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Raanan on the Daniel Jones decision

Sean : 11/22/2022 7:54 am
This is a good article. And before everyone complains about “another Daniel Jones thread”, I’d argue there should be a pinned thread on Jones. It seems like many people keep saying “QB is set” while forgetting that Jones is a pending free agent. So is Barkley. This is an unprecedented situation for a NFL franchise that is 7-3.

Quote:
One NFC general manager figured the Giants' "best option'' would be to re-sign Jones this offseason. Another executive with a potential NFC playoff team said there is "no way" he would build around the 2019 No. 6 overall pick, citing what he considered an inability to win in traditional drop-back situations, and the Giants' success in Daboll's scaled-back offense.

An NFL executive with experience negotiating contracts suggested a one-year deal for midlevel money would make the most sense for both parties. Something in the $15 million to $20 million range.

That is assuming there won't be a big, long-term deal out there for Jones.

"He's a bridge to the real future starter," the executive said.

Another source pointed to the two-year, $28 million contract ($21 million guaranteed) Jameis Winston signed with the New Orleans Saints this past offseason as an example of what might work with Jones.

Quote:
Jones, 25, might not be so willing to make that deal. He can likely do better on the open market. He has had more recent success than Winston and isn't coming off a serious injury.

But there is an inherent risk to letting Jones test his value. Quarterbacks with far more fleeting success -- Brock Osweiler, Nick Foles and Matt Flynn, to name a few -- have been paid handsomely on the open market.

"While far from perfect, he's young and ascending, and upward of 12 teams will need new quarterbacks next season," ESPN NFL front-office insider Mike Tannenbaum said. "The ball-security issue that plagued him over his first three seasons [36 fumbles] is largely under control this year."

Tannenbaum doesn't think Jones will get anything less than $25 million per year, citing the supply and demand with the position.

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Imagine being a fan of another team  
Jerry in_DC : 11/22/2022 1:11 pm : link
Say the Colts or the Saints or the Bucs. You're getting a new QB and paying him 4 years $120 M....and its Daniel Jones. You've seen him a bit, looked like he was pretty mediocre. Never heard any impartial analyst say he was particularly good. You think you might be missing something so you look up his stats...and it confirms that he's basically 25th in the league every year in every stat.

It would be a riot. This guy? Are you fing kidding me?

Bear in mind, other fans have not been hammered with the Giants PR that Jones is the hardest worker since Thomas Edison of Jesus Christ.

I know fans don't make the calls, but you have to take yourself outside the Giants bubble to look at this stuff. The idea that Jones is valued at $30 M is complete insanity. And if we pay him that much, we are putting ourselves at a massive disadvantage against the rest of the league.
RE: Imagine being a fan of another team  
lax counsel : 11/22/2022 1:16 pm : link
In comment 15918130 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
Say the Colts or the Saints or the Bucs. You're getting a new QB and paying him 4 years $120 M....and its Daniel Jones. You've seen him a bit, looked like he was pretty mediocre. Never heard any impartial analyst say he was particularly good. You think you might be missing something so you look up his stats...and it confirms that he's basically 25th in the league every year in every stat.

It would be a riot. This guy? Are you fing kidding me?

Bear in mind, other fans have not been hammered with the Giants PR that Jones is the hardest worker since Thomas Edison of Jesus Christ.

I know fans don't make the calls, but you have to take yourself outside the Giants bubble to look at this stuff. The idea that Jones is valued at $30 M is complete insanity. And if we pay him that much, we are putting ourselves at a massive disadvantage against the rest of the league.


This is a great point and of course BBI has the blue tinted glassed on. There's no objective measure where this guy is worth anything close to some of the AAV numbers thrown around. If he was the qb of any other team, BBI would be laughing if that team handed out that type of contract for this sort of production. But of course, other teams have shelled out big contracts, so its okay for the Giants to do it as well.
I  
AcidTest : 11/22/2022 1:17 pm : link
could see the Giants giving Jones the FT, even at $31.5M, if he finishes strong, especially with our depleted offense, and the Giants don't think they will be able to draft a QB next year. I don't think using the FT on Jones will prevent them from resigning or signing anyone they want, and it buys them another year. But whether they should use the FT on Jones can't be determined until after the season IMO. Schoen said as much. Jones's evaluation is ongoing.
...  
christian : 11/22/2022 1:18 pm : link
I think many of you know I wanted the Giants to pick up Jones's option if they kept him (I wanted to trade him, but good thing they didn't).

