Anyone against that, and figures he can't improve on what he's show this year with better surroundings is just simply, well, "over him".
DJ as a bridge may not make sense to DJ (or DJ's agent), or to some other team in the NFL willing to pay him to be more than just a bridge QB.
As a free agent, DJ gets a voice in whether or not he agrees that he's a bridge QB. And Schoen & Daboll get a voice in whether or not they agree with DJ's price tag.
Anyone against that, and figures he can't improve on what he's show this year with better surroundings is just simply, well, "over him".
DJ as a bridge may not make sense to DJ (or DJ's agent), or to some other team in the NFL willing to pay him to be more than just a bridge QB.
As a free agent, DJ gets a voice in whether or not he agrees that he's a bridge QB. And Schoen & Daboll get a voice in whether or not they agree with DJ's price tag.
Exactly right.
And as we all know, it takes one dumb team to screw up what would be the best plan.
The Giants are never going to win Super Bowls with Jones
We are better off picking a QB in the draft, who may have a lower floor than Jones but has a higher ceiling. And we don't need 3 years to figure out if he's the guy.
This nod to stability and tradition, that we must guarantee 3 to 5 years to every QB we draft is such an old school concept.
RE: The Giants are never going to win Super Bowls with Jones
We are better off picking a QB in the draft, who may have a lower floor than Jones but has a higher ceiling. And we don't need 3 years to figure out if he's the guy.
This nod to stability and tradition, that we must guarantee 3 to 5 years to every QB we draft is such an old school concept.
To go with your concept, who are you picking and what round are you thinking?
We are better off picking a QB in the draft, who may have a lower floor than Jones but has a higher ceiling. And we don't need 3 years to figure out if he's the guy.
This nod to stability and tradition, that we must guarantee 3 to 5 years to every QB we draft is such an old school concept.
To go with your concept, who are you picking and what round are you thinking?
don't expect an answer to this
RE: RE: I've been pretty consistent that I dont think the coaches trust him.
The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
RE: RE: RE: I've been pretty consistent that I dont think the coaches trust him.
The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
Yet you blame it all on Jones. Despite your lying eyes showing you he makes more plays then not with a cast of characters who bring almost nothing to the table at LG C RG WR1 WR2 WR3 TE1 TE2. So blame him. And then you can blame the next guy who comes in and has the same issues. What do you think Hebert's record would be on this team? Why is his team 6-6 and yet to beat a team with a winning record? Why isn't he "putting the team on his back" and just winning? He has infinitely better WRs and a game changing back. Why doesn't HE suck? Because he throws for more yards?
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Doesn't add up.
Now if you mean he doesn't trust any QB on the roster then your point is taken.
And what calls are you referring to?
If he too scared to let DJ throw a ball into the endzone with no TOs then he should have Taylor QBing the team.
But he doesn't.........
Most of the 4th quarter and overtime, Daboll (or Kafka with Daboll not overruling him) were painfully conservative. If it doesn't add up for you, I'm not sure what you're watching.
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Doesn't add up.
Now if you mean he doesn't trust any QB on the roster then your point is taken.
And what calls are you referring to?
If he too scared to let DJ throw a ball into the endzone with no TOs then he should have Taylor QBing the team.
But he doesn't.........
Most of the 4th quarter and overtime, Daboll (or Kafka with Daboll not overruling him) were painfully conservative. If it doesn't add up for you, I'm not sure what you're watching.
But JC, my contention is that although some of that may be on their comfort level with DJ, it at this point is more on the lack of consistent protection from interior OL, TEs, a good Washington DL (and overall defense) and the WR talent (lack thereof). It's hard to really know how much of that to assign specifically to comfort level with the QB. Man just for once I'd like to see what the QB looks like with a few games of better and more consistent overall pass pro and at least one legit WR. He has shown he can do it, as look at the game he and Toney were having against Dallas last year before he got hurt. I mean he has no Shep and now no Wandale, with our best receiver being someone (in Slayton) who just doesn't cut the mustard.
Jones is an average NFL QB with some running ability. He's a game manager, not a game changer. Occasionally, he'll put up an eye catching performance, surrounded by a dozen more very ordinary ones.
In the end, this is what he has to work with to earn an extension. And, they need to make a decision based off of it.
Perhaps, the leadership will agree with you and try to reach a short-term deal with him to continue down this path.
Based on what I've seen from Jones over four seasons, it's time to move on. Jones isn't some great mystery waiting to unfold for us. I'd rather spend the $20M or $30M elsewhere and I'd find drafting another QB.
As to whom, I've given names and when scouting ramps up I'll share more. But, I have no fear about letting Jones go. 2023 Giants will look different, as will 2024. Change is inevitable
Gotcha. As always, I respect your viewpoints more than many here.... lol. I agree actually as far as I have no ties specifically to keeping him. I'm good with whatever Schoen and Daboll decide to do, I'll root for the next guy up. But personally, I feel like the guy does a lot with very little. I would love to see what he could do with a more complete roster. I love Saquon, but I'd keep Jones before I kept Saquon if it came down to it. Give him at least one + level talent level WR and keep building the interior of the OL.
I really do think it's helpful to look at Jones through the lens of an unrestricted free agent, which is what he is.
And put him in the bucket with the other quarterbacks who will be free agents.
