What ifs are meaningless. If Slayton catches that ball or they convert the 3rd and 2 you have no idea what happens on the next play, it’s the fallacy of the pre determined outcome. What if the next play was a turnover?
We can only grade on the plays that actually happened
It’s not a fallacy of a predetermined outcome to say that his surrounding cast leaves a bit to be desired. If his surrounding cast is better, his stats would be better.
Now maybe that “better” still isn’t good enough. I’m not sold on the guy either, but fair is fair.
I’m not sold on the guy either but
It was about two plays that they didn’t execute. What if he doesn’t fumble early on? What if he makes a better throw down the sideline and it forced the ref to call the pass interference on Slayton? We can do this all day, it’s pointless.
RE: RE: RE: BBI overreacts like a spoiled kid high on sugar having his lolly taken
Jones wasn't why we lost today. Oh wait, we didn't lose at all! We missed a game winning field goal that could easily have gone in and tied. This hurts the Skins much more than it hurts us.
Glad gidie switched sides. Now we can really enjoy it when Schoen re-signs Jones in the offseason and BBI turns into even a bigger joke of bad takes.
The case for Jones has always included that he's got "x game winning drives' in his career.
He had three chances to do just that and never got out of the parking lot.
In a game in which many people here indicated was a "big game-maybe the biggest of his career yet" he did what?
He threw a strike to Slayton and he dropped it?
On first down. How'd the rest of the attempted game winning drive go?
drive go?
We can sit here all day and talk about other players not supporting him or disscting plays not made, Jones is out of time. There are 5 games left and what happens in December matters a lot more than October.
The NFL isn't fair and conditions aren't always going to be optimal. That offense was a sick and wounded animal in the second half. They had nothing. At no point were they a serious threat to put the game away and frankly they haven't done that at all this year.
There are 5 games left. 7-2 has turned to 7-5. Barkley carried them as far as he could. Is Jones going to do any carrying or is the expectation that Barkley needs to be everything and Jones just needs to show up for work to get the credit?
We only have 4 comeback wins this year - I'm guessing that was in spite of Jones because the staff CLEARLY doesn't trust him with the game on the line.
Then again, it wasn't too long ago we were regaled by these same bozos about how Jones has never been good at any level of play extending back to youth football.
I just wonder what motivates these takes, said with such confidence.
Oh here you are, insisting on being wrong as always. Slink away.
The last line is even funnier when you realize it’s coming from one of biggest Gettleman simps on this board.
It was about two plays that they didn’t execute. What if he doesn’t fumble early on? What if he makes a better throw down the sideline and it forced the ref to call the pass interference on Slayton? We can do this all day, it’s pointless.
The discussion is as usual about Daniel Jones and his future as a Giants player.
I know you think we should just let him go, I’ve read your posts on the topic. But if you let him go, someone has to play the position. I assume you want to also let Barkley go so that would mean we need:
QB1, RB1, WR1, WR2, Starting interior lineman or 2, MLB or 2, and a CB2. That seems like a lot to me. I wonder if we are not better served by re-signing Jones to something like 3/60, tagging Barkley, and using draft picks/FA to fill the other holes.
would be 9-2. They would have won this game and the home Dallas game. They are missing what he gives you in the blocking and getting open to extend drives.
Tagging Barkley still means we have about 8 other holes to fill. I think most everyone wants the Giants to win more consistently. We’re just discussing the best way to make that happen.
To be a fly in Joe Schoen’s office is the only way we’re going to find out prior to spring 2023.
I’d just like to know the name of a QB who finds himself in a similar situation as Daniel Jones, yet is producing at a level superior to him. Who’s this QB?
I’d just like to know the name of a QB who finds himself in a similar situation as Daniel Jones, yet is producing at a level superior to him. Who’s this QB?
There are 31 other teams in this league. Which one would want to better themselves by adding Daniel Jones to their starting roster? Who's that team?
I give Schoen and Daboll one shot at drafting a QB. Once they do they have 2 years to get to the playoffs. If they don't and DJ goes elsewhere and is successful, then it is time to change the guard again.
I’d just like to know the name of a QB who finds himself in a similar situation as Daniel Jones, yet is producing at a level superior to him. Who’s this QB?
There are 31 other teams in this league. Which one would want to better themselves by adding Daniel Jones to their starting roster? Who's that team?
