I have gone back and forth about posting this, and I might actually end up deleting it, but I had a moment of clarity after the game on Thursday. Warning: this is a bit of a rant.
I know no decision needs to be made today, but I really think Schoen and Daboll should stay the course and not re-sign Jones or Barkley.
Prior to the season, the thought process was that both of these players were not going to be re-signed and had to have big years to even be in consideration to return. So the question is...what has changed? In my opinion, nothing.
Both Jones and Barkley always leave you wanting more. Jones almost makes the throws. Barkley almost breaks the long ones or almost makes the play. And we are always left thinking what if. What if they could stay healthy? What if they had a better line in front of them? What if there were more weapons? What if they had better coaching/game planning? At some point, the excuses have to stop.
This is who they are. Their only consistent trait is that they are wildly inconsistent. They are injury prone. They have good performances followed by bad performances; good drives followed by bad drives.
Star players lift up players around them. I don't think either Jones or Barkley do that. It seems like they actually hold the offense back at times.
I think the team and this regime will be better off when they can scout, and sign/draft players that fit their scheme and vision. There is no need to devote salary cap space or roster spots to either of these players. Respectively, 4 and 5 years into their careers, these players are who they are.
Any results from this season should not make Schoen deviate from his plan. This is still a total rebuild. Having as much salary cap flexibility and roster maneuverability should be the goal.
QB availability and how much said QB(s) can improve upon Jones
The cost of keeping Jones. ut this one isn't as important as people think. If the Giants LIKE Jones, they will pay him but only what they have to pay him.
Speaking about this decision in simple black and white + cap is just ridiculous at this point.
It's going to come down to his value to NYG and how replaceable that is. And really nothing more or nothing less.
Barkley situation is less nuanced in my view. I think it's 75% chance he's back. Jones i'd put at 60% but a LOT hangs on these next 6 weeks. If he plays well, that% goes up to 90%.
doubtful, probably worse Aaron doesn't run
Jones will price the market and i'd have to think won't break it. He comes back for 25 million with an option in year 2--something like that. Giants keep a sharp eye out on every position, including QB.
Certainly not in draft reach if an alpha receiver is also in your plans.
You can't just conjure up a 600 or so yard rushing QB who doesn't make too many mistakes and can run an NFL offense. Warts and all, Jones would be better than many other options and it's going to be a tough sell to just let that player walk ESPECIALLY if the contract is relatively tame compared to other stating QBs, inflation and all. And here's the thing, keeping Jones doesn't preclude you from trying to upgrade the position.
Conversely, if Jones doesn't win games and generate offense down the stretch things obviously change. I think he needs to run the ball more but I would be saying the same thing about Lamar Jackson if he carried a stat line of 3 carries like Jones did last game.
FA starts about 6 weeks prior to the draft. I could see JS signing a bridge QB in this coming FA, cutting TT, and drafting a QB. The FA QB will start the season with the drafted QB hopefully ready to step in by game 7
There are plenty of QB options in the 2023 draft that are more physically gifted than Jones. Just because the mainstream thinks the top QBs are only Stroud, Young and Levis doesn't mean that's true. It's just an easy default position.
I am more than comfortable taking a chance with a rookie QB and simultaneously building better overall team. We get a cheap contract; and Schoen & Daboll get their QB, not the one they inherited. And if the rookie QB is a bust than you re-group and start over.
I would also seriously consider JimG if we can get him on another one-year deal. I think the rest of the NFL may view JimG as purely a system QB and worthy of only a one-year contract. In essence, a QB mercenary. Say we you want, but he's quietly putting together another quality year and making plays every week, with very few mistakes...
I’m not in a rush to either get rid of Jones or strongly commit to him long term. A 2-3 year deal with outs is hardly a long term commitment. They’ll still be in a position to draft his successor and keep him as a bridge for 2 years if they want.
bottom line, I trust this staff and if they want "their guy", whether that is a 2023 draft pick or Jimmy G (which is a really intriguing option) then I support it.