If they tag him, it will cost about 13.5% of the cap. The 5th year option would have been about 10% of the cap.

Effectively, tagging him this year is just a relatively more expensive 5th year option.

He's the perfect candidate for that route. He's a guy worth evaluating for another year before committing multiple 100s of millions of dollars.
BBI has anti blue glasses on  
Carl in CT : 11/22/2022 1:22 pm : link
When it comes to Jones. They don’t realize he is #9 in QBR and what 12 in rating. If he is efficient he should be passing more but when Dallas runs the ball 40 times Prescott here is a god. Get ready for you Zack Wilson type QB or Tyrod Taylor’s 25 interceptions if he lasts 5 games. We will be right back to the Gettlemen era calling for the coach and the GM’s head. Get rid of the rest of the trash on this team and build a freaking team.
RE: I  
ajr2456 : 11/22/2022 1:23 pm : link
In comment 15918136 AcidTest said:
Quote:
could see the Giants giving Jones the FT, even at $31.5M, if he finishes strong, especially with our depleted offense, and the Giants don't think they will be able to draft a QB next year. I don't think using the FT on Jones will prevent them from resigning or signing anyone they want, and it buys them another year. But whether they should use the FT on Jones can't be determined until after the season IMO. Schoen said as much. Jones's evaluation is ongoing.


I’m against this for a couple of reasons. The franchise tag is best used in Barkley from a financial standpoint, even if it’s just to trade him. Also the tag number is likely higher than what he receives AAV on the open market. If someone does offer him a multi year deal with an AAV over $25 million then you can let him walk. What I think will likely happen is he’ll go see what’s on the market and the deals will be similar to what the Giants offered.
RE: BBI has anti blue glasses on  
ajr2456 : 11/22/2022 1:27 pm : link
In comment 15918144 Get ready for you Zack Wilson type QB or Tyrod Taylor’s 25 interceptions if he lasts 5 games. [/quote]

Tyrod Taylor isn’t the answer but we don’t have to make up his faults. He’s been very secure with the ball during his career. In his three seasons he played more than 10 games he averaged 6 interceptions a year when projected over 17 games.

He has 26 interceptions for his career and a career 1.7% interception rate
RE: BBI has anti blue glasses on  
GMen72 : 11/22/2022 1:28 pm : link
In comment 15918144 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
When it comes to Jones. They don’t realize he is #9 in QBR and what 12 in rating. If he is efficient he should be passing more but when Dallas runs the ball 40 times Prescott here is a god. Get ready for you Zack Wilson type QB or Tyrod Taylor’s 25 interceptions if he lasts 5 games. We will be right back to the Gettlemen era calling for the coach and the GM’s head. Get rid of the rest of the trash on this team and build a freaking team.


Points, passing yards, passing TDs, YPA, air yards, the fact DJ throws against 7-9 in the box, Giants being 29th in passing and 21st in points per game....

None of that matters? Just use the one stat that justifies your argument?
Daniel Jones is not an alien life form  
Jerry in_DC : 11/22/2022 1:33 pm : link
He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones.
RE: Daniel Jones is not an alien life form  
Producer : 11/22/2022 1:34 pm : link
In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones.


You win the thread. Very funny.
...  
christian : 11/22/2022 1:35 pm : link
So if we take off the anti-blue glasses and see Jones for the very good QB he is -- it's fair to assume he'll get paid in the neighborhood of a top 13 QB, no?
RE: Daniel Jones is not an alien life form  
BrettNYG10 : 11/22/2022 1:35 pm : link
In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones.


lol
RE: I think they key will be Geno Smith  
Matt M. : 11/22/2022 1:35 pm : link
In comment 15918077 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
will he sign first? If so that should give you a good idea of what to expect for Jones in regards to actual years and dollars. All the other comps won’t matter at that point.
Geno Smith won't be a comp for Jones. His production is dwarfing Jones'.
RE: RE: BBI has anti blue glasses on  
rsjem1979 : 11/22/2022 1:36 pm : link
In comment 15918152 GMen72 said:
Quote:
In comment 15918144 Carl in CT said:


Quote:


When it comes to Jones. They don’t realize he is #9 in QBR and what 12 in rating. If he is efficient he should be passing more but when Dallas runs the ball 40 times Prescott here is a god. Get ready for you Zack Wilson type QB or Tyrod Taylor’s 25 interceptions if he lasts 5 games. We will be right back to the Gettlemen era calling for the coach and the GM’s head. Get rid of the rest of the trash on this team and build a freaking team.