I'm assuming we all agree these things are true:
- The QB has never performed at a near pro-bowl level
- The QB has never played with a good pass protecting line
- The QB has never played with good pass targets
- The QB has played with an excellent running back
- The QB has played under a very bad, very good, and very average system
I really do think it's helpful to look at Jones through the lens of an unrestricted free agent, which is what he is.
And put him in the bucket with the other quarterbacks who will be free agents.
I'm assuming we all agree these things are true:
- The QB has never performed at a near pro-bowl level
- The QB has never played with a good pass protecting line
- The QB has never played with good pass targets
- The QB has played with an excellent running back
- The QB has played under a very bad, very good, and very average system
In the abstract, what would you pay this QB?
You simply cannot project a level of performance to a QB who has never displayed that level going into year 5, regardless of context. This isn't a factory building widgets, you cannot assume a scale up will be successful. It is not clear at all that Jones has the talent to scale up his production.
And if we pay Jones assuming he can scale up his production, well that's bad business, and we deserve what we get, making such assumptions.
I really do think it's helpful to look at Jones through the lens of an unrestricted free agent, which is what he is.
And put him in the bucket with the other quarterbacks who will be free agents.
I'm assuming we all agree these things are true:
- The QB has never performed at a near pro-bowl level
- The QB has never played with a good pass protecting line
- The QB has never played with good pass targets
- The QB has played with an excellent running back
- The QB has played under a very bad, very good, and very average system
In the abstract, what would you pay this QB?
You simply cannot project a level of performance to a QB who has never displayed that level going into year 5, regardless of context. This isn't a factory building widgets, you cannot assume a scale up will be successful. It is not clear at all that Jones has the talent to scale up his production.
And if we pay Jones assuming he can scale up his production, well that's bad business, and we deserve what we get, making such assumptions.
he's left a lot of throws and plays on the field. Basically, if you watched a game with a football coach, and they walked you through as they chart a Jones performance, there would be consistent missed open throws, too slow to process a play and too quick taking the checkdown, lost pass rush feel in the pocket, bad RPO reads, etc. On almost any pass play in football there's an open receiver to be found, and Jones often misses it unless it's an easy one. Some of it is the lack of talent around him, some is his average skillset and passer instincts. He's a good runner but a very average passer. We're so starved for a winner we forget what it looks like after awhile, and I wouldn't hitch the wagon at $20M+ AAV to him. YMMV.
I really do think it's helpful to look at Jones through the lens of an unrestricted free agent, which is what he is.
And put him in the bucket with the other quarterbacks who will be free agents.
I'm assuming we all agree these things are true:
- The QB has never performed at a near pro-bowl level
- The QB has never played with a good pass protecting line
- The QB has never played with good pass targets
- The QB has played with an excellent running back
- The QB has played under a very bad, very good, and very average system
In the abstract, what would you pay this QB?
You simply cannot project a level of performance to a QB who has never displayed that level going into year 5, regardless of context. This isn't a factory building widgets, you cannot assume a scale up will be successful. It is not clear at all that Jones has the talent to scale up his production.
And if we pay Jones assuming he can scale up his production, well that's bad business, and we deserve what we get, making such assumptions.
^ Is that a response to the question I posed?
I think you're asking the wrong question. I don't want Jones to be our QB at any price. The time we are wasting with him is more valuable than the dollars we might pay him. Sign me up for any 1st, 2nd or 3rd round QB who might have a higher ceiling.
Why are we talking about paying Jones anything. He is a limited QB with a limited ceiling. The name of the game is to win Super Bowls, not to get the best price on a limited QB.
... now that's the million $$ question of course. It's going to be really interesting to see who takes a chance on him if not the Giants.... and of course, what he ultimately signs for. Honestly as someone else mentioned in this thread (or one of the million others) I'm just so beyond tired of debating about the guy at this point... lol
The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Doesn't add up.
Now if you mean he doesn't trust any QB on the roster then your point is taken.
And what calls are you referring to?
If he too scared to let DJ throw a ball into the endzone with no TOs then he should have Taylor QBing the team.
But he doesn't.........
Most of the 4th quarter and overtime, Daboll (or Kafka with Daboll not overruling him) were painfully conservative. If it doesn't add up for you, I'm not sure what you're watching.
So why not put Taylor in?
He's a vet QB who has taken a team to the playoffs?
I mean, is that the way you'd coach? Play the guy you don't trust?
he's left a lot of throws and plays on the field. Basically, if you watched a game with a football coach, and they walked you through as they chart a Jones performance, there would be consistent missed open throws, too slow to process a play and too quick taking the checkdown, lost pass rush feel in the pocket, bad RPO reads, etc. On almost any pass play in football there's an open receiver to be found, and Jones often misses it unless it's an easy one. Some of it is the lack of talent around him, some is his average skillset and passer instincts. He's a good runner but a very average passer. We're so starved for a winner we forget what it looks like after awhile, and I wouldn't hitch the wagon at $20M+ AAV to him. YMMV.
And you haven't even included that Jones doesn't really know what "open" is in the NFL. If you have a half of a step, you are open in the NFL. Occasionally, Jones will attempt and hit that throw, but usually he won't take the chance.
