Earnest Gray, Johnny Perkins, Byron Williams, Stacy Robinson, Lionel Manuel, Bobby Johnson, Odessa Turner, Mark Ingram, and Stephen Baker. Not exactly a fountain of receiving talent there.
You left off Mark Bávaro and I’m sure Tiki Barber caught a lot of passes too.
Yeah, it's close.
Gray, Perkins, Robinson were all second rounders. Ingram was a 1, Baker a three and Turner and Bavaro were 4s. Manuel was a 7th.
Slayton was a fifth, Hodgins was a sixth, Cager, Hudson, Myrick and Johnson were not drafted.
Yep, very comparable.
There’s obviously not a great answer to the QB question
Baker is my answer. No one’s going to give him a big contract at this stage and he’s an upgrade in my opinion.
You think DJ has been put in a bad environment? Take a look at what Baker’s been through. A perfect “buy low” situation.
JimG might be interesting, too. He's playing pretty well. But he might continue to be on a year-to-year deals based on this stigma he is success is more the system than him.
I'd give him a long, long look for a one-year deal...
RE: The DJFC asks how we could possibly improve on DJ.
Baker is my answer. No one’s going to give him a big contract at this stage and he’s an upgrade in my opinion.
You think DJ has been put in a bad environment? Take a look at what Baker’s been through. A perfect “buy low” situation.
The knock on Baker is that you surround him with tons of SB caliber talent in Cleveland and he pretty much sucked.
2020, when they had their best roster he was good in the regular season and the post season. They were a fumble through the end zone from going to the AFC title game.
RE: RE: RE: Phil Simms had a damned fine career throwing to guys like...
Earnest Gray, Johnny Perkins, Byron Williams, Stacy Robinson, Lionel Manuel, Bobby Johnson, Odessa Turner, Mark Ingram, and Stephen Baker. Not exactly a fountain of receiving talent there.
You left off Mark Bávaro and I’m sure Tiki Barber caught a lot of passes too.
Yeah, it's close.
Gray, Perkins, Robinson were all second rounders. Ingram was a 1, Baker a three and Turner and Bavaro were 4s. Manuel was a 7th.
Slayton was a fifth, Hodgins was a sixth, Cager, Hudson, Myrick and Johnson were not drafted.
Yep, very comparable.
Nice catch k2….I didn’t have any recollection when those guys were drafted. Barely remember some of them.
once again thank you so much for these reviews. I think you can scale back on the recap to only the highlights/lowlights.
I think this game put the nail in Jones' coffin for a long contract. He was pretty bad on a few short throws to open guys. I was hoping that Daboll had sorted him out as he improved each week. After that game, I think Schoen and Daboll saw all they needed to see.
Now, I will disagree with you on Dak in this game. I would rate him as you do vs the other QBs in the league and think he is a lot better than BBI gives him credit for. However, he was just throwing balls in Lamb's direction and the guy was making one hand grabs and abusing the DBs. Jones does not have anyone, anywhere near that level of competence at WR. Throw in Gallup who was dragging Flott down the field like toilet paper stuck to his shoe. Those guys just outmuscled the Giants DBs. Yes Dak got the balls out and near his WRs, but you need to be fair about it. It wasn't that Dak did anything special IMV, he just got it out near his WRs and when you are throwing against the 4th and 5th string CBs you have a VG chance of a completion. Yes, Dak was stout in the pocket and I am not diminishing that. He stood in there and got smacked. I know I was feeling pretty frustrated that he kept getting completions in spite of decent pressure.
Anyway, just my POV.
I think this game really exposed the short comings of both Jones and
I don't think Barkley gets resigned unless Mara gets involved.
Jones is a low end starting QB and should only get paid as such.
If I were Dabol I would tell Jones and Barkley if you want the big money now is the time to earn it. No more excuses. You two are supposed to be our best players, well than, elevate the play of those around you.
once again thank you so much for these reviews. I think you can scale back on the recap to only the highlights/lowlights.
I think this game put the nail in Jones' coffin for a long contract. He was pretty bad on a few short throws to open guys. I was hoping that Daboll had sorted him out as he improved each week. After that game, I think Schoen and Daboll saw all they needed to see.
Now, I will disagree with you on Dak in this game. I would rate him as you do vs the other QBs in the league and think he is a lot better than BBI gives him credit for. However, he was just throwing balls in Lamb's direction and the guy was making one hand grabs and abusing the DBs. Jones does not have anyone, anywhere near that level of competence at WR. Throw in Gallup who was dragging Flott down the field like toilet paper stuck to his shoe. Those guys just outmuscled the Giants DBs. Yes Dak got the balls out and near his WRs, but you need to be fair about it. It wasn't that Dak did anything special IMV, he just got it out near his WRs and when you are throwing against the 4th and 5th string CBs you have a VG chance of a completion. Yes, Dak was stout in the pocket and I am not diminishing that. He stood in there and got smacked. I know I was feeling pretty frustrated that he kept getting completions in spite of decent pressure.
Anyway, just my POV.
Dak is a top 10-12 guy...very overrated mainly because he is the Cowboys QB.
He needs to win a playoff game to elevate above this current level.
DJ was playing to a top 15-17 level...until these last 2 games...where he has reverted back to 20-23 type level.
Both he and Saquon are driving all of us nuts because we all know what happens when the season ends and we have to make some of the biggest decisions in a long time with these 2..
The decision on Jones is going to be based, in part, on what is asking price is. If he’s asking for a long term contract at big dollars, it’ll be an easy decision. If he’s asking for a short term contract at a reasonable amount, it might also be easy. The in between is the problem.
With Barkley, it might also be easy. If he wants to be paid as one of the highest paid RBs, if not the highest, that’s one thing. On the other hand, if he is playing hurt, considering the amount of time he’s missed over the past few years, or played hurt over the past few year, I don’t think Schoen will want to deal with that.
Dak is putrid and benefits from superior talent around him.
Barkley is either dinged or making
Hes not putrid in any way. This is the Giants fan in you talking. You want to argue that he's not top 10, go for it, but 'putrid' is not Prescott, it's flatly inaccurate.
RE: The DJFC asks how we could possibly improve on DJ.
with Jones as a short term, low cost, solution. The alternatives aren't that attractive.
The vibe coming from the DJFC side of the fence seems to be, sign him up long term. That isn't all that attractive to me, especially if the cost is higher than 20s/yr with enough guarantees to make it painful to dump him.
