It does look like Barkely is a different runner these past two games. Is it possibly the physical toll is having on his mental approach to the game? He has not played this long and this physical since his rookie year, and it almost looks like he is hitting a rookie wall. Hopefully he can get past that with a 10-day rest because the team can’t afford to have him playing like this down the stretch.
One, as I had started a thread after the game, was the emergence of Thibs and Strahan-like qualities. If we can keep Dex, Williams and Thibs together and get strong rush from the other side with Ojulari or someone else, we will cause a lot of trouble for offenses. It will be the foundation of a great defense.
The other thing, which is echoed in the game review is Jones. I am actually a big Jones supporter and still think he can improve, but this game worried me. I think, despite the poor oline and rest of the offense we rolled out, he had a few opportunities to really lift up this team and carry them to an upset. I thought he missed out on a few runs as Sy pointed out. I didn’t see the confidence there.
I think Jones can be a winner with a strong oline and some actuall weapons at WR. One major reason that I want the playoffs is to see how Jones does in that setting.
One of the questions people will ask about Daniel Jones and his future with NYG will revolve around upside. Just how good can he actually be? Best case scenario, what is he? We just watched Dak Prescott throw two interceptions in the first half. He was hit just as much if not more than Jones was throughout the game. Nothing mattered. He comes out in the second half and played some of the best QB I have seen all year from around the league. The numbers did not pop off the page, but it was the complexity of his throws and how precise they were. I do not see that in Jones. Both right now and in the future.
And I too did see that hesitancy from Jones in not running more. I was shocked to see only 3 runs for 14 yards. The first game he killed them with his legs. I agree, Jones had a chance to make big plays ON HIS OWN and he didn’t do it. That was troubling even to me, a guy who wants him to succeed more than not. Having said allthis, I still put most of the blame on Saquon for the incomplete pass on 4th down, even though I agree, the pass could have been better. I’m surprised Sy put it all on DJ and none on SB.
As for Saquon….I love Saquon but he looked so slow and hesitant. I don’t believe his shoulder caused that either. But I have a feeling if Daboll spells Saquon for Brightwell, this might not go well…how would that look? Especially if Brightwell is getting just as many carries.
Lastly, Sy alluded to this but didn’t make a big point- the play calling in the 2nd half was also concerning….no sense of urgency down two TDs….no hurry up two minute offense and a lot of runs still. I was hoping Sy would have given us a bit more of his thoughts on this. That was also concerning.
Bottom line: Jones, Saquon, and Kafka all have to rise up especially next Sunday.
At 30, 40, 50 million....neither Dek nor Jones are worth it.
One of the questions people will ask about Daniel Jones and his future with NYG will revolve around upside. Just how good can he actually be? Best case scenario, what is he? We just watched Dak Prescott throw two interceptions in the first half. He was hit just as much if not more than Jones was throughout the game. Nothing mattered. He comes out in the second half and played some of the best QB I have seen all year from around the league. The numbers did not pop off the page, but it was the complexity of his throws and how precise they were. I do not see that in Jones. Both right now and in the future.
Although I would like to see each QB playing with the other team's receivers. Dallas had guys getting separation all day long. Not so with the Giant receivers.
The past two games. 35 carries against the Texans, a college seasons worth of games carrying the load, shoulder.. whatever it is the coaching staff needs to spell him earlier and often with the fresher guys who are hitting holes faster and harder.
Is this a downside of having a 1A alpha back? You feel the need to feed him even when he’s not at peak performance? Whereas in a more meritocratic RBBC you may be quicker with a hook? It doesn’t have to be - but usually plays out this way.
Quick question: I may have missed this, but I didn't see what happened to the Giants defense that allowed the Dallas run game to smash through it with ease for over 160 yards?
It looked like they had tremendous success running between their left guard (Connor McGovern?) and left tackle but not sure?
One of the questions people will ask about Daniel Jones and his future with NYG will revolve around upside. Just how good can he actually be? Best case scenario, what is he? We just watched Dak Prescott throw two interceptions in the first half. He was hit just as much if not more than Jones was throughout the game. Nothing mattered. He comes out in the second half and played some of the best QB I have seen all year from around the league. The numbers did not pop off the page, but it was the complexity of his throws and how precise they were. I do not see that in Jones. Both right now and in the future.
Although I would like to see each QB playing with the other team's receivers. Dallas had guys getting separation all day long. Not so with the Giant receivers.
Good point….I was going to mention something like this, but glad someone else did.
Sy does realize Dak has so many more toys to play with and he also had a great ground game to make the passing game work even better. Not to mention the Giants were playing with 4/5 backups in the secondary. I’m not surprised Dak looked good…..for one half at least.
come on Sy... Dak has way more weapons and an offensive line that if I remember the stat they showed, played 95% of the snaps this season. They have a better 1-2 punch at running back.
