Raanan on the Daniel Jones decision

as mud.

In comment 15917646 section125 said:

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as mud.

I think it’s quite clear. The economics of the decision is huge and I’m honestly surprised it isn’t discussed more. Jones could get a 4 year deal at $25M per. When people say Jones is the least of their problems, the pending FA status seems to be ignored.

As the article says they have, I'd franchise him. Still wary of a long-term commitment, but they won't have a better alternative for next season. They need to keep him far more than Barkley.

In comment 15917651 jeff57 said:

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As the article says they have, I'd franchise him. Still wary of a long-term commitment, but they won't have a better alternative for next season. They need to keep him far more than Barkley.

That’s a massive number. I would not franchise him.

These are many of the points I’ve been making.

This is why I think it’s a lock he’s franchised. It’s better to make a 30M bet on him at this point rather than a 200M. And because of the number of teams looking for a QB, there will be a long term deal out there for him.

of Bears and Trubisky.

With a real good D, Trubisky won games for the Bears. When the Bears D declined, Trubisky couldn't pick up the slack.

I don't see anyway the Giants give Jones a long term deal.
Will the Giants be able to get him on a one or two year deal? Depends on how desperate other NFL teams are.

This will be very interesting to follow.

In comment 15917655 ZogZerg said:

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of Bears and Trubisky. With a real good D, Trubisky won games for the Bears. When the Bears D declined, Trubisky couldn't pick up the slack. I don't see anyway the Giants give Jones a long term deal. Will the Giants be able to get him on a one or two year deal? Depends on how desperate other NFL teams are. This will be very interesting to follow.

It’s so similar to Trubisky. He has a better W/L record than Jones and took them to the playoffs getting a home playoff game.

In comment 15917650 Sean said:

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In comment 15917646 section125 said: Quote: as mud. I think it’s quite clear. The economics of the decision is huge and I’m honestly surprised it isn’t discussed more. Jones could get a 4 year deal at $25M per. When people say Jones is the least of their problems, the pending FA status seems to be ignored.

We all had a fairly decent idea what the numbers would be. We all had a fairly decent idea that there will be a few teams interested in him.

I like Jones. I think he is a decent, midlevel NFL QB. I do not think he is the future, so why spend money on him at all.
I think the Winston numbers are about correct for what will be offered. I am not sure it is in the Giants best interest to re-sign him. I would not be upset if they feel he should be, but why do that when Taylor is already there. And I think Taylor is a notch below Jones, overall, FWIW.

Sounds like other execs do think much of him either.

my response was it’s more like a year to earn a prove it year. He has done that. But it’s not worth $30+M a year. I think 2-3 years at $15-20M is reasonable. Jones may get a better offer, but I think he’s seeing what this regime is capable of, and Giants are his best long term opportunity.

In comment 15917654 christian said:

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These are many of the points I’ve been making. This is why I think it’s a lock he’s franchised. It’s better to make a 30M bet on him at this point rather than a 200M. And because of the number of teams looking for a QB, there will be a long term deal out there for him.

A big question which we don’t know is what Schoen/Daboll think of any of the upcoming QB’s in the draft class.

If they like one and can get them reasonably, I think Taylor as the bridge makes a ton more sense. Schoen would have an extra $24M to sprinkle around the roster while Saquon could be franchised.

In comment 15917654 christian said:

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These are many of the points I’ve been making. This is why I think it’s a lock he’s franchised. It’s better to make a 30M bet on him at this point rather than a 200M. And because of the number of teams looking for a QB, there will be a long term deal out there for him.

I don't think there's as $200m deal out there for him. I used to think he wouldn't be considered for the tag but I'm warming up to the tag + drafting a QB early.

In comment 15917663 Pepe LePugh said:

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my response was it’s more like a year to earn a prove it year. He has done that. But it’s not worth $30+M a year. I think 2-3 years at $15-20M is reasonable. Jones may get a better offer, but I think he’s seeing what this regime is capable of, and Giants are his best long term opportunity.

It's call a prove it year. This is his prove it year.
Jones is getting paid whether here or somewhere else. He is not taking 15 to 20 million. if he stays.. figure 35 per. Why would he do a multi billion dollar franchise a favor at the cost of his future. I know I wouldn't. It's more than just the money. It's the commitment to him. That is what the money signifies. All in all I think he walks. I think Barkley is gone too.

In comment 15917665 Sean said:

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In comment 15917654 christian said: Quote: These are many of the points I’ve been making. This is why I think it’s a lock he’s franchised. It’s better to make a 30M bet on him at this point rather than a 200M. And because of the number of teams looking for a QB, there will be a long term deal out there for him. A big question which we don’t know is what Schoen/Daboll think of any of the upcoming QB’s in the draft class. If they like one and can get them reasonably, I think Taylor as the bridge makes a ton more sense. Schoen would have an extra $24M to sprinkle around the roster while Saquon could be franchised.

Taylor is a bridge to nowhere. You might as well flush the season. Hitting on a QB in the draft would be a better bet.

situations has to work for the Panthers. I mean it’s hard to win drop back situations when you are on your back. I am not a huge Jones fan and think the bridge is where to go if there is interest on both sides, but that statement was plain ignorant. Jordan is probably talking to the coffee boy in some group

In comment 15917675 Essex said:

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situations has to work for the Panthers. I mean it’s hard to win drop back situations when you are on your back. I am not a huge Jones fan and think the bridge is where to go if there is interest on both sides, but that statement was plain ignorant. Jordan is probably talking to the coffee boy in some group

I was thinking the same things. Daniel seems capable of making all the throws. The lack of production from the pocket seems more on an inability to consistently create a pocket.

Hindsight being 20-20, I wonder if we pick up his 5th year option this past spring?

is simply ludicrous. The time to do that would have been last off season, but that ship has sailed. I think Tannenbaum is right, Jones would get $25M on the open market. I don’t think that’s a bad AAV number for the Giants, but the questions are going to be how many years and how much guaranteed money? I agree that he could be a bridge QB, but how long is that bridge?

There is no way in hell he will take under 20MM. He will surely walk if that is what they are offering. He’ll get a lot more on the open market. I do think that he would rather stay in NY. That would probably mean a hometown discount of about 5MM per. But I think that as long as he continues to perform, there will be 1-2 teams out there that will offer north of 30MM.

In comment 15917681 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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Hindsight being 20-20, I wonder if we pick up his 5th year option this past spring?

With hindsight, yes. But they made the right decision at the time.

That's a job-risking contract for a GM to give out (assuming it's for 3-4 years with high guarantees).

But FAs prices do always go higher than we all expect...

I'm starting to think:

-1- Get a Barkley contract done so that you know you don't need to use a tag on him

-2- Make Jones what you believe to be a "fair" offer. To me, that's something in the neighborhood of 4 years, $100M, $50M guaranteed, moderately backloaded (18 / 23 / 28 / 31)

-3- If he doesn't take the deal, place the transition tag, let the market decide his value and then NYG can take it or leave it.

At that time he said we still have 9 more games (now 7) with regard to Jones in the evaluation. I always felt that the last 7 would be critical to how they handle things.

Schoen has a good idea what is in the draft and his ability to be able to land a QB he likes. This will be weighed against Jones performance. The big variable to me is cost.

If he has to pay Jones 25-35 million that money can't be used on some of our other players or adding some new ones. Is Jones worth that versus going with a rookie and being able to add more pieces around him?

In the end I can see a tag and also adding a QB in round 2-3. This gives them a year to evaluate that QB and also allows the opportunity to still go again to the draft in a year or two if needed.

They still will be expected to win and Jones is a known entity. When you win you extend the clock and this is more important for BD. JS has a longer leash but winning will keep the meddling from ownership at a distant (we hope).

i would have offered him 4 years at 25M but it seems like that ship might have sailed for both parties already. The 2 year deal is interesting. Something to consider as the team is likely going to be good enough where they won't have a high draft pick anyway.

In comment 15917697 ryanmkeane said:

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i would have offered him 4 years at 25M but it seems like that ship might have sailed for both parties already. The 2 year deal is interesting. Something to consider as the team is likely going to be good enough where they won't have a high draft pick anyway.

Yeah but that means nothing. Teams trade up for QB’s all the time.

In comment 15917692 bigbluehoya said:

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-3- If he doesn't take the deal, place the transition tag, let the market decide his value and then NYG can take it or leave it.

Ok, once you place the transition tag and he signs it, there is no going back, is there?

In comment 15917697 ryanmkeane said:

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i would have offered him 4 years at 25M but it seems like that ship might have sailed for both parties already. The 2 year deal is interesting. Something to consider as the team is likely going to be good enough where they won't have a high draft pick anyway.

Jones has to keep playing at this level though. If he regresses at all his value won’t remain where it is today. He’s one of the few players who’s stock is this volatile (IMO), it’s pretty fascinating.

In comment 15917692 bigbluehoya said:

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That's a job-risking contract for a GM to give out (assuming it's for 3-4 years with high guarantees). But FAs prices do always go higher than we all expect... I'm starting to think: -1- Get a Barkley contract done so that you know you don't need to use a tag on him -2- Make Jones what you believe to be a "fair" offer. To me, that's something in the neighborhood of 4 years, $100M, $50M guaranteed, moderately backloaded (18 / 23 / 28 / 31) -3- If he doesn't take the deal, place the transition tag, let the market decide his value and then NYG can take it or leave it.

It’s also job risking if you fail to find an equal replacement and Jones hues in to lead another team to the playoffs

you either think he's the guy and are confident to build around him or you don't. i guess we will find out after this season if Schoen and Daboll are confident to shell out significant money for him. I think they will.

In comment 15917669 UConn4523 said:

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This is why I think it’s a lock he’s franchised. It’s better to make a 30M bet on him at this point rather than a 200M. And because of the number of teams looking for a QB, there will be a long term deal out there for him. I don't think there's as $200m deal out there for him. I used to think he wouldn't be considered for the tag but I'm warming up to the tag + drafting a QB early.

What I’m saying is I don’t want the Giants to make a 200M bet on him based on this season.

I’ve maintained since the day Mara made the “screw this kid up” comment, that Jones would get two years. I was shocked they didn’t pick up his option. Simply because he would have needed to really shit the bed to not be back.

There are just too many unknowns to say definitively that Jones can’t succeed under normal circumstances. And I’ve been really skeptical of Jones since 2020, but even I can see that.

In comment 15917650 Sean said:

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In comment 15917646 section125 said: Quote: as mud. I think it’s quite clear. The economics of the decision is huge and I’m honestly surprised it isn’t discussed more. Jones could get a 4 year deal at $25M per. When people say Jones is the least of their problems, the pending FA status seems to be ignored.

It isn't discussed more because the intricacies of the cap are more than some fans appear to want from their football fan experience, but it's always been the biggest factor looming over the DJ decision so long as his level of play didn't provide an absolute no brainer answer in either direction.

Personally, I'd gladly take DJ back on the same contract that Winston got, but I also understand that it will require allowing DJ to test the market in order to achieve that, and once you allow DJ to test the market, you do introduce the possibility of some other team overpaying him.

Personally, I'm ok with that as an outcome, because I don't want the Giants to overpay players (as a general rule), and because the very nature of a Winston-level contract is for a fungible QB who has established competency as an NFL starter. And if you want to pay QB carousel prices, you have to be willing to shop at the QB carousel store, and that means putting your own QB on the carousel as well - you can hope to bring your own guy back, but there's no guarantee of that.

I get the sense that there are other fans for whom that outcome would be extremely disheartening. I don't deny the validity of that viewpoint either, but I do find it logically inconsistent when those fans aren't the ones pounding the table for a long-term contract at the $35M+ AAV level. The reason why it's inconsistent is that's basically the starting point for QB contracts that preclude an open-market bidding war. I don't want to be cuffed to DJ for the next four years and $140M+ of cap space, personally, but I do recognize that it would probably take a significant contract to sign DJ before FA opens - and I think that significant contract is likely to be an overpay, IMO.

And then there's the franchise tag, which has become an intriguing Goldilocks alternative for this offseason, but I'm of the opinion that Barkley is the more prudent recipient for the tag this year. I suspect Schoen prioritized negotiations with Barkley so that he could have the threat of the tag on the table with SB but not have to use it, so that he could reserve it for Jones if necessary. Now that seems less likely to me - I think Barkley is the odds-on favorite to get tagged if he isn't signed by the tag deadline.

Rest of the way. It’s not on him it’s the supporting cast is getting worse and worse. Barkley is slowing down (or the OL forgot how to block against Detroit). Without Robinson Wr will also take a hit. Plus we are playing some good teams. 344 yds in the air and 50 rushing 2TDs (yes you give him the run) 2 int (one on 4th) was not a bad game. Go get a rookie like the Jets (or even Lawrence last year) and you will wish we had Jones. No QB I can remember has done more with less.

It's obvious we cannot keep running the offense this way. The blueprint is set on how to defend this team and if they don't alter things we could go on a significant losing streak in respects to the playoffs.

They need to open up the offense a bit more. In doing so they will give us a clearer picture on Jones. Regardless of how the WR is looking this is still the NFL and the players have to step up.

In comment 15917701 section125 said:

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In comment 15917692 bigbluehoya said: Quote: -3- If he doesn't take the deal, place the transition tag, let the market decide his value and then NYG can take it or leave it. Ok, once you place the transition tag and he signs it, there is no going back, is there?

If he decides to sign it and not seek a contract with another team, the salary is average of Top 10 at the position instead of top 5. I believe that number was $27M for the current year.

If he does sign with another team, NYG get an opportunity to match, and if they do not, they get no compensation.

In comment 15917697 ryanmkeane said:

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i would have offered him 4 years at 25M but it seems like that ship might have sailed for both parties already. The 2 year deal is interesting. Something to consider as the team is likely going to be good enough where they won't have a high draft pick anyway.

You told us that Jones wasn't like that as a person, and he'd obviously accept a discount to help out the Giants.

Stick with your dumb suggestion and take your lumps. I think after the past couple of months, no one deserves to be subject to other peoples' "told ya so" lap more than you do.

In comment 15917655 ZogZerg said:

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of Bears and Trubisky. With a real good D, Trubisky won games for the Bears. When the Bears D declined, Trubisky couldn't pick up the slack. I don't see anyway the Giants give Jones a long term deal. Will the Giants be able to get him on a one or two year deal? Depends on how desperate other NFL teams are. This will be very interesting to follow.

The similarities go well beyond what you’ve laid out. The Bears offense, quite like the Giants offense was completely devoid of skill players(think it was Allen Robinson and that was about it).

be of major concern is the $32 mill owed to LW next season. How do they get out from underneath that? IIRC, LW wanted another bite at the apple and that is why he only wanted three(?) years.
Does he decide to sign another contract with guaranteed money that gets him to a 5th year? They can save $12 mill by cutting him with a $20 mill dead cap hit. But I think they want to keep him.
This has to do with freeing money for 2023...

And I'm ecstatic with our coaching staff. However I do wish he had a little less short-termism with his game plans. He's conjuring stuff up to give us the best chance to win every week - great job and I get where he's coming from.

But both in terms riding Barkley and more importantly testing Jones in a real NFL offense, I'd prefer to see us a a little more forward looking. Perhaps he already knows that Jones can't run a real NFL passing offense, but I would like to see him get the chance to sink or swim on the field during games.

Most people have seen enough in his extended run of mediocrity to have a good idea of his level. But for the future, we are better off letting him try to play real QB and seeing what happens.

In comment 15917682 Section331 said:

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is simply ludicrous. The time to do that would have been last off season, but that ship has sailed. I think Tannenbaum is right, Jones would get $25M on the open market. I don’t think that’s a bad AAV number for the Giants, but the questions are going to be how many years and how much guaranteed money? I agree that he could be a bridge QB, but how long is that bridge?

How was the time to do that last offseason if he’s under contract for this year?

test the market to see his value. That's the right move.

What's the downside? If he gets a great deal from another team, do we really feel bad that we are losing this transcendent talent? God, no. This isn't a Patrick Mahomes talent we're talking about here...

If this GM/HC can't find a talent to replace Jones they shouldn't be in their respective jobs.

In comment 15917697 ryanmkeane said:

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i would have offered him 4 years at 25M but it seems like that ship might have sailed for both parties already. The 2 year deal is interesting. Something to consider as the team is likely going to be good enough where they won't have a high draft pick anyway.

You told me directly you believe Jones is playing at 8/10 level, with 10 being All Pro.

What's your definition of "paying him" as you've posted below?

Here are the players slated to make 30M+ next year. It's half of the starers in the NFL. Who on that list is better than Jones?

Rodgers
Wilson
Murray
Watson
Mahomes
Allen
Carr
Prescott
Stafford
Cousins
Goff
Wentz
Ryan
Burrows*
Herbert*
Hurts*

To sign a fair starting QB deal for a year or two and to draft a developmental QB.

The Giants should just put the transition tag on him and let the market dictate what he is worth. They can match any offer and if they don’t think he is worth it then he goes.

NY Giants will be trying to evaluate DJ without ever having paired him with an alpha WR.

Taking a chance either way. No way around it now unless we can legitimately start discussing the epiphany of Golladay which seems unlikely.

In comment 15917736 bw in dc said:

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test the market to see his value. That's the right move. What's the downside? If he gets a great deal from another team, do we really feel bad that we are losing this transcendent talent? God, no. This isn't a Patrick Mahomes talent we're talking about here... If this GM/HC can't find a talent to replace Jones they shouldn't be in their respective jobs.

Agreed. Give a 1 or 2 year offer at around 10–15 million and let him test the market. If he finds something better so be it.

Tyrod Taylor is. Again, what did the Bills do after they went to the playoffs with Taylor in 2016?

They used an OL starter and 2 second round picks to trade up and draft Josh Allen and traded Taylor.

None of us are in charge of evaluating Jones, so we can go round and round. In my mind, this is the most likely direction.

Dunk, you can go ahead and fuck off.

Jones wants to be a Giant, and yes, he would probably take some form of a lesser deal to stay with them than to go to some other shit organization like Washington.

christian, "i told you directly" that Jones is the guy.

