Not sure what else to say here except that I am not a fan of wasting high picks on it.....and the endless speculation about who is a worthy QB in this or any draft has proven ineffective at best.
DJ has not shown that he is a top tier guy,but the ways things look with SB,I would lean towards franchising DJ,letting SB test the FA market,and drafting a QB in the 3rd or 4th round.
What say ye?
He's had shit at WR with all the injuries plus no tight end since Bellinger went out. Also how many injuries on the OL
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if you want. He frustrates me and definitely has his share of warts. But I'd like to see what the guy can do with some real legit NFL WR's on the field (for the right price that is). That said if you think your guy is there in the draft. You go get him.
He's had shit at WR with all the injuries plus no tight end since Bellinger went out. Also how many injuries on the OL
It never ceases to amaze me how many fans think that the presumed evaluation of any player should be that he's good unless you can prove otherwise. That's all this is saying, right?
You're correct that the shit at WR and TE for much of the season does make it almost impossible to say with absolute certainty that DJ is the problem (or A problem) for the Giants.
Now take the logical next step: it also makes it nearly impossible to say with any certainty that DJ is the solution (or A solution) for the Giants going forward.
What IS a certainty is that DJ is a free agent. How much are you willing to pay a player just based on the level of doubt you have about the value of his teammates?
That's what you're doing, along with everyone else who makes this same tired excuse. We can't prove with absolute certainty that the blah offensive output, for years, under multiple coaches, is DJ's fault, because there are other mitigating factors.
So we should pay him franchise QB money solely because we can't prove that he might not deserve it if everything else around him is solved?
How about you prove that he WILL deserve it, using something a little more compelling than your affection for the kid or Mr. Mara's mealy-mouthed excuses?
You think you know what is going to happen?
That's cute.
If the season ended today and we had our current draft slot as determined by our record as of today and we get no more data, I try to sign Jones for 3 years at 25 million per because we are not getting one of the top prospects and Jones has shown growth with this staff.
That said, this last games mean everything to me and it will tell me everything I need to know by the end of the season about Jones.
You think you know what is going to happen?
That's cute.
If the season ended today and we had our current draft slot as determined by our record as of today and we get no more data, I try to sign Jones for 3 years at 25 million per because we are not getting one of the top prospects and Jones has shown growth with this staff.
That said, this last games mean everything to me and it will tell me everything I need to know by the end of the season about Jones.
What incentive would either side have to agree to the offer you suggest?
The money and years are both low from DJ's perspective, when another first-round QB from his own draft class just signed for $46M per year, for five years. You think DJ's taking 45% lower AAV and 40% fewer years? What would it even say about the Giants' evaluation of DJ if they offer him 3y/$75M a year after his fellow 2019 draftee got 5y/$230M?
And from the Giants' perspective, why would they commit three years to a QB if they're not willing to pay him franchise QB money? If DJ doesn't get at least $30M AAV from the Giants, I can't see why he'd sign for anything more than two years anyway, but I also can't see why the Giants would want to lock themselves into a third year with a QB that they don't love enough to pay full price for.
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In comment 15925328 46and2Blue said:
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if you want. He frustrates me and definitely has his share of warts. But I'd like to see what the guy can do with some real legit NFL WR's on the field (for the right price that is). That said if you think your guy is there in the draft. You go get him.
He's had shit at WR with all the injuries plus no tight end since Bellinger went out. Also how many injuries on the OL
It never ceases to amaze me how many fans think that the presumed evaluation of any player should be that he's good unless you can prove otherwise. That's all this is saying, right?
You're correct that the shit at WR and TE for much of the season does make it almost impossible to say with absolute certainty that DJ is the problem (or A problem) for the Giants.
Now take the logical next step: it also makes it nearly impossible to say with any certainty that DJ is the solution (or A solution) for the Giants going forward.
What IS a certainty is that DJ is a free agent. How much are you willing to pay a player just based on the level of doubt you have about the value of his teammates?
That's what you're doing, along with everyone else who makes this same tired excuse. We can't prove with absolute certainty that the blah offensive output, for years, under multiple coaches, is DJ's fault, because there are other mitigating factors.