Obviously, the full evaluation/decision comes at the end of the year, but we're quite a ways into the season and the waters are just as muddy as when it began. That isn't cause for optimism.
Might have gotten hit just as much but there is no comparison between quality of receivers. And, Prescott has had way more experience and on much better teams
Giants played them fairly closely both games. Giants are clearly in a rebuild and don't have the horses. Think people are overrating win against Vikes.
Cowboys have a knack for underperforming in the playoffs. Don't see them having guaranteed against any of the following teams - Bucs, Eagles, or 49ers.
One note re: Pollard - probably better at this point in Zeke;s career, but he's not Zeke. Zeke did not get enough credit for his toughness, breaking tackles.
with Jones as a short term, low cost, solution. The alternatives aren't that attractive.
The vibe coming from the DJFC side of the fence seems to be, sign him up long term. That isn't all that attractive to me, especially if the cost is higher than 20s/yr with enough guarantees to make it painful to dump him.
Obviously, the full evaluation/decision comes at the end of the year, but we're quite a ways into the season and the waters are just as muddy as when it began. That isn't cause for optimism.
if BM was mentioned as a long term solution, or merely as a stopgap.
Personally, I think it is rare to find a long term solution thru FA. It can happen. Wayyy more often, the FA QBs are either stopgap, or a discovery of why the original team let the QB go.
But, I think a point to be made is that stopgap alternatives to DJ should be available if DJ gets a better offer, or if one, or both, parties decide to move on. In that light, BM might be a consideration.
Should the unspeakable happen, and Giants fall out of the wild card race, I wouldn't mind seeing what TT can do, to see if he should be the stop gap. Of course, that would put the nail in the coffin on any chance of re-signing DJ.
RE: It's not whether Barkley should have caught the ball or not
But Jones oftem botches critical throws, throwing to the wrong side etc. In this case a properly placed ball is a big play. That's the problem. It was a big play left on the field.
Exactly. The idea that a QB shouldn’t be blamed for a very bad throw is just absurd. He missed on 2 other throws in the flat to James, one of which James made a fantastic catch on. An NFL QB has to make those throws. Hell, a HS QB does too.
Giants played them fairly closely both games. Giants are clearly in a rebuild and don't have the horses. Think people are overrating win against Vikes.
Cowboys have a knack for underperforming in the playoffs. Don't see them having guaranteed against any of the following teams - Bucs, Eagles, or 49ers.
One note re: Pollard - probably better at this point in Zeke;s career, but he's not Zeke. Zeke did not get enough credit for his toughness, breaking tackles.
Agreed, they also have the uninspiring Mike McCarthay as HC. Let’s see how it plays out before crowning their asses.
If you are going to move on from Jones and Barkley
You might as well just tear it down and hope for a new coaching staff to come in and in 4-5 years from now, if by some miracle we have a better QB that we drafted along the way and he's also somehow better than Jones is now, maybe that will be a solution. Daboll, Kafka, and Wink arent going to stick around for years to see that happen.
And a play for Rodgers or something along those lines isnt a solution either.
Jones has turned himself into a solid, if not spectacular, QB. Will he ever be a tier 1 guy? Maybe not. But he still has the arrow pointing up if we can finally get him a few weapons. He's made strides this year with literally nothing and he can continue to make strides as he's only just now reaching his prime.
Will Barkley ever be Jim Brown? Probably not. But again, he's a real solid RB. Probably a top 5 RB in the league.
These arent players you move on from...
Not when you also have your franchise LT, top notch Edge rusher, elite young safety tandem, and quality pieces along the d line already in tow.
If the Giants want to see how far Daboll can take them, they need to keep the nucleus intact and ADD to what we already have. Another draft and some much needed free agency cash next year could do wonders for this team.
The thought of moving on from Jones and Barkley is tiresome and really shows a lack of pulse on what the overall situation with the Giants is right now.
RE: If you are going to move on from Jones and Barkley
You might as well just tear it down and hope for a new coaching staff to come in and in 4-5 years from now, if by some miracle we have a better QB that we drafted along the way and he's also somehow better than Jones is now, maybe that will be a solution. Daboll, Kafka, and Wink arent going to stick around for years to see that happen.
And a play for Rodgers or something along those lines isnt a solution either.
Jones has turned himself into a solid, if not spectacular, QB. Will he ever be a tier 1 guy? Maybe not. But he still has the arrow pointing up if we can finally get him a few weapons. He's made strides this year with literally nothing and he can continue to make strides as he's only just now reaching his prime.
Will Barkley ever be Jim Brown? Probably not. But again, he's a real solid RB. Probably a top 5 RB in the league.
These arent players you move on from...
Not when you also have your franchise LT, top notch Edge rusher, elite young safety tandem, and quality pieces along the d line already in tow.
If the Giants want to see how far Daboll can take them, they need to keep the nucleus intact and ADD to what we already have. Another draft and some much needed free agency cash next year could do wonders for this team.
The thought of moving on from Jones and Barkley is tiresome and really shows a lack of pulse on what the overall situation with the Giants is right now.
You have a point if Jones and Barkley are affordable. If they want break the bank deals, that's where you ask if they're worth it.
RE: If you are going to move on from Jones and Barkley
You might as well just tear it down and hope for a new coaching staff to come in and in 4-5 years from now, if by some miracle we have a better QB that we drafted along the way and he's also somehow better than Jones is now, maybe that will be a solution. Daboll, Kafka, and Wink arent going to stick around for years to see that happen.
And a play for Rodgers or something along those lines isnt a solution either.
Jones has turned himself into a solid, if not spectacular, QB. Will he ever be a tier 1 guy? Maybe not. But he still has the arrow pointing up if we can finally get him a few weapons. He's made strides this year with literally nothing and he can continue to make strides as he's only just now reaching his prime.
Will Barkley ever be Jim Brown? Probably not. But again, he's a real solid RB. Probably a top 5 RB in the league.
These arent players you move on from...
Not when you also have your franchise LT, top notch Edge rusher, elite young safety tandem, and quality pieces along the d line already in tow.
If the Giants want to see how far Daboll can take them, they need to keep the nucleus intact and ADD to what we already have. Another draft and some much needed free agency cash next year could do wonders for this team.
The thought of moving on from Jones and Barkley is tiresome and really shows a lack of pulse on what the overall situation with the Giants is right now.
