I have gone back and forth about posting this, and I might actually end up deleting it, but I had a moment of clarity after the game on Thursday. Warning: this is a bit of a rant.
I know no decision needs to be made today, but I really think Schoen and Daboll should stay the course and not re-sign Jones or Barkley.
Prior to the season, the thought process was that both of these players were not going to be re-signed and had to have big years to even be in consideration to return. So the question is...what has changed? In my opinion, nothing.
Both Jones and Barkley always leave you wanting more. Jones almost makes the throws. Barkley almost breaks the long ones or almost makes the play. And we are always left thinking what if. What if they could stay healthy? What if they had a better line in front of them? What if there were more weapons? What if they had better coaching/game planning? At some point, the excuses have to stop.
This is who they are. Their only consistent trait is that they are wildly inconsistent. They are injury prone. They have good performances followed by bad performances; good drives followed by bad drives.
Star players lift up players around them. I don't think either Jones or Barkley do that. It seems like they actually hold the offense back at times.
I think the team and this regime will be better off when they can scout, and sign/draft players that fit their scheme and vision. There is no need to devote salary cap space or roster spots to either of these players. Respectively, 4 and 5 years into their careers, these players are who they are.
Any results from this season should not make Schoen deviate from his plan. This is still a total rebuild. Having as much salary cap flexibility and roster maneuverability should be the goal.
I really think the writing is on the wall with DJ...I'd be really surprised if he's offered anything but a low-ball 1 year deal. I don't think Daboll/Kafka trust him (VERY conservative 2 minute offensive playcalling and run heavy, dink and dunk offense) and it says a lot that Schoen didnt initiate negotiations during the bye week.
Re: Jones. I think some of you are looking at this too black and white when there’s a lot of grey area. What are our draft options as we approach the clock on draft night? What are Jones’s options via FA? I think it’s becoming clear that Jones is not a top shelf QB commodity. That said, I do think there would be interest for him on the open market. Some team is going to look at his ability and think there’s a chance to win with him. Jones is in the same category as guys like Tannehill, Fitzpatrick, Alex Smith, Mariota. Those are his comps.
What NYG has to guard against in my opinion is making the playoffs with Jones this year and then taking a big step back with Tyrod or a rookie next season. My best case scenario with Jones is if we can get him back in a Trubisky like contract AND we draft a QB we like. Jones gets next year with another year of Schoen roster building and from there you just kind of see what happens with no guarantees. Jones could still cement himself as the QB here, or we simply move on.
Note, I realize we won some games this year, but from an FO perspective, we were not operating that way. We made teardown moves and just happened to rack up some Ws along the way.
If 2023 is a rebuilding year why would we bring back Saquon and pay him anything? I've also said it elsewhere but if Saquon and Schoen "didn't get close" on the contract talks during the bye week then there is 0% chance Saquon plays on the Franchise Tag which is projected to be 12m for a RB. Him and his agent are looking for top dollar guarantees. It is likely his only significant FA contract.
Just seems like everything has to go right for both of them to perform well, and when anything is off script at all, the play falls apart. It is hard to go an entire game and play mistake free football to win week in and week out.
This really is what it boils down to. I really don’t get the affection some posters here have about Jones. This is his 4th year, he is what he is.
As for Barkley, I think these last two games have really hurt his leverage.
Its easy to say Nah, they suck, without some replacements named, that would be cheaper, because in the end its about money and whom your rolling with and how long you set your clock back.
Lets say we get the #15 pick, ... is there someone there we fall in love with? We aren't getting Stroud, Levis, or Young with #15. (jones in mind)
Is it Jacoby Brissett at 15 million a year? Is it Darnold? Whose gonna be better with certainty than Jones with a year in the system and perhaps a winning record . I
The ballsiest route is Signing Jones and drafting someone you like at #15. Saquon is easier for me to talk about. Any deal with him for me wouldn't be longer than 2 years guaranteed, and backs you can find into the 3rd round.
For me, this isn't worth reading unless their is a plan attached, and alternatives listed. I would feel better saying goodbye to Jones if their were some names discussed.
Mike White has 4 competent receivers. DJ has maybe 1. You can’t compare the 2 situations. While I’m not the biggest DJ supporter, if you can get him on a 2 year deal I think it could make sense. Barkley I would just franchise twice and then let him walk.
Who are they going to draft who fits “the scheme”?
I will say most of the top rated QB have good receivers, I don't think that is a coincidence. Our receivers stink. I wouldn't give Jones more than a two year prove it deal. If he is all about the money let him walk does he really want to be in yet another offensive scheme, or does he want to prove he can make it in NY.
The problem DG created was drafting a running back and QB when we had a terrible o line and no receivers. Ass backwards. You build your line and get your receivers in place then go get your QB and then your running back.