Points, passing yards, passing TDs, YPA, air yards, the fact DJ throws against 7-9 in the box, Giants being 29th in passing and 21st in points per game....

None of that matters? Just use the one stat that justifies your argument?


An even better question would be, if QBR and Passer Rating are so important, what does he think of Jacoby Brissett?
We just watched a game where the worst pass D  
Producer : 11/22/2022 1:36 pm : link
in the league stacked the box to stop Barkley, daring Jones to beat them, and he couldn't. And you want to give that guy a mega deal? Where's the logic.
RE: Daniel Jones is not an alien life form  
christian : 11/22/2022 1:37 pm : link
In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones.


If the Giants choose to walk away from Jones, you'll see know objections from me on BBI.

If the Giants extend Jones at the rate of a top 3rd QB in the NFL, I'll be disappointed they didn't make him prove he can improve year-over-year in Daboll's system.
RE: Daniel Jones is not an alien life form  
Matt M. : 11/22/2022 1:37 pm : link
In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones.
Agreed. Would it be nice to see him in a more talented offense? Sure. But, there are almost 4 seasons of film on him now. As fans we may want to see more. But, I have a feeling this professional regime has a good idea of what they think Jones is now and what he could be based on their first hand experience and past film.
Let it play out?  
Mike from Ohio : 11/22/2022 1:39 pm : link
The guy has been the starter for more than three years. We are 11 games into a 17 game season. What do you think you will see in the next 6 games that will materially change what you have seen for the last 3+ years?

Jones is a great guy and hard worker with some plus physical tools. He can help you win when you have a strong running game and strong defense. He has shown no consistent ability to beat a team from the pocket with his arm. His passing stats are below average for an NFL QB. This is all across three different head coaches.

Daniel Jones is a borderline starter in this league who has ups and downs and has never shown any real consistency. Has he played on shitty teams and had shitty coaches? Abso-fucking-lutely! Does that mean we should pay him like a franchise QB or assume he will just become something he has never been with a better team around him? Abso-fucking-lutely not!

JonC nailed it. Jones may or may not be short term bridge the bridge to the next guy. He is not the guy and they can't pay him like he is.
RE: RE: I  
AcidTest : 11/22/2022 1:42 pm : link
In comment 15918147 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15918136 AcidTest said:


Quote:


could see the Giants giving Jones the FT, even at $31.5M, if he finishes strong, especially with our depleted offense, and the Giants don't think they will be able to draft a QB next year. I don't think using the FT on Jones will prevent them from resigning or signing anyone they want, and it buys them another year. But whether they should use the FT on Jones can't be determined until after the season IMO. Schoen said as much. Jones's evaluation is ongoing.



I’m against this for a couple of reasons. The franchise tag is best used in Barkley from a financial standpoint, even if it’s just to trade him. Also the tag number is likely higher than what he receives AAV on the open market. If someone does offer him a multi year deal with an AAV over $25 million then you can let him walk. What I think will likely happen is he’ll go see what’s on the market and the deals will be similar to what the Giants offered.


It's all too early to determine at this point. But as of now, I think fans are underestimating what Jones will be offered on the open market as a FA. He's a tough, accomplished leader, extends plays with his legs, has reduced his turnovers, and whose deficiencies might well be seen as a function of our moribund offense. It's also a QB-starved league, and it only takes one team to offer him a big deal.

The FT of $31.5M for Jones is almost certainly higher than his AAV on the open market, but unlike a contract, there is no cap hit beyond the year in which the tag is used.

A lot of teams that want a QB also won't be able to draft one, not without giving up a ton of draft capital. And the draft is a crapshoot. Jones is to a large extent a known quantity who will only cost money, not draft picks.

Let's see what happens the rest of the season.
That’s not totally fair  
ajr2456 : 11/22/2022 1:42 pm : link
He was good in high school
RE: That’s not totally fair  
Matt M. : 11/22/2022 1:46 pm : link
In comment 15918179 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
He was good in high school
Not exceptionally. He wasn't a highly regarded prospect.
RE: We just watched a game where the worst pass D  
rsjem1979 : 11/22/2022 1:47 pm : link
In comment 15918167 Producer said:
Quote:
in the league stacked the box to stop Barkley, daring Jones to beat them, and he couldn't. And you want to give that guy a mega deal? Where's the logic.


