Saw an article on SB nation that Jones leads the league with 1 drop per 15.8 pass attempts. The talent isnt there. Losing Shep and Robinson was HUGE. The guys playing wouldn't make an NFL roster anywhere. Outside of Slayton who's a #2/3 at best, what do you do? I'd draft 3 or even 4 next year.
Right now it's just frustrating to even watch.
Outstanding? You grade very generously.
Agreed....this is a team with many holes and not enough depth to cover for the sheer amount of losses they've had this season. Which is why I'm over the moon with their record so far. They are gamers, no matter what they're talent level is. Hats off to the coaches and players for wringing everything they can out of this season.
Leqgue median is about 17 drops, so if we were average by that stat, we'd probably have about 4 more completed passes over the course of the season.
In my mind it's easily 15th.
They have 1 NFL caliber receiver and a couple of other guys (Hodgins & James) that are marginal NFL roster types.
So it should not be shocking that the Giants have paltry numbers. Remember, this is year 1 of a rebuild and WR was not a high priority in this past offseason.
Unfortunately like a lot of things in this game it is not just the drop but the situation where it happened and negative consequence. Slayton's drop is not only a drop it had a huge impact on the game.
Leqgue median is about 17 drops, so if we were average by that stat, we'd probably have about 4 more completed passes over the course of the season.
20 drops is being exceedingly kind.
The drumbeating for an all-world receiver when the qb can't accurately target the guys here now is just a further exercise in excuse making.
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Actually has 5 of the 20 total drops. According to the stats I saw this morning, we are tied for 4th in drops but we throw so infrequently that the rate stat might be correct.
Leqgue median is about 17 drops, so if we were average by that stat, we'd probably have about 4 more completed passes over the course of the season.
20 drops is being exceedingly kind.
I mean...look it up. Or if you've tracked every play of all 200 games this year, feel free to post your stats as well.
Rodgers stinks now that he has no receivers
How good was Hurts until they got him receivers.
Not saying Jones is great but you cannot dismiss how important good wide receivers are to a qb.
Reminder: QBR takes into account dropped passes.
Meanwhile, Jones is now 22nd in YPA, 19th in AY/A, 23rd in ANY/A, 14th in completion% and 23rd in TDs.
The drumbeating for an all-world receiver when the qb can't accurately target the guys here now is just a further exercise in excuse making.
What is God's name are you talking about? If you want to see a QB making bad throws that receivers need "to make circus catches...." you saw it yesterday with Washington. At 4:25PM you saw it with Tua. Jones, on the whole, has been fairly accurate all season. He missed the 4th & 1 in Dallas, but c'mon you are way over the top here.
Rodgers stinks now that he has no receivers
How good was Hurts until they got him receivers.
Very true
Not saying Jones is great but you cannot dismiss how important good wide receivers are to a qb.
Not to mention nothing this year from Toney
The drops are a real thing, but I doubt they materially affect the overall evaluation.
How can Jones be solid if he has no one to throw to? What made him solid? Was it his high completion rate that made him solid, and if so, who were catching these balls? 136 yards passing is not a solid game. Even with the WR he has, Jones should be averaging 235+ passing yards a game. He can't even average 200 and that's on the QB.
Seems ridiculous that many WR's are becoming the highest compensated players and the draft sees teams drafting them very high and in cases more frequently now trading up.
I guess these GM's don't have it all figures out after all.
Reminder: QBR takes into account dropped passes.
Meanwhile, Jones is now 22nd in YPA, 19th in AY/A, 23rd in ANY/A, 14th in completion% and 23rd in TDs.
He also had the 6th best passer rating in the league yesterday. Mixed results.
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Jones continues his slide. He's now down to 15th in the league. Certain posters were posting call out threads when Jones was in the top ten. My guess is they are looking the other way now...
Reminder: QBR takes into account dropped passes.
Meanwhile, Jones is now 22nd in YPA, 19th in AY/A, 23rd in ANY/A, 14th in completion% and 23rd in TDs.
He also had the 6th best passer rating in the league yesterday. Mixed results.
btw Herbert's QBR yesterday was 15. I didn't know they went that low. Anyone looking the other way?
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In comment 15934202 bw in dc said:
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Jones continues his slide. He's now down to 15th in the league. Certain posters were posting call out threads when Jones was in the top ten. My guess is they are looking the other way now...
