It does look like Barkely is a different runner these past two games. Is it possibly the physical toll is having on his mental approach to the game? He has not played this long and this physical since his rookie year, and it almost looks like he is hitting a rookie wall. Hopefully he can get past that with a 10-day rest because the team can’t afford to have him playing like this down the stretch.
One, as I had started a thread after the game, was the emergence of Thibs and Strahan-like qualities. If we can keep Dex, Williams and Thibs together and get strong rush from the other side with Ojulari or someone else, we will cause a lot of trouble for offenses. It will be the foundation of a great defense.
The other thing, which is echoed in the game review is Jones. I am actually a big Jones supporter and still think he can improve, but this game worried me. I think, despite the poor oline and rest of the offense we rolled out, he had a few opportunities to really lift up this team and carry them to an upset. I thought he missed out on a few runs as Sy pointed out. I didn’t see the confidence there.
I think Jones can be a winner with a strong oline and some actuall weapons at WR. One major reason that I want the playoffs is to see how Jones does in that setting.
One of the questions people will ask about Daniel Jones and his future with NYG will revolve around upside. Just how good can he actually be? Best case scenario, what is he? We just watched Dak Prescott throw two interceptions in the first half. He was hit just as much if not more than Jones was throughout the game. Nothing mattered. He comes out in the second half and played some of the best QB I have seen all year from around the league. The numbers did not pop off the page, but it was the complexity of his throws and how precise they were. I do not see that in Jones. Both right now and in the future.
And I too did see that hesitancy from Jones in not running more. I was shocked to see only 3 runs for 14 yards. The first game he killed them with his legs. I agree, Jones had a chance to make big plays ON HIS OWN and he didn’t do it. That was troubling even to me, a guy who wants him to succeed more than not. Having said allthis, I still put most of the blame on Saquon for the incomplete pass on 4th down, even though I agree, the pass could have been better. I’m surprised Sy put it all on DJ and none on SB.
As for Saquon….I love Saquon but he looked so slow and hesitant. I don’t believe his shoulder caused that either. But I have a feeling if Daboll spells Saquon for Brightwell, this might not go well…how would that look? Especially if Brightwell is getting just as many carries.
Lastly, Sy alluded to this but didn’t make a big point- the play calling in the 2nd half was also concerning….no sense of urgency down two TDs….no hurry up two minute offense and a lot of runs still. I was hoping Sy would have given us a bit more of his thoughts on this. That was also concerning.
Bottom line: Jones, Saquon, and Kafka all have to rise up especially next Sunday.
At 30, 40, 50 million....neither Dek nor Jones are worth it.
One of the questions people will ask about Daniel Jones and his future with NYG will revolve around upside. Just how good can he actually be? Best case scenario, what is he? We just watched Dak Prescott throw two interceptions in the first half. He was hit just as much if not more than Jones was throughout the game. Nothing mattered. He comes out in the second half and played some of the best QB I have seen all year from around the league. The numbers did not pop off the page, but it was the complexity of his throws and how precise they were. I do not see that in Jones. Both right now and in the future.
Although I would like to see each QB playing with the other team's receivers. Dallas had guys getting separation all day long. Not so with the Giant receivers.
The past two games. 35 carries against the Texans, a college seasons worth of games carrying the load, shoulder.. whatever it is the coaching staff needs to spell him earlier and often with the fresher guys who are hitting holes faster and harder.
Is this a downside of having a 1A alpha back? You feel the need to feed him even when he’s not at peak performance? Whereas in a more meritocratic RBBC you may be quicker with a hook? It doesn’t have to be - but usually plays out this way.
Quick question: I may have missed this, but I didn't see what happened to the Giants defense that allowed the Dallas run game to smash through it with ease for over 160 yards?
It looked like they had tremendous success running between their left guard (Connor McGovern?) and left tackle but not sure?
One of the questions people will ask about Daniel Jones and his future with NYG will revolve around upside. Just how good can he actually be? Best case scenario, what is he? We just watched Dak Prescott throw two interceptions in the first half. He was hit just as much if not more than Jones was throughout the game. Nothing mattered. He comes out in the second half and played some of the best QB I have seen all year from around the league. The numbers did not pop off the page, but it was the complexity of his throws and how precise they were. I do not see that in Jones. Both right now and in the future.
Although I would like to see each QB playing with the other team's receivers. Dallas had guys getting separation all day long. Not so with the Giant receivers.
Good point….I was going to mention something like this, but glad someone else did.
Sy does realize Dak has so many more toys to play with and he also had a great ground game to make the passing game work even better. Not to mention the Giants were playing with 4/5 backups in the secondary. I’m not surprised Dak looked good…..for one half at least.
come on Sy... Dak has way more weapons and an offensive line that if I remember the stat they showed, played 95% of the snaps this season. They have a better 1-2 punch at running back.
There were defensive alignments on the Giants that they showed on replay that the Center and LG were uncovered and the Cowboys ran it right there.
Also Dallas's Defense is #1 over all and #1 in sacks...
by the way, who is getting open on the Giants?
It's easy for all of us to say DJ is not good enough after that game, but come on.
Dallas's wide receivers and tight ends were catching everything... I mean everything. How many drops did they have?
Dak is putrid and benefits from superior talent around him.
Barkley is either dinged or making business decisions.
That 4th and 1 was catchable and it hit his hands. This is not the first time Barkley dropped a pass. He is not a very good receiver.
Look at the catch a couple of weeks ago that Christian McCarthy made for Garoppolo.. he almost took flight to catch that ball..
you want to be the highest paid RB in football... you make that catch. No excuses.
What hasn’t been discussed much is that intentional grounding play
I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone get an intentional grounding on a play that wouldn’t have counted. Did he think it was a free play? Regardless, a moment of poor football IQ
RE: What hasn’t been discussed much is that intentional grounding play
I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone get an intentional grounding on a play that wouldn’t have counted. Did he think it was a free play? Regardless, a moment of poor football IQ
Maybe thought it was a false start and play was dead, but ended up illegal formation?
Didn’t do my own review this week because I didn’t get to watch the game as well as I normally do (I hosted the family for Thanksgiving) but a couple of things stuck out to me and you hit on both:
1) Was Jones play. A lot has been made about the miss to Barkley on the 4th and 1 flat route. Its worth noting that prior to this year, both Shurmur and Garrett used variations of flat routes in the red zone and Jones was almost always late on the timing. This time we see an errand throw, but that can also be due to him being slow getting his feet in position. This is an old problem popping up again.
2) Was Barkley’s play. Since the Texans game when he got 35 carries, he just has seemed off. I’d question whether he can really handle that type of load. We have 2 other backs that are capable, clearly they need to take some stress off of Saquon.
on the wait and see wagon with Jones. This last game when he could have put this team on his back he didn't. The Giants might not have a choice but to keep him on a reasonable contract but No way should they give him a franchise guy one. They may take one in the draft they feel they can build off of. Not a high first round guy but one they can develop. Time will tell. But I think he's peaked .
I think it's important to note that it is feasible to evaluate a QBs traits in isolation from his surroundings, as you have done.
An evaluator can see a player's footwork and performance on a variety of throws. Jones has certainly improved in many facets of his game. Maybe most notable is his ability to nail crossers in the middle of the field. But these are among the easiest throws on the field, and we do not see him attempt many high difficulty throws that require great touch, timing, outside the hashes.
I agree Jones doesn't rate with Dak as a passer. It seems if he's not thrashing teams with the run, he's generally not productive enough.
but he's got CeeDee Lamb to just wing the ball to in single coverage. That's what having a #1 WR will do for you. It's a cozy place to go with the ball if you're in trouble.
Jones has had Golden Tate, Darius Slayton, Kenny Golladay as his #1 WRs here. And the #2's and 3's are even worse. And this has been his entire career here.
I'm not sure how you can state definitively that he can't do it. Unfortunately for him, he hasn't demonstrated that he definitely can, either. And he's not going to get a chance to before his contract is up. It remains a fascinating situation without any parallels I can think of.
Don't see any valid comparison right now - DP vs DJ
in the big moments. He doesn’t have special passing skills and that’s a killer in a passing league. We can all see it hopefully Schoen and Daboll do as well. He’s a legit bottom 3rd starter in the league. I do t want to pay a marginal starter 30+ million.
I wonder if I am the only one who just skips your "quick" game recap and goes straight to the player evaluations.
Most of us watched the game. And for those who missed it Eric does a very nice recap.
So what I am suggesting - go straight to the player evaluations. What point does the game recap serve?
In fact you could just start right out with the Studs and Duds section with the rest of the evaluations to follow.
I am not looking to criticize here but only trying to be constructive when I say - You are burying the lead.
I've definitely had the same thought over the years. If Eric would sign off on that, I would alter the approach.
I always go straight to the player evaluations as well. But I wouldn't move the "Studs and Duds" section. I would keep it where is is. I like to guess the Studs and Duds AFTER reading the player evaluations.
Over the last two years all I wanted was to see how he does if he had average pass blocking, a consistent running game, chemistry with roughly the same group of at least average NFL calibre WRs for 5-6 games in a row.
For God’s sake, that is all I wanted to see so we can finally understand what his true upside could be. Unbelievable! We almost got to see that scenario at the end of last year, and then he gets hurt. Eleven games each in both 2021 and 2022 with scrubs at WR and the greatest QB pressure in the NFL.
Dak looking good in the second half? Wow, imagine that!
Not understand that it is absolutely possible to evaluate a QB in isolation from the players around him? Those players certainly alter stats, but you can watch a QB on a bad team and see he is good, bad or indifferent. This idea that as long as he has crappy players around him he is nothing but a question mark is silly.
If you are evaluating Slayton, Hodgins, etc, is it also fair to say “well they don’t have much at QB so who knows how good they can be?” Of course not. No problem evaluating every other position in isolation.
Jones has good games and bad games. Thursday was another bad one. Do not understand why folks are so personally invested in defending every throw the guy makes. The 4th and 1 throw was poor. You don’t have to hate the Giants and despise Jones to acknowledge that.
“ But there isn’t a quick mind here, he doesn’t see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based. After a long time scouting him, he is a pass for me.”
I haven’t really seen this change over the years. He has tools, but he never has seemed to be able to shake this criticism. On the 4th and 1 play he seemed to hesitate and it led to a bad pass. It reminded me of the 2 point conversions against Tampa in 2020 that could have sent the game to overtime. He hesitated on the throw into the flat. Defender had time to close. (Not sure who remembers this play)…He seems to excel at the down the sideline single read long pass where this is one on one coverage. However passes over th middle where multiple defenders and receivers are crossing he is hesitant to pull the trigger. I think this goes beyond the talent at WR as it apparently plagued him in College too.
One of the questions people will ask about Daniel Jones and his future with NYG will revolve around upside. Just how good can he actually be? Best case scenario, what is he? We just watched Dak Prescott throw two interceptions in the first half. He was hit just as much if not more than Jones was throughout the game. Nothing mattered. He comes out in the second half and played some of the best QB I have seen all year from around the league. The numbers did not pop off the page, but it was the complexity of his throws and how precise they were. I do not see that in Jones. Both right now and in the future.
This such an important point (bold).
I don't care how much talent a QB has around him, he still has to deliver the ball and make quality decisions. Too many on this board incorrectly assume that if Jones is surrounded by more talent, he will automatically be better. That's faulty logic and lazy.
Nothing is easy in the NFL despite what the many members of the DJFC will have you believe.
RE: Do the folks making excuse after excuse for Jones
Not understand that it is absolutely possible to evaluate a QB in isolation from the players around him? Those players certainly alter stats, but you can watch a QB on a bad team and see he is good, bad or indifferent. This idea that as long as he has crappy players around him he is nothing but a question mark is silly.
If you are evaluating Slayton, Hodgins, etc, is it also fair to say “well they don’t have much at QB so who knows how good they can be?” Of course not. No problem evaluating every other position in isolation.
Jones has good games and bad games. Thursday was another bad one. Do not understand why folks are so personally invested in defending every throw the guy makes. The 4th and 1 throw was poor. You don’t have to hate the Giants and despise Jones to acknowledge that.
They aren't. It's you that made a decision on Jones form the get-go and blasted/talked down anyone that didn't agree with you.
but he's got CeeDee Lamb to just wing the ball to in single coverage. That's what having a #1 WR will do for you. It's a cozy place to go with the ball if you're in trouble.
Jones has had Golden Tate, Darius Slayton, Kenny Golladay as his #1 WRs here. And the #2's and 3's are even worse. And this has been his entire career here.
I'm not sure how you can state definitively that he can't do it. Unfortunately for him, he hasn't demonstrated that he definitely can, either. And he's not going to get a chance to before his contract is up. It remains a fascinating situation without any parallels I can think of.
Nobody is denying that Dak has better receivers. It is still feasible to account for a QBs traits in isolation. How does he set, what is the delivery like, what kinds of throws does he attempt, how quick is the release, how does he place the ball, what kind of touch does he have on deliveries, etc... All these and more have little to do with who he is throwing to. It is not true that you can't tell anything from a QB if he doesn't have great receivers.
And while Dak can and does just toss it up at times to his receivers, it is not all he does. He often exhibits touch and superior ball placement on tricky throws, that Jones rarely flashes.
I do the same
Appreciate the flexibility Sy and Eric
I expect you will be able to expand on your thoughts on position/individual play. Your player evaluations are what I (we) really admire and want to know.
RE: Don't see any valid comparison right now - DP vs DJ
Of course you can't see the same level of performance. It may not be there because it cannot possibly be there.
I did not like the Barkley throw, but I have seen RBs make that catch hundreds of times, this was not OBJ 1 hander.
+1 in regard to the 4th and 1. Posters are having willful amnesia when in fact the replays from behind that the game showed were that the ball went through his hands. Yes it was a tough catch.
Anyhow, SY had mentioned below on one of his old reports speaking of the fact "imagine if Jones had . . . "
But I have been on board with SY right form the beginning. SY appeared very hopeful during his wining in streak but lately - I had said similar yesterday. Though I've come out and said I lean toward not signing him which he hasn't. Btu certainly he is no longer positive. Just read SY's past comments when things were going well. It had us wondering "what if has better . . ." It just doesn't look like it matters that much.
"Having the rookie Wan’Dale Robinson back on the field did not look like a lot on paper, but when considering the lack of talent he has been working with at the receiver position, it brought Jones to a higher level. The quick maturation of the rookie tight end is bringing Jones to a higher level. Saquon Barkley staying on the field and playing the best we have seen him is bringing Jones to a higher level. All of that added up and his skill position talent is still bottom third in the league. What kind of level does Jones get to with another high-end receiver or two? It is all projection at this point, but we now have some more information on what happens here when this situation around him trends north."
I wonder if I am the only one who just skips your "quick" game recap and goes straight to the player evaluations.
Most of us watched the game. And for those who missed it Eric does a very nice recap.
So what I am suggesting - go straight to the player evaluations. What point does the game recap serve?
In fact you could just start right out with the Studs and Duds section with the rest of the evaluations to follow.
I am not looking to criticize here but only trying to be constructive when I say - You are burying the lead.
I've definitely had the same thought over the years. If Eric would sign off on that, I would alter the approach.
No! Don't you dare!
I value reading your account of the game, because you are seeing it from a professional evaluator's perspective, and even if that were not the case, I still value getting a different perspective.
Please do not axe your recap of the game.
But i like your take on the game recaps. There are often insights i read into the recaps that support the evaluations.
In this particular case, the 4th and 1 play. “Kafka calls a great play, SB is alone in the flat. Jones misfires and ball falls to the ground”. Had you written “Jones threw a perfect pass, SB just couldn’t handle the throw” … different meaning.
When read in comparison to the note around DJ’s passing in the game, against Dax’s passing in the 2nd half, the recap often helps contextualize your thinking.
I do take away a lot from your recaps. That said, whatever is decided really do appreciate what you bring to the site. Your contributions are invaluable to BBI. I look forward to all your posts.
Put a spotlight on the issues with both DJ & Saquon and giving them big contracts. Each of these plays provided both of them the opportunity to step up and make something happen in a crucial moment. I believe it was the play before the ill fated 4th and 1, Saquon was in space and had a chance to put his shoulder down and get the first, he did not. Later in the game, DJ rolled to his left on 3rd and long and had a chance to do the same. Instead he tried to hit Saquon with a low percentage pass that was incomplete. If Saquon had awareness, he would have broke long creating space for DJ to run and DJ would have at a minimum made it 4th and short. Instead the Giants punted. These are the little plays that go unnoticed but yet have a big impact on the game. Big time players make these plays. Schoen and Dabol have their work cut out for them making this decision regardless of how the remainder of the season goes.
And FWIW, I agree with ChicagoMarty. Sy, your player evaluations are so good, I skip straight to those and skip the game recap. Perhaps save yourself some work and forgo the recap.
RE: RE: Don't see any valid comparison right now - DP vs DJ
Of course you can't see the same level of performance. It may not be there because it cannot possibly be there.
I did not like the Barkley throw, but I have seen RBs make that catch hundreds of times, this was not OBJ 1 hander.
+1 in regard to the 4th and 1. Posters are having willful amnesia when in fact the replays from behind that the game showed were that the ball went through his hands. Yes it was a tough catch.
Jones just doesn't make enough plays. I'm not saying without a doubt dump him - but he doesn't make "enough."
RE: Do the folks making excuse after excuse for Jones
In comment 15922845 Mike from Ohio said:
[quote] Not understand that it is absolutely possible to evaluate a QB in isolation from the players around him?
No, they cannot and they will not. This insanity will continue on this site for months until Schoen makes a decision. DJ's limitations have been self-evident since he was at Duke, as prophesized by Sy himself in the pre-draft ratings. Nothing has changed. And nothing will change. What a colossal waste of time and energy.
First, I’ll admit I’m pro-DJ.
That said, not seeing a part of his game ‘now or in the future’.
A Y/N decision on his Giants future is due soon. At 7Ws the Giants are out of the top 10, and if they get to 9-10Ws and a playoffs, they are 18-20 +in the draft, with not many top QBs to draft but a lot of other holes, including possibly replacing injured recent drafted players.
My question, what does SY do about DJ, knowing a QB rebuild put the team another 2 years away from competing.
First, I’ll admit I’m pro-DJ.
That said, not seeing a part of his game ‘now or in the future’.
A Y/N decision on his Giants future is due soon. At 7Ws the Giants are out of the top 10, and if they get to 9-10Ws and a playoffs, they are 18-20 +in the draft, with not many top QBs to draft but a lot of other holes, including possibly replacing injured recent drafted players.
My question, what does SY do about DJ, knowing a QB rebuild put the team another 2 years away from competing.
If NYG moves on from DJ, I think Tyrod is next years QB until the replacement for DJ is ready to go.
over a number of seasons, whereas Schoen/Daboll have just had one single draft here, plus severe restrictions with the cap.
My take on the two quarterbacks:
Prescott: throws 60/40 good/bad balls.
Jones: throws 40/60 good/bad balls.
Prescott is good, but to my mind not elite. Jones is JAG and that is not enough at QB. We need to find a way to move on from him.
Dallas got Micah Parsons. We traded down to get Kadarius Toney and Evan Neal.
I don't know if we should have stayed pat and taken Parsons. Maybe the problem is that you want as near as a sure thing with a first round pick and Toney just wasn't that.
Always look forward to the recap. Would be interesting to see your thoughts IF and When the Giants are in the position to find a replacement for DJ based the available options at that time.
