I think they ended up in a position they didn't necessarily expect (not that they'll ever admit that), and BD is now trying to hold on to that playoff position and has gone super conservative.
I concur.
When you actually have games that mean something, that collar gets a little tighter lol
Hoping that BD realizes he's still playing with house money and starts taking chances more.
Probably felt a bit burned by the Dallas call, hence punting versus WSH.
This is the part you can't really prepare for until you've experienced it.
I also think he and Kafka have just about exhausted their bag of tricks. This time of year it's hard to fool anyone. Your guys have to go out and beat the man in front of them. When it comes to trusting his guys it's kind of a moot point. He has no choice but to trust them.
I left the stadium muttering that Daboll had a very bad game
Jones and Barkley conversations and go another route.
Boy was our interior OL bad and I give Sy credit, if you've been reading his reviews he's been pounding the drum for a top notch guard for years. We brought a lot of bodies in at the interior positions, but its time to go and get a top tier guy or two. We seem to have the tackle position solved for a good while.
They were awful. Between IOL and TEs we had free rushers every other play. It was maddening.
You can compliment the value a QB gives you much if there’s more money to spend. A QB that gives you 80% of Jones year 1 and maybe at most gives you 110% of Jones by year 4 is much more tolerable at the price tag that he comes with.
If Jones gives you 65% of what you’d expect of franchise QB and rookie gives you 60%, it’s much easier to fill that 40% void with better talent with an extra $20 million to spend, than the 35% void with Jones on a contract that costs $20-30 million AAV.
The market is the market. He's a journeyman qb. The journeyman qb's are getting between 3 and 9 million on short term deal. Mariota is getting 9 million on a 2 year deal. Dalton is getting 3. Smith got 3.5 and Brisett got 4.6. Tyrod got 5.5 for 2 years. Heincke is getting about 2.5. All these guys (except Mariota and Taylor) are free agents after this season, and no doubt more will be released.
There is Jones' market assuming they want him back which I don't think they do. But, if he is willing to play for that kind of money, fine sign him, and then bring in the competition. I think they would just as soon cut ties to him and wouldn't be surprised to see Taylor go too. These guys are replaceable.
You can compliment the value a QB gives you much if there’s more money to spend. A QB that gives you 80% of Jones year 1 and maybe at most gives you 110% of Jones by year 4 is much more tolerable at the price tag that he comes with.
If Jones gives you 65% of what you’d expect of franchise QB and rookie gives you 60%, it’s much easier to fill that 40% void with better talent with an extra $20 million to spend, than the 35% void with Jones on a contract that costs $20-30 million AAV.
The market is the market. He's a journeyman qb. The journeyman qb's are getting between 3 and 9 million on short term deal. Mariota is getting 9 million on a 2 year deal. Dalton is getting 3. Smith got 3.5 and Brisett got 4.6. Tyrod got 5.5 for 2 years. Heincke is getting about 2.5. All these guys (except Mariota and Taylor) are free agents after this season, and no doubt more will be released.
There is Jones' market assuming they want him back which I don't think they do. But, if he is willing to play for that kind of money, fine sign him, and then bring in the competition. I think they would just as soon cut ties to him and wouldn't be surprised to see Taylor go too. These guys are replaceable.
IF they can keep Jones on a one year deal along those lines I would bet every dollar I own he's here next season as the true bridge QB.
Whether Jones can get more on the open market remains to be seen. If he can't, he's back on a cheap deal like the ones you alluded to and there'[s nothing wrong with that. Keep the QB pipeline open and deploy a halfway decent option until he's found.
Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Annapolis Mike -- there were many, many times when Eli strapped the team on his back and led the way to a win, and when I as a watcher believed he could do it
So far - this year -- there has been more than enough evidence, that under pressure Jones is as much likely to be part of a whiffed play as not. There is something very awkward about him.
OK, let's compare Jones to a 2x Super Bowl MVP and future HOFer when most fans were ready to run him out of town before he got Plax.
I am not even a Jones apologist but this place is off their rocker.
If they don't trust Jones and they won't go to Taylor, then I am rethinking Daboll and his staff.
Easy to win with healthy bodies.