Reminder: QBR takes into account dropped passes.
Meanwhile, Jones is now 22nd in YPA, 19th in AY/A, 23rd in ANY/A, 14th in completion% and 23rd in TDs.
He also had the 6th best passer rating in the league yesterday. Mixed results.
btw Herbert's QBR yesterday was 15. I didn't know they went that low. Anyone looking the other way?
Herbert is killing me in FF. I'm not sure what's going on in SD, i mean LA, but I have a feeling he's going to have a new HC next year
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Jones continues his slide. He's now down to 15th in the league. Certain posters were posting call out threads when Jones was in the top ten. My guess is they are looking the other way now...
Reminder: QBR takes into account dropped passes.
Meanwhile, Jones is now 22nd in YPA, 19th in AY/A, 23rd in ANY/A, 14th in completion% and 23rd in TDs.
He also had the 6th best passer rating in the league yesterday. Mixed results.
I consider PR to be one of the least credible metrics for evaluating QB performance.
The drumbeating for an all-world receiver when the qb can't accurately target the guys here now is just a further exercise in excuse making.
The New York Giants have 20 drops on 316 Pass Attempts
Daniel Jones 1 Drop every 15.8 PA
Cousins 1 Drop every 29.57 PA
Hurts 1 Drop every 28.9 PA
Burrow 1 Drop every 31.46 PA
Kyler 1 Drop every 32.4 PA
Mariota 1 Drop every 34.5 PA
Carr 1 Drop/42.6 PA
Geno 1 Drop/44.1 PA
Call me crazy. I fully believe this.
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In comment 15934294 Ron Johnson said:
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In comment 15934202 bw in dc said:
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Jones continues his slide. He's now down to 15th in the league. Certain posters were posting call out threads when Jones was in the top ten. My guess is they are looking the other way now...
Reminder: QBR takes into account dropped passes.
Meanwhile, Jones is now 22nd in YPA, 19th in AY/A, 23rd in ANY/A, 14th in completion% and 23rd in TDs.
He also had the 6th best passer rating in the league yesterday. Mixed results.
btw Herbert's QBR yesterday was 15. I didn't know they went that low. Anyone looking the other way?
Herbert is killing me in FF. I'm not sure what's going on in SD, i mean LA, but I have a feeling he's going to have a new HC next year
that team was supposed to be built to contend for the title.
A very poor performance all around
It's all about game breakers. Greatness. We have 2 great DL. 2 young and talented edge rushers and 2 very good safeties. We have one great RB and two bookend tackles. We have a mobile QB who is pretty accurate. He's definitely tough and no one works harder at his craft.
BUILD on that. IF you can add a great DE to turn a good line into a great one fucking do it. If you can add a star WR that's in his prime and it costs a draft pick and money? DO IT.
We didn't lose for ten years because we were too aggressive or risk taking, no matter what some may think. We lost because we play it too damn safe all the time. Be bold. GET THE GREAT PLAYERS. We aint winning shit without them.
Call me crazy. I fully believe this.
I think if we had McLaurin and Wash didn't we win that game by two TDs yesterday. What a pain in the ass that guy is.
I didn’t start it as a bash the wr thread. I was shocked that he leads the league in drops by receivers.
Slayton had to take a pay cut to be a 6
It’s not horrible. It scores 20 ppg. DJ, Barkley and Thomas are the reasons why this offense isn’t completely god awful. No one is making fucking excuses we are merely trying to correct some really dumb takes.
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A drop every 16 passes means two over the course of 32 passes, and he often does not throw that many. Is it really a big difference between that and say a drop every 17 or 18 passes? Is that really what is preventing Jones from being anything other than a ham and egg, journeyman qb? How about consistently putting the ball where the receivers don't have to make circus catches to catch it? This guy struggles to accurately throw 3 yard passes.
The drumbeating for an all-world receiver when the qb can't accurately target the guys here now is just a further exercise in excuse making.
The New York Giants have 20 drops on 316 Pass Attempts
Daniel Jones 1 Drop every 15.8 PA
Cousins 1 Drop every 29.57 PA
Hurts 1 Drop every 28.9 PA
Burrow 1 Drop every 31.46 PA
Kyler 1 Drop every 32.4 PA
Mariota 1 Drop every 34.5 PA
Carr 1 Drop/42.6 PA
Geno 1 Drop/44.1 PA
So, twice as bad as the next worst set of receivers. Next level ineptitude.