Too many people are emotionally pot-committed to Jones. They've put so much into him being the guy that they cannot bear to walk away.

You don't have to call someone's raise just because. If someone else is dumb enough to pay him big money to play QB for them, let them.
RE: RE: I think they key will be Geno Smith  
GMen72 : 11/22/2022 1:49 pm : link
In comment 15918163 Matt M. said:
Quote:
In comment 15918077 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


will he sign first? If so that should give you a good idea of what to expect for Jones in regards to actual years and dollars. All the other comps won’t matter at that point.

Geno Smith won't be a comp for Jones. His production is dwarfing Jones'.


Trubisky's stats dwarf Jones' stats...better not start there either.
How  
AcidTest : 11/22/2022 1:54 pm : link
do we know that Jones isn't an alien life form? It's tough to play QB in the NFL. There's no reason to think that might not also be true for aliens.

I agree that three plus years is normally long enough to evaluate a player, especially a QB. But maybe not for Jones. He's been through a lot of coaching changes, OCs, and offensive systems. He also didn't have Barkley for most of 2020 and 2021, and still has a porous OL with few weapons. OTOH, Daboll and Kafka's offense looks tailored to maximize his strengths, and there are still plays where he doesn't see the whole field and therefore open receivers.

The toughest part of the schedule is coming up. If Jones plays well, gets the Giants into the playoffs, and wins a game, he's going to get a lot of big offers in FA, alien or not.
RE: Daniel Jones is not an alien life form  
bw in dc : 11/22/2022 1:55 pm : link
In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones.


Post of the Year candidate.
Here's a thing I can't get past  
Matt M. : 11/22/2022 2:10 pm : link
For 3 years, I have read countless times how the W-L isn't all on Jones. We are quoted various other contributing factors. Now, they are winning and all of a sudden other contributing factors don't matter to our success? We are supposed to just anoint him the present and future at an obscene cap hit just because he's the QB? We are supposed to ignore that he now has a top rushing attack? Or that he has one of the fewest TD totals among all starting QBs? Past losing records weren't enough to judge him, but the current winning record is?

I want to love him. I want the next several weeks to produce a compelling reason to keep him. But, if he's not beating the worst D in the league when they dare him to, he damn well better pull out an all time performance against Dallas, Minny, Washington, and/or Philly and get into the playoffs in order for any kind of payday, in my opinion.
RE: RE: RE: I think they key will be Geno Smith  
UConn4523 : 11/22/2022 2:17 pm : link
In comment 15918185 GMen72 said:
Quote:
In comment 15918163 Matt M. said:


Quote:


In comment 15918077 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


will he sign first? If so that should give you a good idea of what to expect for Jones in regards to actual years and dollars. All the other comps won’t matter at that point.

Geno Smith won't be a comp for Jones. His production is dwarfing Jones'.



Trubisky's stats dwarf Jones' stats...better not start there either.


Geno Smith's contract, if signed first, will 100% be a comp for Jones. You guys keep comparing what he will get vs. Carr, Cousins, etc when there's basically a carbon copy scenario playing out right in Seattle.

As for Trubisky, Jones has shown me way more than what Trubisky ever has. Sucks that it took until year 4 with a competent coaching staff but it is what it is.
The Daniel Jones conversations are among my favorites on BBI.  
Tim in Eternal Blue : 11/22/2022 2:27 pm : link

I look at a few things.

1. The Giants could have picked up Jones 5th year option and paid him 22M next year. If you think they are paying MORE than that, I have a moon to sell you.

2. The lack of dialog with Jones regarding his contract. They were talking to Barkley?

3. They have had to basically run a bare bones, scaled back offense. Take from that what you will.

I personally think the Giants move on from Jones. Probably franchise Barkley and draft both their successors.

We haven’t scored more than 30 points in 39 games. Oct 11 2020. Spin that how ever you want. Jones has been the QB for the majority of that stint. 39 games.
RE: RE: Daniel Jones is not an alien life form  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 11/22/2022 3:09 pm : link
In comment 15918169 Matt M. said:
Quote:
In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said:


Quote:


He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones.

Agreed. Would it be nice to see him in a more talented offense? Sure. But, there are almost 4 seasons of film on him now. As fans we may want to see more. But, I have a feeling this professional regime has a good idea of what they think Jones is now and what he could be based on their first hand experience and past film.