You have a running back making business decisions. Wideouts that can't catch. interior linemen that can't block. play callers going away from what was working and calls predictable plays over and over again.
The QB outrushes the star Running Back..
80% completion pct and the guy with the 2nd most drops in the league can't catch a ball that hits him in the hands.
dude has nothing at wr, IOL getting abused and a all star RB who doesnt seem to be playing like it (of course with no OIL its not easy)
Not a huge jones fan but i would give him a 2 yr deal and ride with him
there is much worse out there
I dont understand even the suggestion of questioning Daboll on this
Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Annapolis Mike -- there were many, many times when Eli strapped the team on his back and led the way to a win, and when I as a watcher believed he could do it
So far - this year -- there has been more than enough evidence, that under pressure Jones is as much likely to be part of a whiffed play as not. There is something very awkward about him.
Awkward? Eli is the definition of awkward ;-) Again...Eli was magical at times. But the Giants were 118-118 with him under center. I don't want to turn this into a thread that bashes one of the best QB's in NYG history. But Eli was profoundly average much of the time. And the Giants under Eli won playoff games in two seasons in his career. (good seasons)
Profoundly average because of inferior talent. Look at the last 5 years and how the record went south during that time frame. I mean if you want to start going that route have you heard of Fran Tarkenton? HOF quarterback but he had a record of 33-36 during his stay in NY. I am sure the fact that the Vikings had a lot better talent had no factor in him having a winning record overall lifetime!
But replacing him with a different QB would almost certainly have not resulted in two championships. I do not think Roethlisberger would have survived NY and I do not think Rivers would have been the same type of player in the postseason.
And still think he’s better than Tyrod. It’s not a binary situation.
They’re still trying to make the playoffs, so if they don’t trust him to let it rip they aren’t going to just do that to evaluate him and risk the playoffs.
I think they ended up in a position they didn't necessarily expect (not that they'll ever admit that), and BD is now trying to hold on to that playoff position and has gone super conservative.
+1.
Oh so I see, the coaches look at our interior o line getting the snot
kicked out of them, receivers who are terrible and decide that the problem is Jones.
what is the coach supposed to do? Call a drop back pass and get the qb killed or sacked?
for 10 years the o line has stunk and yet some here want to debate whether to keep Jones or Barkley. Honestly if they don't fix the o line they might as well let Jones and Barkley walk because neither will ever be effective behind this crap line.
I don’t care how it s spun, no one knows if they believe in Jones or not, it s easy to spin any and all actions to support which ever narrative you want
I mean we couldn’t even agree if he played well on Sunday. I felt he did, evidently Sy did as well.
If the Giants move on from Jones it will be obvious they do not believe in him. Long time supporters like me will have to admit we were wrong.
But I have a feeling if the Giants resign him, and fans like me point to that as evidence they did after all believe in him, there will be much push back on this board.
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JV squad at WR.
Interior line a mess
TE having a bad game
All quotes from the review
Yet when the 4th down play happened- Coach doesn’t trust DJ?
Are ya kidding me? Maybe, just maybe, he doesn’t trust all the other crap around him?
Just a thought
***understand is this
Maybe he doesn’t trust the line to hold up? Would you?
Or Slayton and the rest of the JV squad to actually hold on to the ball or get open. Would you?
Or SB to get 3 tough yards? Would you?
Or anybody on the offense to make a darn play other than the QB? Would you?
Do we even have anything remotely resembling a decent slot receiver now?
We need to find out what we have in Jones in these "game on the line" situations. He can't claim to know what DJ will do until he sees him in actual game situations. We had a chance to find out and he punted. And to make matters worse, he didn't have his team prepared to run a clean play on the pivotal 3rd and 2 before that.
There was no harm in going for the win there. It's really frustrating he pussied out, and I agree it sets the opposite tone he claims he wanted. It's hard to reverse those perceptions too.
A loss hurts us WAY more than a win helps us so I was ok (frustrated, but ok) with the punt.
DJ has repeatedly been clutch in the 4th with the game the line, accounting for nearly every win we have.
I really hope Julian Love gets signed. I wonder what money is he going to command. Top 10 safety money? I think he's earned that.