We will find out this off season. Meanwhile, I really do not care what the answer is to that question. What I want to know (and you can be the first to answer this question), what free agent QB are we signing to upgrade the QB position? If your plan is to do it through the draft, which QB are we taking after the 10th pick in the draft?
I’d just like to know the name of a QB who finds himself in a similar situation as Daniel Jones, yet is producing at a level superior to him. Who’s this QB?
There are 31 other teams in this league. Which one would want to better themselves by adding Daniel Jones to their starting roster? Who's that team?
The answer to the question you asked is >0.
I’m still looking for the name of just 1 QB who people feel is productive in a situation similar to Daniel Jones. It’s simply not feasible to produce at a decent rate when the receivers are couch guys and the interior of the OL makes it impossible to run a normal passing offense. We’ve seen guys succeed at the highest levels without one or the other, but not both.
If you think the next QB is going to show up and turn chickenshit into chicken soup, you’ll be in threads complaining about that guy too.
I give Schoen and Daboll one shot at drafting a QB. Once they do they have 2 years to get to the playoffs. If they don't and DJ goes elsewhere and is successful, then it is time to change the guard again.
I think this is exactly where I am at as well. Barkley is a very nice running back. Maybe you tag him just to get another year. But I would pass long term. The OBJ talk is insanity.
I see Jones as a decent QB. His talent has won games for the Giants. Unfortunately, through lack of surrounding talent or lack of personal talent his throwing numbers are blah.
If the Giants make the playoffs, I think Jones will be back. In that scenario, the Giants will be picking 20th or later. They will be well out of range of a QB that Daboll and Schoen can hitch their careers too. I do not see them dumping Jones and crossing their fingers with a QB drafted outside of the top 10.
I give Schoen and Daboll one shot at drafting a QB. Once they do they have 2 years to get to the playoffs. If they don't and DJ goes elsewhere and is successful, then it is time to change the guard again.
I think this is exactly where I am at as well. Barkley is a very nice running back. Maybe you tag him just to get another year. But I would pass long term. The OBJ talk is insanity.
I see Jones as a decent QB. His talent has won games for the Giants. Unfortunately, through lack of surrounding talent or lack of personal talent his throwing numbers are blah.
If the Giants make the playoffs, I think Jones will be back. In that scenario, the Giants will be picking 20th or later. They will be well out of range of a QB that Daboll and Schoen can hitch their careers too. I do not see them dumping Jones and crossing their fingers with a QB drafted outside of the top 10.
In my view the defense has been the reason he's been able to win games. There isn't very much required of him. Only that he is able to execute one or two full drives a game. That is not a very high bar in my opinion. If he needs three he can't do it. Yesterday he gave up any advantage the Giants had in the first quarter -- turnover then a quickly stalled drive that led to 3 and 7 points -- he had to execute 1 full drive jus to mitigate that. Then he had one other full drive after that.
Weak!
RE: RE: RE: There are 31 other teams in the league.
I’d just like to know the name of a QB who finds himself in a similar situation as Daniel Jones, yet is producing at a level superior to him. Who’s this QB?
There are 31 other teams in this league. Which one would want to better themselves by adding Daniel Jones to their starting roster? Who's that team?
We will find out this off season. Meanwhile, I really do not care what the answer is to that question. What I want to know (and you can be the first to answer this question), what free agent QB are we signing to upgrade the QB position? If your plan is to do it through the draft, which QB are we taking after the 10th pick in the draft?
If you're leasing a car, and the end of the lease is approaching, you have a few options, right?
1) You can buy the car coming off lease. Your payments will increase substantially and your commitment to the car will be for a longer period of time, with some stretch of time near the start of that renewed commitment being inescapable while you are upside down on the finance note.
2) You can turn in that car and lease a new one. This will give you the option to keep your payments as low as they were previously, or as close as the market will reasonably allow. The new car might be a better fit for you than your previous car was, or it might not be, but the integrity of your budget will remain intact to go along with the possibility of the new car being a better fit for you at any price.
3) You can turn in that car and buy a different pre-owned car. The new (to you) car may or may not be an upgrade. The cost may or may not be higher than what it would have cost you to finance your old car. You might choose to upgrade the car since you're going to be paying more anyway. Or you might decide that you'd rather abide by your budget and go for a car that's less expensive but still gets you where you want to go - that way you can save up for the car you really want while still having that beater to get you where you need to go.