These are exactly the players you move on from. Barkley, because he's a RB and Jones because if everything is perfect he might win a couple playoff games, but overall he's a passenger and not the driver of the offense.
Why not see what BD et al can do developing raw talent like he did with JA in Buffalo? We gave him a vase and told him to make it a bowl. Let's give him the wet clay and see what he molds
Is that a joke? He is the only reason we are sitting at 7-4.
And what young talent is Daboll going to mold? We arent finding anything better than Jones in the draft after the 15th pick unless it's a project that will take years to develop.
As mentioned before, Kafka and Wink arent going to wait around for that...
No thanks.
Sign Jones to a friendly 4 year deal and tag Barkley. Focus on improving the current roster and getting healthy in 2023.
When they play a team with competent CB they will struggle. Minn has bad CB and the Giants with injuries are worse. Lamb is a good WR, but he is not the stud 1 that Cooper was
Agree Elliott is likely gone but Pollard is a FA as well. Very interesting with him. He has only carried the ball more than 15 times twice in his career but is clearly an excellent player. What do you pay a guy like that
People really need to stop pretending that if we move
Im tired of playing in fairy tale land. Who exactly are the Giants drafting (assume in the 18-32 range) or in the second round that will have a higher ceiling than Jones? We know which QBs are coming out at this point.
Also, I'd like to know how raw they are and how long it will take for them to reach their ceiling. That's relevant because...
if we want to win with this current coaching staff, time isnt on our side.
The next QB could be as bad as Jones. Could even be worse than Jones. But you need a high end QB - not Allen necessarily - but a top 10 guy.
And we can replace what Jones gives us very easily. Draft a guy for upside. Get a mediocre placeholder QB as contingency- could be Jones or any of the other cheap QBs in his class.
If the FO / coaches really don't like any of the QBs available in the draft, maybe we stay in a holding pattern with Jones or one of his peers for another year, but we are going to have to address QB at some point soon.
RE: You think Jones is a passenger on this 7-4 team?
Is that a joke? He is the only reason we are sitting at 7-4.
And what young talent is Daboll going to mold? We arent finding anything better than Jones in the draft after the 15th pick unless it's a project that will take years to develop.
As mentioned before, Kafka and Wink arent going to wait around for that...
No thanks.
Sign Jones to a friendly 4 year deal and tag Barkley. Focus on improving the current roster and getting healthy in 2023.
Lol Barkley and the defense are why they're at 7-4. You think it's coincidence Jones has looked worse when the run game is completely taken away?
It was pretty funny during the Thanksgiving game when the broadcast was talking about the NFCE having the best winning percentage in the NFL, you know what the accompanying graphic was? SB and the three other NFCE QBs.
Jones is completely a passenger
RE: RE: You think Jones is a passenger on this 7-4 team?
Is that a joke? He is the only reason we are sitting at 7-4.
And what young talent is Daboll going to mold? We arent finding anything better than Jones in the draft after the 15th pick unless it's a project that will take years to develop.
As mentioned before, Kafka and Wink arent going to wait around for that...
No thanks.
Sign Jones to a friendly 4 year deal and tag Barkley. Focus on improving the current roster and getting healthy in 2023.
Lol Barkley and the defense are why they're at 7-4. You think it's coincidence Jones has looked worse when the run game is completely taken away?
It was pretty funny during the Thanksgiving game when the broadcast was talking about the NFCE having the best winning percentage in the NFL, you know what the accompanying graphic was? SB and the three other NFCE QBs.
Jones is completely a passenger
This is a clown response. Jones has led us to at least four come from behind victories this year.
Hard to take this site seriously anymore when fans can't wait to
turn on the players.
Jones a passenger? Below average? Terrible?
Are the people saying this the same people that were lobbying to mortgage the future for Russell Wilson in the off-season?
Or were they the ones saying that when Jones went out last season that Fromm and Glennon would be just as good as Jones?
I get people being fired up in game threads saying some dumb shit, but get a hold of yourselves.
that Barkley has been averaging 30 yards the last couple of games? Just strange to think Barkley would have otherwise scored an easy TD from a player who seems to have quit this season.
When you have a QB that nobody respects and puts 8-9 in the box...yeah, that effects Saquon in a big way.
You might as well just tear it down and hope for a new coaching staff to come in and in 4-5 years from now, if by some miracle we have a better QB that we drafted along the way and he's also somehow better than Jones is now, maybe that will be a solution. Daboll, Kafka, and Wink arent going to stick around for years to see that happen.
The thought of moving on from Jones and Barkley is tiresome and really shows a lack of pulse on what the overall situation with the Giants is right now.
The Giants probably won't do it but you're overrating what possibly Jones and Barkley are. As a result, it’s highly possible the other way around that you would have wasted Dabol for several years without nothing more than mediocrity. Then just like with Jones you'd hear "A coach is supposed to elevate his team and ff he can't win . . . "
It's highly possible Barkley gets hurt. It's highly possible Jones is bottom tier mediocre QB which means 3rd or 4th place in the Division. Because they didn’t make moves early - you don’t think in Year 3 three won’t be talk of having these guys fired if they aren’t projected to be a strong team in the Division?
Barkley is a big problem though due to injury and the position he plays. So if you want to talk 3-4 years down the road, where might the Giants offense be with a hurt Barkley? If you think we'd be okay but not a threat to be a title contender, then what's the big dela letting him go?
And as a result, sticking with Jones in mediocrity if he is that might be the worst possible thing for Dabol after 3-4 years.
Sure. Barf. BUT we are only rolling with baker mayfield until we get the next Mahommes. How long could that possibly take?
True! Better to overpay an average QB and never have a shot a being a real SB contender. Always good to make decisions based on fear!
You just aren't bright enough to realize you are never getting Mahomes. You don't make decsions on stupidity. And your comments are nothing but stupidity.
RE: People really need to stop pretending that if we move
on from Jones, we will automatically be able to draft the next Josh Allen in this years draft.
Who is making that assertion?
The goal is to find a better QB than Jones. And that shouldn't be too hard with the right decision makers in place.
Are you really going to be upset if we move on from Jones? Really? Daniel Jones?
He's not Joe Montana. He's not John Elway. He's not Eli Manning. He's not even Joe Flacco.
Jones is one of the more dispensable QBs currently in the NFL.