Call me crazy. I fully believe this.
So do I.
Teams have to worry about ONE more thing besides Barkley and it aint the fucking WRs and it aint the subpar but improving OL. It's Jones.
If we have Jimmy G under center we are worse this season. If we have the WASH QB we are worse. We aren't running for nearly 2000 yards by week 18 with those guys.
Jones aint perfect by any means. He's not the best pocket passer and he doesn't always see the field. That doesn't mean he brings nothing to the table.
If you have a genuine stud WR1, there isn't a whole lot of difference between your #2 and #4 WRs (depending more on their versatility within the scheme than anything else).
Would it be great to have enough really talented WRs that someone like Slayton would be nearer to the bottom of the depth chart? Sure. But if you lined up a stud #1 WR like AJ Brown or Ja'Marr Chase opposite Slayton, with Robinson in the slot and Barkley in the backfield, your skill positions are fine.
You don't need to bring in an entirely new depth chart just to improve the position group. Just adding a top-end ace WR would result in the remaining incumbents falling into more logical spots in the depth chart. Maybe you add a depth piece (either in the middle rounds of the draft or the later waves of free agency) and grab a few UDFA after the draft. Anything more than that is likely to represent an overspend of resources.
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In comment 15934202 bw in dc said:
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Jones continues his slide. He's now down to 15th in the league. Certain posters were posting call out threads when Jones was in the top ten. My guess is they are looking the other way now...
Reminder: QBR takes into account dropped passes.
Meanwhile, Jones is now 22nd in YPA, 19th in AY/A, 23rd in ANY/A, 14th in completion% and 23rd in TDs.
He also had the 6th best passer rating in the league yesterday. Mixed results.
btw Herbert's QBR yesterday was 15. I didn't know they went that low. Anyone looking the other way?
Those posters are looking the other way, for sure, and I'm a believer in Herbert. His coaching has sucked and he's battled injuries on his offense. Other guys won't get the excuses, but apparently some do.
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Jones continues his slide. He's now down to 15th in the league. Certain posters were posting call out threads when Jones was in the top ten. My guess is they are looking the other way now...
Reminder: QBR takes into account dropped passes.
Meanwhile, Jones is now 22nd in YPA, 19th in AY/A, 23rd in ANY/A, 14th in completion% and 23rd in TDs.
He also had the 6th best passer rating in the league yesterday. Mixed results.
Passer rating is not a useful metric in small samples. For example, a few weeks ago Slayton made that broken tackle, long run after the catch, which he scored on, vs Houston. It was a 2 yard pass. That play improved Jones' passer rating by 50 points.
They just played Washington and he wouldn’t see the field with their WR
This is how we bad the WR situation actually is
When has this ever happened, ever?
Did you happen to notice how good Joe Burrow is? We don't have anybody like that.
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it was a stark reminder how good T. Higgins and L. Chase are. They jumped off the screen. We don't have anybody like that.
Did you happen to notice how good Joe Burrow is? We don't have anybody like that.
Producer, here is a layup for you. Would the Giants be a markedly better team with Tee Higgins and Jamar Chase? Would they have won the game on Sunday if they had those two receivers? Would Jones stat line look a lot better with those two guys? Would Burrow be the same guy with Slayton, James and Hodgkins?
Burrow made some great throws, too.
That 3rd and 10 throw to Higgins to end the game was just brilliant.
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In comment 15934852 markky said:
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it was a stark reminder how good T. Higgins and L. Chase are. They jumped off the screen. We don't have anybody like that.
Did you happen to notice how good Joe Burrow is? We don't have anybody like that.
Producer, here is a layup for you. Would the Giants be a markedly better team with Tee Higgins and Jamar Chase? Would they have won the game on Sunday if they had those two receivers? Would Jones stat line look a lot better with those two guys? Would Burrow be the same guy with Slayton, James and Hodgkins?
Chase is great but Burrow is more important.
I take Burrow and Slayton all day over Jones and Chase. And so would every GM in the NFL.
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In comment 15934854 Producer said:
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In comment 15934852 markky said:
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it was a stark reminder how good T. Higgins and L. Chase are. They jumped off the screen. We don't have anybody like that.
Did you happen to notice how good Joe Burrow is? We don't have anybody like that.
