Had 4 opportunities and all the Giants need was a FG. 136 yards passing through 4 quarters is pathetic also! If this is our offense with DJ going forward, let him walk!
Had 4 opportunities and all the Giants need was a FG. 136 yards passing through 4 quarters is pathetic also! If this is our offense with DJ going forward, let him walk!
How about giving the OC some shit for a terrible start to the calls on four second half series in a row?
But Jones played a good game today. He ran the plays that were called, was perfect (aside from a spike) well into the second half, and ran for multiple first downs.
I just don’t understand the hate for the guy. At all.
One really bad series where Slayton dropped a ball that would have gotten him into almost FG range.
Well, in the most important game of his career, he started it out fumbling the ball and turning it over on the first drive, giving the ball to Washington in Giants territory.
When game time is on the line in the 4th Quarter -- he bumbles the play.
I don't think that's what a franchise championship QB does when the pressure is on.
Different story if he doesn’t drop that. Or no taunting penalty. Or Richie James doesn’t get confused and run into Barkley. Lots of things. Washington tied the game, too.
Ron Rivera put the game in the hands of his UDFA QB and he delivered. Kafka and Daboll wouldn’t be caught dead doing the same with Jones. That’s all you need to know. Don’t want to hear about OLs or receivers, Jones is a starter for his legs only. He’s not adequate in any other area. Take the last play. MY desperately needed 5 more yards. He knew Washington would bring pressure, yet when he took the snap he had no clue and threw the ball away in desperation. Gano’s FG would have been good from 53. Seen all I have to and I bet they have too.
was very much same as two prior games....run SB between tackles....or should I say try to run SB....unfair to player, shows our defense that we're not up to the task and unreasonable to assume such calls would bring success...we needed to show that we have confidence and that we will try to win in regulation...this play calling did anything but that
One really bad series where Slayton dropped a ball that would have gotten him into almost FG range.
Well, in the most important game of his career, he started it out fumbling the ball and turning it over on the first drive, giving the ball to Washington in Giants territory.
When game time is on the line in the 4th Quarter -- he bumbles the play.
I don't think that's what a franchise championship QB does when the pressure is on.
You think HE made the mistake when James and Barkley ran into each other?????
Jones was one of the only reasons thry should have won, but your take is the idiot take.
In what way? He wasn’t bad but the fumble handed Washington points early, and they couldn’t get anything going in the second half in nearly two and a half quarters.
The only reason they were even able to tie was because of the defense
Had 4 opportunities and all the Giants need was a FG. 136 yards passing through 4 quarters is pathetic also! If this is our offense with DJ going forward, let him walk!
A pretty good runner. An adequate game manager. Requires a very, very simplified offense to complete a bunch of short passes. If you design an offense around his weaknesses, he can keep you in games against mediocre teams.
Hes a running QB. He just looks and acts the way a lot of fans like their QBs to look and act so he has a fan club and an excuse factory.
Critical of Jones because of one error he made within the first few moments of the game is pretty ridiculous. He rebounded after with a beautiful throw downfield.
And then blaming him for both Barkley and James screwing up running into another.
Ron Rivera put the game in the hands of his UDFA QB and he delivered. Kafka and Daboll wouldn’t be caught dead doing the same with Jones. That’s all you need to know. Don’t want to hear about OLs or receivers, Jones is a starter for his legs only. He’s not adequate in any other area. Take the last play. MY desperately needed 5 more yards. He knew Washington would bring pressure, yet when he took the snap he had no clue and threw the ball away in desperation. Gano’s FG would have been good from 53. Seen all I have to and I bet they have too.
Throwing two deep balls on the final drive of regulation...one dropped...one at least illegal contact if not PI...wasn't putting the game in Jones hands? Interesting.
Ron Rivera put the game in the hands of his UDFA QB and he delivered. Kafka and Daboll wouldn’t be caught dead doing the same with Jones. That’s all you need to know. Don’t want to hear about OLs or receivers, Jones is a starter for his legs only. He’s not adequate in any other area. Take the last play. MY desperately needed 5 more yards. He knew Washington would bring pressure, yet when he took the snap he had no clue and threw the ball away in desperation. Gano’s FG would have been good from 53. Seen all I have to and I bet they have too.
Throwing two deep balls on the final drive of regulation...one dropped...one at least illegal contact if not PI...wasn't putting the game in Jones hands? Interesting.
There wasn’t illegal contact on that play. If it was then they shouldn’t have picked up the flag near the goaline with Mclaurin
Different story if he doesn’t drop that. Or no taunting penalty. Or Richie James doesn’t get confused and run into Barkley. Lots of things. Washington tied the game, too.
Yeah but It’s DJ’s fault. Lol.
Look I’m not a DJ by all means defender but to put thi tie on him is ridiculous. He’d be about 8th -9th down my list of reasons and just trying to be fair.
As Gisele would say he can’t throw them and catch them too! Also didn’t see him flexing at anyone or missing any tackles while playing DB
I just don't want to hear it anymore...the excuses or reasons or whatever....I've been a Giant fan all my life and will die as one, but I am sick of Jones. Sick of watching him. Just tired of it.
Ron Rivera put the game in the hands of his UDFA QB and he delivered. Kafka and Daboll wouldn’t be caught dead doing the same with Jones. That’s all you need to know. Don’t want to hear about OLs or receivers, Jones is a starter for his legs only. He’s not adequate in any other area. Take the last play. MY desperately needed 5 more yards. He knew Washington would bring pressure, yet when he took the snap he had no clue and threw the ball away in desperation. Gano’s FG would have been good from 53. Seen all I have to and I bet they have too.
Throwing two deep balls on the final drive of regulation...one dropped...one at least illegal contact if not PI...wasn't putting the game in Jones hands? Interesting.
There wasn’t illegal contact on that play. If it was then they shouldn’t have picked up the flag near the goaline with Mclaurin
You're right. But Slayton has to make a better play at the ball and he gets a PI flag. Again...a better WR is counted on to do more than run fast and try to catch ball.
Who do so many people ignore that’s he’s a pending FA
the passing offense so limited because they don't trust Jones, or because of our subpar WRs and turnstile OL? It's probably a little of both. I would rank them as follows, from most to least worst:
OL (Interior).
WRs.
Jones.
But I still think the coaches have deliberately limited the passing offense at least partially because of deficiencies they see in Jones in that area. My guess is he'll want more than what the Giants are willing to pay, but let's see what happens the rest of the year.
It's not enough to not make mistakes, though he did certainly make some mistakes, he doesn't have the ability to consistently make enough plays to help us become a more dominant team. He's meh.
Different story if he doesn’t drop that. Or no taunting penalty. Or Richie James doesn’t get confused and run into Barkley. Lots of things. Washington tied the game, too.
the passing offense so limited because they don't trust Jones, or because of our subpar WRs and turnstile OL? It's probably a little of both. I would rank them as follows, from most to least worst:
OL (Interior).
WRs.
Jones.
But I still think the coaches have deliberately limited the passing offense at least partially because of deficiencies they see in Jones in that area. My guess is he'll want more than what the Giants are willing to pay, but let's see what happens the rest of the year.
I seriously have never heard of an offense that was scripted as limited because of the WRs. Never. And I have been watching football for 50 years. It's always the QB. And this is two regimes in a row that have handled Jones this way. Some folks refuse to accept reality.
Ron Rivera put the game in the hands of his UDFA QB and he delivered. Kafka and Daboll wouldn’t be caught dead doing the same with Jones. That’s all you need to know. Don’t want to hear about OLs or receivers, Jones is a starter for his legs only. He’s not adequate in any other area. Take the last play. MY desperately needed 5 more yards. He knew Washington would bring pressure, yet when he took the snap he had no clue and threw the ball away in desperation. Gano’s FG would have been good from 53. Seen all I have to and I bet they have too.
Throwing two deep balls on the final drive of regulation...one dropped...one at least illegal contact if not PI...wasn't putting the game in Jones hands? Interesting.
There wasn’t illegal contact on that play. If it was then they shouldn’t have picked up the flag near the goaline with Mclaurin
Ok, I'll concede the point. What about the drop the play before? And mybother point remains. He said they wouldn't put the ball in Jones hands to win the game. What say you?
the passing offense so limited because they don't trust Jones, or because of our subpar WRs and turnstile OL? It's probably a little of both. I would rank them as follows, from most to least worst:
OL (Interior).
WRs.
Jones.
But I still think the coaches have deliberately limited the passing offense at least partially because of deficiencies they see in Jones in that area. My guess is he'll want more than what the Giants are willing to pay, but let's see what happens the rest of the year.
I seriously have never heard of an offense that was scripted as limited because of the WRs. Never. And I have been watching football for 50 years. It's always the QB. And this is two regimes in a row that have handled Jones this way. Some folks refuse to accept reality.
If you watch the games you've already seen it this year. Chicago does the same thing....except they actually have better WRs than we do.
But he also made a great play to have what was our longest offensive play of the day.
We know what Slayton is, and he’s not the one up for a big contract.
That's the point. We know what Slayton is. A guy who barely hangs on to an NFL roster. Probably a little better than that. This is our BEST WR. When we needed to pass we went to him and we got drops.
A pretty good runner. An adequate game manager. Requires a very, very simplified offense to complete a bunch of short passes. If you design an offense around his weaknesses, he can keep you in games against mediocre teams.
Hes a running QB. He just looks and acts the way a lot of fans like their QBs to look and act so he has a fan club and an excuse factory.
Exactly. Take away his running, and he's a terrible starting QB. As it stands, he's average at best.
Had 4 opportunities and all the Giants need was a FG. 136 yards passing through 4 quarters is pathetic also! If this is our offense with DJ going forward, let him walk!
How about giving the OC some shit for a terrible start to the calls on four second half series in a row?
WRs, OLine, Barkley, the defense, and now the OC? At some point this has to stop. DJ is average and incapable of carrying an offense, even when defenses are scheming to stop Barkley.
It's like the people who die defending Jones don't care about scoring points...it's the same shit every week.
I thought DJ played well enough to win, the fumble was brutal. With this Oline he really played a solid game outside the fumble. I do feel either he is not taking any chances downfield or Daball is grounding him. Bottom line we can't continue to play a HS offense.
With the idea that Jones is who he is and that might not be enough to get us over the hump but to not acknowledge the cowardly play calling at the end of each half is beyond the pale
Either you want to evaluate the QB or not.
I'm sure you're a nice guy, appreciate you being a mod and a loyal Giants fan. But, you don't anything insightful. Glad you're done with Jones. You can relax now.
I'm sure you're a nice guy, appreciate you being a mod and a loyal Giants fan. But, you don't anything insightful. Glad you're done with Jones. You can relax now.
A pretty good runner. An adequate game manager. Requires a very, very simplified offense to complete a bunch of short passes. If you design an offense around his weaknesses, he can keep you in games against mediocre teams.
Hes a running QB. He just looks and acts the way a lot of fans like their QBs to look and act so he has a fan club and an excuse factory.
Exactly. Take away his running, and he's a terrible starting QB. As it stands, he's average at best.
Allen, Mahommes, Fields, Hurts- none of them would be the same if you took away their running. Or their receivers.
someone will explain to me how we can so confidently criticize an NFL QB as being "not what we need" when he's trying to run the offense with XFL WRs.
Because it's obviously not going to happen this year. The Anti-DJ contingent is clearly desperate. They went into this year assuming the team would struggle to win six games, and the decision to move on from Jones would be easy. Instead, he's not only made it a conversation, but to this point, on his own merits has all but ended it. All his haters can do now is flail and try to hammer every seeming mistake to make the opposing argument seem self-evident. But we see you.
I’m good with moving on. But creating a thread to proclaim your stance is about as pointless as it gets.
Let Jones test the market and see what happens. There’s a price for keeping him, but for me it’s more about the years. I’d love a 2 year deal which would allow us to draft someone high in either 2023 or 2024.
His supporting cast is shit including the so call All Pro RB at 3 yds a carry. If you are saying Jones needs to win this game than Barkley needs to do his part. And where was the $30m a year man on the DL when they ran straight through us. Most of you are clueless and obviously never played the game. Yea Archie Manning sucked as a QB. It had nothing to do with the players around him on the Saints. Saints couldn’t win games so it’s all on him. Just stupid.
With nothing. They're doing fine because Mahomes is gifted. He isn't the comparison. Herbert is worse this year because his receivers are always hurt. But he's still talented. If the talent is there it manifests itself. No one is unsure about Herbert's ability to be a franchise QB. It shows up in the process, not the results.
Felicianos dumb penalty(know your role), the 4th down to dotson, slayton a drop on the long ball(he’s good for one a game then hes useless) and the play calling all we’re more of a reason we tied than Daniel jones
Is doo doo without a replacement. I’m ok with moving on if their is someone better. If his recognition is an issue, that will be obvious to the coaching staff. It’s fairly obvious that we have the worst WR corp in the league. Our interior oline needs to be completely reworked.
Terps was on the Pickett/Willis train. I’d rather have Jones.
There weren’t great alternatives last year, and we have to have a path to a QB in the upcoming draft and free agency. We’ll see!
His supporting cast is shit including the so call All Pro RB at 3 yds a carry. If you are saying Jones needs to win this game than Barkley needs to do his part. And where was the $30m a year man on the DL when they ran straight through us. Most of you are clueless and obviously never played the game. Yea Archie Manning sucked as a QB. It had nothing to do with the players around him on the Saints. Saints couldn’t win games so it’s all on him. Just stupid.
Felicianos dumb penalty(know your role), the 4th down to dotson, slayton a drop on the long ball(he’s good for one a game then hes useless) and the play calling all we’re more of a reason we tied than Daniel jones
Really sucked, but the Giants failure to secure a win was not because of Daniel Jones’ play. The play calling in general and the Giants o-line** in particular are more at fault. Way more.
A real, legitimate #1 receiver, and then we will know. I am willing to bet that Jones would put up Jalen Hurts type numbers if he had an AJ brown on this team. But yea, the Giants should get rid of Jones, draft a green rookie QB, and go 4-13 next year. Or, go with a journeyman like Tyrod Taylor and go 6-11. Brilliant, just brilliant.
He had an excellent game?! What did you expect with no WR's, no TE's, depth at RB, and patchwork OLINE??? The offense lacks so much talent! They have pretty much nothing.. I'm even surprised they almost beat Washington and they have much more talent on offense! To make things worse the defense is also lacking talent. smh..
I don't know how we have no intermediate passing game. Every throw felt within three yards of the LOS or 20 plus yards down field. I'm sure I'm exaggerating but it's frustrating not to be able to get 8-15 yards passing.
With the idea that Jones is who he is and that might not be enough to get us over the hump but to not acknowledge the cowardly play calling at the end of each half is beyond the pale
Either you want to evaluate the QB or not.
Have you asked yourself why? Coaches who work with DJ on a daily basis and know his limitations make those calls. DJ is the reason this offense is so dumbed-down.
Ron Rivera put the game in the hands of his UDFA QB and he delivered. Kafka and Daboll wouldn’t be caught dead doing the same with Jones. That’s all you need to know. Don’t want to hear about OLs or receivers, Jones is a starter for his legs only. He’s not adequate in any other area. Take the last play. MY desperately needed 5 more yards. He knew Washington would bring pressure, yet when he took the snap he had no clue and threw the ball away in desperation. Gano’s FG would have been good from 53. Seen all I have to and I bet they have too.
Where was he suppose to throw to and was the Washington D laying down so he can make the throw?
I'm sure you're a nice guy, appreciate you being a mod and a loyal Giants fan. But, you don't anything insightful. Glad you're done with Jones. You can relax now.
Ron Rivera put the game in the hands of his UDFA QB and he delivered. Kafka and Daboll wouldn’t be caught dead doing the same with Jones. That’s all you need to know. Don’t want to hear about OLs or receivers, Jones is a starter for his legs only. He’s not adequate in any other area. Take the last play. MY desperately needed 5 more yards. He knew Washington would bring pressure, yet when he took the snap he had no clue and threw the ball away in desperation. Gano’s FG would have been good from 53. Seen all I have to and I bet they have too.
That’s all we need to know?? You didn’t tell us anything.
So, who are we going to sign this off season? Who is taking us to "the promised land"?
I want to know because there are many teams that need a QB like that. We will need to get a jump on it.
If it is not a free agent and instead, someone in the draft, then who is it? If that guy is going to go in the top 10, then we need to be sure that we are able to trade up that far.
We have to make a decision on Jones before the draft... correct?
One really bad series where Slayton dropped a ball that would have gotten him into almost FG range.
Well, in the most important game of his career, he started it out fumbling the ball and turning it over on the first drive, giving the ball to Washington in Giants territory.
When game time is on the line in the 4th Quarter -- he bumbles the play.
I don't think that's what a franchise championship QB does when the pressure is on.
Brady, Rogers, Allen, Mahomes… have all had fumbles. DJ has cleaned up the mistakes. It’s unreasonable to expect him to be completely infallible
Just put the ball in Brock Purdys hands to drive down the field for a TD before half. Yea his weapons are better, but it’s also Brock Purdy.
I saw a WR screen to Deebo in which he should’ve been tackled 4 yards behind the LOS, but he broke the tackle and turned it into a 7 yard gain. Talent matters.
As for “trust”, there have been plenty of times they’ve trusted him (third and longs, for example) and other times where they just appear to give up. Even if they “trusted” Jones, which is up for debate, would you trust anyone else on the offense not wearing #26?
I have nothing against Jones. He is who he is. Today was just further proof of that. If people are holding out hope for him to be more than you're just wasting your breath. I jumped shipped when the new regime arrived.
The good news is I think the staff feels that way. Between not picking up 5th year option and not really trusting him in big spots, I think they're doing the best they can to make sure Jones doesn't lose games for them. It's worked much of season.
But, they'll move on IMO. He's not the QB to build around.
Ron Rivera put the game in the hands of his UDFA QB and he delivered. Kafka and Daboll wouldn’t be caught dead doing the same with Jones. That’s all you need to know. Don’t want to hear about OLs or receivers, Jones is a starter for his legs only. He’s not adequate in any other area. Take the last play. MY desperately needed 5 more yards. He knew Washington would bring pressure, yet when he took the snap he had no clue and threw the ball away in desperation. Gano’s FG would have been good from 53. Seen all I have to and I bet they have too.
He didn’t just need five yards. He needed 5 yards plus getting out of bounds as we had no timeouts.
RE: RE: The Giants need to move on from Jones and Barkley
Heinicke looked better than Jones.
Robinson looked better than Barkley.
I don’t agree on Jones today. Jones stepped up big time after the fumble. And Slayton dropped yet another pass in a big spot, which likely leads to clock run off and a FG to win the game.
I don't know how we have no intermediate passing game. Every throw felt within three yards of the LOS or 20 plus yards down field. I'm sure I'm exaggerating but it's frustrating not to be able to get 8-15 yards passing.
Because those are the hardest throws. The offense is designed for extremely short throws to targets right in front of Jones and the occasional go ball, which also requires zero decion making.
When we were down 10-0 what did we do? Our bread and butter - bootleg, Jones throws 3 yards in the air to someone right in front of him.
There is no NFL offense that asks less from their QB in the passing game than the Giants.
Where would you rank Jones among Giants quarterbacks since 1980?
I would rank him after Eli and Simms and ahead of Collins. I don’t think the difference between Simms and Jones is that different.
From my username: I thought Eli was elite.
Key difference between Simms and Jones: deep passing. Both are tough and competitive. My biggest knock on Jones is that he does not take deep shots against zones as often as I would like despite demonstrating a high level of accuracy. I think this is more due to play design and game strategy to give this team the best chance to win.
Collins was good, but a fragile quarterback. When things were going right he was truly amazing (e.g. Vikings playoff game) but he caved easily when things were tough (e.g. Baltimore Super Bowl).
In the last 40+ years, Jones is in the top 2-4 quarterbacks that the Giants have had. Until you have someone with a high probability of being better, I think you try and sign or tag him.
that is based partly on blaming Jones for the James mistake is ridiculous. I really would love to know how that opinion is formed. Do you really think the play called for James and Barkley to cross directly in front of Jones and run into each other?
Because if that's the case, I have a hard time giving any analysis ever offered by you any validity. It's just that ridiculous of a conclusion.
That we are probably better off letting Jones AND Barkley walk.
What’s scary is that Jones played a smart, largely mistake free game. It was a good outing for him. And we couldn’t score points. 13 + a TD from a strip sack deep in WFT territory. Meanwhile, Jones was completing virtually every pass for much of the game. Where are the points?
For those of us knocking our WRs, Slayton made an excellent play on that long reception. And that slant to Sills in the 2nd half had the receiver reaching back to snag the ball.
Let’s not pretend the WRs weren’t helping Jones at times. They were.
I would rank him after Eli and Simms and ahead of Collins. I don’t think the difference between Simms and Jones is that different.
From my username: I thought Eli was elite.
Key difference between Simms and Jones: deep passing. Both are tough and competitive. My biggest knock on Jones is that he does not take deep shots against zones as often as I would like despite demonstrating a high level of accuracy. I think this is more due to play design and game strategy to give this team the best chance to win.
Collins was good, but a fragile quarterback. When things were going right he was truly amazing (e.g. Vikings playoff game) but he caved easily when things were tough (e.g. Baltimore Super Bowl).
In the last 40+ years, Jones is in the top 2-4 quarterbacks that the Giants have had. Until you have someone with a high probability of being better, I think you try and sign or tag him.
This place would have absolutely hated Phil Simms during his early career. And yet...
That we are probably better off letting Jones AND Barkley walk.
What’s scary is that Jones played a smart, largely mistake free game. It was a good outing for him. And we couldn’t score points. 13 + a TD from a strip sack deep in WFT territory. Meanwhile, Jones was completing virtually every pass for much of the game. Where are the points?
For those of us knocking our WRs, Slayton made an excellent play on that long reception. And that slant to Sills in the 2nd half had the receiver reaching back to snag the ball.
Let’s not pretend the WRs weren’t helping Jones at times. They were.
He didn't do much special either. It's not only about avoiding mistakes. it's about making many big plays.
That we are probably better off letting Jones AND Barkley walk.
What’s scary is that Jones played a smart, largely mistake free game. It was a good outing for him. And we couldn’t score points. 13 + a TD from a strip sack deep in WFT territory. Meanwhile, Jones was completing virtually every pass for much of the game. Where are the points?
For those of us knocking our WRs, Slayton made an excellent play on that long reception. And that slant to Sills in the 2nd half had the receiver reaching back to snag the ball.
Let’s not pretend the WRs weren’t helping Jones at times. They were.
He didn't do much special either. It's not only about avoiding mistakes. it's about making many big plays.
Kinda hard to make big plays when you’re tossing deep balls to Darius Slayton instead of Justin Jefferson, AJ Brown, or Tyreek Hill.
Jones may or may not be here next season, but the Giants need a WR corps for whoever the QB is in 2023 and beyond.
He didn't do much special either. It's not only about avoiding mistakes. it's about making many big plays.
Who’s the QB you see around the league consistently making these big plays with a receiving corps similar to the Giants? I’m genuinely interested in your answer.
So many different ways the Giants could have won this game
One of the posters made a point that Jones flaws are more of Omission than Commission.