Our line is still not good and our receivers still stink. We are 2 years away from fixing those issues so why pay a running back big money now. You think Barkley is worn now think what he will be with two more years of wear and tear Jones won't be better until the line and receivers are fixed. How much better, who knows. Do you want to pay Jones big money for two years just to see what he might be. I wouldn't. He either takes a two year prove it deal or moves on.
DG set this franchise back years by drafting players out of sequence. Build the foundation then get your QB and running back. In the meantime don't spend big dollars on them.
Re: Jones. I think some of you are looking at this too black and white when there’s a lot of grey area. What are our draft options as we approach the clock on draft night? What are Jones’s options via FA? I think it’s becoming clear that Jones is not a top shelf QB commodity. That said, I do think there would be interest for him on the open market. Some team is going to look at his ability and think there’s a chance to win with him. Jones is in the same category as guys like Tannehill, Fitzpatrick, Alex Smith, Mariota. Those are his comps.
What NYG has to guard against in my opinion is making the playoffs with Jones this year and then taking a big step back with Tyrod or a rookie next season. My best case scenario with Jones is if we can get him back in a Trubisky like contract AND we draft a QB we like. Jones gets next year with another year of Schoen roster building and from there you just kind of see what happens with no guarantees. Jones could still cement himself as the QB here, or we simply move on.
Couldn't agree more and well thought out. I believe what you suggested is the way we should proceed.
I would recommend preparing for this reality. If Jones was the guy why has there been zero contract discussions from Joe Schoen? Are they really going to let DJ get to free agency and then overpay for him when he could have been locked up for a fraction of the cost with a 5th year option?
I don't have the answers about who the next guy is but Joe Schoen has a plan.
Of course, the Giants will need reliable targets for a new QB to throw too. They cannot play with the people they have in the WR room right now.
For Barkley, I think they try to sign him to a trade friendly contract... then trade him. Is it possible to package him with our 1st round pick in the upcoming draft to move up into the top 10?
Andrew Thomas and Xavier McKinney should be extended when the time comes.
Jones and Barkley do not fit into that category.
Jones almost made the throw; Barkley almost made the play. Neither did.
Jones almost made the throw; Barkley almost made the play. Neither did.
That is fine, but you need a replacement plan. You cannot just let them walk away without a plan.
Tell me, who is our QB next season and who is our RB? The answer of "we will figure it out" is not good enough. Schoen and the rest of them are responsible for having a plan to make sure this team does not regress.
Remember, John Mara's job every off season is to sell hope to the fans. Letting Jones and Barkley walk and going into the draft without a QB, without a starting RB, and a draft pick outside of the top 10 (putting the better QBs out of reach) is not a plan and makes the organization look like they dont know WTF they are doing.
This is why I dont think they are just going to let Jones walk.
Who are they going to draft who fits “the scheme”?
Barkley- a tad overrated, injury prone, will command too much $$$ when we have needs elsewhere.
Neither is DJ.
In an emotionless world, it makes sense to give Jones a low cost bridge contract. But emotions are a factor, and he may figure a change of scenery is a better option than staying here.
Barkley is NOT going to be cheap. Compared to QB salaries, or WR salaries, sure, he's cheap. Compared to punters, he's expensive. You have to compare him to RB, and the value of his production when healthy vs the risk of him getting old, or injured, vs the production of a younger RB vs the value of spending those Barkley dollars at a different position.
When Barkley is at the top of his game, his production is there. But we rode him hard one game, and he dropped off the face of the earth the next two. Age is a factor. Injuries are a factor. The dancing/hesitance is a factor. It's not like it'll be a longshot task to get decent production out of alternative options, so the risk and the extra dollars make it arguable whether he's worth it.
I would not break the bank for either. Barkley definitely is likely to want a big pay day. DJ likely will have suitors AND may think other venues are a better risk. he wouldn't be wrong there. Giants have an iffy OL, no WR, thin at TE, and the star RB may not be back. The coaches don't seem to trust him to open it up. Not hard to beat that combo. Jeez, after typing that, Giants may not have much say in retaining him. A very expensive tag is our only leverage, and at this point would be stupid to apply.
Barkley will be tagged, if they didn’t have plans to bring him back they wouldn’t have approached him about an extension. I don’t think the last couple of games change that.
Schoen has a plan in place, he will do what he believes makes the Giants a better team.
There are 6 huge games left to play, that will impact that plan.
Their immediate goal is to beat Washington.
It is my opinion that they go in another direction with the QB. But I will dispute what you are saying about the previous 3 years on film.
Yes, they could see, somewhat, what they had coming into this year based on the previous seasons and that is why they did not go for the 5th year option. But clearly they wanted to give Daboll and staff 1st hand knowledge on Jones and see if they would be able to develop him into what they needed. If he wasn't dumped offseason, then they saw something that allowed them to try and work with Jones. Might he have been the better option vs trading him or going in a different direction - of course. But seeing how effed up life under Judge and Garrett was, I am sure they wanted to see exactly what they had. So IMHO, aside from overview, the previous three years was merely a snapshot.