If they want (and can get) DJ back for a 2 year bridge deal while they build up the rest of the team, I am ok with that too. I think DJ is good (no better, no worse than good) and with another year in the system, and with better receiving options, I think we can be in the playoff mix with DJ.
but I recognize that is probably the ceiling with him... so if we want to work towards the brass ring (elite QB) then I won't argue with it.
Isn't likely reality that Jones will have a couple of decent games and a couple of very mediocre ones. And team will probably squeak out a few more wins which may or may not be enough to get into the playoffs. But with a harder schedule than earlier in the season things look very questionable.
I don't pin the Giants making the playoffs as the hurdle to extend/tag Jones. That would be short-sighted.
You can't just conjure up a 600 or so yard rushing QB who doesn't make too many mistakes and can run an NFL offense.
This is the threshold to pay a QB $32 million per year?
I for one would either set the bar higher or improve the team's conjuring process.
I’m not in a rush to either get rid of Jones or strongly commit to him long term. A 2-3 year deal with outs is hardly a long term commitment. They’ll still be in a position to draft his successor and keep him as a bridge for 2 years if they want.
If Jones isn't good enough to get a decent offer from any other team why should the Giants want to keep him?
The team may be surprisingly 7-4, but the above description is not how they got to that point.
Your noted view above would be wildly divergent as to how they play each week.
You either think he can be the guy or he's not. A bad second half against the Cowboys where we were completely undermanned once again on offense (and we only had 3 possessions) should not change this opinion, in either direction. He had a rough half. A few plays, and calls for that matter, go the other way and I'm guessing the conversation about him is a bit different after the game.
He's got 6 games to prove what he can do. He's proven a good amount this year already based on what he's working with.
Our offense is better this year than it has been in recent years (at least as respects rushing and lack of TO's)... that is likely a result of better coaching/system, improved O Line, a healthy Saquon and DJ generally playing better (not great, but better).
but overall our offense is still very meh... DJ plays a role in that but so does the complete lack of viable receiving threats & an injured and (at times) mediocre O Line.
I would expect the entire offense, incl DJ, to continue to get better as those other areas improve (plus another year in this system)... now, smarter minds than mine will decide if DJ should be part of that improvement or if his limitations are holding us back... but it seems silly to evaluate the entire unit based on one guy and analyze and re-analyze after every pass and every game.
But, that's semantics.
Just keep improving the team. Don't care how.
You either think he can be the guy or he's not. A bad second half against the Cowboys where we were completely undermanned once again on offense (and we only had 3 possessions) should not change this opinion, in either direction.
People can form their opinions how ever they choose. And the decision of what he’s worth actually does change week to week.
He's got 6 games to prove what he can do. He's proven a good amount this year already based on what he's working with.
You can do the “if a few plays go the other way and the conversation is different” with the games you use to confirm your opinion. End of the day the plays didn’t happen.
You either think he can be the guy or he's not. A bad second half against the Cowboys where we were completely undermanned once again on offense (and we only had 3 possessions) should not change this opinion, in either direction. He had a rough half. A few plays, and calls for that matter, go the other way and I'm guessing the conversation about him is a bit different after the game.
He's got 6 games to prove what he can do. He's proven a good amount this year already based on what he's working with.
To you and some others he seems to have proven quite a bit. To other, he has proven that he will always be up and down, with the ups being average NFL starter and the downs being booderline starter/backup.
While it is true that the talent on this offense is terrible, that does not mean that a struggling QB must be good. Jones is excellent in the run game. He has an average arm. His mental acuity is below average. I don't think any of those things will change with more talent around him since they have not changed in over 3 years in the league.
Despite this roster, it is pretty clear what Daniel Jones is and isn't.