I continue to think Jones will enjoy a lucrative career as a backup QB. Head coaches trying to get to the playoffs despite an injured starting QB will love what they get from Jones - low errors, running. Outings like today will create a lot of demand for him - as a backup.
I don’t think your comment is very wise because I think his hands were tied once we went up 20-13. So if you are upset with him at that, maybe you should consider the plays being called and who else might get some blame. Kafka for that conservative plan that didn’t allow for first down passes….maybe? Feliciano for that stupid penalty that took us out of FG range maybe? Saquon for going away in the 2nd half…maybe? For whoever was covering Samuel on that 4th down pass…maybe?
I really hate this comment, especially within the first several posts. If you disagree, debate it…. Otherwise why post a throwaway line like this? Does it make you feel cool?
I’m not sure the Giants agree with that, but let’s say they do. That means in one offseason, you’re needing a QB, RB, WR1, WR2, and probably another OL or two. I’m not even talking depth, I’m talking starters on offense.
Then, on defense, you desperately need a LB or two. Probably also need a CB opposite Adoree when he comes back.
You’re talking replacing 7-8 players out of a possible 22 starters. That seems like a lot.
can't be said enough. The "taunting" call was complete bullshit and should be reviewed as to why it was ever made. If making a spooning sign isn't taunting, you should be able to go to your OWN TEAMMATE and muscle up.
The league needs to get it priorities in order and the calls cost us a win today
But Jones played a good game today. He ran the plays that were called, was perfect (aside from a spike) well into the second half, and ran for multiple first downs.
I just don’t understand the hate for the guy. At all.
This is my take.
I get why people are fed up with him—he’s the qb and so people blame him for our anemic offense. But there’s more nuance than that. As you say, the IOL is weak and is the passcatching group is even weaker. A mid-round rookie TE is one of our better weapons. Which other starting qb would put up numbers with this talent?
His passing yards are low but critics also need to factor in his rushing yards.
Jones is not elite, but he’s also not the problem. Get Jones some decent passcatchers and let’s see what he does.
RE: RE: Where would you rank Jones among Giants quarterbacks since 1980?
In comment 15932567 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
In comment 15932551 I_Believe_In_Eli said:
Quote:
I would rank him after Eli and Simms and ahead of Collins. I don’t think the difference between Simms and Jones is that different.
From my username: I thought Eli was elite.
Key difference between Simms and Jones: deep passing. Both are tough and competitive. My biggest knock on Jones is that he does not take deep shots against zones as often as I would like despite demonstrating a high level of accuracy. I think this is more due to play design and game strategy to give this team the best chance to win.
Collins was good, but a fragile quarterback. When things were going right he was truly amazing (e.g. Vikings playoff game) but he caved easily when things were tough (e.g. Baltimore Super Bowl).
In the last 40+ years, Jones is in the top 2-4 quarterbacks that the Giants have had. Until you have someone with a high probability of being better, I think you try and sign or tag him.
This place would have absolutely hated Phil Simms during his early career. And yet...
For better or worse, the reality of the cap means that you gotta be sure if you want to commit to a QB's second contract now in a way that it just didn't with Phil Simms.
Jones is OK. He's not awful but he's limited at this stage of his career.
But this game is a testament to why paying him big money would be a mistake. Bad skill position players, terrible game plan in the second half, but he did NOTHING to elevate the team. The game was so winnable. I’m okay if they retain him on a team friendly, short deal and see what he can do with some good players around him. But paying him $25 million + is lunacy
Because the Giants didn’T kick in a few $$$ more and the Giants can’t find a more competent game manager in the draft or free agency in 2022, 90% of you will complain about how Schoen mishandled Jones. Then, when the same thing happens in 2023, the whining will become intolerable.
Wash is not all that good. Even if the taunting penalty had not been called, or if Slayton had caught that late deep ball, and the NYG had won, I would not have been very impressed with his performance. IMHO it's a 1 year bridge deal and then moving on from him in 2024 or it's adios to DJ in 2023. Either way, he will not be missed.
I don't think that the kinda-loss (non-win?) can be hung on any one facet, I think it is a full on team problem. I do think they could have kicked a field goal before the bonehead Feliciano penalty (I don't care who may have been directing it to, it still looked like he walked toward WAS players so I am not at all surprised he was called for it). But we will never know. I think the play calling was terrible, especially at the end of the halves, I think there was a great deal of poor play by a lot of players. I do think the D probably helped keep the Giants more in the game than they would have been, especially given how much they were on the field. There is a great deal of blame all around. I don't think Jones is the QB of the Giant's future (but not because of this game, I've never been sold on him) and I would not be surprised if they let SB leave. I am looking forward to seeing what JS does with the draft. While I wasn't happy with the play callng this game, I am certainly not ready to move on from this coaching staff. I would like to see more. I did not expect the Giants to have 7 wins over the entire season so, while disappointed by this game, I'm not shocked either. I'll be interested to see what adjustments they make against Philly.
He’s seemingly a good guy, hard worker and has some skill, however he still does no have that innate ability of the Franchise QBs, when game is on the line. Eli was cool as a cucumber and made plays when he had to. I have no confidence in Jones either. He’s on par with Dave Brown, Danny Kanell IMO.
Heinicke looked better than Jones.
Robinson looked better than Barkley.
I don’t agree on Jones today. Jones stepped up big time after the fumble. And Slayton dropped yet another pass in a big spot, which likely leads to clock run off and a FG to win the game.
I’m sorry, but how did Jones step up? He threw for 200 yards (136 through 3 qtrs) and 55 of those were on a heave where Slayton made a nice adjustment to find it. He got us a TD in the second half when the defense set him up on the 20 and he hit a WR who created a ton of separation. Then the offense was a 3 and out machine the rest of the game.
I swear if Jones doesn’t literally shit himself some of you guys think it is a good day. If Zack Wilson played this game, you would all be laughing at how awful he is.
Wash is not all that good. Even if the taunting penalty had not been called, or if Slayton had caught that late deep ball, and the NYG had won, I would not have been very impressed with his performance. IMHO it's a 1 year bridge deal and then moving on from him in 2024 or it's adios to DJ in 2023. Either way, he will not be missed.
The taunting penalty literally caused the team to not win.
With respect to Barkley, I agree. Concerning Jones, who is out there either as FA or can be acquired via trade or through the draft that is a major upgrade without decimating draft capital?
He’s seemingly a good guy, hard worker and has some skill, however he still does no have that innate ability of the Franchise QBs, when game is on the line. Eli was cool as a cucumber and made plays when he had to. I have no confidence in Jones either. He’s on par with Dave Brown, Danny Kanell IMO.
He's better than Brown and Kanell. I'd say he's at the Collins level.
That we are probably better off letting Jones AND Barkley walk.
What’s scary is that Jones played a smart, largely mistake free game. It was a good outing for him. And we couldn’t score points. 13 + a TD from a strip sack deep in WFT territory. Meanwhile, Jones was completing virtually every pass for much of the game. Where are the points?
For those of us knocking our WRs, Slayton made an excellent play on that long reception. And that slant to Sills in the 2nd half had the receiver reaching back to snag the ball.
Let’s not pretend the WRs weren’t helping Jones at times. They were.
Jones had a pretty good first half, specifically the second quarter. And then we got the early third quarter turnover and Jones had an easy throw to Hodgins, who ran an outstanding route.
After that? Jones was the Jones we have come to expect - ordinary. His QBR was 31.
BTW, that 4th down throw on 4th and 4 by Heinicke late in the game to Samuel was a tremendous play. That was the game...
But haven’t rewatched the game. Anyone have more informed comments about Neal?
Next to Feliciano and Glowinski, he looked like the 2nd coming of Leon Searcy... lol. Although to be fair a lot of our blocking problems today were also on the TEs.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The Giants need to move on from Jones and Barkley
Heinicke looked better than Jones.
Robinson looked better than Barkley.
I don’t agree on Jones today. Jones stepped up big time after the fumble. And Slayton dropped yet another pass in a big spot, which likely leads to clock run off and a FG to win the game.
I’m sorry, but how did Jones step up? He threw for 200 yards (136 through 3 qtrs) and 55 of those were on a heave where Slayton made a nice adjustment to find it. He got us a TD in the second half when the defense set him up on the 20 and he hit a WR who created a ton of separation. Then the offense was a 3 and out machine the rest of the game.
I swear if Jones doesn’t literally shit himself some of you guys think it is a good day. If Zack Wilson played this game, you would all be laughing at how awful he is.
You should apologize for not including his rushing yards, and the first downs he gained on the ground. I never said he had a great day, I said he was better than Heinicke. If Zack Wilson played he would have lost us the game, not sure why you even brought him up.
If you don’t see the difference between what throwing to Slayton who drops game winners and an actual legit WR like McLaurin does for a QB than I don’t l know what else to say on this topic. And I’ll repeat again for the 100th time, I’m good moving on from Jones, but that doesn’t mean I think he’s awful like half these posts are suggesting.
People seem to think there are are franchise type guys hanging around. Also we aren't drafting low enough to guarantee a top QB. We may get someone, but hes not going to be a guy we automatically commit too. So that leaves us with what about next year. We will end up signing a QB who is very Jones-like. A middle of the road, game manager type guy. I mean would you really rather have Jimmy G, Geno, Baker, or Dalton over Jones? At worst case you'd call it a draw with Jimmy G or Geno. So I think it will come down to $$, which of these guys who are all about the same can they get. Not one of them is the future, that will need to come from the draft at some point or a big $$ FA at some point. The obvious benefit for Jones is he knows the team, players, and offense.
The only other option is to throw huge money at Lamar, but I'm not sure I like that either. We need a lot of players at Guard, WR, ILB and CB, and we can't be hamstrung by his big contract.
I don't think its likely Jones gets big money, but I think he tests the market. However I think any team he is talking too will do the same analysis above, and come to the same conclusion that he isn't worth more than those guys
infinitely better than Slayton, he was being covered by JAGs (and that’s being nice). Heinicke made a really good throw at the end of the game be he also missed a bunch, ones that many here would dog Jones for.
His supporting cast is shit including the so call All Pro RB at 3 yds a carry. If you are saying Jones needs to win this game than Barkley needs to do his part. And where was the $30m a year man on the DL when they ran straight through us. Most of you are clueless and obviously never played the game. Yea Archie Manning sucked as a QB. It had nothing to do with the players around him on the Saints. Saints couldn’t win games so it’s all on him. Just stupid.
All pro?
80% completions not including spikes, 200yds, leading rusher 70+ yards, 0 int, 1 fumble. Playing with that OL, WR and Barkley producing shit, I would consider that #1 stud on the team. There were plenty of duds.
People seem to think there are are franchise type guys hanging around. Also we aren't drafting low enough to guarantee a top QB. We may get someone, but hes not going to be a guy we automatically commit too. So that leaves us with what about next year. We will end up signing a QB who is very Jones-like. A middle of the road, game manager type guy. I mean would you really rather have Jimmy G, Geno, Baker, or Dalton over Jones? At worst case you'd call it a draw with Jimmy G or Geno. So I think it will come down to $$, which of these guys who are all about the same can they get. Not one of them is the future, that will need to come from the draft at some point or a big $$ FA at some point. The obvious benefit for Jones is he knows the team, players, and offense.
The only other option is to throw huge money at Lamar, but I'm not sure I like that either. We need a lot of players at Guard, WR, ILB and CB, and we can't be hamstrung by his big contract.
I don't think its likely Jones gets big money, but I think he tests the market. However I think any team he is talking too will do the same analysis above, and come to the same conclusion that he isn't worth more than those guys
... we had McLaurin and the Commanders offensive line.
Apparently every other roster but the Giants is loaded. Been hearing this for 4 years.
Sean, go through the skill position corps of every other NFC East team and compare them to the Giants. Which one do you rate below the Giants?
Every other team in the Giants division has 3 WRs, minimum, that we would take over the Giants' players. TE? Wash is probably the "worst" with Logan Thomas, and he's pretty damn good. RB? Yup, the Giants have Barkley....after that?
The Giants are in a rebuild and the skill players are #1 on the offensive shopping list.
People seem to think there are are franchise type guys hanging around. Also we aren't drafting low enough to guarantee a top QB. We may get someone, but hes not going to be a guy we automatically commit too. So that leaves us with what about next year. We will end up signing a QB who is very Jones-like. A middle of the road, game manager type guy. I mean would you really rather have Jimmy G, Geno, Baker, or Dalton over Jones? At worst case you'd call it a draw with Jimmy G or Geno. So I think it will come down to $$, which of these guys who are all about the same can they get. Not one of them is the future, that will need to come from the draft at some point or a big $$ FA at some point. The obvious benefit for Jones is he knows the team, players, and offense.
The only other option is to throw huge money at Lamar, but I'm not sure I like that either. We need a lot of players at Guard, WR, ILB and CB, and we can't be hamstrung by his big contract.
I don't think its likely Jones gets big money, but I think he tests the market. However I think any team he is talking too will do the same analysis above, and come to the same conclusion that he isn't worth more than those guys
It's not even between Daniel Jones and Jimmy G. Cmon
Jones was ok for the most part today, and didn’t throw many incompletions and the offense was nonexistent.
How is anyone comfortable with a long term deal on the hope it changes with different receivers?
Do you seriously think Jones and this team would look the same if we had Miami's or Buffalo's or Cincinatti's receivers?
Don't bother. Our No. 1 receiver right now is a guy who this staff couldn't wait to get rid of. Forced to take a pay cut, and even with that was buried in the depth chart. Think about that. He is now WR1. WR2 is a guy we picked up a few weeks ago off waivers. How is it possible DJ isn't lighting it up with this group. Anyone who cannot acknowledge the obvious fact that tis is a woefully deficient group that handcuffs eyerything in this offense has an agenda.
And that's without discussing the mediocre to bad pass blocking of the interior of the OL.
RE: RE: This was THE game for Jones to prove himself.
Wash is not all that good. Even if the taunting penalty had not been called, or if Slayton had caught that late deep ball, and the NYG had won, I would not have been very impressed with his performance. IMHO it's a 1 year bridge deal and then moving on from him in 2024 or it's adios to DJ in 2023. Either way, he will not be missed.
The taunting penalty literally caused the team to not win.
Jones was ok for the most part today, and didn’t throw many incompletions and the offense was nonexistent.
How is anyone comfortable with a long term deal on the hope it changes with different receivers?
Do you seriously think Jones and this team would look the same if we had Miami's or Buffalo's or Cincinatti's receivers?
I’d ask if you thought this team would look the same with Josh Allen or Joe Burrow, but I know the answer for some of you because you will believe Jones is elite no matter how much film is put in front of you.
In comment 15932805 Mike from Ohio said:
[quote] In comment 15932768 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
In comment 15932594 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Jones was ok for the most part today, and didn’t throw many incompletions and the offense was nonexistent.
How is anyone comfortable with a long term deal on the hope it changes with different receivers?
Do you seriously think Jones and this team would look the same if we had Miami's or Buffalo's or Cincinatti's receivers?
I’d ask if you thought this team would look the same with Josh Allen or Joe Burrow, but I know the answer for some of you because you will believe Jones is elite no matter how much film is put in front of you. [/quote
Doesn’t matter what any of us think about Jones, we won’t be influithe decision Giants make about him.
I sometimes get the impression the Jones critics hold us responsible for Giants losses
RE: RE: RE: Cosmic I think you bring up a great point
I’d ask if you thought this team would look the same with Josh Allen or Joe Burrow, but I know the answer for some of you because you will believe Jones is elite no matter how much film is put in front of you.
The problem with your point is that if QB talent was all that mattered, why did the Bengals use a top 10 pick on Jamarr Chase when they already had 2 talented receivers? Why did the Bills trade a first round pick for Stefon Diggs? Josh Allen didn’t throw for 300 yards once during his first two years in the league. In fact Josh Allen averaged almost exactly the same amount of passing yards the year before BUF got Diggs that Daniel Jones is averaging this season.
People are allowed to think Daniel Jones isn’t good enough. And he’s certainly not as talented as Allen and Burrow. But the idea that he’s (or any other QB if they were placed in this situation) in no way affected by the dearth of talent at the wide receiver position is just idiotic.
His supporting cast is shit including the so call All Pro RB at 3 yds a carry. If you are saying Jones needs to win this game than Barkley needs to do his part. And where was the $30m a year man on the DL when they ran straight through us. Most of you are clueless and obviously never played the game. Yea Archie Manning sucked as a QB. It had nothing to do with the players around him on the Saints. Saints couldn’t win games so it’s all on him. Just stupid.
All pro?
80% completions not including spikes, 200yds, leading rusher 70+ yards, 0 int, 1 fumble. Playing with that OL, WR and Barkley producing shit, I would consider that #1 stud on the team. There were plenty of duds.
I can't believe people are actually using the completion percentage as evidence that Jones played a good game. He barely threw the ball downfield at all. How many yards did all those completions amount to? Take away the prayer he threw up to Slayton for 50 or 60 yards (and it wasn't a great throw by any means, rather it was a nice adjustment by Slayton) and he did squat through the air today.
25/31 for 200 yards a TD, 71 rushing yards, and a fumble.
It's not a bad game. It's not a great game either. Sucks that Slayton couldn't bring that one in to improve that statline. Also sucks DJ couldn't hold onto the ball to improve that statline.
I really wonder what kind of contract DJ gets and from who next year.
RE: Where would you rank Jones among Giants quarterbacks since 1980?
I would rank him after Eli and Simms and ahead of Collins. I don’t think the difference between Simms and Jones is that different.
You didn't get to see these guys live, then. I watched them play during their eras.
Jones isn't in the same class as Eli, Simms, Collins,the Winner of SB 25, Jeff Hostetler (who you didn't mention) AND Superbowl/MVP winner Kurt Warner! Simms was MILES ahead of Jones, and other than Bavaro, had worst WR's than Jones has! (Slayton, believe it or not, would be a #1 on the 1986 team that won a SB).
And you obviously didn't see Collins live (I watched him plenty at Albany Camp). Collins had the best arm of any Giants QB, he had a laser. Put him in Dabol's offense, and he'd be unstoppable.
Collins only problem was not being able to audible, and being hampered by Jim Fassel loosing his nut sack when he game planned against the Ravens in the 2000 SB (he totally gave up on the run). Jones simply isn't anywhere near as good as Kerry at this point. Look at what Kerry could do against the Vikings in the 2000 NFC Championship game (I was there!) Giants 41, Vikings ZERO!!
I put Jones in the Brunner, Danny Kannell, Kent Graham, Dave Brown group. He's Alex Smith lite...put a great team around him, and you can get to the playoffs, but you won't sniff a Super Bowl.
Like Alex Smith, we may need to have him around a year or two, considering how many holes there still are at WR, LB, etc. I doubt the team has enough firepower to move up in the draft, and you wouldn't want to draft a QB without the help he needs.
We're probably still three years away from being a serious contender (Replacing Jones/Barkley and developing a rookie qb). Let's NOT fall into the Denver trap (Russell Wilson), by going after an older QB.
lot of the passes Jones completes are dump offs or quick hitters. That is of course a function of our limited WRs and the inability of our interior OL to protect him, but it may make his stat line a little misleading. But I do agree that overall, his day was good. With all the running he does, a few fumbles throughout the course of the season are to be expected.
Jones can move though when he runs. Still has not demonstrated an ability to lead the offense with his arm consistently, or lead the big late game drive throwing the ball. Would be a mistake to make a major commitment long term after this season.
RE: RE: RE: Cosmic I think you bring up a great point
Jones was ok for the most part today, and didn’t throw many incompletions and the offense was nonexistent.
How is anyone comfortable with a long term deal on the hope it changes with different receivers?
Do you seriously think Jones and this team would look the same if we had Miami's or Buffalo's or Cincinatti's receivers?
Don't bother. Our No. 1 receiver right now is a guy who this staff couldn't wait to get rid of. Forced to take a pay cut, and even with that was buried in the depth chart. Think about that. He is now WR1. WR2 is a guy we picked up a few weeks ago off waivers. How is it possible DJ isn't lighting it up with this group. Anyone who cannot acknowledge the obvious fact that tis is a woefully deficient group that handcuffs eyerything in this offense has an agenda.
And that's without discussing the mediocre to bad pass blocking of the interior of the OL.
Yeah, uh, but he’s gotta suck it up and make plays.
Including Kerry Collins at Albany camp , which I attended many times. As I said, when the going was easy, Collins was amazing. Tough times, his confidence was so fragile, you could literally watch him choke the game away.
Don’t think as highly of Hoss as you do, although he had great games against the Bears and Bills to get us a Super Bowl. After defense coordinators figured out his weaknesses, he never delivered the same level performances.
Would be extending Daniel Jones for big money. It's the one thing that we could do that would destroy the rebuild before it starts. Given Maras affinity for Jones, it's been a major concern.
But as we proceed it's becoming obvious that this coaching staff has zero confidence in Jones to run an NFL passing offense. Last week, down by 15 in the 4th quarter we come out running the ball. In 2 minute situations, we come out running the ball. We very rarely call drop back passes and even less frequently throw to challenging areas of the field.
It's clear that this is a designer offense for a QB who's a pretty good runner and needs to see a receiver open right in front of him to pass effectively. To this staffs great credit, they have put Jones in positions to do OK given those massive constraints. But this is not a way to play football in the modern NFL and have any real success.
These last few games have made me increasingly confident that the coaches see no future with Jones as a starter. And that is great because it's nearly impossible to build a high level team with a QB as limited as Jones.
We only have 4 comeback wins this year - I'm guessing that was in spite of Jones because the staff CLEARLY doesn't trust him with the game on the line.
Then again, it wasn't too long ago we were regaled by these same bozos about how Jones has never been good at any level of play extending back to youth football.
I just wonder what motivates these takes, said with such confidence.
Would be extending Daniel Jones for big money. It's the one thing that we could do that would destroy the rebuild before it starts. Given Maras affinity for Jones, it's been a major concern.
But as we proceed it's becoming obvious that this coaching staff has zero confidence in Jones to run an NFL passing offense. Last week, down by 15 in the 4th quarter we come out running the ball. In 2 minute situations, we come out running the ball. We very rarely call drop back passes and even less frequently throw to challenging areas of the field.
It's clear that this is a designer offense for a QB who's a pretty good runner and needs to see a receiver open right in front of him to pass effectively. To this staffs great credit, they have put Jones in positions to do OK given those massive constraints. But this is not a way to play football in the modern NFL and have any real success.
These last few games have made me increasingly confident that the coaches see no future with Jones as a starter. And that is great because it's nearly impossible to build a high level team with a QB as limited as Jones.
If anything this game should make them realize they need to put more faith in Jones. Running with Barkley in the second half killed this offense. If Slayton holds on to the pass he drops, this story ends differently.
I don't know how we have no intermediate passing game. Every throw felt within three yards of the LOS or 20 plus yards down field. I'm sure I'm exaggerating but it's frustrating not to be able to get 8-15 yards passing.
Because those are the hardest throws. The offense is designed for extremely short throws to targets right in front of Jones and the occasional go ball, which also requires zero decion making.
When we were down 10-0 what did we do? Our bread and butter - bootleg, Jones throws 3 yards in the air to someone right in front of him.
There is no NFL offense that asks less from their QB in the passing game than the Giants.
This is a good point. Jones had a throw 15 yards down the field or so late in the game where defenders were draped over the receiver. Almost led to a pick.