There were defensive alignments on the Giants that they showed on replay that the Center and LG were uncovered and the Cowboys ran it right there.
Also Dallas's Defense is #1 over all and #1 in sacks...
by the way, who is getting open on the Giants?
It's easy for all of us to say DJ is not good enough after that game, but come on.
Dallas's wide receivers and tight ends were catching everything... I mean everything. How many drops did they have?
Dak is putrid and benefits from superior talent around him.
Barkley is either dinged or making business decisions.
That 4th and 1 was catchable and it hit his hands. This is not the first time Barkley dropped a pass. He is not a very good receiver.
Look at the catch a couple of weeks ago that Christian McCarthy made for Garoppolo.. he almost took flight to catch that ball..
you want to be the highest paid RB in football... you make that catch. No excuses.
What hasn’t been discussed much is that intentional grounding play
I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone get an intentional grounding on a play that wouldn’t have counted. Did he think it was a free play? Regardless, a moment of poor football IQ
RE: What hasn’t been discussed much is that intentional grounding play
I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone get an intentional grounding on a play that wouldn’t have counted. Did he think it was a free play? Regardless, a moment of poor football IQ
Maybe thought it was a false start and play was dead, but ended up illegal formation?
Didn’t do my own review this week because I didn’t get to watch the game as well as I normally do (I hosted the family for Thanksgiving) but a couple of things stuck out to me and you hit on both:
1) Was Jones play. A lot has been made about the miss to Barkley on the 4th and 1 flat route. Its worth noting that prior to this year, both Shurmur and Garrett used variations of flat routes in the red zone and Jones was almost always late on the timing. This time we see an errand throw, but that can also be due to him being slow getting his feet in position. This is an old problem popping up again.
2) Was Barkley’s play. Since the Texans game when he got 35 carries, he just has seemed off. I’d question whether he can really handle that type of load. We have 2 other backs that are capable, clearly they need to take some stress off of Saquon.
on the wait and see wagon with Jones. This last game when he could have put this team on his back he didn't. The Giants might not have a choice but to keep him on a reasonable contract but No way should they give him a franchise guy one. They may take one in the draft they feel they can build off of. Not a high first round guy but one they can develop. Time will tell. But I think he's peaked .
I think it's important to note that it is feasible to evaluate a QBs traits in isolation from his surroundings, as you have done.
An evaluator can see a player's footwork and performance on a variety of throws. Jones has certainly improved in many facets of his game. Maybe most notable is his ability to nail crossers in the middle of the field. But these are among the easiest throws on the field, and we do not see him attempt many high difficulty throws that require great touch, timing, outside the hashes.
I agree Jones doesn't rate with Dak as a passer. It seems if he's not thrashing teams with the run, he's generally not productive enough.
but he's got CeeDee Lamb to just wing the ball to in single coverage. That's what having a #1 WR will do for you. It's a cozy place to go with the ball if you're in trouble.
Jones has had Golden Tate, Darius Slayton, Kenny Golladay as his #1 WRs here. And the #2's and 3's are even worse. And this has been his entire career here.
I'm not sure how you can state definitively that he can't do it. Unfortunately for him, he hasn't demonstrated that he definitely can, either. And he's not going to get a chance to before his contract is up. It remains a fascinating situation without any parallels I can think of.
Don't see any valid comparison right now - DP vs DJ
in the big moments. He doesn’t have special passing skills and that’s a killer in a passing league. We can all see it hopefully Schoen and Daboll do as well. He’s a legit bottom 3rd starter in the league. I do t want to pay a marginal starter 30+ million.
I wonder if I am the only one who just skips your "quick" game recap and goes straight to the player evaluations.
Most of us watched the game. And for those who missed it Eric does a very nice recap.
So what I am suggesting - go straight to the player evaluations. What point does the game recap serve?
In fact you could just start right out with the Studs and Duds section with the rest of the evaluations to follow.
I am not looking to criticize here but only trying to be constructive when I say - You are burying the lead.
I've definitely had the same thought over the years. If Eric would sign off on that, I would alter the approach.
I always go straight to the player evaluations as well. But I wouldn't move the "Studs and Duds" section. I would keep it where is is. I like to guess the Studs and Duds AFTER reading the player evaluations.
Over the last two years all I wanted was to see how he does if he had average pass blocking, a consistent running game, chemistry with roughly the same group of at least average NFL calibre WRs for 5-6 games in a row.