You play the QB you think represents your best chance to win. Playing Jones instead of Taylor isn't a silver bullet, as we've seen. I can tell you watching games this season, the offense is being called in a very, very specific fashion to protect Jones and the offense from its weaknesses. It's normal. But, given Jones' contract situation with a brand new regime, he needs to prove his worth and this is how the coaches have determined he's best used. Anyone who understands football can see they're calling a limited, basic offense. The training wheels remain on, the guide rails are in place. I sat in the stands yesterday and watched them dink and dunk within 10 yards of the LOS, probing the edges of the defense rather than attack over the middle. They did try to go over the top a couple times, with some success. But, after awhile you have to see things for what they are. Giants have a talent dilemma at QB right now, they've got two bridge veterans ...
he's left a lot of throws and plays on the field. Basically, if you watched a game with a football coach, and they walked you through as they chart a Jones performance, there would be consistent missed open throws, too slow to process a play and too quick taking the checkdown, lost pass rush feel in the pocket, bad RPO reads, etc. On almost any pass play in football there's an open receiver to be found, and Jones often misses it unless it's an easy one. Some of it is the lack of talent around him, some is his average skillset and passer instincts. He's a good runner but a very average passer. We're so starved for a winner we forget what it looks like after awhile, and I wouldn't hitch the wagon at $20M+ AAV to him. YMMV.
And you haven't even included that Jones doesn't really know what "open" is in the NFL. If you have a half of a step, you are open in the NFL. Occasionally, Jones will attempt and hit that throw, but usually he won't take the chance.
True. My friend asked me where are the slants, the digs, the sideline throws. I told him they're very likely avoiding them because of the turnover fear. So they try to lean on the run game, use small ball passing offense, move the chains, possess the football, try to keep the clock and field position in their favor. Again, partly due to personnel and partly due to using the QB to his strengths.
You play the QB you think represents your best chance to win. Playing Jones instead of Taylor isn't a silver bullet, as we've seen. I can tell you watching games this season, the offense is being called in a very, very specific fashion to protect Jones and the offense from its weaknesses. It's normal. But, given Jones' contract situation with a brand new regime, he needs to prove his worth and this is how the coaches have determined he's best used. Anyone who understands football can see they're calling a limited, basic offense. The training wheels remain on, the guide rails are in place. I sat in the stands yesterday and watched them dink and dunk within 10 yards of the LOS, probing the edges of the defense rather than attack over the middle. They did try to go over the top a couple times, with some success. But, after awhile you have to see things for what they are. Giants have a talent dilemma at QB right now, they've got two bridge veterans ...
I was there too.
That's a long ramble that I think translates that we are still having issues with pass blocking and getting guys open, hence the play calling we both witnessed.
They are protecting Jones from getting blown up, rather than not trusting his abilities.
You are entitled to your opinion, and it's one I do not agree with. What I wrote is not rambling, it's fact. And I stated it's part related to talent, and part protecting Jones et al from their weaknesses.
You are entitled to your opinion, and it's one I do not agree with. What I wrote is not rambling, it's fact. And I stated it's part related to talent, and part protecting Jones et al from their weaknesses.
Yours as well, but again to me, DJ is a strength (relatively speaking) on this team versus what other guys are doing out there.
He's no stud, but worth bridging if the money is right which I am not sure happens.
In fact, I'm more on spending the money on DJ and letting Barkley walk.
Barkley is what makes the offense go in 2022. When he's productive, it opens it up for the others. Going forward, they need figure out if he's core or they prefer a different design for 2023 and beyond.
I'd agree Jones is probably a better bridge option than Taylor at this point, but they're both still bridge options imv. Don't be afraid to aim higher and pull the trigger, even if it's a draft pick. Staying with the ugly girl because you don't want to be alone sucks.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I've been pretty consistent that I dont think the coaches trust him.
The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
Yet you blame it all on Jones. Despite your lying eyes showing you he makes more plays then not with a cast of characters who bring almost nothing to the table at LG C RG WR1 WR2 WR3 TE1 TE2. So blame him. And then you can blame the next guy who comes in and has the same issues. What do you think Hebert's record would be on this team? Why is his team 6-6 and yet to beat a team with a winning record? Why isn't he "putting the team on his back" and just winning? He has infinitely better WRs and a game changing back. Why doesn't HE suck? Because he throws for more yards?
Herbert looks less himself this year because those infinitely better WRs are consistently hurt. And yet, no one is questioning his ability to have a future in the NFL as a starter, because the skills are visible and the process that would lead to success if they had capable healthy WRs is there even if the results are not. This is not the case with Jones.
You are mad at things that other people say, not with me.
As for Jones, I don't blame him for anything. It's not his fault he was overdrafted and doesn't have a high end set of skills. I do blame fans who have witnessed good QB play even without good supporting talent before. Many of you have seen it and know what it looks like, but many of you are either entrenched in wanting to be right or entrenched in the emotion of wanting to hold on to what looks like hope and potential at QB. "If he just had X, he might be very good"
That ship has sailed. Blame the Giants for mismanagement. We will probably never know how good he could have been if they hadn't wasted 4 years with instability and ineptitude. Unfortunately that is the story of many 1st round QBs.
Barkley is what makes the offense go in 2022. When he's productive, it opens it up for the others. Going forward, they need figure out if he's core or they prefer a different design for 2023 and beyond.
I'd agree Jones is probably a better bridge option than Taylor at this point, but they're both still bridge options imv. Don't be afraid to aim higher and pull the trigger, even if it's a draft pick. Staying with the ugly girl because you don't want to be alone sucks.
I agree with DJ being the better bridge, hence my desired option.
Jones is Alex Smith 2.0 as others have termed. That only takes you so far.