Would be extending Daniel Jones for big money. It's the one thing that we could do that would destroy the rebuild before it starts. Given Maras affinity for Jones, it's been a major concern.
But as we proceed it's becoming obvious that this coaching staff has zero confidence in Jones to run an NFL passing offense. Last week, down by 15 in the 4th quarter we come out running the ball. In 2 minute situations, we come out running the ball. We very rarely call drop back passes and even less frequently throw to challenging areas of the field.
It's clear that this is a designer offense for a QB who's a pretty good runner and needs to see a receiver open right in front of him to pass effectively. To this staffs great credit, they have put Jones in positions to do OK given those massive constraints. But this is not a way to play football in the modern NFL and have any real success.
These last few games have made me increasingly confident that the coaches see no future with Jones as a starter. And that is great because it's nearly impossible to build a high level team with a QB as limited as Jones.
Last week was more frustrating than this one to me - down big to a superior team is the time to take risk and let it rip. I actually thought last week was poor coaching. Running the ball down two scores with five minutes left was a little silly IMO.
At some point the Giants have to be able to score 24 points
Would be extending Daniel Jones for big money. It's the one thing that we could do that would destroy the rebuild before it starts. Given Maras affinity for Jones, it's been a major concern.
But as we proceed it's becoming obvious that this coaching staff has zero confidence in Jones to run an NFL passing offense. Last week, down by 15 in the 4th quarter we come out running the ball. In 2 minute situations, we come out running the ball. We very rarely call drop back passes and even less frequently throw to challenging areas of the field.
It's clear that this is a designer offense for a QB who's a pretty good runner and needs to see a receiver open right in front of him to pass effectively. To this staffs great credit, they have put Jones in positions to do OK given those massive constraints. But this is not a way to play football in the modern NFL and have any real success.
These last few games have made me increasingly confident that the coaches see no future with Jones as a starter. And that is great because it's nearly impossible to build a high level team with a QB as limited as Jones.
If anything this game should make them realize they need to put more faith in Jones. Running with Barkley in the second half killed this offense. If Slayton holds on to the pass he drops, this story ends differently.
This is three coaching staffs in a row that have gone absurdly conservative in what they ask Jones to do.
And according to Sy it was a poor throw and bad jump. That was not a Slayton drop (as all but a few will admit).
The fact you even tried to reference that he wasn't good in high school should be cause for embarrassment.
Instead, you seem to think you had a fucking point. You want to relive your stupidity?? Have at it, Ace.
I said he was never good at any level. Usually when adults are talking that means high school or college. It's generally assumed that anybody playing professional sports was good in high school or younger. Feel free to go look it up but try not to alter my post when you do it.
Jones wasn't why we lost today. Oh wait, we didn't lose at all! We missed a game winning field goal that could easily have gone in and tied. This hurts the Skins much more than it hurts us.
Glad gidie switched sides. Now we can really enjoy it when Schoen re-signs Jones in the offseason and BBI turns into even a bigger joke of bad takes.
Jones wasn't why we lost today. Oh wait, we didn't lose at all! We missed a game winning field goal that could easily have gone in and tied. This hurts the Skins much more than it hurts us.
Glad gidie switched sides. Now we can really enjoy it when Schoen re-signs Jones in the offseason and BBI turns into even a bigger joke of bad takes.
It hurts us equally. If we don’t beat Washington in two weeks, we lose an 8-8-1 tie breaker to Washington. There’s also a realistic chance the Lions could get to 9-8 the way they’re playing and their schedule.
RE: BBI overreacts like a spoiled kid high on sugar having his lolly taken
Jones wasn't why we lost today. Oh wait, we didn't lose at all! We missed a game winning field goal that could easily have gone in and tied. This hurts the Skins much more than it hurts us.
Glad gidie switched sides. Now we can really enjoy it when Schoen re-signs Jones in the offseason and BBI turns into even a bigger joke of bad takes.
The case for Jones has always included that he's got "x game winning drives' in his career.
He had three chances to do just that and never got out of the parking lot.
In a game in which many people here indicated was a "big game-maybe the biggest of his career yet" he did what?
RE: RE: BBI overreacts like a spoiled kid high on sugar having his lolly taken
Jones wasn't why we lost today. Oh wait, we didn't lose at all! We missed a game winning field goal that could easily have gone in and tied. This hurts the Skins much more than it hurts us.
Glad gidie switched sides. Now we can really enjoy it when Schoen re-signs Jones in the offseason and BBI turns into even a bigger joke of bad takes.
The case for Jones has always included that he's got "x game winning drives' in his career.
He had three chances to do just that and never got out of the parking lot.
In a game in which many people here indicated was a "big game-maybe the biggest of his career yet" he did what?
He threw a strike to Slayton and he dropped it?
RE: RE: BBI overreacts like a spoiled kid high on sugar having his lolly taken
Jones wasn't why we lost today. Oh wait, we didn't lose at all! We missed a game winning field goal that could easily have gone in and tied. This hurts the Skins much more than it hurts us.
Glad gidie switched sides. Now we can really enjoy it when Schoen re-signs Jones in the offseason and BBI turns into even a bigger joke of bad takes.
The case for Jones has always included that he's got "x game winning drives' in his career.
He had three chances to do just that and never got out of the parking lot.
In a game in which many people here indicated was a "big game-maybe the biggest of his career yet" he did what?
Well on the first GW chance, he threw a 40 yard rope and his number 1 WR dropped it.
On his third GW chance, he’s on the Washington side of the field with a mailable 3rd and 2, and his halfback and receiver bump into each other screwing up the play like it’s pee wee ball.
If Slayton catches that ball OR we make a first down on that 3rd and 2, does Gidie even make this post?
I have no idea if Jones is the guy going forward. More than likely, he’s the bridge guy to the next guy. But let’s not act like his supporting cast isn’t Barkley, a number 3 guy in Slayton, and practice squad filler.
RE: RE: RE: BBI overreacts like a spoiled kid high on sugar having his lolly taken
Jones wasn't why we lost today. Oh wait, we didn't lose at all! We missed a game winning field goal that could easily have gone in and tied. This hurts the Skins much more than it hurts us.
Glad gidie switched sides. Now we can really enjoy it when Schoen re-signs Jones in the offseason and BBI turns into even a bigger joke of bad takes.
The case for Jones has always included that he's got "x game winning drives' in his career.
He had three chances to do just that and never got out of the parking lot.
In a game in which many people here indicated was a "big game-maybe the biggest of his career yet" he did what?
Well on the first GW chance, he threw a 40 yard rope and his number 1 WR dropped it.
On his third GW chance, he’s on the Washington side of the field with a mailable 3rd and 2, and his halfback and receiver bump into each other screwing up the play like it’s pee wee ball.
If Slayton catches that ball OR we make a first down on that 3rd and 2, does Gidie even make this post?
I have no idea if Jones is the guy going forward. More than likely, he’s the bridge guy to the next guy. But let’s not act like his supporting cast isn’t Barkley, a number 3 guy in Slayton, and practice squad filler.
There is no real evidence that they intend to attempt to keep him this offseason. From not even trying to discuss a contract with him, to the way they plan the game.
It's clear they don't trust him. They do not put the game in his hands and are extremely conservative in what they ask him to do.
One can take that however they see fit, but to me none of that equals the slightest bit of evidence they intend a long-term relationship with the player.
Doesn’t drop that pick on the drive we took the deep shots are you still making that post?
We can do what ifs for dozens of plays each game. The Giants are a handful of what ifs from being 5-7.
So if Jones checks down there, people like you chastise him for not taking chances. On a 3rd and 10 that should have never happened since Slayton dropped the long pass and was arguably interfered with on 2nd down, he tries to get aggressive, and fit one in, and the defender almost makes a diving play, and that’s on him?
I really kinda hope we move on from Jones, and he signs with San Fran or the Raiders, just to see what happens. I literally don’t think a portion of this fan base will ever accept him since he was probably overdrafted.
But Giants fans have also been weird with quarterbacks. We started saying “Eli will be fine” because half the fan base was ready to move on from him in November 2007. I know Simms was pretty much considered a China doll bust from about 1980 until 1984. And on we go.
Some Giants' fans hate him and some fans love him. The bottom line is this: he is playing behind an offensive line that needs 3 new interior starters, he has no NFL caliber TE to throw to (although Bellinger could be a possible #2) and he needs 2-3 NFL-caliber WR's who are not on the team yet. Despite having no protection and no weapons, half the people here berate him as a QB and want him gone ? He might not be the QB for the Giants going forward but how could you decide now ?
Give him some protection and some weapons, then see. Also, I would not resign Barkley. Use the money for OL and WR's, then you can sign a few lesser backs. NFL is a passing league and you don't need a franchise RB anymore. If Jones would accept a one-year deal, and the Giants commit to upgrading the OL and WR's, we might find out if Jones deserves a new lengthy contract. You can't simply decide to replace him since the new QB would have to deal with the same lack of protection and weapons. I have confidence in our new GM but it will take at least another two off seasons to upgrade the positions where we are lacking talent. If Jones went to a team like the 49ers, people would talk about him in a completely different way as he would be surrounded by a lot more talent. Jones is smart, hard-working, mobile, and has a good arm. Pretty good traits to start with in a starting QB.
What ifs are meaningless. If Slayton catches that ball or they convert the 3rd and 2 you have no idea what happens on the next play, it’s the fallacy of the pre determined outcome. What if the next play was a turnover?
We can only grade on the plays that actually happened
We only have 4 comeback wins this year - I'm guessing that was in spite of Jones because the staff CLEARLY doesn't trust him with the game on the line.
Then again, it wasn't too long ago we were regaled by these same bozos about how Jones has never been good at any level of play extending back to youth football.
I just wonder what motivates these takes, said with such confidence.
Oh here you are, insisting on being wrong as always. Slink away.
Some Giants' fans hate him and some fans love him. The bottom line is this: he is playing behind an offensive line that needs 3 new interior starters, he has no NFL caliber TE to throw to (although Bellinger could be a possible #2) and he needs 2-3 NFL-caliber WR's who are not on the team yet. Despite having no protection and no weapons, half the people here berate him as a QB and want him gone ? He might not be the QB for the Giants going forward but how could you decide now ?
Give him some protection and some weapons, then see. Also, I would not resign Barkley. Use the money for OL and WR's, then you can sign a few lesser backs. NFL is a passing league and you don't need a franchise RB anymore. If Jones would accept a one-year deal, and the Giants commit to upgrading the OL and WR's, we might find out if Jones deserves a new lengthy contract. You can't simply decide to replace him since the new QB would have to deal with the same lack of protection and weapons. I have confidence in our new GM but it will take at least another two off seasons to upgrade the positions where we are lacking talent. If Jones went to a team like the 49ers, people would talk about him in a completely different way as he would be surrounded by a lot more talent. Jones is smart, hard-working, mobile, and has a good arm. Pretty good traits to start with in a starting QB.
He’s slow to process and not instinctive. The sooner he’s gone the better, and I’m baffled by people who continue to insist his evaluation period needs to extend indefinitely.
What ifs are meaningless. If Slayton catches that ball or they convert the 3rd and 2 you have no idea what happens on the next play, it’s the fallacy of the pre determined outcome. What if the next play was a turnover?
We can only grade on the plays that actually happened
It’s not a fallacy of a predetermined outcome to say that his surrounding cast leaves a bit to be desired. If his surrounding cast is better, his stats would be better.
Now maybe that “better” still isn’t good enough. I’m not sold on the guy either, but fair is fair.
I’m not sold on the guy either but
It was about two plays that they didn’t execute. What if he doesn’t fumble early on? What if he makes a better throw down the sideline and it forced the ref to call the pass interference on Slayton? We can do this all day, it’s pointless.
RE: RE: RE: BBI overreacts like a spoiled kid high on sugar having his lolly taken
Jones wasn't why we lost today. Oh wait, we didn't lose at all! We missed a game winning field goal that could easily have gone in and tied. This hurts the Skins much more than it hurts us.
Glad gidie switched sides. Now we can really enjoy it when Schoen re-signs Jones in the offseason and BBI turns into even a bigger joke of bad takes.
The case for Jones has always included that he's got "x game winning drives' in his career.
He had three chances to do just that and never got out of the parking lot.
In a game in which many people here indicated was a "big game-maybe the biggest of his career yet" he did what?
He threw a strike to Slayton and he dropped it?
On first down. How'd the rest of the attempted game winning drive go?
drive go?
We can sit here all day and talk about other players not supporting him or disscting plays not made, Jones is out of time. There are 5 games left and what happens in December matters a lot more than October.
The NFL isn't fair and conditions aren't always going to be optimal. That offense was a sick and wounded animal in the second half. They had nothing. At no point were they a serious threat to put the game away and frankly they haven't done that at all this year.
There are 5 games left. 7-2 has turned to 7-5. Barkley carried them as far as he could. Is Jones going to do any carrying or is the expectation that Barkley needs to be everything and Jones just needs to show up for work to get the credit?
We only have 4 comeback wins this year - I'm guessing that was in spite of Jones because the staff CLEARLY doesn't trust him with the game on the line.
Then again, it wasn't too long ago we were regaled by these same bozos about how Jones has never been good at any level of play extending back to youth football.
I just wonder what motivates these takes, said with such confidence.
Oh here you are, insisting on being wrong as always. Slink away.
The last line is even funnier when you realize it’s coming from one of biggest Gettleman simps on this board.
It was about two plays that they didn’t execute. What if he doesn’t fumble early on? What if he makes a better throw down the sideline and it forced the ref to call the pass interference on Slayton? We can do this all day, it’s pointless.
The discussion is as usual about Daniel Jones and his future as a Giants player.
I know you think we should just let him go, I’ve read your posts on the topic. But if you let him go, someone has to play the position. I assume you want to also let Barkley go so that would mean we need:
QB1, RB1, WR1, WR2, Starting interior lineman or 2, MLB or 2, and a CB2. That seems like a lot to me. I wonder if we are not better served by re-signing Jones to something like 3/60, tagging Barkley, and using draft picks/FA to fill the other holes.
would be 9-2. They would have won this game and the home Dallas game. They are missing what he gives you in the blocking and getting open to extend drives.
Tagging Barkley still means we have about 8 other holes to fill. I think most everyone wants the Giants to win more consistently. We’re just discussing the best way to make that happen.
To be a fly in Joe Schoen’s office is the only way we’re going to find out prior to spring 2023.
I’d just like to know the name of a QB who finds himself in a similar situation as Daniel Jones, yet is producing at a level superior to him. Who’s this QB?
I’d just like to know the name of a QB who finds himself in a similar situation as Daniel Jones, yet is producing at a level superior to him. Who’s this QB?
There are 31 other teams in this league. Which one would want to better themselves by adding Daniel Jones to their starting roster? Who's that team?
I give Schoen and Daboll one shot at drafting a QB. Once they do they have 2 years to get to the playoffs. If they don't and DJ goes elsewhere and is successful, then it is time to change the guard again.
I’d just like to know the name of a QB who finds himself in a similar situation as Daniel Jones, yet is producing at a level superior to him. Who’s this QB?
There are 31 other teams in this league. Which one would want to better themselves by adding Daniel Jones to their starting roster? Who's that team?
We will find out this off season. Meanwhile, I really do not care what the answer is to that question. What I want to know (and you can be the first to answer this question), what free agent QB are we signing to upgrade the QB position? If your plan is to do it through the draft, which QB are we taking after the 10th pick in the draft?
I’d just like to know the name of a QB who finds himself in a similar situation as Daniel Jones, yet is producing at a level superior to him. Who’s this QB?
There are 31 other teams in this league. Which one would want to better themselves by adding Daniel Jones to their starting roster? Who's that team?
The answer to the question you asked is >0.
I’m still looking for the name of just 1 QB who people feel is productive in a situation similar to Daniel Jones. It’s simply not feasible to produce at a decent rate when the receivers are couch guys and the interior of the OL makes it impossible to run a normal passing offense. We’ve seen guys succeed at the highest levels without one or the other, but not both.
If you think the next QB is going to show up and turn chickenshit into chicken soup, you’ll be in threads complaining about that guy too.
I give Schoen and Daboll one shot at drafting a QB. Once they do they have 2 years to get to the playoffs. If they don't and DJ goes elsewhere and is successful, then it is time to change the guard again.
I think this is exactly where I am at as well. Barkley is a very nice running back. Maybe you tag him just to get another year. But I would pass long term. The OBJ talk is insanity.
I see Jones as a decent QB. His talent has won games for the Giants. Unfortunately, through lack of surrounding talent or lack of personal talent his throwing numbers are blah.
If the Giants make the playoffs, I think Jones will be back. In that scenario, the Giants will be picking 20th or later. They will be well out of range of a QB that Daboll and Schoen can hitch their careers too. I do not see them dumping Jones and crossing their fingers with a QB drafted outside of the top 10.
I give Schoen and Daboll one shot at drafting a QB. Once they do they have 2 years to get to the playoffs. If they don't and DJ goes elsewhere and is successful, then it is time to change the guard again.
I think this is exactly where I am at as well. Barkley is a very nice running back. Maybe you tag him just to get another year. But I would pass long term. The OBJ talk is insanity.
I see Jones as a decent QB. His talent has won games for the Giants. Unfortunately, through lack of surrounding talent or lack of personal talent his throwing numbers are blah.
If the Giants make the playoffs, I think Jones will be back. In that scenario, the Giants will be picking 20th or later. They will be well out of range of a QB that Daboll and Schoen can hitch their careers too. I do not see them dumping Jones and crossing their fingers with a QB drafted outside of the top 10.
In my view the defense has been the reason he's been able to win games. There isn't very much required of him. Only that he is able to execute one or two full drives a game. That is not a very high bar in my opinion. If he needs three he can't do it. Yesterday he gave up any advantage the Giants had in the first quarter -- turnover then a quickly stalled drive that led to 3 and 7 points -- he had to execute 1 full drive jus to mitigate that. Then he had one other full drive after that.
Weak!
RE: RE: RE: There are 31 other teams in the league.
I’d just like to know the name of a QB who finds himself in a similar situation as Daniel Jones, yet is producing at a level superior to him. Who’s this QB?
There are 31 other teams in this league. Which one would want to better themselves by adding Daniel Jones to their starting roster? Who's that team?
We will find out this off season. Meanwhile, I really do not care what the answer is to that question. What I want to know (and you can be the first to answer this question), what free agent QB are we signing to upgrade the QB position? If your plan is to do it through the draft, which QB are we taking after the 10th pick in the draft?
If you're leasing a car, and the end of the lease is approaching, you have a few options, right?
1) You can buy the car coming off lease. Your payments will increase substantially and your commitment to the car will be for a longer period of time, with some stretch of time near the start of that renewed commitment being inescapable while you are upside down on the finance note.
2) You can turn in that car and lease a new one. This will give you the option to keep your payments as low as they were previously, or as close as the market will reasonably allow. The new car might be a better fit for you than your previous car was, or it might not be, but the integrity of your budget will remain intact to go along with the possibility of the new car being a better fit for you at any price.
3) You can turn in that car and buy a different pre-owned car. The new (to you) car may or may not be an upgrade. The cost may or may not be higher than what it would have cost you to finance your old car. You might choose to upgrade the car since you're going to be paying more anyway. Or you might decide that you'd rather abide by your budget and go for a car that's less expensive but still gets you where you want to go - that way you can save up for the car you really want while still having that beater to get you where you need to go.
This idea that you need to identify an immediate upgrade over DJ in order to even consider parting ways with him is ridiculous. It's entirely reasonable, given DJ's impending FA status, to conclude that the implied increase in cost for DJ's next contract makes him a poor value, and that building the entirety of the roster becomes significantly more difficult if the determined valuation for DJ is exceeded.
For example, let's say DJ is seeking a multi-year contract with an AAV of ~$30M. And then let's consider an alternative, someone like Andy Dalton, who is seeking only $15M AAV, and for fewer years.
Now, in this example, I don't have to conclude that Dalton is an upgrade over Jones in order to conclude that Dalton makes more sense as a placeholder bridge QB, if my actual goal is to draft a rookie QB and develop him behind whichever veteran QB I deploy as my nominal starter for 2023.
The entire "well, who are you going to sign as an upgrade instead?" argument is how you end up signing Nate Solder to an albatross contract when you strike out on Andrew Norwell.
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
As I said on one of the other 15 threads - IMO Jones is a JAG
just another middling QB who manages games. He does more with his legs, but less with his arm, then others. I think we could easily replace him with one of 15 QBs and the results would be similar.
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
RE: As I said on one of the other 15 threads - IMO Jones is a JAG
just another middling QB who manages games. He does more with his legs, but less with his arm, then others. I think we could easily replace him with one of 15 QBs and the results would be similar.
More or less I agree. I don't see him at the top of the tier you outlined previously. He's more middle to bottom of the tier, imo. When he runs for 85+ we have a great shot to win. When he doesn't we have a toothless attack.
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Yep which tells me they may be ready to move on from him.
Mike White threw for 359 yards and made some big time throws
When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
I mean did you see Garrett Wilson yesterday. We don't have that. I watched Davante Adams and AJ Brown and Jamarr Chase and Jefferson and Diggs and so on make crazy catches and plays and all I can think is man our WRs are horrible. I mean think about it. Isaiah Hodges couldn't sniff the field for Buffalo and was released. He is our second best WR behind a WR that has a 15.6% drop rate!
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
actually at 19 seconds it was third and one. They ran JONES to pick up the first with no timeouts and had to spike it at 5 seconds to kick the field goal. It was a play calling disaster, not a reflection on Jones.
RE: Mike White threw for 359 yards and made some big time throws
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
RE: RE: Mike White threw for 359 yards and made some big time throws
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
RE: RE: RE: Mike White threw for 359 yards and made some big time throws
When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
Threw two INTs, and lost to a team that Jones beat. Or is that not part of the narrative?
Jones beat the Vikings?
Oops...for some reason I was thinking Packers. Still...do the two INTs and 26 incompletions during the game enter the equation? Or no, because it's not Jones who threw them?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Here is my only problem with Jones
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
So on the last drive in regulation, are you saying that Jones defied Dabs and Kafka and threw deep on his own?
It's not an act of defiance. Quarterbacks are allowed to change plays
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
So on the last drive in regulation, are you saying that Jones defied Dabs and Kafka and threw deep on his own?
pretty sure he was talking about the end of the first half. 10 yard, line 19 seconds.
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
does the coaching staff not trust him or does the coaching staff not trust our interior OL and skill position players?
RE: Mike White threw for 359 yards and made some big time throws
When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
Huh??????!!?!???
Mike White has played 6 games and has thrown either 2 or 4 interceptions in FOUR of them. (And as I was told on BBI, stats in games a QB loses, especially when they turn the ball over, doesn’t count.)
As someone else said, did you see the TD Garrett Wilson scored yesterday? C’mon people. I can accept people saying that they don’t believe Daniel Jones is good enough. But this horseshit where people pretend that coaching doesn’t matter or talent at the skill positions doesn’t matter is the dumbest shit I’ve ever read on BBI. Enough please.
RE: It's not an act of defiance. Quarterbacks are allowed to change plays
But we will never know what the original playcall is.
Time and time again we've heard Daboll encourage Jones "if you like the read take the shot."