I don’t want to see him in a “more” talented offense. I want to see him in an offense that can truly be called talented. As I’ve said a thousand times, who is the QB around the league who’s succeeding in a situation like this? PFF has the offensive line ranked 31st despite their rushing success. We know what the receivers situation is.

I’m not advocating giving Daniel Jones a big contract. But the there are too many people on BBI who think you can get anyone to do this and I feel like we saw that last season. They ceased to look like a professional football offense. We’ve got BBIdiots saying, “Why didn’t he do anything against the Lions?” As Sy said in his game review, 5 of the 7 offensive linemen were mediocre to flat out terrible. This idea that you put a QB on the field and he just magically starts shooting rainbows out of his ass isn’t real.
RE: I know this is a long thread  
Brown_Hornet : 11/22/2022 3:12 pm : link
In comment 15918056 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
but I think Schoen will have a number for Jones he wont go past. Is it 25M, 30M who knows. At that point we'll see what Jones wants to do. I don't think we are seeing a 100% have to lock him up conversation because I think it would be done by now (and I think rules out 40M+). I like Jones, I do but he could be Salieri to our potential Mozart.
I agree Jim.
It seems like the Jets will be looking for a qb and, if we don't lock  
Ira : 11/22/2022 3:12 pm : link
up Jones, they might look at him.
RE: RE: RE: Daniel Jones is not an alien life form  
GMen72 : 11/22/2022 3:29 pm : link
In comment 15918278 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 15918169 Matt M. said:


Quote:


In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said:


Quote:


He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones.

Agreed. Would it be nice to see him in a more talented offense? Sure. But, there are almost 4 seasons of film on him now. As fans we may want to see more. But, I have a feeling this professional regime has a good idea of what they think Jones is now and what he could be based on their first hand experience and past film.



I don’t want to see him in a “more” talented offense. I want to see him in an offense that can truly be called talented. As I’ve said a thousand times, who is the QB around the league who’s succeeding in a situation like this? PFF has the offensive line ranked 31st despite their rushing success. We know what the receivers situation is.

I’m not advocating giving Daniel Jones a big contract. But the there are too many people on BBI who think you can get anyone to do this and I feel like we saw that last season. They ceased to look like a professional football offense. We’ve got BBIdiots saying, “Why didn’t he do anything against the Lions?” As Sy said in his game review, 5 of the 7 offensive linemen were mediocre to flat out terrible. This idea that you put a QB on the field and he just magically starts shooting rainbows out of his ass isn’t real.


Anything against the Lions? He hasn't done anything against anyone. Before last Sunday, he had 2 (TWO) games with 200 yards passing, none over 215. He's averaging 1 (ONE) passing TD per game. Those are TERRIBLE stats...terrible!

This idea that you keep paying a QB big money hoping he might be good someday is silly. Move on...get better, even if it takes a few years. DJ has a ceiling of Tannehill or Jimmy G...nobody would want the Giants to sign either of those guys.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Daniel Jones is not an alien life form  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/22/2022 3:35 pm : link
In comment 15918317 GMen72 said:
Quote:
In comment 15918278 shockeyisthebest8056 said:


Quote:


In comment 15918169 Matt M. said:


Quote:


In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said:


Quote:


He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones.

Agreed. Would it be nice to see him in a more talented offense? Sure. But, there are almost 4 seasons of film on him now. As fans we may want to see more. But, I have a feeling this professional regime has a good idea of what they think Jones is now and what he could be based on their first hand experience and past film.



I don’t want to see him in a “more” talented offense. I want to see him in an offense that can truly be called talented. As I’ve said a thousand times, who is the QB around the league who’s succeeding in a situation like this? PFF has the offensive line ranked 31st despite their rushing success. We know what the receivers situation is.

I’m not advocating giving Daniel Jones a big contract. But the there are too many people on BBI who think you can get anyone to do this and I feel like we saw that last season. They ceased to look like a professional football offense. We’ve got BBIdiots saying, “Why didn’t he do anything against the Lions?” As Sy said in his game review, 5 of the 7 offensive linemen were mediocre to flat out terrible. This idea that you put a QB on the field and he just magically starts shooting rainbows out of his ass isn’t real.



Anything against the Lions? He hasn't done anything against anyone. Before last Sunday, he had 2 (TWO) games with 200 yards passing, none over 215. He's averaging 1 (ONE) passing TD per game. Those are TERRIBLE stats...terrible!