So we should pay him franchise QB money solely because we can't prove that he might not deserve it if everything else around him is solved?
How about you prove that he WILL deserve it, using something a little more compelling than your affection for the kid or Mr. Mara's mealy-mouthed excuses?
DJ has not earned the franchise $ you are indeed correct,my gut is that both him and Saquon have had enough of the NY media to want to give us any "home town discounts"so that leaves us with Market Price....i do not think we will/nor should pay DJ market price.
My sense is we will draft someone in the later rounds of the draft....and either roll the dice with Tyrod or maybe try the FA market for a short term replacement for DJ.
I wouldn't waste a mid round pick on a QB. Name a great 4th rd QB in the last 20 yrs.
Where as many # 1 picks bomb, by far the most successful hit rate is rd 1, with some decent rd 2 success (Farve right?).
Plus in today's game with cost control I want to use RD 1 picks on the highest paid positions on my roster where I don't have a n above average player. To me that's QB,WR,LT,Edge,CB.
Literally I think RD 1 should always pick one of those 5 positions in todays game. Best player of positional value where team is weak. Right now, I think that means WR or CB in RD 1 in 2023, unless Jones walks.
Kirk Cousins.
Wasn't Russ Wilson in like 3rd round. Dak 3rd round I believe.
You guys have your facts wrong. Like it is so easy and obvious that you are drafting one in the first place. "Yep SB winning QB right here... gift wrapped from the universtity right to the NY Giants. Drafting a SB winning QB in the 1st round is a small probability so let's just stick with Jones. WTF.
There are a lot of great QBs that didn't play in the Super bowl that are so clearly an upgrade over Jones and that given different circumstances could have possibly won ...Andrew Luck, Phil Rivers, shit even Mat Ryan
A lot ok f posters are debating from the perspective Jones is on the team next year. Daniel Jones is not on the team next year.
The choice isn't Jones or a different quarterback. The choice is Jones at twice the cost or more or a different quarterback.
You think you know what is going to happen?
That's cute.
If the season ended today and we had our current draft slot as determined by our record as of today and we get no more data, I try to sign Jones for 3 years at 25 million per because we are not getting one of the top prospects and Jones has shown growth with this staff.
That said, this last games mean everything to me and it will tell me everything I need to know by the end of the season about Jones.
Keys just shut BBI down until the season is over, since obviously no discussion is possible without the context of all 17 games
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In comment 15925142 BillKo said:
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In comment 15925127 pjcas18 said:
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one, absolutely.
but when you look at SB winning QB's the past 23 years (since 2000) you aren't getting a win outside the 1st with any reliability.
You have the following SB wins:
1st round: 11 (Stafford, Mahomes, Rodgers, Roethlisberger (2), E Manning (2), P Manning (2), Flacco, Dilfer
2nd round: 1 (Brees)
3rd round: 2 (Wilson, Foles)
4th round:
5th round:
6th round: 7 (Brady)
7th round:
UDFA/Later than 7th round: 2 (Brad Johnson and Kurt Warner)
So, fool's gold or not, SB wins aren't coming from somewhere else unless you want to bank your franchise future on drafting a QB in the 6th round.
Good chart.
I'd remove Foles because he didn't really QB a SB winner from "start to finish".
And furthermore, our two greatest QBs - Simms and Manning - are 1st rounders.
So yes if the talent appears to be there you jump in and take the player in the 1st round.
I will say that the way the league is transforming to more running QBs, I think you may see more 2nd and 3rd round picks maybe start to fill in PJ's chart.
Interesting how many of those weren’t with the team that drafted them.
Not really significant. Of the 14 named QBs, Dilfer, Stafford, Brees and Johnson didn’t win their Superbowls with their original team. Foles won with the Eagles in his second stint there. So, in more than 20 Superbowls, 4 won for another team. Do we need to figure in P. Manning and Brady?
