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The next day and Going forward from here.

jvm52106 : 12/5/2022 10:03 am
There is so much to take from yesterday. The first part is I have to admit I was wrong in my prediction. I kept saying 31-20 Giants (all week) and for a time in the second half I thought they might get to 27-20.

Yesterday:
I am not going to go over a recap of the game series by series etc. but some things that stood out and some impressions I came away with.

1) Kenny Golladays absence was felt yesterday. Hold on, quit your laughing and let me explain. Golladay out changes your receiver room and changes your active and inactive lists. Golalday does provide some needed blocking outside and that suffered some.

2) Darius Slayton gets a lot of praise for the plays he makes and too many excuses for the ones he does not. I don't care who the QB is, what the pass was like etc., once you turn and fully face the pass, get both hands on the ball, you HAVE to catch it. Keep in mind (watch the replay) he starts to drop the ball as he pulls it in to his stomach while still in the air (ie the ground didn't knock it loose). Slayton as our #1 WR tells you EVERYTHING you need to know about how barren our receiving corps really is. That play had a chance to put a dagger in the Washington team and instead it led to even more doubts, more conservative thinking later on.

3) Isaiah Hodgins is literally our go to target now in the middle of the field and in the red zone. Let that sink in further, a guy off the scrap heap is our main target on the over the middle plays and in the redzone. I do think he has a shot at being here next year (you can only fill so many spots in one offseason) and will be counted on the rest of the way here in 2022.

4) Thibs had a huge hit in OT that I still don't know how TH didn't fumble on BUT, I really would like to see more game changing plays earlier in the game. These almost got there moments begin to be a pattern-almost got there, almost made the play and at a time where we need to have SOMEONE step up adn take over, it just didn't happen yesterday.

4a) To follow up on that Thibs sack I was VERY disappointed to see the Giants on second down Rush heavy on what was obviously going to be either a run inside or a quick pass to just get off the goal line. Thibs went wide and the inside folks collapsed inward too much leaving Robinson a big hole to run right up through. That to me was on Wink's call, sometimes you play more of contain, when you know the other team is now fearing the possible safety. Rivera is Riverboat Ron for 4th down calls, not for taking chances where he exposes his team big negative plays. The Giants defense needed to be a bit more conservative on that rush. Had we held Robinson to say 2 or 3 yards, vs 7-8, Washington would have been even more conservative on 3rd down (they were still anyway) and their punt would have been a tad deeper in their own end and field position would have been a bit more advantageous. * Small critique but I could have called the play the Commanders were going to run after that huge sack and the Giants should have been set for it as well.

5) Barkley just is not the same guy since the Texans game and even in that game I was calling out some issues, some ways he was playing that now are far more glaring. Confirmation Bias is very difficult for people (all people) to ignore or overcome. It starts with if you like one guy vs another you will find positives for one and negatives for the other at any and all opportunities. Barkley has over a 100 yards that means he was great. Barkley ran tough on one pass to the flat so he is running hard and physical. The blocking is average so that 3 yard gain was all because of Barkley...

Go back these last few weeks and then watch games from last year and you will notice SB tends to slow up at contact, slow up (almost gives up) by the sideline and in many cases turns his back into contact and gives up on any forward momentum that may have been there. The blocking has not been great and the play calls on second down specifically (many second downs) is beyond predictable. That being said, Barkley is still not running like he did earlier this year. There is no doubt in my mind that he is running differently. Watch the actual film, look at the first 6 games to the last 6 games. Something is off and it is even more noticeable since the break.

6) Holy shit we area bad tackling team. It isn't even close as far as maybe it was a game here or there. We absolutely suck at tackling. Now, one BIG reason for that is depth- ie lack of depth now because we are playing so many guys who would be part-time folks or even just PS folks as starters that our backups are backup to backup players at best. This also explains why our Special teams are nothing special as we are digging deeper and deeper for guys to play ST's because of lot of ST's guys are full-time starters now.

7) The last one and the one that drives this board crazy and divides groups so much, Daniel Jones. I am so tired of the Jones arguments that I am actually rooting for him to move on just so we can argue about something else.

Yesterday was a weird game where we basically saw all the facets of Jones's game- both in game ability and what his game means to the team, vs an opponent and what it does to the fanbase. Jones was a threat early on with his legs. he was making Washington worry about coming in too hard on the pass rush and making them watch closely if the ball was going to Barkley or not.