This idea that you keep paying a QB big money hoping he might be good someday is silly. Move on...get better, even if it takes a few years. DJ has a ceiling of Tannehill or Jimmy G...nobody would want the Giants to sign either of those guys.


The idea that you keep on your act is even more silly. Shockey makes some solid points and I see very few advocating paying him big money especially with 7 very big games in front of him.

I don't think comparing QB's is the way to go considering this is a team game. But both JG and MT have both had numerous playoff opportunities and have played in multiple big stakes games.

These last 7 games are really the first time this team is positioned to have something close to that environment. Lots to be learned these next games and not just Jones.
RE: It seems like the Jets will be looking for a qb and, if we don't lock  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/22/2022 3:37 pm : link
In comment 15918284 Ira said:
Quote:
up Jones, they might look at him.


The Jets are run better than that these days. He's got years left on his rookie deal and they still have Flacco and White. If they want to go the veteran game manager route there's more sure things than Daniel Jones.
Who are the 12 teams that this GM  
eclipz928 : 11/22/2022 3:40 pm : link
thinks will be in the market for a starting QB next year? Likely the Colts, Texans, and Panthers - maybe the Jets, Commanders, Bucs, and Falcons. That's probably about it, and 2 or 3 of them are likely to get their starting QB in the next draft. There won't be much of a market for Jones.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Daniel Jones is not an alien life form  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 11/22/2022 3:43 pm : link
In comment 15918317 GMen72 said:
Quote:


Anything against the Lions? He hasn't done anything against anyone. Before last Sunday, he had 2 (TWO) games with 200 yards passing, none over 215. He's averaging 1 (ONE) passing TD per game. Those are TERRIBLE stats...terrible!

This idea that you keep paying a QB big money hoping he might be good someday is silly. Move on...get better, even if it takes a few years. DJ has a ceiling of Tannehill or Jimmy G...nobody would want the Giants to sign either of those guys.


Do you think Justin Herbert is good? I do. I think he’s great. Do you believe it’s a coincidence that 2 of his 3 worst games this season occurred when he didn’t have Keenan Allen and Mike Williams? Even guys who’re really, really good need good players around them. In the two decent seasons for Daniel Jones, his best receiver has been Darius Slayton.

Like I said before, I’m certainly not advocating signing Jones to a big deal. I just think a lot of people on BBI are in for a rude awakening if you think you can put just anyone on a roster like this and get production and results. Honestly, I don’t think the coach likes Daniel Jones as a player. Maybe he’s dreaming about another Josh Allen. And I’m dreaming about Rihanna giving me half of her money.
 
christian : 11/22/2022 3:45 pm : link
I give ryanmkeane credit for taking a stance and saying he wants to keep Jones at 40M a year. If Jones is this clear cut good quarterback, that’s what he’ll get. Next year we can expect 1/3 of the starters to make 40M.

Personally, I don’t know if Jones is a clear cut good starting quarterback.

My bet is he’s not, but he’s looked a lot better this year than I could have ever imagined. And I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibilities he improves year-over-year under the expert guidance of Daboll.

This is why I think it’s highly likely Jones gets a 5th year. Which isn’t an unprecedented leash for a QB.
Geno Smith?  
Atari2600 : 11/22/2022 3:45 pm : link
What comparison is that? Let's wait until someone is in like in their 9th year or whatever; fourth team ; and like 32 years old to finally have a year. If Russ Wilson didn't get hurt his last start would have have been 2017 on the Giants and that was with another team sandwhiched in the middle there that just kept him on the bench.
RE: Who are the 12 teams that this GM  
section125 : 11/22/2022 3:47 pm : link
In comment 15918344 eclipz928 said:
Quote:
thinks will be in the market for a starting QB next year? Likely the Colts, Texans, and Panthers - maybe the Jets, Commanders, Bucs, and Falcons. That's probably about it, and 2 or 3 of them are likely to get their starting QB in the next draft. There won't be much of a market for Jones.


Giants, Saints, maybe the Patriots, maybe the Ravens(if Lamar goes), Seahawks
I could see the Jets going for Jones  
Jerry in_DC : 11/22/2022 3:48 pm : link
Hes certainly better than Wilson right now. Jones would be in competition with guys like Brissett, Jimmy, Minshew, Trubisky, Mariota and maybe some backups like Rush or Huntley for jobs like that. I'm not sure of everyone's contract status on that list.