Yes we do! Stat's can be manipulted per ones agenda. You say of 20 superbowls 4 won for another team. Yet, the discussion is about 1st rounders. So of (8) 1st round QB's (4) or 50% of them won a superbowl with a team that didn't draft them! Oh, there's a red hot take! Stats lie, just like that one I gave.
The real truth is that there is no single blueprint for finding a QB. You have to seize the opportunity when it comes, and be able to first have the people in place to recognize that opportunity. A little luck helps also.
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Not sure what else to say here except that I am not a fan of wasting high picks on it.....and the endless speculation about who is a worthy QB in this or any draft has proven ineffective at best.
So obviously what we should do is give more money to a former #6 overall pick who has never and will never live up to that draft position.
That’s not a good enough argument. That’s more a statement than anything else and one that doesn’t prove anything.
Convince me that there’s a better qb that we definitely pick next April. Can you guarantee that and can you guarantee that Daboll Schoen feel the same way?
As Gatorade helpfully pointed out, that's not the conversation. Paying Daniel Jones $30 million in 2023 (on the franchise tag) would be a mistake. I have no idea what Joe Schoen and/or Brian Daboll are thinking, but that's a move you make if you think you're close to a roster that can compete for championships, with a QB who has demonstrated the ability to get you there.
In my estimation, neither of those things are true. The Giants are a franchise in flux at the moment, and despite the W/L record to start the season, are still in need of a major talent upgrade and improved depth throughout the roster. Paying Daniel Jones on the FT would be a hindrance, and given his resume so far, the return on that investment wouldn't come close to justifying the cost.
The simplest solution would be to let Jones go, use the available cap room to make a few talent/depth upgrades at various other spots over multiple years, let Taylor be the QB, and work on finding a long term solution at the QB position.
If you believe Daniel Jones to be that solution, you're entitled to that opinion. I don't agree, and blowing $30 million for another year of "evaluation" is a waste of time. We know what Daniel Jones is. We've seen it in his college performance. We've seen it for 3 1/2 years in the NFL.
Daniel Jones is who he is as a QB. A low ceiling, lower-middle NFL QB. He'll probably have a 15 year career bouncing around because he works hard and has decent enough physical tools for that. That doesn't mean it needs to be here, when the goal should be winning the Super Bowl.
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In comment 15925148 rasbutant said:
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In comment 15925142 BillKo said:
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In comment 15925127 pjcas18 said:
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one, absolutely.
but when you look at SB winning QB's the past 23 years (since 2000) you aren't getting a win outside the 1st with any reliability.
You have the following SB wins:
1st round: 11 (Stafford, Mahomes, Rodgers, Roethlisberger (2), E Manning (2), P Manning (2), Flacco, Dilfer
2nd round: 1 (Brees)
3rd round: 2 (Wilson, Foles)
4th round:
5th round:
6th round: 7 (Brady)
7th round:
UDFA/Later than 7th round: 2 (Brad Johnson and Kurt Warner)
So, fool's gold or not, SB wins aren't coming from somewhere else unless you want to bank your franchise future on drafting a QB in the 6th round.
Good chart.
I'd remove Foles because he didn't really QB a SB winner from "start to finish".
And furthermore, our two greatest QBs - Simms and Manning - are 1st rounders.
So yes if the talent appears to be there you jump in and take the player in the 1st round.
I will say that the way the league is transforming to more running QBs, I think you may see more 2nd and 3rd round picks maybe start to fill in PJ's chart.
Interesting how many of those weren’t with the team that drafted them.
Not really significant. Of the 14 named QBs, Dilfer, Stafford, Brees and Johnson didn’t win their Superbowls with their original team. Foles won with the Eagles in his second stint there. So, in more than 20 Superbowls, 4 won for another team. Do we need to figure in P. Manning and Brady?
Yes we do! Stat's can be manipulted per ones agenda. You say of 20 superbowls 4 won for another team. Yet, the discussion is about 1st rounders. So of (8) 1st round QB's (4) or 50% of them won a superbowl with a team that didn't draft them! Oh, there's a red hot take! Stats lie, just like that one I gave.