However, concerning Barkley, there are good RBs to be had all over the country. I'm not sure I want to invest anymore than one more season in him - and start searching for his replacement pronto.
Barkley makes it go because when he's running it well, that opens things up - that's football 101. If you can run the ball the entire playbook is open.
As well as Barkley has done this season (mostly first half), I'm dissapointed in his involvement in the passing game (again - protecting DJ) and I just think you can get a near comparable player and a huge discount (ie the draft).
I'm disappointed in both players, as well as management over the past ten years and more. But, I'm only hanging onto parts and people who fit the solution. A case can be made rather easily to move on from both players, especially when you develop a cap blueprint and all the defensive players who look like core coming up for new contracts.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I've been pretty consistent that I dont think the coaches trust him.
The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
Yet you blame it all on Jones. Despite your lying eyes showing you he makes more plays then not with a cast of characters who bring almost nothing to the table at LG C RG WR1 WR2 WR3 TE1 TE2. So blame him. And then you can blame the next guy who comes in and has the same issues. What do you think Hebert's record would be on this team? Why is his team 6-6 and yet to beat a team with a winning record? Why isn't he "putting the team on his back" and just winning? He has infinitely better WRs and a game changing back. Why doesn't HE suck? Because he throws for more yards?
Herbert looks less himself this year because those infinitely better WRs are consistently hurt. And yet, no one is questioning his ability to have a future in the NFL as a starter, because the skills are visible and the process that would lead to success if they had capable healthy WRs is there even if the results are not. This is not the case with Jones.
You are mad at things that other people say, not with me.
As for Jones, I don't blame him for anything. It's not his fault he was overdrafted and doesn't have a high end set of skills. I do blame fans who have witnessed good QB play even without good supporting talent before. Many of you have seen it and know what it looks like, but many of you are either entrenched in wanting to be right or entrenched in the emotion of wanting to hold on to what looks like hope and potential at QB. "If he just had X, he might be very good"
That ship has sailed. Blame the Giants for mismanagement. We will probably never know how good he could have been if they hadn't wasted 4 years with instability and ineptitude. Unfortunately that is the story of many 1st round QBs.
T...I'm not mad about anything. I'm on record saying I just don't know. I've been watching the Giants since the days of Norm Snead and earlier. Ive seen a lot of good and bad QB play. I remember when Simms was almost jettisoned for many of the same reasons some want to jettison Jones. I'm not sold on Jones. But I'm still intrigued. It's hard to pinpoint. He very well may be exactly what the detractors say he is. I know it sounds like excuses. That's not where I am. I'm not excusing any of his faults..which he has. But we can agree there are reasons he hasn't been able to reach any potential that may be there, which we've also glimpsed. I don't know the answer. Which is why, with the roster so lacking, I don't think a QB change will reult in changing the calculus. A bridge deal, if it can be done, seems to me to be the logical choice as the roster is rebuilt. I very well could be wrong, but I'm not angry or mad. The team will take a step back next year, maybe even if Jones stays. But i don't see the potential for drafting a difference maker at QB and would rather put resources in the lines, LB, and WR. Just my thought process on the current situation. Peace bro, I'm just stating my opinion.
The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
Yet you blame it all on Jones. Despite your lying eyes showing you he makes more plays then not with a cast of characters who bring almost nothing to the table at LG C RG WR1 WR2 WR3 TE1 TE2. So blame him. And then you can blame the next guy who comes in and has the same issues. What do you think Hebert's record would be on this team? Why is his team 6-6 and yet to beat a team with a winning record? Why isn't he "putting the team on his back" and just winning? He has infinitely better WRs and a game changing back. Why doesn't HE suck? Because he throws for more yards?
Herbert looks less himself this year because those infinitely better WRs are consistently hurt. And yet, no one is questioning his ability to have a future in the NFL as a starter, because the skills are visible and the process that would lead to success if they had capable healthy WRs is there even if the results are not. This is not the case with Jones.
You are mad at things that other people say, not with me.
As for Jones, I don't blame him for anything. It's not his fault he was overdrafted and doesn't have a high end set of skills. I do blame fans who have witnessed good QB play even without good supporting talent before. Many of you have seen it and know what it looks like, but many of you are either entrenched in wanting to be right or entrenched in the emotion of wanting to hold on to what looks like hope and potential at QB. "If he just had X, he might be very good"
That ship has sailed. Blame the Giants for mismanagement. We will probably never know how good he could have been if they hadn't wasted 4 years with instability and ineptitude. Unfortunately that is the story of many 1st round QBs.
T...I'm not mad about anything. I'm on record saying I just don't know. I've been watching the Giants since the days of Norm Snead and earlier. Ive seen a lot of good and bad QB play. I remember when Simms was almost jettisoned for many of the same reasons some want to jettison Jones. I'm not sold on Jones. But I'm still intrigued. It's hard to pinpoint. He very well may be exactly what the detractors say he is. I know it sounds like excuses. That's not where I am. I'm not excusing any of his faults..which he has. But we can agree there are reasons he hasn't been able to reach any potential that may be there, which we've also glimpsed. I don't know the answer. Which is why, with the roster so lacking, I don't think a QB change will reult in changing the calculus. A bridge deal, if it can be done, seems to me to be the logical choice as the roster is rebuilt. I very well could be wrong, but I'm not angry or mad. The team will take a step back next year, maybe even if Jones stays. But i don't see the potential for drafting a difference maker at QB and would rather put resources in the lines, LB, and WR. Just my thought process on the current situation. Peace bro, I'm just stating my opinion.