Dallas has a bunch of receivers constantly hauling in contested catches and the Giant receivers have problems holding onto their few open passes and whatever Golladay is.
for Sy, but my impression is he is saying while Jones does NOT stink, there is nothing “special” about his passing ability and that limits his ceiling.
When I watch Jones, I think of guys like Dilfer, Dalton,Flacco. Not upper tier guys, but if everything broke right, you could have A season and win with them. Schoen and Daboll have said they want to “build something sustainable and consistent here”. That’s not Jones.
I’m betting they put a value on Jones (years and $) and if someone offers him a lot more (very possible), they let him walk draft “their guy” and start Taylor next year. It would likely be a step back in record, but Schoen went through that in Buffalo.
Jones had 6 games left to show he can get it done WITH HIS ARM in the big moments.
First, I’ll admit I’m pro-DJ.
That said, not seeing a part of his game ‘now or in the future’.
A Y/N decision on his Giants future is due soon. At 7Ws the Giants are out of the top 10, and if they get to 9-10Ws and a playoffs, they are 18-20 +in the draft, with not many top QBs to draft but a lot of other holes, including possibly replacing injured recent drafted players.
My question, what does SY do about DJ, knowing a QB rebuild put the team another 2 years away from competing.
If NYG moves on from DJ, I think Tyrod is next years QB until the replacement for DJ is ready to go.
You’re likely correct.
I’m just concerned about resetting the rebuild back further with a new rookie QB, few available this year, the price/ picks to move up to get one, and the other needs, as I had mentioned.
RE: Do the folks making excuse after excuse for Jones
Not understand that it is absolutely possible to evaluate a QB in isolation from the players around him? Those players certainly alter stats, but you can watch a QB on a bad team and see he is good, bad or indifferent. This idea that as long as he has crappy players around him he is nothing but a question mark is silly.
If you are evaluating Slayton, Hodgins, etc, is it also fair to say “well they don’t have much at QB so who knows how good they can be?” Of course not. No problem evaluating every other position in isolation.
Jones has good games and bad games. Thursday was another bad one. Do not understand why folks are so personally invested in defending every throw the guy makes. The 4th and 1 throw was poor. You don’t have to hate the Giants and despise Jones to acknowledge that.
Mike, you never cease to amaze me. You called Thursday’s game a bad one.
The guy scored two TDs- one passing, one running- had an 88.8 QBRating on the AP I use, had no turnovers and led his team to 20 points. Should have been 4 more had the refs not gotten ticky tacky.
Last week Cousins HAD A BAD GAME and only scored 3 points.
I think i read Dallas is the #2 defensive team in the NFL of some sort- in other words, they can bring it. He had practically no run support at all as Saquon went MIA so basically he had to do it all himself. Like i previously said, i wish he had taken off more, but for some reason he didn’t. I think that hurt us. He also was playing with a very depleted OL which I’m sure had an effect in the game plan.
I wouldn’t classify that as a bad game…just a so so game….nothing to write home about but also nothing to throw rocks at him over.
I thought Daboll and the coaching staff deserve tremendous credit for getting this team fired up to start the game. The first half was one of the finest starts I have ever seen from this team in my time as a Giants fan, particularly given the overwhelming odds against them. With the injuries and the Cowboys talent, they could have easily folded before the kickoff. Not only did they not, but they forced the Cowboys to play their game. What a treat! We have found our coach, which is a major accomplishment at this point in the rebuild.
The second half was another story as you pointed out. I thought the decision to go for it on that fourth down was the turning point of the game. In some sense, it was a capitulation to abandon our game, and play their game. Naturally, the debate on this site is who's fault was it - DJ or SB? But the truth is, it was Daboll's fault. Given the close score, he should have punted and continued the sensible approach of the first half. Instead, DJ threw a terrible pass and SB failed to catch a catchable ball. The entire game turned from that point forward and ended with the Cowboys in full control.
Great to see Thibs as a stud. He is definitely making good progress after his slow start, arguably due to his MCL which is a much more severe injury than most understand. Yes, you can play on it after six weeks, but it took me six months before I was running at full speed after I suffered this injury. Excited to see him pair up with Ojulari.
As to Barkley, I do believe he is not playing with the same level of intensity since the contract discussions broke down. Yes, it may be due to injury, but I would say this is more psychological. He literally carried this team on his back for the first nine games and yet he looks around and sees a do nothing guy like Kenny Golladay making a fortune. And all he must be hearing is how DJ deserves big money. I can't imagine his reaction to the realization that the Giants won't pay him. I am not advocating that they should, but simply recognizing how disgusted he must feel. The guy who is most responsible for the seven wins this year will not be getting a Zeke Elliott contract, but will instead likely get franchised and traded. And all this good stuff while KG and DJ will be getting paid handsomely next year. The word disgust probably doesn't do justice for how SB must feel.
So I will not be surprised if it is DJ and KG who are forced to do the heavy lifting over the next six games... and I will therefore not be surprised if the Giants don't make the playoffs.
As to Barkley, I do believe he is not playing with the same level of intensity since the contract discussions broke down. Yes, it may be due to injury, but I would say this is more psychological. He literally carried this team on his back for the first nine games and yet he looks around and sees a do nothing guy like Kenny Golladay making a fortune. And all he must be hearing is how DJ deserves big money. I can't imagine his reaction to the realization that the Giants won't pay him. I am not advocating that they should, but simply recognizing how disgusted he must feel. The guy who is most responsible for the seven wins this year will not be getting a Zeke Elliott contract, but will instead likely get franchised and traded. And all this good stuff while KG and DJ will be getting paid handsomely next year. The word disgust probably doesn't do justice for how SB must feel.
One of the questions people will ask about Daniel Jones and his future with NYG will revolve around upside. Just how good can he actually be? Best case scenario, what is he? We just watched Dak Prescott throw two interceptions in the first half. He was hit just as much if not more than Jones was throughout the game. Nothing mattered. He comes out in the second half and played some of the best QB I have seen all year from around the league. The numbers did not pop off the page, but it was the complexity of his throws and how precise they were. I do not see that in Jones. Both right now and in the future.
This such an important point (bold).
I don't care how much talent a QB has around him, he still has to deliver the ball and make quality decisions. Too many on this board incorrectly assume that if Jones is surrounded by more talent, he will automatically be better. That's faulty logic and lazy.
Nothing is easy in the NFL despite what the many members of the DJFC will have you believe.
Too funny….let’s forget the first half, let’s forget the two interceptions, and let’s just look at the passes he made that were good…like the one to that TE who was so wide open there wasn’t anyone near him for 20 yards (the play he leaped over Pinnock).
Bw, I wonder if you would be as gracious to Dimes as you are to Dak if Danny had a first half like Dak did…2 interceptions and no TDs passing or running. I’m glad you are so impressed with Dak for his second half throwing against our backups. Was there anyone within 20 yards of that TE who jumped over a Giant player? Tough throw by Dak indeed…in fact, it was almost over his head.
Earnest Gray, Johnny Perkins, Byron Williams, Stacy Robinson, Lionel Manuel, Bobby Johnson, Odessa Turner, Mark Ingram, and Stephen Baker. Not exactly a fountain of receiving talent there.
RE: Phil Simms had a damned fine career throwing to guys like...
Earnest Gray, Johnny Perkins, Byron Williams, Stacy Robinson, Lionel Manuel, Bobby Johnson, Odessa Turner, Mark Ingram, and Stephen Baker. Not exactly a fountain of receiving talent there.
You left off Mark Bávaro and I’m sure Tiki Barber caught a lot of passes too.
One of the questions people will ask about Daniel Jones and his future with NYG will revolve around upside. Just how good can he actually be? Best case scenario, what is he? We just watched Dak Prescott throw two interceptions in the first half. He was hit just as much if not more than Jones was throughout the game. Nothing mattered. He comes out in the second half and played some of the best QB I have seen all year from around the league. The numbers did not pop off the page, but it was the complexity of his throws and how precise they were. I do not see that in Jones. Both right now and in the future.
This such an important point (bold).
I don't care how much talent a QB has around him, he still has to deliver the ball and make quality decisions. Too many on this board incorrectly assume that if Jones is surrounded by more talent, he will automatically be better. That's faulty logic and lazy.
Nothing is easy in the NFL despite what the many members of the DJFC will have you believe.
Too funny….let’s forget the first half, let’s forget the two interceptions, and let’s just look at the passes he made that were good…like the one to that TE who was so wide open there wasn’t anyone near him for 20 yards (the play he leaped over Pinnock).
Bw, I wonder if you would be as gracious to Dimes as you are to Dak if Danny had a first half like Dak did…2 interceptions and no TDs passing or running. I’m glad you are so impressed with Dak for his second half throwing against our backups. Was there anyone within 20 yards of that TE who jumped over a Giant player? Tough throw by Dak indeed…in fact, it was almost over his head.
Clearly bbi believes the evil noodle armed bad progression read spirit of Jones took over ESPN annointed god Dax Prescott for those couple of interceptions.
But he doesn’t take over the game consistently
And seems to be not running possessed anymore
Would be careful to give him a lot of money. This team may need a hard running move the chains type of RB for lower cost ( and miss out on a few big plays) and invest in another IOL and multiple WRs ( plus develop another TE)
We still have a lot of holes. Can’t out scheme everyone Literally we will see the bottom 1/4 or 1/3 of roster turnover again in 2023
DJ is qb hell. Competitive enough to root for him. And leader. But not a guy who will put us over the top consistently without close to top tier talent on offense
And yes, with what he has to work makes evaluating harder. But I only see glimpses. Too much left on the table ( even with less ingredients)
RE: Phil Simms had a damned fine career throwing to guys like...
Earnest Gray, Johnny Perkins, Byron Williams, Stacy Robinson, Lionel Manuel, Bobby Johnson, Odessa Turner, Mark Ingram, and Stephen Baker. Not exactly a fountain of receiving talent there.
Baker and Ingram were waaaay better than our #1 WR, whoever the hell that is. Manuel and Bavaro were on a different planet.
I did not notice AT limping but that is a good catch. Let's hope it is not that ankle/foot.
Lots of games wind up going to the 4th QTR. The other big thing is there are usually a few plays made or not that change the outcome. Agree that 4th and 1 was huge.
I am good with moving on from Jones if they find someone in the draft. Moving forward, cost and availability in the draft are two big issues. This style of O play opens of the draft pool imv.
For Dallas to win a SB I think they will need two games where Dak wins the game for them. I like him but I have my doubts. I think McCarthy recognizes they will have to be a great running team as part of the equation.
He'll be cut, and lucky to ever see the field again.
Barkley should not be butt hurt after how much he's made for being injured. He should be pressing harder to prove he can do it for an entire season. anything less should see him out the door.
whether a QB switch will set us back. It's when should that switch be made.
It's becoming obvious that DJ is probably not the long term solution, so the sooner the switch is made, the better, if an alternative is available for drafting.
The two reasons to chill with DJ for another year or two is if you think he's the man for the job (looking more and more doubtful with every game), or if it doesn't look likely a replacement is available in the draft and DJ is willing to take a low cost contract.
review. Agree that the game summary is appreciated but unnecessary.
I still think Barkley is either hurt, extremely worn down, or both. He's been the main focus of the offense. Others teams obviously know this, and so he's facing a lot of eight man boxes. That increases the amount of hits he takes. The OL is still below average IMO, especially with all the backups playing. I would like to see more of Brightwell and Breida. They are fresher than Barkley, and are less likely to draw the same amount of attention.
Jones looks like he's leaving plays on the field, but he was relentlessly pressured almost immediately on nearly every drop back that I saw. I was surprised that there weren't more designed runs for him.
I'm waiting until the end of the year for a final verdict on what we should do with Barkley and Jones.
rather than fully scrap the recap, I'd suggest covering the highlights (good and bad) so us dunces can hear the professional has to say about players/coaching.
Plus, I'd love to hear what Sy has to say about the 'holding' on Thibs that us dunces think is holding but doesn't get called. But, I've noticed Sy is quite careful about bashing the refs, likely to keep himself in good standing around the league.
I don't care how much talent a QB has around him, he still has to deliver the ball and make quality decisions. Too many on this board incorrectly assume that if Jones is surrounded by more talent, he will automatically be better. That's faulty logic and lazy.
Nothing is easy in the NFL despite what the many members of the DJFC will have you believe.
Too funny….let’s forget the first half, let’s forget the two interceptions, and let’s just look at the passes he made that were good…like the one to that TE who was so wide open there wasn’t anyone near him for 20 yards (the play he leaped over Pinnock).
Bw, I wonder if you would be as gracious to Dimes as you are to Dak if Danny had a first half like Dak did…2 interceptions and no TDs passing or running. I’m glad you are so impressed with Dak for his second half throwing against our backups. Was there anyone within 20 yards of that TE who jumped over a Giant player? Tough throw by Dak indeed…in fact, it was almost over his head.
You do realize Sy said Dak's second half was as good as any he's seen this year. So, I encourage you to direct similar comments to him as well...
You don't consider him part of the anti-Jones crowd...do you?
of Schoen speaking publicly about extensions was about. I was surprised how candid he was. He's under no obligation to discuss, and it may've caused a problem.
He has all the offensive talent surrounding him and in big games has come up small . Ask die hard Dallas fans what they think about Dak. Overpaid!!
As far as DJ goes I will wait until the end of the season for my evaluation
Having said it is very hard to compare him to Dak snd his supporting cast in a game review.
He has come up small in the past on big plays. Frustrating!!!
I have complete trust in Schoen and Daboll to make accurate assessments on DJ and SB.
I don't care how much talent a QB has around him, he still has to deliver the ball and make quality decisions. Too many on this board incorrectly assume that if Jones is surrounded by more talent, he will automatically be better. That's faulty logic and lazy.
Nothing is easy in the NFL despite what the many members of the DJFC will have you believe.
Too funny….let’s forget the first half, let’s forget the two interceptions, and let’s just look at the passes he made that were good…like the one to that TE who was so wide open there wasn’t anyone near him for 20 yards (the play he leaped over Pinnock).
Bw, I wonder if you would be as gracious to Dimes as you are to Dak if Danny had a first half like Dak did…2 interceptions and no TDs passing or running. I’m glad you are so impressed with Dak for his second half throwing against our backups. Was there anyone within 20 yards of that TE who jumped over a Giant player? Tough throw by Dak indeed…in fact, it was almost over his head.
You do realize Sy said Dak's second half was as good as any he's seen this year. So, I encourage you to direct similar comments to him as well...
You don't consider him part of the anti-Jones crowd...do you?
I can throw dump off passes for easy TDs exploiting our depleted secondary and non-existent coverage LBs. Zach Wilson can't.
First, I’ll admit I’m pro-DJ.
That said, not seeing a part of his game ‘now or in the future’.
A Y/N decision on his Giants future is due soon. At 7Ws the Giants are out of the top 10, and if they get to 9-10Ws and a playoffs, they are 18-20 +in the draft, with not many top QBs to draft but a lot of other holes, including possibly replacing injured recent drafted players.
My question, what does SY do about DJ, knowing a QB rebuild put the team another 2 years away from competing.
I will make a long DJ post at the end of the season with what I would do here
What many need to account for...is if you let DJ walk - where do you go next? An ascending team is going to sign....Baker Mayfield? Jared Goff? Carson Wentz? Geno Smith? Roll with Tyrod?
I have no issue with someone that is Anti-Jones. But you better have an idea on what to do and it better not be "wait for the 2024 Draft"
I have supported Jones but after seeing him throw three piss poor passes to the right flat all I can think of is after almost 4 years of development we have a mediocre QB. Also his run/pass decision making still is not good. There were times when he should have run and did not. If you aren't a great passer you need to be a good runner. wouldn't pay him more than 15 million.
Barkley. He wants be be paid like a superstar. I haven't seen anything super the last two games which just coincides with contract stuff..coincidence??? Running backs don't get better with age, especially those that are injury prone. I would not be resigning Barkley. Actually it may turn out that not extending his contract was a blessing in disguise, given his play of late.
I would not spend big dollars on Jones and Barkley. We have too many needs and neither player is coming up big as we head down the stretch.
I don't care how much talent a QB has around him, he still has to deliver the ball and make quality decisions. Too many on this board incorrectly assume that if Jones is surrounded by more talent, he will automatically be better. That's faulty logic and lazy.
Nothing is easy in the NFL despite what the many members of the DJFC will have you believe.
Too funny….let’s forget the first half, let’s forget the two interceptions, and let’s just look at the passes he made that were good…like the one to that TE who was so wide open there wasn’t anyone near him for 20 yards (the play he leaped over Pinnock).
Bw, I wonder if you would be as gracious to Dimes as you are to Dak if Danny had a first half like Dak did…2 interceptions and no TDs passing or running. I’m glad you are so impressed with Dak for his second half throwing against our backups. Was there anyone within 20 yards of that TE who jumped over a Giant player? Tough throw by Dak indeed…in fact, it was almost over his head.
You do realize Sy said Dak's second half was as good as any he's seen this year. So, I encourage you to direct similar comments to him as well...
You don't consider him part of the anti-Jones crowd...do you?
No, I don’t consider Sy part of the “we must move past Jones” crowd. I think it’s pretty obvious, he is using this whole year and will continue to do so (next 7 games) to evaluate Jones BEFORE rendering his opinion on what the Giants should do.
He is also pretty smart in realizing that if you move on from Jones, who takes his place? Will the next guy be an upgrade? We all know the draft is a gamble having seen time and time again top rated/drafted kids not living up to the hype.
That is also something very important to ponder…
Step one- should I move past Jones
Step two- how and who to replace him
I hope and trust Schoen and Daboll got this….I will accept their opinion over mine (in other words, if they move past Jones, so will I).
Dallas has a bunch of receivers constantly hauling in contested catches and the Giant receivers have problems holding onto their few open passes and whatever Golladay is.
Agreed. Dak threw several 3rd down passes high and with confidence that Gallup and Shult and even Frederick would go up and get it.
Don’t see a better option than Jones in 23. I lean towards liking Jones and I certainly understand those that lean the opposite direction. There is a faction of people here though that completely are in denial of the lack of talent Jones has had around him his whole career and this year might be the worst.
I would love to see Jones step on to the field just once with the amount of talent Dak had out there with him. Dak made several throws in that second half that were less than perfect and his guys made plays for him. If we swapped QB’s that game the results would be the same
You do realize Sy said Dak's second half was as good as any he's seen this year. So, I encourage you to direct similar comments to him as well...
You don't consider him part of the anti-Jones crowd...do you?
No, I don’t consider Sy part of the “we must move past Jones” crowd. I think it’s pretty obvious, he is using this whole year and will continue to do so (next 7 games) to evaluate Jones BEFORE rendering his opinion on what the Giants should do.
He is also pretty smart in realizing that if you move on from Jones, who takes his place? Will the next guy be an upgrade? We all know the draft is a gamble having seen time and time again top rated/drafted kids not living up to the hype.
That is also something very important to ponder…
Step one- should I move past Jones
Step two- how and who to replace him
I hope and trust Schoen and Daboll got this….I will accept their opinion over mine (in other words, if they move past Jones, so will I).
I think all rational posters do support letting the season play out. But it's also reasonable to judge each weekly performance by Jones (not suggesting you have an issue with that).
On a replacement idea for Jones, there are various ways to go on that. IMV, the best idea right now is to continue building a better all-around team and find a QB solution in the '23 draft. And I'm very content going through the inevitable growing pains in that process...