This idea that you need to identify an immediate upgrade over DJ in order to even consider parting ways with him is ridiculous. It's entirely reasonable, given DJ's impending FA status, to conclude that the implied increase in cost for DJ's next contract makes him a poor value, and that building the entirety of the roster becomes significantly more difficult if the determined valuation for DJ is exceeded.
For example, let's say DJ is seeking a multi-year contract with an AAV of ~$30M. And then let's consider an alternative, someone like Andy Dalton, who is seeking only $15M AAV, and for fewer years.
Now, in this example, I don't have to conclude that Dalton is an upgrade over Jones in order to conclude that Dalton makes more sense as a placeholder bridge QB, if my actual goal is to draft a rookie QB and develop him behind whichever veteran QB I deploy as my nominal starter for 2023.
The entire "well, who are you going to sign as an upgrade instead?" argument is how you end up signing Nate Solder to an albatross contract when you strike out on Andrew Norwell.
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
As I said on one of the other 15 threads - IMO Jones is a JAG
just another middling QB who manages games. He does more with his legs, but less with his arm, then others. I think we could easily replace him with one of 15 QBs and the results would be similar.
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
RE: As I said on one of the other 15 threads - IMO Jones is a JAG
just another middling QB who manages games. He does more with his legs, but less with his arm, then others. I think we could easily replace him with one of 15 QBs and the results would be similar.
More or less I agree. I don't see him at the top of the tier you outlined previously. He's more middle to bottom of the tier, imo. When he runs for 85+ we have a great shot to win. When he doesn't we have a toothless attack.
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Yep which tells me they may be ready to move on from him.
Mike White threw for 359 yards and made some big time throws
When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
I mean did you see Garrett Wilson yesterday. We don't have that. I watched Davante Adams and AJ Brown and Jamarr Chase and Jefferson and Diggs and so on make crazy catches and plays and all I can think is man our WRs are horrible. I mean think about it. Isaiah Hodges couldn't sniff the field for Buffalo and was released. He is our second best WR behind a WR that has a 15.6% drop rate!
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
actually at 19 seconds it was third and one. They ran JONES to pick up the first with no timeouts and had to spike it at 5 seconds to kick the field goal. It was a play calling disaster, not a reflection on Jones.
RE: Mike White threw for 359 yards and made some big time throws
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
RE: RE: Mike White threw for 359 yards and made some big time throws
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
RE: RE: RE: Mike White threw for 359 yards and made some big time throws
When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
Threw two INTs, and lost to a team that Jones beat. Or is that not part of the narrative?
Jones beat the Vikings?
Oops...for some reason I was thinking Packers. Still...do the two INTs and 26 incompletions during the game enter the equation? Or no, because it's not Jones who threw them?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Here is my only problem with Jones
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
So on the last drive in regulation, are you saying that Jones defied Dabs and Kafka and threw deep on his own?
It's not an act of defiance. Quarterbacks are allowed to change plays
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
So on the last drive in regulation, are you saying that Jones defied Dabs and Kafka and threw deep on his own?
pretty sure he was talking about the end of the first half. 10 yard, line 19 seconds.
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
does the coaching staff not trust him or does the coaching staff not trust our interior OL and skill position players?
RE: Mike White threw for 359 yards and made some big time throws
When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
Huh??????!!?!???
Mike White has played 6 games and has thrown either 2 or 4 interceptions in FOUR of them. (And as I was told on BBI, stats in games a QB loses, especially when they turn the ball over, doesn’t count.)
As someone else said, did you see the TD Garrett Wilson scored yesterday? C’mon people. I can accept people saying that they don’t believe Daniel Jones is good enough. But this horseshit where people pretend that coaching doesn’t matter or talent at the skill positions doesn’t matter is the dumbest shit I’ve ever read on BBI. Enough please.
RE: It's not an act of defiance. Quarterbacks are allowed to change plays
But we will never know what the original playcall is.
Time and time again we've heard Daboll encourage Jones "if you like the read take the shot."
Wait...so when he throws deep, it's "we will never know the playcall" but when he runs a QB draw before the half, it's because Dabs doesn't trust him? Just want to understand the rules of debate here.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Here is my only problem with Jones
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
So on the last drive in regulation, are you saying that Jones defied Dabs and Kafka and threw deep on his own?
pretty sure he was talking about the end of the first half. 10 yard, line 19 seconds.