For God’s sake, that is all I wanted to see so we can finally understand what his true upside could be. Unbelievable! We almost got to see that scenario at the end of last year, and then he gets hurt. Eleven games each in both 2021 and 2022 with scrubs at WR and the greatest QB pressure in the NFL.
Dak looking good in the second half? Wow, imagine that!
Not understand that it is absolutely possible to evaluate a QB in isolation from the players around him? Those players certainly alter stats, but you can watch a QB on a bad team and see he is good, bad or indifferent. This idea that as long as he has crappy players around him he is nothing but a question mark is silly.
If you are evaluating Slayton, Hodgins, etc, is it also fair to say “well they don’t have much at QB so who knows how good they can be?” Of course not. No problem evaluating every other position in isolation.
Jones has good games and bad games. Thursday was another bad one. Do not understand why folks are so personally invested in defending every throw the guy makes. The 4th and 1 throw was poor. You don’t have to hate the Giants and despise Jones to acknowledge that.
“ But there isn’t a quick mind here, he doesn’t see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based. After a long time scouting him, he is a pass for me.”
I haven’t really seen this change over the years. He has tools, but he never has seemed to be able to shake this criticism. On the 4th and 1 play he seemed to hesitate and it led to a bad pass. It reminded me of the 2 point conversions against Tampa in 2020 that could have sent the game to overtime. He hesitated on the throw into the flat. Defender had time to close. (Not sure who remembers this play)…He seems to excel at the down the sideline single read long pass where this is one on one coverage. However passes over th middle where multiple defenders and receivers are crossing he is hesitant to pull the trigger. I think this goes beyond the talent at WR as it apparently plagued him in College too.
One of the questions people will ask about Daniel Jones and his future with NYG will revolve around upside. Just how good can he actually be? Best case scenario, what is he? We just watched Dak Prescott throw two interceptions in the first half. He was hit just as much if not more than Jones was throughout the game. Nothing mattered. He comes out in the second half and played some of the best QB I have seen all year from around the league. The numbers did not pop off the page, but it was the complexity of his throws and how precise they were. I do not see that in Jones. Both right now and in the future.
This such an important point (bold).
I don't care how much talent a QB has around him, he still has to deliver the ball and make quality decisions. Too many on this board incorrectly assume that if Jones is surrounded by more talent, he will automatically be better. That's faulty logic and lazy.
Nothing is easy in the NFL despite what the many members of the DJFC will have you believe.
RE: Do the folks making excuse after excuse for Jones
Not understand that it is absolutely possible to evaluate a QB in isolation from the players around him? Those players certainly alter stats, but you can watch a QB on a bad team and see he is good, bad or indifferent. This idea that as long as he has crappy players around him he is nothing but a question mark is silly.
If you are evaluating Slayton, Hodgins, etc, is it also fair to say “well they don’t have much at QB so who knows how good they can be?” Of course not. No problem evaluating every other position in isolation.
Jones has good games and bad games. Thursday was another bad one. Do not understand why folks are so personally invested in defending every throw the guy makes. The 4th and 1 throw was poor. You don’t have to hate the Giants and despise Jones to acknowledge that.
They aren't. It's you that made a decision on Jones form the get-go and blasted/talked down anyone that didn't agree with you.
but he's got CeeDee Lamb to just wing the ball to in single coverage. That's what having a #1 WR will do for you. It's a cozy place to go with the ball if you're in trouble.
Jones has had Golden Tate, Darius Slayton, Kenny Golladay as his #1 WRs here. And the #2's and 3's are even worse. And this has been his entire career here.
I'm not sure how you can state definitively that he can't do it. Unfortunately for him, he hasn't demonstrated that he definitely can, either. And he's not going to get a chance to before his contract is up. It remains a fascinating situation without any parallels I can think of.
Nobody is denying that Dak has better receivers. It is still feasible to account for a QBs traits in isolation. How does he set, what is the delivery like, what kinds of throws does he attempt, how quick is the release, how does he place the ball, what kind of touch does he have on deliveries, etc... All these and more have little to do with who he is throwing to. It is not true that you can't tell anything from a QB if he doesn't have great receivers.
And while Dak can and does just toss it up at times to his receivers, it is not all he does. He often exhibits touch and superior ball placement on tricky throws, that Jones rarely flashes.
I do the same
Appreciate the flexibility Sy and Eric
I expect you will be able to expand on your thoughts on position/individual play. Your player evaluations are what I (we) really admire and want to know.
RE: Don't see any valid comparison right now - DP vs DJ
Of course you can't see the same level of performance. It may not be there because it cannot possibly be there.
I did not like the Barkley throw, but I have seen RBs make that catch hundreds of times, this was not OBJ 1 hander.