You guys debating this every single day isn't going to change my opinion of what will happen.

Already has 2 Daniel Jones

In comment 15917748 ryanmkeane said:

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christian, "i told you directly" that Jones is the guy. You guys debating this every single day isn't going to change my opinion of what will happen.

So just so we're clear: you think Jones is the guy, he's playing at near All Pro level, but you have no opinion on how much he should be paid?

If the Giants fizzle out and go 8-9 and miss the playoffs, I’d be floored if Jones is back at any large number including the tag.

from the Osweiler etc era. It's dividing into haves and have nots like the wr market on money is going to defenders. No one is paying Jones 35 million or even 20 million. Mariota got 2 years at 9 million each. Brisset, who threw for 300 yards and 3 td's in his garbage time on Sunday, didn't get $5M. Geno Smith is getting 3.5M. Trubisky got 7M per year for a 2 year deal. Garappollo is playing for 10M and couldn't find a trade partner with a 25M contract. Carr and Wentz, who both have $25M contracts are both going to end up getting cut this spring in favor of lower cost options.

That's Jones' market and his competition. And you can go in the draft and find a qb for cheap.

It's not a popularity contest, it's a business, and if you can replace the production in the factory at a lower cost, the business is going to do it.

who said he's playing at a "near all pro level"???

You guys are taking every single thing i say and pulling it apart as if to say I think Jones is the best quarterback in the NFL.

He's a good quarterback playing pretty well in a pretty shitty situation. That's my opinion.

My opinion is that he will eventually get paid like a good starting quarterback, whatever the fuck that turns out to be.

You guys fighting over 5M here or there makes no difference to this discussion.

In comment 15917656 Sean said:

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In comment 15917655 ZogZerg said: Quote: of Bears and Trubisky. With a real good D, Trubisky won games for the Bears. When the Bears D declined, Trubisky couldn't pick up the slack. I don't see anyway the Giants give Jones a long term deal. Will the Giants be able to get him on a one or two year deal? Depends on how desperate other NFL teams are. This will be very interesting to follow. It’s so similar to Trubisky. He has a better W/L record than Jones and took them to the playoffs getting a home playoff game.

He also made a Pro-Bowl with the Bears! All of these people saying you have to pay Jones would have been screaming to re-sign Trubisky if they were Bears fans

In comment 15917748 ryanmkeane said:

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christian, "i told you directly" that Jones is the guy. You guys debating this every single day isn't going to change my opinion of what will happen.

If the ship has sailed on a 4 year deal, then theres not much confidence he’s the guy.

With a 1 year 25 mill contract if they can’t get a good prospect in the draft. I’m not ready to commit long term. Second thing is that he won’t accept a 1 year deal.

In comment 15917764 ryanmkeane said:

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who said he's playing at a "near all pro level"??? You guys are taking every single thing i say and pulling it apart as if to say I think Jones is the best quarterback in the NFL. He's a good quarterback playing pretty well in a pretty shitty situation. That's my opinion.

I asked you a few weeks ago on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being All Pro where you would rank Jones, and you said 8.

So just so we're clear, playing at an 8 isn't near All Pro?

He's nothing special.

In comment 15917763 HomerJones45 said:

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from the Osweiler etc era. It's dividing into haves and have nots like the wr market on money is going to defenders. No one is paying Jones 35 million or even 20 million. Mariota got 2 years at 9 million each. Brisset, who threw for 300 yards and 3 td's in his garbage time on Sunday, didn't get $5M. Geno Smith is getting 3.5M. Trubisky got 7M per year for a 2 year deal. Garappollo is playing for 10M and couldn't find a trade partner with a 25M contract. Carr and Wentz, who both have $25M contracts are both going to end up getting cut this spring in favor of lower cost options. That's Jones' market and his competition. And you can go in the draft and find a qb for cheap. It's not a popularity contest, it's a business, and if you can replace the production in the factory at a lower cost, the business is going to do it.

This is exactly right. There is a pretty large tier of adequate QBs. If you pay big bucks or commit long years to one of them, you're at a big disadvantage. Both against the teams with good QBs and against the teams who are properly paying their adequate QBs.

christian, i honestly don't know why you are hung up on this.

You are repeating what i have said a million times and then asking me if i did in fact say that?

Yes, i did.

Yes, I think Jones is good and will be the franchise QB of the Giants.

What else do you want to ask me?

In comment 15917776 ryanmkeane said:

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christian, i honestly don't know why you are hung up on this. You are repeating what i have said a million times and then asking me if i did in fact say that? Yes, i did. Yes, I think Jones is good and will be the franchise QB of the Giants. What else do you want to ask me?

Do you think Jones is playing near an All Pro level, and how much do you think Jones is worth?

still want to wait until the end of the season to evaluate Jones, but agree with whoever said that is now very difficult because he literally has nothing on offense except Barkley and maybe Slayton. KG has done nothing, and Bellinger and Robinson are out. The OL has also regressed, especially the interior. Jones is often running for his life.

Somebody will make Jones a big offer in the offseason IMO. QBs are in high demand and often as a consequence get overpaid and overdrafted. Many teams will also likely be enamored with his running, attribute any lack of success to our offensive deficiencies, and note that he has dramatically reduced his turnovers. It only takes one team to think like that, and upwards of 12 may be looking for QBs in the offseason.

For that reason, I think the Giants will have to use the FT on Jones if they want to keep him. Whether they should or not is a different decision, and one I can't make right now.

In comment 15917755 Sean said:

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If the Giants fizzle out and go 8-9 and miss the playoffs, I’d be floored if Jones is back at any large number including the tag.

I understand what you are saying, now...

Is it Jones fault that they only have 2 qualified DTs and cannot get to the opposing QB or stop the run?

Is it Jones fault that Slayton is the only "decent" WR now that Robinson blew his knee out?

Is it Jones fault that the #1 CB is out 4-6 weeks and the #2 CB is also injured and the #1 safety effed up his hand?

I won't ask about the revolving door at OL...

If he gets them to the playoffs, he'll command a pretty decent contract. I think it now takes a miracle to make the playoffs.

this is every single week with you guys. he plays well, he's the guy! he plays ok....oh hmmmm maybe we need to see more. he has a bad game....wow he's definitely not the guy!

QBs have good games, they have bad games. Josh Allen has played like shit recently. No, I'm not comparing the two. So don't even go there. But he has been terrible with turnovers. You think Bills fans are saying hmmmm wait a second here?

Just let the season play out and see how he's progressing with this offense instead of this back and forth bullshit every single week.

This is only relevant if this braintrust absolutely decides that Zack is not now, and will not next year be the guy.

If the above were true, DJ makes perfect sense for them. Corey Davis can easily, and Carl Lawson in a calculated gamble, can free up 25 million in 2023 cap space.

In comment 15917771 JoeyBigBlue said:

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With a 1 year 25 mill contract if they can’t get a good prospect in the draft. I’m not ready to commit long term. Second thing is that he won’t accept a 1 year deal.

Not so sure on the second part. I don’t think there’s a team out there willing to give him a a multi year deal at higher than $10-15 million yet. If the Giants offer is one year at $25 million, and the other offers are two years at a comparable total figure he’d probably take the one year deal.

christian - again i don't owe you any explanation as to my opinion, so fucking relax dude.

I said Jones is playing like a good franchise quarterback, and will likely be paid as such. As to whatever "thats worth" i dont know man. Jesus. Contract structures are different throughout the league, it depends on the situation.

In comment 15917745 ajr2456 said:

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In comment 15917736 bw in dc said: Quote: test the market to see his value. That's the right move. What's the downside? If he gets a great deal from another team, do we really feel bad that we are losing this transcendent talent? God, no. This isn't a Patrick Mahomes talent we're talking about here... If this GM/HC can't find a talent to replace Jones they shouldn't be in their respective jobs. Agreed. Give a 1 or 2 year offer at around 10–15 million and let him test the market. If he finds something better so be it.

I would offer no more than one year. But unless Jones really kills it the rest of the way, I'd rather just cut the cord and start a new era at QB.

It's worth the stretch and risk letting another team sign Jones. His skills are very replaceable.

A lot of sentimentality keeps creeping in around here again...

makes a lot of sense. Otherwise, I think 2 years/50M/40M guaranteed might get it done. I don't think they want to commit to more than two years. I think he's earned two years. With a good o-line, he might turn out to be a pretty darn good QB. With a little less bad OL this year he's doing better, but there's still room for improvement.

Unless he plays himself into something more. But I don't see who they could bring in next year who's better.

If they don't win another game this year, they're picking in the middle of the round (and if they win it gets lower). Not sure there's a QB in this draft to give away a boatload of picks for when there's still so much to fix.

Further, WHOEVER is back there isn't going to fare any better until they upgrade the interior OL, and address the lack of WR talent.

Agreed. Pats history also doesn’t have any precedent for a QB resigning on a one year deal with their team after not having the option picked up. Also can’t name one who hasn’t had the option picked up who has gone on to have success as a starter.

In comment 15917679 joeinpa said:

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In comment 15917675 Essex said: Quote: situations has to work for the Panthers. I mean it’s hard to win drop back situations when you are on your back. I am not a huge Jones fan and think the bridge is where to go if there is interest on both sides, but that statement was plain ignorant. Jordan is probably talking to the coffee boy in some group I was thinking the same things. Daniel seems capable of making all the throws. The lack of production from the pocket seems more on an inability to consistently create a pocket.

I also believe that he doesn’t see the field/reads when he drops back. While on the run the field opens up for him. Easier adjustments while on the move.

In comment 15917787 ryanmkeane said:

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christian - again i don't owe you any explanation as to my opinion, so fucking relax dude. I said Jones is playing like a good franchise quarterback, and will likely be paid as such. As to whatever "thats worth" i dont know man. Jesus. Contract structures are different throughout the league, it depends on the situation.

I think just by reading these posts, one of us needs to relax, and per usual it's you little buddy.

You came on this thread and offered an opinion about the years and dollars you would have offered him.

And now when someone asks you what years and dollars you think he's worth the cat's got your brain?

Maybe this is a topic you're actually not interesting in debating and should avoid then?

The franchise tag must be reserved for Barkley. Simply can't pay him Zeke Elliott money which is what he will expect. And can't let him simply walk out the door without getting McCaffrey-like compensation.

This is what the Franchise Tag is there for. To protect teams from losing top tier assets when they are unable to reach a sensible agreement. Any GM worth his salt knows this. It is not there to overpay for average or below average assets, which is a path to nowhere in both cap management and team morale, not dissimilar to overpaying guys like Golladay and Williams... I can't even begin to fathom what Barkley must think every time he looks at Golladay...

It’s a near formality that Barkley gets tagged

according to overthecap website. I would offer Jones a multi-year deal at a reasonable cost and if he rejects it, franchise him and draft or trade for a quarterback in 2024. Jones is more valuable than Barkley. Barkley can be replaced by a second or third round running back. The Giants need a better O line and better receivers far more than they need Barkley. The Lions game demonstrated that.

a bridge. It probably makes little sense if Tannenbaum is right and there are 12 teams that need a QB for Jones to agree to a bridge. So, when two sides do not have an common purpose it is hard to make a deal unless we are willing to sign Barkley long term and franchise Jones, which would be horrible mistakes in my mind.

In comment 15917804 GeofromNJ said:

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according to overthecap website. I would offer Jones a multi-year deal at a reasonable cost and if he rejects it, franchise him and draft or trade for a quarterback in 2024. Jones is more valuable than Barkley. Barkley can be replaced by a second or third round running back. The Giants need a better O line and better receivers far more than they need Barkley. The Lions game demonstrated that.

Well it’s true they can get production elsewhere for less, letting Barkley walk for nothing would be rough. Even if they don’t plan to keep Barkley, they’ll tag him and trade him for more assets.

In comment 15917804 GeofromNJ said:

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Jones is more valuable than Barkley.

I think that's highly debatable.

Really interesting to see what they do with Jones. He's playing well this year and under difficult circumstances. I just don't see the special magic that a QB needs to win the big games. It'd be hard to imagine him making that leap, to be honest, even with more talented skill position players around him.

In comment 15917804 GeofromNJ said:

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according to overthecap website. I would offer Jones a multi-year deal at a reasonable cost and if he rejects it, franchise him and draft or trade for a quarterback in 2024. Jones is more valuable than Barkley. Barkley can be replaced by a second or third round running back. The Giants need a better O line and better receivers far more than they need Barkley. The Lions game demonstrated that.

Yes, $59 mill to start. The will need to go after Thomas and DLaw. Probably Julian Love also.

Once Golladay is let go, they will have a bit more.

Something will need to be done with LW's contract.

good post, GDunk, lays parameters out rationally

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There are just too many unknowns to say definitively that Jones can’t succeed under normal circumstances. And I’ve been really skeptical of Jones since 2020, but even I can see that.

Thanks for that, c, I've been thinking that I am in a fast dwindling group that still hangs on to a notion that the obstacles to a or any QB performing well and/or to his capabilities on the NYG remains a factor in this decision making. It's made abundantly clear here by the eternal and vociferous group that Jones has 'outplayed' those questions, i.e., that his underperformance and low ceiling as a QB in their eyes transcends any set of factors surrounding his play. I remain a bit challenged in thinking those factors are fully discounted.

Jones has played very well in a scaled down offense, where he has been handled with kid gloves in the passing game. Daboll has deployed him effectively using his biggest strength, running the football. He's still largely ineffective from the pocket and creating off script in the passing game. We've seen this year, when he needs to throw the ball to win, it doesn't happen.

Simply put, this isn't a qb you hand 30mm a year to and saddle your team in a cap situation with - at best - a bottom half of the league starter. I understand that he is very likely the Giants best option for the coming season and possibly the following season. If he signs on a shorter term, reasonable deal that is likely the best approach.

In comment 15917824 lax counsel said:

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...... We've seen this year, when he needs to throw the ball to win, it doesn't happen.

I guess you missed the 5 come from behind wins he has - one with Barkley in the locker room with a shoulder injury?

In comment 15917764 ryanmkeane said:

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You guys fighting over 5M here or there makes no difference to this discussion.

Since when did $5M of annual cap space become a rounding error?

If you took a minimum salary level player and offered him $6M a year instead, wouldn't you agree that would be egregious as an overpay? It's the same amount of money being allocated to the overpay, though, as it is when you act like +/- $5M AAV on DJ is just an oh-by-the-way variance.

If we had $5M add'l space this year, we wouldn't have to contemplate restructuring dead weight like Golladay just to make ends meet this season.

These conversations would be a lot more productive if you admitted what you don't know instead of pretending like it's irrelevant just because your tiny little brain doesn't comprehend it.

but I don't think there's much difference to paying Jones $25m a year or $30m a year. If you are paying him either it means you believe in him and plan to build around him. If he signs a deal for way under that you can pretty much see what the goals and expectations are which would primarily be buying time.

In comment 15917824 lax counsel said:

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Jones has played very well in a scaled down offense, where he has been handled with kid gloves in the passing game. Daboll has deployed him effectively using his biggest strength, running the football. He's still largely ineffective from the pocket and creating off script in the passing game. We've seen this year, when he needs to throw the ball to win, it doesn't happen. Simply put, this isn't a qb you hand 30mm a year to and saddle your team in a cap situation with - at best - a bottom half of the league starter. I understand that he is very likely the Giants best option for the coming season and possibly the following season. If he signs on a shorter term, reasonable deal that is likely the best approach.

Yes. You simply don't build around this kind of QB. When you open up the offense he can not win from the pocket on a consistent basis.

In comment 15917848 UConn4523 said:

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but I don't think there's much difference to paying Jones $25m a year or $30m a year. If you are paying him either it means you believe in him and plan to build around him. If he signs a deal for way under that you can pretty much see what the goals and expectations are which would primarily be buying time.

I see your point, but I would counter that $5M in cap space matters regardless of whether you're overpaying a $25M guy by $5M or whether you're overpaying a $1M guy by $5M. The overall cap scenario is measured in the aggregate, so the overpay is equally wasteful either way. The only thing favorable about the $5M overpay on the $25M player (vs. on the $1M player) is that it's less of an indictment of the GM's scouting prowess when it comes to pricing player values.

I'd even go a step further and ask if this Raanan piece is state media to begin with. It sure sounds like a pretty effective way for JS & co to frame the conversation around the value they have on DJ, if where they have him is in the journeyman/bridge tier (or slightly above).

deal for this very reason. Nice hedge on DJ. Doesn't mean DJ doesn't get resigned, but the Giants have their plan B or is that plan A?

If they are 5M apart negotiations, it matters how much AAV we're talking.

20M over the life of a 100M deal is a bigger problem than on a 200M.

But that's a secondary issue. The real question is whether Jones is a top tier QB. Because if he is, there's no chance in hell Team Jones is accepting 25M AAV.

If Jones is a top tier QB Team Jones is looking for 40M.

This is simple: do you believe Daniel Jones is as good as Derek Carr?

concerned about regarding Jones. Giants have done a great job positioning the team to be in a position to play for something this last 7. This is the best possible outcome and now the real evaluation for Jones begins. For me it is also a big test for BD.

They have high pressure meaningful games is this is where QB's show if they have it or not. The QBGC can save the "off schedule", "arm talent", "elevate" discussions for next years draft. Most of that crew wanted to draft Willis at pick 5.

5 division games.

Great opportunity here for Jones. I am hoping both Bellinger and Neal are back quickly to give him the best chance but I think it will be pretty clear by seasons end what JS should be doing moving forward.

pay that man pay that man his money

That we probably have a good idea of what they’re leaning toward as of today, which would be a one year deal - otherwise they would have approached him about an extension when they did Barkley and Love.

The rest of the season is going to decide how much that one year deal is worth, or if it turns into a long term deal.

And neither should get anything close to $40M

In comment 15917900 ajr2456 said:

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That we probably have a good idea of what they’re leaning toward as of today, which would be a one year deal - otherwise they would have approached him about an extension when they did Barkley and Love. The rest of the season is going to decide how much that one year deal is worth, or if it turns into a long term deal.