Ron, so we're pretty sure he didn't trust him with 19 seconds in the first half when the game was not on the line, but then with a minute and a half left, he trusted him to throw deep twice and then for the sticks on 3rd and 10, despite Wash having 3 time outs?
I've been pretty consistent that I dont think the coaches trust him.
The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Mike White threw for 359 yards and made some big time throws
When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
Threw two INTs, and lost to a team that Jones beat. Or is that not part of the narrative?
Jones beat the Vikings?
Oops...for some reason I was thinking Packers. Still...do the two INTs and 26 incompletions during the game enter the equation? Or no, because it's not Jones who threw them?
I think they do matter, and I see your point, but Jones and White aren't supposed to be interchangeable, are they? Jones is a former #6 overall pick who has been a starter for his entire career since taking over for Eli early in his rookie campaign. White, meanwhile, was chosen 165 selections later in the same draft, and has been a backup QB for nearly his entire career, except for a few spot starts due to injury and/or ineffectiveness.
White will likely make less than $10M next season (and most likely less than $5M unless he somehow ends up in Matt Flynn territory). Jones will likely make more than $20M next season (and probably more like $30M+). If it's just about the supporting cast, aren't you still better off with White at the cheaper price if it allows you to go get the same receivers that White has?
Unless Jones is worth committing to as a bonafide QB1, I think there will be more economical options available as a bridge QB. Neither Jones nor White is elite. And Jones may be a superior QB to White, but he's not 3x better than White, especially if you've determined that neither is the long-term answer.
For the same price and same number of years, I'd absolutely choose DJ. For what I assume will be a very significant difference in price and length of term, I don't think it's so simple.
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
So on the last drive in regulation, are you saying that Jones defied Dabs and Kafka and threw deep on his own?
pretty sure he was talking about the end of the first half. 10 yard, line 19 seconds.
Ron, so we're pretty sure he didn't trust him with 19 seconds in the first half when the game was not on the line, but then with a minute and a half left, he trusted him to throw deep twice and then for the sticks on 3rd and 10, despite Wash having 3 time outs?
like the man said: "At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing. "
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Doesn't add up.
Now if you mean he doesn't trust any QB on the roster then your point is taken.
And what calls are you referring to?
If he too scared to let DJ throw a ball into the endzone with no TOs then he should have Taylor QBing the team.
But he doesn't.........
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Mike White threw for 359 yards and made some big time throws
When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
Threw two INTs, and lost to a team that Jones beat. Or is that not part of the narrative?
Jones beat the Vikings?
Oops...for some reason I was thinking Packers. Still...do the two INTs and 26 incompletions during the game enter the equation? Or no, because it's not Jones who threw them?
I think they do matter, and I see your point, but Jones and White aren't supposed to be interchangeable, are they? Jones is a former #6 overall pick who has been a starter for his entire career since taking over for Eli early in his rookie campaign. White, meanwhile, was chosen 165 selections later in the same draft, and has been a backup QB for nearly his entire career, except for a few spot starts due to injury and/or ineffectiveness.
White will likely make less than $10M next season (and most likely less than $5M unless he somehow ends up in Matt Flynn territory). Jones will likely make more than $20M next season (and probably more like $30M+). If it's just about the supporting cast, aren't you still better off with White at the cheaper price if it allows you to go get the same receivers that White has?
Unless Jones is worth committing to as a bonafide QB1, I think there will be more economical options available as a bridge QB. Neither Jones nor White is elite. And Jones may be a superior QB to White, but he's not 3x better than White, especially if you've determined that neither is the long-term answer.
For the same price and same number of years, I'd absolutely choose DJ. For what I assume will be a very significant difference in price and length of term, I don't think it's so simple.
I'm with you, GD...they do not have the same pedigree as far as draft status. I'm on record that I would take DJ back on a 2 year bridge deal around 15-20M a year. Maybe he will get a better offer. Maybe even from the Commanders. I do not believe there is a college QB we can draft with our draft capital that would be an improvement and there is no UFA better than Jones other than LJ and he's not coming to the Giants. I'm not sold on Jones, but I'm also not sold that he's not better than what his cast allows him to be. He's never had a good OL, and now his WRs and TEs are laughable. I really have no idea. I just don't blame him as much as others do for the team's current malaise.