Definitely top 10 safety money
He might be looking for top 5 money. Looking at safeties his age who have signed long term deals he might be getting Marcus Williams type money: https://overthecap.com/player/marcus-williams/5628 safety contracts - ( New Window )
My mind is made up on Daniel Jones from watching him,
particularly as others have noted, when the game is on the line. Now, some other stats:
Tua has twice as many 20+yd completions on fewer passes thrown. Mariota, Tannehill and Davis Mills all have 30 or more, all on fewer completions.
Closer to Jones is the mighty Andy Dalton of the lowly Saints. Same number of 20+, almost identical number of 40+, Dalton has thrown 15tds to Jones's 11 on fewer throws. My biggest criticism of Jones remains as it always has been: he doesn't throw enough touchdowns. Using my eyes, I don't believe it all lies with the receiver corps. He is a very, very ordinary quarterback who tries hard. Can't question his character, but the skill and vision is not there. Doesn't read the game well enough or react quick enough. We have to move on from him.
I am convinced Schoen and Daboll feel the same way.
After all those games in Buffalo with Josh Allen, how could they not?
Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Annapolis Mike -- there were many, many times when Eli strapped the team on his back and led the way to a win, and when I as a watcher believed he could do it
So far - this year -- there has been more than enough evidence, that under pressure Jones is as much likely to be part of a whiffed play as not. There is something very awkward about him.
OK, let's compare Jones to a 2x Super Bowl MVP and future HOFer when most fans were ready to run him out of town before he got Plax.
I am not even a Jones apologist but this place is off their rocker.
If they don't trust Jones and they won't go to Taylor, then I am rethinking Daboll and his staff.
Easy to win with healthy bodies.
You have a running back making business decisions. Wideouts that can't catch. interior linemen that can't block. play callers going away from what was working and calls predictable plays over and over again.
The QB outrushes the star Running Back..
80% completion pct and the guy with the 2nd most drops in the league can't catch a ball that hits him in the hands.
Yet its the QB's fault.
unbelievable.
I agree. Jones may not be worth keeping but he far from being the problem
particularly as others have noted, when the game is on the line. Now, some other stats:
Tua has twice as many 20+yd completions on fewer passes thrown. Mariota, Tannehill and Davis Mills all have 30 or more, all on fewer completions.
Closer to Jones is the mighty Andy Dalton of the lowly Saints. Same number of 20+, almost identical number of 40+, Dalton has thrown 15tds to Jones's 11 on fewer throws. My biggest criticism of Jones remains as it always has been: he doesn't throw enough touchdowns. Using my eyes, I don't believe it all lies with the receiver corps. He is a very, very ordinary quarterback who tries hard. Can't question his character, but the skill and vision is not there. Doesn't read the game well enough or react quick enough. We have to move on from him.
I am convinced Schoen and Daboll feel the same way.
After all those games in Buffalo with Josh Allen, how could they not?
You cannot compare Jones' numbers to others with actual WRs. He has one semi-legit deep threat and a hodgepodge of low level free agents and castoffs. He lost his one legit TE to a fractured eye socket for 4 weeks. Sy calls this group the JV.
IMHO, he is not the answer at QB, but to throw numbers out there about deep plays is stretching reality.
think Daboll is more conservative now because of the injuries and the fact that we have a winning record and are in playoff position. None of that was true in week one.
Sometimes the truth is right in front of our eyes. Thank you.
RE: My mind is made up on Daniel Jones from watching him,
particularly as others have noted, when the game is on the line. Now, some other stats:
Tua has twice as many 20+yd completions on fewer passes thrown. Mariota, Tannehill and Davis Mills all have 30 or more, all on fewer completions.
Closer to Jones is the mighty Andy Dalton of the lowly Saints. Same number of 20+, almost identical number of 40+, Dalton has thrown 15tds to Jones's 11 on fewer throws. My biggest criticism of Jones remains as it always has been: he doesn't throw enough touchdowns. Using my eyes, I don't believe it all lies with the receiver corps. He is a very, very ordinary quarterback who tries hard. Can't question his character, but the skill and vision is not there. Doesn't read the game well enough or react quick enough. We have to move on from him.