Well bw, since the chances of the Giants getting a Hall of Fame QB anytime soon are rather low, there are 27 of them in the SB era, who do you want to get? If they move on from Jones the idea would be to improve the position, not just move on from a player you can't stand. Terps isn't around so lets not pontificate that Case Keenum or Mike Glennon would be an improvement.
You do realize Sy said Dak's second half was as good as any he's seen this year. So, I encourage you to direct similar comments to him as well...
You don't consider him part of the anti-Jones crowd...do you?
No, I don’t consider Sy part of the “we must move past Jones” crowd. I think it’s pretty obvious, he is using this whole year and will continue to do so (next 7 games) to evaluate Jones BEFORE rendering his opinion on what the Giants should do.
He is also pretty smart in realizing that if you move on from Jones, who takes his place? Will the next guy be an upgrade? We all know the draft is a gamble having seen time and time again top rated/drafted kids not living up to the hype.
That is also something very important to ponder…
Step one- should I move past Jones
Step two- how and who to replace him
I hope and trust Schoen and Daboll got this….I will accept their opinion over mine (in other words, if they move past Jones, so will I).
I think all rational posters do support letting the season play out. But it's also reasonable to judge each weekly performance by Jones (not suggesting you have an issue with that).
On a replacement idea for Jones, there are various ways to go on that. IMV, the best idea right now is to continue building a better all-around team and find a QB solution in the '23 draft. And I'm very content going through the inevitable growing pains in that process...
One guy I won’t be upset in seeing replace Jones is Herndon Hooker. I know he tore an ACL, and that concerns me, but this may allow for us to draft him late in round one (around 20) if not injured, he would probably be a top 10 pick.
We can draft him and let him slowly recover while playing Tyrod Taylor or Davis Webb (assuming we don’t sign Jones).
Isn’t Hooker as old as DJ?
RE: People really need to stop pretending that if we move
on from Jones, we will automatically be able to draft the next Josh Allen in this years draft.
It's an absurd thought.
For every Allen that makes it, there are 10 similar QB prospects that dont.
And that's assuming we can even pick in the top 10-15, where most of these prospects end up (Newsflash: we wont be next year).
Maybe we win the lottery and strike gold on a prospect and can develop him over a few years, but it's far more likely we dont.
What a backwards way of thinking. So, the Chiefs shoulda just settled for Alex Smith? Bills shoulda settled for Taylor.
Teams get rid of bad/average QBs all the time, and you're right, it doesn't always work out. However, what if it does? What if the Giants end up with a top 5 QB?
With this coaching staff, that already worked miracles with DJ to make him a top 20-25 QB, imagine what could happen if they groomed one from day one. Stop settling for OK...gotta but a ticket to win the lottery.
I'm going to jump through hoops to justify sticking with jones" is no way to live.
You can't ask players to be fearless but build a team around settling for known average because searching for great is hard and scary.
That's great Hammer, but assertations are not a plan. What is the plan? It's great to say we have to improve and it is very cool to say searching for great is hard and scary, but the goal would be to improve the position. I'm all for actually improving the position, if and when there is a reasonable alternative and just sating that search for greatness is hard and scary does nothing for me. The Giants have X amount of money and draft capital, it needs to be used wisely. If we had the 2nd pick in the draft and their is a guy that Schoen loves there than that's one thing, bringing in Andy Dalton because many blame Jones for every problem on the offense is another. BTW if they use all sorts of draft capital to move up for a QB, what is he going to have around him, because if it's this, he is going to have to be very, very special to overcome it.
RE: RE: People really need to stop pretending that if we move
on from Jones, we will automatically be able to draft the next Josh Allen in this years draft.
It's an absurd thought.
For every Allen that makes it, there are 10 similar QB prospects that dont.
And that's assuming we can even pick in the top 10-15, where most of these prospects end up (Newsflash: we wont be next year).
Maybe we win the lottery and strike gold on a prospect and can develop him over a few years, but it's far more likely we dont.
What a backwards way of thinking. So, the Chiefs shoulda just settled for Alex Smith? Bills shoulda settled for Taylor.
Teams get rid of bad/average QBs all the time, and you're right, it doesn't always work out. However, what if it does? What if the Giants end up with a top 5 QB?
With this coaching staff, that already worked miracles with DJ to make him a top 20-25 QB, imagine what could happen if they groomed one from day one. Stop settling for OK...gotta but a ticket to win the lottery.
And you have to realize that winning the lottery is very very difficult to do. Sure buy a ticket, but that can't be the plan.
I'm going to jump through hoops to justify sticking with jones" is no way to live.
You can't ask players to be fearless but build a team around settling for known average because searching for great is hard and scary.
That's great Hammer, but assertations are not a plan. What is the plan? It's great to say we have to improve and it is very cool to say searching for great is hard and scary, but the goal would be to improve the position. I'm all for actually improving the position, if and when there is a reasonable alternative and just sating that search for greatness is hard and scary does nothing for me. The Giants have X amount of money and draft capital, it needs to be used wisely. If we had the 2nd pick in the draft and their is a guy that Schoen loves there than that's one thing, bringing in Andy Dalton because many blame Jones for every problem on the offense is another. BTW if they use all sorts of draft capital to move up for a QB, what is he going to have around him, because if it's this, he is going to have to be very, very special to overcome it.
You've stated the goal pretty clearly. Improve the QB position, but also, improve the talent level of the roster. Both are needed.
What no one seems willing to accept is that the QB improvement may not happen immediately, and that is why they are clutching on to Jones even though he may very well not be good enough. He's good enough for people to receive happiness from regular season wins. He may not be good enough for this coaching staff and GM to fit their vision and plan.
Sticking with Jones at considerable cost because a better option isn't immediately clear is still not a plan. 30 million in franchise tag money for one year of Jones is 30 million in cap dollars not being spent on the 52 other roster spots or re-signing the players worth keeping.
I'm going to jump through hoops to justify sticking with jones" is no way to live.
You can't ask players to be fearless but build a team around settling for known average because searching for great is hard and scary.
That's great Hammer, but assertations are not a plan. What is the plan? It's great to say we have to improve and it is very cool to say searching for great is hard and scary, but the goal would be to improve the position. I'm all for actually improving the position, if and when there is a reasonable alternative and just sating that search for greatness is hard and scary does nothing for me. The Giants have X amount of money and draft capital, it needs to be used wisely. If we had the 2nd pick in the draft and their is a guy that Schoen loves there than that's one thing, bringing in Andy Dalton because many blame Jones for every problem on the offense is another. BTW if they use all sorts of draft capital to move up for a QB, what is he going to have around him, because if it's this, he is going to have to be very, very special to overcome it.