I do the same
Appreciate the flexibility Sy and Eric
I expect you will be able to expand on your thoughts on position/individual play. Your player evaluations are what I (we) really admire and want to know.
some interesting takes.
I have never thought dak was or did anything “special”. Solid starter, good leader but nothing elite in his game. He does a decent job with a stacked deck of talent.
The pronounced difference I saw between the 2 teams passing games was lamb abusing Holmes and gallop ripping down balls in spite of good coverage.
The first half …when under pressure and before we lost flott and went to cb 6/7/8? He was the reason they were losing.
I agree he was better in the 2nd half but I don’t think they threw it 10 times and the only wow throw was the TD to the tight end which was against an inexplicable defense. Dallas ran the ball down our throats. Passed when and how they wanted with 1 legit starter in the back 7.
I do agree that the lack of running the qb has been detrimental not just this week but the last few. I have seen teams do a better job and place a priority on taking that away but it seems the scramble runs are missing as well as some called runs. It seems more important now that the line isn’t run blocking ver well lately on top of the usual pass pro struggles. Giants offense has to steal some 3rd down conversions
It’s hard to dissect some of the short comings with so many injuries but I feel like the coaching staff has not adjusted well to the “blueprint” Seattle put on film. I just don’t feel like offensively our coaches have given the team an advantage the last cpl weeks. McCarthy is not good but I have a ton of respect for the coordinators.
I would not call the 4th and 1 “the play of the game” but I do find it interesting that the blame is placed on 1 person. That was not the general take of the national media or those without any investment in the giants.
There were several pivotal plays and I would put that in the 5-10 range. Besides the 2 calls that swung 8 points there were 2 punts that should have been downed inside the 5, KT missed sack, 2-3 3&longs Giants margin against a good team is so small they need to make 8 of the 10 pivotal plays in a game like that and turn this picks into more then 3 points.
Hoping the mini bye is a good rest and mental reset. Really want to see this team make the playoffs and finish strong
I do the same
Appreciate the flexibility Sy and Eric
I expect you will be able to expand on your thoughts on position/individual play. Your player evaluations are what I (we) really admire and want to know.
Hahaha - yep -- me too
Yeah I don’t read any of the recap. I go straight to the positions reviews and read from there
review. Agree that the game summary is appreciated but unnecessary.
I still think Barkley is either hurt, extremely worn down, or both. He's been the main focus of the offense. Others teams obviously know this, and so he's facing a lot of eight man boxes. That increases the amount of hits he takes. The OL is still below average IMO, especially with all the backups playing. I would like to see more of Brightwell and Breida. They are fresher than Barkley, and are less likely to draw the same amount of attention.
Jones looks like he's leaving plays on the field, but he was relentlessly pressured almost immediately on nearly every drop back that I saw. I was surprised that there weren't more designed runs for him.
I'm waiting until the end of the year for a final verdict on what we should do with Barkley and Jones.
this “relentlessly pressure“ is a BBI meme. The ball wasn’t coming out on time. He’s in the shotgun in order to survey the defense pre-snap, and yet, he gets the snap and hangs onto the ball for three seconds. Of course he is going to get pressure under those circumstances. he doesn’t see the field, he can’t find his hot read, and he misses ducky throws it’s over
Who takes his place? Whatever. There are always options. You can get this level of quarterback play from a lot of players. Spend the money to build the rest of the team, pick a couple of QBs in the draft, it doesn’t even need to be a number one pick, and give yourself some options. Or identify a couple of college quarterbacks coming out on the next year that you want and spend what is necessary to get one. You are going to spend resources trying to rescue Jones iffy career otherwise.
I wonder if I am the only one who just skips your "quick" game recap and goes straight to the player evaluations.
Most of us watched the game. And for those who missed it Eric does a very nice recap.
So what I am suggesting - go straight to the player evaluations. What point does the game recap serve?
In fact you could just start right out with the Studs and Duds section with the rest of the evaluations to follow.
I am not looking to criticize here but only trying to be constructive when I say - You are burying the lead.
CM, you’re not the only one. LOVE the player evaluations and also find myself skipping right to them. Great read and asset for the site and its readers. Thanks Sy!
There is more then 1 reason a qb holds the ball
1 of them is that nobody is open. All due respect that is not something that can be determined from the broadcast copy
I watch the all 22 most weeks (not this week yet) There are times he can’t find the open guy. But more often there is no open guy.
The time from snap to throw CAN be a function of good pass protection but watching the games it seems obvious that the extra time for jones snap to throw is designed movement and scrambles. When they do use straight drop back it is very rare the qb is not moved off his spot. I get that is not “ relentless pressure” in your view but if you think of relentless as extremely often but not necessarily dire it is more true then not
I’m not saying that Jones doesn’t miss guys or should or should not be on the team next year. Only that our receivers need to be sceemed open because they aren’t beating corners on raw talent.
some interesting takes.
I have never thought dak was or did anything “special”. Solid starter, good leader but nothing elite in his game. He does a decent job with a stacked deck of talent.
The pronounced difference I saw between the 2 teams passing games was lamb abusing Holmes and gallop ripping down balls in spite of good coverage.
The first half …when under pressure and before we lost flott and went to cb 6/7/8? He was the reason they were losing.
I agree he was better in the 2nd half but I don’t think they threw it 10 times and the only wow throw was the TD to the tight end which was against an inexplicable defense. Dallas ran the ball down our throats. Passed when and how they wanted with 1 legit starter in the back 7.
I do agree that the lack of running the qb has been detrimental not just this week but the last few. I have seen teams do a better job and place a priority on taking that away but it seems the scramble runs are missing as well as some called runs. It seems more important now that the line isn’t run blocking ver well lately on top of the usual pass pro struggles. Giants offense has to steal some 3rd down conversions
It’s hard to dissect some of the short comings with so many injuries but I feel like the coaching staff has not adjusted well to the “blueprint” Seattle put on film. I just don’t feel like offensively our coaches have given the team an advantage the last cpl weeks. McCarthy is not good but I have a ton of respect for the coordinators.
I would not call the 4th and 1 “the play of the game” but I do find it interesting that the blame is placed on 1 person. That was not the general take of the national media or those without any investment in the giants.
There were several pivotal plays and I would put that in the 5-10 range. Besides the 2 calls that swung 8 points there were 2 punts that should have been downed inside the 5, KT missed sack, 2-3 3&longs Giants margin against a good team is so small they need to make 8 of the 10 pivotal plays in a game like that and turn this picks into more then 3 points.
Hoping the mini bye is a good rest and mental reset. Really want to see this team make the playoffs and finish strong
Did you see the All-22 from the botched 4th and 1? There is a more than 50% chance Barkley scores on the play if the throw was there.
I don't think Dak is special. I think he has and will continue to rank as one of the best 10-12 QBs in football. Prescott made at least 5 throws with a pass rusher inches away or already on him and rarely made the receiver adjust. Good receivers or not, they were impressive throws. One after the other. Let's not act like he s throwing to Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce here.
some interesting takes.
I have never thought dak was or did anything “special”. Solid starter, good leader but nothing elite in his game. He does a decent job with a stacked deck of talent.
The pronounced difference I saw between the 2 teams passing games was lamb abusing Holmes and gallop ripping down balls in spite of good coverage.
The first half …when under pressure and before we lost flott and went to cb 6/7/8? He was the reason they were losing.
I agree he was better in the 2nd half but I don’t think they threw it 10 times and the only wow throw was the TD to the tight end which was against an inexplicable defense. Dallas ran the ball down our throats. Passed when and how they wanted with 1 legit starter in the back 7.
I do agree that the lack of running the qb has been detrimental not just this week but the last few. I have seen teams do a better job and place a priority on taking that away but it seems the scramble runs are missing as well as some called runs. It seems more important now that the line isn’t run blocking ver well lately on top of the usual pass pro struggles. Giants offense has to steal some 3rd down conversions
It’s hard to dissect some of the short comings with so many injuries but I feel like the coaching staff has not adjusted well to the “blueprint” Seattle put on film. I just don’t feel like offensively our coaches have given the team an advantage the last cpl weeks. McCarthy is not good but I have a ton of respect for the coordinators.
I would not call the 4th and 1 “the play of the game” but I do find it interesting that the blame is placed on 1 person. That was not the general take of the national media or those without any investment in the giants.
There were several pivotal plays and I would put that in the 5-10 range. Besides the 2 calls that swung 8 points there were 2 punts that should have been downed inside the 5, KT missed sack, 2-3 3&longs Giants margin against a good team is so small they need to make 8 of the 10 pivotal plays in a game like that and turn this picks into more then 3 points.
Hoping the mini bye is a good rest and mental reset. Really want to see this team make the playoffs and finish strong
you don’t know what you were looking at and think a professional offense is like your local flag tag league where you throw it to the biggest kid on the field. Prescott was correctly reading the defense and that ball was coming out accurately and on time. Prescott was 10-10 and 2 td’s to receivers other than Gallup and Lamb. You think that was an accident?
It's not whether Barkley should have caught the ball or not
But Jones oftem botches critical throws, throwing to the wrong side etc. In this case a properly placed ball is a big play. That's the problem. It was a big play left on the field.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I completely agree with this:
You do realize Sy said Dak's second half was as good as any he's seen this year. So, I encourage you to direct similar comments to him as well...
You don't consider him part of the anti-Jones crowd...do you?
No, I don’t consider Sy part of the “we must move past Jones” crowd. I think it’s pretty obvious, he is using this whole year and will continue to do so (next 7 games) to evaluate Jones BEFORE rendering his opinion on what the Giants should do.
He is also pretty smart in realizing that if you move on from Jones, who takes his place? Will the next guy be an upgrade? We all know the draft is a gamble having seen time and time again top rated/drafted kids not living up to the hype.
That is also something very important to ponder…
Step one- should I move past Jones
Step two- how and who to replace him
I hope and trust Schoen and Daboll got this….I will accept their opinion over mine (in other words, if they move past Jones, so will I).
I think all rational posters do support letting the season play out. But it's also reasonable to judge each weekly performance by Jones (not suggesting you have an issue with that).
On a replacement idea for Jones, there are various ways to go on that. IMV, the best idea right now is to continue building a better all-around team and find a QB solution in the '23 draft. And I'm very content going through the inevitable growing pains in that process...
One guy I won’t be upset in seeing replace Jones is Herndon Hooker. I know he tore an ACL, and that concerns me, but this may allow for us to draft him late in round one (around 20) if not injured, he would probably be a top 10 pick.
We can draft him and let him slowly recover while playing Tyrod Taylor or Davis Webb (assuming we don’t sign Jones).
you don’t know what you were looking at and think a professional offense is like your local flag tag league where you throw it to the biggest kid on the field. Prescott was correctly reading the defense and that ball was coming out accurately and on time. Prescott was 10-10 and 2 td’s to receivers other than Gallup and Lamb. You think that was an accident? [/quote]
I don’t think it was an accident. I also don’t think it was overly impressive. Dallas dominated the LOS and ran the ball down our throats. Dak completed 6 or 8 passes against a practice squad defensive backfield. There was one throw I was really impressed with. I think dak is a good qb. Not a great qb. If you think he’s great that ok with me. You can DR dak if you like.
If you couldn’t see how overmatched the dbs were then I think it’s you that don’t know what your watching
I think SB should have caught that pass. Sometimes passes aren’t perfect. Make a play!!
Agree with that. I thought Jones had an awful game and missed a lot of throws. But I am so tired of other teams players making plays where it seems like we rarely do. Saquon has been average at best these last 2 weeks.
that Barkley has been averaging 30 yards the last couple of games? Just strange to think Barkley would have otherwise scored an easy TD from a player who seems to have quit this season.
that Barkley has been averaging 30 yards the last couple of games? Just strange to think Barkley would have otherwise scored an easy TD from a player who seems to have quit this season.
Well they have no threat of a passing game and Jones is part of the passing game.
We’re accusing Barkley of quitting on the season? That’s a hell of an accusation. And probably worse than any bad thing that’s been said about Daniel Jones. It’s insane the excuse you’re willing to make for Jones, while accusing Barkley of quitting.
some interesting takes.
I have never thought dak was or did anything “special”. Solid starter, good leader but nothing elite in his game. He does a decent job with a stacked deck of talent.
The pronounced difference I saw between the 2 teams passing games was lamb abusing Holmes and gallop ripping down balls in spite of good coverage.
The first half …when under pressure and before we lost flott and went to cb 6/7/8? He was the reason they were losing.
I agree he was better in the 2nd half but I don’t think they threw it 10 times and the only wow throw was the TD to the tight end which was against an inexplicable defense. Dallas ran the ball down our throats. Passed when and how they wanted with 1 legit starter in the back 7.
I do agree that the lack of running the qb has been detrimental not just this week but the last few. I have seen teams do a better job and place a priority on taking that away but it seems the scramble runs are missing as well as some called runs. It seems more important now that the line isn’t run blocking ver well lately on top of the usual pass pro struggles. Giants offense has to steal some 3rd down conversions
It’s hard to dissect some of the short comings with so many injuries but I feel like the coaching staff has not adjusted well to the “blueprint” Seattle put on film. I just don’t feel like offensively our coaches have given the team an advantage the last cpl weeks. McCarthy is not good but I have a ton of respect for the coordinators.
I would not call the 4th and 1 “the play of the game” but I do find it interesting that the blame is placed on 1 person. That was not the general take of the national media or those without any investment in the giants.
There were several pivotal plays and I would put that in the 5-10 range. Besides the 2 calls that swung 8 points there were 2 punts that should have been downed inside the 5, KT missed sack, 2-3 3&longs Giants margin against a good team is so small they need to make 8 of the 10 pivotal plays in a game like that and turn this picks into more then 3 points.
Hoping the mini bye is a good rest and mental reset. Really want to see this team make the playoffs and finish strong
Did you see the All-22 from the botched 4th and 1? There is a more than 50% chance Barkley scores on the play if the throw was there.
I don't think Dak is special. I think he has and will continue to rank as one of the best 10-12 QBs in football. Prescott made at least 5 throws with a pass rusher inches away or already on him and rarely made the receiver adjust. Good receivers or not, they were impressive throws. One after the other. Let's not act like he s throwing to Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce here.
I agree with all of it but I am not 100% sold on Barkley catching it. Barkley just isn't playing well and honestly he is just not a guy I spend our cap space on for 2023 and beyond..
Has a chance to score. But even a bad throw should have been a 1st down
And while the play design was excellent it is also Kafka who is reposonsible to have the substitution done correctly and the 10 men falls on him
And I didn’t love the call in the first place. I thought daboll jumped the gun with aggressiveness.
But the call was made. The play was well designed. We fucked up the substitution. The throw was poor and the ball was dropped
I see it as a team failure. And not the reason we lost. It was a failed conversion in a 1 point game in the 3rd quarter.
It hurt. It was part of the reason we lost. Just not THE reason
Baker Mayfield. Mayfield is clearly more talented than Jones. He’s in the midst of a career destroying situation in Carolina and should jump at the chance of working with Daboll to resuscitate it.
Schoen will continue scouting college QBs hard to find the next Mahomes, in the meantime. While he does that, the Giants QB situation will be improved and stabilized.
Did you see the All-22 from the botched 4th and 1? There is a more than 50% chance Barkley scores on the play if the throw was there.
I don't think Dak is special. I think he has and will continue to rank as one of the best 10-12 QBs in football. Prescott made at least 5 throws with a pass rusher inches away or already on him and rarely made the receiver adjust. Good receivers or not, they were impressive throws. One after the other. Let's not act like he s throwing to Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce here.
Sy - there has been a lot of debate on the board whether Barkley should have caught that pass from Jones. I don't mean to lead the witness here, but I think that would have been a very difficult ask for SB to pull that in. What's your view?
Did you see the All-22 from the botched 4th and 1? There is a more than 50% chance Barkley scores on the play if the throw was there.
I don't think Dak is special. I think he has and will continue to rank as one of the best 10-12 QBs in football. Prescott made at least 5 throws with a pass rusher inches away or already on him and rarely made the receiver adjust. Good receivers or not, they were impressive throws. One after the other. Let's not act like he s throwing to Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce here.
Sy - there has been a lot of debate on the board whether Barkley should have caught that pass from Jones. I don't mean to lead the witness here, but I think that would have been a very difficult ask for SB to pull that in. What's your view?
He needs to catch the goddam ball. He should not get a criticism pass... Barkley plays small in big moments.
But Jones oftem botches critical throws, throwing to the wrong side etc. In this case a properly placed ball is a big play. That's the problem. It was a big play left on the field.
Yes it was a big play left on the field by BOTH players
I think SB should have caught that pass. Sometimes passes aren’t perfect. Make a play!!
I saw a video replay of that pass, looked to me like it was tipped at LOS and trajectory was changed. Anyone else see it?
I watched the replay numerous times. It definitely appeared that the trajectory of the pass changed slightly but the ball retained the exact spiral so there's that.
Earnest Gray, Johnny Perkins, Byron Williams, Stacy Robinson, Lionel Manuel, Bobby Johnson, Odessa Turner, Mark Ingram, and Stephen Baker. Not exactly a fountain of receiving talent there.
You left off Mark Bávaro and I’m sure Tiki Barber caught a lot of passes too.
Yeah, it's close.
Gray, Perkins, Robinson were all second rounders. Ingram was a 1, Baker a three and Turner and Bavaro were 4s. Manuel was a 7th.
Slayton was a fifth, Hodgins was a sixth, Cager, Hudson, Myrick and Johnson were not drafted.
Yep, very comparable.
There’s obviously not a great answer to the QB question
Baker is my answer. No one’s going to give him a big contract at this stage and he’s an upgrade in my opinion.
You think DJ has been put in a bad environment? Take a look at what Baker’s been through. A perfect “buy low” situation.
JimG might be interesting, too. He's playing pretty well. But he might continue to be on a year-to-year deals based on this stigma he is success is more the system than him.
I'd give him a long, long look for a one-year deal...
RE: The DJFC asks how we could possibly improve on DJ.
Baker is my answer. No one’s going to give him a big contract at this stage and he’s an upgrade in my opinion.
You think DJ has been put in a bad environment? Take a look at what Baker’s been through. A perfect “buy low” situation.
The knock on Baker is that you surround him with tons of SB caliber talent in Cleveland and he pretty much sucked.
2020, when they had their best roster he was good in the regular season and the post season. They were a fumble through the end zone from going to the AFC title game.
RE: RE: RE: Phil Simms had a damned fine career throwing to guys like...
Earnest Gray, Johnny Perkins, Byron Williams, Stacy Robinson, Lionel Manuel, Bobby Johnson, Odessa Turner, Mark Ingram, and Stephen Baker. Not exactly a fountain of receiving talent there.
You left off Mark Bávaro and I’m sure Tiki Barber caught a lot of passes too.
Yeah, it's close.
Gray, Perkins, Robinson were all second rounders. Ingram was a 1, Baker a three and Turner and Bavaro were 4s. Manuel was a 7th.
Slayton was a fifth, Hodgins was a sixth, Cager, Hudson, Myrick and Johnson were not drafted.
Yep, very comparable.
Nice catch k2….I didn’t have any recollection when those guys were drafted. Barely remember some of them.
once again thank you so much for these reviews. I think you can scale back on the recap to only the highlights/lowlights.