That threat was tempered right away though with a very generic tackle causing a fumble on the very first drive of the game. Yes, this happens with many QB's, the problem is when the spotlight shines the brightest this type of play happens with Jones-regularly. Very disappointing BUT, that had nothing to do with the ultimate outcome (or at least it wasn't the reason we didn't win.).

Jones did show nice arm strength a number of times and at one point late had only 1 incompletion and that was an intentional spike to stop the clock. BUT, the passes were so very short, very rudimentary that it didn't seem like he was 15/16 at that point and the scoreboard sure as heck didn't show that result either. Is that all on Jones?? I don't think so. We ran so many bootleg left or right with a dump off to the TE or WR within 2 yards of the LOS where the completion was almost guaranteed but the yards and results were not. BUT, the question becomes are we running those plays because our skill position players are so bad that we don't have a choice or that the lack of confidence in Jones's passing the ball is so prevalent that we take most of the risk out of the equation?

I don't think it is 100% the lack of confidence but I do think it is a combination of both. When neither part is a significant strength (IE no #1 or even #2 or #3 NFL WR and your QB confidence is not overly high) then you become massively limited in play selection. Jones's high completion % is great but the results of the plays or the IMPACT of those plays is minimal at best. The other thing that comes with that type of approach, that type of attack is that we need near perfection to pull it off. A mistake here or there, a missed block and lost yardage pretty much dooms that drive. We need so many plays to score that you have to have NO mistakes, period!

There were a few times yesterday where I felt the QB was holding us back some and a whole bunch of times where the players around him certainly were holding us back. Slayton and Barkley were both mentioned above and they each played a roll in our offense struggling. So did Glowinski, Feleciano (HUGE HUGE HUGE blunder all to act the fool-even if he was doing it with Slayton he did it down field in a group of Commanders), and even Gates.. This team plays a razor thin game and when anything breaks down the play, the series and the game become in jeopardy.

Jones should have had a long completion to slayton. Jones also continues to make some throws (even in close) that make it difficult for the receiver to maintain momentum or have to fight the catch some in order to make it. That three yard gain on 3rd and 2 would have been 5-7 yards but the pass became such that just catching it was the hard part. That is costly and on a 3rd and 5 situation, could end up being a completion for 4 yards instead of the first down it should have been. *Yes, go back to the Dallas game with the pass to Barkley. Barkley has to catch it BUT, a good pass has that in play to be a HUGE gain. That is something that I don't think can be overcome as it is just how he throws the ball. You don't get better with your FEEL for the passing, that is instinct. Jones is a thinker and an aimer when it comes to passing, vs instinctual and a thrower.

Where do we go from here:

Right now two things are in play at the same time, it just depends on the outcome of two very specific games. The two things in play are- #1) we can make the playoffs with wins vs Wash and Indy (unless Detroit really rolls the rest of the season) #2) we can be moving back up the draft chart to a point where if we want a guy (I still think of all the QB's coming out that Levis the guy Daboll can mold) we could be a lot closer to trade up a bit.

Now, we are going to be getting more folks back- hopefully Jackson, Bredneson, McKinney and that will certainly help us out, The problem is, we are not getting anyone back that will help our scoring offense. That ship has sailed.

The season as far as the playoffs now rides on two games- @Washington and home vs Indy. If we steal one somewhere else great but these two games are MUST wins. Yes, for 2022 we are still playing with house money but it does feel a bit of a let down after starting 7-2. To be 0-2-1 in the last three games, especially when we could have won two of those games, is very deflating.

This week vs Philly scares the crap out of me. They are so balanced and we are so bereft of talent that they will wear us down across the board and that will have a huge impact on the next game (vs a rested Washington team with a huge grudge) as well. In many ways if we are to lose I would rather it is over early to have some guys rested and waiting for Washington vs a tough closer game where we still really didn't have a great chance to win (ie Dallas Thanksgiving Day) and we get guys beat up and or injured completely.

** if I am Daboll, I am very careful how I play this game and I use Brightwell and Breida a LOT to try and save whatever is left with Barkley for Washington. I would sit Leonard Williams if there is any question on his neck/shoulder whatever. Our season basically comes down to two games- Washington and Indy.