This is the best post on this entire thread. The OP has become insufferable. I'll prob get banned now for that. It's been real, BBI. lol
T...I'm not mad about anything. I'm on record saying I just don't know. I've been watching the Giants since the days of Norm Snead and earlier. Ive seen a lot of good and bad QB play. I remember when Simms was almost jettisoned for many of the same reasons some want to jettison Jones. I'm not sold on Jones. But I'm still intrigued. It's hard to pinpoint. He very well may be exactly what the detractors say he is. I know it sounds like excuses. That's not where I am. I'm not excusing any of his faults..which he has. But we can agree there are reasons he hasn't been able to reach any potential that may be there, which we've also glimpsed. I don't know the answer. Which is why, with the roster so lacking, I don't think a QB change will reult in changing the calculus. A bridge deal, if it can be done, seems to me to be the logical choice as the roster is rebuilt. I very well could be wrong, but I'm not angry or mad. The team will take a step back next year, maybe even if Jones stays. But i don't see the potential for drafting a difference maker at QB and would rather put resources in the lines, LB, and WR. Just my thought process on the current situation. Peace bro, I'm just stating my opinion.
Rob, I agree with everything except that the Giants would take a step back next year even with Jones. I think him and the team will be better with a better cast around him. Good enough? IDK
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When do we see that performance from Jones? When the supporting cast gets better in year 7?
The year is 2032. The Giants just hired their 3rd GM since Gettleman retired, and their 5th HC since Joe Judge.
Fans swear this will be the year Jones finally breaks out
Remove Jones from the equation. What QB currently playing throws for 359+ yards and 3+ TD passes for the Giants in that game yesterday?
Anyone against that, and figures he can't improve on what he's show this year with better surroundings is just simply, well, "over him".
DJ as a bridge may not make sense to DJ (or DJ's agent), or to some other team in the NFL willing to pay him to be more than just a bridge QB.
As a free agent, DJ gets a voice in whether or not he agrees that he's a bridge QB. And Schoen & Daboll get a voice in whether or not they agree with DJ's price tag.
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..just makes sense.
Anyone against that, and figures he can't improve on what he's show this year with better surroundings is just simply, well, "over him".
DJ as a bridge may not make sense to DJ (or DJ's agent), or to some other team in the NFL willing to pay him to be more than just a bridge QB.
As a free agent, DJ gets a voice in whether or not he agrees that he's a bridge QB. And Schoen & Daboll get a voice in whether or not they agree with DJ's price tag.
Exactly right.
And as we all know, it takes one dumb team to screw up what would be the best plan.
This nod to stability and tradition, that we must guarantee 3 to 5 years to every QB we draft is such an old school concept.
This nod to stability and tradition, that we must guarantee 3 to 5 years to every QB we draft is such an old school concept.
To go with your concept, who are you picking and what round are you thinking?
Set aside the franchise tag for a moment (which would make this easier).
Why and what numbers would the Giants go "get" Jones?
Would Jones be open to those terms?
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We are better off picking a QB in the draft, who may have a lower floor than Jones but has a higher ceiling. And we don't need 3 years to figure out if he's the guy.
This nod to stability and tradition, that we must guarantee 3 to 5 years to every QB we draft is such an old school concept.
To go with your concept, who are you picking and what round are you thinking?
don't expect an answer to this
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The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
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In comment 15934146 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
Yet you blame it all on Jones. Despite your lying eyes showing you he makes more plays then not with a cast of characters who bring almost nothing to the table at LG C RG WR1 WR2 WR3 TE1 TE2. So blame him. And then you can blame the next guy who comes in and has the same issues. What do you think Hebert's record would be on this team? Why is his team 6-6 and yet to beat a team with a winning record? Why isn't he "putting the team on his back" and just winning? He has infinitely better WRs and a game changing back. Why doesn't HE suck? Because he throws for more yards?
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In comment 15933940 Amtoft said:
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Doesn't add up.
Now if you mean he doesn't trust any QB on the roster then your point is taken.
And what calls are you referring to?
If he too scared to let DJ throw a ball into the endzone with no TOs then he should have Taylor QBing the team.
But he doesn't.........
Most of the 4th quarter and overtime, Daboll (or Kafka with Daboll not overruling him) were painfully conservative. If it doesn't add up for you, I'm not sure what you're watching.
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In comment 15933968 JonC said:
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In comment 15933940 Amtoft said:
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Doesn't add up.
Now if you mean he doesn't trust any QB on the roster then your point is taken.
And what calls are you referring to?
If he too scared to let DJ throw a ball into the endzone with no TOs then he should have Taylor QBing the team.
But he doesn't.........
Most of the 4th quarter and overtime, Daboll (or Kafka with Daboll not overruling him) were painfully conservative. If it doesn't add up for you, I'm not sure what you're watching.
But JC, my contention is that although some of that may be on their comfort level with DJ, it at this point is more on the lack of consistent protection from interior OL, TEs, a good Washington DL (and overall defense) and the WR talent (lack thereof). It's hard to really know how much of that to assign specifically to comfort level with the QB. Man just for once I'd like to see what the QB looks like with a few games of better and more consistent overall pass pro and at least one legit WR. He has shown he can do it, as look at the game he and Toney were having against Dallas last year before he got hurt. I mean he has no Shep and now no Wandale, with our best receiver being someone (in Slayton) who just doesn't cut the mustard.