I think this game put the nail in Jones' coffin for a long contract. He was pretty bad on a few short throws to open guys. I was hoping that Daboll had sorted him out as he improved each week. After that game, I think Schoen and Daboll saw all they needed to see.
Now, I will disagree with you on Dak in this game. I would rate him as you do vs the other QBs in the league and think he is a lot better than BBI gives him credit for. However, he was just throwing balls in Lamb's direction and the guy was making one hand grabs and abusing the DBs. Jones does not have anyone, anywhere near that level of competence at WR. Throw in Gallup who was dragging Flott down the field like toilet paper stuck to his shoe. Those guys just outmuscled the Giants DBs. Yes Dak got the balls out and near his WRs, but you need to be fair about it. It wasn't that Dak did anything special IMV, he just got it out near his WRs and when you are throwing against the 4th and 5th string CBs you have a VG chance of a completion. Yes, Dak was stout in the pocket and I am not diminishing that. He stood in there and got smacked. I know I was feeling pretty frustrated that he kept getting completions in spite of decent pressure.
Anyway, just my POV.
I think this game really exposed the short comings of both Jones and
I don't think Barkley gets resigned unless Mara gets involved.
Jones is a low end starting QB and should only get paid as such.
If I were Dabol I would tell Jones and Barkley if you want the big money now is the time to earn it. No more excuses. You two are supposed to be our best players, well than, elevate the play of those around you.
once again thank you so much for these reviews. I think you can scale back on the recap to only the highlights/lowlights.
I think this game put the nail in Jones' coffin for a long contract. He was pretty bad on a few short throws to open guys. I was hoping that Daboll had sorted him out as he improved each week. After that game, I think Schoen and Daboll saw all they needed to see.
Now, I will disagree with you on Dak in this game. I would rate him as you do vs the other QBs in the league and think he is a lot better than BBI gives him credit for. However, he was just throwing balls in Lamb's direction and the guy was making one hand grabs and abusing the DBs. Jones does not have anyone, anywhere near that level of competence at WR. Throw in Gallup who was dragging Flott down the field like toilet paper stuck to his shoe. Those guys just outmuscled the Giants DBs. Yes Dak got the balls out and near his WRs, but you need to be fair about it. It wasn't that Dak did anything special IMV, he just got it out near his WRs and when you are throwing against the 4th and 5th string CBs you have a VG chance of a completion. Yes, Dak was stout in the pocket and I am not diminishing that. He stood in there and got smacked. I know I was feeling pretty frustrated that he kept getting completions in spite of decent pressure.
Anyway, just my POV.
Dak is a top 10-12 guy...very overrated mainly because he is the Cowboys QB.
He needs to win a playoff game to elevate above this current level.
DJ was playing to a top 15-17 level...until these last 2 games...where he has reverted back to 20-23 type level.
Both he and Saquon are driving all of us nuts because we all know what happens when the season ends and we have to make some of the biggest decisions in a long time with these 2..
The decision on Jones is going to be based, in part, on what is asking price is. If he’s asking for a long term contract at big dollars, it’ll be an easy decision. If he’s asking for a short term contract at a reasonable amount, it might also be easy. The in between is the problem.
With Barkley, it might also be easy. If he wants to be paid as one of the highest paid RBs, if not the highest, that’s one thing. On the other hand, if he is playing hurt, considering the amount of time he’s missed over the past few years, or played hurt over the past few year, I don’t think Schoen will want to deal with that.
Dak is putrid and benefits from superior talent around him.
Barkley is either dinged or making
Hes not putrid in any way. This is the Giants fan in you talking. You want to argue that he's not top 10, go for it, but 'putrid' is not Prescott, it's flatly inaccurate.
RE: The DJFC asks how we could possibly improve on DJ.
with Jones as a short term, low cost, solution. The alternatives aren't that attractive.
The vibe coming from the DJFC side of the fence seems to be, sign him up long term. That isn't all that attractive to me, especially if the cost is higher than 20s/yr with enough guarantees to make it painful to dump him.
Obviously, the full evaluation/decision comes at the end of the year, but we're quite a ways into the season and the waters are just as muddy as when it began. That isn't cause for optimism.
Might have gotten hit just as much but there is no comparison between quality of receivers. And, Prescott has had way more experience and on much better teams
Giants played them fairly closely both games. Giants are clearly in a rebuild and don't have the horses. Think people are overrating win against Vikes.
Cowboys have a knack for underperforming in the playoffs. Don't see them having guaranteed against any of the following teams - Bucs, Eagles, or 49ers.
One note re: Pollard - probably better at this point in Zeke;s career, but he's not Zeke. Zeke did not get enough credit for his toughness, breaking tackles.
with Jones as a short term, low cost, solution. The alternatives aren't that attractive.
The vibe coming from the DJFC side of the fence seems to be, sign him up long term. That isn't all that attractive to me, especially if the cost is higher than 20s/yr with enough guarantees to make it painful to dump him.
Obviously, the full evaluation/decision comes at the end of the year, but we're quite a ways into the season and the waters are just as muddy as when it began. That isn't cause for optimism.
if BM was mentioned as a long term solution, or merely as a stopgap.
Personally, I think it is rare to find a long term solution thru FA. It can happen. Wayyy more often, the FA QBs are either stopgap, or a discovery of why the original team let the QB go.
But, I think a point to be made is that stopgap alternatives to DJ should be available if DJ gets a better offer, or if one, or both, parties decide to move on. In that light, BM might be a consideration.
Should the unspeakable happen, and Giants fall out of the wild card race, I wouldn't mind seeing what TT can do, to see if he should be the stop gap. Of course, that would put the nail in the coffin on any chance of re-signing DJ.
RE: It's not whether Barkley should have caught the ball or not
But Jones oftem botches critical throws, throwing to the wrong side etc. In this case a properly placed ball is a big play. That's the problem. It was a big play left on the field.
Exactly. The idea that a QB shouldn’t be blamed for a very bad throw is just absurd. He missed on 2 other throws in the flat to James, one of which James made a fantastic catch on. An NFL QB has to make those throws. Hell, a HS QB does too.
Giants played them fairly closely both games. Giants are clearly in a rebuild and don't have the horses. Think people are overrating win against Vikes.
Cowboys have a knack for underperforming in the playoffs. Don't see them having guaranteed against any of the following teams - Bucs, Eagles, or 49ers.
One note re: Pollard - probably better at this point in Zeke;s career, but he's not Zeke. Zeke did not get enough credit for his toughness, breaking tackles.
Agreed, they also have the uninspiring Mike McCarthay as HC. Let’s see how it plays out before crowning their asses.
If you are going to move on from Jones and Barkley
You might as well just tear it down and hope for a new coaching staff to come in and in 4-5 years from now, if by some miracle we have a better QB that we drafted along the way and he's also somehow better than Jones is now, maybe that will be a solution. Daboll, Kafka, and Wink arent going to stick around for years to see that happen.
And a play for Rodgers or something along those lines isnt a solution either.
Jones has turned himself into a solid, if not spectacular, QB. Will he ever be a tier 1 guy? Maybe not. But he still has the arrow pointing up if we can finally get him a few weapons. He's made strides this year with literally nothing and he can continue to make strides as he's only just now reaching his prime.
Will Barkley ever be Jim Brown? Probably not. But again, he's a real solid RB. Probably a top 5 RB in the league.
These arent players you move on from...
Not when you also have your franchise LT, top notch Edge rusher, elite young safety tandem, and quality pieces along the d line already in tow.
If the Giants want to see how far Daboll can take them, they need to keep the nucleus intact and ADD to what we already have. Another draft and some much needed free agency cash next year could do wonders for this team.
The thought of moving on from Jones and Barkley is tiresome and really shows a lack of pulse on what the overall situation with the Giants is right now.
RE: If you are going to move on from Jones and Barkley
You might as well just tear it down and hope for a new coaching staff to come in and in 4-5 years from now, if by some miracle we have a better QB that we drafted along the way and he's also somehow better than Jones is now, maybe that will be a solution. Daboll, Kafka, and Wink arent going to stick around for years to see that happen.
And a play for Rodgers or something along those lines isnt a solution either.
Jones has turned himself into a solid, if not spectacular, QB. Will he ever be a tier 1 guy? Maybe not. But he still has the arrow pointing up if we can finally get him a few weapons. He's made strides this year with literally nothing and he can continue to make strides as he's only just now reaching his prime.
Will Barkley ever be Jim Brown? Probably not. But again, he's a real solid RB. Probably a top 5 RB in the league.
These arent players you move on from...
Not when you also have your franchise LT, top notch Edge rusher, elite young safety tandem, and quality pieces along the d line already in tow.
If the Giants want to see how far Daboll can take them, they need to keep the nucleus intact and ADD to what we already have. Another draft and some much needed free agency cash next year could do wonders for this team.
The thought of moving on from Jones and Barkley is tiresome and really shows a lack of pulse on what the overall situation with the Giants is right now.
You have a point if Jones and Barkley are affordable. If they want break the bank deals, that's where you ask if they're worth it.
RE: If you are going to move on from Jones and Barkley
You might as well just tear it down and hope for a new coaching staff to come in and in 4-5 years from now, if by some miracle we have a better QB that we drafted along the way and he's also somehow better than Jones is now, maybe that will be a solution. Daboll, Kafka, and Wink arent going to stick around for years to see that happen.
And a play for Rodgers or something along those lines isnt a solution either.
Jones has turned himself into a solid, if not spectacular, QB. Will he ever be a tier 1 guy? Maybe not. But he still has the arrow pointing up if we can finally get him a few weapons. He's made strides this year with literally nothing and he can continue to make strides as he's only just now reaching his prime.
Will Barkley ever be Jim Brown? Probably not. But again, he's a real solid RB. Probably a top 5 RB in the league.
These arent players you move on from...
Not when you also have your franchise LT, top notch Edge rusher, elite young safety tandem, and quality pieces along the d line already in tow.
If the Giants want to see how far Daboll can take them, they need to keep the nucleus intact and ADD to what we already have. Another draft and some much needed free agency cash next year could do wonders for this team.
The thought of moving on from Jones and Barkley is tiresome and really shows a lack of pulse on what the overall situation with the Giants is right now.
These are exactly the players you move on from. Barkley, because he's a RB and Jones because if everything is perfect he might win a couple playoff games, but overall he's a passenger and not the driver of the offense.
Why not see what BD et al can do developing raw talent like he did with JA in Buffalo? We gave him a vase and told him to make it a bowl. Let's give him the wet clay and see what he molds
Is that a joke? He is the only reason we are sitting at 7-4.
And what young talent is Daboll going to mold? We arent finding anything better than Jones in the draft after the 15th pick unless it's a project that will take years to develop.
As mentioned before, Kafka and Wink arent going to wait around for that...
No thanks.
Sign Jones to a friendly 4 year deal and tag Barkley. Focus on improving the current roster and getting healthy in 2023.
When they play a team with competent CB they will struggle. Minn has bad CB and the Giants with injuries are worse. Lamb is a good WR, but he is not the stud 1 that Cooper was
Agree Elliott is likely gone but Pollard is a FA as well. Very interesting with him. He has only carried the ball more than 15 times twice in his career but is clearly an excellent player. What do you pay a guy like that
People really need to stop pretending that if we move
Im tired of playing in fairy tale land. Who exactly are the Giants drafting (assume in the 18-32 range) or in the second round that will have a higher ceiling than Jones? We know which QBs are coming out at this point.
Also, I'd like to know how raw they are and how long it will take for them to reach their ceiling. That's relevant because...
if we want to win with this current coaching staff, time isnt on our side.
The next QB could be as bad as Jones. Could even be worse than Jones. But you need a high end QB - not Allen necessarily - but a top 10 guy.
And we can replace what Jones gives us very easily. Draft a guy for upside. Get a mediocre placeholder QB as contingency- could be Jones or any of the other cheap QBs in his class.
If the FO / coaches really don't like any of the QBs available in the draft, maybe we stay in a holding pattern with Jones or one of his peers for another year, but we are going to have to address QB at some point soon.
RE: You think Jones is a passenger on this 7-4 team?
Is that a joke? He is the only reason we are sitting at 7-4.
And what young talent is Daboll going to mold? We arent finding anything better than Jones in the draft after the 15th pick unless it's a project that will take years to develop.
As mentioned before, Kafka and Wink arent going to wait around for that...
No thanks.
Sign Jones to a friendly 4 year deal and tag Barkley. Focus on improving the current roster and getting healthy in 2023.
Lol Barkley and the defense are why they're at 7-4. You think it's coincidence Jones has looked worse when the run game is completely taken away?
It was pretty funny during the Thanksgiving game when the broadcast was talking about the NFCE having the best winning percentage in the NFL, you know what the accompanying graphic was? SB and the three other NFCE QBs.
Jones is completely a passenger
RE: RE: You think Jones is a passenger on this 7-4 team?
Is that a joke? He is the only reason we are sitting at 7-4.
And what young talent is Daboll going to mold? We arent finding anything better than Jones in the draft after the 15th pick unless it's a project that will take years to develop.
As mentioned before, Kafka and Wink arent going to wait around for that...
No thanks.
Sign Jones to a friendly 4 year deal and tag Barkley. Focus on improving the current roster and getting healthy in 2023.
Lol Barkley and the defense are why they're at 7-4. You think it's coincidence Jones has looked worse when the run game is completely taken away?
It was pretty funny during the Thanksgiving game when the broadcast was talking about the NFCE having the best winning percentage in the NFL, you know what the accompanying graphic was? SB and the three other NFCE QBs.
Jones is completely a passenger
This is a clown response. Jones has led us to at least four come from behind victories this year.
Hard to take this site seriously anymore when fans can't wait to
turn on the players.
Jones a passenger? Below average? Terrible?
Are the people saying this the same people that were lobbying to mortgage the future for Russell Wilson in the off-season?
Or were they the ones saying that when Jones went out last season that Fromm and Glennon would be just as good as Jones?
I get people being fired up in game threads saying some dumb shit, but get a hold of yourselves.
that Barkley has been averaging 30 yards the last couple of games? Just strange to think Barkley would have otherwise scored an easy TD from a player who seems to have quit this season.
When you have a QB that nobody respects and puts 8-9 in the box...yeah, that effects Saquon in a big way.
You might as well just tear it down and hope for a new coaching staff to come in and in 4-5 years from now, if by some miracle we have a better QB that we drafted along the way and he's also somehow better than Jones is now, maybe that will be a solution. Daboll, Kafka, and Wink arent going to stick around for years to see that happen.
The thought of moving on from Jones and Barkley is tiresome and really shows a lack of pulse on what the overall situation with the Giants is right now.
The Giants probably won't do it but you're overrating what possibly Jones and Barkley are. As a result, it’s highly possible the other way around that you would have wasted Dabol for several years without nothing more than mediocrity. Then just like with Jones you'd hear "A coach is supposed to elevate his team and ff he can't win . . . "
It's highly possible Barkley gets hurt. It's highly possible Jones is bottom tier mediocre QB which means 3rd or 4th place in the Division. Because they didn’t make moves early - you don’t think in Year 3 three won’t be talk of having these guys fired if they aren’t projected to be a strong team in the Division?
Barkley is a big problem though due to injury and the position he plays. So if you want to talk 3-4 years down the road, where might the Giants offense be with a hurt Barkley? If you think we'd be okay but not a threat to be a title contender, then what's the big dela letting him go?
And as a result, sticking with Jones in mediocrity if he is that might be the worst possible thing for Dabol after 3-4 years.
Sure. Barf. BUT we are only rolling with baker mayfield until we get the next Mahommes. How long could that possibly take?
True! Better to overpay an average QB and never have a shot a being a real SB contender. Always good to make decisions based on fear!
You just aren't bright enough to realize you are never getting Mahomes. You don't make decsions on stupidity. And your comments are nothing but stupidity.
RE: People really need to stop pretending that if we move
on from Jones, we will automatically be able to draft the next Josh Allen in this years draft.
Who is making that assertion?
The goal is to find a better QB than Jones. And that shouldn't be too hard with the right decision makers in place.
Are you really going to be upset if we move on from Jones? Really? Daniel Jones?
He's not Joe Montana. He's not John Elway. He's not Eli Manning. He's not even Joe Flacco.
Jones is one of the more dispensable QBs currently in the NFL.
Well bw, since the chances of the Giants getting a Hall of Fame QB anytime soon are rather low, there are 27 of them in the SB era, who do you want to get? If they move on from Jones the idea would be to improve the position, not just move on from a player you can't stand. Terps isn't around so lets not pontificate that Case Keenum or Mike Glennon would be an improvement.
You do realize Sy said Dak's second half was as good as any he's seen this year. So, I encourage you to direct similar comments to him as well...
You don't consider him part of the anti-Jones crowd...do you?
No, I don’t consider Sy part of the “we must move past Jones” crowd. I think it’s pretty obvious, he is using this whole year and will continue to do so (next 7 games) to evaluate Jones BEFORE rendering his opinion on what the Giants should do.
He is also pretty smart in realizing that if you move on from Jones, who takes his place? Will the next guy be an upgrade? We all know the draft is a gamble having seen time and time again top rated/drafted kids not living up to the hype.
That is also something very important to ponder…
Step one- should I move past Jones
Step two- how and who to replace him
I hope and trust Schoen and Daboll got this….I will accept their opinion over mine (in other words, if they move past Jones, so will I).
I think all rational posters do support letting the season play out. But it's also reasonable to judge each weekly performance by Jones (not suggesting you have an issue with that).
On a replacement idea for Jones, there are various ways to go on that. IMV, the best idea right now is to continue building a better all-around team and find a QB solution in the '23 draft. And I'm very content going through the inevitable growing pains in that process...
One guy I won’t be upset in seeing replace Jones is Herndon Hooker. I know he tore an ACL, and that concerns me, but this may allow for us to draft him late in round one (around 20) if not injured, he would probably be a top 10 pick.
We can draft him and let him slowly recover while playing Tyrod Taylor or Davis Webb (assuming we don’t sign Jones).
Isn’t Hooker as old as DJ?
RE: People really need to stop pretending that if we move
on from Jones, we will automatically be able to draft the next Josh Allen in this years draft.
It's an absurd thought.
For every Allen that makes it, there are 10 similar QB prospects that dont.
And that's assuming we can even pick in the top 10-15, where most of these prospects end up (Newsflash: we wont be next year).
Maybe we win the lottery and strike gold on a prospect and can develop him over a few years, but it's far more likely we dont.
What a backwards way of thinking. So, the Chiefs shoulda just settled for Alex Smith? Bills shoulda settled for Taylor.
Teams get rid of bad/average QBs all the time, and you're right, it doesn't always work out. However, what if it does? What if the Giants end up with a top 5 QB?
With this coaching staff, that already worked miracles with DJ to make him a top 20-25 QB, imagine what could happen if they groomed one from day one. Stop settling for OK...gotta but a ticket to win the lottery.
I'm going to jump through hoops to justify sticking with jones" is no way to live.
You can't ask players to be fearless but build a team around settling for known average because searching for great is hard and scary.
That's great Hammer, but assertations are not a plan. What is the plan? It's great to say we have to improve and it is very cool to say searching for great is hard and scary, but the goal would be to improve the position. I'm all for actually improving the position, if and when there is a reasonable alternative and just sating that search for greatness is hard and scary does nothing for me. The Giants have X amount of money and draft capital, it needs to be used wisely. If we had the 2nd pick in the draft and their is a guy that Schoen loves there than that's one thing, bringing in Andy Dalton because many blame Jones for every problem on the offense is another. BTW if they use all sorts of draft capital to move up for a QB, what is he going to have around him, because if it's this, he is going to have to be very, very special to overcome it.