I agree. I also think it's important to remember the max that one year deal will be is about 31M, which will represent ~13.5% of the salary cap.

The 30M figure seems to be freaking everyone out, even those fans who think he's awesome. But it's just not that much money now.

In comment 15917909 Jerry in_DC said:

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And neither should get anything close to $40M

Be that as it may nine quarterbacks in the NFL have an AAV of 40M -- and we're about to see three more, in Burrows, Herbert, and Hurts.

If Jones is who his big supporters think he is, they should be prepared to say he deserves 40M. That's the point I'm getting at.

In comment 15917862 Gatorade Dunk said:

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In comment 15917848 UConn4523 said: Quote: but I don't think there's much difference to paying Jones $25m a year or $30m a year. If you are paying him either it means you believe in him and plan to build around him. If he signs a deal for way under that you can pretty much see what the goals and expectations are which would primarily be buying time. I see your point, but I would counter that $5M in cap space matters regardless of whether you're overpaying a $25M guy by $5M or whether you're overpaying a $1M guy by $5M. The overall cap scenario is measured in the aggregate, so the overpay is equally wasteful either way. The only thing favorable about the $5M overpay on the $25M player (vs. on the $1M player) is that it's less of an indictment of the GM's scouting prowess when it comes to pricing player values. I'd even go a step further and ask if this Raanan piece is state media to begin with. It sure sounds like a pretty effective way for JS & co to frame the conversation around the value they have on DJ, if where they have him is in the journeyman/bridge tier (or slightly above).

Sure, from a cap only standpoint more is always more, savings is always savings. But I think what most people are getting at is that there's a clear starter, future QB contract and there's what's under it. And if the Giants are offering/giving Jones a longterm deal then the $5m variance is fairly insignificant (ie if he's your guy you are building your team around, the $5m shouldn't matter). I'm not saying you just give him $30m, but either figure puts him in that same boat and I have no real qualm with either figure if they like him. Now $40m+ is a different ball game both in cap hit and expected output from the player, obvious hard no on that one.

hard to compare the two but I suspect Jones means more to the Giants than Carr to the Raiders, for whatever that's worth. It goes right back to the same old questions though - how much better would Jones be throwing to a Devante Adams or a Waller, etc. Better for sure, but I don't know how much - hopefully Schoen does.

In comment 15917899 gtt350 said:

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pay that man pay that man his money

No, he's not. He's our best QB.

The best players on offense are Thomas and Barkley.

Daniel Jones is every bit as good or better than Derek Carr. Carr got 3 years about 40M per.

Now - that doesn't mean that Jones will get as much as that or more than that. Just because the Raiders GM paid Carr that doesn't mean Schoen is going to say ok wow we need to go at least that amount.

Dak Prescott got 4 years 40M per. Jones is as good as Prescott in my view. Put Jones on the Cowboys and they are every bit as good.

Again, doesn't mean Schoen is going to offer that. But he's worth that contract.

In comment 15917913 christian said:

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In comment 15917900 ajr2456 said: Quote: That we probably have a good idea of what they’re leaning toward as of today, which would be a one year deal - otherwise they would have approached him about an extension when they did Barkley and Love. The rest of the season is going to decide how much that one year deal is worth, or if it turns into a long term deal. I agree. I also think it's important to remember the max that one year deal will be is about 31M, which will represent ~13.5% of the salary cap. The 30M figure seems to be freaking everyone out, even those fans who think he's awesome. But it's just not that much money now.

Do you pay $30M to a bridge QB? It sounds like paying a ton of money to a position to still be looking to fill the position. Bad business.

Look what Cooper Rush did with Dallas while Dak is out. Why would Schoen pay $30M to be a bridge?

In comment 15917918 christian said:

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In comment 15917909 Jerry in_DC said: Quote: And neither should get anything close to $40M Be that as it may nine quarterbacks in the NFL have an AAV of 40M -- and we're about to see three more, in Burrows, Herbert, and Hurts. If Jones is who his big supporters think he is, they should be prepared to say he deserves 40M. That's the point I'm getting at.

I think you can be a Jones supporter and not say he should be paid 40M. My guess is a majority of Jones supporters don't think he should get 40M. Maybe sometime in the future he'll show he deserves that, but not next yr.

In comment 15917872 christian said:

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This is simple: do you believe Daniel Jones is as good as Derek Carr?

I don't - no.

But I think the question needs to be this: do you feel great that Jones is the solution to lead this team deep into contention?

IMV, if you can't get there intellectually, we are wasting time as an organization.

In comment 15917925 UConn4523 said:

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hard to compare the two but I suspect Jones means more to the Giants than Carr to the Raiders, for whatever that's worth. It goes right back to the same old questions though - how much better would Jones be throwing to a Devante Adams or a Waller, etc. Better for sure, but I don't know how much - hopefully Schoen does.

Yeah, the market says Carr is worth 40M a year. And if the Raiders blow it up and cut Carr, I bet he'd get about the same on the open market.

I think it's weird when fans like ryanmkeane insist Jones is a top tier QB, but can't manage to type the simple keystrokes He deserves 40M a year.

christian - Jones is the franchise QB. Whatever Schoen ends up paying him, i don't want to say "who cares" but they'll have to figure that out and continue to build the roster around him. Is he going to offer him 40M a year? No, he probably won't.

But as I said before, if Jones gets a 30M offer from the Giants and a 37M a year offer from some other team, he's not going to leave. The guaranteed money will be somewhat similar anyway.

In comment 15917856 Producer said:

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Yes. You simply don't build around this kind of QB. When you open up the offense he can not win from the pocket on a consistent basis.

LOL - what weapons do they have to "open up the offense"? Especially now that Wandale is out.

Sills? James? Jonhson?

LOLOLOLOL...

In comment 15917934 Dr. D said:

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If Jones is who his big supporters think he is, they should be prepared to say he deserves 40M. That's the point I'm getting at. I think you can be a Jones supporter and not say he should be paid 40M. My guess is a majority of Jones supporters don't think he should get 40M. Maybe sometime in the future he'll show he deserves that, but not next yr.

There's a very good chance 12 quarterbacks in the NFL make 40M + AAV next year.

Is Jones a top third QB in the NFL?

christian - you and ajr have an obsession with trying to get me to say something that you want to hear.

I don't know how many times I can say this, maybe a hundred at this point? Jones is worth whatever the Giants pay him because he'll be the franchise QB that leads the team. If that's 35M...40M....30M...i really dont give a shit to be honest.

You guys did this same thing with Leonard Williams. You didn't think he was worth that amount per year because you thought it was however much less because of the market. Well as it turns out he's worth that amount.

In comment 15917939 ryanmkeane said:

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christian - Jones is the franchise QB. Whatever Schoen ends up paying him, i don't want to say "who cares" but they'll have to figure that out and continue to build the roster around him. Is he going to offer him 40M a year? No, he probably won't. But as I said before, if Jones gets a 30M offer from the Giants and a 37M a year offer from some other team, he's not going to leave. The guaranteed money will be somewhat similar anyway.

If another team offers nearly 20% more in AAV, why would the guaranteed money be similar. That makes no sense.

christian, you do understand that people earn their contracts based on future performance and projection too correct?

In comment 15917945 ryanmkeane said:

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I don't know how many times I can say this, maybe a hundred at this point? Jones is worth whatever the Giants pay him because he'll be the franchise QB that leads the team. If that's 35M...40M....30M...i really dont give a shit to be honest.

OK, cool. You don't give a shit. That's all you had to say a million threads ago little buddy.

In comment 15917782 ryanmkeane said:

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this is every single week with you guys. he plays well, he's the guy! he plays ok....oh hmmmm maybe we need to see more. he has a bad game....wow he's definitely not the guy! QBs have good games, they have bad games. Josh Allen has played like shit recently. No, I'm not comparing the two. So don't even go there. But he has been terrible with turnovers. You think Bills fans are saying hmmmm wait a second here? It s not every game, it the every play. Just let the season play out and see how he's progressing with this offense instead of this back and forth bullshit every single week.

Do you want to repeat the Raiders' mistake with Daniel Jones.

In comment 15917946 christian said:

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If another team offers nearly 20% more in AAV, why would the guaranteed money be similar. That makes no sense.

It makes no sense? It happens all the time. You are just arguing for arguing sake now.

As I said, Jones will get paid and he's not leaving the Giants for some other stupid team unless said team does something like offer him Mahomes level money which is not happening obviously.

We can talk about this forever but it will end up being the same conclusion. Schoen will work out the financials just fine, however many years it ends up being.

I wouldn't be shocked if they franchised him. Get more support and another year in the system and be even more comfortable with the decision then. You'd have to pay him more at that time but if that helps you sleep better at night that he's only on a 1 year deal, that's fine.

christian, i'm saying i don't give a shit whether it is 30M or 40M. That makes no difference to me.

My gut is that there is no way I would pay him $20M, let alone the $35M tag or a deal that averages anything close to that $35M number. On the flip side, I can see the market falling somewhere in between those numbers just because so many teams need a QB and there are only so many to go around.

Part of the problem is if we don't re-sign him, we won't have a strong enough pick for a top QB. Perhaps our new regime can find an option for bottom of the round or 2nd round. But, more importantly, with the Toney trade, spate of injuries, and Golladay a bust, we will more likely need to go WR in round 1.

The other point to go back and forth on is really what we have in Jones. He absolutely has improved. But, the starting point was so low, I'm not sure where that places him. I think he is outside the top 12 in the league. While a rookie could set them back a bit, I think the right rookie can perform similarly to Jones in this offense, since Jones is not being asked to win games with his arm. I think Sunday showed a little bit why. He is still a good QB and one who can win in the right situation. But, my gut tells me he just isn't a guy who is going to take over a game when they need to throw. I think there is a reason Daboll and Kafka pull in the reins on the passing game that is not isolated to the WR or OL.

I've said all along, I wouldn't mind re-signing him, but not at the market rate. I would like to see a more reasonable 2 or 3 year deal, with a decent amount guaranteed, but overall average of the $15M/per range, plus incentives. I don't think he'll sign that.

Ironically, this could be the offseason that we finally seem to finish shoring up the OL and really address WR, but end up with no QB.

In comment 15917937 christian said:

Quote:

In comment 15917925 UConn4523 said: Quote: hard to compare the two but I suspect Jones means more to the Giants than Carr to the Raiders, for whatever that's worth. It goes right back to the same old questions though - how much better would Jones be throwing to a Devante Adams or a Waller, etc. Better for sure, but I don't know how much - hopefully Schoen does. Yeah, the market says Carr is worth 40M a year. And if the Raiders blow it up and cut Carr, I bet he'd get about the same on the open market. I think it's weird when fans like ryanmkeane insist Jones is a top tier QB, but can't manage to type the simple keystrokes He deserves 40M a year.

Can't comment on other poster's POV's but everything so far with Jones has been atypical so I can actually see an atypical contract being signed by him either here or somewhere else. I also think contracts to Watson, Rodgers, Wilson, Murray, Dak, etc might finally be showing enough data to correct the QB market a bit. I think the sure fire stud sub-30 QB's are going to get north of $40m per year but it wouldn't shock me at all to see the market regress (as a % to the cap) for those QB's that don't meet at that level.

In sum, I can very much see the NFL foregoing giving the next guy up a market rate contract at QB unless they are elite, and young.

Marcus Mariota has 13 passing TDs. Brissett has 11.

Burrow has 22, Allen 21.

There are just two starting QBs who have single-digit (fewer than 10) passing touchdowns on the year: Daniel Jones (9) and Russell Wilson (7).

I don't see how they can justify paying Jones anywhere near $25 mil per, or even 15-20 tbh, when he is producing so little in the passing game.

You can easily get his production or better from a marginal journeyman-type player.

I'm beyond sick of the injury/rest of the roster excuses.

Jones is arguably the worst quarterback in the division, and yes, I'm putting him behind Taylor Heinicke.

For the amount of money being talked about ($20 mil - $35 mil) they should move on no question.

In comment 15917970 japanhead said:

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Jones is arguably the worst quarterback in the division, and yes, I'm putting him behind Taylor Heinicke. For the amount of money being talked about ($20 mil - $35 mil) they should move on no question.

Something tells me you'll be regretting that statement after our two games against Washington.

I personally believe after you get past the first 7 or 8 QBs (Mahomes, Allen, Burrows, Brady, Rodgers, Herbert, Lamar, maybe 1 other) then the next 10-12 are all pretty much the same. We can argue if Hurts for example should be in there, but then I'd argue that Brady is over the hill and should be out). So your 8 may be different but you get the point.

Having said that I see no difference on the Giants between having Cousin, Tannehill, Carr, Jones, Tua, Murray, Lawrence, Jimmy G, etc. Each has strengths and weaknesses, and we'd be back in the mode of creating an offense to support Murrays running (or putting in a pocket passing attack because Cousins can't run).

This is the dilema. If you don't have on of the top guys you will be in this mode, and its hard getting one of the top guys. So most teams build around what they have.

As an aside I still hold out hope for Lawrence, I think he can be like Herbert eventually.

In comment 15917954 ryanmkeane said:

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In comment 15917946 christian said: Quote: If another team offers nearly 20% more in AAV, why would the guaranteed money be similar. That makes no sense. It makes no sense? It happens all the time. You are just arguing for arguing sake now. As I said, Jones will get paid and he's not leaving the Giants for some other stupid team unless said team does something like offer him Mahomes level money which is not happening obviously. We can talk about this forever but it will end up being the same conclusion. Schoen will work out the financials just fine, however many years it ends up being. I wouldn't be shocked if they franchised him. Get more support and another year in the system and be even more comfortable with the decision then. You'd have to pay him more at that time but if that helps you sleep better at night that he's only on a 1 year deal, that's fine.

That's two absolute assertions by you. Both are far from absolutely certain.

1. It is not clear Jones is getting mega dollars. That's the whole point of the article. There are execs saying you can't build around Jones.
2. It's not clear Jones won't go to another team. He won't take less to stay here. That's a fantasy. Football is a business. And this might be Jones' one shot at a big pay day.

Would Jones sign a 2yr/$15MM contract, unless that's the best offer he got. And if that's the best offer he gets, that tells you what the GMs as a whole think about him.

And you can put the thought of a hometown discount out of your head. The only time players, in any sport, are taking discounts is in extensions or maybe final contracts before retiring. Getting to FA means taking the best offer, and that's what DJs agent and the PA are going to push for.

In comment 15917976 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

In comment 15917970 japanhead said: Quote: Jones is arguably the worst quarterback in the division, and yes, I'm putting him behind Taylor Heinicke. For the amount of money being talked about ($20 mil - $35 mil) they should move on no question. Something tells me you'll be regretting that statement after our two games against Washington.

Heinicke has done well against the Giants and they have real WRs..

In comment 15917997 Scooter185 said:

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Would Jones sign a 2yr/$15MM contract, unless that's the best offer he got. And if that's the best offer he gets, that tells you what the GMs as a whole think about him. And you can put the thought of a hometown discount out of your head. The only time players, in any sport, are taking discounts is in extensions or maybe final contracts before retiring. Getting to FA means taking the best offer, and that's what DJs agent and the PA are going to push for.

2 years @ $15M PER. Of the $30M, guarantee most of it ($20M+) to entice him. I'm not saying he would take it. But, that's where I think he belongs.

There is no way I would guarantee $35M for another season of can Jones prove himself. They either have to commit to him based on the expectation that they get a couple of good WRs and the OL rounds into place with Gates back at OC and the rookies continuing to improve, OR, they say it's time to move on and think they can get similar production from a well scouted rookie or a cheaper FA.

He’s worth right now. Nobody is going to hold it against you if you’re off $5 million. What would you pay Daniel Jones right now?

Instead you’ll do what you always do, say let it play out and then try to chest pump around on a victory lap about being right.

In comment 15917804 GeofromNJ said:

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according to overthecap website. I would offer Jones a multi-year deal at a reasonable cost and if he rejects it, franchise him and draft or trade for a quarterback in 2024. Jones is more valuable than Barkley. Barkley can be replaced by a second or third round running back. The Giants need a better O line and better receivers far more than they need Barkley. The Lions game demonstrated that.

A top 3 running back in the NFL is easily replaced, but a QB that isn't in the top 20 in any meaningful passing stat is a must keep because the Giants can't replace him?

This fanbase and its love for DJ is just silly!

ajr, i already answered this question, are you reading this thread at all? I would pay him 40M a year. Do you want me to say it again one more time? Fuck dude.

I'd rather use that money to build a better team in other areas and roll with a rookie QB.

What if Garoppolo is available? A player who Daboll knows. We don’t know what veteran QB’s may be available that Schoen/Daboll view as an upgrade.

It’s fascinating. I don’t get the “let it play out crowd”. That seems like denial to me. The fact is two of the most important offensive pieces on the team are pending free agents with a 7-3 team.

In comment 15918025 bw in dc said:

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I'd rather use that money to build a better team in other areas and roll with a rookie QB.

Bingo. $30M for Jones just to be a bridge QB? That’s absurd.

In comment 15918023 ryanmkeane said:

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ajr, i already answered this question, are you reading this thread at all? I would pay him 40M a year. Do you want me to say it again one more time? Fuck dude.

No you said you don’t care what the numbers is, you’re fine with what ever the Giants pay him even if it’s 40. That’s hedging. That’s fine, but then you shouldn’t be getting so worked about people having varying opinions week to week on what they’d pay Jones.

In comment 15918028 Sean said:

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What if Garoppolo is available? A player who Daboll knows. We don’t know what veteran QB’s may be available that Schoen/Daboll view as an upgrade. It’s fascinating. I don’t get the “let it play out crowd”. That seems like denial to me. The fact is two of the most important offensive pieces on the team are pending free agents with a 7-3 team.

I'd take Garoppolo easily.

In comment 15917918 christian said:

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In comment 15917909 Jerry in_DC said: Quote: And neither should get anything close to $40M Be that as it may nine quarterbacks in the NFL have an AAV of 40M -- and we're about to see three more, in Burrows, Herbert, and Hurts. If Jones is who his big supporters think he is, they should be prepared to say he deserves 40M. That's the point I'm getting at.