Wait...so when he throws deep, it's "we will never know the playcall" but when he runs a QB draw before the half, it's because Dabs doesn't trust him? Just want to understand the rules of debate here.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Here is my only problem with Jones
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
So on the last drive in regulation, are you saying that Jones defied Dabs and Kafka and threw deep on his own?
pretty sure he was talking about the end of the first half. 10 yard, line 19 seconds.
Ron, so we're pretty sure he didn't trust him with 19 seconds in the first half when the game was not on the line, but then with a minute and a half left, he trusted him to throw deep twice and then for the sticks on 3rd and 10, despite Wash having 3 time outs?
I've been pretty consistent that I dont think the coaches trust him.
The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Mike White threw for 359 yards and made some big time throws
When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
Threw two INTs, and lost to a team that Jones beat. Or is that not part of the narrative?
Jones beat the Vikings?
Oops...for some reason I was thinking Packers. Still...do the two INTs and 26 incompletions during the game enter the equation? Or no, because it's not Jones who threw them?
I think they do matter, and I see your point, but Jones and White aren't supposed to be interchangeable, are they? Jones is a former #6 overall pick who has been a starter for his entire career since taking over for Eli early in his rookie campaign. White, meanwhile, was chosen 165 selections later in the same draft, and has been a backup QB for nearly his entire career, except for a few spot starts due to injury and/or ineffectiveness.
White will likely make less than $10M next season (and most likely less than $5M unless he somehow ends up in Matt Flynn territory). Jones will likely make more than $20M next season (and probably more like $30M+). If it's just about the supporting cast, aren't you still better off with White at the cheaper price if it allows you to go get the same receivers that White has?
Unless Jones is worth committing to as a bonafide QB1, I think there will be more economical options available as a bridge QB. Neither Jones nor White is elite. And Jones may be a superior QB to White, but he's not 3x better than White, especially if you've determined that neither is the long-term answer.
For the same price and same number of years, I'd absolutely choose DJ. For what I assume will be a very significant difference in price and length of term, I don't think it's so simple.
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
So on the last drive in regulation, are you saying that Jones defied Dabs and Kafka and threw deep on his own?
pretty sure he was talking about the end of the first half. 10 yard, line 19 seconds.
Ron, so we're pretty sure he didn't trust him with 19 seconds in the first half when the game was not on the line, but then with a minute and a half left, he trusted him to throw deep twice and then for the sticks on 3rd and 10, despite Wash having 3 time outs?
like the man said: "At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing. "
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Doesn't add up.
Now if you mean he doesn't trust any QB on the roster then your point is taken.
And what calls are you referring to?
If he too scared to let DJ throw a ball into the endzone with no TOs then he should have Taylor QBing the team.
But he doesn't.........
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Mike White threw for 359 yards and made some big time throws
When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
Threw two INTs, and lost to a team that Jones beat. Or is that not part of the narrative?
Jones beat the Vikings?
Oops...for some reason I was thinking Packers. Still...do the two INTs and 26 incompletions during the game enter the equation? Or no, because it's not Jones who threw them?
I think they do matter, and I see your point, but Jones and White aren't supposed to be interchangeable, are they? Jones is a former #6 overall pick who has been a starter for his entire career since taking over for Eli early in his rookie campaign. White, meanwhile, was chosen 165 selections later in the same draft, and has been a backup QB for nearly his entire career, except for a few spot starts due to injury and/or ineffectiveness.
White will likely make less than $10M next season (and most likely less than $5M unless he somehow ends up in Matt Flynn territory). Jones will likely make more than $20M next season (and probably more like $30M+). If it's just about the supporting cast, aren't you still better off with White at the cheaper price if it allows you to go get the same receivers that White has?
Unless Jones is worth committing to as a bonafide QB1, I think there will be more economical options available as a bridge QB. Neither Jones nor White is elite. And Jones may be a superior QB to White, but he's not 3x better than White, especially if you've determined that neither is the long-term answer.
For the same price and same number of years, I'd absolutely choose DJ. For what I assume will be a very significant difference in price and length of term, I don't think it's so simple.
I'm with you, GD...they do not have the same pedigree as far as draft status. I'm on record that I would take DJ back on a 2 year bridge deal around 15-20M a year. Maybe he will get a better offer. Maybe even from the Commanders. I do not believe there is a college QB we can draft with our draft capital that would be an improvement and there is no UFA better than Jones other than LJ and he's not coming to the Giants. I'm not sold on Jones, but I'm also not sold that he's not better than what his cast allows him to be. He's never had a good OL, and now his WRs and TEs are laughable. I really have no idea. I just don't blame him as much as others do for the team's current malaise.
RE: RE: Mike White threw for 359 yards and made some big time throws
Anyone against that, and figures he can't improve on what he's show this year with better surroundings is just simply, well, "over him".
DJ as a bridge may not make sense to DJ (or DJ's agent), or to some other team in the NFL willing to pay him to be more than just a bridge QB.
As a free agent, DJ gets a voice in whether or not he agrees that he's a bridge QB. And Schoen & Daboll get a voice in whether or not they agree with DJ's price tag.
Anyone against that, and figures he can't improve on what he's show this year with better surroundings is just simply, well, "over him".
DJ as a bridge may not make sense to DJ (or DJ's agent), or to some other team in the NFL willing to pay him to be more than just a bridge QB.
As a free agent, DJ gets a voice in whether or not he agrees that he's a bridge QB. And Schoen & Daboll get a voice in whether or not they agree with DJ's price tag.
Exactly right.
And as we all know, it takes one dumb team to screw up what would be the best plan.
The Giants are never going to win Super Bowls with Jones
We are better off picking a QB in the draft, who may have a lower floor than Jones but has a higher ceiling. And we don't need 3 years to figure out if he's the guy.
This nod to stability and tradition, that we must guarantee 3 to 5 years to every QB we draft is such an old school concept.
RE: The Giants are never going to win Super Bowls with Jones
We are better off picking a QB in the draft, who may have a lower floor than Jones but has a higher ceiling. And we don't need 3 years to figure out if he's the guy.
This nod to stability and tradition, that we must guarantee 3 to 5 years to every QB we draft is such an old school concept.
To go with your concept, who are you picking and what round are you thinking?
We are better off picking a QB in the draft, who may have a lower floor than Jones but has a higher ceiling. And we don't need 3 years to figure out if he's the guy.
This nod to stability and tradition, that we must guarantee 3 to 5 years to every QB we draft is such an old school concept.
To go with your concept, who are you picking and what round are you thinking?
don't expect an answer to this
RE: RE: I've been pretty consistent that I dont think the coaches trust him.
The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
RE: RE: RE: I've been pretty consistent that I dont think the coaches trust him.
The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
Yet you blame it all on Jones. Despite your lying eyes showing you he makes more plays then not with a cast of characters who bring almost nothing to the table at LG C RG WR1 WR2 WR3 TE1 TE2. So blame him. And then you can blame the next guy who comes in and has the same issues. What do you think Hebert's record would be on this team? Why is his team 6-6 and yet to beat a team with a winning record? Why isn't he "putting the team on his back" and just winning? He has infinitely better WRs and a game changing back. Why doesn't HE suck? Because he throws for more yards?
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Doesn't add up.
Now if you mean he doesn't trust any QB on the roster then your point is taken.
And what calls are you referring to?
If he too scared to let DJ throw a ball into the endzone with no TOs then he should have Taylor QBing the team.
But he doesn't.........
Most of the 4th quarter and overtime, Daboll (or Kafka with Daboll not overruling him) were painfully conservative. If it doesn't add up for you, I'm not sure what you're watching.
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Doesn't add up.
Now if you mean he doesn't trust any QB on the roster then your point is taken.
And what calls are you referring to?
If he too scared to let DJ throw a ball into the endzone with no TOs then he should have Taylor QBing the team.
But he doesn't.........
Most of the 4th quarter and overtime, Daboll (or Kafka with Daboll not overruling him) were painfully conservative. If it doesn't add up for you, I'm not sure what you're watching.
But JC, my contention is that although some of that may be on their comfort level with DJ, it at this point is more on the lack of consistent protection from interior OL, TEs, a good Washington DL (and overall defense) and the WR talent (lack thereof). It's hard to really know how much of that to assign specifically to comfort level with the QB. Man just for once I'd like to see what the QB looks like with a few games of better and more consistent overall pass pro and at least one legit WR. He has shown he can do it, as look at the game he and Toney were having against Dallas last year before he got hurt. I mean he has no Shep and now no Wandale, with our best receiver being someone (in Slayton) who just doesn't cut the mustard.
Jones is an average NFL QB with some running ability. He's a game manager, not a game changer. Occasionally, he'll put up an eye catching performance, surrounded by a dozen more very ordinary ones.
In the end, this is what he has to work with to earn an extension. And, they need to make a decision based off of it.
Perhaps, the leadership will agree with you and try to reach a short-term deal with him to continue down this path.
Based on what I've seen from Jones over four seasons, it's time to move on. Jones isn't some great mystery waiting to unfold for us. I'd rather spend the $20M or $30M elsewhere and I'd find drafting another QB.
As to whom, I've given names and when scouting ramps up I'll share more. But, I have no fear about letting Jones go. 2023 Giants will look different, as will 2024. Change is inevitable
Gotcha. As always, I respect your viewpoints more than many here.... lol. I agree actually as far as I have no ties specifically to keeping him. I'm good with whatever Schoen and Daboll decide to do, I'll root for the next guy up. But personally, I feel like the guy does a lot with very little. I would love to see what he could do with a more complete roster. I love Saquon, but I'd keep Jones before I kept Saquon if it came down to it. Give him at least one + level talent level WR and keep building the interior of the OL.
I really do think it's helpful to look at Jones through the lens of an unrestricted free agent, which is what he is.
And put him in the bucket with the other quarterbacks who will be free agents.
I'm assuming we all agree these things are true:
- The QB has never performed at a near pro-bowl level
- The QB has never played with a good pass protecting line
- The QB has never played with good pass targets
- The QB has played with an excellent running back
- The QB has played under a very bad, very good, and very average system
I really do think it's helpful to look at Jones through the lens of an unrestricted free agent, which is what he is.
And put him in the bucket with the other quarterbacks who will be free agents.
I'm assuming we all agree these things are true:
- The QB has never performed at a near pro-bowl level
- The QB has never played with a good pass protecting line
- The QB has never played with good pass targets
- The QB has played with an excellent running back
- The QB has played under a very bad, very good, and very average system
In the abstract, what would you pay this QB?
You simply cannot project a level of performance to a QB who has never displayed that level going into year 5, regardless of context. This isn't a factory building widgets, you cannot assume a scale up will be successful. It is not clear at all that Jones has the talent to scale up his production.
And if we pay Jones assuming he can scale up his production, well that's bad business, and we deserve what we get, making such assumptions.
I really do think it's helpful to look at Jones through the lens of an unrestricted free agent, which is what he is.
And put him in the bucket with the other quarterbacks who will be free agents.
I'm assuming we all agree these things are true:
- The QB has never performed at a near pro-bowl level
- The QB has never played with a good pass protecting line
- The QB has never played with good pass targets
- The QB has played with an excellent running back
- The QB has played under a very bad, very good, and very average system
In the abstract, what would you pay this QB?
You simply cannot project a level of performance to a QB who has never displayed that level going into year 5, regardless of context. This isn't a factory building widgets, you cannot assume a scale up will be successful. It is not clear at all that Jones has the talent to scale up his production.
And if we pay Jones assuming he can scale up his production, well that's bad business, and we deserve what we get, making such assumptions.
he's left a lot of throws and plays on the field. Basically, if you watched a game with a football coach, and they walked you through as they chart a Jones performance, there would be consistent missed open throws, too slow to process a play and too quick taking the checkdown, lost pass rush feel in the pocket, bad RPO reads, etc. On almost any pass play in football there's an open receiver to be found, and Jones often misses it unless it's an easy one. Some of it is the lack of talent around him, some is his average skillset and passer instincts. He's a good runner but a very average passer. We're so starved for a winner we forget what it looks like after awhile, and I wouldn't hitch the wagon at $20M+ AAV to him. YMMV.
I really do think it's helpful to look at Jones through the lens of an unrestricted free agent, which is what he is.
And put him in the bucket with the other quarterbacks who will be free agents.
I'm assuming we all agree these things are true:
- The QB has never performed at a near pro-bowl level
- The QB has never played with a good pass protecting line
- The QB has never played with good pass targets
- The QB has played with an excellent running back
- The QB has played under a very bad, very good, and very average system
In the abstract, what would you pay this QB?
You simply cannot project a level of performance to a QB who has never displayed that level going into year 5, regardless of context. This isn't a factory building widgets, you cannot assume a scale up will be successful. It is not clear at all that Jones has the talent to scale up his production.
And if we pay Jones assuming he can scale up his production, well that's bad business, and we deserve what we get, making such assumptions.
^ Is that a response to the question I posed?
I think you're asking the wrong question. I don't want Jones to be our QB at any price. The time we are wasting with him is more valuable than the dollars we might pay him. Sign me up for any 1st, 2nd or 3rd round QB who might have a higher ceiling.
Why are we talking about paying Jones anything. He is a limited QB with a limited ceiling. The name of the game is to win Super Bowls, not to get the best price on a limited QB.
... now that's the million $$ question of course. It's going to be really interesting to see who takes a chance on him if not the Giants.... and of course, what he ultimately signs for. Honestly as someone else mentioned in this thread (or one of the million others) I'm just so beyond tired of debating about the guy at this point... lol
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Doesn't add up.
Now if you mean he doesn't trust any QB on the roster then your point is taken.
And what calls are you referring to?
If he too scared to let DJ throw a ball into the endzone with no TOs then he should have Taylor QBing the team.
But he doesn't.........
Most of the 4th quarter and overtime, Daboll (or Kafka with Daboll not overruling him) were painfully conservative. If it doesn't add up for you, I'm not sure what you're watching.
So why not put Taylor in?
He's a vet QB who has taken a team to the playoffs?
I mean, is that the way you'd coach? Play the guy you don't trust?
he's left a lot of throws and plays on the field. Basically, if you watched a game with a football coach, and they walked you through as they chart a Jones performance, there would be consistent missed open throws, too slow to process a play and too quick taking the checkdown, lost pass rush feel in the pocket, bad RPO reads, etc. On almost any pass play in football there's an open receiver to be found, and Jones often misses it unless it's an easy one. Some of it is the lack of talent around him, some is his average skillset and passer instincts. He's a good runner but a very average passer. We're so starved for a winner we forget what it looks like after awhile, and I wouldn't hitch the wagon at $20M+ AAV to him. YMMV.
And you haven't even included that Jones doesn't really know what "open" is in the NFL. If you have a half of a step, you are open in the NFL. Occasionally, Jones will attempt and hit that throw, but usually he won't take the chance.
You play the QB you think represents your best chance to win. Playing Jones instead of Taylor isn't a silver bullet, as we've seen. I can tell you watching games this season, the offense is being called in a very, very specific fashion to protect Jones and the offense from its weaknesses. It's normal. But, given Jones' contract situation with a brand new regime, he needs to prove his worth and this is how the coaches have determined he's best used. Anyone who understands football can see they're calling a limited, basic offense. The training wheels remain on, the guide rails are in place. I sat in the stands yesterday and watched them dink and dunk within 10 yards of the LOS, probing the edges of the defense rather than attack over the middle. They did try to go over the top a couple times, with some success. But, after awhile you have to see things for what they are. Giants have a talent dilemma at QB right now, they've got two bridge veterans ...
he's left a lot of throws and plays on the field. Basically, if you watched a game with a football coach, and they walked you through as they chart a Jones performance, there would be consistent missed open throws, too slow to process a play and too quick taking the checkdown, lost pass rush feel in the pocket, bad RPO reads, etc. On almost any pass play in football there's an open receiver to be found, and Jones often misses it unless it's an easy one. Some of it is the lack of talent around him, some is his average skillset and passer instincts. He's a good runner but a very average passer. We're so starved for a winner we forget what it looks like after awhile, and I wouldn't hitch the wagon at $20M+ AAV to him. YMMV.
And you haven't even included that Jones doesn't really know what "open" is in the NFL. If you have a half of a step, you are open in the NFL. Occasionally, Jones will attempt and hit that throw, but usually he won't take the chance.
True. My friend asked me where are the slants, the digs, the sideline throws. I told him they're very likely avoiding them because of the turnover fear. So they try to lean on the run game, use small ball passing offense, move the chains, possess the football, try to keep the clock and field position in their favor. Again, partly due to personnel and partly due to using the QB to his strengths.
You play the QB you think represents your best chance to win. Playing Jones instead of Taylor isn't a silver bullet, as we've seen. I can tell you watching games this season, the offense is being called in a very, very specific fashion to protect Jones and the offense from its weaknesses. It's normal. But, given Jones' contract situation with a brand new regime, he needs to prove his worth and this is how the coaches have determined he's best used. Anyone who understands football can see they're calling a limited, basic offense. The training wheels remain on, the guide rails are in place. I sat in the stands yesterday and watched them dink and dunk within 10 yards of the LOS, probing the edges of the defense rather than attack over the middle. They did try to go over the top a couple times, with some success. But, after awhile you have to see things for what they are. Giants have a talent dilemma at QB right now, they've got two bridge veterans ...
I was there too.
That's a long ramble that I think translates that we are still having issues with pass blocking and getting guys open, hence the play calling we both witnessed.
They are protecting Jones from getting blown up, rather than not trusting his abilities.
You are entitled to your opinion, and it's one I do not agree with. What I wrote is not rambling, it's fact. And I stated it's part related to talent, and part protecting Jones et al from their weaknesses.
You are entitled to your opinion, and it's one I do not agree with. What I wrote is not rambling, it's fact. And I stated it's part related to talent, and part protecting Jones et al from their weaknesses.
Yours as well, but again to me, DJ is a strength (relatively speaking) on this team versus what other guys are doing out there.
He's no stud, but worth bridging if the money is right which I am not sure happens.
In fact, I'm more on spending the money on DJ and letting Barkley walk.
Barkley is what makes the offense go in 2022. When he's productive, it opens it up for the others. Going forward, they need figure out if he's core or they prefer a different design for 2023 and beyond.
I'd agree Jones is probably a better bridge option than Taylor at this point, but they're both still bridge options imv. Don't be afraid to aim higher and pull the trigger, even if it's a draft pick. Staying with the ugly girl because you don't want to be alone sucks.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I've been pretty consistent that I dont think the coaches trust him.
The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
Yet you blame it all on Jones. Despite your lying eyes showing you he makes more plays then not with a cast of characters who bring almost nothing to the table at LG C RG WR1 WR2 WR3 TE1 TE2. So blame him. And then you can blame the next guy who comes in and has the same issues. What do you think Hebert's record would be on this team? Why is his team 6-6 and yet to beat a team with a winning record? Why isn't he "putting the team on his back" and just winning? He has infinitely better WRs and a game changing back. Why doesn't HE suck? Because he throws for more yards?
Herbert looks less himself this year because those infinitely better WRs are consistently hurt. And yet, no one is questioning his ability to have a future in the NFL as a starter, because the skills are visible and the process that would lead to success if they had capable healthy WRs is there even if the results are not. This is not the case with Jones.
You are mad at things that other people say, not with me.
As for Jones, I don't blame him for anything. It's not his fault he was overdrafted and doesn't have a high end set of skills. I do blame fans who have witnessed good QB play even without good supporting talent before. Many of you have seen it and know what it looks like, but many of you are either entrenched in wanting to be right or entrenched in the emotion of wanting to hold on to what looks like hope and potential at QB. "If he just had X, he might be very good"
That ship has sailed. Blame the Giants for mismanagement. We will probably never know how good he could have been if they hadn't wasted 4 years with instability and ineptitude. Unfortunately that is the story of many 1st round QBs.
Barkley is what makes the offense go in 2022. When he's productive, it opens it up for the others. Going forward, they need figure out if he's core or they prefer a different design for 2023 and beyond.
I'd agree Jones is probably a better bridge option than Taylor at this point, but they're both still bridge options imv. Don't be afraid to aim higher and pull the trigger, even if it's a draft pick. Staying with the ugly girl because you don't want to be alone sucks.
I agree with DJ being the better bridge, hence my desired option.
Jones is Alex Smith 2.0 as others have termed. That only takes you so far.
However, concerning Barkley, there are good RBs to be had all over the country. I'm not sure I want to invest anymore than one more season in him - and start searching for his replacement pronto.
Barkley makes it go because when he's running it well, that opens things up - that's football 101. If you can run the ball the entire playbook is open.
As well as Barkley has done this season (mostly first half), I'm dissapointed in his involvement in the passing game (again - protecting DJ) and I just think you can get a near comparable player and a huge discount (ie the draft).
I'm disappointed in both players, as well as management over the past ten years and more. But, I'm only hanging onto parts and people who fit the solution. A case can be made rather easily to move on from both players, especially when you develop a cap blueprint and all the defensive players who look like core coming up for new contracts.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I've been pretty consistent that I dont think the coaches trust him.
The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
Yet you blame it all on Jones. Despite your lying eyes showing you he makes more plays then not with a cast of characters who bring almost nothing to the table at LG C RG WR1 WR2 WR3 TE1 TE2. So blame him. And then you can blame the next guy who comes in and has the same issues. What do you think Hebert's record would be on this team? Why is his team 6-6 and yet to beat a team with a winning record? Why isn't he "putting the team on his back" and just winning? He has infinitely better WRs and a game changing back. Why doesn't HE suck? Because he throws for more yards?
Herbert looks less himself this year because those infinitely better WRs are consistently hurt. And yet, no one is questioning his ability to have a future in the NFL as a starter, because the skills are visible and the process that would lead to success if they had capable healthy WRs is there even if the results are not. This is not the case with Jones.
You are mad at things that other people say, not with me.
As for Jones, I don't blame him for anything. It's not his fault he was overdrafted and doesn't have a high end set of skills. I do blame fans who have witnessed good QB play even without good supporting talent before. Many of you have seen it and know what it looks like, but many of you are either entrenched in wanting to be right or entrenched in the emotion of wanting to hold on to what looks like hope and potential at QB. "If he just had X, he might be very good"
That ship has sailed. Blame the Giants for mismanagement. We will probably never know how good he could have been if they hadn't wasted 4 years with instability and ineptitude. Unfortunately that is the story of many 1st round QBs.
T...I'm not mad about anything. I'm on record saying I just don't know. I've been watching the Giants since the days of Norm Snead and earlier. Ive seen a lot of good and bad QB play. I remember when Simms was almost jettisoned for many of the same reasons some want to jettison Jones. I'm not sold on Jones. But I'm still intrigued. It's hard to pinpoint. He very well may be exactly what the detractors say he is. I know it sounds like excuses. That's not where I am. I'm not excusing any of his faults..which he has. But we can agree there are reasons he hasn't been able to reach any potential that may be there, which we've also glimpsed. I don't know the answer. Which is why, with the roster so lacking, I don't think a QB change will reult in changing the calculus. A bridge deal, if it can be done, seems to me to be the logical choice as the roster is rebuilt. I very well could be wrong, but I'm not angry or mad. The team will take a step back next year, maybe even if Jones stays. But i don't see the potential for drafting a difference maker at QB and would rather put resources in the lines, LB, and WR. Just my thought process on the current situation. Peace bro, I'm just stating my opinion.