I am convinced Schoen and Daboll feel the same way.
After all those games in Buffalo with Josh Allen, how could they not?
Tua has Waddle and Hill. Slayton would be 3rd or 4th on their depth chart. Not a far comparison. The others are fair comparisons though and its not good for Daniel Jones and this offense.
a solid read on Schoen/Daboll as to their views of Jones. I am not as certain as Sy seems. At times, I think they are willing to move on. At other times, I think they realize the limitations of the supporting cast and the progress he has made despite it.
I guess what I'm saying is I will not be shocked if they keep Jones or let him walk.
I also wonder how the 2023 QB class impacts all of this. On the surface, the class does not appear to be as strong as once anticipated.
This is spot on -- and is a very telling analysis. Daboll and Shoen have shown a propensity to say all the right things, and always state things as positively as they can about current players. They did that about Kadarius and then shot him out into the nether region.
I think that this is clearly what it appears to be. They are managing a tough situation, that they have already made the best of. If they need to keep Jones they don't want to have any words out there that will come back and bite them. But they have shown they can cut bait pretty quickly when the opportunity arises.
In my opinion there is no way Jones is the long term answer and they know it. When the right opportunity comes they will go for it. It will be sudden, swift, and decisive.
Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I wonder how much you trusted Eli up through Week 16 of the 2007 in that same scenario?
I wonder how Eli would have performed, during his 4th season, with this receiving corps and interior Oline?
I watched this same Corner Forum demand that TC be fired and Eli cut for most of that season. He was known as a turnover machine, right up until they went to Tampa that post-season....even with a near All-Star offensive roster.
Oh, btw I consider Eli to be the best Giants QB I have seen in my 50+ years watching the team....but be fair, he would have been buried by year 4 if this was his supporting cast.
Really not sure what’s going on with Barkley......
He realizes that he’s never to to the playoffs or have a winning record with the Giants. You’d think he’d be running very hard, however his running appears to be very soft lately. Could he still have an injury affecting him? The Giants need him to get his yards if they want any chance at the post-season.
RE: Really not sure what’s going on with Barkley......
He realizes that he’s never to to the playoffs or have a winning record with the Giants. You’d think he’d be running very hard, however his running appears to be very soft lately. Could he still have an injury affecting him? The Giants need him to get his yards if they want any chance at the post-season.
I don't believe it's that he's "not running hard". It's that this is who he has been. He can make the occasional physical play like sy indicated but that's not his game
When he was at his best this year, he was more aggressive, but he still wasn't doing that. It's just that the blocking was better, the threat of the RPO with Jones was backing teams off, and the rest of the league was still learning the Giants tendencies. He did get hurt, and maybe that's made him a little more tentative.
This! I put this on Daboll, not Jones. A coaching mistake.
He's made a few lately.
I don't mind a first time HC making mistakes. What is important is acknowledging and growing. I don't think there is anything suggesting he won't but time will tell.
Yea, let's defend a QB that is either a turnover machine, or puts up the production of a NFL backup
QB (there'sno in between), and throw the HC/OC that got that QB to 6-1, under the bus.
Now you're thinking!
They see him in practice, they see him in games, they see his film. They know what he's capable, and incapable, of. I'd bet they know more than know-nothing posters on the interwebs?
First, thank you for all the work you put into these and the scouting content you provide.
I really think you should include an introduction paragraph or two for the game. You always find interesting historical facts that make it worth reading. Simply starting an article with ‘QUARTERBACK’ is a bit jarring (at least to me).
If the game summary section isn’t coming back, could it be replaced by adding an additional link to Eric’s post-game article to the Gameday Preview/Review section?
That way there’s still a linear view of what happened in each game available for us to reference.
Yea, let's defend a QB that is either a turnover machine, or puts up the production of a NFL backup QB (there's no in between), and throw the HC/OC that got that QB to 6-1, under the bus.
Now you're thinking!
They see him in practice, they see him in games, they see his film. They know what he's capable, and incapable, of. I'd bet they know more than know-nothing posters on the interwebs?