In what world is Jones even close to the same to Burrow, Herbert, and even Hurts in production? The numbers being thrown around for DJs level of production are insane. If this team was 4-6, with DJs level of production, nobody would want to keep him...but because the defense and run game have won games, people act like DJ is a must keep. He's average, at best, and he's not the main reason we're a winning team.

In comment 15918023 ryanmkeane said:

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ajr, i already answered this question, are you reading this thread at all? I would pay him 40M a year. Do you want me to say it again one more time? Fuck dude.

You'd pay Jones 40mil a year? Seriously?

The guy has never sniffed a winning record and looked like crap against the worst passing defense in football?

Jones is underperforming relative to never-was guys like Marcus Mariota and has arguably played worse than Heinicke, who started the season as a backup.

Justin Fields has more passing TDs than Jones. Shit, he has almost twice as many rush TDs.

Over the last 3.5 seasons, by any measure-- wins, yards, TDs, whatever you want to look at-- Jones has been a bottom 5 quarterback, if not bottom 3.

So you would rush to pay him 40 mil a year and build out the WR, OL, TE, and ILB units on a low budget?

And then rush to be his gallant defender when he throws 0.7 TDs a game next season like he has the last 2 and a half seasons?

Laughable man! HA-HA!

He was looking a little better than last year during the 6-1 stretch, but these last three games he's shown that he's pretty much the same guy he's been. No one should pay that guy 40 million a year, or even half that tbh.

You're silly.

In comment 15917978 PatersonPlank said:

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I personally believe after you get past the first 7 or 8 QBs (Mahomes, Allen, Burrows, Brady, Rodgers, Herbert, Lamar, maybe 1 other) then the next 10-12 are all pretty much the same. We can argue if Hurts for example should be in there, but then I'd argue that Brady is over the hill and should be out). So your 8 may be different but you get the point. Having said that I see no difference on the Giants between having Cousin, Tannehill, Carr, Jones, Tua, Murray, Lawrence, Jimmy G, etc. Each has strengths and weaknesses, and we'd be back in the mode of creating an offense to support Murrays running (or putting in a pocket passing attack because Cousins can't run). This is the dilema. If you don't have on of the top guys you will be in this mode, and its hard getting one of the top guys. So most teams build around what they have. As an aside I still hold out hope for Lawrence, I think he can be like Herbert eventually.

Those top 8 QBs are winning 100% of the Super Bowls. So, you continue to try to find a SB caliber QB, or you're playing for a playoff spot, nothing more.

If you asked the Raiders, Cardinals, and Titans if they'd sign their guys all over again, they'd all say no. So, why should the Giants be any different?

Jones isn't ever leading a franchise to a SB win, so move on. There's nothing gained by being the Cardinals or Raiders. You're either a true SB contender, or you're not...that has to be the goal.

Hasn’t been better than Jones yet this year.

In comment 15918047 japanhead said:

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In comment 15918023 ryanmkeane said: Quote: ajr, i already answered this question, are you reading this thread at all? I would pay him 40M a year. Do you want me to say it again one more time? Fuck dude. You'd pay Jones 40mil a year? Seriously? The guy has never sniffed a winning record and looked like crap against the worst passing defense in football? Jones is underperforming relative to never-was guys like Marcus Mariota and has arguably played worse than Heinicke, who started the season as a backup. Justin Fields has more passing TDs than Jones. Shit, he has almost twice as many rush TDs. Over the last 3.5 seasons, by any measure-- wins, yards, TDs, whatever you want to look at-- Jones has been a bottom 5 quarterback, if not bottom 3. So you would rush to pay him 40 mil a year and build out the WR, OL, TE, and ILB units on a low budget? And then rush to be his gallant defender when he throws 0.7 TDs a game next season like he has the last 2 and a half seasons? Laughable man! HA-HA! He was looking a little better than last year during the 6-1 stretch, but these last three games he's shown that he's pretty much the same guy he's been. No one should pay that guy 40 million a year, or even half that tbh. You're silly.

Well said. It's as though there is no logic. They just want Jones and will settle for total mediocrity.

but I think Schoen will have a number for Jones he wont go past. Is it 25M, 30M who knows. At that point we'll see what Jones wants to do. I don't think we are seeing a 100% have to lock him up conversation because I think it would be done by now (and I think rules out 40M+). I like Jones, I do but he could be Salieri to our potential Mozart.

"Jones has never sniffed a winning record" well I guess if you aren't counting the games he is playing in the current season? Are you counting those?

In comment 15917954 ryanmkeane said:

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As I said, Jones will get paid and he's not leaving the Giants for some other stupid team unless said team does something like offer him Mahomes level money which is not happening obviously.

This reads like it was written by a middle school student: "he's not leaving the Giants for some other stupid team"

In comment 15918023 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

ajr, i already answered this question, are you reading this thread at all? I would pay him 40M a year. Do you want me to say it again one more time? Fuck dude.

You'd pay him $40M? You want something like 30% of the cap on Jones and Williams, when Dexter needs to be re-signed, they have to think about Love, potentially need a FA OL, etc.

will he sign first? If so that should give you a good idea of what to expect for Jones in regards to actual years and dollars. All the other comps won’t matter at that point.

In comment 15918062 ryanmkeane said:

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"Jones has never sniffed a winning record" well I guess if you aren't counting the games he is playing in the current season? Are you counting those?

I'm talking about completed seasons obviously, you goon.

But, go ahead and add up his W/L total for 3.5 years and tell me what you come up with.

Or perhaps you would like to address any substantive point in my post?

Like Jones being one of the least productive starters in the league over his NFL career up through 2022 week 11, and that paying 40 million a year for that kind of production is lunacy?

In comment 15918049 GMen72 said:

Quote:

In comment 15917978 PatersonPlank said: Quote: I personally believe after you get past the first 7 or 8 QBs (Mahomes, Allen, Burrows, Brady, Rodgers, Herbert, Lamar, maybe 1 other) then the next 10-12 are all pretty much the same. We can argue if Hurts for example should be in there, but then I'd argue that Brady is over the hill and should be out). So your 8 may be different but you get the point. Having said that I see no difference on the Giants between having Cousin, Tannehill, Carr, Jones, Tua, Murray, Lawrence, Jimmy G, etc. Each has strengths and weaknesses, and we'd be back in the mode of creating an offense to support Murrays running (or putting in a pocket passing attack because Cousins can't run). This is the dilema. If you don't have on of the top guys you will be in this mode, and its hard getting one of the top guys. So most teams build around what they have. As an aside I still hold out hope for Lawrence, I think he can be like Herbert eventually. Those top 8 QBs are winning 100% of the Super Bowls. So, you continue to try to find a SB caliber QB, or you're playing for a playoff spot, nothing more. If you asked the Raiders, Cardinals, and Titans if they'd sign their guys all over again, they'd all say no. So, why should the Giants be any different? Jones isn't ever leading a franchise to a SB win, so move on. There's nothing gained by being the Cardinals or Raiders. You're either a true SB contender, or you're not...that has to be the goal.

Not saying we should, I believe we are agreeing here. Sure if you look at the Carrs/Jones/Tannehills of the world you will see some with better stats than the others, but I would submit it has to do with the quality of the surrounding team. All these guys are in a sense managing the game, not really driving it like Mahomes. Give them a top supporting cast and they can get the job done.

So I would look around and see who is the best deal, and also draft a QB you like to try and "hit the lottery". If thats Jones fine, if its Carr fine, if its xxxx fine

In comment 15918007 Matt M. said:

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In comment 15917997 Scooter185 said: Quote: Would Jones sign a 2yr/$15MM contract, unless that's the best offer he got. And if that's the best offer he gets, that tells you what the GMs as a whole think about him. And you can put the thought of a hometown discount out of your head. The only time players, in any sport, are taking discounts is in extensions or maybe final contracts before retiring. Getting to FA means taking the best offer, and that's what DJs agent and the PA are going to push for. 2 years @ $15M PER. Of the $30M, guarantee most of it ($20M+) to entice him. I'm not saying he would take it. But, that's where I think he belongs.

That's fair, but again that's kind of contract indicates he's not a franchise guy and why not start over?

Yes they could end up drafting a worse QB, but for the sake of argument let's say they drafted a clone of Jones, the economics make that a better play than giving him a 2nd contract

The only question is when is the future, and do they offer Jones a deal beyond this season based on him being the best bridge option for 2023. I really don't expect NYG to FT Jones. If they really feel he's worth the FT, then an extension should be completed.

In comment 15918096 JonC said:

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The only question is when is the future, and do they offer Jones a deal beyond this season based on him being the best bridge option for 2023. I really don't expect NYG to FT Jones. If they really feel he's worth the FT, then an extension should be completed.

Exactly. If he’s worth $30M then he’s worth a long term deal. Otherwise you’re paying for a position that you still need at an absurd cost.

I cannot wrap my head around. And I think Jones has shown decent development in some areas this season, but nowhere near enough to offer up that.

And other teams previously making contract mistakes with their respective middle tier QBs doesn't mean Schoen should follow suit.

Realize the roster still has a long way to go, and hope Schoen/Daboll keep rebuilding it in a smart fashion.

As you know I’m a Jones supporter but I don’t pay him what Kyler makes.

In comment 15918096 JonC said:

Quote:

The only question is when is the future, and do they offer Jones a deal beyond this season based on him being the best bridge option for 2023. I really don't expect NYG to FT Jones. If they really feel he's worth the FT, then an extension should be completed.

Are you sure that bridge isn't named Tyrod Taylor?

In comment 15918036 GMen72 said:

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In comment 15917918 christian said: Quote: In comment 15917909 Jerry in_DC said: Quote: And neither should get anything close to $40M Be that as it may nine quarterbacks in the NFL have an AAV of 40M -- and we're about to see three more, in Burrows, Herbert, and Hurts. If Jones is who his big supporters think he is, they should be prepared to say he deserves 40M. That's the point I'm getting at. In what world is Jones even close to the same to Burrow, Herbert, and even Hurts in production? The numbers being thrown around for DJs level of production are insane. If this team was 4-6, with DJs level of production, nobody would want to keep him...but because the defense and run game have won games, people act like DJ is a must keep. He's average, at best, and he's not the main reason we're a winning team.

In the total QBR world.

Say the Colts or the Saints or the Bucs. You're getting a new QB and paying him 4 years $120 M....and its Daniel Jones. You've seen him a bit, looked like he was pretty mediocre. Never heard any impartial analyst say he was particularly good. You think you might be missing something so you look up his stats...and it confirms that he's basically 25th in the league every year in every stat.

It would be a riot. This guy? Are you fing kidding me?

Bear in mind, other fans have not been hammered with the Giants PR that Jones is the hardest worker since Thomas Edison of Jesus Christ.

I know fans don't make the calls, but you have to take yourself outside the Giants bubble to look at this stuff. The idea that Jones is valued at $30 M is complete insanity. And if we pay him that much, we are putting ourselves at a massive disadvantage against the rest of the league.

In comment 15918130 Jerry in_DC said:

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Say the Colts or the Saints or the Bucs. You're getting a new QB and paying him 4 years $120 M....and its Daniel Jones. You've seen him a bit, looked like he was pretty mediocre. Never heard any impartial analyst say he was particularly good. You think you might be missing something so you look up his stats...and it confirms that he's basically 25th in the league every year in every stat. It would be a riot. This guy? Are you fing kidding me? Bear in mind, other fans have not been hammered with the Giants PR that Jones is the hardest worker since Thomas Edison of Jesus Christ. I know fans don't make the calls, but you have to take yourself outside the Giants bubble to look at this stuff. The idea that Jones is valued at $30 M is complete insanity. And if we pay him that much, we are putting ourselves at a massive disadvantage against the rest of the league.

This is a great point and of course BBI has the blue tinted glassed on. There's no objective measure where this guy is worth anything close to some of the AAV numbers thrown around. If he was the qb of any other team, BBI would be laughing if that team handed out that type of contract for this sort of production. But of course, other teams have shelled out big contracts, so its okay for the Giants to do it as well.

could see the Giants giving Jones the FT, even at $31.5M, if he finishes strong, especially with our depleted offense, and the Giants don't think they will be able to draft a QB next year. I don't think using the FT on Jones will prevent them from resigning or signing anyone they want, and it buys them another year. But whether they should use the FT on Jones can't be determined until after the season IMO. Schoen said as much. Jones's evaluation is ongoing.

I think many of you know I wanted the Giants to pick up Jones's option if they kept him (I wanted to trade him, but good thing they didn't).

If they tag him, it will cost about 13.5% of the cap. The 5th year option would have been about 10% of the cap.

Effectively, tagging him this year is just a relatively more expensive 5th year option.

He's the perfect candidate for that route. He's a guy worth evaluating for another year before committing multiple 100s of millions of dollars.

When it comes to Jones. They don’t realize he is #9 in QBR and what 12 in rating. If he is efficient he should be passing more but when Dallas runs the ball 40 times Prescott here is a god. Get ready for you Zack Wilson type QB or Tyrod Taylor’s 25 interceptions if he lasts 5 games. We will be right back to the Gettlemen era calling for the coach and the GM’s head. Get rid of the rest of the trash on this team and build a freaking team.

In comment 15918136 AcidTest said:

Quote:

could see the Giants giving Jones the FT, even at $31.5M, if he finishes strong, especially with our depleted offense, and the Giants don't think they will be able to draft a QB next year. I don't think using the FT on Jones will prevent them from resigning or signing anyone they want, and it buys them another year. But whether they should use the FT on Jones can't be determined until after the season IMO. Schoen said as much. Jones's evaluation is ongoing.

I’m against this for a couple of reasons. The franchise tag is best used in Barkley from a financial standpoint, even if it’s just to trade him. Also the tag number is likely higher than what he receives AAV on the open market. If someone does offer him a multi year deal with an AAV over $25 million then you can let him walk. What I think will likely happen is he’ll go see what’s on the market and the deals will be similar to what the Giants offered.

In comment 15918144 Get ready for you Zack Wilson type QB or Tyrod Taylor’s 25 interceptions if he lasts 5 games. [/quote]

Tyrod Taylor isn’t the answer but we don’t have to make up his faults. He’s been very secure with the ball during his career. In his three seasons he played more than 10 games he averaged 6 interceptions a year when projected over 17 games.

He has 26 interceptions for his career and a career 1.7% interception rate

In comment 15918144 Carl in CT said:

Quote:

When it comes to Jones. They don’t realize he is #9 in QBR and what 12 in rating. If he is efficient he should be passing more but when Dallas runs the ball 40 times Prescott here is a god. Get ready for you Zack Wilson type QB or Tyrod Taylor’s 25 interceptions if he lasts 5 games. We will be right back to the Gettlemen era calling for the coach and the GM’s head. Get rid of the rest of the trash on this team and build a freaking team.

Points, passing yards, passing TDs, YPA, air yards, the fact DJ throws against 7-9 in the box, Giants being 29th in passing and 21st in points per game....

None of that matters? Just use the one stat that justifies your argument?

He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones.

In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said:

Quote:

He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones.

You win the thread. Very funny.

So if we take off the anti-blue glasses and see Jones for the very good QB he is -- it's fair to assume he'll get paid in the neighborhood of a top 13 QB, no?

In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said:

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He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones.

lol

In comment 15918077 UConn4523 said:

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will he sign first? If so that should give you a good idea of what to expect for Jones in regards to actual years and dollars. All the other comps won’t matter at that point.

Geno Smith won't be a comp for Jones. His production is dwarfing Jones'.

In comment 15918152 GMen72 said:

Quote:

In comment 15918144 Carl in CT said: Quote: When it comes to Jones. They don’t realize he is #9 in QBR and what 12 in rating. If he is efficient he should be passing more but when Dallas runs the ball 40 times Prescott here is a god. Get ready for you Zack Wilson type QB or Tyrod Taylor’s 25 interceptions if he lasts 5 games. We will be right back to the Gettlemen era calling for the coach and the GM’s head. Get rid of the rest of the trash on this team and build a freaking team. Points, passing yards, passing TDs, YPA, air yards, the fact DJ throws against 7-9 in the box, Giants being 29th in passing and 21st in points per game.... None of that matters? Just use the one stat that justifies your argument?

An even better question would be, if QBR and Passer Rating are so important, what does he think of Jacoby Brissett?

in the league stacked the box to stop Barkley, daring Jones to beat them, and he couldn't. And you want to give that guy a mega deal? Where's the logic.

In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said:

Quote:

He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones.

If the Giants choose to walk away from Jones, you'll see know objections from me on BBI.

If the Giants extend Jones at the rate of a top 3rd QB in the NFL, I'll be disappointed they didn't make him prove he can improve year-over-year in Daboll's system.

In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said:

Quote:

He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones.

Agreed. Would it be nice to see him in a more talented offense? Sure. But, there are almost 4 seasons of film on him now. As fans we may want to see more. But, I have a feeling this professional regime has a good idea of what they think Jones is now and what he could be based on their first hand experience and past film.

The guy has been the starter for more than three years. We are 11 games into a 17 game season. What do you think you will see in the next 6 games that will materially change what you have seen for the last 3+ years?

Jones is a great guy and hard worker with some plus physical tools. He can help you win when you have a strong running game and strong defense. He has shown no consistent ability to beat a team from the pocket with his arm. His passing stats are below average for an NFL QB. This is all across three different head coaches.

Daniel Jones is a borderline starter in this league who has ups and downs and has never shown any real consistency. Has he played on shitty teams and had shitty coaches? Abso-fucking-lutely! Does that mean we should pay him like a franchise QB or assume he will just become something he has never been with a better team around him? Abso-fucking-lutely not!

JonC nailed it. Jones may or may not be short term bridge the bridge to the next guy. He is not the guy and they can't pay him like he is.