The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
Yet you blame it all on Jones. Despite your lying eyes showing you he makes more plays then not with a cast of characters who bring almost nothing to the table at LG C RG WR1 WR2 WR3 TE1 TE2. So blame him. And then you can blame the next guy who comes in and has the same issues. What do you think Hebert's record would be on this team? Why is his team 6-6 and yet to beat a team with a winning record? Why isn't he "putting the team on his back" and just winning? He has infinitely better WRs and a game changing back. Why doesn't HE suck? Because he throws for more yards?
Herbert looks less himself this year because those infinitely better WRs are consistently hurt. And yet, no one is questioning his ability to have a future in the NFL as a starter, because the skills are visible and the process that would lead to success if they had capable healthy WRs is there even if the results are not. This is not the case with Jones.
You are mad at things that other people say, not with me.
As for Jones, I don't blame him for anything. It's not his fault he was overdrafted and doesn't have a high end set of skills. I do blame fans who have witnessed good QB play even without good supporting talent before. Many of you have seen it and know what it looks like, but many of you are either entrenched in wanting to be right or entrenched in the emotion of wanting to hold on to what looks like hope and potential at QB. "If he just had X, he might be very good"
That ship has sailed. Blame the Giants for mismanagement. We will probably never know how good he could have been if they hadn't wasted 4 years with instability and ineptitude. Unfortunately that is the story of many 1st round QBs.
T...I'm not mad about anything. I'm on record saying I just don't know. I've been watching the Giants since the days of Norm Snead and earlier. Ive seen a lot of good and bad QB play. I remember when Simms was almost jettisoned for many of the same reasons some want to jettison Jones. I'm not sold on Jones. But I'm still intrigued. It's hard to pinpoint. He very well may be exactly what the detractors say he is. I know it sounds like excuses. That's not where I am. I'm not excusing any of his faults..which he has. But we can agree there are reasons he hasn't been able to reach any potential that may be there, which we've also glimpsed. I don't know the answer. Which is why, with the roster so lacking, I don't think a QB change will reult in changing the calculus. A bridge deal, if it can be done, seems to me to be the logical choice as the roster is rebuilt. I very well could be wrong, but I'm not angry or mad. The team will take a step back next year, maybe even if Jones stays. But i don't see the potential for drafting a difference maker at QB and would rather put resources in the lines, LB, and WR. Just my thought process on the current situation. Peace bro, I'm just stating my opinion.
This is the best post on this entire thread. The OP has become insufferable. I'll prob get banned now for that. It's been real, BBI. lol
T...I'm not mad about anything. I'm on record saying I just don't know. I've been watching the Giants since the days of Norm Snead and earlier. Ive seen a lot of good and bad QB play. I remember when Simms was almost jettisoned for many of the same reasons some want to jettison Jones. I'm not sold on Jones. But I'm still intrigued. It's hard to pinpoint. He very well may be exactly what the detractors say he is. I know it sounds like excuses. That's not where I am. I'm not excusing any of his faults..which he has. But we can agree there are reasons he hasn't been able to reach any potential that may be there, which we've also glimpsed. I don't know the answer. Which is why, with the roster so lacking, I don't think a QB change will reult in changing the calculus. A bridge deal, if it can be done, seems to me to be the logical choice as the roster is rebuilt. I very well could be wrong, but I'm not angry or mad. The team will take a step back next year, maybe even if Jones stays. But i don't see the potential for drafting a difference maker at QB and would rather put resources in the lines, LB, and WR. Just my thought process on the current situation. Peace bro, I'm just stating my opinion.
Rob, I agree with everything except that the Giants would take a step back next year even with Jones. I think him and the team will be better with a better cast around him. Good enough? IDK
Jones had chances to win it and did not.
Your QB has to win it. That simple.
Well, he did have the lost fumble and 3 swings at a GW drive.
He wasn't bad but he wasn't what they needed today.
Jones had chances to win it and did not.
Your QB has to win it. That simple.
You gotta let him win it….you can’t call fucking qb draws
How about giving the OC some shit for a terrible start to the calls on four second half series in a row?
I just don’t understand the hate for the guy. At all.
Well, in the most important game of his career, he started it out fumbling the ball and turning it over on the first drive, giving the ball to Washington in Giants territory.
When game time is on the line in the 4th Quarter -- he bumbles the play.
I don't think that's what a franchise championship QB does when the pressure is on.
I was going to say the same. :)
Different story if he doesn’t drop that. Or no taunting penalty. Or Richie James doesn’t get confused and run into Barkley. Lots of things. Washington tied the game, too.
“If he only had better WR’s…”
It’s his 4th year. Go ahead and pay him $20M plus per year and see how it goes.
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One really bad series where Slayton dropped a ball that would have gotten him into almost FG range.
Well, in the most important game of his career, he started it out fumbling the ball and turning it over on the first drive, giving the ball to Washington in Giants territory.
When game time is on the line in the 4th Quarter -- he bumbles the play.
I don't think that's what a franchise championship QB does when the pressure is on.
You think HE made the mistake when James and Barkley ran into each other?????
Slaton dropping the deep ball. Jones fault.
Interior line turnstyling. Jones fault.
DEF giving up a 90 yard game tying TD drive in the closing minute. Jones fault.
In what way? He wasn’t bad but the fumble handed Washington points early, and they couldn’t get anything going in the second half in nearly two and a half quarters.
The only reason they were even able to tie was because of the defense
So the pass to Slayton is his fault?
Wow.. ok.
.
Hes a running QB. He just looks and acts the way a lot of fans like their QBs to look and act so he has a fan club and an excuse factory.
And then blaming him for both Barkley and James screwing up running into another.
Throwing two deep balls on the final drive of regulation...one dropped...one at least illegal contact if not PI...wasn't putting the game in Jones hands? Interesting.
But just not enough good things to make the case that he's a long-term solution.
Personally, I wish Kafka had run him even more. It seemed even when the Commandeers spied, Jones still made plays.
Who is saying he deserves top dollar?
Slaton dropping the deep ball. Jones fault.
Interior line turnstyling. Jones fault.
DEF giving up a 90 yard game tying TD drive in the closing minute. Jones fault.
How much are you willing to pay DJ, and for how long?
Without that, your excuses are tired.
It helps when people suck his dick.
I don't want him on the Giants - we need a real QB
He's never gonna take the Giants to the promised land
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Ron Rivera put the game in the hands of his UDFA QB and he delivered. Kafka and Daboll wouldn’t be caught dead doing the same with Jones. That’s all you need to know. Don’t want to hear about OLs or receivers, Jones is a starter for his legs only. He’s not adequate in any other area. Take the last play. MY desperately needed 5 more yards. He knew Washington would bring pressure, yet when he took the snap he had no clue and threw the ball away in desperation. Gano’s FG would have been good from 53. Seen all I have to and I bet they have too.
Throwing two deep balls on the final drive of regulation...one dropped...one at least illegal contact if not PI...wasn't putting the game in Jones hands? Interesting.
There wasn’t illegal contact on that play. If it was then they shouldn’t have picked up the flag near the goaline with Mclaurin
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That big pass?
I was going to say the same. :)
Different story if he doesn’t drop that. Or no taunting penalty. Or Richie James doesn’t get confused and run into Barkley. Lots of things. Washington tied the game, too.
Yeah but It’s DJ’s fault. Lol.
Look I’m not a DJ by all means defender but to put thi tie on him is ridiculous. He’d be about 8th -9th down my list of reasons and just trying to be fair.
As Gisele would say he can’t throw them and catch them too! Also didn’t see him flexing at anyone or missing any tackles while playing DB
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James playing Kestone Kop. Jones fault.
Slaton dropping the deep ball. Jones fault.
Interior line turnstyling. Jones fault.
DEF giving up a 90 yard game tying TD drive in the closing minute. Jones fault.
How much are you willing to pay DJ, and for how long?
Without that, your excuses are tired.
I'm on record...2 years, 25 to 30 mil bridge deal
Terps is/was a lunatic -- him leaving had nothing to do with his opinion -- it had to do with his craziness
His wheels are good though. But an injury risk each season
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In comment 15932279 Dave on the UWS said:
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Ron Rivera put the game in the hands of his UDFA QB and he delivered. Kafka and Daboll wouldn’t be caught dead doing the same with Jones. That’s all you need to know. Don’t want to hear about OLs or receivers, Jones is a starter for his legs only. He’s not adequate in any other area. Take the last play. MY desperately needed 5 more yards. He knew Washington would bring pressure, yet when he took the snap he had no clue and threw the ball away in desperation. Gano’s FG would have been good from 53. Seen all I have to and I bet they have too.
Throwing two deep balls on the final drive of regulation...one dropped...one at least illegal contact if not PI...wasn't putting the game in Jones hands? Interesting.
There wasn’t illegal contact on that play. If it was then they shouldn’t have picked up the flag near the goaline with Mclaurin
You're right. But Slayton has to make a better play at the ball and he gets a PI flag. Again...a better WR is counted on to do more than run fast and try to catch ball.
OL (Interior).
WRs.
Jones.
But I still think the coaches have deliberately limited the passing offense at least partially because of deficiencies they see in Jones in that area. My guess is he'll want more than what the Giants are willing to pay, but let's see what happens the rest of the year.
It's not enough to not make mistakes, though he did certainly make some mistakes, he doesn't have the ability to consistently make enough plays to help us become a more dominant team. He's meh.
What are you gonna do? Throw mud at me. I AM MUD!
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That big pass?
I was going to say the same. :)
Different story if he doesn’t drop that. Or no taunting penalty. Or Richie James doesn’t get confused and run into Barkley. Lots of things. Washington tied the game, too.
Whys the fumble left out?
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James playing Kestone Kop. Jones fault.
Slaton dropping the deep ball. Jones fault.
Interior line turnstyling. Jones fault.
DEF giving up a 90 yard game tying TD drive in the closing minute. Jones fault.
How much are you willing to pay DJ, and for how long?
Without that, your excuses are tired.
Who is talking about future $$? This is about the game today and blaming him.
OL (Interior).
WRs.
Jones.
But I still think the coaches have deliberately limited the passing offense at least partially because of deficiencies they see in Jones in that area. My guess is he'll want more than what the Giants are willing to pay, but let's see what happens the rest of the year.
I seriously have never heard of an offense that was scripted as limited because of the WRs. Never. And I have been watching football for 50 years. It's always the QB. And this is two regimes in a row that have handled Jones this way. Some folks refuse to accept reality.
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In comment 15932279 Dave on the UWS said:
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Ron Rivera put the game in the hands of his UDFA QB and he delivered. Kafka and Daboll wouldn’t be caught dead doing the same with Jones. That’s all you need to know. Don’t want to hear about OLs or receivers, Jones is a starter for his legs only. He’s not adequate in any other area. Take the last play. MY desperately needed 5 more yards. He knew Washington would bring pressure, yet when he took the snap he had no clue and threw the ball away in desperation. Gano’s FG would have been good from 53. Seen all I have to and I bet they have too.
Throwing two deep balls on the final drive of regulation...one dropped...one at least illegal contact if not PI...wasn't putting the game in Jones hands? Interesting.
There wasn’t illegal contact on that play. If it was then they shouldn’t have picked up the flag near the goaline with Mclaurin
Ok, I'll concede the point. What about the drop the play before? And mybother point remains. He said they wouldn't put the ball in Jones hands to win the game. What say you?
If you can't evaluate a guy into his 4th season, you have your evaluation. He isn't the guy a lot of people want him to be.
If you are not happy here -- you can leave too
We know what Slayton is, and he’s not the one up for a big contract.
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the passing offense so limited because they don't trust Jones, or because of our subpar WRs and turnstile OL? It's probably a little of both. I would rank them as follows, from most to least worst:
OL (Interior).
WRs.
Jones.
But I still think the coaches have deliberately limited the passing offense at least partially because of deficiencies they see in Jones in that area. My guess is he'll want more than what the Giants are willing to pay, but let's see what happens the rest of the year.
I seriously have never heard of an offense that was scripted as limited because of the WRs. Never. And I have been watching football for 50 years. It's always the QB. And this is two regimes in a row that have handled Jones this way. Some folks refuse to accept reality.
If you watch the games you've already seen it this year. Chicago does the same thing....except they actually have better WRs than we do.
Yet you're here
We know what Slayton is, and he’s not the one up for a big contract.
That's the point. We know what Slayton is. A guy who barely hangs on to an NFL roster. Probably a little better than that. This is our BEST WR. When we needed to pass we went to him and we got drops.
Hes a running QB. He just looks and acts the way a lot of fans like their QBs to look and act so he has a fan club and an excuse factory.
Exactly. Take away his running, and he's a terrible starting QB. As it stands, he's average at best.
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I learned a lot.
Yet you're here
I’m trying to learn something, so far, no luck, just dumb posts.
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In comment 15932292 rnargi said:
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James playing Kestone Kop. Jones fault.
Slaton dropping the deep ball. Jones fault.
Interior line turnstyling. Jones fault.
DEF giving up a 90 yard game tying TD drive in the closing minute. Jones fault.
How much are you willing to pay DJ, and for how long?
Without that, your excuses are tired.
I'm on record...2 years, 25 to 30 mil bridge deal
And why's he taking that deal?
If he's as good as everyone who wants to keep him thinks he is, he's getting a better offer than that.
If that's the best offer he receives then he's not that good and JS should look to move on
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In comment 15932322 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15932292 rnargi said:
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James playing Kestone Kop. Jones fault.
Slaton dropping the deep ball. Jones fault.
Interior line turnstyling. Jones fault.
DEF giving up a 90 yard game tying TD drive in the closing minute. Jones fault.
How much are you willing to pay DJ, and for how long?
Without that, your excuses are tired.
I'm on record...2 years, 25 to 30 mil bridge deal
And why's he taking that deal?
If he's as good as everyone who wants to keep him thinks he is, he's getting a better offer than that.
If that's the best offer he receives then he's not that good and JS should look to move on
No argument here. I don't think he can get more than that, and I dont believe there is an alternative better than him right now. Just my opinion.
No argument here. I don't think he can get more than that, and I dont believe there is an alternative better than him right now. Just my opinion.
unfortunately this may be true -- but I really hope this FO can figure out a way to bring a better QB on board
I don't want him on the Giants - we need a real QB
So who do you think we're be able to gonna get? I read Jimmy G may have had a knee today, what would take him off the table
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Had 4 opportunities and all the Giants need was a FG. 136 yards passing through 4 quarters is pathetic also! If this is our offense with DJ going forward, let him walk!
How about giving the OC some shit for a terrible start to the calls on four second half series in a row?
WRs, OLine, Barkley, the defense, and now the OC? At some point this has to stop. DJ is average and incapable of carrying an offense, even when defenses are scheming to stop Barkley.
It's like the people who die defending Jones don't care about scoring points...it's the same shit every week.
It fell off track back in July and August.
I see it the same way. I would love to know if Jones comes up short in making adjustments at the LOS to get to a better play and/or better protection.
It seems to me he has limitations in that department.
Either you want to evaluate the QB or not.
Lol.
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A pretty good runner. An adequate game manager. Requires a very, very simplified offense to complete a bunch of short passes. If you design an offense around his weaknesses, he can keep you in games against mediocre teams.
Hes a running QB. He just looks and acts the way a lot of fans like their QBs to look and act so he has a fan club and an excuse factory.
Exactly. Take away his running, and he's a terrible starting QB. As it stands, he's average at best.
Allen, Mahommes, Fields, Hurts- none of them would be the same if you took away their running. Or their receivers.
Because it's obviously not going to happen this year. The Anti-DJ contingent is clearly desperate. They went into this year assuming the team would struggle to win six games, and the decision to move on from Jones would be easy. Instead, he's not only made it a conversation, but to this point, on his own merits has all but ended it. All his haters can do now is flail and try to hammer every seeming mistake to make the opposing argument seem self-evident. But we see you.
I would re-sign him to a low-medium contract, and keep an eye out for a replacement.
That said, the play calling didn't do him any favors. Color me not impressed with Kafka.
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In comment 15932366 UConn4523 said:
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I learned a lot.
Yet you're here
I’m trying to learn something, so far, no luck, just dumb posts.
You're in the wrong place if you want to learn something. That's on you.
I’m good with moving on. But creating a thread to proclaim your stance is about as pointless as it gets.
Let Jones test the market and see what happens. There’s a price for keeping him, but for me it’s more about the years. I’d love a 2 year deal which would allow us to draft someone high in either 2023 or 2024.
That's what I'm wondering
I'm sorry but today the o line was bad today tons of pressure up the middle and Barkley was hit multiple times in the backfield.
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Other than the 1st Dallas game, they look like a normal NFL OL. Jones gets pressured sometimes- so does every other QB
I'm sorry but today the o line was bad today tons of pressure up the middle and Barkley was hit multiple times in the backfield.
Exactly. I thought their early pass protection issues made them WAY too conservative.
Terps was on the Pickett/Willis train. I’d rather have Jones.
There weren’t great alternatives last year, and we have to have a path to a QB in the upcoming draft and free agency. We’ll see!
Putting this tie on Jones is a head scratcher.
All pro?
True. That was so fucking idiotic.
Really sucked, but the Giants failure to secure a win was not because of Daniel Jones’ play. The play calling in general and the Giants o-line** in particular are more at fault. Way more.
**can no longer run block
Either you want to evaluate the QB or not.
Have you asked yourself why? Coaches who work with DJ on a daily basis and know his limitations make those calls. DJ is the reason this offense is so dumbed-down.
Where was he suppose to throw to and was the Washington D laying down so he can make the throw?
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I'm sure you're a nice guy, appreciate you being a mod and a loyal Giants fan. But, you don't anything insightful. Glad you're done with Jones. You can relax now.
Lol.
As if you’re value add.
Awful OP and you in the mix is the real LoL.
That’s all we need to know?? You didn’t tell us anything.
You can't pay them big money to not get it done.
So, who are we going to sign this off season? Who is taking us to "the promised land"?
I want to know because there are many teams that need a QB like that. We will need to get a jump on it.
If it is not a free agent and instead, someone in the draft, then who is it? If that guy is going to go in the top 10, then we need to be sure that we are able to trade up that far.
We have to make a decision on Jones before the draft... correct?
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One really bad series where Slayton dropped a ball that would have gotten him into almost FG range.
Well, in the most important game of his career, he started it out fumbling the ball and turning it over on the first drive, giving the ball to Washington in Giants territory.
When game time is on the line in the 4th Quarter -- he bumbles the play.
I don't think that's what a franchise championship QB does when the pressure is on.
Any skill guy he has is instantly the Giants best player on offense.
Aiyuk would be the Giants #1 with ease. And we see Cows win with Cooper Rush.
QB matters of course, and we see guys like Hurts who have the best OL in the league and a top WR tandem.
So 2 options take each other out and Daniel Jones is at fault? Huh?
I saw a WR screen to Deebo in which he should’ve been tackled 4 yards behind the LOS, but he broke the tackle and turned it into a 7 yard gain. Talent matters.
As for “trust”, there have been plenty of times they’ve trusted him (third and longs, for example) and other times where they just appear to give up. Even if they “trusted” Jones, which is up for debate, would you trust anyone else on the offense not wearing #26?
You can't pay them big money to not get it done.
Heinicke looked better than Jones.
Robinson looked better than Barkley.
The good news is I think the staff feels that way. Between not picking up 5th year option and not really trusting him in big spots, I think they're doing the best they can to make sure Jones doesn't lose games for them. It's worked much of season.
But, they'll move on IMO. He's not the QB to build around.
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Time to move on.
Jones had chances to win it and did not.
Your QB has to win it. That simple.
You gotta let him win it….you can’t call fucking qb draws
Nowhere did I say Purdy was good.
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In comment 15932258 Devour the Day said:
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Time to move on.
Jones had chances to win it and did not.
Your QB has to win it. That simple.
You gotta let him win it….you can’t call fucking qb draws
There wasn't a single QB draw called.
Jones might be ok here,but we'll find out
As of right now, and based on all of the data we have, that would be very unfortunate.
He didn’t just need five yards. He needed 5 yards plus getting out of bounds as we had no timeouts.
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They can't get it done.
You can't pay them big money to not get it done.
Heinicke looked better than Jones.
Robinson looked better than Barkley.
I don’t agree on Jones today. Jones stepped up big time after the fumble. And Slayton dropped yet another pass in a big spot, which likely leads to clock run off and a FG to win the game.
Because those are the hardest throws. The offense is designed for extremely short throws to targets right in front of Jones and the occasional go ball, which also requires zero decion making.
When we were down 10-0 what did we do? Our bread and butter - bootleg, Jones throws 3 yards in the air to someone right in front of him.
There is no NFL offense that asks less from their QB in the passing game than the Giants.
From my username: I thought Eli was elite.
Key difference between Simms and Jones: deep passing. Both are tough and competitive. My biggest knock on Jones is that he does not take deep shots against zones as often as I would like despite demonstrating a high level of accuracy. I think this is more due to play design and game strategy to give this team the best chance to win.
Collins was good, but a fragile quarterback. When things were going right he was truly amazing (e.g. Vikings playoff game) but he caved easily when things were tough (e.g. Baltimore Super Bowl).
In the last 40+ years, Jones is in the top 2-4 quarterbacks that the Giants have had. Until you have someone with a high probability of being better, I think you try and sign or tag him.
Because if that's the case, I have a hard time giving any analysis ever offered by you any validity. It's just that ridiculous of a conclusion.
We had live music. We ate the striped bass that we caught on Friday. Good crowd, good weather.
I said to a few folks right before heading into the stadium “I’ve been anti Daniel Jones but today he can make me a believer”
I think it’s time to move on.
What’s scary is that Jones played a smart, largely mistake free game. It was a good outing for him. And we couldn’t score points. 13 + a TD from a strip sack deep in WFT territory. Meanwhile, Jones was completing virtually every pass for much of the game. Where are the points?
For those of us knocking our WRs, Slayton made an excellent play on that long reception. And that slant to Sills in the 2nd half had the receiver reaching back to snag the ball.
Let’s not pretend the WRs weren’t helping Jones at times. They were.
We had live music. We ate the striped bass that we caught on Friday. Good crowd, good weather.
I said to a few folks right before heading into the stadium “I’ve been anti Daniel Jones but today he can make me a believer”
I think it’s time to move on.
thank you
From my username: I thought Eli was elite.
Key difference between Simms and Jones: deep passing. Both are tough and competitive. My biggest knock on Jones is that he does not take deep shots against zones as often as I would like despite demonstrating a high level of accuracy. I think this is more due to play design and game strategy to give this team the best chance to win.
Collins was good, but a fragile quarterback. When things were going right he was truly amazing (e.g. Vikings playoff game) but he caved easily when things were tough (e.g. Baltimore Super Bowl).
In the last 40+ years, Jones is in the top 2-4 quarterbacks that the Giants have had. Until you have someone with a high probability of being better, I think you try and sign or tag him.
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That we are probably better off letting Jones AND Barkley walk.
What’s scary is that Jones played a smart, largely mistake free game. It was a good outing for him. And we couldn’t score points. 13 + a TD from a strip sack deep in WFT territory. Meanwhile, Jones was completing virtually every pass for much of the game. Where are the points?