In the end, this is what he has to work with to earn an extension. And, they need to make a decision based off of it.
Perhaps, the leadership will agree with you and try to reach a short-term deal with him to continue down this path.
Based on what I've seen from Jones over four seasons, it's time to move on. Jones isn't some great mystery waiting to unfold for us. I'd rather spend the $20M or $30M elsewhere and I'd find drafting another QB.
As to whom, I've given names and when scouting ramps up I'll share more. But, I have no fear about letting Jones go. 2023 Giants will look different, as will 2024. Change is inevitable
And put him in the bucket with the other quarterbacks who will be free agents.
I'm assuming we all agree these things are true:
- The QB has never performed at a near pro-bowl level
- The QB has never played with a good pass protecting line
- The QB has never played with good pass targets
- The QB has played with an excellent running back
- The QB has played under a very bad, very good, and very average system
In the abstract, what would you pay this QB?
And put him in the bucket with the other quarterbacks who will be free agents.
I'm assuming we all agree these things are true:
- The QB has never performed at a near pro-bowl level
- The QB has never played with a good pass protecting line
- The QB has never played with good pass targets
- The QB has played with an excellent running back
- The QB has played under a very bad, very good, and very average system
In the abstract, what would you pay this QB?
You simply cannot project a level of performance to a QB who has never displayed that level going into year 5, regardless of context. This isn't a factory building widgets, you cannot assume a scale up will be successful. It is not clear at all that Jones has the talent to scale up his production.
And if we pay Jones assuming he can scale up his production, well that's bad business, and we deserve what we get, making such assumptions.
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I really do think it's helpful to look at Jones through the lens of an unrestricted free agent, which is what he is.
And put him in the bucket with the other quarterbacks who will be free agents.
I'm assuming we all agree these things are true:
- The QB has never performed at a near pro-bowl level
- The QB has never played with a good pass protecting line
- The QB has never played with good pass targets
- The QB has played with an excellent running back
- The QB has played under a very bad, very good, and very average system
In the abstract, what would you pay this QB?
You simply cannot project a level of performance to a QB who has never displayed that level going into year 5, regardless of context. This isn't a factory building widgets, you cannot assume a scale up will be successful. It is not clear at all that Jones has the talent to scale up his production.
And if we pay Jones assuming he can scale up his production, well that's bad business, and we deserve what we get, making such assumptions.
^ Is that a response to the question I posed?
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In comment 15934468 christian said:
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I really do think it's helpful to look at Jones through the lens of an unrestricted free agent, which is what he is.
And put him in the bucket with the other quarterbacks who will be free agents.
I'm assuming we all agree these things are true:
- The QB has never performed at a near pro-bowl level
- The QB has never played with a good pass protecting line
- The QB has never played with good pass targets
- The QB has played with an excellent running back
- The QB has played under a very bad, very good, and very average system
In the abstract, what would you pay this QB?
You simply cannot project a level of performance to a QB who has never displayed that level going into year 5, regardless of context. This isn't a factory building widgets, you cannot assume a scale up will be successful. It is not clear at all that Jones has the talent to scale up his production.
And if we pay Jones assuming he can scale up his production, well that's bad business, and we deserve what we get, making such assumptions.
^ Is that a response to the question I posed?
I think you're asking the wrong question. I don't want Jones to be our QB at any price. The time we are wasting with him is more valuable than the dollars we might pay him. Sign me up for any 1st, 2nd or 3rd round QB who might have a higher ceiling.
Why are we talking about paying Jones anything. He is a limited QB with a limited ceiling. The name of the game is to win Super Bowls, not to get the best price on a limited QB.
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In comment 15933968 JonC said:
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In comment 15933940 Amtoft said:
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The coaching staff doesn't trust him. 1st and Goal on the 10 yard line with 19 seconds left no TOs. That should be 3 tries into the endzone and they Decide to do one. QB run, spike, and FG. That is the problem I see.
It spoke volumes. Daboll made a few calls yesterday that point to it, and it cost them.
Doesn't add up.
Now if you mean he doesn't trust any QB on the roster then your point is taken.
And what calls are you referring to?
If he too scared to let DJ throw a ball into the endzone with no TOs then he should have Taylor QBing the team.
But he doesn't.........
Most of the 4th quarter and overtime, Daboll (or Kafka with Daboll not overruling him) were painfully conservative. If it doesn't add up for you, I'm not sure what you're watching.
So why not put Taylor in?
He's a vet QB who has taken a team to the playoffs?
I mean, is that the way you'd coach? Play the guy you don't trust?
And you haven't even included that Jones doesn't really know what "open" is in the NFL. If you have a half of a step, you are open in the NFL. Occasionally, Jones will attempt and hit that throw, but usually he won't take the chance.
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he's left a lot of throws and plays on the field. Basically, if you watched a game with a football coach, and they walked you through as they chart a Jones performance, there would be consistent missed open throws, too slow to process a play and too quick taking the checkdown, lost pass rush feel in the pocket, bad RPO reads, etc. On almost any pass play in football there's an open receiver to be found, and Jones often misses it unless it's an easy one. Some of it is the lack of talent around him, some is his average skillset and passer instincts. He's a good runner but a very average passer. We're so starved for a winner we forget what it looks like after awhile, and I wouldn't hitch the wagon at $20M+ AAV to him. YMMV.