We can only grade on the plays that actually happened
It’s not a fallacy of a predetermined outcome to say that his surrounding cast leaves a bit to be desired. If his surrounding cast is better, his stats would be better.
Now maybe that “better” still isn’t good enough. I’m not sold on the guy either, but fair is fair.
I’m not sold on the guy either but
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In comment 15933254 adamg said:
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away.
Jones wasn't why we lost today. Oh wait, we didn't lose at all! We missed a game winning field goal that could easily have gone in and tied. This hurts the Skins much more than it hurts us.
Glad gidie switched sides. Now we can really enjoy it when Schoen re-signs Jones in the offseason and BBI turns into even a bigger joke of bad takes.
The case for Jones has always included that he's got "x game winning drives' in his career.
He had three chances to do just that and never got out of the parking lot.
In a game in which many people here indicated was a "big game-maybe the biggest of his career yet" he did what?
He threw a strike to Slayton and he dropped it?
On first down. How'd the rest of the attempted game winning drive go?
drive go?
We can sit here all day and talk about other players not supporting him or disscting plays not made, Jones is out of time. There are 5 games left and what happens in December matters a lot more than October.
The NFL isn't fair and conditions aren't always going to be optimal. That offense was a sick and wounded animal in the second half. They had nothing. At no point were they a serious threat to put the game away and frankly they haven't done that at all this year.
There are 5 games left. 7-2 has turned to 7-5. Barkley carried them as far as he could. Is Jones going to do any carrying or is the expectation that Barkley needs to be everything and Jones just needs to show up for work to get the credit?
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is a folly of the clueless.
We only have 4 comeback wins this year - I'm guessing that was in spite of Jones because the staff CLEARLY doesn't trust him with the game on the line.
Then again, it wasn't too long ago we were regaled by these same bozos about how Jones has never been good at any level of play extending back to youth football.
I just wonder what motivates these takes, said with such confidence.
Oh here you are, insisting on being wrong as always. Slink away.
The last line is even funnier when you realize it’s coming from one of biggest Gettleman simps on this board.
The discussion is as usual about Daniel Jones and his future as a Giants player.
I know you think we should just let him go, I’ve read your posts on the topic. But if you let him go, someone has to play the position. I assume you want to also let Barkley go so that would mean we need:
QB1, RB1, WR1, WR2, Starting interior lineman or 2, MLB or 2, and a CB2. That seems like a lot to me. I wonder if we are not better served by re-signing Jones to something like 3/60, tagging Barkley, and using draft picks/FA to fill the other holes.
Tagging Barkley still means we have about 8 other holes to fill. I think most everyone wants the Giants to win more consistently. We’re just discussing the best way to make that happen.
To be a fly in Joe Schoen’s office is the only way we’re going to find out prior to spring 2023.
There are 31 other teams in this league. Which one would want to better themselves by adding Daniel Jones to their starting roster? Who's that team?
I am still on the fence with DJ.
I give Schoen and Daboll one shot at drafting a QB. Once they do they have 2 years to get to the playoffs. If they don't and DJ goes elsewhere and is successful, then it is time to change the guard again.
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I’d just like to know the name of a QB who finds himself in a similar situation as Daniel Jones, yet is producing at a level superior to him. Who’s this QB?
There are 31 other teams in this league. Which one would want to better themselves by adding Daniel Jones to their starting roster? Who's that team?
We will find out this off season. Meanwhile, I really do not care what the answer is to that question. What I want to know (and you can be the first to answer this question), what free agent QB are we signing to upgrade the QB position? If your plan is to do it through the draft, which QB are we taking after the 10th pick in the draft?
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I’d just like to know the name of a QB who finds himself in a similar situation as Daniel Jones, yet is producing at a level superior to him. Who’s this QB?
There are 31 other teams in this league. Which one would want to better themselves by adding Daniel Jones to their starting roster? Who's that team?
The answer to the question you asked is >0.
I’m still looking for the name of just 1 QB who people feel is productive in a situation similar to Daniel Jones. It’s simply not feasible to produce at a decent rate when the receivers are couch guys and the interior of the OL makes it impossible to run a normal passing offense. We’ve seen guys succeed at the highest levels without one or the other, but not both.
If you think the next QB is going to show up and turn chickenshit into chicken soup, you’ll be in threads complaining about that guy too.
I am still on the fence with DJ.
I give Schoen and Daboll one shot at drafting a QB. Once they do they have 2 years to get to the playoffs. If they don't and DJ goes elsewhere and is successful, then it is time to change the guard again.