For those of us knocking our WRs, Slayton made an excellent play on that long reception. And that slant to Sills in the 2nd half had the receiver reaching back to snag the ball.
Let’s not pretend the WRs weren’t helping Jones at times. They were.
He didn't do much special either. It's not only about avoiding mistakes. it's about making many big plays.
We ate the striped bass that we caught on Friday.
I said to a few folks right before heading into the stadium “I’ve been anti Daniel Jones but today he can make me a believer”
I think it’s time to move on.
Maybe the fish was undercooked? :)
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In comment 15932541 Sean said:
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That we are probably better off letting Jones AND Barkley walk.
What’s scary is that Jones played a smart, largely mistake free game. It was a good outing for him. And we couldn’t score points. 13 + a TD from a strip sack deep in WFT territory. Meanwhile, Jones was completing virtually every pass for much of the game. Where are the points?
For those of us knocking our WRs, Slayton made an excellent play on that long reception. And that slant to Sills in the 2nd half had the receiver reaching back to snag the ball.
Let’s not pretend the WRs weren’t helping Jones at times. They were.
He didn't do much special either. It's not only about avoiding mistakes. it's about making many big plays.
Kinda hard to make big plays when you’re tossing deep balls to Darius Slayton instead of Justin Jefferson, AJ Brown, or Tyreek Hill.
Jones may or may not be here next season, but the Giants need a WR corps for whoever the QB is in 2023 and beyond.
He didn't do much special either. It's not only about avoiding mistakes. it's about making many big plays.
Who’s the QB you see around the league consistently making these big plays with a receiving corps similar to the Giants? I’m genuinely interested in your answer.
Franchise tags, extensions, second contracts...forget it.
Move with Phase 2 of the rebuild. We are getting better and let's keep that momentum with different guys that handle the ball.
I continue to think Jones will enjoy a lucrative career as a backup QB. Head coaches trying to get to the playoffs despite an injured starting QB will love what they get from Jones - low errors, running. Outings like today will create a lot of demand for him - as a backup.
I really hate this comment, especially within the first several posts. If you disagree, debate it…. Otherwise why post a throwaway line like this? Does it make you feel cool?
How is anyone comfortable with a long term deal on the hope it changes with different receivers?
Then, on defense, you desperately need a LB or two. Probably also need a CB opposite Adoree when he comes back.
You’re talking replacing 7-8 players out of a possible 22 starters. That seems like a lot.
The league needs to get it priorities in order and the calls cost us a win today
I just don’t understand the hate for the guy. At all.
This is my take.
I get why people are fed up with him—he’s the qb and so people blame him for our anemic offense. But there’s more nuance than that. As you say, the IOL is weak and is the passcatching group is even weaker. A mid-round rookie TE is one of our better weapons. Which other starting qb would put up numbers with this talent?
His passing yards are low but critics also need to factor in his rushing yards.
Jones is not elite, but he’s also not the problem. Get Jones some decent passcatchers and let’s see what he does.
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I would rank him after Eli and Simms and ahead of Collins. I don’t think the difference between Simms and Jones is that different.
From my username: I thought Eli was elite.
Key difference between Simms and Jones: deep passing. Both are tough and competitive. My biggest knock on Jones is that he does not take deep shots against zones as often as I would like despite demonstrating a high level of accuracy. I think this is more due to play design and game strategy to give this team the best chance to win.
Collins was good, but a fragile quarterback. When things were going right he was truly amazing (e.g. Vikings playoff game) but he caved easily when things were tough (e.g. Baltimore Super Bowl).
In the last 40+ years, Jones is in the top 2-4 quarterbacks that the Giants have had. Until you have someone with a high probability of being better, I think you try and sign or tag him.
This place would have absolutely hated Phil Simms during his early career. And yet...
For better or worse, the reality of the cap means that you gotta be sure if you want to commit to a QB's second contract now in a way that it just didn't with Phil Simms.
Jones is OK. He's not awful but he's limited at this stage of his career.
Exactly.
Apparently every other roster but the Giants is loaded. Been hearing this for 4 years.
I don't want him on the Giants - we need a real QB
He's never gonna take the Giants to the promised land
Before you flush him you better know damn well what the alternative is.
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In comment 15932501 ZogZerg said:
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They can't get it done.
You can't pay them big money to not get it done.
Heinicke looked better than Jones.
Robinson looked better than Barkley.
I don’t agree on Jones today. Jones stepped up big time after the fumble. And Slayton dropped yet another pass in a big spot, which likely leads to clock run off and a FG to win the game.
I’m sorry, but how did Jones step up? He threw for 200 yards (136 through 3 qtrs) and 55 of those were on a heave where Slayton made a nice adjustment to find it. He got us a TD in the second half when the defense set him up on the 20 and he hit a WR who created a ton of separation. Then the offense was a 3 and out machine the rest of the game.
I swear if Jones doesn’t literally shit himself some of you guys think it is a good day. If Zack Wilson played this game, you would all be laughing at how awful he is.
The taunting penalty literally caused the team to not win.
Why is this concept difficult to comprehend?
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... we had McLaurin and the Commanders offensive line.
Apparently every other roster but the Giants is loaded. Been hearing this for 4 years.
No offense, but only a fucking imbecile thinks that having a player like Terry McLaurin is inconsequential.
You can't pay them big money to not get it done.
With respect to Barkley, I agree. Concerning Jones, who is out there either as FA or can be acquired via trade or through the draft that is a major upgrade without decimating draft capital?
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... we had McLaurin and the Commanders offensive line.
Apparently every other roster but the Giants is loaded. Been hearing this for 4 years.
If you didn't see the consistent difference in line play for Wash vs us, then you are fucking blind.
He's better than Brown and Kanell. I'd say he's at the Collins level.
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That we are probably better off letting Jones AND Barkley walk.
What’s scary is that Jones played a smart, largely mistake free game. It was a good outing for him. And we couldn’t score points. 13 + a TD from a strip sack deep in WFT territory. Meanwhile, Jones was completing virtually every pass for much of the game. Where are the points?
For those of us knocking our WRs, Slayton made an excellent play on that long reception. And that slant to Sills in the 2nd half had the receiver reaching back to snag the ball.
Let’s not pretend the WRs weren’t helping Jones at times. They were.
Jones had a pretty good first half, specifically the second quarter. And then we got the early third quarter turnover and Jones had an easy throw to Hodgins, who ran an outstanding route.
After that? Jones was the Jones we have come to expect - ordinary. His QBR was 31.
BTW, that 4th down throw on 4th and 4 by Heinicke late in the game to Samuel was a tremendous play. That was the game...
Next to Feliciano and Glowinski, he looked like the 2nd coming of Leon Searcy... lol. Although to be fair a lot of our blocking problems today were also on the TEs.
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In comment 15932520 Sean said:
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In comment 15932501 ZogZerg said:
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They can't get it done.
You can't pay them big money to not get it done.
Heinicke looked better than Jones.
Robinson looked better than Barkley.
I don’t agree on Jones today. Jones stepped up big time after the fumble. And Slayton dropped yet another pass in a big spot, which likely leads to clock run off and a FG to win the game.
I’m sorry, but how did Jones step up? He threw for 200 yards (136 through 3 qtrs) and 55 of those were on a heave where Slayton made a nice adjustment to find it. He got us a TD in the second half when the defense set him up on the 20 and he hit a WR who created a ton of separation. Then the offense was a 3 and out machine the rest of the game.
I swear if Jones doesn’t literally shit himself some of you guys think it is a good day. If Zack Wilson played this game, you would all be laughing at how awful he is.
You should apologize for not including his rushing yards, and the first downs he gained on the ground. I never said he had a great day, I said he was better than Heinicke. If Zack Wilson played he would have lost us the game, not sure why you even brought him up.
If you don’t see the difference between what throwing to Slayton who drops game winners and an actual legit WR like McLaurin does for a QB than I don’t l know what else to say on this topic. And I’ll repeat again for the 100th time, I’m good moving on from Jones, but that doesn’t mean I think he’s awful like half these posts are suggesting.
The only other option is to throw huge money at Lamar, but I'm not sure I like that either. We need a lot of players at Guard, WR, ILB and CB, and we can't be hamstrung by his big contract.
I don't think its likely Jones gets big money, but I think he tests the market. However I think any team he is talking too will do the same analysis above, and come to the same conclusion that he isn't worth more than those guys
I was actually wondering if Jones could make that play, too. I just don't see, however, especially moving left.
Have to give Heinicke credit. That was a great play in the clutch...
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Imagine if Jones made a play like that on the 4th & 4. The Jones fan club would throw a parade. And that’s Heinicke.
I was actually wondering if Jones could make that play, too. I just don't see, however, especially moving left.
Have to give Heinicke credit. That was a great play in the clutch...
Yeah Heinicke is better than Jones. L O fucking L.
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In comment 15932695 Sean said:
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Imagine if Jones made a play like that on the 4th & 4. The Jones fan club would throw a parade. And that’s Heinicke.
I was actually wondering if Jones could make that play, too. I just don't see, however, especially moving left.
Have to give Heinicke credit. That was a great play in the clutch...
Yeah Heinicke is better than Jones. L O fucking L.
I don't think Heinicke is better than Jones -- but the problem is that I don't think Jones is better than Heinicke
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His supporting cast is shit including the so call All Pro RB at 3 yds a carry. If you are saying Jones needs to win this game than Barkley needs to do his part. And where was the $30m a year man on the DL when they ran straight through us. Most of you are clueless and obviously never played the game. Yea Archie Manning sucked as a QB. It had nothing to do with the players around him on the Saints. Saints couldn’t win games so it’s all on him. Just stupid.
All pro?
80% completions not including spikes, 200yds, leading rusher 70+ yards, 0 int, 1 fumble. Playing with that OL, WR and Barkley producing shit, I would consider that #1 stud on the team. There were plenty of duds.
Jones wasn’t bad today, he was ok. But all pro?
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In comment 15932695 Sean said:
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Imagine if Jones made a play like that on the 4th & 4. The Jones fan club would throw a parade. And that’s Heinicke.
I was actually wondering if Jones could make that play, too. I just don't see, however, especially moving left.
Have to give Heinicke credit. That was a great play in the clutch...
Yeah Heinicke is better than Jones. L O fucking L.
I didn't say that but keep squirting lemon juice on your screen hoping to find some hidden meaning.
The only other option is to throw huge money at Lamar, but I'm not sure I like that either. We need a lot of players at Guard, WR, ILB and CB, and we can't be hamstrung by his big contract.
I don't think its likely Jones gets big money, but I think he tests the market. However I think any team he is talking too will do the same analysis above, and come to the same conclusion that he isn't worth more than those guys
Isn't Lamar injured?
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In comment 15932709 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15932695 Sean said:
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Imagine if Jones made a play like that on the 4th & 4. The Jones fan club would throw a parade. And that’s Heinicke.
I was actually wondering if Jones could make that play, too. I just don't see, however, especially moving left.
Have to give Heinicke credit. That was a great play in the clutch...
Yeah Heinicke is better than Jones. L O fucking L.
I don't think Heinicke is better than Jones -- but the problem is that I don't think Jones is better than Heinicke
That's funny. Thanks for the laugh
How is anyone comfortable with a long term deal on the hope it changes with different receivers?
Do you seriously think Jones and this team would look the same if we had Miami's or Buffalo's or Cincinatti's receivers?
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... we had McLaurin and the Commanders offensive line.
Apparently every other roster but the Giants is loaded. Been hearing this for 4 years.
Sean, go through the skill position corps of every other NFC East team and compare them to the Giants. Which one do you rate below the Giants?
Every other team in the Giants division has 3 WRs, minimum, that we would take over the Giants' players. TE? Wash is probably the "worst" with Logan Thomas, and he's pretty damn good. RB? Yup, the Giants have Barkley....after that?
The Giants are in a rebuild and the skill players are #1 on the offensive shopping list.
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Jones was ok for the most part today, and didn’t throw many incompletions and the offense was nonexistent.
How is anyone comfortable with a long term deal on the hope it changes with different receivers?
Do you seriously think Jones and this team would look the same if we had Miami's or Buffalo's or Cincinatti's receivers?
I’m not willing to commit long term on the hypothetical that Jones can be a Super Bowl caliber QB with better receivers
The only other option is to throw huge money at Lamar, but I'm not sure I like that either. We need a lot of players at Guard, WR, ILB and CB, and we can't be hamstrung by his big contract.
I don't think its likely Jones gets big money, but I think he tests the market. However I think any team he is talking too will do the same analysis above, and come to the same conclusion that he isn't worth more than those guys
It's not even between Daniel Jones and Jimmy G. Cmon
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Jones was ok for the most part today, and didn’t throw many incompletions and the offense was nonexistent.
How is anyone comfortable with a long term deal on the hope it changes with different receivers?
Do you seriously think Jones and this team would look the same if we had Miami's or Buffalo's or Cincinatti's receivers?
Don't bother. Our No. 1 receiver right now is a guy who this staff couldn't wait to get rid of. Forced to take a pay cut, and even with that was buried in the depth chart. Think about that. He is now WR1. WR2 is a guy we picked up a few weeks ago off waivers. How is it possible DJ isn't lighting it up with this group. Anyone who cannot acknowledge the obvious fact that tis is a woefully deficient group that handcuffs eyerything in this offense has an agenda.
And that's without discussing the mediocre to bad pass blocking of the interior of the OL.
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Wash is not all that good. Even if the taunting penalty had not been called, or if Slayton had caught that late deep ball, and the NYG had won, I would not have been very impressed with his performance. IMHO it's a 1 year bridge deal and then moving on from him in 2024 or it's adios to DJ in 2023. Either way, he will not be missed.
The taunting penalty literally caused the team to not win.
Why is this concept difficult to comprehend?
Idiocy???
How is anyone comfortable with a long term deal on the hope it changes with different receivers?
I am having a hard time remembering too many people in this forum who actually said they wanted the Giants to keep Jones around long term.
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Jones was ok for the most part today, and didn’t throw many incompletions and the offense was nonexistent.
How is anyone comfortable with a long term deal on the hope it changes with different receivers?
Do you seriously think Jones and this team would look the same if we had Miami's or Buffalo's or Cincinatti's receivers?
I’d ask if you thought this team would look the same with Josh Allen or Joe Burrow, but I know the answer for some of you because you will believe Jones is elite no matter how much film is put in front of you.
It’s rather fascinating.
Oh get off your our high horse and stop being a cunt. It’s his opinion. Deal with.
Troll
[quote] In comment 15932768 Bill in UT said:
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In comment 15932594 ajr2456 said:
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Jones was ok for the most part today, and didn’t throw many incompletions and the offense was nonexistent.
How is anyone comfortable with a long term deal on the hope it changes with different receivers?
Do you seriously think Jones and this team would look the same if we had Miami's or Buffalo's or Cincinatti's receivers?
I’d ask if you thought this team would look the same with Josh Allen or Joe Burrow, but I know the answer for some of you because you will believe Jones is elite no matter how much film is put in front of you. [/quote
Doesn’t matter what any of us think about Jones, we won’t be influithe decision Giants make about him.
I sometimes get the impression the Jones critics hold us responsible for Giants losses
I’d ask if you thought this team would look the same with Josh Allen or Joe Burrow, but I know the answer for some of you because you will believe Jones is elite no matter how much film is put in front of you.
The problem with your point is that if QB talent was all that mattered, why did the Bengals use a top 10 pick on Jamarr Chase when they already had 2 talented receivers? Why did the Bills trade a first round pick for Stefon Diggs? Josh Allen didn’t throw for 300 yards once during his first two years in the league. In fact Josh Allen averaged almost exactly the same amount of passing yards the year before BUF got Diggs that Daniel Jones is averaging this season.
People are allowed to think Daniel Jones isn’t good enough. And he’s certainly not as talented as Allen and Burrow. But the idea that he’s (or any other QB if they were placed in this situation) in no way affected by the dearth of talent at the wide receiver position is just idiotic.
It’s rather fascinating.
It's also fascinating the dopes that have laser focus on one position on the offense.
Garbage.
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There are just some people who are ignorant and want to die on the hill that is Daniel Jones and his shitty QB play.
It’s rather fascinating.
It's also fascinating the dopes that have laser focus on one position on the offense.
Cool story. Enjoy your Daniel Jones rose colored glasses, Pollyanna.
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In comment 15932808 bwitz said:
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There are just some people who are ignorant and want to die on the hill that is Daniel Jones and his shitty QB play.
It’s rather fascinating.
It's also fascinating the dopes that have laser focus on one position on the offense.
m
Cool story. Enjoy your Daniel Jones rose colored glasses, Pollyanna.
Eat a dick with your shit colored DJ glasses.
Careful, he ll campaign to have you banned
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In comment 15932855 Johnny5 said:
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In comment 15932808 bwitz said:
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There are just some people who are ignorant and want to die on the hill that is Daniel Jones and his shitty QB play.
It’s rather fascinating.
It's also fascinating the dopes that have laser focus on one position on the offense.
m
Cool story. Enjoy your Daniel Jones rose colored glasses, Pollyanna.
Eat a dick with your shit colored DJ glasses.
Lmfao. Sad little man.
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In comment 15932864 bwitz said:
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In comment 15932855 Johnny5 said:
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In comment 15932808 bwitz said:
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There are just some people who are ignorant and want to die on the hill that is Daniel Jones and his shitty QB play.
It’s rather fascinating.
It's also fascinating the dopes that have laser focus on one position on the offense.
m
Cool story. Enjoy your Daniel Jones rose colored glasses, Pollyanna.
Eat a dick with your shit colored DJ glasses.
Lmfao. Sad little man.
Whatever you say dooshbag.
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In comment 15932452 Carl in CT said:
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His supporting cast is shit including the so call All Pro RB at 3 yds a carry. If you are saying Jones needs to win this game than Barkley needs to do his part. And where was the $30m a year man on the DL when they ran straight through us. Most of you are clueless and obviously never played the game. Yea Archie Manning sucked as a QB. It had nothing to do with the players around him on the Saints. Saints couldn’t win games so it’s all on him. Just stupid.
All pro?
80% completions not including spikes, 200yds, leading rusher 70+ yards, 0 int, 1 fumble. Playing with that OL, WR and Barkley producing shit, I would consider that #1 stud on the team. There were plenty of duds.
I can't believe people are actually using the completion percentage as evidence that Jones played a good game. He barely threw the ball downfield at all. How many yards did all those completions amount to? Take away the prayer he threw up to Slayton for 50 or 60 yards (and it wasn't a great throw by any means, rather it was a nice adjustment by Slayton) and he did squat through the air today.
Sorry Frenchie -- It doesn't mean I don't love you
It's not a bad game. It's not a great game either. Sucks that Slayton couldn't bring that one in to improve that statline. Also sucks DJ couldn't hold onto the ball to improve that statline.
I really wonder what kind of contract DJ gets and from who next year.
You didn't get to see these guys live, then. I watched them play during their eras.
Jones isn't in the same class as Eli, Simms, Collins,the Winner of SB 25, Jeff Hostetler (who you didn't mention) AND Superbowl/MVP winner Kurt Warner! Simms was MILES ahead of Jones, and other than Bavaro, had worst WR's than Jones has! (Slayton, believe it or not, would be a #1 on the 1986 team that won a SB).
And you obviously didn't see Collins live (I watched him plenty at Albany Camp). Collins had the best arm of any Giants QB, he had a laser. Put him in Dabol's offense, and he'd be unstoppable.
Collins only problem was not being able to audible, and being hampered by Jim Fassel loosing his nut sack when he game planned against the Ravens in the 2000 SB (he totally gave up on the run). Jones simply isn't anywhere near as good as Kerry at this point. Look at what Kerry could do against the Vikings in the 2000 NFC Championship game (I was there!)
Giants 41, Vikings ZERO!!
I put Jones in the Brunner, Danny Kannell, Kent Graham, Dave Brown group. He's Alex Smith lite...put a great team around him, and you can get to the playoffs, but you won't sniff a Super Bowl.
Like Alex Smith, we may need to have him around a year or two, considering how many holes there still are at WR, LB, etc. I doubt the team has enough firepower to move up in the draft, and you wouldn't want to draft a QB without the help he needs.
We're probably still three years away from being a serious contender (Replacing Jones/Barkley and developing a rookie qb). Let's NOT fall into the Denver trap (Russell Wilson), by going after an older QB.
Jones can move though when he runs. Still has not demonstrated an ability to lead the offense with his arm consistently, or lead the big late game drive throwing the ball. Would be a mistake to make a major commitment long term after this season.
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In comment 15932594 ajr2456 said:
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Jones was ok for the most part today, and didn’t throw many incompletions and the offense was nonexistent.
How is anyone comfortable with a long term deal on the hope it changes with different receivers?
Do you seriously think Jones and this team would look the same if we had Miami's or Buffalo's or Cincinatti's receivers?
Don't bother. Our No. 1 receiver right now is a guy who this staff couldn't wait to get rid of. Forced to take a pay cut, and even with that was buried in the depth chart. Think about that. He is now WR1. WR2 is a guy we picked up a few weeks ago off waivers. How is it possible DJ isn't lighting it up with this group. Anyone who cannot acknowledge the obvious fact that tis is a woefully deficient group that handcuffs eyerything in this offense has an agenda.
And that's without discussing the mediocre to bad pass blocking of the interior of the OL.
Yeah, uh, but he’s gotta suck it up and make plays.
Don’t think as highly of Hoss as you do, although he had great games against the Bears and Bills to get us a Super Bowl. After defense coordinators figured out his weaknesses, he never delivered the same level performances.
Forgot Kurt Warner, but don’t really include him as a Giant because he was a 1/2 year rental at near the end of his career.
But as we proceed it's becoming obvious that this coaching staff has zero confidence in Jones to run an NFL passing offense. Last week, down by 15 in the 4th quarter we come out running the ball. In 2 minute situations, we come out running the ball. We very rarely call drop back passes and even less frequently throw to challenging areas of the field.
It's clear that this is a designer offense for a QB who's a pretty good runner and needs to see a receiver open right in front of him to pass effectively. To this staffs great credit, they have put Jones in positions to do OK given those massive constraints. But this is not a way to play football in the modern NFL and have any real success.
These last few games have made me increasingly confident that the coaches see no future with Jones as a starter. And that is great because it's nearly impossible to build a high level team with a QB as limited as Jones.
We only have 4 comeback wins this year - I'm guessing that was in spite of Jones because the staff CLEARLY doesn't trust him with the game on the line.
Then again, it wasn't too long ago we were regaled by these same bozos about how Jones has never been good at any level of play extending back to youth football.
I just wonder what motivates these takes, said with such confidence.
But as we proceed it's becoming obvious that this coaching staff has zero confidence in Jones to run an NFL passing offense. Last week, down by 15 in the 4th quarter we come out running the ball. In 2 minute situations, we come out running the ball. We very rarely call drop back passes and even less frequently throw to challenging areas of the field.
It's clear that this is a designer offense for a QB who's a pretty good runner and needs to see a receiver open right in front of him to pass effectively. To this staffs great credit, they have put Jones in positions to do OK given those massive constraints. But this is not a way to play football in the modern NFL and have any real success.
These last few games have made me increasingly confident that the coaches see no future with Jones as a starter. And that is great because it's nearly impossible to build a high level team with a QB as limited as Jones.