Producer, here is a layup for you. Would the Giants be a markedly better team with Tee Higgins and Jamar Chase? Would they have won the game on Sunday if they had those two receivers? Would Jones stat line look a lot better with those two guys? Would Burrow be the same guy with Slayton, James and Hodgkins?
Chase is great but Burrow is more important.
I take Burrow and Slayton all day over Jones and Chase. And so would every GM in the NFL.
yup. Slayton wouldn't drop a ball coming out of Burrow's hand.
Regarding Jones, he still doesn’t have much to throw to and the middle of the line is only slightly better than last years version. So can you really, truly evaluate him? I still don’t think so. He will only be what he can be when those 2 position are completely shored up. I will say this about him though. He is a gamer. He gives what he has but any NFL team that needs its QB to run for 50 to 60 yards per game to be competitive is kidding itself. That’s D III stuff. This is the NFL.
I like him and he has some ability but I really don’t see him being a top10 QB in the league ever. I think he’s just outside of that with a full ensemble of talent. So the question is still what do you do?
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In comment 15934854 Producer said:
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In comment 15934852 markky said:
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it was a stark reminder how good T. Higgins and L. Chase are. They jumped off the screen. We don't have anybody like that.
Did you happen to notice how good Joe Burrow is? We don't have anybody like that.
Producer, here is a layup for you. Would the Giants be a markedly better team with Tee Higgins and Jamar Chase? Would they have won the game on Sunday if they had those two receivers? Would Jones stat line look a lot better with those two guys? Would Burrow be the same guy with Slayton, James and Hodgkins?
Chase is great but Burrow is more important.
I take Burrow and Slayton all day over Jones and Chase. And so would every GM in the NFL.
Couldn't just answer, is it that painful to go against your narrative. I think Burrow has more potential than Jones, but why is it so hard to simply answer those questions? Has Jones done something to you personally? He's the QB of the Giants, you don't have to love him, like him or want him here but this is why people get frustrated with the whole Jones debate, I know you have an agenda and are not alone, but it is maddening because it's not a debate with a lot of you guys, it's more of a vendetta and honestly who needs that. Who wants to debate against a vendetta. I'll be honest, I think they should bring him back because I don't see how and where they are getting a better option in here next year and I think he can win with some help, but if they let him go at least all this will be over and we can move on.
The drops are a real thing, but I doubt they materially affect the overall evaluation.
This is the best post in this thread. I played the game since I was 5. Coached it for several years between 20 and 35 and I know damn well I’m in no position to evaluate what is going on with the QB. Not one of us knows a route assignment on a given play. What the progressions SHOULD look like and where the ball is hopefully going. I know this place is here because we like to discuss football but more of you need to understand what you don’t know. I promise you it’s a lot more than you do know.
The one thing I do know is this receiver corp is hot garbage at the moment. That cannot be argued.
Good post BBB
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...is that the most important criterion in evaluating him, IMHO, is one that I'm completely unqualified to assess: Is he finding open receivers, when they exist, and delivering the ball to them on time/in space? Even if you gave me unlimited access to the All-22 view, I probably wouldn't know what what to look for. As a casual observation, I think he misses some shots, but it's possible that those occasions stand out because his receivers are rarely open.
The drops are a real thing, but I doubt they materially affect the overall evaluation.
This is the best post in this thread. I played the game since I was 5. Coached it for several years between 20 and 35 and I know damn well I’m in no position to evaluate what is going on with the QB. Not one of us knows a route assignment on a given play. What the progressions SHOULD look like and where the ball is hopefully going. I know this place is here because we like to discuss football but more of you need to understand what you don’t know. I promise you it’s a lot more than you do know.
The one thing I do know is this receiver corp is hot garbage at the moment. That cannot be argued.
Good post BBB
I have the same background as you. Couldn’t say it any better. A discussion is fine, a debate with some of these people is ridiculous.
3 OCs ; 2 coaches later. Winning Giants football. Losing Giants football. Golden Tate , Evan Engram it has been pretty much the same Jones throwing for low yards. Playing in a low risk , super conservative offense. Why is that?
When Manning had Nicks, Manningham, Cruz, Toomer, Barber, Burgess etc. They would turn a 8 yd slant into 60 yards.
This group makes no one miss, they get no separation and have no wiggle.
This is the worst group of WRs I have seen in a while especially for a team that is 7-4.