This is not a bad post except, Jones has not been a turn over machine for a couple years. He has 7 total this year. If you make a good post, do not dilute it with opinion that is worthless. Remember that 6 of Jones' INTs last year were because Engram allowed the ball to bounce off his hands to a DB.
You may need to sign Jones and then draft someone in the second or third rounds to develop and take his place.
I'm in total agreement with you. I am regularly posting on here that Schoen's biggest challenge is to find a quarterback. The salary cap, the offensive line, wide receivers - all those will get sorted over the next couple of seasons. But quarterback? It's damn tricky. Supposedly there are some good quarterbacks coming through in the next two drafts, but I don't know how we get in a position to draft one without damaging our ability to strengthen elsewhere.
Always always. That’s broad brushing to promote biases.
Lamar took a step with Andrews.
Tua took a step with Hill.
Hurts took a step with Brown.
Allen took a step with Diggs.
Eli took a step with Plax.
Brady took a step with Moss.
Could go on. Each of these players elevated their game and ranking amongst their peers when they were paired with a legitimate #1.
If Jones is top 15-20 now, and IMO he is with a bottom third skill group/front, he’ll improve commensurate to the improvement of his skill group and front.
Mara stated they hadn’t done enough to help him, in fact, they hurt his growth. Having him try to “air it out” with this skill group and front would be more of the same.
Always always. That’s broad brushing to promote biases.
Lamar took a step with Andrews.
Tua took a step with Hill.
Hurts took a step with Brown.
Allen took a step with Diggs.
Eli took a step with Plax.
Brady took a step with Moss.
Could go on. Each of these players elevated their game and ranking amongst their peers when they were paired with a legitimate #1.
If Jones is top 15-20 now, and IMO he is with a bottom third skill group/front, he’ll improve commensurate to the improvement of his skill group and front.
Mara stated they hadn’t done enough to help him, in fact, they hurt his growth. Having him try to “air it out” with this skill group and front would be more of the same.
Brady was hurt the next year and the final year with Moss was pretty in line with his career numbers.
Yes, Allen elevated his game when they got Diggs but he also has a better skill set. Tua’s skillset as a deep passer is better. Hurts and Jones are probably the same as throwers, but Hurts is very good at manipulating the pocket, something Jones hadn’t shown in his skillset.
It’s not really Apple to apples comparisons. You’re working off the assumption that Jones will take a similar jump but there’s nothing that suggests that’s a certainty.
They got Brown because Hurts demonstrated he was the real deal the year before. Brown didn't make Hurts. Tua demonstrated between years 1 and 2 that he was a precision passer and his stats were bettern from year 1 to year 2.
Meanwhile Jones faceplanted between years 1 and 2 and is basically generating the same stats in year 4 that he did in years 2 and 3.
Frankly, this argument is ridiculous. Putting a clown on a stage with Shakespearean actors doesn't make the clown a Shakespearean actor. You get the Shakespearean actors when the clown displays a talent for acting.
RE: and Hurts took a big leap between years 1 and 2
They got Brown because Hurts demonstrated he was the real deal the year before. Brown didn't make Hurts. Tua demonstrated between years 1 and 2 that he was a precision passer and his stats were bettern from year 1 to year 2.
Meanwhile Jones faceplanted between years 1 and 2 and is basically generating the same stats in year 4 that he did in years 2 and 3.
Frankly, this argument is ridiculous. Putting a clown on a stage with Shakespearean actors doesn't make the clown a Shakespearean actor. You get the Shakespearean actors when the clown displays a talent for acting.
And again, how do you know, based on the talent the Eagles have vs. The Giants overall? That team is freaking loaded. Put Jones on that Eagles squad and they have a similar record to what they have now. In my opinion.
Jones doesn’t do some of the things Hurts does that makes that offense move.
If Hurts and Jones are interchangeable, why is Brown having a better year than he had with Tannehill?
The answer is in my post. That whole Eagles team is loaded. It makes a difference to every actual good player on the team when they play with peers who are that good. It's not just the QB. And if Sirianni is worth his salt, he tailors his play calling and overall offense to take advantage of whatever QB he has strengths and weaknesses. Which would be both more and less pronounced based on the skill level of the rest of the offense.
