC's offense become this historically prolific after Mahomes took the baton from Alex Smith?
This thread is already pretty funny but if  
cosmicj : 11/21/2022 6:45 pm : link
A BBI debate breaks out over whether arm talent is important to QBing, it will take it to the next level. (Is the sky blue?)
He comes across as a kid, and not in any good way.  
Gruber : 11/21/2022 6:52 pm : link
Not smart enough.
RE: RE:  
djm : 11/21/2022 7:06 pm : link
In comment 15917363 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15916826 djm said:


Quote:


I couldn't care less about those traits. There is so much more to the being a QB than just the arm strength that people go nuts about. I have a good arm too. Big fucking deal.



You can ignore it all you want, but arm talent matters. It's the great differentiator for QBs. Why do you think, for example, KC's offense become this historically prolific after Mahomes took the baton from Alex Smith?


Mahomes has a great arm, your point? He’s also insanely smart, knows how to read defenses and tough as a boot.

If mahomes wasn’t smart and cerebral and dedicated he’s a backup by now.

They all have good arms. It’s literally the easiest fucking thing to scout. Why are so nany laser armed qbs out of the league by 30? Cmon.
Alex smith had a rag arm (not my words)  
djm : 11/21/2022 7:07 pm : link
Yet lasted 15 years. I wonder why.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/21/2022 7:38 pm : link
He comes across like a total jackass. I'm sure the defense loves him.
Arm strength is definitely an over-valued trait in QBs.  
BlackLight : 11/21/2022 8:34 pm : link
You need a certain amount of it to be functional as a QB at the pro level, but beyond that, it simply isn't the case that more is better. Peyton Manning and Joe Montana didn't have arm strength that blew you away, but they're still in the Hall Of Fame.
RE: Arm strength is definitely an over-valued trait in QBs.  
bw in dc : 11/21/2022 8:49 pm : link
In comment 15917453 BlackLight said:
Quote:
You need a certain amount of it to be functional as a QB at the pro level, but beyond that, it simply isn't the case that more is better. Peyton Manning and Joe Montana didn't have arm strength that blew you away, but they're still in the Hall Of Fame.


Arm talent is different than arm strength. I'm not talking about being able to throw the ball 80 yards. I'm talking about the ability to throw from different arm angles, changing velocity, throwing on the run (either way), throwing off balance when you can't get to your fundamentals, etc.
Wilson  
stretch234 : 11/21/2022 10:14 pm : link
Yet another QB with a really good arm who actually has no clue how to play QB

As someone else said, it appears at lot of time he thinks he is on the playground

Even if it is not all his fault the QB takes the heat - that is the reality of the NFL. This is a bad sign for them
RE: RE: Arm strength is definitely an over-valued trait in QBs.  
BlackLight : 11/21/2022 11:37 pm : link
In comment 15917463 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15917453 BlackLight said:


Quote:


You need a certain amount of it to be functional as a QB at the pro level, but beyond that, it simply isn't the case that more is better. Peyton Manning and Joe Montana didn't have arm strength that blew you away, but they're still in the Hall Of Fame.



Arm talent is different than arm strength. I'm not talking about being able to throw the ball 80 yards. I'm talking about the ability to throw from different arm angles, changing velocity, throwing on the run (either way), throwing off balance when you can't get to your fundamentals, etc.


Arm talent is also an overvalued trait. Again, see Peyton, Brady, most any relevant QB you can think of - they all played with rock-solid fundamentals. Guys like Mahomes are the exception.

And in fact, like a super athletic running QB, having too much arm talent can work against you. When a guy's convinced he's able to accomplish anything with his legs or his arm, he's liable to try anything with his legs or his arm. And it winds up hampering his development in other areas.
RE: Jones  
sharp315 : 11/21/2022 11:41 pm : link
In comment 15916740 Archer said:
Quote:
Just think how good the Jets would be with Jones at the helm.

I am late to this thread - but yes, this is why DJ is going to get serious offers in free agency. There are lots of teams - I counted over 12 last time I did this - that have a pretty nice offense and just need a serviceable QB. The Jets could easily win the AFC East this year if they had just a very average QB like a Heinicke. I would put DJ above 'average' although not by much.
Great discussion  
allstarjim : 11/22/2022 1:03 am : link
I think what we're all searching for is, "what makes a great QB great?" And often times, arm talent, which yes, is not the same as arm strength, is on display in great QBs. You can see the manifestation of arm talent in the great ones, like Peyton, Marino, and indeed, Mahomes.