RE: RE: People really need to stop pretending that if we move
on from Jones, we will automatically be able to draft the next Josh Allen in this years draft.
It's an absurd thought.
For every Allen that makes it, there are 10 similar QB prospects that dont.
And that's assuming we can even pick in the top 10-15, where most of these prospects end up (Newsflash: we wont be next year).
Maybe we win the lottery and strike gold on a prospect and can develop him over a few years, but it's far more likely we dont.
What a backwards way of thinking. So, the Chiefs shoulda just settled for Alex Smith? Bills shoulda settled for Taylor.
Teams get rid of bad/average QBs all the time, and you're right, it doesn't always work out. However, what if it does? What if the Giants end up with a top 5 QB?
With this coaching staff, that already worked miracles with DJ to make him a top 20-25 QB, imagine what could happen if they groomed one from day one. Stop settling for OK...gotta but a ticket to win the lottery.
And you have to realize that winning the lottery is very very difficult to do. Sure buy a ticket, but that can't be the plan.
I'm going to jump through hoops to justify sticking with jones" is no way to live.
You can't ask players to be fearless but build a team around settling for known average because searching for great is hard and scary.
That's great Hammer, but assertations are not a plan. What is the plan? It's great to say we have to improve and it is very cool to say searching for great is hard and scary, but the goal would be to improve the position. I'm all for actually improving the position, if and when there is a reasonable alternative and just sating that search for greatness is hard and scary does nothing for me. The Giants have X amount of money and draft capital, it needs to be used wisely. If we had the 2nd pick in the draft and their is a guy that Schoen loves there than that's one thing, bringing in Andy Dalton because many blame Jones for every problem on the offense is another. BTW if they use all sorts of draft capital to move up for a QB, what is he going to have around him, because if it's this, he is going to have to be very, very special to overcome it.
You've stated the goal pretty clearly. Improve the QB position, but also, improve the talent level of the roster. Both are needed.
What no one seems willing to accept is that the QB improvement may not happen immediately, and that is why they are clutching on to Jones even though he may very well not be good enough. He's good enough for people to receive happiness from regular season wins. He may not be good enough for this coaching staff and GM to fit their vision and plan.
Sticking with Jones at considerable cost because a better option isn't immediately clear is still not a plan. 30 million in franchise tag money for one year of Jones is 30 million in cap dollars not being spent on the 52 other roster spots or re-signing the players worth keeping.
I'm going to jump through hoops to justify sticking with jones" is no way to live.
You can't ask players to be fearless but build a team around settling for known average because searching for great is hard and scary.
That's great Hammer, but assertations are not a plan. What is the plan? It's great to say we have to improve and it is very cool to say searching for great is hard and scary, but the goal would be to improve the position. I'm all for actually improving the position, if and when there is a reasonable alternative and just sating that search for greatness is hard and scary does nothing for me. The Giants have X amount of money and draft capital, it needs to be used wisely. If we had the 2nd pick in the draft and their is a guy that Schoen loves there than that's one thing, bringing in Andy Dalton because many blame Jones for every problem on the offense is another. BTW if they use all sorts of draft capital to move up for a QB, what is he going to have around him, because if it's this, he is going to have to be very, very special to overcome it.
That's why they call it a rebuild.
Enjoy the 7-4 record all you can but don't let it cloud your judgment. There are still some big pieces missing here and work to do to further develop the roster including at QB. All options to upgrade key positions for the future should be explored versus staying the course with a product that has had some short-term but flawed successes.
The goal is to create a team that can truly compete for a championships.
If he indeed he has worn down after 11 games that is a huge concern.
I agree with you Sy that Dallas is a true SB contender from the NFC due to their defense and the mediocrity this year in the NFC.
As always great job Sy.
The other thing, which is echoed in the game review is Jones. I am actually a big Jones supporter and still think he can improve, but this game worried me. I think, despite the poor oline and rest of the offense we rolled out, he had a few opportunities to really lift up this team and carry them to an upset. I thought he missed out on a few runs as Sy pointed out. I didn’t see the confidence there.
I think Jones can be a winner with a strong oline and some actuall weapons at WR. One major reason that I want the playoffs is to see how Jones does in that setting.
As for Saquon….I love Saquon but he looked so slow and hesitant. I don’t believe his shoulder caused that either. But I have a feeling if Daboll spells Saquon for Brightwell, this might not go well…how would that look? Especially if Brightwell is getting just as many carries.
Lastly, Sy alluded to this but didn’t make a big point- the play calling in the 2nd half was also concerning….no sense of urgency down two TDs….no hurry up two minute offense and a lot of runs still. I was hoping Sy would have given us a bit more of his thoughts on this. That was also concerning.
Bottom line: Jones, Saquon, and Kafka all have to rise up especially next Sunday.
If the Giants defense wasn't held together with tape and glue...and played the 2nd half like they did Green Bay....Cowboys would have list.
I wonder if I am the only one who just skips your "quick" game recap and goes straight to the player evaluations.
Most of us watched the game. And for those who missed it Eric does a very nice recap.
So what I am suggesting - go straight to the player evaluations. What point does the game recap serve?
In fact you could just start right out with the Studs and Duds section with the rest of the evaluations to follow.
I am not looking to criticize here but only trying to be constructive when I say - You are burying the lead.
Agree, if Slayton can catch not perfect passes, why should Barkley not be expected to do the same.
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One of the questions people will ask about Daniel Jones and his future with NYG will revolve around upside. Just how good can he actually be? Best case scenario, what is he? We just watched Dak Prescott throw two interceptions in the first half. He was hit just as much if not more than Jones was throughout the game. Nothing mattered. He comes out in the second half and played some of the best QB I have seen all year from around the league. The numbers did not pop off the page, but it was the complexity of his throws and how precise they were. I do not see that in Jones. Both right now and in the future.
Although I would like to see each QB playing with the other team's receivers. Dallas had guys getting separation all day long. Not so with the Giant receivers.
Is this a downside of having a 1A alpha back? You feel the need to feed him even when he’s not at peak performance? Whereas in a more meritocratic RBBC you may be quicker with a hook? It doesn’t have to be - but usually plays out this way.
of Dallas game.
Quick question: I may have missed this, but I didn't see what happened to the Giants defense that allowed the Dallas run game to smash through it with ease for over 160 yards?
It looked like they had tremendous success running between their left guard (Connor McGovern?) and left tackle but not sure?
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One of the questions people will ask about Daniel Jones and his future with NYG will revolve around upside. Just how good can he actually be? Best case scenario, what is he? We just watched Dak Prescott throw two interceptions in the first half. He was hit just as much if not more than Jones was throughout the game. Nothing mattered. He comes out in the second half and played some of the best QB I have seen all year from around the league. The numbers did not pop off the page, but it was the complexity of his throws and how precise they were. I do not see that in Jones. Both right now and in the future.
Although I would like to see each QB playing with the other team's receivers. Dallas had guys getting separation all day long. Not so with the Giant receivers.
Good point….I was going to mention something like this, but glad someone else did.
Sy does realize Dak has so many more toys to play with and he also had a great ground game to make the passing game work even better. Not to mention the Giants were playing with 4/5 backups in the secondary. I’m not surprised Dak looked good…..for one half at least.
I wonder if I am the only one who just skips your "quick" game recap and goes straight to the player evaluations.
Most of us watched the game. And for those who missed it Eric does a very nice recap.
So what I am suggesting - go straight to the player evaluations. What point does the game recap serve?
In fact you could just start right out with the Studs and Duds section with the rest of the evaluations to follow.
I am not looking to criticize here but only trying to be constructive when I say - You are burying the lead.
I've definitely had the same thought over the years. If Eric would sign off on that, I would alter the approach.
There were defensive alignments on the Giants that they showed on replay that the Center and LG were uncovered and the Cowboys ran it right there.
Also Dallas's Defense is #1 over all and #1 in sacks...
by the way, who is getting open on the Giants?
It's easy for all of us to say DJ is not good enough after that game, but come on.
Dallas's wide receivers and tight ends were catching everything... I mean everything. How many drops did they have?
Dak is putrid and benefits from superior talent around him.
Barkley is either dinged or making business decisions.
That 4th and 1 was catchable and it hit his hands. This is not the first time Barkley dropped a pass. He is not a very good receiver.
Look at the catch a couple of weeks ago that Christian McCarthy made for Garoppolo.. he almost took flight to catch that ball..
you want to be the highest paid RB in football... you make that catch. No excuses.
Maybe thought it was a false start and play was dead, but ended up illegal formation?
1) Was Jones play. A lot has been made about the miss to Barkley on the 4th and 1 flat route. Its worth noting that prior to this year, both Shurmur and Garrett used variations of flat routes in the red zone and Jones was almost always late on the timing. This time we see an errand throw, but that can also be due to him being slow getting his feet in position. This is an old problem popping up again.
2) Was Barkley’s play. Since the Texans game when he got 35 carries, he just has seemed off. I’d question whether he can really handle that type of load. We have 2 other backs that are capable, clearly they need to take some stress off of Saquon.
An evaluator can see a player's footwork and performance on a variety of throws. Jones has certainly improved in many facets of his game. Maybe most notable is his ability to nail crossers in the middle of the field. But these are among the easiest throws on the field, and we do not see him attempt many high difficulty throws that require great touch, timing, outside the hashes.
I agree Jones doesn't rate with Dak as a passer. It seems if he's not thrashing teams with the run, he's generally not productive enough.
Jones has had Golden Tate, Darius Slayton, Kenny Golladay as his #1 WRs here. And the #2's and 3's are even worse. And this has been his entire career here.
I'm not sure how you can state definitively that he can't do it. Unfortunately for him, he hasn't demonstrated that he definitely can, either. And he's not going to get a chance to before his contract is up. It remains a fascinating situation without any parallels I can think of.
Who is Gallup equivalent?
Who is Schultz equivalent?
Who is entirety of o-line equivalent?
Of course you can't see the same level of performance. It may not be there because it cannot possibly be there.
I did not like the Barkley throw, but I have seen RBs make that catch hundreds of times, this was not OBJ 1 hander.
His heart just isnt in it like earlier in the season.
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Always enjoy your player evaluations
I wonder if I am the only one who just skips your "quick" game recap and goes straight to the player evaluations.
Most of us watched the game. And for those who missed it Eric does a very nice recap.
So what I am suggesting - go straight to the player evaluations. What point does the game recap serve?
In fact you could just start right out with the Studs and Duds section with the rest of the evaluations to follow.
I am not looking to criticize here but only trying to be constructive when I say - You are burying the lead.
I've definitely had the same thought over the years. If Eric would sign off on that, I would alter the approach.
Sure... makes sense to me.
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Always enjoy your player evaluations
I wonder if I am the only one who just skips your "quick" game recap and goes straight to the player evaluations.
Most of us watched the game. And for those who missed it Eric does a very nice recap.
So what I am suggesting - go straight to the player evaluations. What point does the game recap serve?
In fact you could just start right out with the Studs and Duds section with the rest of the evaluations to follow.
I am not looking to criticize here but only trying to be constructive when I say - You are burying the lead.
I've definitely had the same thought over the years. If Eric would sign off on that, I would alter the approach.
I always go straight to the player evaluations as well. But I wouldn't move the "Studs and Duds" section. I would keep it where is is. I like to guess the Studs and Duds AFTER reading the player evaluations.
For God’s sake, that is all I wanted to see so we can finally understand what his true upside could be. Unbelievable! We almost got to see that scenario at the end of last year, and then he gets hurt. Eleven games each in both 2021 and 2022 with scrubs at WR and the greatest QB pressure in the NFL.
Dak looking good in the second half? Wow, imagine that!
If you are evaluating Slayton, Hodgins, etc, is it also fair to say “well they don’t have much at QB so who knows how good they can be?” Of course not. No problem evaluating every other position in isolation.
Jones has good games and bad games. Thursday was another bad one. Do not understand why folks are so personally invested in defending every throw the guy makes. The 4th and 1 throw was poor. You don’t have to hate the Giants and despise Jones to acknowledge that.
I haven’t really seen this change over the years. He has tools, but he never has seemed to be able to shake this criticism. On the 4th and 1 play he seemed to hesitate and it led to a bad pass. It reminded me of the 2 point conversions against Tampa in 2020 that could have sent the game to overtime. He hesitated on the throw into the flat. Defender had time to close. (Not sure who remembers this play)…He seems to excel at the down the sideline single read long pass where this is one on one coverage. However passes over th middle where multiple defenders and receivers are crossing he is hesitant to pull the trigger. I think this goes beyond the talent at WR as it apparently plagued him in College too.
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One of the questions people will ask about Daniel Jones and his future with NYG will revolve around upside. Just how good can he actually be? Best case scenario, what is he? We just watched Dak Prescott throw two interceptions in the first half. He was hit just as much if not more than Jones was throughout the game. Nothing mattered. He comes out in the second half and played some of the best QB I have seen all year from around the league. The numbers did not pop off the page, but it was the complexity of his throws and how precise they were. I do not see that in Jones. Both right now and in the future.
This such an important point (bold).
I don't care how much talent a QB has around him, he still has to deliver the ball and make quality decisions. Too many on this board incorrectly assume that if Jones is surrounded by more talent, he will automatically be better. That's faulty logic and lazy.
Nothing is easy in the NFL despite what the many members of the DJFC will have you believe.
If you are evaluating Slayton, Hodgins, etc, is it also fair to say “well they don’t have much at QB so who knows how good they can be?” Of course not. No problem evaluating every other position in isolation.
Jones has good games and bad games. Thursday was another bad one. Do not understand why folks are so personally invested in defending every throw the guy makes. The 4th and 1 throw was poor. You don’t have to hate the Giants and despise Jones to acknowledge that.
They aren't. It's you that made a decision on Jones form the get-go and blasted/talked down anyone that didn't agree with you.
Jones has had Golden Tate, Darius Slayton, Kenny Golladay as his #1 WRs here. And the #2's and 3's are even worse. And this has been his entire career here.
I'm not sure how you can state definitively that he can't do it. Unfortunately for him, he hasn't demonstrated that he definitely can, either. And he's not going to get a chance to before his contract is up. It remains a fascinating situation without any parallels I can think of.
Nobody is denying that Dak has better receivers. It is still feasible to account for a QBs traits in isolation. How does he set, what is the delivery like, what kinds of throws does he attempt, how quick is the release, how does he place the ball, what kind of touch does he have on deliveries, etc... All these and more have little to do with who he is throwing to. It is not true that you can't tell anything from a QB if he doesn't have great receivers.
And while Dak can and does just toss it up at times to his receivers, it is not all he does. He often exhibits touch and superior ball placement on tricky throws, that Jones rarely flashes.
I can deal with him being hurt if that is the case...if he is not where is this hesitancy coming from, again, after it looked to be long gone?
Either way, Barkley's injury history and hesitancy history will make the decision to not resign him possibly easier than I thought.
Appreciate the flexibility Sy and Eric
I expect you will be able to expand on your thoughts on position/individual play. Your player evaluations are what I (we) really admire and want to know.
Who is Gallup equivalent?
Who is Schultz equivalent?
Who is entirety of o-line equivalent?
Of course you can't see the same level of performance. It may not be there because it cannot possibly be there.
I did not like the Barkley throw, but I have seen RBs make that catch hundreds of times, this was not OBJ 1 hander.
+1 in regard to the 4th and 1. Posters are having willful amnesia when in fact the replays from behind that the game showed were that the ball went through his hands. Yes it was a tough catch.
Anyhow, SY had mentioned below on one of his old reports speaking of the fact "imagine if Jones had . . . "
But I have been on board with SY right form the beginning. SY appeared very hopeful during his wining in streak but lately - I had said similar yesterday. Though I've come out and said I lean toward not signing him which he hasn't. Btu certainly he is no longer positive. Just read SY's past comments when things were going well. It had us wondering "what if has better . . ." It just doesn't look like it matters that much.
From SY:
https://www.bigblueinteractive.com/2022/10/18/game-review-new-york-giants-24-baltimore-ravens-20/
"Having the rookie Wan’Dale Robinson back on the field did not look like a lot on paper, but when considering the lack of talent he has been working with at the receiver position, it brought Jones to a higher level. The quick maturation of the rookie tight end is bringing Jones to a higher level. Saquon Barkley staying on the field and playing the best we have seen him is bringing Jones to a higher level. All of that added up and his skill position talent is still bottom third in the league. What kind of level does Jones get to with another high-end receiver or two? It is all projection at this point, but we now have some more information on what happens here when this situation around him trends north."
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Always enjoy your player evaluations
I wonder if I am the only one who just skips your "quick" game recap and goes straight to the player evaluations.
Most of us watched the game. And for those who missed it Eric does a very nice recap.
So what I am suggesting - go straight to the player evaluations. What point does the game recap serve?
In fact you could just start right out with the Studs and Duds section with the rest of the evaluations to follow.
I am not looking to criticize here but only trying to be constructive when I say - You are burying the lead.
I've definitely had the same thought over the years. If Eric would sign off on that, I would alter the approach.
No! Don't you dare!
I value reading your account of the game, because you are seeing it from a professional evaluator's perspective, and even if that were not the case, I still value getting a different perspective.
Please do not axe your recap of the game.
In this particular case, the 4th and 1 play. “Kafka calls a great play, SB is alone in the flat. Jones misfires and ball falls to the ground”. Had you written “Jones threw a perfect pass, SB just couldn’t handle the throw” … different meaning.
When read in comparison to the note around DJ’s passing in the game, against Dax’s passing in the 2nd half, the recap often helps contextualize your thinking.
I do take away a lot from your recaps. That said, whatever is decided really do appreciate what you bring to the site. Your contributions are invaluable to BBI. I look forward to all your posts.
And FWIW, I agree with ChicagoMarty. Sy, your player evaluations are so good, I skip straight to those and skip the game recap. Perhaps save yourself some work and forgo the recap.
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Who is CD Lamb equivalent?
Who is Gallup equivalent?
Who is Schultz equivalent?
Who is entirety of o-line equivalent?
Of course you can't see the same level of performance. It may not be there because it cannot possibly be there.
I did not like the Barkley throw, but I have seen RBs make that catch hundreds of times, this was not OBJ 1 hander.
+1 in regard to the 4th and 1. Posters are having willful amnesia when in fact the replays from behind that the game showed were that the ball went through his hands. Yes it was a tough catch.
Jones just doesn't make enough plays. I'm not saying without a doubt dump him - but he doesn't make "enough."
[quote] Not understand that it is absolutely possible to evaluate a QB in isolation from the players around him?
No, they cannot and they will not. This insanity will continue on this site for months until Schoen makes a decision. DJ's limitations have been self-evident since he was at Duke, as prophesized by Sy himself in the pre-draft ratings. Nothing has changed. And nothing will change. What a colossal waste of time and energy.
That said, not seeing a part of his game ‘now or in the future’.
A Y/N decision on his Giants future is due soon. At 7Ws the Giants are out of the top 10, and if they get to 9-10Ws and a playoffs, they are 18-20 +in the draft, with not many top QBs to draft but a lot of other holes, including possibly replacing injured recent drafted players.
My question, what does SY do about DJ, knowing a QB rebuild put the team another 2 years away from competing.
That said, not seeing a part of his game ‘now or in the future’.