In comment 15918147 ajr2456 said:

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In comment 15918136 AcidTest said: Quote: could see the Giants giving Jones the FT, even at $31.5M, if he finishes strong, especially with our depleted offense, and the Giants don't think they will be able to draft a QB next year. I don't think using the FT on Jones will prevent them from resigning or signing anyone they want, and it buys them another year. But whether they should use the FT on Jones can't be determined until after the season IMO. Schoen said as much. Jones's evaluation is ongoing. I’m against this for a couple of reasons. The franchise tag is best used in Barkley from a financial standpoint, even if it’s just to trade him. Also the tag number is likely higher than what he receives AAV on the open market. If someone does offer him a multi year deal with an AAV over $25 million then you can let him walk. What I think will likely happen is he’ll go see what’s on the market and the deals will be similar to what the Giants offered.

It's all too early to determine at this point. But as of now, I think fans are underestimating what Jones will be offered on the open market as a FA. He's a tough, accomplished leader, extends plays with his legs, has reduced his turnovers, and whose deficiencies might well be seen as a function of our moribund offense. It's also a QB-starved league, and it only takes one team to offer him a big deal.

The FT of $31.5M for Jones is almost certainly higher than his AAV on the open market, but unlike a contract, there is no cap hit beyond the year in which the tag is used.

A lot of teams that want a QB also won't be able to draft one, not without giving up a ton of draft capital. And the draft is a crapshoot. Jones is to a large extent a known quantity who will only cost money, not draft picks.

Let's see what happens the rest of the season.

He was good in high school

In comment 15918179 ajr2456 said:

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He was good in high school

Not exceptionally. He wasn't a highly regarded prospect.

In comment 15918167 Producer said:

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in the league stacked the box to stop Barkley, daring Jones to beat them, and he couldn't. And you want to give that guy a mega deal? Where's the logic.

Too many people are emotionally pot-committed to Jones. They've put so much into him being the guy that they cannot bear to walk away.

You don't have to call someone's raise just because. If someone else is dumb enough to pay him big money to play QB for them, let them.

In comment 15918163 Matt M. said:

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In comment 15918077 UConn4523 said: Quote: will he sign first? If so that should give you a good idea of what to expect for Jones in regards to actual years and dollars. All the other comps won’t matter at that point. Geno Smith won't be a comp for Jones. His production is dwarfing Jones'.

Trubisky's stats dwarf Jones' stats...better not start there either.

do we know that Jones isn't an alien life form? It's tough to play QB in the NFL. There's no reason to think that might not also be true for aliens.

I agree that three plus years is normally long enough to evaluate a player, especially a QB. But maybe not for Jones. He's been through a lot of coaching changes, OCs, and offensive systems. He also didn't have Barkley for most of 2020 and 2021, and still has a porous OL with few weapons. OTOH, Daboll and Kafka's offense looks tailored to maximize his strengths, and there are still plays where he doesn't see the whole field and therefore open receivers.

The toughest part of the schedule is coming up. If Jones plays well, gets the Giants into the playoffs, and wins a game, he's going to get a lot of big offers in FA, alien or not.

In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said:

Quote:

He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones.

Post of the Year candidate.

For 3 years, I have read countless times how the W-L isn't all on Jones. We are quoted various other contributing factors. Now, they are winning and all of a sudden other contributing factors don't matter to our success? We are supposed to just anoint him the present and future at an obscene cap hit just because he's the QB? We are supposed to ignore that he now has a top rushing attack? Or that he has one of the fewest TD totals among all starting QBs? Past losing records weren't enough to judge him, but the current winning record is?

I want to love him. I want the next several weeks to produce a compelling reason to keep him. But, if he's not beating the worst D in the league when they dare him to, he damn well better pull out an all time performance against Dallas, Minny, Washington, and/or Philly and get into the playoffs in order for any kind of payday, in my opinion.

In comment 15918185 GMen72 said:

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In comment 15918163 Matt M. said: Quote: In comment 15918077 UConn4523 said: Quote: will he sign first? If so that should give you a good idea of what to expect for Jones in regards to actual years and dollars. All the other comps won’t matter at that point. Geno Smith won't be a comp for Jones. His production is dwarfing Jones'. Trubisky's stats dwarf Jones' stats...better not start there either.

Geno Smith's contract, if signed first, will 100% be a comp for Jones. You guys keep comparing what he will get vs. Carr, Cousins, etc when there's basically a carbon copy scenario playing out right in Seattle.

As for Trubisky, Jones has shown me way more than what Trubisky ever has. Sucks that it took until year 4 with a competent coaching staff but it is what it is.

I look at a few things.

1. The Giants could have picked up Jones 5th year option and paid him 22M next year. If you think they are paying MORE than that, I have a moon to sell you.

2. The lack of dialog with Jones regarding his contract. They were talking to Barkley?

3. They have had to basically run a bare bones, scaled back offense. Take from that what you will.

I personally think the Giants move on from Jones. Probably franchise Barkley and draft both their successors.

We haven’t scored more than 30 points in 39 games. Oct 11 2020. Spin that how ever you want. Jones has been the QB for the majority of that stint. 39 games.

In comment 15918169 Matt M. said:

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In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said: Quote: He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones. Agreed. Would it be nice to see him in a more talented offense? Sure. But, there are almost 4 seasons of film on him now. As fans we may want to see more. But, I have a feeling this professional regime has a good idea of what they think Jones is now and what he could be based on their first hand experience and past film.

I don’t want to see him in a “more” talented offense. I want to see him in an offense that can truly be called talented. As I’ve said a thousand times, who is the QB around the league who’s succeeding in a situation like this? PFF has the offensive line ranked 31st despite their rushing success. We know what the receivers situation is.

I’m not advocating giving Daniel Jones a big contract. But the there are too many people on BBI who think you can get anyone to do this and I feel like we saw that last season. They ceased to look like a professional football offense. We’ve got BBIdiots saying, “Why didn’t he do anything against the Lions?” As Sy said in his game review, 5 of the 7 offensive linemen were mediocre to flat out terrible. This idea that you put a QB on the field and he just magically starts shooting rainbows out of his ass isn’t real.

In comment 15918056 Jim in Forest Hills said:

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but I think Schoen will have a number for Jones he wont go past. Is it 25M, 30M who knows. At that point we'll see what Jones wants to do. I don't think we are seeing a 100% have to lock him up conversation because I think it would be done by now (and I think rules out 40M+). I like Jones, I do but he could be Salieri to our potential Mozart.

I agree Jim.

up Jones, they might look at him.

In comment 15918278 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

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In comment 15918169 Matt M. said: Quote: In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said: Quote: He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones. Agreed. Would it be nice to see him in a more talented offense? Sure. But, there are almost 4 seasons of film on him now. As fans we may want to see more. But, I have a feeling this professional regime has a good idea of what they think Jones is now and what he could be based on their first hand experience and past film. I don’t want to see him in a “more” talented offense. I want to see him in an offense that can truly be called talented. As I’ve said a thousand times, who is the QB around the league who’s succeeding in a situation like this? PFF has the offensive line ranked 31st despite their rushing success. We know what the receivers situation is. I’m not advocating giving Daniel Jones a big contract. But the there are too many people on BBI who think you can get anyone to do this and I feel like we saw that last season. They ceased to look like a professional football offense. We’ve got BBIdiots saying, “Why didn’t he do anything against the Lions?” As Sy said in his game review, 5 of the 7 offensive linemen were mediocre to flat out terrible. This idea that you put a QB on the field and he just magically starts shooting rainbows out of his ass isn’t real.

Anything against the Lions? He hasn't done anything against anyone. Before last Sunday, he had 2 (TWO) games with 200 yards passing, none over 215. He's averaging 1 (ONE) passing TD per game. Those are TERRIBLE stats...terrible!

This idea that you keep paying a QB big money hoping he might be good someday is silly. Move on...get better, even if it takes a few years. DJ has a ceiling of Tannehill or Jimmy G...nobody would want the Giants to sign either of those guys.

In comment 15918317 GMen72 said:

Quote:

In comment 15918278 shockeyisthebest8056 said: Quote: In comment 15918169 Matt M. said: Quote: In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said: Quote: He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones. Agreed. Would it be nice to see him in a more talented offense? Sure. But, there are almost 4 seasons of film on him now. As fans we may want to see more. But, I have a feeling this professional regime has a good idea of what they think Jones is now and what he could be based on their first hand experience and past film. I don’t want to see him in a “more” talented offense. I want to see him in an offense that can truly be called talented. As I’ve said a thousand times, who is the QB around the league who’s succeeding in a situation like this? PFF has the offensive line ranked 31st despite their rushing success. We know what the receivers situation is. I’m not advocating giving Daniel Jones a big contract. But the there are too many people on BBI who think you can get anyone to do this and I feel like we saw that last season. They ceased to look like a professional football offense. We’ve got BBIdiots saying, “Why didn’t he do anything against the Lions?” As Sy said in his game review, 5 of the 7 offensive linemen were mediocre to flat out terrible. This idea that you put a QB on the field and he just magically starts shooting rainbows out of his ass isn’t real. Anything against the Lions? He hasn't done anything against anyone. Before last Sunday, he had 2 (TWO) games with 200 yards passing, none over 215. He's averaging 1 (ONE) passing TD per game. Those are TERRIBLE stats...terrible! This idea that you keep paying a QB big money hoping he might be good someday is silly. Move on...get better, even if it takes a few years. DJ has a ceiling of Tannehill or Jimmy G...nobody would want the Giants to sign either of those guys.

The idea that you keep on your act is even more silly. Shockey makes some solid points and I see very few advocating paying him big money especially with 7 very big games in front of him.

I don't think comparing QB's is the way to go considering this is a team game. But both JG and MT have both had numerous playoff opportunities and have played in multiple big stakes games.

These last 7 games are really the first time this team is positioned to have something close to that environment. Lots to be learned these next games and not just Jones.

In comment 15918284 Ira said:

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up Jones, they might look at him.

The Jets are run better than that these days. He's got years left on his rookie deal and they still have Flacco and White. If they want to go the veteran game manager route there's more sure things than Daniel Jones.

thinks will be in the market for a starting QB next year? Likely the Colts, Texans, and Panthers - maybe the Jets, Commanders, Bucs, and Falcons. That's probably about it, and 2 or 3 of them are likely to get their starting QB in the next draft. There won't be much of a market for Jones.

In comment 15918317 GMen72 said:

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Anything against the Lions? He hasn't done anything against anyone. Before last Sunday, he had 2 (TWO) games with 200 yards passing, none over 215. He's averaging 1 (ONE) passing TD per game. Those are TERRIBLE stats...terrible! This idea that you keep paying a QB big money hoping he might be good someday is silly. Move on...get better, even if it takes a few years. DJ has a ceiling of Tannehill or Jimmy G...nobody would want the Giants to sign either of those guys.

Do you think Justin Herbert is good? I do. I think he’s great. Do you believe it’s a coincidence that 2 of his 3 worst games this season occurred when he didn’t have Keenan Allen and Mike Williams? Even guys who’re really, really good need good players around them. In the two decent seasons for Daniel Jones, his best receiver has been Darius Slayton.

Like I said before, I’m certainly not advocating signing Jones to a big deal. I just think a lot of people on BBI are in for a rude awakening if you think you can put just anyone on a roster like this and get production and results. Honestly, I don’t think the coach likes Daniel Jones as a player. Maybe he’s dreaming about another Josh Allen. And I’m dreaming about Rihanna giving me half of her money.

I give ryanmkeane credit for taking a stance and saying he wants to keep Jones at 40M a year. If Jones is this clear cut good quarterback, that’s what he’ll get. Next year we can expect 1/3 of the starters to make 40M.

Personally, I don’t know if Jones is a clear cut good starting quarterback.

My bet is he’s not, but he’s looked a lot better this year than I could have ever imagined. And I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibilities he improves year-over-year under the expert guidance of Daboll.

This is why I think it’s highly likely Jones gets a 5th year. Which isn’t an unprecedented leash for a QB.

What comparison is that? Let's wait until someone is in like in their 9th year or whatever; fourth team ; and like 32 years old to finally have a year. If Russ Wilson didn't get hurt his last start would have have been 2017 on the Giants and that was with another team sandwhiched in the middle there that just kept him on the bench.

In comment 15918344 eclipz928 said:

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thinks will be in the market for a starting QB next year? Likely the Colts, Texans, and Panthers - maybe the Jets, Commanders, Bucs, and Falcons. That's probably about it, and 2 or 3 of them are likely to get their starting QB in the next draft. There won't be much of a market for Jones.

Giants, Saints, maybe the Patriots, maybe the Ravens(if Lamar goes), Seahawks

Hes certainly better than Wilson right now. Jones would be in competition with guys like Brissett, Jimmy, Minshew, Trubisky, Mariota and maybe some backups like Rush or Huntley for jobs like that. I'm not sure of everyone's contract status on that list.

Teams that are looking for adequate seat warmers will be interested in Jones at the right price.

In comment 15918327 Lines of Scrimmage said:

Quote:

In comment 15918317 GMen72 said: Quote: In comment 15918278 shockeyisthebest8056 said: Quote: In comment 15918169 Matt M. said: Quote: In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said: Quote: He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones. Agreed. Would it be nice to see him in a more talented offense? Sure. But, there are almost 4 seasons of film on him now. As fans we may want to see more. But, I have a feeling this professional regime has a good idea of what they think Jones is now and what he could be based on their first hand experience and past film. I don’t want to see him in a “more” talented offense. I want to see him in an offense that can truly be called talented. As I’ve said a thousand times, who is the QB around the league who’s succeeding in a situation like this? PFF has the offensive line ranked 31st despite their rushing success. We know what the receivers situation is. I’m not advocating giving Daniel Jones a big contract. But the there are too many people on BBI who think you can get anyone to do this and I feel like we saw that last season. They ceased to look like a professional football offense. We’ve got BBIdiots saying, “Why didn’t he do anything against the Lions?” As Sy said in his game review, 5 of the 7 offensive linemen were mediocre to flat out terrible. This idea that you put a QB on the field and he just magically starts shooting rainbows out of his ass isn’t real. Anything against the Lions? He hasn't done anything against anyone. Before last Sunday, he had 2 (TWO) games with 200 yards passing, none over 215. He's averaging 1 (ONE) passing TD per game. Those are TERRIBLE stats...terrible! This idea that you keep paying a QB big money hoping he might be good someday is silly. Move on...get better, even if it takes a few years. DJ has a ceiling of Tannehill or Jimmy G...nobody would want the Giants to sign either of those guys. The idea that you keep on your act is even more silly. Shockey makes some solid points and I see very few advocating paying him big money especially with 7 very big games in front of him. I don't think comparing QB's is the way to go considering this is a team game. But both JG and MT have both had numerous playoff opportunities and have played in multiple big stakes games. These last 7 games are really the first time this team is positioned to have something close to that environment. Lots to be learned these next games and not just Jones.

There's multiple people on this board that think we should franchise tag him at $45 million. Others are saying a multiple year deal at $25-30 million.

Funny that we can't compare QBs on stats, when DJs aren't good...but we can use other QB's salaries? That's silly! You have to compare stats. You can't just take a QB with 175 yards per game passing and 15 TDs per year, and say he should make this or that because that would make you happy...you have to look at what QBs who throw for those stats make on average. That's how Schoen will negotiate...he's not gonna give DJ a big contract to make you, or this board, happy...that's how Gettkeman operated.

You're also right...you can't compare DJ to Tannehill. MT has 5 season with 3700+ yards passing and one with 33 TDs...let me know when DJ gets anywhere near either of those. Trubisky has better career stats.

Sorry it doesn't fit your argument...but stats matter.

In comment 15918344 eclipz928 said:

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thinks will be in the market for a starting QB next year? Likely the Colts, Texans, and Panthers - maybe the Jets, Commanders, Bucs, and Falcons. That's probably about it, and 2 or 3 of them are likely to get their starting QB in the next draft. There won't be much of a market for Jones.

There could be others if the dominoes fall a certain way. If the Raiders jettison Carr, for example. that could be a landing spot.

I'm almost willing to remove ATL. Mariota has played very well this year.

I thought about Seattle, too. But if Geno keeps on his current pace, I think it gets very tough for them to bring in a player like Jones who probably isn't a major upgrade over Geno. And my guess is they can keep him at a cheaper contract than Jones because of his age and the likelihood there won't be a lot of teams, IMV, viewing Geno as a long-term solution at QB. Unless teams view him as a QB mercenary...

Maybe Detroit? Jones is more athletic than Goff, but I think Goff is a better pocket passer. But that could be interesting.

thing in NY Sports Franchise history. Said it before , I'll say it again. i have never seen such a fan support the most mediocre MFer in all of NY sports .

Conforto eh whatever let him walk. Oakley loved him but you are not winning a championship with him. Ewing they play better without him . Degrom Daniel Murphy you name it. All of these guys did something . Jones has not done jack shit except play "his ass off" "play tough" have a big dong or whatever unquantifiable thing the Jones crew wants them to break out a 30 mil a year check for. I saw a 6 mil back up Jimmy Garapolo throw 4 Tds last night. That is only 2 fewer than Jones has thrown all year

Oh but interrior oline ; skills players balh blah. You know what I say: So freaking what? You don't pay 30 mil a year just to see what is behind door #2

In comment 15918356 section125 said:

Quote:

In comment 15918344 eclipz928 said: Quote: thinks will be in the market for a starting QB next year? Likely the Colts, Texans, and Panthers - maybe the Jets, Commanders, Bucs, and Falcons. That's probably about it, and 2 or 3 of them are likely to get their starting QB in the next draft. There won't be much of a market for Jones. Giants, Saints, maybe the Patriots, maybe the Ravens(if Lamar goes), Seahawks

... but even if you include those teams, you still have to factor in the competition that results from those teams moving on from their current QBs. It would mean that Jameis Winston, Mac Jones, Lamar Jackson, and/or Geno Smith would become available via free agency or trade in addition to the other available QBs who will be looking for an opportunity.

In comment 15918336 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 15918284 Ira said: Quote: up Jones, they might look at him. The Jets are run better than that these days. He's got years left on his rookie deal and they still have Flacco and White. If they want to go the veteran game manager route there's more sure things than Daniel Jones.