And you haven't even included that Jones doesn't really know what "open" is in the NFL. If you have a half of a step, you are open in the NFL. Occasionally, Jones will attempt and hit that throw, but usually he won't take the chance.
True. My friend asked me where are the slants, the digs, the sideline throws. I told him they're very likely avoiding them because of the turnover fear. So they try to lean on the run game, use small ball passing offense, move the chains, possess the football, try to keep the clock and field position in their favor. Again, partly due to personnel and partly due to using the QB to his strengths.
I was there too.
That's a long ramble that I think translates that we are still having issues with pass blocking and getting guys open, hence the play calling we both witnessed.
They are protecting Jones from getting blown up, rather than not trusting his abilities.
Yours as well, but again to me, DJ is a strength (relatively speaking) on this team versus what other guys are doing out there.
He's no stud, but worth bridging if the money is right which I am not sure happens.
In fact, I'm more on spending the money on DJ and letting Barkley walk.
I'd agree Jones is probably a better bridge option than Taylor at this point, but they're both still bridge options imv. Don't be afraid to aim higher and pull the trigger, even if it's a draft pick. Staying with the ugly girl because you don't want to be alone sucks.
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In comment 15934161 rnargi said:
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In comment 15934146 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
Yet you blame it all on Jones. Despite your lying eyes showing you he makes more plays then not with a cast of characters who bring almost nothing to the table at LG C RG WR1 WR2 WR3 TE1 TE2. So blame him. And then you can blame the next guy who comes in and has the same issues. What do you think Hebert's record would be on this team? Why is his team 6-6 and yet to beat a team with a winning record? Why isn't he "putting the team on his back" and just winning? He has infinitely better WRs and a game changing back. Why doesn't HE suck? Because he throws for more yards?
Herbert looks less himself this year because those infinitely better WRs are consistently hurt. And yet, no one is questioning his ability to have a future in the NFL as a starter, because the skills are visible and the process that would lead to success if they had capable healthy WRs is there even if the results are not. This is not the case with Jones.
You are mad at things that other people say, not with me.
As for Jones, I don't blame him for anything. It's not his fault he was overdrafted and doesn't have a high end set of skills. I do blame fans who have witnessed good QB play even without good supporting talent before. Many of you have seen it and know what it looks like, but many of you are either entrenched in wanting to be right or entrenched in the emotion of wanting to hold on to what looks like hope and potential at QB. "If he just had X, he might be very good"
That ship has sailed. Blame the Giants for mismanagement. We will probably never know how good he could have been if they hadn't wasted 4 years with instability and ineptitude. Unfortunately that is the story of many 1st round QBs.
I'd agree Jones is probably a better bridge option than Taylor at this point, but they're both still bridge options imv. Don't be afraid to aim higher and pull the trigger, even if it's a draft pick. Staying with the ugly girl because you don't want to be alone sucks.
I agree with DJ being the better bridge, hence my desired option.
Jones is Alex Smith 2.0 as others have termed. That only takes you so far.
However, concerning Barkley, there are good RBs to be had all over the country. I'm not sure I want to invest anymore than one more season in him - and start searching for his replacement pronto.
Barkley makes it go because when he's running it well, that opens things up - that's football 101. If you can run the ball the entire playbook is open.
As well as Barkley has done this season (mostly first half), I'm dissapointed in his involvement in the passing game (again - protecting DJ) and I just think you can get a near comparable player and a huge discount (ie the draft).
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In comment 15934333 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 15934161 rnargi said:
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In comment 15934146 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
Yet you blame it all on Jones. Despite your lying eyes showing you he makes more plays then not with a cast of characters who bring almost nothing to the table at LG C RG WR1 WR2 WR3 TE1 TE2. So blame him. And then you can blame the next guy who comes in and has the same issues. What do you think Hebert's record would be on this team? Why is his team 6-6 and yet to beat a team with a winning record? Why isn't he "putting the team on his back" and just winning? He has infinitely better WRs and a game changing back. Why doesn't HE suck? Because he throws for more yards?
Herbert looks less himself this year because those infinitely better WRs are consistently hurt. And yet, no one is questioning his ability to have a future in the NFL as a starter, because the skills are visible and the process that would lead to success if they had capable healthy WRs is there even if the results are not. This is not the case with Jones.
You are mad at things that other people say, not with me.
As for Jones, I don't blame him for anything. It's not his fault he was overdrafted and doesn't have a high end set of skills. I do blame fans who have witnessed good QB play even without good supporting talent before. Many of you have seen it and know what it looks like, but many of you are either entrenched in wanting to be right or entrenched in the emotion of wanting to hold on to what looks like hope and potential at QB. "If he just had X, he might be very good"
That ship has sailed. Blame the Giants for mismanagement. We will probably never know how good he could have been if they hadn't wasted 4 years with instability and ineptitude. Unfortunately that is the story of many 1st round QBs.