A Y/N decision on his Giants future is due soon. At 7Ws the Giants are out of the top 10, and if they get to 9-10Ws and a playoffs, they are 18-20 +in the draft, with not many top QBs to draft but a lot of other holes, including possibly replacing injured recent drafted players.
My question, what does SY do about DJ, knowing a QB rebuild put the team another 2 years away from competing.
If NYG moves on from DJ, I think Tyrod is next years QB until the replacement for DJ is ready to go.
My take on the two quarterbacks:
Prescott: throws 60/40 good/bad balls.
Jones: throws 40/60 good/bad balls.
Prescott is good, but to my mind not elite. Jones is JAG and that is not enough at QB. We need to find a way to move on from him.
Dallas got Micah Parsons. We traded down to get Kadarius Toney and Evan Neal.
I don't know if we should have stayed pat and taken Parsons. Maybe the problem is that you want as near as a sure thing with a first round pick and Toney just wasn't that.
When I watch Jones, I think of guys like Dilfer, Dalton,Flacco. Not upper tier guys, but if everything broke right, you could have A season and win with them. Schoen and Daboll have said they want to “build something sustainable and consistent here”. That’s not Jones.
I’m betting they put a value on Jones (years and $) and if someone offers him a lot more (very possible), they let him walk draft “their guy” and start Taylor next year. It would likely be a step back in record, but Schoen went through that in Buffalo.
Jones had 6 games left to show he can get it done WITH HIS ARM in the big moments.
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First, I’ll admit I’m pro-DJ.
That said, not seeing a part of his game ‘now or in the future’.
A Y/N decision on his Giants future is due soon. At 7Ws the Giants are out of the top 10, and if they get to 9-10Ws and a playoffs, they are 18-20 +in the draft, with not many top QBs to draft but a lot of other holes, including possibly replacing injured recent drafted players.
My question, what does SY do about DJ, knowing a QB rebuild put the team another 2 years away from competing.
If NYG moves on from DJ, I think Tyrod is next years QB until the replacement for DJ is ready to go.
You’re likely correct.
I’m just concerned about resetting the rebuild back further with a new rookie QB, few available this year, the price/ picks to move up to get one, and the other needs, as I had mentioned.
If you are evaluating Slayton, Hodgins, etc, is it also fair to say “well they don’t have much at QB so who knows how good they can be?” Of course not. No problem evaluating every other position in isolation.
Jones has good games and bad games. Thursday was another bad one. Do not understand why folks are so personally invested in defending every throw the guy makes. The 4th and 1 throw was poor. You don’t have to hate the Giants and despise Jones to acknowledge that.
Mike, you never cease to amaze me. You called Thursday’s game a bad one.
The guy scored two TDs- one passing, one running- had an 88.8 QBRating on the AP I use, had no turnovers and led his team to 20 points. Should have been 4 more had the refs not gotten ticky tacky.
Last week Cousins HAD A BAD GAME and only scored 3 points.
I think i read Dallas is the #2 defensive team in the NFL of some sort- in other words, they can bring it. He had practically no run support at all as Saquon went MIA so basically he had to do it all himself. Like i previously said, i wish he had taken off more, but for some reason he didn’t. I think that hurt us. He also was playing with a very depleted OL which I’m sure had an effect in the game plan.
I wouldn’t classify that as a bad game…just a so so game….nothing to write home about but also nothing to throw rocks at him over.
The second half was another story as you pointed out. I thought the decision to go for it on that fourth down was the turning point of the game. In some sense, it was a capitulation to abandon our game, and play their game. Naturally, the debate on this site is who's fault was it - DJ or SB? But the truth is, it was Daboll's fault. Given the close score, he should have punted and continued the sensible approach of the first half. Instead, DJ threw a terrible pass and SB failed to catch a catchable ball. The entire game turned from that point forward and ended with the Cowboys in full control.
Great to see Thibs as a stud. He is definitely making good progress after his slow start, arguably due to his MCL which is a much more severe injury than most understand. Yes, you can play on it after six weeks, but it took me six months before I was running at full speed after I suffered this injury. Excited to see him pair up with Ojulari.
As to Barkley, I do believe he is not playing with the same level of intensity since the contract discussions broke down. Yes, it may be due to injury, but I would say this is more psychological. He literally carried this team on his back for the first nine games and yet he looks around and sees a do nothing guy like Kenny Golladay making a fortune. And all he must be hearing is how DJ deserves big money. I can't imagine his reaction to the realization that the Giants won't pay him. I am not advocating that they should, but simply recognizing how disgusted he must feel. The guy who is most responsible for the seven wins this year will not be getting a Zeke Elliott contract, but will instead likely get franchised and traded. And all this good stuff while KG and DJ will be getting paid handsomely next year. The word disgust probably doesn't do justice for how SB must feel.
So I will not be surprised if it is DJ and KG who are forced to do the heavy lifting over the next six games... and I will therefore not be surprised if the Giants don't make the playoffs.
As to Barkley, I do believe he is not playing with the same level of intensity since the contract discussions broke down. Yes, it may be due to injury, but I would say this is more psychological. He literally carried this team on his back for the first nine games and yet he looks around and sees a do nothing guy like Kenny Golladay making a fortune. And all he must be hearing is how DJ deserves big money. I can't imagine his reaction to the realization that the Giants won't pay him. I am not advocating that they should, but simply recognizing how disgusted he must feel. The guy who is most responsible for the seven wins this year will not be getting a Zeke Elliott contract, but will instead likely get franchised and traded. And all this good stuff while KG and DJ will be getting paid handsomely next year. The word disgust probably doesn't do justice for how SB must feel.
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One of the questions people will ask about Daniel Jones and his future with NYG will revolve around upside. Just how good can he actually be? Best case scenario, what is he? We just watched Dak Prescott throw two interceptions in the first half. He was hit just as much if not more than Jones was throughout the game. Nothing mattered. He comes out in the second half and played some of the best QB I have seen all year from around the league. The numbers did not pop off the page, but it was the complexity of his throws and how precise they were. I do not see that in Jones. Both right now and in the future.
This such an important point (bold).
I don't care how much talent a QB has around him, he still has to deliver the ball and make quality decisions. Too many on this board incorrectly assume that if Jones is surrounded by more talent, he will automatically be better. That's faulty logic and lazy.
Nothing is easy in the NFL despite what the many members of the DJFC will have you believe.
Too funny….let’s forget the first half, let’s forget the two interceptions, and let’s just look at the passes he made that were good…like the one to that TE who was so wide open there wasn’t anyone near him for 20 yards (the play he leaped over Pinnock).
Bw, I wonder if you would be as gracious to Dimes as you are to Dak if Danny had a first half like Dak did…2 interceptions and no TDs passing or running. I’m glad you are so impressed with Dak for his second half throwing against our backups. Was there anyone within 20 yards of that TE who jumped over a Giant player? Tough throw by Dak indeed…in fact, it was almost over his head.
You left off Mark Bávaro and I’m sure Tiki Barber caught a lot of passes too.
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In comment 15922746 Sean said:
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One of the questions people will ask about Daniel Jones and his future with NYG will revolve around upside. Just how good can he actually be? Best case scenario, what is he? We just watched Dak Prescott throw two interceptions in the first half. He was hit just as much if not more than Jones was throughout the game. Nothing mattered. He comes out in the second half and played some of the best QB I have seen all year from around the league. The numbers did not pop off the page, but it was the complexity of his throws and how precise they were. I do not see that in Jones. Both right now and in the future.
This such an important point (bold).
I don't care how much talent a QB has around him, he still has to deliver the ball and make quality decisions. Too many on this board incorrectly assume that if Jones is surrounded by more talent, he will automatically be better. That's faulty logic and lazy.
Nothing is easy in the NFL despite what the many members of the DJFC will have you believe.
Too funny….let’s forget the first half, let’s forget the two interceptions, and let’s just look at the passes he made that were good…like the one to that TE who was so wide open there wasn’t anyone near him for 20 yards (the play he leaped over Pinnock).
Bw, I wonder if you would be as gracious to Dimes as you are to Dak if Danny had a first half like Dak did…2 interceptions and no TDs passing or running. I’m glad you are so impressed with Dak for his second half throwing against our backups. Was there anyone within 20 yards of that TE who jumped over a Giant player? Tough throw by Dak indeed…in fact, it was almost over his head.
Clearly bbi believes the evil noodle armed bad progression read spirit of Jones took over ESPN annointed god Dax Prescott for those couple of interceptions.
I saw a video replay of that pass, looked to me like it was tipped at LOS and trajectory was changed. Anyone else see it?
And seems to be not running possessed anymore
Would be careful to give him a lot of money. This team may need a hard running move the chains type of RB for lower cost ( and miss out on a few big plays) and invest in another IOL and multiple WRs ( plus develop another TE)
We still have a lot of holes. Can’t out scheme everyone Literally we will see the bottom 1/4 or 1/3 of roster turnover again in 2023
DJ is qb hell. Competitive enough to root for him. And leader. But not a guy who will put us over the top consistently without close to top tier talent on offense
And yes, with what he has to work makes evaluating harder. But I only see glimpses. Too much left on the table ( even with less ingredients)
Baker and Ingram were waaaay better than our #1 WR, whoever the hell that is. Manuel and Bavaro were on a different planet.
Lots of games wind up going to the 4th QTR. The other big thing is there are usually a few plays made or not that change the outcome. Agree that 4th and 1 was huge.
I am good with moving on from Jones if they find someone in the draft. Moving forward, cost and availability in the draft are two big issues. This style of O play opens of the draft pool imv.
For Dallas to win a SB I think they will need two games where Dak wins the game for them. I like him but I have my doubts. I think McCarthy recognizes they will have to be a great running team as part of the equation.
He'll be cut, and lucky to ever see the field again.
Barkley should not be butt hurt after how much he's made for being injured. He should be pressing harder to prove he can do it for an entire season. anything less should see him out the door.
It's becoming obvious that DJ is probably not the long term solution, so the sooner the switch is made, the better, if an alternative is available for drafting.
The two reasons to chill with DJ for another year or two is if you think he's the man for the job (looking more and more doubtful with every game), or if it doesn't look likely a replacement is available in the draft and DJ is willing to take a low cost contract.
I still think Barkley is either hurt, extremely worn down, or both. He's been the main focus of the offense. Others teams obviously know this, and so he's facing a lot of eight man boxes. That increases the amount of hits he takes. The OL is still below average IMO, especially with all the backups playing. I would like to see more of Brightwell and Breida. They are fresher than Barkley, and are less likely to draw the same amount of attention.
Jones looks like he's leaving plays on the field, but he was relentlessly pressured almost immediately on nearly every drop back that I saw. I was surprised that there weren't more designed runs for him.
I'm waiting until the end of the year for a final verdict on what we should do with Barkley and Jones.
Plus, I'd love to hear what Sy has to say about the 'holding' on Thibs that us dunces think is holding but doesn't get called. But, I've noticed Sy is quite careful about bashing the refs, likely to keep himself in good standing around the league.
This such an important point (bold).
I don't care how much talent a QB has around him, he still has to deliver the ball and make quality decisions. Too many on this board incorrectly assume that if Jones is surrounded by more talent, he will automatically be better. That's faulty logic and lazy.
Nothing is easy in the NFL despite what the many members of the DJFC will have you believe.
Too funny….let’s forget the first half, let’s forget the two interceptions, and let’s just look at the passes he made that were good…like the one to that TE who was so wide open there wasn’t anyone near him for 20 yards (the play he leaped over Pinnock).
Bw, I wonder if you would be as gracious to Dimes as you are to Dak if Danny had a first half like Dak did…2 interceptions and no TDs passing or running. I’m glad you are so impressed with Dak for his second half throwing against our backups. Was there anyone within 20 yards of that TE who jumped over a Giant player? Tough throw by Dak indeed…in fact, it was almost over his head.
You do realize Sy said Dak's second half was as good as any he's seen this year. So, I encourage you to direct similar comments to him as well...
You don't consider him part of the anti-Jones crowd...do you?
We can try to hit a home run and get a shiny new toy, but likely will have a midling draft pick.
As far as DJ goes I will wait until the end of the season for my evaluation
Having said it is very hard to compare him to Dak snd his supporting cast in a game review.
He has come up small in the past on big plays. Frustrating!!!
I have complete trust in Schoen and Daboll to make accurate assessments on DJ and SB.
Quote:
This such an important point (bold).
I don't care how much talent a QB has around him, he still has to deliver the ball and make quality decisions. Too many on this board incorrectly assume that if Jones is surrounded by more talent, he will automatically be better. That's faulty logic and lazy.
Nothing is easy in the NFL despite what the many members of the DJFC will have you believe.
Too funny….let’s forget the first half, let’s forget the two interceptions, and let’s just look at the passes he made that were good…like the one to that TE who was so wide open there wasn’t anyone near him for 20 yards (the play he leaped over Pinnock).
Bw, I wonder if you would be as gracious to Dimes as you are to Dak if Danny had a first half like Dak did…2 interceptions and no TDs passing or running. I’m glad you are so impressed with Dak for his second half throwing against our backups. Was there anyone within 20 yards of that TE who jumped over a Giant player? Tough throw by Dak indeed…in fact, it was almost over his head.
You do realize Sy said Dak's second half was as good as any he's seen this year. So, I encourage you to direct similar comments to him as well...
You don't consider him part of the anti-Jones crowd...do you?
I can throw dump off passes for easy TDs exploiting our depleted secondary and non-existent coverage LBs. Zach Wilson can't.
That said, not seeing a part of his game ‘now or in the future’.
A Y/N decision on his Giants future is due soon. At 7Ws the Giants are out of the top 10, and if they get to 9-10Ws and a playoffs, they are 18-20 +in the draft, with not many top QBs to draft but a lot of other holes, including possibly replacing injured recent drafted players.
My question, what does SY do about DJ, knowing a QB rebuild put the team another 2 years away from competing.
I will make a long DJ post at the end of the season with what I would do here
What many need to account for...is if you let DJ walk - where do you go next? An ascending team is going to sign....Baker Mayfield? Jared Goff? Carson Wentz? Geno Smith? Roll with Tyrod?
I have no issue with someone that is Anti-Jones. But you better have an idea on what to do and it better not be "wait for the 2024 Draft"
Barkley. He wants be be paid like a superstar. I haven't seen anything super the last two games which just coincides with contract stuff..coincidence??? Running backs don't get better with age, especially those that are injury prone. I would not be resigning Barkley. Actually it may turn out that not extending his contract was a blessing in disguise, given his play of late.
I would not spend big dollars on Jones and Barkley. We have too many needs and neither player is coming up big as we head down the stretch.
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This such an important point (bold).
I don't care how much talent a QB has around him, he still has to deliver the ball and make quality decisions. Too many on this board incorrectly assume that if Jones is surrounded by more talent, he will automatically be better. That's faulty logic and lazy.
Nothing is easy in the NFL despite what the many members of the DJFC will have you believe.
Too funny….let’s forget the first half, let’s forget the two interceptions, and let’s just look at the passes he made that were good…like the one to that TE who was so wide open there wasn’t anyone near him for 20 yards (the play he leaped over Pinnock).
Bw, I wonder if you would be as gracious to Dimes as you are to Dak if Danny had a first half like Dak did…2 interceptions and no TDs passing or running. I’m glad you are so impressed with Dak for his second half throwing against our backups. Was there anyone within 20 yards of that TE who jumped over a Giant player? Tough throw by Dak indeed…in fact, it was almost over his head.
You do realize Sy said Dak's second half was as good as any he's seen this year. So, I encourage you to direct similar comments to him as well...
You don't consider him part of the anti-Jones crowd...do you?
No, I don’t consider Sy part of the “we must move past Jones” crowd. I think it’s pretty obvious, he is using this whole year and will continue to do so (next 7 games) to evaluate Jones BEFORE rendering his opinion on what the Giants should do.
He is also pretty smart in realizing that if you move on from Jones, who takes his place? Will the next guy be an upgrade? We all know the draft is a gamble having seen time and time again top rated/drafted kids not living up to the hype.
That is also something very important to ponder…
Step one- should I move past Jones
Step two- how and who to replace him
I hope and trust Schoen and Daboll got this….I will accept their opinion over mine (in other words, if they move past Jones, so will I).
Agreed. Dak threw several 3rd down passes high and with confidence that Gallup and Shult and even Frederick would go up and get it.
Sy says something positive about Jones "he's the guy! See Sy said so!"
Sy says something negative about Jones "ehh what does he know?"
I would love to see Jones step on to the field just once with the amount of talent Dak had out there with him. Dak made several throws in that second half that were less than perfect and his guys made plays for him. If we swapped QB’s that game the results would be the same
You do realize Sy said Dak's second half was as good as any he's seen this year. So, I encourage you to direct similar comments to him as well...
You don't consider him part of the anti-Jones crowd...do you?
No, I don’t consider Sy part of the “we must move past Jones” crowd. I think it’s pretty obvious, he is using this whole year and will continue to do so (next 7 games) to evaluate Jones BEFORE rendering his opinion on what the Giants should do.
He is also pretty smart in realizing that if you move on from Jones, who takes his place? Will the next guy be an upgrade? We all know the draft is a gamble having seen time and time again top rated/drafted kids not living up to the hype.
That is also something very important to ponder…
Step one- should I move past Jones
Step two- how and who to replace him
I hope and trust Schoen and Daboll got this….I will accept their opinion over mine (in other words, if they move past Jones, so will I).
I think all rational posters do support letting the season play out. But it's also reasonable to judge each weekly performance by Jones (not suggesting you have an issue with that).
On a replacement idea for Jones, there are various ways to go on that. IMV, the best idea right now is to continue building a better all-around team and find a QB solution in the '23 draft. And I'm very content going through the inevitable growing pains in that process...
Appreciate the flexibility Sy and Eric
I expect you will be able to expand on your thoughts on position/individual play. Your player evaluations are what I (we) really admire and want to know.
Hahaha - yep -- me too
I have never thought dak was or did anything “special”. Solid starter, good leader but nothing elite in his game. He does a decent job with a stacked deck of talent.
The pronounced difference I saw between the 2 teams passing games was lamb abusing Holmes and gallop ripping down balls in spite of good coverage.
The first half …when under pressure and before we lost flott and went to cb 6/7/8? He was the reason they were losing.
I agree he was better in the 2nd half but I don’t think they threw it 10 times and the only wow throw was the TD to the tight end which was against an inexplicable defense. Dallas ran the ball down our throats. Passed when and how they wanted with 1 legit starter in the back 7.
I do agree that the lack of running the qb has been detrimental not just this week but the last few. I have seen teams do a better job and place a priority on taking that away but it seems the scramble runs are missing as well as some called runs. It seems more important now that the line isn’t run blocking ver well lately on top of the usual pass pro struggles. Giants offense has to steal some 3rd down conversions
It’s hard to dissect some of the short comings with so many injuries but I feel like the coaching staff has not adjusted well to the “blueprint” Seattle put on film. I just don’t feel like offensively our coaches have given the team an advantage the last cpl weeks. McCarthy is not good but I have a ton of respect for the coordinators.
I would not call the 4th and 1 “the play of the game” but I do find it interesting that the blame is placed on 1 person. That was not the general take of the national media or those without any investment in the giants.
There were several pivotal plays and I would put that in the 5-10 range. Besides the 2 calls that swung 8 points there were 2 punts that should have been downed inside the 5, KT missed sack, 2-3 3&longs Giants margin against a good team is so small they need to make 8 of the 10 pivotal plays in a game like that and turn this picks into more then 3 points.