+1 in regard to the 4th and 1. Posters are having willful amnesia when in fact the replays from behind that the game showed were that the ball went through his hands. Yes it was a tough catch.
Anyhow, SY had mentioned below on one of his old reports speaking of the fact "imagine if Jones had . . . "
But I have been on board with SY right form the beginning. SY appeared very hopeful during his wining in streak but lately - I had said similar yesterday. Though I've come out and said I lean toward not signing him which he hasn't. Btu certainly he is no longer positive. Just read SY's past comments when things were going well. It had us wondering "what if has better . . ." It just doesn't look like it matters that much.
"Having the rookie Wan’Dale Robinson back on the field did not look like a lot on paper, but when considering the lack of talent he has been working with at the receiver position, it brought Jones to a higher level. The quick maturation of the rookie tight end is bringing Jones to a higher level. Saquon Barkley staying on the field and playing the best we have seen him is bringing Jones to a higher level. All of that added up and his skill position talent is still bottom third in the league. What kind of level does Jones get to with another high-end receiver or two? It is all projection at this point, but we now have some more information on what happens here when this situation around him trends north."
I wonder if I am the only one who just skips your "quick" game recap and goes straight to the player evaluations.
Most of us watched the game. And for those who missed it Eric does a very nice recap.
So what I am suggesting - go straight to the player evaluations. What point does the game recap serve?
In fact you could just start right out with the Studs and Duds section with the rest of the evaluations to follow.
I am not looking to criticize here but only trying to be constructive when I say - You are burying the lead.
I've definitely had the same thought over the years. If Eric would sign off on that, I would alter the approach.
No! Don't you dare!
I value reading your account of the game, because you are seeing it from a professional evaluator's perspective, and even if that were not the case, I still value getting a different perspective.
Please do not axe your recap of the game.
But i like your take on the game recaps. There are often insights i read into the recaps that support the evaluations.
In this particular case, the 4th and 1 play. “Kafka calls a great play, SB is alone in the flat. Jones misfires and ball falls to the ground”. Had you written “Jones threw a perfect pass, SB just couldn’t handle the throw” … different meaning.
When read in comparison to the note around DJ’s passing in the game, against Dax’s passing in the 2nd half, the recap often helps contextualize your thinking.
I do take away a lot from your recaps. That said, whatever is decided really do appreciate what you bring to the site. Your contributions are invaluable to BBI. I look forward to all your posts.
Put a spotlight on the issues with both DJ & Saquon and giving them big contracts. Each of these plays provided both of them the opportunity to step up and make something happen in a crucial moment. I believe it was the play before the ill fated 4th and 1, Saquon was in space and had a chance to put his shoulder down and get the first, he did not. Later in the game, DJ rolled to his left on 3rd and long and had a chance to do the same. Instead he tried to hit Saquon with a low percentage pass that was incomplete. If Saquon had awareness, he would have broke long creating space for DJ to run and DJ would have at a minimum made it 4th and short. Instead the Giants punted. These are the little plays that go unnoticed but yet have a big impact on the game. Big time players make these plays. Schoen and Dabol have their work cut out for them making this decision regardless of how the remainder of the season goes.
And FWIW, I agree with ChicagoMarty. Sy, your player evaluations are so good, I skip straight to those and skip the game recap. Perhaps save yourself some work and forgo the recap.
RE: RE: Don't see any valid comparison right now - DP vs DJ
Of course you can't see the same level of performance. It may not be there because it cannot possibly be there.
I did not like the Barkley throw, but I have seen RBs make that catch hundreds of times, this was not OBJ 1 hander.
+1 in regard to the 4th and 1. Posters are having willful amnesia when in fact the replays from behind that the game showed were that the ball went through his hands. Yes it was a tough catch.
Jones just doesn't make enough plays. I'm not saying without a doubt dump him - but he doesn't make "enough."
RE: Do the folks making excuse after excuse for Jones
In comment 15922845 Mike from Ohio said:
[quote] Not understand that it is absolutely possible to evaluate a QB in isolation from the players around him?
No, they cannot and they will not. This insanity will continue on this site for months until Schoen makes a decision. DJ's limitations have been self-evident since he was at Duke, as prophesized by Sy himself in the pre-draft ratings. Nothing has changed. And nothing will change. What a colossal waste of time and energy.
First, I’ll admit I’m pro-DJ.
That said, not seeing a part of his game ‘now or in the future’.
A Y/N decision on his Giants future is due soon. At 7Ws the Giants are out of the top 10, and if they get to 9-10Ws and a playoffs, they are 18-20 +in the draft, with not many top QBs to draft but a lot of other holes, including possibly replacing injured recent drafted players.