@FieldYates
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38m
The 2023 free agent RB class is absolutely stacked, including:
- Josh Jacobs
- Saquon Barkley
- Miles Sanders
- Tony Pollard
- David Montgomery
- Kareem Hunt
- Jamaal Williams
- Damien Harris
- Jeff Wilson, Jr.
- Devin Singletary
- Raheem Mostert
- Rashaad Penny
You can argue that Barkley is the top of that class, but this shows that they'll be able to assign the value to his contract that they want and if he finds something better, there will be other good options available.
I will argue that Kareem Hunt is the best of that group but he will be more expensive than Barkley.
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if Jones goes on a tear for the remainder of the season, then rips it in the playoffs taking the Giants on a deep run...then year...the Jones decision could be greatly impacted by the remainder of the season I would say.
The team may be surprisingly 7-4, but the above description is not how they got to that point.
Your noted view above would be wildly divergent as to how they play each week.
I totally agree. But closing the door on the possibility that DJ turns into a Eli or Joe Flacco when the chips are down seems silly no matter how unlikely it is.
Barkley will most likely still have trade value and DJ on a short term/team friendly deal can still be that stepping stone to the eventual "franchise" guy - if and when it does ever happen.
I don't pin the Giants making the playoffs as the hurdle to extend/tag Jones. That would be short-sighted.
Totally agree.
IMO, I've seen enough already to make him the bridge.
Unless the Giants want to go all in on someone like the Ohio State QB and draft a boatload for that pick.
You either think he can be the guy or he's not. A bad second half against the Cowboys where we were completely undermanned once again on offense (and we only had 3 possessions) should not change this opinion, in either direction. He had a rough half. A few plays, and calls for that matter, go the other way and I'm guessing the conversation about him is a bit different after the game.
He's got 6 games to prove what he can do. He's proven a good amount this year already based on what he's working with.
I've been anti-DJ since his 2nd year. I thought his rookie year was something to build on. Build on that level of production without the turnovers and you have a franchise QB. Instead he cut down on turnovers by becoming an NFL backup (production-wise.)
I remember when it was a 9 game tryout, now it's 6? Guess those last 3 didn't help? DJ better get moving!
The reliance on Saquon to have 100 yard games everytime when there no offensive alternative is not really fair.
The reliance on Saquon to have 100 yard games everytime when there no offensive alternative is not really fair.
Or maybe Daboll and Kafka are smart enough to know Jones's limitations.
Barkley will most likely still have trade value and DJ on a short term/team friendly deal can still be that stepping stone to the eventual "franchise" guy - if and when it does ever happen.
Finding a RB or RB(s) to replace Barkley doesn't seem to be some difficult hurdle, even if they keep him on another year or so.
But why can't the stepping stone year for Jones be this year, and they evaluate and draft his replacement next Spring?
And short-term, team-friendly is unlikely. Short term would be the tag and it's not all that friendly.
I think the focus of the offseason is to bring in a whole new group of WRs means 1-6 and get rid of every WR currently on the team. They are for the most part practice squad quality and all seem to have bad hands. Fix the WRs, upgrade the interior OL and the O is ready to find a QB. Putting a rookie into the current situation is bad business. Spending too much resources on a QB right now is wasting the talent we have and setting the team back yet another year. Rarely does a rookie QB come in and dominate unless the team around them is great which is not the casehere.
As for Barkley, if you are getting rid of Jones you better get rid of Barkley too. The money tied up in RB will be crazy. Id like a more physical guy, He started the season that way but once again when he got banged up seems hesitant again. Probably best to let him go than pay him $10 Mil plus to keephim. Great talent but seems to get into his head too much.
Id look at a 2 year $15Mil per for Jones, Guarantee it if thats what it takes, it will be like the Franchise tag spread over 2 years. On Barkley Id offer $7 mil a year just to make it look like we want him but not really, let someone else overpay for his services.