That's why they call it a rebuild.
Enjoy the 7-4 record all you can but don't let it cloud your judgment. There are still some big pieces missing here and work to do to further develop the roster including at QB. All options to upgrade key positions for the future should be explored versus staying the course with a product that has had some short-term but flawed successes.
The goal is to create a team that can truly compete for a championships.
Quote:
Earnest Gray, Johnny Perkins, Byron Williams, Stacy Robinson, Lionel Manuel, Bobby Johnson, Odessa Turner, Mark Ingram, and Stephen Baker. Not exactly a fountain of receiving talent there.
You left off Mark Bávaro and I’m sure Tiki Barber caught a lot of passes too.
Yeah, it's close.
Gray, Perkins, Robinson were all second rounders. Ingram was a 1, Baker a three and Turner and Bavaro were 4s. Manuel was a 7th.
Slayton was a fifth, Hodgins was a sixth, Cager, Hudson, Myrick and Johnson were not drafted.
Yep, very comparable.
Plan B won’t be exciting either. Mayfield is as good a plan B as we are likely to have as an option. In Daboll/Kafka I trust
You think DJ has been put in a bad environment? Take a look at what Baker’s been through. A perfect “buy low” situation.
JimG might be interesting, too. He's playing pretty well. But he might continue to be on a year-to-year deals based on this stigma he is success is more the system than him.
I'd give him a long, long look for a one-year deal...
You think DJ has been put in a bad environment? Take a look at what Baker’s been through. A perfect “buy low” situation.
The knock on Baker is that you surround him with tons of SB caliber talent in Cleveland and he pretty much sucked.
Quote:
Baker is my answer. No one’s going to give him a big contract at this stage and he’s an upgrade in my opinion.
You think DJ has been put in a bad environment? Take a look at what Baker’s been through. A perfect “buy low” situation.
The knock on Baker is that you surround him with tons of SB caliber talent in Cleveland and he pretty much sucked.
In 2020, Mayfield was very good. And I think that Browns roster has been overrated by the media/experts for a few years now...
Quote:
Baker is my answer. No one’s going to give him a big contract at this stage and he’s an upgrade in my opinion.
You think DJ has been put in a bad environment? Take a look at what Baker’s been through. A perfect “buy low” situation.
The knock on Baker is that you surround him with tons of SB caliber talent in Cleveland and he pretty much sucked.
2020, when they had their best roster he was good in the regular season and the post season. They were a fumble through the end zone from going to the AFC title game.
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In comment 15922948 Greg from LI said:
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Earnest Gray, Johnny Perkins, Byron Williams, Stacy Robinson, Lionel Manuel, Bobby Johnson, Odessa Turner, Mark Ingram, and Stephen Baker. Not exactly a fountain of receiving talent there.
You left off Mark Bávaro and I’m sure Tiki Barber caught a lot of passes too.
Yeah, it's close.
Gray, Perkins, Robinson were all second rounders. Ingram was a 1, Baker a three and Turner and Bavaro were 4s. Manuel was a 7th.
Slayton was a fifth, Hodgins was a sixth, Cager, Hudson, Myrick and Johnson were not drafted.
Yep, very comparable.
Nice catch k2….I didn’t have any recollection when those guys were drafted. Barely remember some of them.
I think this game put the nail in Jones' coffin for a long contract. He was pretty bad on a few short throws to open guys. I was hoping that Daboll had sorted him out as he improved each week. After that game, I think Schoen and Daboll saw all they needed to see.
Now, I will disagree with you on Dak in this game. I would rate him as you do vs the other QBs in the league and think he is a lot better than BBI gives him credit for. However, he was just throwing balls in Lamb's direction and the guy was making one hand grabs and abusing the DBs. Jones does not have anyone, anywhere near that level of competence at WR. Throw in Gallup who was dragging Flott down the field like toilet paper stuck to his shoe. Those guys just outmuscled the Giants DBs. Yes Dak got the balls out and near his WRs, but you need to be fair about it. It wasn't that Dak did anything special IMV, he just got it out near his WRs and when you are throwing against the 4th and 5th string CBs you have a VG chance of a completion. Yes, Dak was stout in the pocket and I am not diminishing that. He stood in there and got smacked. I know I was feeling pretty frustrated that he kept getting completions in spite of decent pressure.
Anyway, just my POV.
I don't think Barkley gets resigned unless Mara gets involved.
Jones is a low end starting QB and should only get paid as such.
If I were Dabol I would tell Jones and Barkley if you want the big money now is the time to earn it. No more excuses. You two are supposed to be our best players, well than, elevate the play of those around you.
I think this game put the nail in Jones' coffin for a long contract. He was pretty bad on a few short throws to open guys. I was hoping that Daboll had sorted him out as he improved each week. After that game, I think Schoen and Daboll saw all they needed to see.
Now, I will disagree with you on Dak in this game. I would rate him as you do vs the other QBs in the league and think he is a lot better than BBI gives him credit for. However, he was just throwing balls in Lamb's direction and the guy was making one hand grabs and abusing the DBs. Jones does not have anyone, anywhere near that level of competence at WR. Throw in Gallup who was dragging Flott down the field like toilet paper stuck to his shoe. Those guys just outmuscled the Giants DBs. Yes Dak got the balls out and near his WRs, but you need to be fair about it. It wasn't that Dak did anything special IMV, he just got it out near his WRs and when you are throwing against the 4th and 5th string CBs you have a VG chance of a completion. Yes, Dak was stout in the pocket and I am not diminishing that. He stood in there and got smacked. I know I was feeling pretty frustrated that he kept getting completions in spite of decent pressure.
Anyway, just my POV.
Dak is a top 10-12 guy...very overrated mainly because he is the Cowboys QB.
He needs to win a playoff game to elevate above this current level.
DJ was playing to a top 15-17 level...until these last 2 games...where he has reverted back to 20-23 type level.
Both he and Saquon are driving all of us nuts because we all know what happens when the season ends and we have to make some of the biggest decisions in a long time with these 2..
With Barkley, it might also be easy. If he wants to be paid as one of the highest paid RBs, if not the highest, that’s one thing. On the other hand, if he is playing hurt, considering the amount of time he’s missed over the past few years, or played hurt over the past few year, I don’t think Schoen will want to deal with that.