But it’s also not just the WR. Hurts has been an upgrade over Tannehill for Brown. It’s not a binary situation.
And again, that whole team is stacked. There are a LOT of pieces for defenses playing the Eagles to worry about. They have 3 WR that would become our #1 by a large margin. They have a very good OL. They have very good RBs. All made better by the fact that they are all good. I mean who is the weak point on that offense?
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I think they ended up in a position they didn't necessarily expect (not that they'll ever admit that), and BD is now trying to hold on to that playoff position and has gone super conservative.
I concur.
When you actually have games that mean something, that collar gets a little tighter lol
Hoping that BD realizes he's still playing with house money and starts taking chances more.
Probably felt a bit burned by the Dallas call, hence punting versus WSH.
This is the part you can't really prepare for until you've experienced it.
I also think he and Kafka have just about exhausted their bag of tricks. This time of year it's hard to fool anyone. Your guys have to go out and beat the man in front of them. When it comes to trusting his guys it's kind of a moot point. He has no choice but to trust them.
Wash couldn't cover for shit and couldn't strop the QB runs but we let them off the hook.
Boy was our interior OL bad and I give Sy credit, if you've been reading his reviews he's been pounding the drum for a top notch guard for years. We brought a lot of bodies in at the interior positions, but its time to go and get a top tier guy or two. We seem to have the tackle position solved for a good while.
They were awful. Between IOL and TEs we had free rushers every other play. It was maddening.
If Jones gives you 65% of what you’d expect of franchise QB and rookie gives you 60%, it’s much easier to fill that 40% void with better talent with an extra $20 million to spend, than the 35% void with Jones on a contract that costs $20-30 million AAV.
There is Jones' market assuming they want him back which I don't think they do. But, if he is willing to play for that kind of money, fine sign him, and then bring in the competition. I think they would just as soon cut ties to him and wouldn't be surprised to see Taylor go too. These guys are replaceable.
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You can compliment the value a QB gives you much if there’s more money to spend. A QB that gives you 80% of Jones year 1 and maybe at most gives you 110% of Jones by year 4 is much more tolerable at the price tag that he comes with.
If Jones gives you 65% of what you’d expect of franchise QB and rookie gives you 60%, it’s much easier to fill that 40% void with better talent with an extra $20 million to spend, than the 35% void with Jones on a contract that costs $20-30 million AAV.
The market is the market. He's a journeyman qb. The journeyman qb's are getting between 3 and 9 million on short term deal. Mariota is getting 9 million on a 2 year deal. Dalton is getting 3. Smith got 3.5 and Brisett got 4.6. Tyrod got 5.5 for 2 years. Heincke is getting about 2.5. All these guys (except Mariota and Taylor) are free agents after this season, and no doubt more will be released.
There is Jones' market assuming they want him back which I don't think they do. But, if he is willing to play for that kind of money, fine sign him, and then bring in the competition. I think they would just as soon cut ties to him and wouldn't be surprised to see Taylor go too. These guys are replaceable.
IF they can keep Jones on a one year deal along those lines I would bet every dollar I own he's here next season as the true bridge QB.
Whether Jones can get more on the open market remains to be seen. If he can't, he's back on a cheap deal like the ones you alluded to and there'[s nothing wrong with that. Keep the QB pipeline open and deploy a halfway decent option until he's found.
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In comment 15935614 gidiefor said:
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Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Annapolis Mike -- there were many, many times when Eli strapped the team on his back and led the way to a win, and when I as a watcher believed he could do it
So far - this year -- there has been more than enough evidence, that under pressure Jones is as much likely to be part of a whiffed play as not. There is something very awkward about him.
OK, let's compare Jones to a 2x Super Bowl MVP and future HOFer when most fans were ready to run him out of town before he got Plax.
I am not even a Jones apologist but this place is off their rocker.
If they don't trust Jones and they won't go to Taylor, then I am rethinking Daboll and his staff.
Easy to win with healthy bodies.
You have a running back making business decisions. Wideouts that can't catch. interior linemen that can't block. play callers going away from what was working and calls predictable plays over and over again.