If the Jets are run well then they will know that Wilson, Flacco and White are all wastes of time. I'm not saying they want or should want Jones, but Jones is a clear upgrade for them.

Hes following directions I'm sure, but they do nothing in the passing game. If anything they'd go with Ridder next year. Mariota is just a placeholder.

Stats matter when you understand the talent around the QB. Until you understand the variables around the QB it does no good using them as primary argument to evaluating a QB.

When you understand the talent you can set expectations.

You showing why Jones should have far better stats means something. You saying his stats need to be much better means nothing to me.

His two primary weapons to start the year have/had less than 10 catches combined (one is now gone). Robinson was hurt the first QTR of the first game. Just as he was getting his feet wet in the league he is now out for the season. His TE that was one of the better players on the team (in BD's words) has been out.

Who is Jones supposed to be accumulating all these stats with on top of the OL issues mentioned?

I am not even a big pro Jones guy but some of this stuff you see on these posts is ridiculous when it comes to QB's.

In comment 15918349 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

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Do you think Justin Herbert is good? I do. I think he’s great. Do you believe it’s a coincidence that 2 of his 3 worst games this season occurred when he didn’t have Keenan Allen and Mike Williams? Even guys who’re really, really good need good players around them. In the two decent seasons for Daniel Jones, his best receiver has been Darius Slayton.

That's why you evaluate QBs by things you can measure, and observe objectively.

Justin Herbert, by virtually every criteria used to evaluate QBs, is better than Daniel Jones, by a lot. Let's not even bother comparing arm strength because that's like comparing a water gun to a surface-to-air missile.

Maybe the only thing Jones has on Herbert is straight line speed, but even given that, Herbert has much better footwork in the pocket, and is more elusive.

And aside from speed, Jones is very average across the board. That's being generous with regard to his processing speed, which has always been the knock on him, and nothing suggest that's he's gotten or will get any better in that area.

Have the Giants put a good team around Jones? No. Does that mean that Jones would be an upper echelon NFL QB if they did?

Also no.

And doesn't buttfumble would be an upgrade for them. My sole point is that the possibility of losing him to the Jets isn't fear motivation to sign him.

Giants wide receivers or Duke wide receivers?

In comment 15918391 Lines of Scrimmage said:

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Stats matter when you understand the talent around the QB. Until you understand the variables around the QB it does no good using them as primary argument to evaluating a QB. When you understand the talent you can set expectations. You showing why Jones should have far better stats means something. You saying his stats need to be much better means nothing to me. His two primary weapons to start the year have/had less than 10 catches combined (one is now gone). Robinson was hurt the first QTR of the first game. Just as he was getting his feet wet in the league he is now out for the season. His TE that was one of the better players on the team (in BD's words) has been out. Who is Jones supposed to be accumulating all these stats with on top of the OL issues mentioned? I am not even a big pro Jones guy but some of this stuff you see on these posts is ridiculous when it comes to QB's.

So what is the answer when you can't evaluate a QB because the team around him isn't good? Do you pay him on the assumption he must be a good QB because he looks bad with a bad team?

A bad team can be QB'd by Mike Glennon or Patrick Mahomes. Do you assume Mike Glennon will be good when you put a good team around him, or at some point do you have to try and figure out what your QB actually does and doesn't do well?

This idea that the default assumption is that a QB with horrible statistics and a losing record on a bad team must actually be a good QB and be paid like one is something I have never seen outside of BBI.

Who are the quarterbacks that switched teams and went from being poor passing producers to good ones?

Geno Smith is the best example off the top of my head. Tannehill had good production with Miami before going to Tennessee.

Goff went from a great situation to a bad one last year and produced the one fewer touchdown (but fewer yards off 58 fewer attempts).

The case for Jones turning into a good passing QB is very weak.

In comment 15918399 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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And doesn't buttfumble would be an upgrade for them. My sole point is that the possibility of losing him to the Jets isn't fear motivation to sign him.

That isn't what you said though. You said the Jets are smart and shouldn't want Jones, atleast, that's how it sounded.

I do agree that "losing" Jones to the Jets doesn't mean anything - why would Schoen care who he goes to if he determined he's not the franchise guy?

does JOnes record pre-new regime matter? I think its nothing more than a talking point amongst fans. Maybe its a small data point for Schoen and Daboll but nothing is more valuable than the hands on data they've been accumulating since getting here. And since they got here we are 7-3 with largely crap around him. Does Pete Carroll care about what Geno Smith did for the Jets?

I don't think you magically think Jones will be great with Tyreek Hill and a plus OL, but Schoen/Daboll probably have a good idea of what his ceiling is and its definitely raised even just a bit if we have more impact players on the roster.

In comment 15918356 section125 said:

Quote:

In comment 15918344 eclipz928 said: Quote: thinks will be in the market for a starting QB next year? Likely the Colts, Texans, and Panthers - maybe the Jets, Commanders, Bucs, and Falcons. That's probably about it, and 2 or 3 of them are likely to get their starting QB in the next draft. There won't be much of a market for Jones. Giants, Saints, maybe the Patriots, maybe the Ravens(if Lamar goes), Seahawks

With each of those new teams that enters the fray, so too does their incumbent QB become an option for those teams to consider. I don't think the market's elasticity will get tested in a way that really propels any single QB's price up by too much unless multiple teams have one or more of the QBs ranked a clear cut above the general level of the fungible QB tier.

Which is to say that if Jones is going to get a big contract (either from the Giants or elsewhere), it'll be because that team has a significantly higher value on DJ than they do on the other options available. Otherwise, if they have DJ (or whatever other QB) at basically the same level as the alternatives, they're not getting into a bidding war for an interchangeable piece.

In comment 15918167 Producer said:

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in the league stacked the box to stop Barkley, daring Jones to beat them, and he couldn't. And you want to give that guy a mega deal? Where's the logic.

BBI: If he just had more targets at WR is the counter to this.

Not defending DJ here, I am very neutral on him and starting to lean away.

In comment 15918425 thefan said:

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In comment 15918167 Producer said: Quote: in the league stacked the box to stop Barkley, daring Jones to beat them, and he couldn't. And you want to give that guy a mega deal? Where's the logic. BBI: If he just had more targets at WR is the counter to this. Not defending DJ here, I am very neutral on him and starting to lean away.

. 347 yards passing 2 TD s, not horrible

In comment 15918391 Lines of Scrimmage said:

Quote:

Stats matter when you understand the talent around the QB. Until you understand the variables around the QB it does no good using them as primary argument to evaluating a QB. When you understand the talent you can set expectations. You showing why Jones should have far better stats means something. You saying his stats need to be much better means nothing to me. His two primary weapons to start the year have/had less than 10 catches combined (one is now gone). Robinson was hurt the first QTR of the first game. Just as he was getting his feet wet in the league he is now out for the season. His TE that was one of the better players on the team (in BD's words) has been out. Who is Jones supposed to be accumulating all these stats with on top of the OL issues mentioned? I am not even a big pro Jones guy but some of this stuff you see on these posts is ridiculous when it comes to QB's.

Since you're the hypothetical QB guru, give us DJs stats with better talent. Is he Mahomes? Allen? Herbert? Cousins? Carr? Who? Since you're evaluating the talent around him, surely you can evaluate him with better talent, right? Should be easy with you talent evaluation skills, no? Nobody cared that the talent around Trubisky in Chicago was terrible...they just moved on. Terrible decision, right? How many more years until you'll know if DJ is good?

I know everyone points at what is around DJ...any chance it's, at the very least, partly on DJ? Toney is talented...didnt want to play for the Giants, already looks better in KC (but hurt again). Golladay was pretty good until DJ became his QB...and looks like he's checked out and wants to be somewhere else. Robinson and Slayton at least want to play, but DJ can't make them anything soecial. Maybe some of this is on DJ and the receivers know he's average? Show me other situations where multiple talented WRs checkout on a season with a stud QB (not named Antonio Bryant)? It's kinda funny DJ gets no blame for anything...isn't it?

There's also a reason this offense is so dumbed down and why DJ is 40th in the NFL in air yards. OLine and WRs? Sure...to some extent. However, if you think this is the offense Daboll and Kafka want to run, you're wrong...and DJ is partially to blame for that too.

In comment 15918391 Lines of Scrimmage said:

Quote:

Stats matter when you understand the talent around the QB. Until you understand the variables around the QB it does no good using them as primary argument to evaluating a QB. When you understand the talent you can set expectations. You showing why Jones should have far better stats means something. You saying his stats need to be much better means nothing to me. His two primary weapons to start the year have/had less than 10 catches combined (one is now gone). Robinson was hurt the first QTR of the first game. Just as he was getting his feet wet in the league he is now out for the season. His TE that was one of the better players on the team (in BD's words) has been out. Who is Jones supposed to be accumulating all these stats with on top of the OL issues mentioned? I am not even a big pro Jones guy but some of this stuff you see on these posts is ridiculous when it comes to QB's.

Hahaha, you think?

In comment 15918427 joeinpa said:

Quote:

In comment 15918425 thefan said: Quote: In comment 15918167 Producer said: Quote: in the league stacked the box to stop Barkley, daring Jones to beat them, and he couldn't. And you want to give that guy a mega deal? Where's the logic. BBI: If he just had more targets at WR is the counter to this. Not defending DJ here, I am very neutral on him and starting to lean away. . 347 yards passing 2 TD s, not horrible

You make jabs about how stats don't matter...then use stats to make a point. Typical of Jones supporters who use random stats to make a point but want to ignore, and make excuses for, the numerous QB stats they don't like.

You can count on one hand the number of games DJ has put up big numbers in a game when it actually mattered, not in mop up time. The Giants are 3-4 when DJ throws for 300 yards...because it's usually in mop up time.

In comment 15918410 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

In comment 15918391 Lines of Scrimmage said: Quote: Stats matter when you understand the talent around the QB. Until you understand the variables around the QB it does no good using them as primary argument to evaluating a QB. When you understand the talent you can set expectations. You showing why Jones should have far better stats means something. You saying his stats need to be much better means nothing to me. His two primary weapons to start the year have/had less than 10 catches combined (one is now gone). Robinson was hurt the first QTR of the first game. Just as he was getting his feet wet in the league he is now out for the season. His TE that was one of the better players on the team (in BD's words) has been out. Who is Jones supposed to be accumulating all these stats with on top of the OL issues mentioned? I am not even a big pro Jones guy but some of this stuff you see on these posts is ridiculous when it comes to QB's. So what is the answer when you can't evaluate a QB because the team around him isn't good? Do you pay him on the assumption he must be a good QB because he looks bad with a bad team? A bad team can be QB'd by Mike Glennon or Patrick Mahomes. Do you assume Mike Glennon will be good when you put a good team around him, or at some point do you have to try and figure out what your QB actually does and doesn't do well? This idea that the default assumption is that a QB with horrible statistics and a losing record on a bad team must actually be a good QB and be paid like one is something I have never seen outside of BBI.

Amen!

You are now making another sillier argument. I said nothing about not being able to make a evaluation. You can learn plenty outside stats. Stats do not define a QB and the variables around the QB will have a huge say in those stats. Two totally different things. Not a hypothetical guru but a little more on top of things judging some of your posts.

Either dig in or try to learn some things that open your mind to the game outside the position.

One such evaluation I have made knowns is evaluating Jones now that the stakes are much higher. Again I am not going to use stats as the defining measure and I doubt JS/BD or anyone with a sense of this position will either. Plenty will be learned without them.

In comment 15918284 Ira said:

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up Jones, they might look at him.

But the Jets are complete shit show so if they want Jones, Jones is trash

In comment 15918407 Spiciest Memelord said:

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Giants wide receivers or Duke wide receivers?

Yea ok duke WRs working 100 hours a week in a hedge fund (where D Jones should be)

Better question: giants duke QBs or non duke….


ND ….
Eli
Kerry Collins
Phil simms

Duke….

Dave browns
D Jones

In comment 15918410 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

In comment 15918391 Lines of Scrimmage said: Quote: Stats matter when you understand the talent around the QB. Until you understand the variables around the QB it does no good using them as primary argument to evaluating a QB. When you understand the talent you can set expectations. You showing why Jones should have far better stats means something. You saying his stats need to be much better means nothing to me. His two primary weapons to start the year have/had less than 10 catches combined (one is now gone). Robinson was hurt the first QTR of the first game. Just as he was getting his feet wet in the league he is now out for the season. His TE that was one of the better players on the team (in BD's words) has been out. Who is Jones supposed to be accumulating all these stats with on top of the OL issues mentioned? I am not even a big pro Jones guy but some of this stuff you see on these posts is ridiculous when it comes to QB's. So what is the answer when you can't evaluate a QB because the team around him isn't good? Do you pay him on the assumption he must be a good QB because he looks bad with a bad team? A bad team can be QB'd by Mike Glennon or Patrick Mahomes. Do you assume Mike Glennon will be good when you put a good team around him, or at some point do you have to try and figure out what your QB actually does and doesn't do well? This idea that the default assumption is that a QB with horrible statistics and a losing record on a bad team must actually be a good QB and be paid like one is something I have never seen outside of BBI.

I have never made any comment on what Jones should be paid nor do I understand your point about Mahomes or Glennon.

The only consistent thing I have said is that the talent is not very good around Jones at several key areas. What is potential is a TBD still imv. I don't think he is a star with star talent. I have a good idea what he is without that star talent.

In comment 15917650 Sean said:

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In comment 15917646 section125 said: Quote: as mud. I think it’s quite clear. The economics of the decision is huge and I’m honestly surprised it isn’t discussed more. Jones could get a 4 year deal at $25M per. When people say Jones is the least of their problems, the pending FA status seems to be ignored.

This is a seller's market right now for QBs. Too many teams need one and there are not enough to go around.

It really does not matter what WE think of Jones. He is going to get paid.

Sean, while agree that it should be discussed, I question the author of the article. Claiming the source as an un-named league executive. There is no source.

The reality is we still have too many holes to fill on this roster. The only difference is we are going into the off season with a better record than usual. We also have a team and coaches that potentially can attract free agents because they want to win... not just get paid.

A one year contract is almost a slap in the face given what he's gone through with a substandard O line and receivers. The Giants have done little to build around him and he's been playing with scrubs since he was drafted. He should definitely test the waters and find a team with talent.

Swung by momentum all the time. You see coaches or players with good long term records hit a cold streak and all of a sudden they can’t find a job. And the reverse happens, too.

So Jerry made the point - wittily - that we know who Jones is after quite a few starts. The Lions game was a nice case in point: Jones had good stats and played well in stretches, but he couldn’t get scores and made some mistakes.

I agree. We know who Jones is. But the issue is that he’s an entering an auction market, and in auction markets, the winning bidder overpays. And this auction market is highly pressure filled and has a history of overpaying based on recent performance.

So what DJ does in the next few games is very very important because it will frame the market for him. And that will have a big impact on Schoen.

Spot on Cosmic. Jones has an opportunity to win some critical division games in December.

If he leads the Giants to the playoffs, by getting through a pretty good division, he's getting a lot more money than a guy like Winston who was coming off a torn ACL.

In comment 15918469 blink667 said:

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A one year contract is almost a slap in the face given what he's gone through with a substandard O line and receivers. The Giants have done little to build around him and he's been playing with scrubs since he was drafted. He should definitely test the waters and find a team with talent.

you sound like more of a Daniel Jones fan, than a Giants fan. But I agree with you, let him test the waters.

In comment 15918444 Lines of Scrimmage said:

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You are now making another sillier argument. I said nothing about not being able to make a evaluation. You can learn plenty outside stats. Stats do not define a QB and the variables around the QB will have a huge say in those stats. Two totally different things. Not a hypothetical guru but a little more on top of things judging some of your posts. Either dig in or try to learn some things that open your mind to the game outside the position. One such evaluation I have made knowns is evaluating Jones now that the stakes are much higher. Again I am not going to use stats as the defining measure and I doubt JS/BD or anyone with a sense of this position will either. Plenty will be learned without them.

Neither do hypotheticals or feelings. In the end, you have to judge a player by something concrete (stats) or by biased Giants fans feelings. You're not on top of anything, you're just a fanboy posting on a website. You have no basis to keep Jones other than team wins (not all DJ...not even mostly DJ) and your hopes and feelings. Based on production, sustainability, and type of offense, there's no reason to think DJ is the future.

Granted, Schoen/Daboll will take other things into consideration when deciding to keep him...but in negotiations, the Giants will almost certainly focus on stats, because it's their best avenue to a team friendly deal. His agent will make your argument...because it's all DJ has.

In comment 15918469 blink667 said:

Quote:

A one year contract is almost a slap in the face given what he's gone through with a substandard O line and receivers. The Giants have done little to build around him and he's been playing with scrubs since he was drafted. He should definitely test the waters and find a team with talent.

It's not intramurals! I really think most fans feel sorry for Jones more than think he's a franchise QB.

Available in a couple of months who I think is more talented than Jones and that is Baker Mayfield. Surprised his name hasn’t come up in these long threads but I bet he is in Schoen’s consideration set. And no one is giving Chode Boy Baker $30mm a year.

There is still so much football to be played. If the Giants miss the playoffs, I’d put it at less than a 10% chance Jones is back.

.. next seven (and the prior ten) will provide the data.

In comment 15918122 thefan said:

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In comment 15918096 JonC said: Quote: The only question is when is the future, and do they offer Jones a deal beyond this season based on him being the best bridge option for 2023. I really don't expect NYG to FT Jones. If they really feel he's worth the FT, then an extension should be completed. Are you sure that bridge isn't named Tyrod Taylor?

I think Jones has shown enough so far to warrant the job over Taylor. One key will be do they have eyes on a UFA or college QB to move on and just turn the page. If not, then I'd have to think they would turn to Jones and try to negotiate a short contract to remain. But, then his agent could try and force Jones' way off the team for a better deal, etc. In the end, Taylor could wind up starting by default. Lots of moving parts next offseason.

In comment 15918193 bw in dc said:

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In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said: Quote: He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones. Post of the Year candidate.

lol

In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said:

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He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones.