If anything this game should make them realize they need to put more faith in Jones. Running with Barkley in the second half killed this offense. If Slayton holds on to the pass he drops, this story ends differently.
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I don't know how we have no intermediate passing game. Every throw felt within three yards of the LOS or 20 plus yards down field. I'm sure I'm exaggerating but it's frustrating not to be able to get 8-15 yards passing.
Because those are the hardest throws. The offense is designed for extremely short throws to targets right in front of Jones and the occasional go ball, which also requires zero decion making.
When we were down 10-0 what did we do? Our bread and butter - bootleg, Jones throws 3 yards in the air to someone right in front of him.
There is no NFL offense that asks less from their QB in the passing game than the Giants.
This is a good point. Jones had a throw 15 yards down the field or so late in the game where defenders were draped over the receiver. Almost led to a pick.
But as we proceed it's becoming obvious that this coaching staff has zero confidence in Jones to run an NFL passing offense. Last week, down by 15 in the 4th quarter we come out running the ball. In 2 minute situations, we come out running the ball. We very rarely call drop back passes and even less frequently throw to challenging areas of the field.
It's clear that this is a designer offense for a QB who's a pretty good runner and needs to see a receiver open right in front of him to pass effectively. To this staffs great credit, they have put Jones in positions to do OK given those massive constraints. But this is not a way to play football in the modern NFL and have any real success.
These last few games have made me increasingly confident that the coaches see no future with Jones as a starter. And that is great because it's nearly impossible to build a high level team with a QB as limited as Jones.
Last week was more frustrating than this one to me - down big to a superior team is the time to take risk and let it rip. I actually thought last week was poor coaching. Running the ball down two scores with five minutes left was a little silly IMO.
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Would be extending Daniel Jones for big money. It's the one thing that we could do that would destroy the rebuild before it starts. Given Maras affinity for Jones, it's been a major concern.
But as we proceed it's becoming obvious that this coaching staff has zero confidence in Jones to run an NFL passing offense. Last week, down by 15 in the 4th quarter we come out running the ball. In 2 minute situations, we come out running the ball. We very rarely call drop back passes and even less frequently throw to challenging areas of the field.
It's clear that this is a designer offense for a QB who's a pretty good runner and needs to see a receiver open right in front of him to pass effectively. To this staffs great credit, they have put Jones in positions to do OK given those massive constraints. But this is not a way to play football in the modern NFL and have any real success.
These last few games have made me increasingly confident that the coaches see no future with Jones as a starter. And that is great because it's nearly impossible to build a high level team with a QB as limited as Jones.
If anything this game should make them realize they need to put more faith in Jones. Running with Barkley in the second half killed this offense. If Slayton holds on to the pass he drops, this story ends differently.
This is three coaching staffs in a row that have gone absurdly conservative in what they ask Jones to do.
And according to Sy it was a poor throw and bad jump. That was not a Slayton drop (as all but a few will admit).
I don't want him on the Giants - we need a real QB
He's never gonna take the Giants to the promised land
Money doesn't give you class, and being a Mod doesn't confer football knowledge.
The fact you even tried to reference that he wasn't good in high school should be cause for embarrassment.
Instead, you seem to think you had a fucking point. You want to relive your stupidity?? Have at it, Ace.
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This is three coaching staffs in a row that have gone absurdly conservative in what they ask Jones to do.
And according to Sy it was a poor throw and bad jump. That was not a Slayton drop (as all but a few will admit).
1. It's the second coaching staff to play conservative.
2. Sy is not the Alpha nor the Omega. You could argue it was a tough catch, but...that was a drop.
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Let's relive the Jones glory days.
The fact you even tried to reference that he wasn't good in high school should be cause for embarrassment.
Instead, you seem to think you had a fucking point. You want to relive your stupidity?? Have at it, Ace.
I said he was never good at any level. Usually when adults are talking that means high school or college. It's generally assumed that anybody playing professional sports was good in high school or younger. Feel free to go look it up but try not to alter my post when you do it.
Jones wasn't why we lost today. Oh wait, we didn't lose at all! We missed a game winning field goal that could easily have gone in and tied. This hurts the Skins much more than it hurts us.
Glad gidie switched sides. Now we can really enjoy it when Schoen re-signs Jones in the offseason and BBI turns into even a bigger joke of bad takes.
The smart money is to resign him while still looking for that "promise land" type QB. And build the rest of the team.
The Giants can do two things at once.
Again, I don't see him as the problem today. But he's not going to singlehandedly win games.
Jones wasn't why we lost today. Oh wait, we didn't lose at all! We missed a game winning field goal that could easily have gone in and tied. This hurts the Skins much more than it hurts us.
Glad gidie switched sides. Now we can really enjoy it when Schoen re-signs Jones in the offseason and BBI turns into even a bigger joke of bad takes.
It hurts us equally. If we don’t beat Washington in two weeks, we lose an 8-8-1 tie breaker to Washington. There’s also a realistic chance the Lions could get to 9-8 the way they’re playing and their schedule.
Jones wasn't why we lost today. Oh wait, we didn't lose at all! We missed a game winning field goal that could easily have gone in and tied. This hurts the Skins much more than it hurts us.
Glad gidie switched sides. Now we can really enjoy it when Schoen re-signs Jones in the offseason and BBI turns into even a bigger joke of bad takes.
The case for Jones has always included that he's got "x game winning drives' in his career.
He had three chances to do just that and never got out of the parking lot.
In a game in which many people here indicated was a "big game-maybe the biggest of his career yet" he did what?
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away.
Jones wasn't why we lost today. Oh wait, we didn't lose at all! We missed a game winning field goal that could easily have gone in and tied. This hurts the Skins much more than it hurts us.
Glad gidie switched sides. Now we can really enjoy it when Schoen re-signs Jones in the offseason and BBI turns into even a bigger joke of bad takes.
The case for Jones has always included that he's got "x game winning drives' in his career.
He had three chances to do just that and never got out of the parking lot.
In a game in which many people here indicated was a "big game-maybe the biggest of his career yet" he did what?
He threw a strike to Slayton and he dropped it?
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away.
Jones wasn't why we lost today. Oh wait, we didn't lose at all! We missed a game winning field goal that could easily have gone in and tied. This hurts the Skins much more than it hurts us.
Glad gidie switched sides. Now we can really enjoy it when Schoen re-signs Jones in the offseason and BBI turns into even a bigger joke of bad takes.
The case for Jones has always included that he's got "x game winning drives' in his career.
He had three chances to do just that and never got out of the parking lot.
In a game in which many people here indicated was a "big game-maybe the biggest of his career yet" he did what?
Well on the first GW chance, he threw a 40 yard rope and his number 1 WR dropped it.
On his third GW chance, he’s on the Washington side of the field with a mailable 3rd and 2, and his halfback and receiver bump into each other screwing up the play like it’s pee wee ball.
If Slayton catches that ball OR we make a first down on that 3rd and 2, does Gidie even make this post?
I have no idea if Jones is the guy going forward. More than likely, he’s the bridge guy to the next guy. But let’s not act like his supporting cast isn’t Barkley, a number 3 guy in Slayton, and practice squad filler.
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In comment 15933254 adamg said:
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away.
Jones wasn't why we lost today. Oh wait, we didn't lose at all! We missed a game winning field goal that could easily have gone in and tied. This hurts the Skins much more than it hurts us.
Glad gidie switched sides. Now we can really enjoy it when Schoen re-signs Jones in the offseason and BBI turns into even a bigger joke of bad takes.
The case for Jones has always included that he's got "x game winning drives' in his career.
He had three chances to do just that and never got out of the parking lot.
In a game in which many people here indicated was a "big game-maybe the biggest of his career yet" he did what?
Well on the first GW chance, he threw a 40 yard rope and his number 1 WR dropped it.
On his third GW chance, he’s on the Washington side of the field with a mailable 3rd and 2, and his halfback and receiver bump into each other screwing up the play like it’s pee wee ball.
If Slayton catches that ball OR we make a first down on that 3rd and 2, does Gidie even make this post?
I have no idea if Jones is the guy going forward. More than likely, he’s the bridge guy to the next guy. But let’s not act like his supporting cast isn’t Barkley, a number 3 guy in Slayton, and practice squad filler.
makeable not mailable.
We can do what ifs for dozens of plays each game. The Giants are a handful of what ifs from being 5-7.
It's clear they don't trust him. They do not put the game in his hands and are extremely conservative in what they ask him to do.
One can take that however they see fit, but to me none of that equals the slightest bit of evidence they intend a long-term relationship with the player.
We can do what ifs for dozens of plays each game. The Giants are a handful of what ifs from being 5-7.
So if Jones checks down there, people like you chastise him for not taking chances. On a 3rd and 10 that should have never happened since Slayton dropped the long pass and was arguably interfered with on 2nd down, he tries to get aggressive, and fit one in, and the defender almost makes a diving play, and that’s on him?
I really kinda hope we move on from Jones, and he signs with San Fran or the Raiders, just to see what happens. I literally don’t think a portion of this fan base will ever accept him since he was probably overdrafted.
But Giants fans have also been weird with quarterbacks. We started saying “Eli will be fine” because half the fan base was ready to move on from him in November 2007. I know Simms was pretty much considered a China doll bust from about 1980 until 1984. And on we go.
Give him some protection and some weapons, then see. Also, I would not resign Barkley. Use the money for OL and WR's, then you can sign a few lesser backs. NFL is a passing league and you don't need a franchise RB anymore. If Jones would accept a one-year deal, and the Giants commit to upgrading the OL and WR's, we might find out if Jones deserves a new lengthy contract. You can't simply decide to replace him since the new QB would have to deal with the same lack of protection and weapons. I have confidence in our new GM but it will take at least another two off seasons to upgrade the positions where we are lacking talent. If Jones went to a team like the 49ers, people would talk about him in a completely different way as he would be surrounded by a lot more talent. Jones is smart, hard-working, mobile, and has a good arm. Pretty good traits to start with in a starting QB.
We can only grade on the plays that actually happened
We only have 4 comeback wins this year - I'm guessing that was in spite of Jones because the staff CLEARLY doesn't trust him with the game on the line.
Then again, it wasn't too long ago we were regaled by these same bozos about how Jones has never been good at any level of play extending back to youth football.
I just wonder what motivates these takes, said with such confidence.
Oh here you are, insisting on being wrong as always. Slink away.
Give him some protection and some weapons, then see. Also, I would not resign Barkley. Use the money for OL and WR's, then you can sign a few lesser backs. NFL is a passing league and you don't need a franchise RB anymore. If Jones would accept a one-year deal, and the Giants commit to upgrading the OL and WR's, we might find out if Jones deserves a new lengthy contract. You can't simply decide to replace him since the new QB would have to deal with the same lack of protection and weapons. I have confidence in our new GM but it will take at least another two off seasons to upgrade the positions where we are lacking talent. If Jones went to a team like the 49ers, people would talk about him in a completely different way as he would be surrounded by a lot more talent. Jones is smart, hard-working, mobile, and has a good arm. Pretty good traits to start with in a starting QB.
He’s slow to process and not instinctive. The sooner he’s gone the better, and I’m baffled by people who continue to insist his evaluation period needs to extend indefinitely.
We can only grade on the plays that actually happened
It’s not a fallacy of a predetermined outcome to say that his surrounding cast leaves a bit to be desired. If his surrounding cast is better, his stats would be better.
Now maybe that “better” still isn’t good enough. I’m not sold on the guy either, but fair is fair.
I’m not sold on the guy either but
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In comment 15933254 adamg said:
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away.
Jones wasn't why we lost today. Oh wait, we didn't lose at all! We missed a game winning field goal that could easily have gone in and tied. This hurts the Skins much more than it hurts us.
Glad gidie switched sides. Now we can really enjoy it when Schoen re-signs Jones in the offseason and BBI turns into even a bigger joke of bad takes.
The case for Jones has always included that he's got "x game winning drives' in his career.
He had three chances to do just that and never got out of the parking lot.
In a game in which many people here indicated was a "big game-maybe the biggest of his career yet" he did what?
He threw a strike to Slayton and he dropped it?
On first down. How'd the rest of the attempted game winning drive go?
drive go?
We can sit here all day and talk about other players not supporting him or disscting plays not made, Jones is out of time. There are 5 games left and what happens in December matters a lot more than October.
The NFL isn't fair and conditions aren't always going to be optimal. That offense was a sick and wounded animal in the second half. They had nothing. At no point were they a serious threat to put the game away and frankly they haven't done that at all this year.
There are 5 games left. 7-2 has turned to 7-5. Barkley carried them as far as he could. Is Jones going to do any carrying or is the expectation that Barkley needs to be everything and Jones just needs to show up for work to get the credit?
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is a folly of the clueless.
We only have 4 comeback wins this year - I'm guessing that was in spite of Jones because the staff CLEARLY doesn't trust him with the game on the line.
Then again, it wasn't too long ago we were regaled by these same bozos about how Jones has never been good at any level of play extending back to youth football.
I just wonder what motivates these takes, said with such confidence.
Oh here you are, insisting on being wrong as always. Slink away.
The last line is even funnier when you realize it’s coming from one of biggest Gettleman simps on this board.
The discussion is as usual about Daniel Jones and his future as a Giants player.
I know you think we should just let him go, I’ve read your posts on the topic. But if you let him go, someone has to play the position. I assume you want to also let Barkley go so that would mean we need:
QB1, RB1, WR1, WR2, Starting interior lineman or 2, MLB or 2, and a CB2. That seems like a lot to me. I wonder if we are not better served by re-signing Jones to something like 3/60, tagging Barkley, and using draft picks/FA to fill the other holes.
Tagging Barkley still means we have about 8 other holes to fill. I think most everyone wants the Giants to win more consistently. We’re just discussing the best way to make that happen.
To be a fly in Joe Schoen’s office is the only way we’re going to find out prior to spring 2023.
There are 31 other teams in this league. Which one would want to better themselves by adding Daniel Jones to their starting roster? Who's that team?
I am still on the fence with DJ.
I give Schoen and Daboll one shot at drafting a QB. Once they do they have 2 years to get to the playoffs. If they don't and DJ goes elsewhere and is successful, then it is time to change the guard again.
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I’d just like to know the name of a QB who finds himself in a similar situation as Daniel Jones, yet is producing at a level superior to him. Who’s this QB?
There are 31 other teams in this league. Which one would want to better themselves by adding Daniel Jones to their starting roster? Who's that team?
We will find out this off season. Meanwhile, I really do not care what the answer is to that question. What I want to know (and you can be the first to answer this question), what free agent QB are we signing to upgrade the QB position? If your plan is to do it through the draft, which QB are we taking after the 10th pick in the draft?
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I’d just like to know the name of a QB who finds himself in a similar situation as Daniel Jones, yet is producing at a level superior to him. Who’s this QB?
There are 31 other teams in this league. Which one would want to better themselves by adding Daniel Jones to their starting roster? Who's that team?
The answer to the question you asked is >0.
I’m still looking for the name of just 1 QB who people feel is productive in a situation similar to Daniel Jones. It’s simply not feasible to produce at a decent rate when the receivers are couch guys and the interior of the OL makes it impossible to run a normal passing offense. We’ve seen guys succeed at the highest levels without one or the other, but not both.
If you think the next QB is going to show up and turn chickenshit into chicken soup, you’ll be in threads complaining about that guy too.
I am still on the fence with DJ.
I give Schoen and Daboll one shot at drafting a QB. Once they do they have 2 years to get to the playoffs. If they don't and DJ goes elsewhere and is successful, then it is time to change the guard again.
I think this is exactly where I am at as well. Barkley is a very nice running back. Maybe you tag him just to get another year. But I would pass long term. The OBJ talk is insanity.
I see Jones as a decent QB. His talent has won games for the Giants. Unfortunately, through lack of surrounding talent or lack of personal talent his throwing numbers are blah.
If the Giants make the playoffs, I think Jones will be back. In that scenario, the Giants will be picking 20th or later. They will be well out of range of a QB that Daboll and Schoen can hitch their careers too. I do not see them dumping Jones and crossing their fingers with a QB drafted outside of the top 10.
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In comment 15932292 rnargi said:
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James playing Kestone Kop. Jones fault.
Slaton dropping the deep ball. Jones fault.
Interior line turnstyling. Jones fault.
DEF giving up a 90 yard game tying TD drive in the closing minute. Jones fault.
How much are you willing to pay DJ, and for how long?
Without that, your excuses are tired.
Who is talking about future $$? This is about the game today and blaming him.
In case you were unaware, DJ is a free agent after this season. The future money is the only thing relevant about determining blame with regard to DJ.
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Barkley and the thought of bringing back OBJ.
I am still on the fence with DJ.
I give Schoen and Daboll one shot at drafting a QB. Once they do they have 2 years to get to the playoffs. If they don't and DJ goes elsewhere and is successful, then it is time to change the guard again.
I think this is exactly where I am at as well. Barkley is a very nice running back. Maybe you tag him just to get another year. But I would pass long term. The OBJ talk is insanity.
I see Jones as a decent QB. His talent has won games for the Giants. Unfortunately, through lack of surrounding talent or lack of personal talent his throwing numbers are blah.
If the Giants make the playoffs, I think Jones will be back. In that scenario, the Giants will be picking 20th or later. They will be well out of range of a QB that Daboll and Schoen can hitch their careers too. I do not see them dumping Jones and crossing their fingers with a QB drafted outside of the top 10.
In my view the defense has been the reason he's been able to win games. There isn't very much required of him. Only that he is able to execute one or two full drives a game. That is not a very high bar in my opinion. If he needs three he can't do it. Yesterday he gave up any advantage the Giants had in the first quarter -- turnover then a quickly stalled drive that led to 3 and 7 points -- he had to execute 1 full drive jus to mitigate that. Then he had one other full drive after that.
Weak!
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In comment 15933356 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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I’d just like to know the name of a QB who finds himself in a similar situation as Daniel Jones, yet is producing at a level superior to him. Who’s this QB?
There are 31 other teams in this league. Which one would want to better themselves by adding Daniel Jones to their starting roster? Who's that team?
We will find out this off season. Meanwhile, I really do not care what the answer is to that question. What I want to know (and you can be the first to answer this question), what free agent QB are we signing to upgrade the QB position? If your plan is to do it through the draft, which QB are we taking after the 10th pick in the draft?
If you're leasing a car, and the end of the lease is approaching, you have a few options, right?
1) You can buy the car coming off lease. Your payments will increase substantially and your commitment to the car will be for a longer period of time, with some stretch of time near the start of that renewed commitment being inescapable while you are upside down on the finance note.
2) You can turn in that car and lease a new one. This will give you the option to keep your payments as low as they were previously, or as close as the market will reasonably allow. The new car might be a better fit for you than your previous car was, or it might not be, but the integrity of your budget will remain intact to go along with the possibility of the new car being a better fit for you at any price.
3) You can turn in that car and buy a different pre-owned car. The new (to you) car may or may not be an upgrade. The cost may or may not be higher than what it would have cost you to finance your old car. You might choose to upgrade the car since you're going to be paying more anyway. Or you might decide that you'd rather abide by your budget and go for a car that's less expensive but still gets you where you want to go - that way you can save up for the car you really want while still having that beater to get you where you need to go.
This idea that you need to identify an immediate upgrade over DJ in order to even consider parting ways with him is ridiculous. It's entirely reasonable, given DJ's impending FA status, to conclude that the implied increase in cost for DJ's next contract makes him a poor value, and that building the entirety of the roster becomes significantly more difficult if the determined valuation for DJ is exceeded.
For example, let's say DJ is seeking a multi-year contract with an AAV of ~$30M. And then let's consider an alternative, someone like Andy Dalton, who is seeking only $15M AAV, and for fewer years.
Now, in this example, I don't have to conclude that Dalton is an upgrade over Jones in order to conclude that Dalton makes more sense as a placeholder bridge QB, if my actual goal is to draft a rookie QB and develop him behind whichever veteran QB I deploy as my nominal starter for 2023.
The entire "well, who are you going to sign as an upgrade instead?" argument is how you end up signing Nate Solder to an albatross contract when you strike out on Andrew Norwell.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
More or less I agree. I don't see him at the top of the tier you outlined previously. He's more middle to bottom of the tier, imo. When he runs for 85+ we have a great shot to win. When he doesn't we have a toothless attack.
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Yep which tells me they may be ready to move on from him.
The year is 2032. The Giants just hired their 3rd GM since Gettleman retired, and their 5th HC since Joe Judge.
Fans swear this will be the year Jones finally breaks out
I mean did you see Garrett Wilson yesterday. We don't have that. I watched Davante Adams and AJ Brown and Jamarr Chase and Jefferson and Diggs and so on make crazy catches and plays and all I can think is man our WRs are horrible. I mean think about it. Isaiah Hodges couldn't sniff the field for Buffalo and was released. He is our second best WR behind a WR that has a 15.6% drop rate!
actually at 19 seconds it was third and one. They ran JONES to pick up the first with no timeouts and had to spike it at 5 seconds to kick the field goal. It was a play calling disaster, not a reflection on Jones.
Threw two INTs, and lost to a team that Jones beat. Or is that not part of the narrative?
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
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When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
Threw two INTs, and lost to a team that Jones beat. Or is that not part of the narrative?
Jones beat the Vikings?
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In comment 15933940 Amtoft said:
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
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In comment 15934002 Sean said:
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When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
Threw two INTs, and lost to a team that Jones beat. Or is that not part of the narrative?
Jones beat the Vikings?
Oops...for some reason I was thinking Packers. Still...do the two INTs and 26 incompletions during the game enter the equation? Or no, because it's not Jones who threw them?
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In comment 15933968 JonC said:
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In comment 15933940 Amtoft said:
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
So on the last drive in regulation, are you saying that Jones defied Dabs and Kafka and threw deep on his own?
Time and time again we've heard Daboll encourage Jones "if you like the read take the shot."
I’m grading Jones based on his pending free agent status and what he should be paid versus what players like White and Heinicke can do.
There are no narratives here.
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In comment 15934071 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 15933968 JonC said:
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In comment 15933940 Amtoft said:
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
So on the last drive in regulation, are you saying that Jones defied Dabs and Kafka and threw deep on his own?
pretty sure he was talking about the end of the first half. 10 yard, line 19 seconds.
does the coaching staff not trust him or does the coaching staff not trust our interior OL and skill position players?
Huh??????!!?!???
Mike White has played 6 games and has thrown either 2 or 4 interceptions in FOUR of them. (And as I was told on BBI, stats in games a QB loses, especially when they turn the ball over, doesn’t count.)
As someone else said, did you see the TD Garrett Wilson scored yesterday? C’mon people. I can accept people saying that they don’t believe Daniel Jones is good enough. But this horseshit where people pretend that coaching doesn’t matter or talent at the skill positions doesn’t matter is the dumbest shit I’ve ever read on BBI. Enough please.
Time and time again we've heard Daboll encourage Jones "if you like the read take the shot."
Wait...so when he throws deep, it's "we will never know the playcall" but when he runs a QB draw before the half, it's because Dabs doesn't trust him? Just want to understand the rules of debate here.