The QB outrushes the star Running Back..
80% completion pct and the guy with the 2nd most drops in the league can't catch a ball that hits him in the hands.
Yet its the QB's fault.
unbelievable.
I don't get it. I really don't.
dude has nothing at wr, IOL getting abused and a all star RB who doesnt seem to be playing like it (of course with no OIL its not easy)
Not a huge jones fan but i would give him a 2 yr deal and ride with him
there is much worse out there
He knows what to look for.
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In comment 15935885 AnnapolisMike said:
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In comment 15935614 gidiefor said:
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Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Annapolis Mike -- there were many, many times when Eli strapped the team on his back and led the way to a win, and when I as a watcher believed he could do it
So far - this year -- there has been more than enough evidence, that under pressure Jones is as much likely to be part of a whiffed play as not. There is something very awkward about him.
Awkward? Eli is the definition of awkward ;-) Again...Eli was magical at times. But the Giants were 118-118 with him under center. I don't want to turn this into a thread that bashes one of the best QB's in NYG history. But Eli was profoundly average much of the time. And the Giants under Eli won playoff games in two seasons in his career. (good seasons)
Profoundly average because of inferior talent. Look at the last 5 years and how the record went south during that time frame. I mean if you want to start going that route have you heard of Fran Tarkenton? HOF quarterback but he had a record of 33-36 during his stay in NY. I am sure the fact that the Vikings had a lot better talent had no factor in him having a winning record overall lifetime!
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And still think he’s better than Tyrod. It’s not a binary situation.
They’re still trying to make the playoffs, so if they don’t trust him to let it rip they aren’t going to just do that to evaluate him and risk the playoffs.
I think they ended up in a position they didn't necessarily expect (not that they'll ever admit that), and BD is now trying to hold on to that playoff position and has gone super conservative.
+1.
what is the coach supposed to do? Call a drop back pass and get the qb killed or sacked?
for 10 years the o line has stunk and yet some here want to debate whether to keep Jones or Barkley. Honestly if they don't fix the o line they might as well let Jones and Barkley walk because neither will ever be effective behind this crap line.
Jones and or Barkley may not be great.
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In comment 15935746 map7711 said:
I don’t care how it s spun, no one knows if they believe in Jones or not, it s easy to spin any and all actions to support which ever narrative you want
I mean we couldn’t even agree if he played well on Sunday. I felt he did, evidently Sy did as well.
If the Giants move on from Jones it will be obvious they do not believe in him. Long time supporters like me will have to admit we were wrong.
But I have a feeling if the Giants resign him, and fans like me point to that as evidence they did after all believe in him, there will be much push back on this board.
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JV squad at WR.
Interior line a mess
TE having a bad game
All quotes from the review
Yet when the 4th down play happened- Coach doesn’t trust DJ?
Are ya kidding me? Maybe, just maybe, he doesn’t trust all the other crap around him?
Just a thought
***understand is this
Maybe he doesn’t trust the line to hold up? Would you?
Or Slayton and the rest of the JV squad to actually hold on to the ball or get open. Would you?
Or SB to get 3 tough yards? Would you?
Or anybody on the offense to make a darn play other than the QB? Would you?
Do we even have anything remotely resembling a decent slot receiver now?
We need to find out what we have in Jones in these "game on the line" situations. He can't claim to know what DJ will do until he sees him in actual game situations. We had a chance to find out and he punted. And to make matters worse, he didn't have his team prepared to run a clean play on the pivotal 3rd and 2 before that.
There was no harm in going for the win there. It's really frustrating he pussied out, and I agree it sets the opposite tone he claims he wanted. It's hard to reverse those perceptions too.
DJ has repeatedly been clutch in the 4th with the game the line, accounting for nearly every win we have.
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I really hope Julian Love gets signed. I wonder what money is he going to command. Top 10 safety money? I think he's earned that.
Definitely top 10 safety money
He might be looking for top 5 money. Looking at safeties his age who have signed long term deals he might be getting Marcus Williams type money: https://overthecap.com/player/marcus-williams/5628
safety contracts - ( New Window )
Tua has twice as many 20+yd completions on fewer passes thrown. Mariota, Tannehill and Davis Mills all have 30 or more, all on fewer completions.