Lmao how did I miss this

worst case scenario, he falls back to earth he sucks and you get the #1 pick in the 2024 draft.

You can always move a veteran QB in a trade later. Look at Darnold/Rosen/Wentz.

What QB in in college right now really projects to be a franchise altering QB and is in range for Giants at what could be a mid round pick.

In comment 15918602 Rory said:

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worst case scenario, he falls back to earth he sucks and you get the #1 pick in the 2024 draft. You can always move a veteran QB in a trade later. Look at Darnold/Rosen/Wentz. What QB in in college right now really projects to be a franchise altering QB and is in range for Giants at what could be a mid round pick.

Fallback to earth? What planet is he orbiting this year?

In comment 15918567 djm said:

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.. next seven (and the prior ten) will provide the data.

I just don't think you decide to keep a QB based on how he plays in a few games in his 4th year, much less the last seven. And I keep saying this and nobody agrees so I must be alone in this. A good offensive minded HC, like Daboll, knows what he wants in a QB. He should be looking for traits that fit how he wants to play ball. He'll be flexible, sure, but I think the QB has to somewhat fit something the coach wants to do. Maybe Jones fits what Daboll wants, but I'm not sure the last 7 will change his mind. I hope his mind is made up - a HC should have a clear vision of what he wants to do and should be able to see what the QB can do, what his traits will allow.

Jones is not going to turn into Josh Allen or Jake Fromm. He's played 48 games in the league already. Jones is very consistent and he's going to keep being Jones.

First, our OL is going to get massacred on Thursday. If it looks anything like the last Dallas game, he won't stand a chance and it gives little info about the QB. So now we're down to 6.

Among those 6, he'll probably have 4 Regular Jones games, 1 actual good game and 1 stinker.

Regular Jones games: 3 games we'll keep tight, minimize the role of the QB, he'll throw for 170-210 yards. We'll score between 17 and 24 points. We'll win or lose based on a couple of high leverage plays (basically most games in our 7-2 start). The other will be like on Sunday - fall behind, rack up some yards in the 2nd half

One actual good game, probably against WFT where our D doesn't play so good and Jones looks like a good QB (like the game in DC last year)

One bad game, probably against Philly. We fall behind, need to throw and he turns it over a few times.

Look maybe I'm wrong and there will be some massive transformation or collapse in his play. Bit this is who he is. We've seen it for years. He's going to play like Jones. We'll probably win 2 or 3 games and lose decisively in a playoff game. If we get that information, do we still need to watch him for another season to see it again?

In comment 15918602 Rory said:

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worst case scenario, he falls back to earth he sucks and you get the #1 pick in the 2024 draft. You can always move a veteran QB in a trade later. Look at Darnold/Rosen/Wentz. What QB in in college right now really projects to be a franchise altering QB and is in range for Giants at what could be a mid round pick.

This is the question that never gets an answer.

In the meadow land winds Sunday, made me wonder once again why some question his arm talent.

I m thinking if season ended today, Giants want to bring him back.

In the last two weeks I watched Josh Allen implode with game on the line, and Justin Herbert throw a bad looking interception to end the game, even great quarterbacks make mistakes. So far this season Daniel makes fewer and leads the league in game winning drives, an inconvenient truth for some.

In comment 15918660 Ron Johnson said:

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In comment 15918602 Rory said: Quote: worst case scenario, he falls back to earth he sucks and you get the #1 pick in the 2024 draft. You can always move a veteran QB in a trade later. Look at Darnold/Rosen/Wentz. What QB in in college right now really projects to be a franchise altering QB and is in range for Giants at what could be a mid round pick. This is the question that never gets an answer.

No one here is qualified to answer that question.

In comment 15918660 Ron Johnson said:

Quote:

In comment 15918602 Rory said: Quote: worst case scenario, he falls back to earth he sucks and you get the #1 pick in the 2024 draft. You can always move a veteran QB in a trade later. Look at Darnold/Rosen/Wentz. What QB in in college right now really projects to be a franchise altering QB and is in range for Giants at what could be a mid round pick. This is the question that never gets an answer.

The answer is possibly several of them, possibly none of them. There is no perfect line of site on any current college QB becoming a franchise NFL QB. You do your evaluations, rank the guys and possibly navigate the Draft Board to land one.

Can you answer to whether Daniel Jones is franchise QB yet? Not sure why not since you have had nearly 4 years to study him as an NFL starter.

In comment 15918667 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 15918660 Ron Johnson said: Quote: In comment 15918602 Rory said: Quote: worst case scenario, he falls back to earth he sucks and you get the #1 pick in the 2024 draft. You can always move a veteran QB in a trade later. Look at Darnold/Rosen/Wentz. What QB in in college right now really projects to be a franchise altering QB and is in range for Giants at what could be a mid round pick. This is the question that never gets an answer. No one here is qualified to answer that question.

The answer that there are no 100 percent guaranteed QBs in the draft that are franchise QB so you might as well continue to build around jones is a lame one. Jones is who he is. After watching Garapolo on mnf — despite having better skill players — there is clearly a difference.

In a few words this is how I describe Jones …. He is basically the same guy he was at Duke. When passing he needs about 5-6 seconds for a play to develop , in which he will stand like a statue and stare down a field completely oblivious to what is going on around him in the pocket .

In the NFL he would have needed to cut that down to about 3-4 seconds while at the same time moving his head and body to go through reads.

The quick fix for this was jones to tuck a ball away and start running or to go on make shift plays or roll outs at the slightest sign of trouble ; ; which admittedly has been working until he got found out by the Seahawks. That is all even though he had enough time to get a regular play off. Is it any wonder so many receivers are checked out? The jones crew attributes this to poor receivers. They can’t prove it. It’s just an emotional reaction to them liking jones. that is not a starting franchise QBs

In comment 15918662 joeinpa said:

Quote:

In the meadow land winds Sunday, made me wonder once again why some question his arm talent. I m thinking if season ended today, Giants want to bring him back. In the last two weeks I watched Josh Allen implode with game on the line, and Justin Herbert throw a bad looking interception to end the game, even great quarterbacks make mistakes. So far this season Daniel makes fewer and leads the league in game winning drives, an inconvenient truth for some.

Comparing other QBs at their worst to Daniel Jones at his best isn't a useful conversation.

The two guys you mentioned are significantly better than Jones in almost every single way. Don't embarrass yourself by bringing them up in comparison to Jones.

In comment 15918682 Atari2600 said:

Quote:

In a few words this is how I describe Jones …. He is basically the same guy he was at Duke. When passing he needs about 5-6 seconds for a play to develop , in which he will stand like a statue and stare down a field completely oblivious to what is going on around him in the pocket . In the NFL he would have needed to cut that down to about 3-4 seconds while at the same time moving his head and body to go through reads. The quick fix for this was jones to tuck a ball away and start running or to go on make shift plays or roll outs at the slightest sign of trouble ; ; which admittedly has been working until he got found out by the Seahawks. That is all even though he had enough time to get a regular play off. Is it any wonder so many receivers are checked out? The jones crew attributes this to poor receivers. They can’t prove it. It’s just an emotional reaction to them liking jones. that is not a starting franchise QBs

yeah, ok

In comment 15918682 Atari2600 said:

Quote:

In comment 15918667 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 15918660 Ron Johnson said: Quote: In comment 15918602 Rory said: Quote: worst case scenario, he falls back to earth he sucks and you get the #1 pick in the 2024 draft. You can always move a veteran QB in a trade later. Look at Darnold/Rosen/Wentz. What QB in in college right now really projects to be a franchise altering QB and is in range for Giants at what could be a mid round pick. This is the question that never gets an answer. No one here is qualified to answer that question. The answer that there are no 100 percent guaranteed QBs in the draft that are franchise QB so you might as well continue to build around jones is a lame one. Jones is who he is. After watching Garapolo on mnf — despite having better skill players — there is clearly a difference. In a few words this is how I describe Jones …. He is basically the same guy he was at Duke. When passing he needs about 5-6 seconds for a play to develop , in which he will stand like a statue and stare down a field completely oblivious to what is going on around him in the pocket . In the NFL he would have needed to cut that down to about 3-4 seconds while at the same time moving his head and body to go through reads. The quick fix for this was jones to tuck a ball away and start running or to go on make shift plays or roll outs at the slightest sign of trouble ; ; which admittedly has been working until he got found out by the Seahawks. That is all even though he had enough time to get a regular play off. Is it any wonder so many receivers are checked out? The jones crew attributes this to poor receivers. They can’t prove it. It’s just an emotional reaction to them liking jones. that is not a starting franchise QBs

Wait. Are did you really just say that people can’t prove that Jones is playing with poor receivers? Holy shitballs.

What’s next, nobody can prove that the interior OL has played poorly? You are a complete assclown if you honestly think Jones hasn’t been affected by a horrific cast of characters they’re trotting out there every week. I’ve said it a million times that I don’t think Jones is the answer but you need to pull your head out of the sand. It’s ok to question Jones while also admitting his situation has been the worst in the league since he was drafted

In comment 15918662 joeinpa said:

Quote:

In the meadow land winds Sunday, made me wonder once again why some question his arm talent. I m thinking if season ended today, Giants want to bring him back. In the last two weeks I watched Josh Allen implode with game on the line, and Justin Herbert throw a bad looking interception to end the game, even great quarterbacks make mistakes. So far this season Daniel makes fewer and leads the league in game winning drives, an inconvenient truth for some.

Joe going down fighting. One can only admire the tenacity. There is not a GM in the League that would take Jones over Allen or Herbert so stop right there.

In comment 15918693 HomerJones45 said:

Quote:

In comment 15918662 joeinpa said: Quote: In the meadow land winds Sunday, made me wonder once again why some question his arm talent. I m thinking if season ended today, Giants want to bring him back. In the last two weeks I watched Josh Allen implode with game on the line, and Justin Herbert throw a bad looking interception to end the game, even great quarterbacks make mistakes. So far this season Daniel makes fewer and leads the league in game winning drives, an inconvenient truth for some. Joe going down fighting. One can only admire the tenacity. There is not a GM in the League that would take Jones over Allen or Herbert so stop right there.

Nice try. That is not what he said at all. In fact, he said if Allen and Herbert can implode(suggesting they are upper tier QBs) then why couldn't Jones(a lower tier QB)...

You are right, no GM would take Jones over those two. In fact, even DG would have taken Herbert over Jones had he come out that year - we know that.

Posters like Rory have a chronic fear of getting better. He's the guy who spent last year assaulting the board and the English language, because he just knew no quality coach would ever come to NY if they fired Judge.

This year's boogie man is now they'll never get a franchise quarterback in the draft.

Just so we're clear, does that mean Jones is a franchise quarterback? I'd also suggest reading up on how Schoen's former team moved up from 21 to 7 to get Allen, and only traded 1 first round pick.

But short of finding the next Allen, what if the Giants drafted a game manager with good wheels who can lead a run-first team, in a paired down system as he grows? And what if that guy came at a 4 year, 30M price tag?

That would be better, no?

In comment 15918662 joeinpa said:

Quote:

In the meadow land winds Sunday, made me wonder once again why some question his arm talent. I m thinking if season ended today, Giants want to bring him back. In the last two weeks I watched Josh Allen implode with game on the line, and Justin Herbert throw a bad looking interception to end the game, even great quarterbacks make mistakes. So far this season Daniel makes fewer and leads the league in game winning drives, an inconvenient truth for some.

DJ's most ardent defenders love to throw the game winning drives stat into the discussion this year because they seem to think it's their ace in the hole.

Guess what? If your QB leads you to a 2 TD lead in the 3rd quarter (for example), and your team holds onto the lead the rest of the way, your QB doesn't get credited with a game winning drive at all. Playing a lot of close games, and playing from behind, gives a QB a lot more opportunities for game winning drives. And there's no requirement that the QB even throw the ball to get credited with a game winning drive in those close games. Several of the top QBs on really good teams don't get very many GWD opportunities at all. If the best QBs have fewer GWD opportunities in the first place, are we certain that having more GWD is a particularly strong indicator of QB performance?

It seems like a silly stat for fans who have nothing else they can cling to.

In comment 15918700 christian said:

Quote:

Posters like Rory have a chronic fear of getting better. He's the guy who spent last year assaulting the board and the English language, because he just knew no quality coach would ever come to NY if they fired Judge. This year's boogie man is now they'll never get a franchise quarterback in the draft. Just so we're clear, does that mean Jones is a franchise quarterback? I'd also suggest reading up on how Schoen's former team moved up from 21 to 7 to get Allen, and only traded 1 first round pick. But short of finding the next Allen, what if the Giants drafted a game manager with good wheels who can lead a run-first team, in a paired down system as he grows? And what if that guy came at a 4 year, 30M price tag? That would be better, no?

The fear of getting better is common on the board. Just think about this - the Giants may finish in last place.

And before all the excuse makers line up for Jones (and I do think the supporting cast is a major problem), go look at the supporting cast Carson Wentz had back in 2019 and he navigated the Eagles to the playoffs.

It’s quite simple for me. If this team misses the playoffs, I would be shocked if Jones is back in any capacity. He’s got some pressure on him now.

for whatever its worth, there are multiple clips on twitter from the Lions game about Jones progressing through his reads fairly quickly and shows a pretty nice improvement in that area

In comment 15918706 Gatorade Dunk said:

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In comment 15918662 joeinpa said: Quote: In the meadow land winds Sunday, made me wonder once again why some question his arm talent. I m thinking if season ended today, Giants want to bring him back. In the last two weeks I watched Josh Allen implode with game on the line, and Justin Herbert throw a bad looking interception to end the game, even great quarterbacks make mistakes. So far this season Daniel makes fewer and leads the league in game winning drives, an inconvenient truth for some. DJ's most ardent defenders love to throw the game winning drives stat into the discussion this year because they seem to think it's their ace in the hole. Guess what? If your QB leads you to a 2 TD lead in the 3rd quarter (for example), and your team holds onto the lead the rest of the way, your QB doesn't get credited with a game winning drive at all. Playing a lot of close games, and playing from behind, gives a QB a lot more opportunities for game winning drives. And there's no requirement that the QB even throw the ball to get credited with a game winning drive in those close games. Several of the top QBs on really good teams don't get very many GWD opportunities at all. If the best QBs have fewer GWD opportunities in the first place, are we certain that having more GWD is a particularly strong indicator of QB performance? It seems like a silly stat for fans who have nothing else they can cling to.

Weak argument GD. Wreaks of "yeah but" itself....fact is the Giants are not a good team. The staff does it's best to keep it close so that they can eke ahead in the 4th quarter. The fact does remain he has 5 come from behind wins in the 4th qtr.

Now that the defense is a physical wreck, they will need to try a different tactic.

and now he is, that isn't notable? Other team's QB's get credit for it, why shouldn't ours? Its not playing a trump card, its stating a simple fact that he's a lot better this year and the wins are proving it. Is it sustainable? We will see.

Both extremes are so dug in, its really odd. Its pretty easy to see that Jones isn't a top tier QB but he's having a positive effect on the 2022 NY Giants, much more so than he ever has in the past. Why you guys won't play in the gray area is strange.

In comment 15918719 section125 said:

Quote:

In comment 15918706 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 15918662 joeinpa said: Quote: In the meadow land winds Sunday, made me wonder once again why some question his arm talent. I m thinking if season ended today, Giants want to bring him back. In the last two weeks I watched Josh Allen implode with game on the line, and Justin Herbert throw a bad looking interception to end the game, even great quarterbacks make mistakes. So far this season Daniel makes fewer and leads the league in game winning drives, an inconvenient truth for some. DJ's most ardent defenders love to throw the game winning drives stat into the discussion this year because they seem to think it's their ace in the hole. Guess what? If your QB leads you to a 2 TD lead in the 3rd quarter (for example), and your team holds onto the lead the rest of the way, your QB doesn't get credited with a game winning drive at all. Playing a lot of close games, and playing from behind, gives a QB a lot more opportunities for game winning drives. And there's no requirement that the QB even throw the ball to get credited with a game winning drive in those close games. Several of the top QBs on really good teams don't get very many GWD opportunities at all. If the best QBs have fewer GWD opportunities in the first place, are we certain that having more GWD is a particularly strong indicator of QB performance? It seems like a silly stat for fans who have nothing else they can cling to. Weak argument GD. Wreaks of "yeah but" itself....fact is the Giants are not a good team. The staff does it's best to keep it close so that they can eke ahead in the 4th quarter. The fact does remain he has 5 come from behind wins in the 4th qtr. Now that the defense is a physical wreck, they will need to try a different tactic.

I get it, but the fact remains that the elite QBs playing on championship contenders might not have 5 GWD opportunities per season to begin with, so it shouldn't be surprising or all that exciting for DJ to have more GWD than Mahomes, for example.

DJ leading the league in GWD is a positive, sure, but I was just pointing out that it's also misleading. A better team will be in GWD situations less frequently than a middle-of-the-pack (or worse) team, so those QBs will have fewer GWDs simply because their team isn't playing from behind or tied in the 4th quarter as often.

If the number of opportunities for a GWD is decreased by a stronger team (and stronger QB play, going hand in hand), then the GWD stat isn't especially insightful as a counting stat. I could see some merit in GWD percentage instead, but that seems like a slog to compile the data.

In comment 15918731 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

and now he is, that isn't notable? Other team's QB's get credit for it, why shouldn't ours? Its not playing a trump card, its stating a simple fact that he's a lot better this year and the wins are proving it. Is it sustainable? We will see. Both extremes are so dug in, its really odd. Its pretty easy to see that Jones isn't a top tier QB but he's having a positive effect on the 2022 NY Giants, much more so than he ever has in the past. Why you guys won't play in the gray area is strange.

My honest answer, and I can only speak for myself: I won't play in the gray area because the QB market suggests that there is no gray area when it comes to veteran QB contracts. That's just the way I see it, and for me, the DJ question has always been rooted in the value of his next contract (and how that impacts the goal of building a winning roster under the salary cap).