My question, what does SY do about DJ, knowing a QB rebuild put the team another 2 years away from competing.
First, I’ll admit I’m pro-DJ.
That said, not seeing a part of his game ‘now or in the future’.
A Y/N decision on his Giants future is due soon. At 7Ws the Giants are out of the top 10, and if they get to 9-10Ws and a playoffs, they are 18-20 +in the draft, with not many top QBs to draft but a lot of other holes, including possibly replacing injured recent drafted players.
My question, what does SY do about DJ, knowing a QB rebuild put the team another 2 years away from competing.
If NYG moves on from DJ, I think Tyrod is next years QB until the replacement for DJ is ready to go.
over a number of seasons, whereas Schoen/Daboll have just had one single draft here, plus severe restrictions with the cap.
My take on the two quarterbacks:
Prescott: throws 60/40 good/bad balls.
Jones: throws 40/60 good/bad balls.
Prescott is good, but to my mind not elite. Jones is JAG and that is not enough at QB. We need to find a way to move on from him.
Dallas got Micah Parsons. We traded down to get Kadarius Toney and Evan Neal.
I don't know if we should have stayed pat and taken Parsons. Maybe the problem is that you want as near as a sure thing with a first round pick and Toney just wasn't that.
Always look forward to the recap. Would be interesting to see your thoughts IF and When the Giants are in the position to find a replacement for DJ based the available options at that time.
If he indeed he has worn down after 11 games that is a huge concern.
I agree with you Sy that Dallas is a true SB contender from the NFC due to their defense and the mediocrity this year in the NFC.
As always great job Sy.
The other thing, which is echoed in the game review is Jones. I am actually a big Jones supporter and still think he can improve, but this game worried me. I think, despite the poor oline and rest of the offense we rolled out, he had a few opportunities to really lift up this team and carry them to an upset. I thought he missed out on a few runs as Sy pointed out. I didn’t see the confidence there.
I think Jones can be a winner with a strong oline and some actuall weapons at WR. One major reason that I want the playoffs is to see how Jones does in that setting.
As for Saquon….I love Saquon but he looked so slow and hesitant. I don’t believe his shoulder caused that either. But I have a feeling if Daboll spells Saquon for Brightwell, this might not go well…how would that look? Especially if Brightwell is getting just as many carries.
Lastly, Sy alluded to this but didn’t make a big point- the play calling in the 2nd half was also concerning….no sense of urgency down two TDs….no hurry up two minute offense and a lot of runs still. I was hoping Sy would have given us a bit more of his thoughts on this. That was also concerning.
Bottom line: Jones, Saquon, and Kafka all have to rise up especially next Sunday.
If the Giants defense wasn't held together with tape and glue...and played the 2nd half like they did Green Bay....Cowboys would have list.
I wonder if I am the only one who just skips your "quick" game recap and goes straight to the player evaluations.
Most of us watched the game. And for those who missed it Eric does a very nice recap.
So what I am suggesting - go straight to the player evaluations. What point does the game recap serve?
In fact you could just start right out with the Studs and Duds section with the rest of the evaluations to follow.
I am not looking to criticize here but only trying to be constructive when I say - You are burying the lead.
Agree, if Slayton can catch not perfect passes, why should Barkley not be expected to do the same.
Quote:
One of the questions people will ask about Daniel Jones and his future with NYG will revolve around upside. Just how good can he actually be? Best case scenario, what is he? We just watched Dak Prescott throw two interceptions in the first half. He was hit just as much if not more than Jones was throughout the game. Nothing mattered. He comes out in the second half and played some of the best QB I have seen all year from around the league. The numbers did not pop off the page, but it was the complexity of his throws and how precise they were. I do not see that in Jones. Both right now and in the future.
Although I would like to see each QB playing with the other team's receivers. Dallas had guys getting separation all day long. Not so with the Giant receivers.
Is this a downside of having a 1A alpha back? You feel the need to feed him even when he’s not at peak performance? Whereas in a more meritocratic RBBC you may be quicker with a hook? It doesn’t have to be - but usually plays out this way.
of Dallas game.
Quick question: I may have missed this, but I didn't see what happened to the Giants defense that allowed the Dallas run game to smash through it with ease for over 160 yards?
It looked like they had tremendous success running between their left guard (Connor McGovern?) and left tackle but not sure?
Quote:
Quote:
One of the questions people will ask about Daniel Jones and his future with NYG will revolve around upside. Just how good can he actually be? Best case scenario, what is he? We just watched Dak Prescott throw two interceptions in the first half. He was hit just as much if not more than Jones was throughout the game. Nothing mattered. He comes out in the second half and played some of the best QB I have seen all year from around the league. The numbers did not pop off the page, but it was the complexity of his throws and how precise they were. I do not see that in Jones. Both right now and in the future.