Hoping the mini bye is a good rest and mental reset. Really want to see this team make the playoffs and finish strong
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I do the same
Appreciate the flexibility Sy and Eric
I expect you will be able to expand on your thoughts on position/individual play. Your player evaluations are what I (we) really admire and want to know.
Hahaha - yep -- me too
Yeah I don’t read any of the recap. I go straight to the positions reviews and read from there
I still think Barkley is either hurt, extremely worn down, or both. He's been the main focus of the offense. Others teams obviously know this, and so he's facing a lot of eight man boxes. That increases the amount of hits he takes. The OL is still below average IMO, especially with all the backups playing. I would like to see more of Brightwell and Breida. They are fresher than Barkley, and are less likely to draw the same amount of attention.
Jones looks like he's leaving plays on the field, but he was relentlessly pressured almost immediately on nearly every drop back that I saw. I was surprised that there weren't more designed runs for him.
I'm waiting until the end of the year for a final verdict on what we should do with Barkley and Jones.
Who takes his place? Whatever. There are always options. You can get this level of quarterback play from a lot of players. Spend the money to build the rest of the team, pick a couple of QBs in the draft, it doesn’t even need to be a number one pick, and give yourself some options. Or identify a couple of college quarterbacks coming out on the next year that you want and spend what is necessary to get one. You are going to spend resources trying to rescue Jones iffy career otherwise.
I wonder if I am the only one who just skips your "quick" game recap and goes straight to the player evaluations.
Most of us watched the game. And for those who missed it Eric does a very nice recap.
So what I am suggesting - go straight to the player evaluations. What point does the game recap serve?
In fact you could just start right out with the Studs and Duds section with the rest of the evaluations to follow.
I am not looking to criticize here but only trying to be constructive when I say - You are burying the lead.
CM, you’re not the only one. LOVE the player evaluations and also find myself skipping right to them. Great read and asset for the site and its readers. Thanks Sy!
Forget it, he's rolling.
1 of them is that nobody is open. All due respect that is not something that can be determined from the broadcast copy
I watch the all 22 most weeks (not this week yet) There are times he can’t find the open guy. But more often there is no open guy.
The time from snap to throw CAN be a function of good pass protection but watching the games it seems obvious that the extra time for jones snap to throw is designed movement and scrambles. When they do use straight drop back it is very rare the qb is not moved off his spot. I get that is not “ relentless pressure” in your view but if you think of relentless as extremely often but not necessarily dire it is more true then not
I’m not saying that Jones doesn’t miss guys or should or should not be on the team next year. Only that our receivers need to be sceemed open because they aren’t beating corners on raw talent.
I have never thought dak was or did anything “special”. Solid starter, good leader but nothing elite in his game. He does a decent job with a stacked deck of talent.
The pronounced difference I saw between the 2 teams passing games was lamb abusing Holmes and gallop ripping down balls in spite of good coverage.
The first half …when under pressure and before we lost flott and went to cb 6/7/8? He was the reason they were losing.
I agree he was better in the 2nd half but I don’t think they threw it 10 times and the only wow throw was the TD to the tight end which was against an inexplicable defense. Dallas ran the ball down our throats. Passed when and how they wanted with 1 legit starter in the back 7.
I do agree that the lack of running the qb has been detrimental not just this week but the last few. I have seen teams do a better job and place a priority on taking that away but it seems the scramble runs are missing as well as some called runs. It seems more important now that the line isn’t run blocking ver well lately on top of the usual pass pro struggles. Giants offense has to steal some 3rd down conversions
It’s hard to dissect some of the short comings with so many injuries but I feel like the coaching staff has not adjusted well to the “blueprint” Seattle put on film. I just don’t feel like offensively our coaches have given the team an advantage the last cpl weeks. McCarthy is not good but I have a ton of respect for the coordinators.
I would not call the 4th and 1 “the play of the game” but I do find it interesting that the blame is placed on 1 person. That was not the general take of the national media or those without any investment in the giants.
There were several pivotal plays and I would put that in the 5-10 range. Besides the 2 calls that swung 8 points there were 2 punts that should have been downed inside the 5, KT missed sack, 2-3 3&longs Giants margin against a good team is so small they need to make 8 of the 10 pivotal plays in a game like that and turn this picks into more then 3 points.
Hoping the mini bye is a good rest and mental reset. Really want to see this team make the playoffs and finish strong
Did you see the All-22 from the botched 4th and 1? There is a more than 50% chance Barkley scores on the play if the throw was there.
I don't think Dak is special. I think he has and will continue to rank as one of the best 10-12 QBs in football. Prescott made at least 5 throws with a pass rusher inches away or already on him and rarely made the receiver adjust. Good receivers or not, they were impressive throws. One after the other. Let's not act like he s throwing to Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce here.
I have never thought dak was or did anything “special”. Solid starter, good leader but nothing elite in his game. He does a decent job with a stacked deck of talent.
The pronounced difference I saw between the 2 teams passing games was lamb abusing Holmes and gallop ripping down balls in spite of good coverage.
The first half …when under pressure and before we lost flott and went to cb 6/7/8? He was the reason they were losing.
I agree he was better in the 2nd half but I don’t think they threw it 10 times and the only wow throw was the TD to the tight end which was against an inexplicable defense. Dallas ran the ball down our throats. Passed when and how they wanted with 1 legit starter in the back 7.
I do agree that the lack of running the qb has been detrimental not just this week but the last few. I have seen teams do a better job and place a priority on taking that away but it seems the scramble runs are missing as well as some called runs. It seems more important now that the line isn’t run blocking ver well lately on top of the usual pass pro struggles. Giants offense has to steal some 3rd down conversions
It’s hard to dissect some of the short comings with so many injuries but I feel like the coaching staff has not adjusted well to the “blueprint” Seattle put on film. I just don’t feel like offensively our coaches have given the team an advantage the last cpl weeks. McCarthy is not good but I have a ton of respect for the coordinators.
I would not call the 4th and 1 “the play of the game” but I do find it interesting that the blame is placed on 1 person. That was not the general take of the national media or those without any investment in the giants.
There were several pivotal plays and I would put that in the 5-10 range. Besides the 2 calls that swung 8 points there were 2 punts that should have been downed inside the 5, KT missed sack, 2-3 3&longs Giants margin against a good team is so small they need to make 8 of the 10 pivotal plays in a game like that and turn this picks into more then 3 points.
Hoping the mini bye is a good rest and mental reset. Really want to see this team make the playoffs and finish strong
But Jones oftem botches critical throws, throwing to the wrong side etc. In this case a properly placed ball is a big play. That's the problem. It was a big play left on the field.
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You do realize Sy said Dak's second half was as good as any he's seen this year. So, I encourage you to direct similar comments to him as well...
You don't consider him part of the anti-Jones crowd...do you?
No, I don’t consider Sy part of the “we must move past Jones” crowd. I think it’s pretty obvious, he is using this whole year and will continue to do so (next 7 games) to evaluate Jones BEFORE rendering his opinion on what the Giants should do.
He is also pretty smart in realizing that if you move on from Jones, who takes his place? Will the next guy be an upgrade? We all know the draft is a gamble having seen time and time again top rated/drafted kids not living up to the hype.
That is also something very important to ponder…
Step one- should I move past Jones
Step two- how and who to replace him
I hope and trust Schoen and Daboll got this….I will accept their opinion over mine (in other words, if they move past Jones, so will I).
I think all rational posters do support letting the season play out. But it's also reasonable to judge each weekly performance by Jones (not suggesting you have an issue with that).
On a replacement idea for Jones, there are various ways to go on that. IMV, the best idea right now is to continue building a better all-around team and find a QB solution in the '23 draft. And I'm very content going through the inevitable growing pains in that process...
One guy I won’t be upset in seeing replace Jones is Herndon Hooker. I know he tore an ACL, and that concerns me, but this may allow for us to draft him late in round one (around 20) if not injured, he would probably be a top 10 pick.
We can draft him and let him slowly recover while playing Tyrod Taylor or Davis Webb (assuming we don’t sign Jones).
you don’t know what you were looking at and think a professional offense is like your local flag tag league where you throw it to the biggest kid on the field. Prescott was correctly reading the defense and that ball was coming out accurately and on time. Prescott was 10-10 and 2 td’s to receivers other than Gallup and Lamb. You think that was an accident? [/quote]
I don’t think it was an accident. I also don’t think it was overly impressive. Dallas dominated the LOS and ran the ball down our throats. Dak completed 6 or 8 passes against a practice squad defensive backfield. There was one throw I was really impressed with. I think dak is a good qb. Not a great qb. If you think he’s great that ok with me. You can DR dak if you like.
If you couldn’t see how overmatched the dbs were then I think it’s you that don’t know what your watching
Agree with that. I thought Jones had an awful game and missed a lot of throws. But I am so tired of other teams players making plays where it seems like we rarely do. Saquon has been average at best these last 2 weeks.
I am guessing he meant Meggett
Well they have no threat of a passing game and Jones is part of the passing game.
We’re accusing Barkley of quitting on the season? That’s a hell of an accusation. And probably worse than any bad thing that’s been said about Daniel Jones. It’s insane the excuse you’re willing to make for Jones, while accusing Barkley of quitting.
How did Jones earn all this good will?
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some interesting takes.
I have never thought dak was or did anything “special”. Solid starter, good leader but nothing elite in his game. He does a decent job with a stacked deck of talent.
The pronounced difference I saw between the 2 teams passing games was lamb abusing Holmes and gallop ripping down balls in spite of good coverage.
The first half …when under pressure and before we lost flott and went to cb 6/7/8? He was the reason they were losing.
I agree he was better in the 2nd half but I don’t think they threw it 10 times and the only wow throw was the TD to the tight end which was against an inexplicable defense. Dallas ran the ball down our throats. Passed when and how they wanted with 1 legit starter in the back 7.
I do agree that the lack of running the qb has been detrimental not just this week but the last few. I have seen teams do a better job and place a priority on taking that away but it seems the scramble runs are missing as well as some called runs. It seems more important now that the line isn’t run blocking ver well lately on top of the usual pass pro struggles. Giants offense has to steal some 3rd down conversions
It’s hard to dissect some of the short comings with so many injuries but I feel like the coaching staff has not adjusted well to the “blueprint” Seattle put on film. I just don’t feel like offensively our coaches have given the team an advantage the last cpl weeks. McCarthy is not good but I have a ton of respect for the coordinators.
I would not call the 4th and 1 “the play of the game” but I do find it interesting that the blame is placed on 1 person. That was not the general take of the national media or those without any investment in the giants.
There were several pivotal plays and I would put that in the 5-10 range. Besides the 2 calls that swung 8 points there were 2 punts that should have been downed inside the 5, KT missed sack, 2-3 3&longs Giants margin against a good team is so small they need to make 8 of the 10 pivotal plays in a game like that and turn this picks into more then 3 points.
Hoping the mini bye is a good rest and mental reset. Really want to see this team make the playoffs and finish strong
Did you see the All-22 from the botched 4th and 1? There is a more than 50% chance Barkley scores on the play if the throw was there.
I don't think Dak is special. I think he has and will continue to rank as one of the best 10-12 QBs in football. Prescott made at least 5 throws with a pass rusher inches away or already on him and rarely made the receiver adjust. Good receivers or not, they were impressive throws. One after the other. Let's not act like he s throwing to Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce here.
I agree with all of it but I am not 100% sold on Barkley catching it. Barkley just isn't playing well and honestly he is just not a guy I spend our cap space on for 2023 and beyond..
And while the play design was excellent it is also Kafka who is reposonsible to have the substitution done correctly and the 10 men falls on him
And I didn’t love the call in the first place. I thought daboll jumped the gun with aggressiveness.
But the call was made. The play was well designed. We fucked up the substitution. The throw was poor and the ball was dropped
I see it as a team failure. And not the reason we lost. It was a failed conversion in a 1 point game in the 3rd quarter.
It hurt. It was part of the reason we lost. Just not THE reason
Schoen will continue scouting college QBs hard to find the next Mahomes, in the meantime. While he does that, the Giants QB situation will be improved and stabilized.
Did you see the All-22 from the botched 4th and 1? There is a more than 50% chance Barkley scores on the play if the throw was there.
I don't think Dak is special. I think he has and will continue to rank as one of the best 10-12 QBs in football. Prescott made at least 5 throws with a pass rusher inches away or already on him and rarely made the receiver adjust. Good receivers or not, they were impressive throws. One after the other. Let's not act like he s throwing to Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce here.
Sy - there has been a lot of debate on the board whether Barkley should have caught that pass from Jones. I don't mean to lead the witness here, but I think that would have been a very difficult ask for SB to pull that in. What's your view?
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Did you see the All-22 from the botched 4th and 1? There is a more than 50% chance Barkley scores on the play if the throw was there.
I don't think Dak is special. I think he has and will continue to rank as one of the best 10-12 QBs in football. Prescott made at least 5 throws with a pass rusher inches away or already on him and rarely made the receiver adjust. Good receivers or not, they were impressive throws. One after the other. Let's not act like he s throwing to Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce here.
Sy - there has been a lot of debate on the board whether Barkley should have caught that pass from Jones. I don't mean to lead the witness here, but I think that would have been a very difficult ask for SB to pull that in. What's your view?
He needs to catch the goddam ball. He should not get a criticism pass... Barkley plays small in big moments.
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I think SB should have caught that pass. Sometimes passes aren’t perfect. Make a play!!
I did not see it tipped but it happened so fast I could be wrong. If that's the case then wasn't DJ fault
I saw a video replay of that pass, looked to me like it was tipped at LOS and trajectory was changed. Anyone else see it?
But Jones oftem botches critical throws, throwing to the wrong side etc. In this case a properly placed ball is a big play. That's the problem. It was a big play left on the field.
Yes it was a big play left on the field by BOTH players
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I think SB should have caught that pass. Sometimes passes aren’t perfect. Make a play!!
I saw a video replay of that pass, looked to me like it was tipped at LOS and trajectory was changed. Anyone else see it?
I watched the replay numerous times. It definitely appeared that the trajectory of the pass changed slightly but the ball retained the exact spiral so there's that.
Sure. Barf. BUT we are only rolling with baker mayfield until we get the next Mahommes. How long could that possibly take?
You think DJ has been put in a bad environment? Take a look at what Baker’s been through. A perfect “buy low” situation.
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Earnest Gray, Johnny Perkins, Byron Williams, Stacy Robinson, Lionel Manuel, Bobby Johnson, Odessa Turner, Mark Ingram, and Stephen Baker. Not exactly a fountain of receiving talent there.
You left off Mark Bávaro and I’m sure Tiki Barber caught a lot of passes too.
Yeah, it's close.
Gray, Perkins, Robinson were all second rounders. Ingram was a 1, Baker a three and Turner and Bavaro were 4s. Manuel was a 7th.
Slayton was a fifth, Hodgins was a sixth, Cager, Hudson, Myrick and Johnson were not drafted.
Yep, very comparable.
Plan B won’t be exciting either. Mayfield is as good a plan B as we are likely to have as an option. In Daboll/Kafka I trust
You think DJ has been put in a bad environment? Take a look at what Baker’s been through. A perfect “buy low” situation.
JimG might be interesting, too. He's playing pretty well. But he might continue to be on a year-to-year deals based on this stigma he is success is more the system than him.
I'd give him a long, long look for a one-year deal...
You think DJ has been put in a bad environment? Take a look at what Baker’s been through. A perfect “buy low” situation.
The knock on Baker is that you surround him with tons of SB caliber talent in Cleveland and he pretty much sucked.
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Baker is my answer. No one’s going to give him a big contract at this stage and he’s an upgrade in my opinion.
You think DJ has been put in a bad environment? Take a look at what Baker’s been through. A perfect “buy low” situation.
The knock on Baker is that you surround him with tons of SB caliber talent in Cleveland and he pretty much sucked.
In 2020, Mayfield was very good. And I think that Browns roster has been overrated by the media/experts for a few years now...
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Baker is my answer. No one’s going to give him a big contract at this stage and he’s an upgrade in my opinion.
You think DJ has been put in a bad environment? Take a look at what Baker’s been through. A perfect “buy low” situation.
The knock on Baker is that you surround him with tons of SB caliber talent in Cleveland and he pretty much sucked.
2020, when they had their best roster he was good in the regular season and the post season. They were a fumble through the end zone from going to the AFC title game.
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In comment 15922948 Greg from LI said:
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Earnest Gray, Johnny Perkins, Byron Williams, Stacy Robinson, Lionel Manuel, Bobby Johnson, Odessa Turner, Mark Ingram, and Stephen Baker. Not exactly a fountain of receiving talent there.
You left off Mark Bávaro and I’m sure Tiki Barber caught a lot of passes too.
Yeah, it's close.
Gray, Perkins, Robinson were all second rounders. Ingram was a 1, Baker a three and Turner and Bavaro were 4s. Manuel was a 7th.
Slayton was a fifth, Hodgins was a sixth, Cager, Hudson, Myrick and Johnson were not drafted.
Yep, very comparable.
Nice catch k2….I didn’t have any recollection when those guys were drafted. Barely remember some of them.
I think this game put the nail in Jones' coffin for a long contract. He was pretty bad on a few short throws to open guys. I was hoping that Daboll had sorted him out as he improved each week. After that game, I think Schoen and Daboll saw all they needed to see.
Now, I will disagree with you on Dak in this game. I would rate him as you do vs the other QBs in the league and think he is a lot better than BBI gives him credit for. However, he was just throwing balls in Lamb's direction and the guy was making one hand grabs and abusing the DBs. Jones does not have anyone, anywhere near that level of competence at WR. Throw in Gallup who was dragging Flott down the field like toilet paper stuck to his shoe. Those guys just outmuscled the Giants DBs. Yes Dak got the balls out and near his WRs, but you need to be fair about it. It wasn't that Dak did anything special IMV, he just got it out near his WRs and when you are throwing against the 4th and 5th string CBs you have a VG chance of a completion. Yes, Dak was stout in the pocket and I am not diminishing that. He stood in there and got smacked. I know I was feeling pretty frustrated that he kept getting completions in spite of decent pressure.
Anyway, just my POV.
I don't think Barkley gets resigned unless Mara gets involved.
Jones is a low end starting QB and should only get paid as such.
If I were Dabol I would tell Jones and Barkley if you want the big money now is the time to earn it. No more excuses. You two are supposed to be our best players, well than, elevate the play of those around you.
I think this game put the nail in Jones' coffin for a long contract. He was pretty bad on a few short throws to open guys. I was hoping that Daboll had sorted him out as he improved each week. After that game, I think Schoen and Daboll saw all they needed to see.
Now, I will disagree with you on Dak in this game. I would rate him as you do vs the other QBs in the league and think he is a lot better than BBI gives him credit for. However, he was just throwing balls in Lamb's direction and the guy was making one hand grabs and abusing the DBs. Jones does not have anyone, anywhere near that level of competence at WR. Throw in Gallup who was dragging Flott down the field like toilet paper stuck to his shoe. Those guys just outmuscled the Giants DBs. Yes Dak got the balls out and near his WRs, but you need to be fair about it. It wasn't that Dak did anything special IMV, he just got it out near his WRs and when you are throwing against the 4th and 5th string CBs you have a VG chance of a completion. Yes, Dak was stout in the pocket and I am not diminishing that. He stood in there and got smacked. I know I was feeling pretty frustrated that he kept getting completions in spite of decent pressure.