I think this is exactly where I am at as well. Barkley is a very nice running back. Maybe you tag him just to get another year. But I would pass long term. The OBJ talk is insanity.
I see Jones as a decent QB. His talent has won games for the Giants. Unfortunately, through lack of surrounding talent or lack of personal talent his throwing numbers are blah.
If the Giants make the playoffs, I think Jones will be back. In that scenario, the Giants will be picking 20th or later. They will be well out of range of a QB that Daboll and Schoen can hitch their careers too. I do not see them dumping Jones and crossing their fingers with a QB drafted outside of the top 10.
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In comment 15932292 rnargi said:
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James playing Kestone Kop. Jones fault.
Slaton dropping the deep ball. Jones fault.
Interior line turnstyling. Jones fault.
DEF giving up a 90 yard game tying TD drive in the closing minute. Jones fault.
How much are you willing to pay DJ, and for how long?
Without that, your excuses are tired.
Who is talking about future $$? This is about the game today and blaming him.
In case you were unaware, DJ is a free agent after this season. The future money is the only thing relevant about determining blame with regard to DJ.
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Barkley and the thought of bringing back OBJ.
I am still on the fence with DJ.
I give Schoen and Daboll one shot at drafting a QB. Once they do they have 2 years to get to the playoffs. If they don't and DJ goes elsewhere and is successful, then it is time to change the guard again.
I think this is exactly where I am at as well. Barkley is a very nice running back. Maybe you tag him just to get another year. But I would pass long term. The OBJ talk is insanity.
I see Jones as a decent QB. His talent has won games for the Giants. Unfortunately, through lack of surrounding talent or lack of personal talent his throwing numbers are blah.
If the Giants make the playoffs, I think Jones will be back. In that scenario, the Giants will be picking 20th or later. They will be well out of range of a QB that Daboll and Schoen can hitch their careers too. I do not see them dumping Jones and crossing their fingers with a QB drafted outside of the top 10.
In my view the defense has been the reason he's been able to win games. There isn't very much required of him. Only that he is able to execute one or two full drives a game. That is not a very high bar in my opinion. If he needs three he can't do it. Yesterday he gave up any advantage the Giants had in the first quarter -- turnover then a quickly stalled drive that led to 3 and 7 points -- he had to execute 1 full drive jus to mitigate that. Then he had one other full drive after that.
Weak!
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In comment 15933356 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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I’d just like to know the name of a QB who finds himself in a similar situation as Daniel Jones, yet is producing at a level superior to him. Who’s this QB?
There are 31 other teams in this league. Which one would want to better themselves by adding Daniel Jones to their starting roster? Who's that team?
We will find out this off season. Meanwhile, I really do not care what the answer is to that question. What I want to know (and you can be the first to answer this question), what free agent QB are we signing to upgrade the QB position? If your plan is to do it through the draft, which QB are we taking after the 10th pick in the draft?
If you're leasing a car, and the end of the lease is approaching, you have a few options, right?
1) You can buy the car coming off lease. Your payments will increase substantially and your commitment to the car will be for a longer period of time, with some stretch of time near the start of that renewed commitment being inescapable while you are upside down on the finance note.
2) You can turn in that car and lease a new one. This will give you the option to keep your payments as low as they were previously, or as close as the market will reasonably allow. The new car might be a better fit for you than your previous car was, or it might not be, but the integrity of your budget will remain intact to go along with the possibility of the new car being a better fit for you at any price.
3) You can turn in that car and buy a different pre-owned car. The new (to you) car may or may not be an upgrade. The cost may or may not be higher than what it would have cost you to finance your old car. You might choose to upgrade the car since you're going to be paying more anyway. Or you might decide that you'd rather abide by your budget and go for a car that's less expensive but still gets you where you want to go - that way you can save up for the car you really want while still having that beater to get you where you need to go.
This idea that you need to identify an immediate upgrade over DJ in order to even consider parting ways with him is ridiculous. It's entirely reasonable, given DJ's impending FA status, to conclude that the implied increase in cost for DJ's next contract makes him a poor value, and that building the entirety of the roster becomes significantly more difficult if the determined valuation for DJ is exceeded.
For example, let's say DJ is seeking a multi-year contract with an AAV of ~$30M. And then let's consider an alternative, someone like Andy Dalton, who is seeking only $15M AAV, and for fewer years.