Although I would like to see each QB playing with the other team's receivers. Dallas had guys getting separation all day long. Not so with the Giant receivers.
Good point….I was going to mention something like this, but glad someone else did.
Sy does realize Dak has so many more toys to play with and he also had a great ground game to make the passing game work even better. Not to mention the Giants were playing with 4/5 backups in the secondary. I’m not surprised Dak looked good…..for one half at least.
I wonder if I am the only one who just skips your "quick" game recap and goes straight to the player evaluations.
Most of us watched the game. And for those who missed it Eric does a very nice recap.
So what I am suggesting - go straight to the player evaluations. What point does the game recap serve?
In fact you could just start right out with the Studs and Duds section with the rest of the evaluations to follow.
I am not looking to criticize here but only trying to be constructive when I say - You are burying the lead.
I've definitely had the same thought over the years. If Eric would sign off on that, I would alter the approach.
There were defensive alignments on the Giants that they showed on replay that the Center and LG were uncovered and the Cowboys ran it right there.
Also Dallas's Defense is #1 over all and #1 in sacks...
by the way, who is getting open on the Giants?
It's easy for all of us to say DJ is not good enough after that game, but come on.
Dallas's wide receivers and tight ends were catching everything... I mean everything. How many drops did they have?
Dak is putrid and benefits from superior talent around him.
Barkley is either dinged or making business decisions.
That 4th and 1 was catchable and it hit his hands. This is not the first time Barkley dropped a pass. He is not a very good receiver.
Look at the catch a couple of weeks ago that Christian McCarthy made for Garoppolo.. he almost took flight to catch that ball..
you want to be the highest paid RB in football... you make that catch. No excuses.
Maybe thought it was a false start and play was dead, but ended up illegal formation?
1) Was Jones play. A lot has been made about the miss to Barkley on the 4th and 1 flat route. Its worth noting that prior to this year, both Shurmur and Garrett used variations of flat routes in the red zone and Jones was almost always late on the timing. This time we see an errand throw, but that can also be due to him being slow getting his feet in position. This is an old problem popping up again.
2) Was Barkley’s play. Since the Texans game when he got 35 carries, he just has seemed off. I’d question whether he can really handle that type of load. We have 2 other backs that are capable, clearly they need to take some stress off of Saquon.
An evaluator can see a player's footwork and performance on a variety of throws. Jones has certainly improved in many facets of his game. Maybe most notable is his ability to nail crossers in the middle of the field. But these are among the easiest throws on the field, and we do not see him attempt many high difficulty throws that require great touch, timing, outside the hashes.
I agree Jones doesn't rate with Dak as a passer. It seems if he's not thrashing teams with the run, he's generally not productive enough.
Jones has had Golden Tate, Darius Slayton, Kenny Golladay as his #1 WRs here. And the #2's and 3's are even worse. And this has been his entire career here.
I'm not sure how you can state definitively that he can't do it. Unfortunately for him, he hasn't demonstrated that he definitely can, either. And he's not going to get a chance to before his contract is up. It remains a fascinating situation without any parallels I can think of.
Who is Gallup equivalent?
Who is Schultz equivalent?
Who is entirety of o-line equivalent?
Of course you can't see the same level of performance. It may not be there because it cannot possibly be there.
I did not like the Barkley throw, but I have seen RBs make that catch hundreds of times, this was not OBJ 1 hander.
His heart just isnt in it like earlier in the season.
Quote:
Always enjoy your player evaluations
I wonder if I am the only one who just skips your "quick" game recap and goes straight to the player evaluations.
Most of us watched the game. And for those who missed it Eric does a very nice recap.
So what I am suggesting - go straight to the player evaluations. What point does the game recap serve?
In fact you could just start right out with the Studs and Duds section with the rest of the evaluations to follow.
I am not looking to criticize here but only trying to be constructive when I say - You are burying the lead.
I've definitely had the same thought over the years. If Eric would sign off on that, I would alter the approach.
Sure... makes sense to me.
Quote:
Always enjoy your player evaluations
I wonder if I am the only one who just skips your "quick" game recap and goes straight to the player evaluations.
Most of us watched the game. And for those who missed it Eric does a very nice recap.
So what I am suggesting - go straight to the player evaluations. What point does the game recap serve?
In fact you could just start right out with the Studs and Duds section with the rest of the evaluations to follow.
I am not looking to criticize here but only trying to be constructive when I say - You are burying the lead.
I've definitely had the same thought over the years. If Eric would sign off on that, I would alter the approach.