Dak is putrid and benefits from superior talent around him.
Barkley is either dinged or making
Hes not putrid in any way. This is the Giants fan in you talking. You want to argue that he's not top 10, go for it, but 'putrid' is not Prescott, it's flatly inaccurate.
You think DJ has been put in a bad environment? Take a look at what Baker’s been through. A perfect “buy low” situation.
The Browns were loaded on offense when he was there and he was very ineffective.
The vibe coming from the DJFC side of the fence seems to be, sign him up long term. That isn't all that attractive to me, especially if the cost is higher than 20s/yr with enough guarantees to make it painful to dump him.
Obviously, the full evaluation/decision comes at the end of the year, but we're quite a ways into the season and the waters are just as muddy as when it began. That isn't cause for optimism.
Only on BBI...
Cowboys have a knack for underperforming in the playoffs. Don't see them having guaranteed against any of the following teams - Bucs, Eagles, or 49ers.
One note re: Pollard - probably better at this point in Zeke;s career, but he's not Zeke. Zeke did not get enough credit for his toughness, breaking tackles.
The vibe coming from the DJFC side of the fence seems to be, sign him up long term. That isn't all that attractive to me, especially if the cost is higher than 20s/yr with enough guarantees to make it painful to dump him.
Obviously, the full evaluation/decision comes at the end of the year, but we're quite a ways into the season and the waters are just as muddy as when it began. That isn't cause for optimism.
Only on BBI...
Agree...did they watch the Carolina game? We could have lost if he wasn't constantly missing open receivers. Pass.
Personally, I think it is rare to find a long term solution thru FA. It can happen. Wayyy more often, the FA QBs are either stopgap, or a discovery of why the original team let the QB go.
But, I think a point to be made is that stopgap alternatives to DJ should be available if DJ gets a better offer, or if one, or both, parties decide to move on. In that light, BM might be a consideration.
Should the unspeakable happen, and Giants fall out of the wild card race, I wouldn't mind seeing what TT can do, to see if he should be the stop gap. Of course, that would put the nail in the coffin on any chance of re-signing DJ.
But Jones oftem botches critical throws, throwing to the wrong side etc. In this case a properly placed ball is a big play. That's the problem. It was a big play left on the field.
Exactly. The idea that a QB shouldn’t be blamed for a very bad throw is just absurd. He missed on 2 other throws in the flat to James, one of which James made a fantastic catch on. An NFL QB has to make those throws. Hell, a HS QB does too.
Cowboys have a knack for underperforming in the playoffs. Don't see them having guaranteed against any of the following teams - Bucs, Eagles, or 49ers.
One note re: Pollard - probably better at this point in Zeke;s career, but he's not Zeke. Zeke did not get enough credit for his toughness, breaking tackles.
Agreed, they also have the uninspiring Mike McCarthay as HC. Let’s see how it plays out before crowning their asses.
And a play for Rodgers or something along those lines isnt a solution either.
Jones has turned himself into a solid, if not spectacular, QB. Will he ever be a tier 1 guy? Maybe not. But he still has the arrow pointing up if we can finally get him a few weapons. He's made strides this year with literally nothing and he can continue to make strides as he's only just now reaching his prime.
Will Barkley ever be Jim Brown? Probably not. But again, he's a real solid RB. Probably a top 5 RB in the league.
These arent players you move on from...
Not when you also have your franchise LT, top notch Edge rusher, elite young safety tandem, and quality pieces along the d line already in tow.
If the Giants want to see how far Daboll can take them, they need to keep the nucleus intact and ADD to what we already have. Another draft and some much needed free agency cash next year could do wonders for this team.
The thought of moving on from Jones and Barkley is tiresome and really shows a lack of pulse on what the overall situation with the Giants is right now.
And a play for Rodgers or something along those lines isnt a solution either.
Jones has turned himself into a solid, if not spectacular, QB. Will he ever be a tier 1 guy? Maybe not. But he still has the arrow pointing up if we can finally get him a few weapons. He's made strides this year with literally nothing and he can continue to make strides as he's only just now reaching his prime.
Will Barkley ever be Jim Brown? Probably not. But again, he's a real solid RB. Probably a top 5 RB in the league.
These arent players you move on from...
Not when you also have your franchise LT, top notch Edge rusher, elite young safety tandem, and quality pieces along the d line already in tow.
If the Giants want to see how far Daboll can take them, they need to keep the nucleus intact and ADD to what we already have. Another draft and some much needed free agency cash next year could do wonders for this team.
The thought of moving on from Jones and Barkley is tiresome and really shows a lack of pulse on what the overall situation with the Giants is right now.
You have a point if Jones and Barkley are affordable. If they want break the bank deals, that's where you ask if they're worth it.
And a play for Rodgers or something along those lines isnt a solution either.
Jones has turned himself into a solid, if not spectacular, QB. Will he ever be a tier 1 guy? Maybe not. But he still has the arrow pointing up if we can finally get him a few weapons. He's made strides this year with literally nothing and he can continue to make strides as he's only just now reaching his prime.
Will Barkley ever be Jim Brown? Probably not. But again, he's a real solid RB. Probably a top 5 RB in the league.
These arent players you move on from...
Not when you also have your franchise LT, top notch Edge rusher, elite young safety tandem, and quality pieces along the d line already in tow.
If the Giants want to see how far Daboll can take them, they need to keep the nucleus intact and ADD to what we already have. Another draft and some much needed free agency cash next year could do wonders for this team.
The thought of moving on from Jones and Barkley is tiresome and really shows a lack of pulse on what the overall situation with the Giants is right now.
These are exactly the players you move on from. Barkley, because he's a RB and Jones because if everything is perfect he might win a couple playoff games, but overall he's a passenger and not the driver of the offense.
Why not see what BD et al can do developing raw talent like he did with JA in Buffalo? We gave him a vase and told him to make it a bowl. Let's give him the wet clay and see what he molds
And what young talent is Daboll going to mold? We arent finding anything better than Jones in the draft after the 15th pick unless it's a project that will take years to develop.
As mentioned before, Kafka and Wink arent going to wait around for that...
No thanks.
Sign Jones to a friendly 4 year deal and tag Barkley. Focus on improving the current roster and getting healthy in 2023.