The real truth is that there is no single blueprint for finding a QB. You have to seize the opportunity when it comes, and be able to first have the people in place to recognize that opportunity. A little luck helps also.
Sorry, just illustrating how stupid a discussion based on stats of superbowl winning QB's is. Not directed at you personally.
You think you know what is going to happen?
That's cute.
If the season ended today and we had our current draft slot as determined by our record as of today and we get no more data, I try to sign Jones for 3 years at 25 million per because we are not getting one of the top prospects and Jones has shown growth with this staff.
That said, this last games mean everything to me and it will tell me everything I need to know by the end of the season about Jones.
Many of us have watched the other 48 games Daniel Jones has started for the Giants so we are not sitting on the same pins and needles you are for the big reveal of who he is over the next 6 games.
Is it still ok if we discuss this, or will you just post something when a discussion of the QB is allowed?
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one, absolutely.
but when you look at SB winning QB's the past 23 years (since 2000) you aren't getting a win outside the 1st with any reliability.
You have the following SB wins:
1st round: 11 (Stafford, Mahomes, Rodgers, Roethlisberger (2), E Manning (2), P Manning (2), Flacco, Dilfer
2nd round: 1 (Brees)
3rd round: 2 (Wilson, Foles)
4th round:
5th round:
6th round: 7 (Brady)
7th round:
UDFA/Later than 7th round: 2 (Brad Johnson and Kurt Warner)
So, fool's gold or not, SB wins aren't coming from somewhere else unless you want to bank your franchise future on drafting a QB in the 6th round.
Good chart.
I'd remove Foles because he didn't really QB a SB winner from "start to finish".
And furthermore, our two greatest QBs - Simms and Manning - are 1st rounders.
So yes if the talent appears to be there you jump in and take the player in the 1st round.
I will say that the way the league is transforming to more running QBs, I think you may see more 2nd and 3rd round picks maybe start to fill in PJ's chart.
At least Foles made some plays and was a factor in winning some games. You can't say the same for Dilfer, who only played 8 games for Baltimore in 2000 and who did nothing to win games.
Then.. nothing. Truly bizarre
It’s such a lazy argument. Teams trade up all the time also.
What you need is the right GM/HC to find and develop a franchise QB. That is the key here.
I accentuate the develop part because that is a huge piece to getting this right.
If Jones is out as the QB we will find out very quickly if Schoen and Daboll are the right people for their jobs. We have some early intel on Daboll because he seems to have gotten the most out of Jones thus far. If you think Jones is a JAG, that is a very promising sign for Daboll
Hell, look @ '83 & '04...one could argue the two best QBs in those drafts-Marino & Roethlisberger-were drafted outside the top 5. I'd say Elway & Eli were, but you get what I'm saying.
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I do think the 'You need a top 5 or so pick to get a franchise QB' narrative/thinking is a bit overblown. Look at Mahomes, Allen, LJax, etc...all drafted outside of the top 5. On the flip side, look at Zach Wilson, Mitch, etc.
What you need is the right GM/HC to find and develop a franchise QB. That is the key here.
I accentuate the develop part because that is a huge piece to getting this right.
If Jones is out as the QB we will find out very quickly if Schoen and Daboll are the right people for their jobs. We have some early intel on Daboll because he seems to have gotten the most out of Jones thus far. If you think Jones is a JAG, that is a very promising sign for Daboll
DC hit the nail on the head,development is what is needed.which kind of goes to my point in the OP.
Rolling the dice on a 1st rounder,when we have so many holes to fill,just doesn't make sense.Take one later on in the draft and develop him slowly.This way we can deal with WR,ILB,CB2,IOL in the early rounds.
To be honest
I am not sure what I think about DJ...
What I am saying is given the current state of our football team,I prefer to focus on the other gaping holes.
WR ILB IOL CB2 before drafting a QB.
Recent history has shown too many teams have gotten excited about their "next franchise QB"
What did I say that made you think I want to commit a massive amount to DJ?
As for QB, I’m fine with whoever Schoen & Daboll like within their system.
As for QB, I’m fine with whoever Schoen & Daboll like within their system.