So in that context, what's the point of the gray area, if my honest belief is that DJ's next contract will either land with the sub-$20M journeyman/bridge tier, or the $35M+ "franchise QB" tier? That is a binary first-step question, IMO, and it admittedly dismisses the possibility (or relevance) of a gray area right from the start.

Is DJ worth less than $20M or more than $35M (AAV)? Any gray area just defines which of those two outcomes he's closer to, but I fully admit that I'm pretty locked into my belief that only a tag would stand in the way of one of those two contract value outcomes, with no in between (although I could see the upper limit of the lower price tier creep up a bit to maybe $22M, which is where I could see Geno landing).

I really have no memory of D Jones putting together "game winning drives" and excellent plays as a result.

ELi had so many game winning drives with memorable plays throughout and big time , crunch time throws like against the Eagles abd Bears to Plaxico Buress ; and Mannignham etc.

My memories of Gaints game winning drives is of jones handing a ball off to Barkley and watching him break a defenders ankles and running 40 yards down the field. If he can't do that , they lose like they did to the Lions.

In comment 15918698 section125 said:

Quote:

In comment 15918693 HomerJones45 said: Quote: In comment 15918662 joeinpa said: Quote: In the meadow land winds Sunday, made me wonder once again why some question his arm talent. I m thinking if season ended today, Giants want to bring him back. In the last two weeks I watched Josh Allen implode with game on the line, and Justin Herbert throw a bad looking interception to end the game, even great quarterbacks make mistakes. So far this season Daniel makes fewer and leads the league in game winning drives, an inconvenient truth for some. Joe going down fighting. One can only admire the tenacity. There is not a GM in the League that would take Jones over Allen or Herbert so stop right there. Nice try. That is not what he said at all. In fact, he said if Allen and Herbert can implode(suggesting they are upper tier QBs) then why couldn't Jones(a lower tier QB)... You are right, no GM would take Jones over those two. In fact, even DG would have taken Herbert over Jones had he come out that year - we know that.

You compare two qb's carrying their two minute offenses on their backs with one who is being carried on the back of his running back even during his "game winning drives". No wonder Barkley is exhausted. Apples and oranges.

In comment 15918752 Atari2600 said:

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I really have no memory of D Jones putting together "game winning drives" and excellent plays as a result. ELi had so many game winning drives with memorable plays throughout and big time , crunch time throws like against the Eagles abd Bears to Plaxico Buress ; and Mannignham etc. My memories of Gaints game winning drives is of jones handing a ball off to Barkley and watching him break a defenders ankles and running 40 yards down the field. If he can't do that , they lose like they did to the Lions.

This!

I keep reading about all the game winning drives Jones has "led". I can remember only two; New Orleans last year and one this year. I don't remember who that was against this year, I think it was week 3 or 4.

As you noted, all but one of those game winning drives this year were due to Barkley ripping off some huge 4th quarter runs.

Quote:

Wait. Are did you really just say that people can’t prove that Jones is playing with poor receivers? Holy shitballs. What’s next, nobody can prove that the interior OL has played poorly? You are a complete assclown if you honestly think Jones hasn’t been affected by a horrific cast of characters they’re trotting out there every week. I’ve said it a million times that I don’t think Jones is the answer but you need to pull your head out of the sand. It’s ok to question Jones while also admitting his situation has been the worst in the league since he was drafted

So you're changing it now from "worst in the league" to "poor receivers?" It is really these broad generalizations that I know as some fan that only watches one team you have no idea what you're really talking about. Things like "worst receivers in the NFL" and "worst situation since drafted" or whatever.

The fact is you really don't know how much Jones is affecting his receivers. Toney shows up the Chiefs and puts up a TD and a 90 yard game but he didn't even feel like playing here. And I am not saying they are the best either or even the better WR corp in the NFL. But guess what ?? Who has that luxury?

Only a few lucky QBs like Tua or Jimmy Garapoulo that may not be all that great but are being carried. So freaking what? Some got lucky and some just drew an average to below average hand. Jones is no different in that regard than most other QBs.

Did Jared Goff get this awesome deal when he got traded to the Lions -- the worst freaking sports franchise in all of sports? I have seen a freaking near 40 CHad Powers play without a Beckham and put up respectable numbers all things considered with a worse oline; worse defense ; worse coaches. I have seen him win Championships with TEs that consisted of rookies ; total non NFL TEs like Larry Dornel; total disappointments like Evan Engram. So please spare me this Jones got such a raw deal here BS. Part of it is his fault.

In comment 15918731 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

and now he is, that isn't notable? Other team's QB's get credit for it, why shouldn't ours? Its not playing a trump card, its stating a simple fact that he's a lot better this year and the wins are proving it. Is it sustainable? We will see. Both extremes are so dug in, its really odd. Its pretty easy to see that Jones isn't a top tier QB but he's having a positive effect on the 2022 NY Giants, much more so than he ever has in the past. Why you guys won't play in the gray area is strange.

Jones is playing better than last year. However, I don't see him as having a positive effect. Rather, I see him as having less of a negative impact. With one exception, I don't think any of this year's victories are due to some Jones' heroics.

In comment 15918667 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 15918660 Ron Johnson said: Quote: In comment 15918602 Rory said: Quote: worst case scenario, he falls back to earth he sucks and you get the #1 pick in the 2024 draft. You can always move a veteran QB in a trade later. Look at Darnold/Rosen/Wentz. What QB in in college right now really projects to be a franchise altering QB and is in range for Giants at what could be a mid round pick. This is the question that never gets an answer. No one here is qualified to answer that question.

They aren't qualified to give a fair and accurate evaluation of Jones either but that doesn't stop them.

In comment 15918787 HomerJones45 said:

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You compare two qb's carrying their two minute offenses on their backs with one who is being carried on the back of his running back even during his "game winning drives". No wonder Barkley is exhausted. Apples and oranges.

That is your opinion and only an opinion. I think you'd better go back and watch those games because it was Jones that brought them down the field - one with Barkley in the locker room. That he had the help of Barkley is irrelevant because those two QBs have WRs that can actually get open and catch the ball. Should we exclude that from the reality?

Yes apples and oranges - I agree that those two QBs are better without question. But to say Barkley is the only reason they got the TDs is as bad as saying those two QBs did not need their WRs to get down the field.

In comment 15918819 BlueVinnie said:

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In comment 15918731 UConn4523 said: Quote: and now he is, that isn't notable? Other team's QB's get credit for it, why shouldn't ours? Its not playing a trump card, its stating a simple fact that he's a lot better this year and the wins are proving it. Is it sustainable? We will see. Both extremes are so dug in, its really odd. Its pretty easy to see that Jones isn't a top tier QB but he's having a positive effect on the 2022 NY Giants, much more so than he ever has in the past. Why you guys won't play in the gray area is strange. Jones is playing better than last year. However, I don't see him as having a positive effect. Rather, I see him as having less of a negative impact. With one exception, I don't think any of this year's victories are due to some Jones' heroics.

You are entitled to your opinion and don't really have much of a comment on it other than we must be watching different games. No impact on our victories? Lol, alright.

The whole "well who are you going to get in the draft that's better" argument has never been a strong or compelling counter.

No one here a actually knows. I think Will Levis is a bum. I also thought Josh Allen could never be coached into throwing a football accurately. It doesn't matter what we think. If Daboll can get the best out of Jones there's everyone reason to trust he can identify a better option and maximize it.

Or also maybe not, and we have to wait for Maye next year.

This is simply a timing issue. If Jones wasn't a free agent, his performance would be viewed with more optimism.

If this was his third year, or the Giants picked up his option, I think most fans would be excited for what next year might show.

But that's not reality. He's a free agent and the Giants have to make an expensive choice, with extenuating circumstances.

If you believe the only viable replacement for Jones is a franchise QB, then you believe Jones is a franchise QB. And if you believe Jones is a franchise QB, you believe he deserves 40M a year. Because that's what they all make.

I think it's that simple.

In comment 15918752 Atari2600 said:

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I really have no memory of D Jones putting together "game winning drives" and excellent plays as a result. ELi had so many game winning drives with memorable plays throughout and big time , crunch time throws like against the Eagles abd Bears to Plaxico Buress ; and Mannignham etc. My memories of Gaints game winning drives is of jones handing a ball off to Barkley and watching him break a defenders ankles and running 40 yards down the field. If he can't do that , they lose like they did to the Lions.

Jones doesn't have these signature moments/plays that jump out at me either. In the Packers game, I remember the defensive stand at the end more than anything the offense did. In the Titans game, I remember the great SB run on the two-point conversion and the missed FG by Bullock. In the Ravens game, Jones did have a nice TD pass that cut the lead to 3, but the defense came up big on back-to-back drives that led to short fields for the offense.

To be fair, however, Jones does get credit for orchestrating the drive that led to points that put us ahead for good. And he did have good runs that helped keep the sticks moving.

But there are no moments where you go, "JFC, what a great throw by Jones...!"

what happens with his contract is what it is and while that’s part of the discussion I think it’s fair and honest to separate that from what he’s doing on the field right now.

Yeah, I don’t want to pay him $40m but he’s worth more than he’s being paid now, hence the gray area. And I actually think there’s a decent chance the WB market corrects a bit with so many blunder performances this year.

in exchange for Drake Maye. Talk about a QB prospect with IT.

Hooker go coming off and acl?

An NFL executive with experience negotiating contracts suggested a one-year deal for midlevel money would make the most sense for both parties. Something in the $15 million to $20 million range.

That is assuming there won't be a big, long-term deal out there for Jones.

"He's a bridge to the real future starter," the executive said.

Let me preface my thoughts by saying the 2nd half of the season presents a tougher schedule, I want to see it play out...
but in general I kinda agree with this 'executive',
whoever that guy is. I mean I don't think Jones is a long term solution. Of course they have not given him a lot of help around here as well. Between the O Line and receiver core, tough for a QB.

In comment 15918815 Atari2600 said:

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Quote: Wait. Are did you really just say that people can’t prove that Jones is playing with poor receivers? Holy shitballs. What’s next, nobody can prove that the interior OL has played poorly? You are a complete assclown if you honestly think Jones hasn’t been affected by a horrific cast of characters they’re trotting out there every week. I’ve said it a million times that I don’t think Jones is the answer but you need to pull your head out of the sand. It’s ok to question Jones while also admitting his situation has been the worst in the league since he was drafted So you're changing it now from "worst in the league" to "poor receivers?" It is really these broad generalizations that I know as some fan that only watches one team you have no idea what you're really talking about. Things like "worst receivers in the NFL" and "worst situation since drafted" or whatever. The fact is you really don't know how much Jones is affecting his receivers. Toney shows up the Chiefs and puts up a TD and a 90 yard game but he didn't even feel like playing here. And I am not saying they are the best either or even the better WR corp in the NFL. But guess what ?? Who has that luxury? Only a few lucky QBs like Tua or Jimmy Garapoulo that may not be all that great but are being carried. So freaking what? Some got lucky and some just drew an average to below average hand. Jones is no different in that regard than most other QBs. Did Jared Goff get this awesome deal when he got traded to the Lions -- the worst freaking sports franchise in all of sports? I have seen a freaking near 40 CHad Powers play without a Beckham and put up respectable numbers all things considered with a worse oline; worse defense ; worse coaches. I have seen him win Championships with TEs that consisted of rookies ; total non NFL TEs like Larry Dornel; total disappointments like Evan Engram. So please spare me this Jones got such a raw deal here BS. Part of it is his fault.

LOL - more of your narrative drivel...

Eli also had Plax. And Toomer. And Nicks. And Manningham. And Cruz. And Jacobs. And Bradshaw.

And double LOL that you are actually trying to argue the defenses during the two championship runs were worse than what Jones has had his entire career..

But carry on with your bullshit.

I don't think Jones would settle for a one year deal here.
Would he do that elsewhere, depends on the type of offers that are out there. He might do it?
Oh yeah, my post above that should be receiver corps,
not core. What was I thinking?

In comment 15918900 JonC said:

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in exchange for Drake Maye. Talk about a QB prospect with IT.

.

I haven't seen him play, don't know much about him.
I just saw a quick shot on video, kid has good size...

In comment 15918582 JonC said:

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In comment 15918122 thefan said: Quote: In comment 15918096 JonC said: Quote: The only question is when is the future, and do they offer Jones a deal beyond this season based on him being the best bridge option for 2023. I really don't expect NYG to FT Jones. If they really feel he's worth the FT, then an extension should be completed. Are you sure that bridge isn't named Tyrod Taylor? I think Jones has shown enough so far to warrant the job over Taylor. One key will be do they have eyes on a UFA or college QB to move on and just turn the page. If not, then I'd have to think they would turn to Jones and try to negotiate a short contract to remain. But, then his agent could try and force Jones' way off the team for a better deal, etc. In the end, Taylor could wind up starting by default. Lots of moving parts next offseason.

I agree that Jones is probably better than Taylor, but has he shown enough to warrant it for $20+ million, or more, than Taylor makes next year? $20 million can be used to help build a pretty good roster. I'd take Taylor unless Jones wants to sign a 1 year, $15 million (or less) deal.

To me, no I'd rather work on adding to the overall talent base, let Taylor or another take the reigns, and dig for the next starter.

Taylor is going to be terrible. If we start him I hope we get the #1 pick the following year. I'd rather start some UDFA than Taylor, lol.

This has been a fun year. But championship contention is still 2-3 years out.

Just offer 1 year, $12 M to Jones. If he doesn't take it, offer it to his peers - Brissett, Minshew, Jimmy, maybe some backups with potential, see if anyone else shakes loose. These guys are all similar- it doesn't matter that much which of them we get. Its a starting job, so there is incentive to take it. It would be another year of treading water at QB, but it just depends on what's available in the draft.

Hopefully there will be a guy we like at a place we can get him. Because you can't roll with placeholders at QB forever.

He’s 40-19 as a starter with SF.

In comment 15919178 Jerry in_DC said:

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Just offer 1 year, $12 M to Jones. If he doesn't take it, offer it to his peers - Brissett, Minshew, Jimmy, maybe some backups with potential, see if anyone else shakes loose. These guys are all similar- it doesn't matter that much which of them we get. Its a starting job, so there is incentive to take it. It would be another year of treading water at QB, but it just depends on what's available in the draft. Hopefully there will be a guy we like at a place we can get him. Because you can't roll with placeholders at QB forever.

You do realize that the draft is 7 weeks after FA begins. What makes you think anyone you mentioned will be there in mid-May?

They'll have an idea of what they want to do in the draft.

Or you just sign one of those guys anyway. The timing does make the negotiations tougher because it's not as clear that there is a full time starting job available. But there should be plenty of QBs of this caliber on the market. Some of them will want this job.

In comment 15919058 speedywheels said:

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In comment 15918815 Atari2600 said: Quote: [Quote] LOL - more of your narrative drivel... Eli also had Plax. And Toomer. And Nicks. And Manningham. And Cruz. And Jacobs. And Bradshaw. And double LOL that you are actually trying to argue the defenses during the two championship runs were worse than what Jones has had his entire career.. But carry on with your bullshit.

You’re mixing and matching what I’m saying. The point I was making is that Eli always put up respectable numbers ; even in back half of his career post 2011 and with a Beckham on the sidelines. And what Ahmad Bradshaw was this amazing back? Brandon jacobs was this amazing running back? Mario manningghan isn’t getting fitted for a good jacket any time soon either.

But you go on with your bulls hit that jones isn’t some scrub but it’s everyone else’s fault

In comment 15919785 Atari2600 said:

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Quote: [Quote] LOL - more of your narrative drivel... Eli also had Plax. And Toomer. And Nicks. And Manningham. And Cruz. And Jacobs. And Bradshaw. And double LOL that you are actually trying to argue the defenses during the two championship runs were worse than what Jones has had his entire career.. But carry on with your bullshit. You’re mixing and matching what I’m saying. The point I was making is that Eli always put up respectable numbers ; even in back half of his career post 2011 and with a Beckham on the sidelines. And what Ahmad Bradshaw was this amazing back? Brandon jacobs was this amazing running back? Mario manningghan isn’t getting fitted for a good jacket any time soon either. But you go on with your bulls hit that jones isn’t some scrub but it’s everyone else’s fault

Neither Bradshaw or Jacobs is Barkley, but together they may be better because they offered a 1-2 punch and a rest period for the other without much lost on the field.

Diminishing Eli's receivers is just disingenuous. The Giants now have no one that comes close to that group - Manningham was the #3 WR in that group and is probably better than Slayton.

But, you know, carry one with your diatribe.

In comment 15919800 section125 said:

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In comment 15919785 Atari2600 said: Quote: Quote: [Quote] LOL - more of your narrative drivel... Eli also had Plax. And Toomer. And Nicks. And Manningham. And Cruz. And Jacobs. And Bradshaw. And double LOL that you are actually trying to argue the defenses during the two championship runs were worse than what Jones has had his entire career.. But carry on with your bullshit. You’re mixing and matching what I’m saying. The point I was making is that Eli always put up respectable numbers ; even in back half of his career post 2011 and with a Beckham on the sidelines. And what Ahmad Bradshaw was this amazing back? Brandon jacobs was this amazing running back? Mario manningghan isn’t getting fitted for a good jacket any time soon either. But you go on with your bulls hit that jones isn’t some scrub but it’s everyone else’s fault Neither Bradshaw or Jacobs is Barkley, but together they may be better because they offered a 1-2 punch and a rest period for the other without much lost on the field. Diminishing Eli's receivers is just disingenuous. The Giants now have no one that comes close to that group - Manningham was the #3 WR in that group and is probably better than Slayton. But, you know, carry one with your diatribe.

Good post

a bad year resulting in #1 pick is NOT the worst case scenario.

middle of the road, having overpaid for Jones, and out of reach of the good QB prospects, is the worst case scenario.

FatMan said it a couple of years ago: QB hell is not having a QB that sucks. QB hell is having a mediocre QB not quite good enough, but showing enough to sucker you into spending a couple more years with him. That's the territory Jones is flirting with.

Those of us who hold this view wanted Jones to surge out of that hell territory. Unfortunately, he's showing signs that he might be above that, leaving us wondering if that's good enough to stick with him.