Agree Elliott is likely gone but Pollard is a FA as well. Very interesting with him. He has only carried the ball more than 15 times twice in his career but is clearly an excellent player. What do you pay a guy like that
It's an absurd thought.
For every Allen that makes it, there are 10 similar QB prospects that dont.
And that's assuming we can even pick in the top 10-15, where most of these prospects end up (Newsflash: we wont be next year).
Maybe we win the lottery and strike gold on a prospect and can develop him over a few years, but it's far more likely we dont.
It's an absurd thought.
For every Allen that makes it, there are 10 similar QB prospects that dont.
And that's assuming we can even pick in the top 10-15, where most of these prospects end up (Newsflash: we wont be next year).
Maybe we win the lottery and strike gold on a prospect and can develop him over a few years, but it's far more likely we dont.
Nobody's pretending that. For some of us we're treading water with Jones. Almost any forst or 2nd round QB will have a higher ceiling than Jones.
Also, I'd like to know how raw they are and how long it will take for them to reach their ceiling. That's relevant because...
if we want to win with this current coaching staff, time isnt on our side.
And we can replace what Jones gives us very easily. Draft a guy for upside. Get a mediocre placeholder QB as contingency- could be Jones or any of the other cheap QBs in his class.
If the FO / coaches really don't like any of the QBs available in the draft, maybe we stay in a holding pattern with Jones or one of his peers for another year, but we are going to have to address QB at some point soon.
And what young talent is Daboll going to mold? We arent finding anything better than Jones in the draft after the 15th pick unless it's a project that will take years to develop.
As mentioned before, Kafka and Wink arent going to wait around for that...
No thanks.
Sign Jones to a friendly 4 year deal and tag Barkley. Focus on improving the current roster and getting healthy in 2023.
Lol Barkley and the defense are why they're at 7-4. You think it's coincidence Jones has looked worse when the run game is completely taken away?
It was pretty funny during the Thanksgiving game when the broadcast was talking about the NFCE having the best winning percentage in the NFL, you know what the accompanying graphic was? SB and the three other NFCE QBs.
Jones is completely a passenger
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Is that a joke? He is the only reason we are sitting at 7-4.
And what young talent is Daboll going to mold? We arent finding anything better than Jones in the draft after the 15th pick unless it's a project that will take years to develop.
As mentioned before, Kafka and Wink arent going to wait around for that...
No thanks.
Sign Jones to a friendly 4 year deal and tag Barkley. Focus on improving the current roster and getting healthy in 2023.
Lol Barkley and the defense are why they're at 7-4. You think it's coincidence Jones has looked worse when the run game is completely taken away?
It was pretty funny during the Thanksgiving game when the broadcast was talking about the NFCE having the best winning percentage in the NFL, you know what the accompanying graphic was? SB and the three other NFCE QBs.
Jones is completely a passenger
This is a clown response. Jones has led us to at least four come from behind victories this year.
Jones a passenger? Below average? Terrible?
Are the people saying this the same people that were lobbying to mortgage the future for Russell Wilson in the off-season?
Or were they the ones saying that when Jones went out last season that Fromm and Glennon would be just as good as Jones?
I get people being fired up in game threads saying some dumb shit, but get a hold of yourselves.
When you have a QB that nobody respects and puts 8-9 in the box...yeah, that effects Saquon in a big way.
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Barf 🤮
Sure. Barf. BUT we are only rolling with baker mayfield until we get the next Mahommes. How long could that possibly take?
True! Better to overpay an average QB and never have a shot a being a real SB contender. Always good to make decisions based on fear!
The thought of moving on from Jones and Barkley is tiresome and really shows a lack of pulse on what the overall situation with the Giants is right now.
The Giants probably won't do it but you're overrating what possibly Jones and Barkley are. As a result, it’s highly possible the other way around that you would have wasted Dabol for several years without nothing more than mediocrity. Then just like with Jones you'd hear "A coach is supposed to elevate his team and ff he can't win . . . "
It's highly possible Barkley gets hurt. It's highly possible Jones is bottom tier mediocre QB which means 3rd or 4th place in the Division. Because they didn’t make moves early - you don’t think in Year 3 three won’t be talk of having these guys fired if they aren’t projected to be a strong team in the Division?
Barkley is a big problem though due to injury and the position he plays. So if you want to talk 3-4 years down the road, where might the Giants offense be with a hurt Barkley? If you think we'd be okay but not a threat to be a title contender, then what's the big dela letting him go?
And as a result, sticking with Jones in mediocrity if he is that might be the worst possible thing for Dabol after 3-4 years.
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In comment 15923259 g56blue10 said:
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Barf 🤮
Sure. Barf. BUT we are only rolling with baker mayfield until we get the next Mahommes. How long could that possibly take?
True! Better to overpay an average QB and never have a shot a being a real SB contender. Always good to make decisions based on fear!
You just aren't bright enough to realize you are never getting Mahomes. You don't make decsions on stupidity. And your comments are nothing but stupidity.
Who is making that assertion?
The goal is to find a better QB than Jones. And that shouldn't be too hard with the right decision makers in place.
Are you really going to be upset if we move on from Jones? Really? Daniel Jones?
He's not Joe Montana. He's not John Elway. He's not Eli Manning. He's not even Joe Flacco.
Jones is one of the more dispensable QBs currently in the NFL.
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on from Jones, we will automatically be able to draft the next Josh Allen in this years draft.
Who is making that assertion?
The goal is to find a better QB than Jones. And that shouldn't be too hard with the right decision makers in place.
Are you really going to be upset if we move on from Jones? Really? Daniel Jones?
He's not Joe Montana. He's not John Elway. He's not Eli Manning. He's not even Joe Flacco.
Jones is one of the more dispensable QBs currently in the NFL.
Well bw, since the chances of the Giants getting a Hall of Fame QB anytime soon are rather low, there are 27 of them in the SB era, who do you want to get? If they move on from Jones the idea would be to improve the position, not just move on from a player you can't stand. Terps isn't around so lets not pontificate that Case Keenum or Mike Glennon would be an improvement.
You can't ask players to be fearless but build a team around settling for known average because searching for great is hard and scary.
I'll also add, draft a quarterback ONLY if you really like the upside, whatever round that is.
Year 2 with an influx of players and leftovers who understand what the staff wants will be critical to competing in 2023.
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In comment 15923047 5BowlsSoon said:
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You do realize Sy said Dak's second half was as good as any he's seen this year. So, I encourage you to direct similar comments to him as well...