Teams that are looking for adequate seat warmers will be interested in Jones at the right price.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Daniel Jones is not an alien life form  
GMen72 : 11/22/2022 3:50 pm : link
In comment 15918327 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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In comment 15918317 GMen72 said:


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In comment 15918278 shockeyisthebest8056 said:


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In comment 15918169 Matt M. said:


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In comment 15918156 Jerry in_DC said:


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He does not require 5 years of evaluation. The nuclear bomb was built in substantially less time than seems necessary to evaluate Daniel Jones.

Agreed. Would it be nice to see him in a more talented offense? Sure. But, there are almost 4 seasons of film on him now. As fans we may want to see more. But, I have a feeling this professional regime has a good idea of what they think Jones is now and what he could be based on their first hand experience and past film.



I don’t want to see him in a “more” talented offense. I want to see him in an offense that can truly be called talented. As I’ve said a thousand times, who is the QB around the league who’s succeeding in a situation like this? PFF has the offensive line ranked 31st despite their rushing success. We know what the receivers situation is.

I’m not advocating giving Daniel Jones a big contract. But the there are too many people on BBI who think you can get anyone to do this and I feel like we saw that last season. They ceased to look like a professional football offense. We’ve got BBIdiots saying, “Why didn’t he do anything against the Lions?” As Sy said in his game review, 5 of the 7 offensive linemen were mediocre to flat out terrible. This idea that you put a QB on the field and he just magically starts shooting rainbows out of his ass isn’t real.



Anything against the Lions? He hasn't done anything against anyone. Before last Sunday, he had 2 (TWO) games with 200 yards passing, none over 215. He's averaging 1 (ONE) passing TD per game. Those are TERRIBLE stats...terrible!

This idea that you keep paying a QB big money hoping he might be good someday is silly. Move on...get better, even if it takes a few years. DJ has a ceiling of Tannehill or Jimmy G...nobody would want the Giants to sign either of those guys.



The idea that you keep on your act is even more silly. Shockey makes some solid points and I see very few advocating paying him big money especially with 7 very big games in front of him.

I don't think comparing QB's is the way to go considering this is a team game. But both JG and MT have both had numerous playoff opportunities and have played in multiple big stakes games.

These last 7 games are really the first time this team is positioned to have something close to that environment. Lots to be learned these next games and not just Jones.


There's multiple people on this board that think we should franchise tag him at $45 million. Others are saying a multiple year deal at $25-30 million.

Funny that we can't compare QBs on stats, when DJs aren't good...but we can use other QB's salaries? That's silly! You have to compare stats. You can't just take a QB with 175 yards per game passing and 15 TDs per year, and say he should make this or that because that would make you happy...you have to look at what QBs who throw for those stats make on average. That's how Schoen will negotiate...he's not gonna give DJ a big contract to make you, or this board, happy...that's how Gettkeman operated.

You're also right...you can't compare DJ to Tannehill. MT has 5 season with 3700+ yards passing and one with 33 TDs...let me know when DJ gets anywhere near either of those. Trubisky has better career stats.

Sorry it doesn't fit your argument...but stats matter.
RE: Who are the 12 teams that this GM  
bw in dc : 11/22/2022 4:01 pm : link
In comment 15918344 eclipz928 said:
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thinks will be in the market for a starting QB next year? Likely the Colts, Texans, and Panthers - maybe the Jets, Commanders, Bucs, and Falcons. That's probably about it, and 2 or 3 of them are likely to get their starting QB in the next draft. There won't be much of a market for Jones.


There could be others if the dominoes fall a certain way. If the Raiders jettison Carr, for example. that could be a landing spot.

I'm almost willing to remove ATL. Mariota has played very well this year.

I thought about Seattle, too. But if Geno keeps on his current pace, I think it gets very tough for them to bring in a player like Jones who probably isn't a major upgrade over Geno. And my guess is they can keep him at a cheaper contract than Jones because of his age and the likelihood there won't be a lot of teams, IMV, viewing Geno as a long-term solution at QB. Unless teams view him as a QB mercenary...

Maybe Detroit? Jones is more athletic than Goff, but I think Goff is a better pocket passer. But that could be interesting.
THis has to be the oddest  
Atari2600 : 11/22/2022 4:02 pm : link
thing in NY Sports Franchise history. Said it before , I'll say it again. i have never seen such a fan support the most mediocre MFer in all of NY sports .