Now, in this example, I don't have to conclude that Dalton is an upgrade over Jones in order to conclude that Dalton makes more sense as a placeholder bridge QB, if my actual goal is to draft a rookie QB and develop him behind whichever veteran QB I deploy as my nominal starter for 2023.
The entire "well, who are you going to sign as an upgrade instead?" argument is how you end up signing Nate Solder to an albatross contract when you strike out on Andrew Norwell.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
More or less I agree. I don't see him at the top of the tier you outlined previously. He's more middle to bottom of the tier, imo. When he runs for 85+ we have a great shot to win. When he doesn't we have a toothless attack.
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Yep which tells me they may be ready to move on from him.
The year is 2032. The Giants just hired their 3rd GM since Gettleman retired, and their 5th HC since Joe Judge.
Fans swear this will be the year Jones finally breaks out
I mean did you see Garrett Wilson yesterday. We don't have that. I watched Davante Adams and AJ Brown and Jamarr Chase and Jefferson and Diggs and so on make crazy catches and plays and all I can think is man our WRs are horrible. I mean think about it. Isaiah Hodges couldn't sniff the field for Buffalo and was released. He is our second best WR behind a WR that has a 15.6% drop rate!
actually at 19 seconds it was third and one. They ran JONES to pick up the first with no timeouts and had to spike it at 5 seconds to kick the field goal. It was a play calling disaster, not a reflection on Jones.
Threw two INTs, and lost to a team that Jones beat. Or is that not part of the narrative?
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
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When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
Threw two INTs, and lost to a team that Jones beat. Or is that not part of the narrative?
Jones beat the Vikings?
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In comment 15933940 Amtoft said:
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
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In comment 15934002 Sean said:
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When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
Threw two INTs, and lost to a team that Jones beat. Or is that not part of the narrative?
Jones beat the Vikings?
Oops...for some reason I was thinking Packers. Still...do the two INTs and 26 incompletions during the game enter the equation? Or no, because it's not Jones who threw them?
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In comment 15933968 JonC said:
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In comment 15933940 Amtoft said:
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
So on the last drive in regulation, are you saying that Jones defied Dabs and Kafka and threw deep on his own?
Time and time again we've heard Daboll encourage Jones "if you like the read take the shot."
I’m grading Jones based on his pending free agent status and what he should be paid versus what players like White and Heinicke can do.
There are no narratives here.
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In comment 15934071 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 15933968 JonC said:
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In comment 15933940 Amtoft said:
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
So on the last drive in regulation, are you saying that Jones defied Dabs and Kafka and threw deep on his own?
pretty sure he was talking about the end of the first half. 10 yard, line 19 seconds.
does the coaching staff not trust him or does the coaching staff not trust our interior OL and skill position players?
Huh??????!!?!???
Mike White has played 6 games and has thrown either 2 or 4 interceptions in FOUR of them. (And as I was told on BBI, stats in games a QB loses, especially when they turn the ball over, doesn’t count.)
As someone else said, did you see the TD Garrett Wilson scored yesterday? C’mon people. I can accept people saying that they don’t believe Daniel Jones is good enough. But this horseshit where people pretend that coaching doesn’t matter or talent at the skill positions doesn’t matter is the dumbest shit I’ve ever read on BBI. Enough please.
Time and time again we've heard Daboll encourage Jones "if you like the read take the shot."
Wait...so when he throws deep, it's "we will never know the playcall" but when he runs a QB draw before the half, it's because Dabs doesn't trust him? Just want to understand the rules of debate here.
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In comment 15934080 Ron Johnson said:
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In comment 15934071 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 15933968 JonC said:
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In comment 15933940 Amtoft said:
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
So on the last drive in regulation, are you saying that Jones defied Dabs and Kafka and threw deep on his own?
pretty sure he was talking about the end of the first half. 10 yard, line 19 seconds.
Ron, so we're pretty sure he didn't trust him with 19 seconds in the first half when the game was not on the line, but then with a minute and a half left, he trusted him to throw deep twice and then for the sticks on 3rd and 10, despite Wash having 3 time outs?
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They’d rather take the FG when the games not in the balance than even look toward the end zone.
They’d rather take the FG when the games not in the balance than even look toward the end zone.