You don't consider him part of the anti-Jones crowd...do you?
No, I don’t consider Sy part of the “we must move past Jones” crowd. I think it’s pretty obvious, he is using this whole year and will continue to do so (next 7 games) to evaluate Jones BEFORE rendering his opinion on what the Giants should do.
He is also pretty smart in realizing that if you move on from Jones, who takes his place? Will the next guy be an upgrade? We all know the draft is a gamble having seen time and time again top rated/drafted kids not living up to the hype.
That is also something very important to ponder…
Step one- should I move past Jones
Step two- how and who to replace him
I hope and trust Schoen and Daboll got this….I will accept their opinion over mine (in other words, if they move past Jones, so will I).
I think all rational posters do support letting the season play out. But it's also reasonable to judge each weekly performance by Jones (not suggesting you have an issue with that).
On a replacement idea for Jones, there are various ways to go on that. IMV, the best idea right now is to continue building a better all-around team and find a QB solution in the '23 draft. And I'm very content going through the inevitable growing pains in that process...
One guy I won’t be upset in seeing replace Jones is Herndon Hooker. I know he tore an ACL, and that concerns me, but this may allow for us to draft him late in round one (around 20) if not injured, he would probably be a top 10 pick.
We can draft him and let him slowly recover while playing Tyrod Taylor or Davis Webb (assuming we don’t sign Jones).
Isn’t Hooker as old as DJ?
It's an absurd thought.
For every Allen that makes it, there are 10 similar QB prospects that dont.
And that's assuming we can even pick in the top 10-15, where most of these prospects end up (Newsflash: we wont be next year).
Maybe we win the lottery and strike gold on a prospect and can develop him over a few years, but it's far more likely we dont.
What a backwards way of thinking. So, the Chiefs shoulda just settled for Alex Smith? Bills shoulda settled for Taylor.
Teams get rid of bad/average QBs all the time, and you're right, it doesn't always work out. However, what if it does? What if the Giants end up with a top 5 QB?
With this coaching staff, that already worked miracles with DJ to make him a top 20-25 QB, imagine what could happen if they groomed one from day one. Stop settling for OK...gotta but a ticket to win the lottery.
You can't ask players to be fearless but build a team around settling for known average because searching for great is hard and scary.
That's great Hammer, but assertations are not a plan. What is the plan? It's great to say we have to improve and it is very cool to say searching for great is hard and scary, but the goal would be to improve the position. I'm all for actually improving the position, if and when there is a reasonable alternative and just sating that search for greatness is hard and scary does nothing for me. The Giants have X amount of money and draft capital, it needs to be used wisely. If we had the 2nd pick in the draft and their is a guy that Schoen loves there than that's one thing, bringing in Andy Dalton because many blame Jones for every problem on the offense is another. BTW if they use all sorts of draft capital to move up for a QB, what is he going to have around him, because if it's this, he is going to have to be very, very special to overcome it.
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on from Jones, we will automatically be able to draft the next Josh Allen in this years draft.
It's an absurd thought.
For every Allen that makes it, there are 10 similar QB prospects that dont.
And that's assuming we can even pick in the top 10-15, where most of these prospects end up (Newsflash: we wont be next year).
Maybe we win the lottery and strike gold on a prospect and can develop him over a few years, but it's far more likely we dont.
What a backwards way of thinking. So, the Chiefs shoulda just settled for Alex Smith? Bills shoulda settled for Taylor.
Teams get rid of bad/average QBs all the time, and you're right, it doesn't always work out. However, what if it does? What if the Giants end up with a top 5 QB?
With this coaching staff, that already worked miracles with DJ to make him a top 20-25 QB, imagine what could happen if they groomed one from day one. Stop settling for OK...gotta but a ticket to win the lottery.
And you have to realize that winning the lottery is very very difficult to do. Sure buy a ticket, but that can't be the plan.
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I'm going to jump through hoops to justify sticking with jones" is no way to live.
You can't ask players to be fearless but build a team around settling for known average because searching for great is hard and scary.
That's great Hammer, but assertations are not a plan. What is the plan? It's great to say we have to improve and it is very cool to say searching for great is hard and scary, but the goal would be to improve the position. I'm all for actually improving the position, if and when there is a reasonable alternative and just sating that search for greatness is hard and scary does nothing for me. The Giants have X amount of money and draft capital, it needs to be used wisely. If we had the 2nd pick in the draft and their is a guy that Schoen loves there than that's one thing, bringing in Andy Dalton because many blame Jones for every problem on the offense is another. BTW if they use all sorts of draft capital to move up for a QB, what is he going to have around him, because if it's this, he is going to have to be very, very special to overcome it.
You've stated the goal pretty clearly. Improve the QB position, but also, improve the talent level of the roster. Both are needed.
What no one seems willing to accept is that the QB improvement may not happen immediately, and that is why they are clutching on to Jones even though he may very well not be good enough. He's good enough for people to receive happiness from regular season wins. He may not be good enough for this coaching staff and GM to fit their vision and plan.
Sticking with Jones at considerable cost because a better option isn't immediately clear is still not a plan. 30 million in franchise tag money for one year of Jones is 30 million in cap dollars not being spent on the 52 other roster spots or re-signing the players worth keeping.
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I'm going to jump through hoops to justify sticking with jones" is no way to live.
You can't ask players to be fearless but build a team around settling for known average because searching for great is hard and scary.
That's great Hammer, but assertations are not a plan. What is the plan? It's great to say we have to improve and it is very cool to say searching for great is hard and scary, but the goal would be to improve the position. I'm all for actually improving the position, if and when there is a reasonable alternative and just sating that search for greatness is hard and scary does nothing for me. The Giants have X amount of money and draft capital, it needs to be used wisely. If we had the 2nd pick in the draft and their is a guy that Schoen loves there than that's one thing, bringing in Andy Dalton because many blame Jones for every problem on the offense is another. BTW if they use all sorts of draft capital to move up for a QB, what is he going to have around him, because if it's this, he is going to have to be very, very special to overcome it.
That's why they call it a rebuild.
Enjoy the 7-4 record all you can but don't let it cloud your judgment. There are still some big pieces missing here and work to do to further develop the roster including at QB. All options to upgrade key positions for the future should be explored versus staying the course with a product that has had some short-term but flawed successes.
The goal is to create a team that can truly compete for a championships.