Anyway, just my POV.
Dak is a top 10-12 guy...very overrated mainly because he is the Cowboys QB.
He needs to win a playoff game to elevate above this current level.
DJ was playing to a top 15-17 level...until these last 2 games...where he has reverted back to 20-23 type level.
Both he and Saquon are driving all of us nuts because we all know what happens when the season ends and we have to make some of the biggest decisions in a long time with these 2..
With Barkley, it might also be easy. If he wants to be paid as one of the highest paid RBs, if not the highest, that’s one thing. On the other hand, if he is playing hurt, considering the amount of time he’s missed over the past few years, or played hurt over the past few year, I don’t think Schoen will want to deal with that.
Dak is putrid and benefits from superior talent around him.
Barkley is either dinged or making
Hes not putrid in any way. This is the Giants fan in you talking. You want to argue that he's not top 10, go for it, but 'putrid' is not Prescott, it's flatly inaccurate.
You think DJ has been put in a bad environment? Take a look at what Baker’s been through. A perfect “buy low” situation.
The Browns were loaded on offense when he was there and he was very ineffective.
The vibe coming from the DJFC side of the fence seems to be, sign him up long term. That isn't all that attractive to me, especially if the cost is higher than 20s/yr with enough guarantees to make it painful to dump him.
Obviously, the full evaluation/decision comes at the end of the year, but we're quite a ways into the season and the waters are just as muddy as when it began. That isn't cause for optimism.
Only on BBI...
Cowboys have a knack for underperforming in the playoffs. Don't see them having guaranteed against any of the following teams - Bucs, Eagles, or 49ers.
One note re: Pollard - probably better at this point in Zeke;s career, but he's not Zeke. Zeke did not get enough credit for his toughness, breaking tackles.
The vibe coming from the DJFC side of the fence seems to be, sign him up long term. That isn't all that attractive to me, especially if the cost is higher than 20s/yr with enough guarantees to make it painful to dump him.
Obviously, the full evaluation/decision comes at the end of the year, but we're quite a ways into the season and the waters are just as muddy as when it began. That isn't cause for optimism.
Only on BBI...
Agree...did they watch the Carolina game? We could have lost if he wasn't constantly missing open receivers. Pass.
Personally, I think it is rare to find a long term solution thru FA. It can happen. Wayyy more often, the FA QBs are either stopgap, or a discovery of why the original team let the QB go.
But, I think a point to be made is that stopgap alternatives to DJ should be available if DJ gets a better offer, or if one, or both, parties decide to move on. In that light, BM might be a consideration.
Should the unspeakable happen, and Giants fall out of the wild card race, I wouldn't mind seeing what TT can do, to see if he should be the stop gap. Of course, that would put the nail in the coffin on any chance of re-signing DJ.
But Jones oftem botches critical throws, throwing to the wrong side etc. In this case a properly placed ball is a big play. That's the problem. It was a big play left on the field.
Exactly. The idea that a QB shouldn’t be blamed for a very bad throw is just absurd. He missed on 2 other throws in the flat to James, one of which James made a fantastic catch on. An NFL QB has to make those throws. Hell, a HS QB does too.
Cowboys have a knack for underperforming in the playoffs. Don't see them having guaranteed against any of the following teams - Bucs, Eagles, or 49ers.
One note re: Pollard - probably better at this point in Zeke;s career, but he's not Zeke. Zeke did not get enough credit for his toughness, breaking tackles.
Agreed, they also have the uninspiring Mike McCarthay as HC. Let’s see how it plays out before crowning their asses.
And a play for Rodgers or something along those lines isnt a solution either.
Jones has turned himself into a solid, if not spectacular, QB. Will he ever be a tier 1 guy? Maybe not. But he still has the arrow pointing up if we can finally get him a few weapons. He's made strides this year with literally nothing and he can continue to make strides as he's only just now reaching his prime.
Will Barkley ever be Jim Brown? Probably not. But again, he's a real solid RB. Probably a top 5 RB in the league.
These arent players you move on from...
Not when you also have your franchise LT, top notch Edge rusher, elite young safety tandem, and quality pieces along the d line already in tow.
If the Giants want to see how far Daboll can take them, they need to keep the nucleus intact and ADD to what we already have. Another draft and some much needed free agency cash next year could do wonders for this team.
The thought of moving on from Jones and Barkley is tiresome and really shows a lack of pulse on what the overall situation with the Giants is right now.
And a play for Rodgers or something along those lines isnt a solution either.
Jones has turned himself into a solid, if not spectacular, QB. Will he ever be a tier 1 guy? Maybe not. But he still has the arrow pointing up if we can finally get him a few weapons. He's made strides this year with literally nothing and he can continue to make strides as he's only just now reaching his prime.
Will Barkley ever be Jim Brown? Probably not. But again, he's a real solid RB. Probably a top 5 RB in the league.
These arent players you move on from...
Not when you also have your franchise LT, top notch Edge rusher, elite young safety tandem, and quality pieces along the d line already in tow.
If the Giants want to see how far Daboll can take them, they need to keep the nucleus intact and ADD to what we already have. Another draft and some much needed free agency cash next year could do wonders for this team.
The thought of moving on from Jones and Barkley is tiresome and really shows a lack of pulse on what the overall situation with the Giants is right now.
You have a point if Jones and Barkley are affordable. If they want break the bank deals, that's where you ask if they're worth it.
And a play for Rodgers or something along those lines isnt a solution either.
Jones has turned himself into a solid, if not spectacular, QB. Will he ever be a tier 1 guy? Maybe not. But he still has the arrow pointing up if we can finally get him a few weapons. He's made strides this year with literally nothing and he can continue to make strides as he's only just now reaching his prime.
Will Barkley ever be Jim Brown? Probably not. But again, he's a real solid RB. Probably a top 5 RB in the league.
These arent players you move on from...
Not when you also have your franchise LT, top notch Edge rusher, elite young safety tandem, and quality pieces along the d line already in tow.
If the Giants want to see how far Daboll can take them, they need to keep the nucleus intact and ADD to what we already have. Another draft and some much needed free agency cash next year could do wonders for this team.
The thought of moving on from Jones and Barkley is tiresome and really shows a lack of pulse on what the overall situation with the Giants is right now.
These are exactly the players you move on from. Barkley, because he's a RB and Jones because if everything is perfect he might win a couple playoff games, but overall he's a passenger and not the driver of the offense.
Why not see what BD et al can do developing raw talent like he did with JA in Buffalo? We gave him a vase and told him to make it a bowl. Let's give him the wet clay and see what he molds
And what young talent is Daboll going to mold? We arent finding anything better than Jones in the draft after the 15th pick unless it's a project that will take years to develop.
As mentioned before, Kafka and Wink arent going to wait around for that...
No thanks.
Sign Jones to a friendly 4 year deal and tag Barkley. Focus on improving the current roster and getting healthy in 2023.
Agree Elliott is likely gone but Pollard is a FA as well. Very interesting with him. He has only carried the ball more than 15 times twice in his career but is clearly an excellent player. What do you pay a guy like that
It's an absurd thought.
For every Allen that makes it, there are 10 similar QB prospects that dont.
And that's assuming we can even pick in the top 10-15, where most of these prospects end up (Newsflash: we wont be next year).
Maybe we win the lottery and strike gold on a prospect and can develop him over a few years, but it's far more likely we dont.
It's an absurd thought.
For every Allen that makes it, there are 10 similar QB prospects that dont.
And that's assuming we can even pick in the top 10-15, where most of these prospects end up (Newsflash: we wont be next year).
Maybe we win the lottery and strike gold on a prospect and can develop him over a few years, but it's far more likely we dont.
Nobody's pretending that. For some of us we're treading water with Jones. Almost any forst or 2nd round QB will have a higher ceiling than Jones.
Also, I'd like to know how raw they are and how long it will take for them to reach their ceiling. That's relevant because...
if we want to win with this current coaching staff, time isnt on our side.
And we can replace what Jones gives us very easily. Draft a guy for upside. Get a mediocre placeholder QB as contingency- could be Jones or any of the other cheap QBs in his class.
If the FO / coaches really don't like any of the QBs available in the draft, maybe we stay in a holding pattern with Jones or one of his peers for another year, but we are going to have to address QB at some point soon.
And what young talent is Daboll going to mold? We arent finding anything better than Jones in the draft after the 15th pick unless it's a project that will take years to develop.
As mentioned before, Kafka and Wink arent going to wait around for that...
No thanks.
Sign Jones to a friendly 4 year deal and tag Barkley. Focus on improving the current roster and getting healthy in 2023.
Lol Barkley and the defense are why they're at 7-4. You think it's coincidence Jones has looked worse when the run game is completely taken away?
It was pretty funny during the Thanksgiving game when the broadcast was talking about the NFCE having the best winning percentage in the NFL, you know what the accompanying graphic was? SB and the three other NFCE QBs.
Jones is completely a passenger
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Is that a joke? He is the only reason we are sitting at 7-4.
And what young talent is Daboll going to mold? We arent finding anything better than Jones in the draft after the 15th pick unless it's a project that will take years to develop.
As mentioned before, Kafka and Wink arent going to wait around for that...
No thanks.
Sign Jones to a friendly 4 year deal and tag Barkley. Focus on improving the current roster and getting healthy in 2023.
Lol Barkley and the defense are why they're at 7-4. You think it's coincidence Jones has looked worse when the run game is completely taken away?
It was pretty funny during the Thanksgiving game when the broadcast was talking about the NFCE having the best winning percentage in the NFL, you know what the accompanying graphic was? SB and the three other NFCE QBs.
Jones is completely a passenger
This is a clown response. Jones has led us to at least four come from behind victories this year.
Jones a passenger? Below average? Terrible?
Are the people saying this the same people that were lobbying to mortgage the future for Russell Wilson in the off-season?
Or were they the ones saying that when Jones went out last season that Fromm and Glennon would be just as good as Jones?
I get people being fired up in game threads saying some dumb shit, but get a hold of yourselves.
When you have a QB that nobody respects and puts 8-9 in the box...yeah, that effects Saquon in a big way.
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Barf 🤮
Sure. Barf. BUT we are only rolling with baker mayfield until we get the next Mahommes. How long could that possibly take?
True! Better to overpay an average QB and never have a shot a being a real SB contender. Always good to make decisions based on fear!
The thought of moving on from Jones and Barkley is tiresome and really shows a lack of pulse on what the overall situation with the Giants is right now.
The Giants probably won't do it but you're overrating what possibly Jones and Barkley are. As a result, it’s highly possible the other way around that you would have wasted Dabol for several years without nothing more than mediocrity. Then just like with Jones you'd hear "A coach is supposed to elevate his team and ff he can't win . . . "
It's highly possible Barkley gets hurt. It's highly possible Jones is bottom tier mediocre QB which means 3rd or 4th place in the Division. Because they didn’t make moves early - you don’t think in Year 3 three won’t be talk of having these guys fired if they aren’t projected to be a strong team in the Division?
Barkley is a big problem though due to injury and the position he plays. So if you want to talk 3-4 years down the road, where might the Giants offense be with a hurt Barkley? If you think we'd be okay but not a threat to be a title contender, then what's the big dela letting him go?
And as a result, sticking with Jones in mediocrity if he is that might be the worst possible thing for Dabol after 3-4 years.
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In comment 15923259 g56blue10 said:
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Barf 🤮
Sure. Barf. BUT we are only rolling with baker mayfield until we get the next Mahommes. How long could that possibly take?
True! Better to overpay an average QB and never have a shot a being a real SB contender. Always good to make decisions based on fear!
You just aren't bright enough to realize you are never getting Mahomes. You don't make decsions on stupidity. And your comments are nothing but stupidity.
Who is making that assertion?
The goal is to find a better QB than Jones. And that shouldn't be too hard with the right decision makers in place.
Are you really going to be upset if we move on from Jones? Really? Daniel Jones?
He's not Joe Montana. He's not John Elway. He's not Eli Manning. He's not even Joe Flacco.
Jones is one of the more dispensable QBs currently in the NFL.
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on from Jones, we will automatically be able to draft the next Josh Allen in this years draft.
Who is making that assertion?
The goal is to find a better QB than Jones. And that shouldn't be too hard with the right decision makers in place.
Are you really going to be upset if we move on from Jones? Really? Daniel Jones?
He's not Joe Montana. He's not John Elway. He's not Eli Manning. He's not even Joe Flacco.
Jones is one of the more dispensable QBs currently in the NFL.
Well bw, since the chances of the Giants getting a Hall of Fame QB anytime soon are rather low, there are 27 of them in the SB era, who do you want to get? If they move on from Jones the idea would be to improve the position, not just move on from a player you can't stand. Terps isn't around so lets not pontificate that Case Keenum or Mike Glennon would be an improvement.
You can't ask players to be fearless but build a team around settling for known average because searching for great is hard and scary.
I'll also add, draft a quarterback ONLY if you really like the upside, whatever round that is.
Year 2 with an influx of players and leftovers who understand what the staff wants will be critical to competing in 2023.
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In comment 15923047 5BowlsSoon said:
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You do realize Sy said Dak's second half was as good as any he's seen this year. So, I encourage you to direct similar comments to him as well...
You don't consider him part of the anti-Jones crowd...do you?
No, I don’t consider Sy part of the “we must move past Jones” crowd. I think it’s pretty obvious, he is using this whole year and will continue to do so (next 7 games) to evaluate Jones BEFORE rendering his opinion on what the Giants should do.
He is also pretty smart in realizing that if you move on from Jones, who takes his place? Will the next guy be an upgrade? We all know the draft is a gamble having seen time and time again top rated/drafted kids not living up to the hype.
That is also something very important to ponder…
Step one- should I move past Jones
Step two- how and who to replace him
I hope and trust Schoen and Daboll got this….I will accept their opinion over mine (in other words, if they move past Jones, so will I).
I think all rational posters do support letting the season play out. But it's also reasonable to judge each weekly performance by Jones (not suggesting you have an issue with that).
On a replacement idea for Jones, there are various ways to go on that. IMV, the best idea right now is to continue building a better all-around team and find a QB solution in the '23 draft. And I'm very content going through the inevitable growing pains in that process...
One guy I won’t be upset in seeing replace Jones is Herndon Hooker. I know he tore an ACL, and that concerns me, but this may allow for us to draft him late in round one (around 20) if not injured, he would probably be a top 10 pick.
We can draft him and let him slowly recover while playing Tyrod Taylor or Davis Webb (assuming we don’t sign Jones).
Isn’t Hooker as old as DJ?
It's an absurd thought.
For every Allen that makes it, there are 10 similar QB prospects that dont.
And that's assuming we can even pick in the top 10-15, where most of these prospects end up (Newsflash: we wont be next year).
Maybe we win the lottery and strike gold on a prospect and can develop him over a few years, but it's far more likely we dont.
What a backwards way of thinking. So, the Chiefs shoulda just settled for Alex Smith? Bills shoulda settled for Taylor.
Teams get rid of bad/average QBs all the time, and you're right, it doesn't always work out. However, what if it does? What if the Giants end up with a top 5 QB?
With this coaching staff, that already worked miracles with DJ to make him a top 20-25 QB, imagine what could happen if they groomed one from day one. Stop settling for OK...gotta but a ticket to win the lottery.
You can't ask players to be fearless but build a team around settling for known average because searching for great is hard and scary.
That's great Hammer, but assertations are not a plan. What is the plan? It's great to say we have to improve and it is very cool to say searching for great is hard and scary, but the goal would be to improve the position. I'm all for actually improving the position, if and when there is a reasonable alternative and just sating that search for greatness is hard and scary does nothing for me. The Giants have X amount of money and draft capital, it needs to be used wisely. If we had the 2nd pick in the draft and their is a guy that Schoen loves there than that's one thing, bringing in Andy Dalton because many blame Jones for every problem on the offense is another. BTW if they use all sorts of draft capital to move up for a QB, what is he going to have around him, because if it's this, he is going to have to be very, very special to overcome it.
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on from Jones, we will automatically be able to draft the next Josh Allen in this years draft.
It's an absurd thought.
For every Allen that makes it, there are 10 similar QB prospects that dont.
And that's assuming we can even pick in the top 10-15, where most of these prospects end up (Newsflash: we wont be next year).
Maybe we win the lottery and strike gold on a prospect and can develop him over a few years, but it's far more likely we dont.
What a backwards way of thinking. So, the Chiefs shoulda just settled for Alex Smith? Bills shoulda settled for Taylor.
Teams get rid of bad/average QBs all the time, and you're right, it doesn't always work out. However, what if it does? What if the Giants end up with a top 5 QB?
With this coaching staff, that already worked miracles with DJ to make him a top 20-25 QB, imagine what could happen if they groomed one from day one. Stop settling for OK...gotta but a ticket to win the lottery.
And you have to realize that winning the lottery is very very difficult to do. Sure buy a ticket, but that can't be the plan.
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I'm going to jump through hoops to justify sticking with jones" is no way to live.
You can't ask players to be fearless but build a team around settling for known average because searching for great is hard and scary.
That's great Hammer, but assertations are not a plan. What is the plan? It's great to say we have to improve and it is very cool to say searching for great is hard and scary, but the goal would be to improve the position. I'm all for actually improving the position, if and when there is a reasonable alternative and just sating that search for greatness is hard and scary does nothing for me. The Giants have X amount of money and draft capital, it needs to be used wisely. If we had the 2nd pick in the draft and their is a guy that Schoen loves there than that's one thing, bringing in Andy Dalton because many blame Jones for every problem on the offense is another. BTW if they use all sorts of draft capital to move up for a QB, what is he going to have around him, because if it's this, he is going to have to be very, very special to overcome it.
You've stated the goal pretty clearly. Improve the QB position, but also, improve the talent level of the roster. Both are needed.
What no one seems willing to accept is that the QB improvement may not happen immediately, and that is why they are clutching on to Jones even though he may very well not be good enough. He's good enough for people to receive happiness from regular season wins. He may not be good enough for this coaching staff and GM to fit their vision and plan.
Sticking with Jones at considerable cost because a better option isn't immediately clear is still not a plan. 30 million in franchise tag money for one year of Jones is 30 million in cap dollars not being spent on the 52 other roster spots or re-signing the players worth keeping.
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I'm going to jump through hoops to justify sticking with jones" is no way to live.
You can't ask players to be fearless but build a team around settling for known average because searching for great is hard and scary.
That's great Hammer, but assertations are not a plan. What is the plan? It's great to say we have to improve and it is very cool to say searching for great is hard and scary, but the goal would be to improve the position. I'm all for actually improving the position, if and when there is a reasonable alternative and just sating that search for greatness is hard and scary does nothing for me. The Giants have X amount of money and draft capital, it needs to be used wisely. If we had the 2nd pick in the draft and their is a guy that Schoen loves there than that's one thing, bringing in Andy Dalton because many blame Jones for every problem on the offense is another. BTW if they use all sorts of draft capital to move up for a QB, what is he going to have around him, because if it's this, he is going to have to be very, very special to overcome it.
That's why they call it a rebuild.
Enjoy the 7-4 record all you can but don't let it cloud your judgment. There are still some big pieces missing here and work to do to further develop the roster including at QB. All options to upgrade key positions for the future should be explored versus staying the course with a product that has had some short-term but flawed successes.
The goal is to create a team that can truly compete for a championships.