I believe to be a great QB in the NFL, you can't point to any single attribute, but a confluence of attributes.

But the most important ones are being a quick processor of information, football smarts and instincts, and a stellar work ethic, which works in concert with the first two.

And yes, arm talent really, really helps because the arm talent combined with the attributes above gives you the ability to make special things happen.

Someone mentioned Alex Smith, who didn't have the arm talent. What he had was a lot of the other stuff, work ethic, football smarts, and ability to process and execute quickly. But because the arm talent is limited, he couldn't make the plays that a Mahomes, Herbert, and Josh Allen can make.

And arm strength is one ingredient to arm talent. Being able to make a throw off-schedule, off-platform, but with accuracy, velocity, and/or touch, from different angles and ability to do so using a large part of the field, that's arm talent.

But for that to be useful, you need to have the superior mental preparation, make the right reads, manipulate the defense at times, and execute making the right decisions with where to go with the football based on pre-snap information and post-snap information, without having to think about it. Instincts.

Drew Brees was one of the best ever despite having a less than elite arm, because he was a superior decision maker and could make the right decision and put the ball on his man accurately, but it was the speed with which he could process all this information and execute his decision that made him great.

Same goes for Brady and Peyton. All of these things have to be combined in a QB to be special.

DJ might not have the superior arm strength, but is a good student of the game, has the preparation and knowledge he needs. The one thing I question is the speed at which he processes post-snap information to be decisive and make the right decisions. And this is why I think we haven't seen the enough evidence that he can be a dynamic passer. And to be fair, the supporting cast hasn't been there and that is certainly a limiting factor.

But I also think he's left a lot of opportunities gone by the wayside, where plays have been there, he just hasn't seen it quick enough to be able to execute the big plays downfield often enough.

It's a tough criticism, because he has a lot of the other aforementioned ingredients to be great, particularly in his study and preparation.

If he can learn to do everything he's doing now but a half-second quicker, and see the downfield opportunities and execute, I think he could yet develop into a great QB.

None of this is easy. And it's fair to question if this is a case of you have it or you don't...which goes back to those football instincts.
There is more to "arm traits" than throwing the ball hard or far  
Producer : 11/22/2022 2:35 am : link
And this is for the poster who said that so many with great arm traits have failed. Pat Mahomes, and other great QBs, have other arm traits besides "throws hard and far".

Pat Mahomes throws with great touch. He throws with great placement and timing. He throws with exceptional accuracy. He throws a very catchable ball. It's not true that it is all about "throws the ball hard" and the rest is mental. And I would submit that there are very few QBs who possess all the following arm traits (and there aren't many of them) who have failed:

Throw the ball hard and far.
Throw the ball with great accuracy.
Throw with great placement and timing.
Throw a very catchable ball.

There are very few who have all these traits. And the Ryan Leaf's and JaMarcus Russell's, who have all been huge busts, didn't in fact have enough arm talent to make it in the NFL, when you look at the totality of qualities that make up arm traits connected to throwing a football.
Listened to the Athletic Football Podcast talk about Wilson  
BigBlue7 : 11/22/2022 7:47 am : link
He only reads the primary route and then bails out of the pocket when it isn't open.

He bails backwards and turns is back to the LOS for a brief period time - a recipe for disaster

He tries to make every throw look like a trick shot. He has no fundamentals and rarely throws the ball with "proper technique"

Then throw his immaturity and inability to handle the media on top of that and he is a DISASTER

They had a stat that since 2000 there have been something like 105 QBs in the NFL that have attempted over 500 pass attempts. Wilson ranks 98th amongst those QBs in EPA per drop back.

Absolutely ABYSMAL
Arm talent, strength  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/23/2022 7:51 am : link
however you want to look at it is important. You can get around it if you lack it to a point but at some point it is going to hurt a team. Defensive staffs are very smart and the talented ones will force a QB to make certain throws that they think the QB will struggle with. But plenty of QB's and teams have gotten around it but that QB makes up for it in other areas and play on teams that can overcome that deficiency. Still, building a offense that limits certain throws (because of QB) hurts a team.

The position ultimately comes down to making and executing decisions under pressure. This is done in most cases a little under 3 seconds. Close your eyes and count to three Mississippi. Then think of all the things you may have to deal with within that time. It becomes clearer why so many never reach a acceptable level who have played the position.
You can understand why the talent around the QB matters once you get how hard it is.
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