Pretzel logic at it's finest.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
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In comment 15934070 rnargi said:
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In comment 15934002 Sean said:
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When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
Threw two INTs, and lost to a team that Jones beat. Or is that not part of the narrative?
Jones beat the Vikings?
Oops...for some reason I was thinking Packers. Still...do the two INTs and 26 incompletions during the game enter the equation? Or no, because it's not Jones who threw them?
I think they do matter, and I see your point, but Jones and White aren't supposed to be interchangeable, are they? Jones is a former #6 overall pick who has been a starter for his entire career since taking over for Eli early in his rookie campaign. White, meanwhile, was chosen 165 selections later in the same draft, and has been a backup QB for nearly his entire career, except for a few spot starts due to injury and/or ineffectiveness.
White will likely make less than $10M next season (and most likely less than $5M unless he somehow ends up in Matt Flynn territory). Jones will likely make more than $20M next season (and probably more like $30M+). If it's just about the supporting cast, aren't you still better off with White at the cheaper price if it allows you to go get the same receivers that White has?
Unless Jones is worth committing to as a bonafide QB1, I think there will be more economical options available as a bridge QB. Neither Jones nor White is elite. And Jones may be a superior QB to White, but he's not 3x better than White, especially if you've determined that neither is the long-term answer.
For the same price and same number of years, I'd absolutely choose DJ. For what I assume will be a very significant difference in price and length of term, I don't think it's so simple.
Anyone against that, and figures he can't improve on what he's show this year with better surroundings is just simply, well, "over him".
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In comment 15934086 rnargi said:
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In comment 15934080 Ron Johnson said:
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In comment 15934071 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 15933968 JonC said:
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In comment 15933940 Amtoft said:
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing.
you got that right
So on the last drive in regulation, are you saying that Jones defied Dabs and Kafka and threw deep on his own?
pretty sure he was talking about the end of the first half. 10 yard, line 19 seconds.
Ron, so we're pretty sure he didn't trust him with 19 seconds in the first half when the game was not on the line, but then with a minute and a half left, he trusted him to throw deep twice and then for the sticks on 3rd and 10, despite Wash having 3 time outs?
like the man said: "At this point people just are inadvertly admitting they don't know what they are seeing. "
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Doesn't add up.
Now if you mean he doesn't trust any QB on the roster then your point is taken.
And what calls are you referring to?
If he too scared to let DJ throw a ball into the endzone with no TOs then he should have Taylor QBing the team.
But he doesn't.........
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In comment 15934078 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15934070 rnargi said:
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In comment 15934002 Sean said:
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When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
Threw two INTs, and lost to a team that Jones beat. Or is that not part of the narrative?
Jones beat the Vikings?
Oops...for some reason I was thinking Packers. Still...do the two INTs and 26 incompletions during the game enter the equation? Or no, because it's not Jones who threw them?
I think they do matter, and I see your point, but Jones and White aren't supposed to be interchangeable, are they? Jones is a former #6 overall pick who has been a starter for his entire career since taking over for Eli early in his rookie campaign. White, meanwhile, was chosen 165 selections later in the same draft, and has been a backup QB for nearly his entire career, except for a few spot starts due to injury and/or ineffectiveness.
White will likely make less than $10M next season (and most likely less than $5M unless he somehow ends up in Matt Flynn territory). Jones will likely make more than $20M next season (and probably more like $30M+). If it's just about the supporting cast, aren't you still better off with White at the cheaper price if it allows you to go get the same receivers that White has?
Unless Jones is worth committing to as a bonafide QB1, I think there will be more economical options available as a bridge QB. Neither Jones nor White is elite. And Jones may be a superior QB to White, but he's not 3x better than White, especially if you've determined that neither is the long-term answer.
For the same price and same number of years, I'd absolutely choose DJ. For what I assume will be a very significant difference in price and length of term, I don't think it's so simple.
I'm with you, GD...they do not have the same pedigree as far as draft status. I'm on record that I would take DJ back on a 2 year bridge deal around 15-20M a year. Maybe he will get a better offer. Maybe even from the Commanders. I do not believe there is a college QB we can draft with our draft capital that would be an improvement and there is no UFA better than Jones other than LJ and he's not coming to the Giants. I'm not sold on Jones, but I'm also not sold that he's not better than what his cast allows him to be. He's never had a good OL, and now his WRs and TEs are laughable. I really have no idea. I just don't blame him as much as others do for the team's current malaise.