I wouldn't be crushed at that price..simply because its only a 1 yr commitment...and frankly its the going rate for a QB now.
There is something to be said for having stability at the QB while we build out the team.
If DJ has a great year then they can sign him...if not then at least the team has fewer holes than now.
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I'd suggest take a QB in rd 1 or 2 or 6 or 7.
I wouldn't waste a mid round pick on a QB. Name a great 4th rd QB in the last 20 yrs.
Where as many # 1 picks bomb, by far the most successful hit rate is rd 1, with some decent rd 2 success (Farve right?).
Plus in today's game with cost control I want to use RD 1 picks on the highest paid positions on my roster where I don't have a n above average player. To me that's QB,WR,LT,Edge,CB.
Literally I think RD 1 should always pick one of those 5 positions in todays game. Best player of positional value where team is weak. Right now, I think that means WR or CB in RD 1 in 2023, unless Jones walks.
Kirk Cousins.
Wasn't Russ Wilson in like 3rd round. Dak 3rd round I believe.
You guys have your facts wrong. Like it is so easy and obvious that you are drafting one in the first place. "Yep SB winning QB right here... gift wrapped from the universtity right to the NY Giants. Drafting a SB winning QB in the 1st round is a small probability so let's just stick with Jones. WTF.
There are a lot of great QBs that didn't play in the Super bowl that are so clearly an upgrade over Jones and that given different circumstances could have possibly won ...Andrew Luck, Phil Rivers, shit even Mat Ryan
The goal is to win super bowls, not be very good. It doesn't matter if Philip Rivers has better stats than Eli, Eli has two rings and that's all that matters.
The bottom line is the odds of drafting a QB to help a team win a super bowl are much higher in the first round than any other round. Not saying that it can't be done in later rounds, but the odds are much lower.
The bottom line is the odds of drafting a QB to help a team win a super bowl are much higher in the first round than any other round. Not saying that it can't be done in later rounds, but the odds are much lower.
I wasn't comparing Eli to Rivers. And no kidding the goal isn't to be good but to win SBs.
But lets forget all that-- let's change the goal to let's be maybe mediocre with tyreek hill wide out to lift up this offense and Daniel Jones and at the same time devote a large partr of the cap to paying jones 20 million dollars. The real goal here is to root for jones because he is likable and too many too comfortable bourgouis types can't fathom cheering for someone who might be a total asshole. You know what then maybe you should nt take entertainment that serious then.
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In comment 15925142 BillKo said:
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In comment 15925127 pjcas18 said:
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one, absolutely.
but when you look at SB winning QB's the past 23 years (since 2000) you aren't getting a win outside the 1st with any reliability.
You have the following SB wins:
1st round: 11 (Stafford, Mahomes, Rodgers, Roethlisberger (2), E Manning (2), P Manning (2), Flacco, Dilfer
2nd round: 1 (Brees)
3rd round: 2 (Wilson, Foles)
4th round:
5th round:
6th round: 7 (Brady)
7th round:
UDFA/Later than 7th round: 2 (Brad Johnson and Kurt Warner)
So, fool's gold or not, SB wins aren't coming from somewhere else unless you want to bank your franchise future on drafting a QB in the 6th round.
Good chart.
I'd remove Foles because he didn't really QB a SB winner from "start to finish".
And furthermore, our two greatest QBs - Simms and Manning - are 1st rounders.
So yes if the talent appears to be there you jump in and take the player in the 1st round.
I will say that the way the league is transforming to more running QBs, I think you may see more 2nd and 3rd round picks maybe start to fill in PJ's chart.
Interesting how many of those weren’t with the team that drafted them.
Not really significant. Of the 14 named QBs, Dilfer, Stafford, Brees and Johnson didn’t win their Superbowls with their original team. Foles won with the Eagles in his second stint there. So, in more than 20 Superbowls, 4 won for another team. Do we need to figure in P. Manning and Brady?
Peyton didn't win #2 with his original team either.
And if we want to be REALLY pedantic, Eli didn't win any with his original team.