Conforto eh whatever let him walk. Oakley loved him but you are not winning a championship with him. Ewing they play better without him . Degrom Daniel Murphy you name it. All of these guys did something . Jones has not done jack shit except play "his ass off" "play tough" have a big dong or whatever unquantifiable thing the Jones crew wants them to break out a 30 mil a year check for. I saw a 6 mil back up Jimmy Garapolo throw 4 Tds last night. That is only 2 fewer than Jones has thrown all year

Oh but interrior oline ; skills players balh blah. You know what I say: So freaking what? You don't pay 30 mil a year just to see what is behind door #2
RE: RE: Who are the 12 teams that this GM  
eclipz928 : 11/22/2022 4:05 pm : link
In comment 15918356 section125 said:
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In comment 15918344 eclipz928 said:


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thinks will be in the market for a starting QB next year? Likely the Colts, Texans, and Panthers - maybe the Jets, Commanders, Bucs, and Falcons. That's probably about it, and 2 or 3 of them are likely to get their starting QB in the next draft. There won't be much of a market for Jones.



Giants, Saints, maybe the Patriots, maybe the Ravens(if Lamar goes), Seahawks

... but even if you include those teams, you still have to factor in the competition that results from those teams moving on from their current QBs. It would mean that Jameis Winston, Mac Jones, Lamar Jackson, and/or Geno Smith would become available via free agency or trade in addition to the other available QBs who will be looking for an opportunity.
RE: RE: It seems like the Jets will be looking for a qb and, if we don't lock  
UConn4523 : 11/22/2022 4:05 pm : link
In comment 15918336 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 15918284 Ira said:


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up Jones, they might look at him.



The Jets are run better than that these days. He's got years left on his rookie deal and they still have Flacco and White. If they want to go the veteran game manager route there's more sure things than Daniel Jones.


If the Jets are run well then they will know that Wilson, Flacco and White are all wastes of time. I'm not saying they want or should want Jones, but Jones is a clear upgrade for them.
Mariota does less than Jones  
Jerry in_DC : 11/22/2022 4:06 pm : link
Hes following directions I'm sure, but they do nothing in the passing game. If anything they'd go with Ridder next year. Mariota is just a placeholder.
gmen7  
Lines of Scrimmage : 11/22/2022 4:08 pm : link
Stats matter when you understand the talent around the QB. Until you understand the variables around the QB it does no good using them as primary argument to evaluating a QB.

When you understand the talent you can set expectations.

You showing why Jones should have far better stats means something. You saying his stats need to be much better means nothing to me.

His two primary weapons to start the year have/had less than 10 catches combined (one is now gone). Robinson was hurt the first QTR of the first game. Just as he was getting his feet wet in the league he is now out for the season. His TE that was one of the better players on the team (in BD's words) has been out.

Who is Jones supposed to be accumulating all these stats with on top of the OL issues mentioned?

I am not even a big pro Jones guy but some of this stuff you see on these posts is ridiculous when it comes to QB's.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Daniel Jones is not an alien life form  
rsjem1979 : 11/22/2022 4:10 pm : link
In comment 15918349 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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Do you think Justin Herbert is good? I do. I think he’s great. Do you believe it’s a coincidence that 2 of his 3 worst games this season occurred when he didn’t have Keenan Allen and Mike Williams? Even guys who’re really, really good need good players around them. In the two decent seasons for Daniel Jones, his best receiver has been Darius Slayton.



That's why you evaluate QBs by things you can measure, and observe objectively.

Justin Herbert, by virtually every criteria used to evaluate QBs, is better than Daniel Jones, by a lot. Let's not even bother comparing arm strength because that's like comparing a water gun to a surface-to-air missile.

Maybe the only thing Jones has on Herbert is straight line speed, but even given that, Herbert has much better footwork in the pocket, and is more elusive.

And aside from speed, Jones is very average across the board. That's being generous with regard to his processing speed, which has always been the knock on him, and nothing suggest that's he's gotten or will get any better in that area.

Have the Giants put a good team around Jones? No. Does that mean that Jones would be an upper echelon NFL QB if they did?

Also no.
I think any QB that makes basic throws  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/22/2022 4:11 pm : link
And doesn't buttfumble would be an upgrade for them. My sole point is that the possibility of losing him to the Jets isn't fear motivation to sign him.
Who is better  
Spiciest Memelord : 11/22/2022 4:26 pm : link
Giants wide receivers or Duke wide receivers?
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