I always go straight to the player evaluations as well. But I wouldn't move the "Studs and Duds" section. I would keep it where is is. I like to guess the Studs and Duds AFTER reading the player evaluations.
For God’s sake, that is all I wanted to see so we can finally understand what his true upside could be. Unbelievable! We almost got to see that scenario at the end of last year, and then he gets hurt. Eleven games each in both 2021 and 2022 with scrubs at WR and the greatest QB pressure in the NFL.
Dak looking good in the second half? Wow, imagine that!
If you are evaluating Slayton, Hodgins, etc, is it also fair to say “well they don’t have much at QB so who knows how good they can be?” Of course not. No problem evaluating every other position in isolation.
Jones has good games and bad games. Thursday was another bad one. Do not understand why folks are so personally invested in defending every throw the guy makes. The 4th and 1 throw was poor. You don’t have to hate the Giants and despise Jones to acknowledge that.
I haven’t really seen this change over the years. He has tools, but he never has seemed to be able to shake this criticism. On the 4th and 1 play he seemed to hesitate and it led to a bad pass. It reminded me of the 2 point conversions against Tampa in 2020 that could have sent the game to overtime. He hesitated on the throw into the flat. Defender had time to close. (Not sure who remembers this play)…He seems to excel at the down the sideline single read long pass where this is one on one coverage. However passes over th middle where multiple defenders and receivers are crossing he is hesitant to pull the trigger. I think this goes beyond the talent at WR as it apparently plagued him in College too.
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One of the questions people will ask about Daniel Jones and his future with NYG will revolve around upside. Just how good can he actually be? Best case scenario, what is he? We just watched Dak Prescott throw two interceptions in the first half. He was hit just as much if not more than Jones was throughout the game. Nothing mattered. He comes out in the second half and played some of the best QB I have seen all year from around the league. The numbers did not pop off the page, but it was the complexity of his throws and how precise they were. I do not see that in Jones. Both right now and in the future.
This such an important point (bold).
I don't care how much talent a QB has around him, he still has to deliver the ball and make quality decisions. Too many on this board incorrectly assume that if Jones is surrounded by more talent, he will automatically be better. That's faulty logic and lazy.
Nothing is easy in the NFL despite what the many members of the DJFC will have you believe.
If you are evaluating Slayton, Hodgins, etc, is it also fair to say “well they don’t have much at QB so who knows how good they can be?” Of course not. No problem evaluating every other position in isolation.
Jones has good games and bad games. Thursday was another bad one. Do not understand why folks are so personally invested in defending every throw the guy makes. The 4th and 1 throw was poor. You don’t have to hate the Giants and despise Jones to acknowledge that.
They aren't. It's you that made a decision on Jones form the get-go and blasted/talked down anyone that didn't agree with you.
Jones has had Golden Tate, Darius Slayton, Kenny Golladay as his #1 WRs here. And the #2's and 3's are even worse. And this has been his entire career here.
I'm not sure how you can state definitively that he can't do it. Unfortunately for him, he hasn't demonstrated that he definitely can, either. And he's not going to get a chance to before his contract is up. It remains a fascinating situation without any parallels I can think of.
Nobody is denying that Dak has better receivers. It is still feasible to account for a QBs traits in isolation. How does he set, what is the delivery like, what kinds of throws does he attempt, how quick is the release, how does he place the ball, what kind of touch does he have on deliveries, etc... All these and more have little to do with who he is throwing to. It is not true that you can't tell anything from a QB if he doesn't have great receivers.
And while Dak can and does just toss it up at times to his receivers, it is not all he does. He often exhibits touch and superior ball placement on tricky throws, that Jones rarely flashes.
I can deal with him being hurt if that is the case...if he is not where is this hesitancy coming from, again, after it looked to be long gone?
Either way, Barkley's injury history and hesitancy history will make the decision to not resign him possibly easier than I thought.
Appreciate the flexibility Sy and Eric
I expect you will be able to expand on your thoughts on position/individual play. Your player evaluations are what I (we) really admire and want to know.
Who is Gallup equivalent?
Who is Schultz equivalent?
Who is entirety of o-line equivalent?
Of course you can't see the same level of performance. It may not be there because it cannot possibly be there.
I did not like the Barkley throw, but I have seen RBs make that catch hundreds of times, this was not OBJ 1 hander.
+1 in regard to the 4th and 1. Posters are having willful amnesia when in fact the replays from behind that the game showed were that the ball went through his hands. Yes it was a tough catch.