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In comment 15934080 Ron Johnson said:
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In comment 15934071 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 15933968 JonC said:
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In comment 15933940 Amtoft said:
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
So on the last drive in regulation, are you saying that Jones defied Dabs and Kafka and threw deep on his own?
pretty sure he was talking about the end of the first half. 10 yard, line 19 seconds.
Ron, so we're pretty sure he didn't trust him with 19 seconds in the first half when the game was not on the line, but then with a minute and a half left, he trusted him to throw deep twice and then for the sticks on 3rd and 10, despite Wash having 3 time outs?
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They’d rather take the FG when the games not in the balance than even look toward the end zone.
They’d rather take the FG when the games not in the balance than even look toward the end zone.
Pretzel logic at it's finest.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
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In comment 15934070 rnargi said:
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In comment 15934002 Sean said:
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When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
Threw two INTs, and lost to a team that Jones beat. Or is that not part of the narrative?
Jones beat the Vikings?
Oops...for some reason I was thinking Packers. Still...do the two INTs and 26 incompletions during the game enter the equation? Or no, because it's not Jones who threw them?
I think they do matter, and I see your point, but Jones and White aren't supposed to be interchangeable, are they? Jones is a former #6 overall pick who has been a starter for his entire career since taking over for Eli early in his rookie campaign. White, meanwhile, was chosen 165 selections later in the same draft, and has been a backup QB for nearly his entire career, except for a few spot starts due to injury and/or ineffectiveness.
White will likely make less than $10M next season (and most likely less than $5M unless he somehow ends up in Matt Flynn territory). Jones will likely make more than $20M next season (and probably more like $30M+). If it's just about the supporting cast, aren't you still better off with White at the cheaper price if it allows you to go get the same receivers that White has?
Unless Jones is worth committing to as a bonafide QB1, I think there will be more economical options available as a bridge QB. Neither Jones nor White is elite. And Jones may be a superior QB to White, but he's not 3x better than White, especially if you've determined that neither is the long-term answer.
For the same price and same number of years, I'd absolutely choose DJ. For what I assume will be a very significant difference in price and length of term, I don't think it's so simple.
Anyone against that, and figures he can't improve on what he's show this year with better surroundings is just simply, well, "over him".
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In comment 15934086 rnargi said:
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In comment 15934080 Ron Johnson said:
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In comment 15934071 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 15933968 JonC said:
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In comment 15933940 Amtoft said:
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
So on the last drive in regulation, are you saying that Jones defied Dabs and Kafka and threw deep on his own?
pretty sure he was talking about the end of the first half. 10 yard, line 19 seconds.
Ron, so we're pretty sure he didn't trust him with 19 seconds in the first half when the game was not on the line, but then with a minute and a half left, he trusted him to throw deep twice and then for the sticks on 3rd and 10, despite Wash having 3 time outs?
like the man said: "At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing. "
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Doesn't add up.
Now if you mean he doesn't trust any QB on the roster then your point is taken.
And what calls are you referring to?
If he too scared to let DJ throw a ball into the endzone with no TOs then he should have Taylor QBing the team.
But he doesn't.........
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In comment 15934078 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15934070 rnargi said:
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In comment 15934002 Sean said:
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When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
Threw two INTs, and lost to a team that Jones beat. Or is that not part of the narrative?
Jones beat the Vikings?
Oops...for some reason I was thinking Packers. Still...do the two INTs and 26 incompletions during the game enter the equation? Or no, because it's not Jones who threw them?
I think they do matter, and I see your point, but Jones and White aren't supposed to be interchangeable, are they? Jones is a former #6 overall pick who has been a starter for his entire career since taking over for Eli early in his rookie campaign. White, meanwhile, was chosen 165 selections later in the same draft, and has been a backup QB for nearly his entire career, except for a few spot starts due to injury and/or ineffectiveness.
White will likely make less than $10M next season (and most likely less than $5M unless he somehow ends up in Matt Flynn territory). Jones will likely make more than $20M next season (and probably more like $30M+). If it's just about the supporting cast, aren't you still better off with White at the cheaper price if it allows you to go get the same receivers that White has?
Unless Jones is worth committing to as a bonafide QB1, I think there will be more economical options available as a bridge QB. Neither Jones nor White is elite. And Jones may be a superior QB to White, but he's not 3x better than White, especially if you've determined that neither is the long-term answer.
For the same price and same number of years, I'd absolutely choose DJ. For what I assume will be a very significant difference in price and length of term, I don't think it's so simple.
I'm with you, GD...they do not have the same pedigree as far as draft status. I'm on record that I would take DJ back on a 2 year bridge deal around 15-20M a year. Maybe he will get a better offer. Maybe even from the Commanders. I do not believe there is a college QB we can draft with our draft capital that would be an improvement and there is no UFA better than Jones other than LJ and he's not coming to the Giants. I'm not sold on Jones, but I'm also not sold that he's not better than what his cast allows him to be. He's never had a good OL, and now his WRs and TEs are laughable. I really have no idea. I just don't blame him as much as others do for the team's current malaise.
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When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
The year is 2032. The Giants just hired their 3rd GM since Gettleman retired, and their 5th HC since Joe Judge.
Fans swear this will be the year Jones finally breaks out
Remove Jones from the equation. What QB currently playing throws for 359+ yards and 3+ TD passes for the Giants in that game yesterday?
Anyone against that, and figures he can't improve on what he's show this year with better surroundings is just simply, well, "over him".
DJ as a bridge may not make sense to DJ (or DJ's agent), or to some other team in the NFL willing to pay him to be more than just a bridge QB.
As a free agent, DJ gets a voice in whether or not he agrees that he's a bridge QB. And Schoen & Daboll get a voice in whether or not they agree with DJ's price tag.
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..just makes sense.
Anyone against that, and figures he can't improve on what he's show this year with better surroundings is just simply, well, "over him".
DJ as a bridge may not make sense to DJ (or DJ's agent), or to some other team in the NFL willing to pay him to be more than just a bridge QB.
As a free agent, DJ gets a voice in whether or not he agrees that he's a bridge QB. And Schoen & Daboll get a voice in whether or not they agree with DJ's price tag.
Exactly right.
And as we all know, it takes one dumb team to screw up what would be the best plan.
This nod to stability and tradition, that we must guarantee 3 to 5 years to every QB we draft is such an old school concept.
This nod to stability and tradition, that we must guarantee 3 to 5 years to every QB we draft is such an old school concept.
To go with your concept, who are you picking and what round are you thinking?
Set aside the franchise tag for a moment (which would make this easier).
Why and what numbers would the Giants go "get" Jones?
Would Jones be open to those terms?
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We are better off picking a QB in the draft, who may have a lower floor than Jones but has a higher ceiling. And we don't need 3 years to figure out if he's the guy.
This nod to stability and tradition, that we must guarantee 3 to 5 years to every QB we draft is such an old school concept.
To go with your concept, who are you picking and what round are you thinking?
don't expect an answer to this
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The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
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In comment 15934146 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
Yet you blame it all on Jones. Despite your lying eyes showing you he makes more plays then not with a cast of characters who bring almost nothing to the table at LG C RG WR1 WR2 WR3 TE1 TE2. So blame him. And then you can blame the next guy who comes in and has the same issues. What do you think Hebert's record would be on this team? Why is his team 6-6 and yet to beat a team with a winning record? Why isn't he "putting the team on his back" and just winning? He has infinitely better WRs and a game changing back. Why doesn't HE suck? Because he throws for more yards?
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In comment 15933940 Amtoft said:
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Doesn't add up.
Now if you mean he doesn't trust any QB on the roster then your point is taken.
And what calls are you referring to?
If he too scared to let DJ throw a ball into the endzone with no TOs then he should have Taylor QBing the team.
But he doesn't.........
Most of the 4th quarter and overtime, Daboll (or Kafka with Daboll not overruling him) were painfully conservative. If it doesn't add up for you, I'm not sure what you're watching.
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In comment 15933968 JonC said:
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In comment 15933940 Amtoft said:
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Doesn't add up.
Now if you mean he doesn't trust any QB on the roster then your point is taken.
And what calls are you referring to?
If he too scared to let DJ throw a ball into the endzone with no TOs then he should have Taylor QBing the team.
But he doesn't.........
Most of the 4th quarter and overtime, Daboll (or Kafka with Daboll not overruling him) were painfully conservative. If it doesn't add up for you, I'm not sure what you're watching.
But JC, my contention is that although some of that may be on their comfort level with DJ, it at this point is more on the lack of consistent protection from interior OL, TEs, a good Washington DL (and overall defense) and the WR talent (lack thereof). It's hard to really know how much of that to assign specifically to comfort level with the QB. Man just for once I'd like to see what the QB looks like with a few games of better and more consistent overall pass pro and at least one legit WR. He has shown he can do it, as look at the game he and Toney were having against Dallas last year before he got hurt. I mean he has no Shep and now no Wandale, with our best receiver being someone (in Slayton) who just doesn't cut the mustard.
In the end, this is what he has to work with to earn an extension. And, they need to make a decision based off of it.
Perhaps, the leadership will agree with you and try to reach a short-term deal with him to continue down this path.
Based on what I've seen from Jones over four seasons, it's time to move on. Jones isn't some great mystery waiting to unfold for us. I'd rather spend the $20M or $30M elsewhere and I'd find drafting another QB.
As to whom, I've given names and when scouting ramps up I'll share more. But, I have no fear about letting Jones go. 2023 Giants will look different, as will 2024. Change is inevitable
And put him in the bucket with the other quarterbacks who will be free agents.
I'm assuming we all agree these things are true:
- The QB has never performed at a near pro-bowl level
- The QB has never played with a good pass protecting line
- The QB has never played with good pass targets
- The QB has played with an excellent running back
- The QB has played under a very bad, very good, and very average system
In the abstract, what would you pay this QB?
And put him in the bucket with the other quarterbacks who will be free agents.
I'm assuming we all agree these things are true:
- The QB has never performed at a near pro-bowl level
- The QB has never played with a good pass protecting line
- The QB has never played with good pass targets
- The QB has played with an excellent running back
- The QB has played under a very bad, very good, and very average system
In the abstract, what would you pay this QB?
You simply cannot project a level of performance to a QB who has never displayed that level going into year 5, regardless of context. This isn't a factory building widgets, you cannot assume a scale up will be successful. It is not clear at all that Jones has the talent to scale up his production.
And if we pay Jones assuming he can scale up his production, well that's bad business, and we deserve what we get, making such assumptions.
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I really do think it's helpful to look at Jones through the lens of an unrestricted free agent, which is what he is.
And put him in the bucket with the other quarterbacks who will be free agents.
I'm assuming we all agree these things are true:
- The QB has never performed at a near pro-bowl level
- The QB has never played with a good pass protecting line
- The QB has never played with good pass targets
- The QB has played with an excellent running back
- The QB has played under a very bad, very good, and very average system
In the abstract, what would you pay this QB?
You simply cannot project a level of performance to a QB who has never displayed that level going into year 5, regardless of context. This isn't a factory building widgets, you cannot assume a scale up will be successful. It is not clear at all that Jones has the talent to scale up his production.
And if we pay Jones assuming he can scale up his production, well that's bad business, and we deserve what we get, making such assumptions.
^ Is that a response to the question I posed?
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In comment 15934468 christian said:
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I really do think it's helpful to look at Jones through the lens of an unrestricted free agent, which is what he is.
And put him in the bucket with the other quarterbacks who will be free agents.
I'm assuming we all agree these things are true:
- The QB has never performed at a near pro-bowl level
- The QB has never played with a good pass protecting line
- The QB has never played with good pass targets
- The QB has played with an excellent running back
- The QB has played under a very bad, very good, and very average system
In the abstract, what would you pay this QB?
You simply cannot project a level of performance to a QB who has never displayed that level going into year 5, regardless of context. This isn't a factory building widgets, you cannot assume a scale up will be successful. It is not clear at all that Jones has the talent to scale up his production.
And if we pay Jones assuming he can scale up his production, well that's bad business, and we deserve what we get, making such assumptions.
^ Is that a response to the question I posed?
I think you're asking the wrong question. I don't want Jones to be our QB at any price. The time we are wasting with him is more valuable than the dollars we might pay him. Sign me up for any 1st, 2nd or 3rd round QB who might have a higher ceiling.
Why are we talking about paying Jones anything. He is a limited QB with a limited ceiling. The name of the game is to win Super Bowls, not to get the best price on a limited QB.
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In comment 15933968 JonC said:
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In comment 15933940 Amtoft said:
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Doesn't add up.
Now if you mean he doesn't trust any QB on the roster then your point is taken.
And what calls are you referring to?
If he too scared to let DJ throw a ball into the endzone with no TOs then he should have Taylor QBing the team.
But he doesn't.........
Most of the 4th quarter and overtime, Daboll (or Kafka with Daboll not overruling him) were painfully conservative. If it doesn't add up for you, I'm not sure what you're watching.
So why not put Taylor in?
He's a vet QB who has taken a team to the playoffs?
I mean, is that the way you'd coach? Play the guy you don't trust?
And you haven't even included that Jones doesn't really know what "open" is in the NFL. If you have a half of a step, you are open in the NFL. Occasionally, Jones will attempt and hit that throw, but usually he won't take the chance.
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he's left a lot of throws and plays on the field. Basically, if you watched a game with a football coach, and they walked you through as they chart a Jones performance, there would be consistent missed open throws, too slow to process a play and too quick taking the checkdown, lost pass rush feel in the pocket, bad RPO reads, etc. On almost any pass play in football there's an open receiver to be found, and Jones often misses it unless it's an easy one. Some of it is the lack of talent around him, some is his average skillset and passer instincts. He's a good runner but a very average passer. We're so starved for a winner we forget what it looks like after awhile, and I wouldn't hitch the wagon at $20M+ AAV to him. YMMV.
And you haven't even included that Jones doesn't really know what "open" is in the NFL. If you have a half of a step, you are open in the NFL. Occasionally, Jones will attempt and hit that throw, but usually he won't take the chance.
True. My friend asked me where are the slants, the digs, the sideline throws. I told him they're very likely avoiding them because of the turnover fear. So they try to lean on the run game, use small ball passing offense, move the chains, possess the football, try to keep the clock and field position in their favor. Again, partly due to personnel and partly due to using the QB to his strengths.
I was there too.
That's a long ramble that I think translates that we are still having issues with pass blocking and getting guys open, hence the play calling we both witnessed.
They are protecting Jones from getting blown up, rather than not trusting his abilities.
Yours as well, but again to me, DJ is a strength (relatively speaking) on this team versus what other guys are doing out there.
He's no stud, but worth bridging if the money is right which I am not sure happens.
In fact, I'm more on spending the money on DJ and letting Barkley walk.
I'd agree Jones is probably a better bridge option than Taylor at this point, but they're both still bridge options imv. Don't be afraid to aim higher and pull the trigger, even if it's a draft pick. Staying with the ugly girl because you don't want to be alone sucks.
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In comment 15934161 rnargi said:
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In comment 15934146 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
Yet you blame it all on Jones. Despite your lying eyes showing you he makes more plays then not with a cast of characters who bring almost nothing to the table at LG C RG WR1 WR2 WR3 TE1 TE2. So blame him. And then you can blame the next guy who comes in and has the same issues. What do you think Hebert's record would be on this team? Why is his team 6-6 and yet to beat a team with a winning record? Why isn't he "putting the team on his back" and just winning? He has infinitely better WRs and a game changing back. Why doesn't HE suck? Because he throws for more yards?
Herbert looks less himself this year because those infinitely better WRs are consistently hurt. And yet, no one is questioning his ability to have a future in the NFL as a starter, because the skills are visible and the process that would lead to success if they had capable healthy WRs is there even if the results are not. This is not the case with Jones.
You are mad at things that other people say, not with me.
As for Jones, I don't blame him for anything. It's not his fault he was overdrafted and doesn't have a high end set of skills. I do blame fans who have witnessed good QB play even without good supporting talent before. Many of you have seen it and know what it looks like, but many of you are either entrenched in wanting to be right or entrenched in the emotion of wanting to hold on to what looks like hope and potential at QB. "If he just had X, he might be very good"
That ship has sailed. Blame the Giants for mismanagement. We will probably never know how good he could have been if they hadn't wasted 4 years with instability and ineptitude. Unfortunately that is the story of many 1st round QBs.
I'd agree Jones is probably a better bridge option than Taylor at this point, but they're both still bridge options imv. Don't be afraid to aim higher and pull the trigger, even if it's a draft pick. Staying with the ugly girl because you don't want to be alone sucks.
I agree with DJ being the better bridge, hence my desired option.
Jones is Alex Smith 2.0 as others have termed. That only takes you so far.
However, concerning Barkley, there are good RBs to be had all over the country. I'm not sure I want to invest anymore than one more season in him - and start searching for his replacement pronto.
Barkley makes it go because when he's running it well, that opens things up - that's football 101. If you can run the ball the entire playbook is open.
As well as Barkley has done this season (mostly first half), I'm dissapointed in his involvement in the passing game (again - protecting DJ) and I just think you can get a near comparable player and a huge discount (ie the draft).
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In comment 15934333 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 15934161 rnargi said:
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In comment 15934146 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
Yet you blame it all on Jones. Despite your lying eyes showing you he makes more plays then not with a cast of characters who bring almost nothing to the table at LG C RG WR1 WR2 WR3 TE1 TE2. So blame him. And then you can blame the next guy who comes in and has the same issues. What do you think Hebert's record would be on this team? Why is his team 6-6 and yet to beat a team with a winning record? Why isn't he "putting the team on his back" and just winning? He has infinitely better WRs and a game changing back. Why doesn't HE suck? Because he throws for more yards?
Herbert looks less himself this year because those infinitely better WRs are consistently hurt. And yet, no one is questioning his ability to have a future in the NFL as a starter, because the skills are visible and the process that would lead to success if they had capable healthy WRs is there even if the results are not. This is not the case with Jones.
You are mad at things that other people say, not with me.
As for Jones, I don't blame him for anything. It's not his fault he was overdrafted and doesn't have a high end set of skills. I do blame fans who have witnessed good QB play even without good supporting talent before. Many of you have seen it and know what it looks like, but many of you are either entrenched in wanting to be right or entrenched in the emotion of wanting to hold on to what looks like hope and potential at QB. "If he just had X, he might be very good"
That ship has sailed. Blame the Giants for mismanagement. We will probably never know how good he could have been if they hadn't wasted 4 years with instability and ineptitude. Unfortunately that is the story of many 1st round QBs.
T...I'm not mad about anything. I'm on record saying I just don't know. I've been watching the Giants since the days of Norm Snead and earlier. Ive seen a lot of good and bad QB play. I remember when Simms was almost jettisoned for many of the same reasons some want to jettison Jones. I'm not sold on Jones. But I'm still intrigued. It's hard to pinpoint. He very well may be exactly what the detractors say he is. I know it sounds like excuses. That's not where I am. I'm not excusing any of his faults..which he has. But we can agree there are reasons he hasn't been able to reach any potential that may be there, which we've also glimpsed. I don't know the answer. Which is why, with the roster so lacking, I don't think a QB change will reult in changing the calculus. A bridge deal, if it can be done, seems to me to be the logical choice as the roster is rebuilt. I very well could be wrong, but I'm not angry or mad. The team will take a step back next year, maybe even if Jones stays. But i don't see the potential for drafting a difference maker at QB and would rather put resources in the lines, LB, and WR. Just my thought process on the current situation. Peace bro, I'm just stating my opinion.
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In comment 15934363 rnargi said:
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In comment 15934333 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 15934161 rnargi said:
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In comment 15934146 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
Yet you blame it all on Jones. Despite your lying eyes showing you he makes more plays then not with a cast of characters who bring almost nothing to the table at LG C RG WR1 WR2 WR3 TE1 TE2. So blame him. And then you can blame the next guy who comes in and has the same issues. What do you think Hebert's record would be on this team? Why is his team 6-6 and yet to beat a team with a winning record? Why isn't he "putting the team on his back" and just winning? He has infinitely better WRs and a game changing back. Why doesn't HE suck? Because he throws for more yards?
Herbert looks less himself this year because those infinitely better WRs are consistently hurt. And yet, no one is questioning his ability to have a future in the NFL as a starter, because the skills are visible and the process that would lead to success if they had capable healthy WRs is there even if the results are not. This is not the case with Jones.
You are mad at things that other people say, not with me.
As for Jones, I don't blame him for anything. It's not his fault he was overdrafted and doesn't have a high end set of skills. I do blame fans who have witnessed good QB play even without good supporting talent before. Many of you have seen it and know what it looks like, but many of you are either entrenched in wanting to be right or entrenched in the emotion of wanting to hold on to what looks like hope and potential at QB. "If he just had X, he might be very good"
That ship has sailed. Blame the Giants for mismanagement. We will probably never know how good he could have been if they hadn't wasted 4 years with instability and ineptitude. Unfortunately that is the story of many 1st round QBs.
T...I'm not mad about anything. I'm on record saying I just don't know. I've been watching the Giants since the days of Norm Snead and earlier. Ive seen a lot of good and bad QB play. I remember when Simms was almost jettisoned for many of the same reasons some want to jettison Jones. I'm not sold on Jones. But I'm still intrigued. It's hard to pinpoint. He very well may be exactly what the detractors say he is. I know it sounds like excuses. That's not where I am. I'm not excusing any of his faults..which he has. But we can agree there are reasons he hasn't been able to reach any potential that may be there, which we've also glimpsed. I don't know the answer. Which is why, with the roster so lacking, I don't think a QB change will reult in changing the calculus. A bridge deal, if it can be done, seems to me to be the logical choice as the roster is rebuilt. I very well could be wrong, but I'm not angry or mad. The team will take a step back next year, maybe even if Jones stays. But i don't see the potential for drafting a difference maker at QB and would rather put resources in the lines, LB, and WR. Just my thought process on the current situation. Peace bro, I'm just stating my opinion.
This is the best post on this entire thread. The OP has become insufferable. I'll prob get banned now for that. It's been real, BBI. lol
You honestly think if Jones had one truly legit WR his nunbers would not be better? Look at the WR corps of those in the top 10
Fair enough. And again, I'm on record in a multitude of threads that I would give him a bridge deal. Nothing long term at this juncture.
Lol.
T...I'm not mad about anything. I'm on record saying I just don't know. I've been watching the Giants since the days of Norm Snead and earlier. Ive seen a lot of good and bad QB play. I remember when Simms was almost jettisoned for many of the same reasons some want to jettison Jones. I'm not sold on Jones. But I'm still intrigued. It's hard to pinpoint. He very well may be exactly what the detractors say he is. I know it sounds like excuses. That's not where I am. I'm not excusing any of his faults..which he has. But we can agree there are reasons he hasn't been able to reach any potential that may be there, which we've also glimpsed. I don't know the answer. Which is why, with the roster so lacking, I don't think a QB change will reult in changing the calculus. A bridge deal, if it can be done, seems to me to be the logical choice as the roster is rebuilt. I very well could be wrong, but I'm not angry or mad. The team will take a step back next year, maybe even if Jones stays. But i don't see the potential for drafting a difference maker at QB and would rather put resources in the lines, LB, and WR. Just my thought process on the current situation. Peace bro, I'm just stating my opinion.
Rob, I agree with everything except that the Giants would take a step back next year even with Jones. I think him and the team will be better with a better cast around him. Good enough? IDK