Our offense is better this year than it has been in recent years (at least as respects rushing and lack of TO's)... that is likely a result of better coaching/system, improved O Line, a healthy Saquon and DJ generally playing better (not great, but better).
but overall our offense is still very meh... DJ plays a role in that but so does the complete lack of viable receiving threats & an injured and (at times) mediocre O Line.
I would expect the entire offense, incl DJ, to continue to get better as those other areas improve (plus another year in this system)... now, smarter minds than mine will decide if DJ should be part of that improvement or if his limitations are holding us back... but it seems silly to evaluate the entire unit based on one guy and analyze and re-analyze after every pass and every game.
With the ridiculous amount of injuries and all the practice squad players starting our offense sucks this year!
If I am not mistaken, Taylor is owed a decent amount of guaranteed money next year and would count as almost $5.5 million in dead cap if cut before 6/1.
Safe to say nobody on this site is going to part of the assessment/negotiation process so chill out. The season will play out whether posters want to give their views or not.
And what's so critical about the last 6 games anyway? If Jones plays very good for 3 games and a bum for the other 3, does that really change the calculus in your view? Or what if he looks great for 5 games and then awful for the deciding game and they miss the playoffs because of it...what then?
If I am not mistaken, Taylor is owed a decent amount of guaranteed money next year and would count as almost $5.5 million in dead cap if cut before 6/1.
I don’t agree. He’s a body that likely can’t play effective football. His value is being able to run the system in practice and in a pinch, a game. That isn’t a bridge, that’s a backup you don’t want playing a meaningful amount of time especially after a stronger than expected season.
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He will almost certainly be here next year. Yes, he was signed to be a capable backup to the injury-prone Jones, but more than that, he was brought here to be the bridge to the next QB. Could Jones be the bridge...potentially, but that would be an expensive bridge.
If I am not mistaken, Taylor is owed a decent amount of guaranteed money next year and would count as almost $5.5 million in dead cap if cut before 6/1.
I don’t agree. He’s a body that likely can’t play effective football. His value is being able to run the system in practice and in a pinch, a game. That isn’t a bridge, that’s a backup you don’t want playing a meaningful amount of time especially after a stronger than expected season.
I agree about TT. If the Lions cut Goff I'd give him a look on a couple year contract, punt TT, and draft a QB.
Jesus.
If I am not mistaken, Taylor is owed a decent amount of guaranteed money next year and would count as almost $5.5 million in dead cap if cut before 6/1.
2 things Joe Schoen did out the gate 1) decline DJ's option year 2) Bring in Tyrod on a 2 year deal that was mostly guaranteed I believe
I agree, Tyrod is for sure back and the writing is on the wall for DJ.
DJ may very well receive a big contract elsewhere. Like Mike Glennon did after maybe possibly being a franchise level player at Tampa. Best of luck to Jones.
Scout QBs carefully and draft them when the value is good until you have an elite player at that position.
That would be my plan.
DJ may very well receive a big contract elsewhere. Like Mike Glennon did after maybe possibly being a franchise level player at Tampa. Best of luck to Jones.
Scout QBs carefully and draft them when the value is good until you have an elite player at that position.
That would be my plan.
Why in heavens name would you want to sign Baker Mayfield? He does nothing to help this team. They already have Tyrod Taylor.
I do think some team will give Jones a decent deal (4 yrs / $100 mill). Maybe the Colts or even Carolina.
I think it’s much more likely that the opposite is true, and the group most likely to instantly turn on Daboll and Schoen if Jones is let go are the people who want him back.
Most others seem to recognize that this isn’t a 1-2 year rebuild, and growing pains are likely. Whereas a significant contingent of the Jones fan club want to blow $30 million on him next year and have spent countless hours making excuses for him.
I’ll be thrilled if Taylor is the QB next year, because to me it guarantees that the current regime understands and is committed to rebuilding smartly over 3-4 years, not deluding themselves into thinking they are one off-season away from being Super Bowl contenders.