T...I'm not mad about anything. I'm on record saying I just don't know. I've been watching the Giants since the days of Norm Snead and earlier. Ive seen a lot of good and bad QB play. I remember when Simms was almost jettisoned for many of the same reasons some want to jettison Jones. I'm not sold on Jones. But I'm still intrigued. It's hard to pinpoint. He very well may be exactly what the detractors say he is. I know it sounds like excuses. That's not where I am. I'm not excusing any of his faults..which he has. But we can agree there are reasons he hasn't been able to reach any potential that may be there, which we've also glimpsed. I don't know the answer. Which is why, with the roster so lacking, I don't think a QB change will reult in changing the calculus. A bridge deal, if it can be done, seems to me to be the logical choice as the roster is rebuilt. I very well could be wrong, but I'm not angry or mad. The team will take a step back next year, maybe even if Jones stays. But i don't see the potential for drafting a difference maker at QB and would rather put resources in the lines, LB, and WR. Just my thought process on the current situation. Peace bro, I'm just stating my opinion.
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In comment 15934363 rnargi said:
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In comment 15934333 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 15934161 rnargi said:
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In comment 15934146 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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The last regime didn't either. And there has been much more evidence of this besides yesterday.
The Giants don't attempt a lot of deep passes. They're not built for it to be a significant part of the gameplan, but they also don't even try.
They don't do a lot of passing in the red zone, which more than anything else on the field is a test of the QB's ability to see and react. They play it very safe. I'll stick to that. They get a little frisky between the 20s as all teams do, then get stuck in mud.
They threw at least four deep passes yesterday and scored on a throw (there were 4 total pass plays out of 8) in the redzone.
How many have they attempted for the year? Where does that sit among the league as a whole? What's the run/pass in the red zone? What do they call on offense when they're playing with a lead? Again, my opinion is based on how they have played for the season, not just yesterday.
Yet you blame it all on Jones. Despite your lying eyes showing you he makes more plays then not with a cast of characters who bring almost nothing to the table at LG C RG WR1 WR2 WR3 TE1 TE2. So blame him. And then you can blame the next guy who comes in and has the same issues. What do you think Hebert's record would be on this team? Why is his team 6-6 and yet to beat a team with a winning record? Why isn't he "putting the team on his back" and just winning? He has infinitely better WRs and a game changing back. Why doesn't HE suck? Because he throws for more yards?
Herbert looks less himself this year because those infinitely better WRs are consistently hurt. And yet, no one is questioning his ability to have a future in the NFL as a starter, because the skills are visible and the process that would lead to success if they had capable healthy WRs is there even if the results are not. This is not the case with Jones.
You are mad at things that other people say, not with me.
As for Jones, I don't blame him for anything. It's not his fault he was overdrafted and doesn't have a high end set of skills. I do blame fans who have witnessed good QB play even without good supporting talent before. Many of you have seen it and know what it looks like, but many of you are either entrenched in wanting to be right or entrenched in the emotion of wanting to hold on to what looks like hope and potential at QB. "If he just had X, he might be very good"
That ship has sailed. Blame the Giants for mismanagement. We will probably never know how good he could have been if they hadn't wasted 4 years with instability and ineptitude. Unfortunately that is the story of many 1st round QBs.
T...I'm not mad about anything. I'm on record saying I just don't know. I've been watching the Giants since the days of Norm Snead and earlier. Ive seen a lot of good and bad QB play. I remember when Simms was almost jettisoned for many of the same reasons some want to jettison Jones. I'm not sold on Jones. But I'm still intrigued. It's hard to pinpoint. He very well may be exactly what the detractors say he is. I know it sounds like excuses. That's not where I am. I'm not excusing any of his faults..which he has. But we can agree there are reasons he hasn't been able to reach any potential that may be there, which we've also glimpsed. I don't know the answer. Which is why, with the roster so lacking, I don't think a QB change will reult in changing the calculus. A bridge deal, if it can be done, seems to me to be the logical choice as the roster is rebuilt. I very well could be wrong, but I'm not angry or mad. The team will take a step back next year, maybe even if Jones stays. But i don't see the potential for drafting a difference maker at QB and would rather put resources in the lines, LB, and WR. Just my thought process on the current situation. Peace bro, I'm just stating my opinion.
This is the best post on this entire thread. The OP has become insufferable. I'll prob get banned now for that. It's been real, BBI. lol
You honestly think if Jones had one truly legit WR his nunbers would not be better? Look at the WR corps of those in the top 10
Fair enough. And again, I'm on record in a multitude of threads that I would give him a bridge deal. Nothing long term at this juncture.
Lol.
T...I'm not mad about anything. I'm on record saying I just don't know. I've been watching the Giants since the days of Norm Snead and earlier. Ive seen a lot of good and bad QB play. I remember when Simms was almost jettisoned for many of the same reasons some want to jettison Jones. I'm not sold on Jones. But I'm still intrigued. It's hard to pinpoint. He very well may be exactly what the detractors say he is. I know it sounds like excuses. That's not where I am. I'm not excusing any of his faults..which he has. But we can agree there are reasons he hasn't been able to reach any potential that may be there, which we've also glimpsed. I don't know the answer. Which is why, with the roster so lacking, I don't think a QB change will reult in changing the calculus. A bridge deal, if it can be done, seems to me to be the logical choice as the roster is rebuilt. I very well could be wrong, but I'm not angry or mad. The team will take a step back next year, maybe even if Jones stays. But i don't see the potential for drafting a difference maker at QB and would rather put resources in the lines, LB, and WR. Just my thought process on the current situation. Peace bro, I'm just stating my opinion.
Rob, I agree with everything except that the Giants would take a step back next year even with Jones. I think him and the team will be better with a better cast around him. Good enough? IDK