And if the previous three years didn’t matter and they were going through an evaluation from scratch, they would have picked up the option. There’s a next to zero chance Schoen was going to make a franchise altering decision based off a one year sample set.
Andrew Thomas and Xavier McKinney should be extended when the time comes.
Jones and Barkley do not fit into that category.
Joe Schoen is much more clued in than Dave ever was about where value for money lies. He would never have taken a RB with the #2 pick in the draft. I don't see either Jones or Barkley as worth the money.
Schoen's biggest challenge is finding a QB. It's the key position. With regards to everything else, I have 100% confidence in him. I don't bother second-guessing.
But the quarterback? Might need a bit of luck solving that problem.
I don't think Barkley is best used as a workhorse back, and how much do you pay a running back who may consider themselves a workhorse but you don't?
Barkley is best used I think with another back that can take care of the dirty work while using Barkley as more of a specialty player.
btw, I think Barkley can carry the load of a workhorse back, but I think it is a bit of a waste of him as a player.
W's or L's shouldn't form our opinion of DJ. What he's asked to do, and how he performs should be the ultimate factor. The coaches will evaluate in this mode. Too many fans will evaluate off W's/L's. Is DJ a great QB because he hands the ball off to Barkley 35 times and we win? Is he a lousy QB because Barkley gets stuffed and we lose?
For the most part, DJ has been asked to be a game manager, and he's mostly done it well. When they asked him to up his game and do more, he hasn't responded, but the sample size is small there.
I don't think it is unreasonable to have an opinion right now. Dollars to donuts, I'll bet coaches/management do. Sans a major change in performance, those opinions aren't going to change. Should he step up his game, opinions will change, but his performance to date still weighs into the equation. The final grade counts all the tests, and he's over halfway with mostly average grades (IMO). He has to start acing some games to raise himself out of the muddle.
But I agree that it will hamper the Giants' development to give them both big time deals.
I love the guy, but it would not be a smart business decision to give Barkley that kind of money imo.
The 4th down play says it all about both of them. They could not execute a simple play in a crucial spot. That is how you lose a game.
Goodbye
you don't pay these guys. you get what you can for them and get them off the team.
the giants need to go with a hydra running back attack, ala jacobs, bradshaw, ward.
barkley has shown this season if nothing else, that he is not a bell cow back. he came up small with the game essentially on the line in the dallas game, and he had his head up his ass multiple games with regard to situational football and getting out of bounds vs going down. he single-handedly almost lost them the jacksonville game.
jones has shown that he is who he is. a never-was who hasn't been able to elevate the team around him, and who can barely throw for 200 yards and 0.7 TDs a game.
i don't see how you commit to building around either of these guys, but i'm just your average fan, what do i know?
Its easy to say Nah, they suck, without some replacements named, that would be cheaper, because in the end its about money and whom your rolling with and how long you set your clock back.
Lets say we get the #15 pick, ... is there someone there we fall in love with? We aren't getting Stroud, Levis, or Young with #15. (jones in mind)
Is it Jacoby Brissett at 15 million a year? Is it Darnold? Whose gonna be better with certainty than Jones with a year in the system and perhaps a winning record . I
The ballsiest route is Signing Jones and drafting someone you like at #15. Saquon is easier for me to talk about. Any deal with him for me wouldn't be longer than 2 years guaranteed, and backs you can find into the 3rd round.
For me, this isn't worth reading unless their is a plan attached, and alternatives listed. I would feel better saying goodbye to Jones if their were some names discussed.
Clearly, Tyrod Taylor is the placeholder. He was likely signed for that exact reason.
Quote:
....is a microcosm of both Jones and Barkley's tenure with the franchise.
Jones almost made the throw; Barkley almost made the play. Neither did.
That is fine, but you need a replacement plan. You cannot just let them walk away without a plan.
Tell me, who is our QB next season and who is our RB? The answer of "we will figure it out" is not good enough. Schoen and the rest of them are responsible for having a plan to make sure this team does not regress.
Remember, John Mara's job every off season is to sell hope to the fans. Letting Jones and Barkley walk and going into the draft without a QB, without a starting RB, and a draft pick outside of the top 10 (putting the better QBs out of reach) is not a plan and makes the organization look like they dont know WTF they are doing.
This is why I dont think they are just going to let Jones walk.
Tyrod Taylor is the placeholder. That is why he was signed. The draft is where both Schoen and Daboll will look to find their next QB, if it is through a trade-up or finding someone in the early rounds. It does seem like this is a relatively deep draft at QB, especially compared to last year.
Tyrod Taylor is the placeholder. That is why he was signed.
He was signed to be the backup in case of emergency... not the starter. This plan sets us back and Schoen and Daboll will not do that.
So, what is the plan for a real starter who is better than Jones if we let him walk? Saying "they will find someone" is not a plan.