11 TD passes in 12 games. That does make me miserable...it should make all Giants fans miserable. Some of you want to overpay him and hope he can throw 1 TD per game next year? Is that the goal of the fanboys?
At the beginning of the year, even the fanboys said DJ should put up numbers like a REAL franchise QB. Now that he's not close (AGAIN)...it's "stats don't matter" and excuse-makers looking foolish.
3 OCs ; 2 coaches later. Winning Giants football. Losing Giants football. Golden Tate , Evan Engram it has been pretty much the same Jones throwing for low yards. Playing in a low risk , super conservative offense. Why is that?
Kadarius Toney, Evan Engram and Golden Tate, you can't be serious. Are they just all names in a box score to you? Two were kicked out of NY and one did almost more damage than good or do you forget the multiple balls tht bounced off his hands up in the air for interceptions or were you too busy screaming "F---ing Jones" to see who bounced the ball up in the air so it got picked. The players on the field matter, Jamar Chase has 19 TD's in his short career, many of them he took to the house after short gains. I don't watch all the Bengals games but I'll be generous and say maybe once the ball hit him in the hands, bounced up in the air and was picked.Evan Engram had 16 tds with the Giants and I'm going to say 8 balls bounced off his hands and were picked and I honestly think that is low
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In what world is that guy a #2/3?. At best he's a #4. He drops way too many balls to be anything more than a 4. He just looks alot better than he is because of the slop around him.
do you understand the game, bruh? If there was a #1 on the field, Slayton would be an excellent #2. He’s got nobody taking the heat off him.
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In what world is that guy a #2/3?. At best he's a #4. He drops way too many balls to be anything more than a 4. He just looks alot better than he is because of the slop around him.
do you understand the game, bruh? If there was a #1 on the field, Slayton would be an excellent #2. He’s got nobody taking the heat off him.
No team is going to start a guy who has been top 3 in drop percentage for the last 3 years if they can help it.
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Based on the talent at WR,DJ has done outstanding
Outstanding? You grade very generously.
We're 7-4-1 and he's our best offensive player.
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In comment 15934123 Giants said:
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Based on the talent at WR,DJ has done outstanding
Outstanding? You grade very generously.
We're 7-4-1 and he's our best offensive player.
I can think of two players on offense better than DJ by a WIDE margin, and then the rest of the unit isn't especially good, so being the best of the rest is hardly enough to be considered "outstanding."
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In comment 15934133 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 15934123 Giants said:
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Based on the talent at WR,DJ has done outstanding
Outstanding? You grade very generously.
We're 7-4-1 and he's our best offensive player.
I can think of two players on offense better than DJ by a WIDE margin, and then the rest of the unit isn't especially good, so being the best of the rest is hardly enough to be considered "outstanding."
That margin isn't as wide as you think.
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In comment 15934893 Walker Gillette said:
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In comment 15934854 Producer said:
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In comment 15934852 markky said:
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it was a stark reminder how good T. Higgins and L. Chase are. They jumped off the screen. We don't have anybody like that.
Did you happen to notice how good Joe Burrow is? We don't have anybody like that.
Producer, here is a layup for you. Would the Giants be a markedly better team with Tee Higgins and Jamar Chase? Would they have won the game on Sunday if they had those two receivers? Would Jones stat line look a lot better with those two guys? Would Burrow be the same guy with Slayton, James and Hodgkins?
Chase is great but Burrow is more important.
I take Burrow and Slayton all day over Jones and Chase. And so would every GM in the NFL.
Couldn't just answer, is it that painful to go against your narrative. I think Burrow has more potential than Jones, but why is it so hard to simply answer those questions? Has Jones done something to you personally? He's the QB of the Giants, you don't have to love him, like him or want him here but this is why people get frustrated with the whole Jones debate, I know you have an agenda and are not alone, but it is maddening because it's not a debate with a lot of you guys, it's more of a vendetta and honestly who needs that. Who wants to debate against a vendetta. I'll be honest, I think they should bring him back because I don't see how and where they are getting a better option in here next year and I think he can win with some help, but if they let him go at least all this will be over and we can move on.
There is no narrative. It's an opinion. I think Jones is a limited thrower. I would love him to prove me wrong. I'd be happy to eat tons of crow. Don't take it so personally.
I don't want us to be in QB hell with a guy we overpay to be a bottom of the middle tier QB.
Don't we trust our new GM to make him a fair offer based on his production?