Anyhow, SY had mentioned below on one of his old reports speaking of the fact "imagine if Jones had . . . "
But I have been on board with SY right form the beginning. SY appeared very hopeful during his wining in streak but lately - I had said similar yesterday. Though I've come out and said I lean toward not signing him which he hasn't. Btu certainly he is no longer positive. Just read SY's past comments when things were going well. It had us wondering "what if has better . . ." It just doesn't look like it matters that much.
From SY:
https://www.bigblueinteractive.com/2022/10/18/game-review-new-york-giants-24-baltimore-ravens-20/
"Having the rookie Wan’Dale Robinson back on the field did not look like a lot on paper, but when considering the lack of talent he has been working with at the receiver position, it brought Jones to a higher level. The quick maturation of the rookie tight end is bringing Jones to a higher level. Saquon Barkley staying on the field and playing the best we have seen him is bringing Jones to a higher level. All of that added up and his skill position talent is still bottom third in the league. What kind of level does Jones get to with another high-end receiver or two? It is all projection at this point, but we now have some more information on what happens here when this situation around him trends north."
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Always enjoy your player evaluations
I wonder if I am the only one who just skips your "quick" game recap and goes straight to the player evaluations.
Most of us watched the game. And for those who missed it Eric does a very nice recap.
So what I am suggesting - go straight to the player evaluations. What point does the game recap serve?
In fact you could just start right out with the Studs and Duds section with the rest of the evaluations to follow.
I am not looking to criticize here but only trying to be constructive when I say - You are burying the lead.
I've definitely had the same thought over the years. If Eric would sign off on that, I would alter the approach.
No! Don't you dare!
I value reading your account of the game, because you are seeing it from a professional evaluator's perspective, and even if that were not the case, I still value getting a different perspective.
Please do not axe your recap of the game.
In this particular case, the 4th and 1 play. “Kafka calls a great play, SB is alone in the flat. Jones misfires and ball falls to the ground”. Had you written “Jones threw a perfect pass, SB just couldn’t handle the throw” … different meaning.
When read in comparison to the note around DJ’s passing in the game, against Dax’s passing in the 2nd half, the recap often helps contextualize your thinking.
I do take away a lot from your recaps. That said, whatever is decided really do appreciate what you bring to the site. Your contributions are invaluable to BBI. I look forward to all your posts.
And FWIW, I agree with ChicagoMarty. Sy, your player evaluations are so good, I skip straight to those and skip the game recap. Perhaps save yourself some work and forgo the recap.
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Who is CD Lamb equivalent?
Who is Gallup equivalent?
Who is Schultz equivalent?
Who is entirety of o-line equivalent?
Of course you can't see the same level of performance. It may not be there because it cannot possibly be there.
I did not like the Barkley throw, but I have seen RBs make that catch hundreds of times, this was not OBJ 1 hander.
+1 in regard to the 4th and 1. Posters are having willful amnesia when in fact the replays from behind that the game showed were that the ball went through his hands. Yes it was a tough catch.
Jones just doesn't make enough plays. I'm not saying without a doubt dump him - but he doesn't make "enough."
[quote] Not understand that it is absolutely possible to evaluate a QB in isolation from the players around him?
No, they cannot and they will not. This insanity will continue on this site for months until Schoen makes a decision. DJ's limitations have been self-evident since he was at Duke, as prophesized by Sy himself in the pre-draft ratings. Nothing has changed. And nothing will change. What a colossal waste of time and energy.
That said, not seeing a part of his game ‘now or in the future’.
A Y/N decision on his Giants future is due soon. At 7Ws the Giants are out of the top 10, and if they get to 9-10Ws and a playoffs, they are 18-20 +in the draft, with not many top QBs to draft but a lot of other holes, including possibly replacing injured recent drafted players.
My question, what does SY do about DJ, knowing a QB rebuild put the team another 2 years away from competing.
That said, not seeing a part of his game ‘now or in the future’.
A Y/N decision on his Giants future is due soon. At 7Ws the Giants are out of the top 10, and if they get to 9-10Ws and a playoffs, they are 18-20 +in the draft, with not many top QBs to draft but a lot of other holes, including possibly replacing injured recent drafted players.
My question, what does SY do about DJ, knowing a QB rebuild put the team another 2 years away from competing.
If NYG moves on from DJ, I think Tyrod is next years QB until the replacement for DJ is ready to go.
My take on the two quarterbacks:
Prescott: throws 60/40 good/bad balls.
Jones: throws 40/60 good/bad balls.
Prescott is good, but to my mind not elite. Jones is JAG and that is not enough at QB. We need to find a way to move on from him.
Dallas got Micah Parsons. We traded down to get Kadarius Toney and Evan Neal.
I don't know if we should have stayed pat and taken Parsons. Maybe the problem is that you want as near as a sure thing with a first round pick and Toney just wasn't that.