Beat Philly  
JerrysKids : 12/5/2022 10:06 am : link
Period, no excuses they need to beat Philly.
Looks like KT "clubs" Heinecke  
SirLoinOfBeef : 12/5/2022 10:08 am : link
from behind but doesn't go for the arm.

That was an opportunity for a game-altering play from KT. Came in untouched. You have to come up big at that moment.
RE: Beat Philly  
jvm52106 : 12/5/2022 10:15 am : link
In comment 15933782 JerrysKids said:
Quote:
Period, no excuses they need to beat Philly.


No excuses? The team themselves has to TRY and win but overall behind closed doors I guarantee you they know that is a monumental task and if the playoffs are our goal you know you need to be strategic with Wash and Indy as the games you have to win.
RE: Beat Philly jvm52106 : 10:15 am : link : reply  
JerrysKids : 12/5/2022 10:20 am : link
It's not easy but I think it can be done. They are falling backwards in my opinion and they need to stop sliding starting this week at home. Come out hair on fire, pull out all the stops, fake punts onside kicks, trick plays, going for it on 4th downs etc. Balls to the wall going for the jugular. We have nothing to lose, at least I want to see a very close game, Anything less will be Season over.
RE: RE: Beat Philly jvm52106 : 10:15 am : link : reply  
jvm52106 : 12/5/2022 10:24 am : link
In comment 15933808 JerrysKids said:
Quote:
It's not easy but I think it can be done. They are falling backwards in my opinion and they need to stop sliding starting this week at home. Come out hair on fire, pull out all the stops, fake punts onside kicks, trick plays, going for it on 4th downs etc. Balls to the wall going for the jugular. We have nothing to lose, at least I want to see a very close game, Anything less will be Season over.


Problem is, as I mentioned above, we are so thin guys like Lawrence play 90% of the snaps.. Philly will wear us down - especially since we don't score much at all and if we keep a game close like that, we are going to see our guys getting beat up and that lasting the rest of the way.

Yes, I want a win but we couldn't beat Washington at home in a game we held them to 13 points (3 points after the first quarter) for the bulk of the rest of regulation. We had the ball and the chance to push our lead to double digits and never could get it done..

We may have seen our season turn south with the loss to Detroit and our idiotic lick on the bye week.
..  
Named Later : 12/5/2022 10:25 am : link
That was a great essay jvm. Your post will be the only thing I read on BBI today. You covered it all.

The Colts and 2nd Washington, and then.....we takes our chances.
jvm -- Golladay has been MIA for two years  
gidiefor : Mod : 12/5/2022 10:35 am : link
how can the Giants miss what they never had?
Cruz on the Slayton drop  
joeinpa : 12/5/2022 10:36 am : link
Questioned why he didn’t continue with his back to the quarterback rather than turning to face him and jumping
Saquon is getting stuffed  
MeanBunny : 12/5/2022 10:38 am : link
I don't think his skill has suffered much but with the lack of weapons everywhere on this offense except for the running skills of Daniel Jones all any opposing team needs to do is stuff the box and then run zone defense on the wide receivers who couldn't catch a ball if they paid for it. Jones also doesn't really read zone all that great and panics early
RE: Beat Philly  
M.S. : 12/5/2022 10:39 am : link
In comment 15933782 JerrysKids said:
Quote:
Period, no excuses they need to beat Philly.

What excuses are you referring to? The Giants don't need any excuses against a team that is way, way more talented... and way, way healthier? The Giants are walking into a buzz saw. Make that limping.

It's simply unfair to expect a win against the Eagles. That's not what the Giants are about at this stage of the 2022 Season. What I think/hope is fair? That the Giants play respectable football against the #1 team in the NFC. And can they at least keep it close going into the 2nd half?

What, then is a fair expectation for the rest of the season. Given the hardest schedule from here on in, and given the shattered secondary and wide receiver units, I think the Giants have all the makings of an 8-8-1 team that showed important strides forward in Year One of the Joe Schoen/Brian Daboll regime.
....  
ryanmkeane : 12/5/2022 10:40 am : link
no excuses we need to beat philly? have you seen the talent on these two teams?
JVM agree it's a tall order  
JerrysKids : 12/5/2022 10:40 am : link
Philly is a better team not a doubt, but that old saying "to be the best you have to beat the best". For this season to be the kind of success we both hope for a win here will be a statement. Let's be crystal clear here Philly is not the 1985 Bears, our team can beat Philly, I have zero doubt if they play inspired football they can get a win Sunday. I see the poverty losing attitude rearing that ugly face again here on BBI and with the Franchise on the field. I hope Daboll can help crush that out on Sunday.
RE: Beat Philly M.S. : 10:39 am : link : reply  
JerrysKids : 12/5/2022 10:49 am : link
I think 8-8-1 would be a disaster after a 7-1 start, just my own opinion. Every NFL team has injuries granted this has been a tough season for injuries we still have most of our best players playing. If we played well and lost a tight game that would be a moral victory I could live with, but anything less than that would be really hard to swallow.
Nice work jvm  
Lines of Scrimmage : 12/5/2022 10:50 am : link
Perhaps for those who watch the game again or maybe Sy in his review will shape some of the reasons why but to me it was like two totally different offenses first versus second half with respect to the offense.

I think you are correct about the tackling and that we have a lot of backups playing but depth hurts us on the DL.

As great as Dex has been I have to think it is incredibly difficult to bring it every play and in the second half with Williams out I understand the struggles. Our offense kept putting them back on the field and hopefully the find the answers why and correct those deficiencies. Unfortunately it may not just be the players imv.

That's kind of how I see things  
D HOS : 12/5/2022 10:51 am : link
Thibodeaux- "These almost got there moments begin to be a pattern"

Very frustrating, but he's a rookie, and many of those "almost got there" plays are having a nice impact. But I do really want "almost" to turn into "made the play". I think you can base future optimism on this though.

"Barkley is still not running like he did earlier this year...Something is off and it is even more noticeable since the break."

Totally. Very frustrating.

"we are playing so many guys who would be part-time folks or even just PS folks as starters that our backups are backup to backup players at best"

That's it right there. We can argue and debate this and that, but that's the bottom line right there and it really cancels out most of the over-analyzing and debate going on.

I am really looking forward to a year when this staff, assuming we can keep them all together for a few years, has a competent and generally healthy roster.
Oh and I am pretty sure the Eagles are going to destroy  
D HOS : 12/5/2022 10:53 am : link
us, with us having to play so many "backups to the backups".
RE: jvm -- Golladay has been MIA for two years  
jvm52106 : 12/5/2022 10:58 am : link
In comment 15933832 gidiefor said:
Quote:
how can the Giants miss what they never had?


again, like I said with him being out meant we had to bring another WR on (Sills in this case) and it also meant our better blocking WR was not available. Small as it may be, that meant something.
Something I just noticed on the snap count  
jvm52106 : 12/5/2022 11:00 am : link
post by Eric:

David Sills 1 snap... But guess what, that one snap Jones tries to force a throw to him over the middle in triple coverage. Sills and Jones worked a lot together so I can see why he trusts Sills to be where he is supposed to be BUT, it could also be argued that Jones was going to Sills no matter what.
RE: RE: Beat Philly jvm52106 : 10:15 am : link : reply  
RHPeel : 12/5/2022 11:26 am : link
In comment 15933808 JerrysKids said:
Quote:
It's not easy but I think it can be done. They are falling backwards in my opinion and they need to stop sliding starting this week at home. Come out hair on fire, pull out all the stops, fake punts onside kicks, trick plays, going for it on 4th downs etc. Balls to the wall going for the jugular. We have nothing to lose, at least I want to see a very close game, Anything less will be Season over.


The Giants can absolutely afford to lose next week. I'd love to see them play a "weird" game and not look anything like themselves because of it. But the season comes down to Washington in two weeks, not Philly next week.
JVM  
Rjanyg : 12/5/2022 1:15 pm : link
nice write up.

I agree with most of what you said.

The main issue I had with Sunday was the fact we have 4 3 and out drives in the second half before overtime. That is horrific. we get a FG on any of those drives we win.

Even if we possess the ball for any time we may have won. Washington score the tying TD with 1:45 left.

The inability to possess the ball and control the clock is just as detrimental as the ILB play on this team.

Imagine if we could sustain drives and wear down the other team as opposed to that happening to us.
The two ILB for the Giants  
Dnew15 : 12/5/2022 2:03 pm : link
are atrocious.

That position grouping MUST be better next year.
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