Closer to Jones is the mighty Andy Dalton of the lowly Saints. Same number of 20+, almost identical number of 40+, Dalton has thrown 15tds to Jones's 11 on fewer throws. My biggest criticism of Jones remains as it always has been: he doesn't throw enough touchdowns. Using my eyes, I don't believe it all lies with the receiver corps. He is a very, very ordinary quarterback who tries hard. Can't question his character, but the skill and vision is not there. Doesn't read the game well enough or react quick enough. We have to move on from him.
I am convinced Schoen and Daboll feel the same way.
After all those games in Buffalo with Josh Allen, how could they not?
You may need to sign Jones and then draft someone in the second or third rounds to develop and take his place.
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In comment 15935885 AnnapolisMike said:
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In comment 15935614 gidiefor said:
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Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Annapolis Mike -- there were many, many times when Eli strapped the team on his back and led the way to a win, and when I as a watcher believed he could do it
So far - this year -- there has been more than enough evidence, that under pressure Jones is as much likely to be part of a whiffed play as not. There is something very awkward about him.
OK, let's compare Jones to a 2x Super Bowl MVP and future HOFer when most fans were ready to run him out of town before he got Plax.
I am not even a Jones apologist but this place is off their rocker.
If they don't trust Jones and they won't go to Taylor, then I am rethinking Daboll and his staff.
Easy to win with healthy bodies.
You have a running back making business decisions. Wideouts that can't catch. interior linemen that can't block. play callers going away from what was working and calls predictable plays over and over again.
The QB outrushes the star Running Back..
80% completion pct and the guy with the 2nd most drops in the league can't catch a ball that hits him in the hands.
Yet its the QB's fault.
unbelievable.
I agree. Jones may not be worth keeping but he far from being the problem
Tua has twice as many 20+yd completions on fewer passes thrown. Mariota, Tannehill and Davis Mills all have 30 or more, all on fewer completions.
Closer to Jones is the mighty Andy Dalton of the lowly Saints. Same number of 20+, almost identical number of 40+, Dalton has thrown 15tds to Jones's 11 on fewer throws. My biggest criticism of Jones remains as it always has been: he doesn't throw enough touchdowns. Using my eyes, I don't believe it all lies with the receiver corps. He is a very, very ordinary quarterback who tries hard. Can't question his character, but the skill and vision is not there. Doesn't read the game well enough or react quick enough. We have to move on from him.
I am convinced Schoen and Daboll feel the same way.
After all those games in Buffalo with Josh Allen, how could they not?
You cannot compare Jones' numbers to others with actual WRs. He has one semi-legit deep threat and a hodgepodge of low level free agents and castoffs. He lost his one legit TE to a fractured eye socket for 4 weeks. Sy calls this group the JV.
IMHO, he is not the answer at QB, but to throw numbers out there about deep plays is stretching reality.
Sometimes the truth is right in front of our eyes. Thank you.
Tua has twice as many 20+yd completions on fewer passes thrown. Mariota, Tannehill and Davis Mills all have 30 or more, all on fewer completions.
Closer to Jones is the mighty Andy Dalton of the lowly Saints. Same number of 20+, almost identical number of 40+, Dalton has thrown 15tds to Jones's 11 on fewer throws. My biggest criticism of Jones remains as it always has been: he doesn't throw enough touchdowns. Using my eyes, I don't believe it all lies with the receiver corps. He is a very, very ordinary quarterback who tries hard. Can't question his character, but the skill and vision is not there. Doesn't read the game well enough or react quick enough. We have to move on from him.
I am convinced Schoen and Daboll feel the same way.
After all those games in Buffalo with Josh Allen, how could they not?
Tua has Waddle and Hill. Slayton would be 3rd or 4th on their depth chart. Not a far comparison. The others are fair comparisons though and its not good for Daniel Jones and this offense.
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a solid read on Schoen/Daboll as to their views of Jones. I am not as certain as Sy seems. At times, I think they are willing to move on. At other times, I think they realize the limitations of the supporting cast and the progress he has made despite it.
I guess what I'm saying is I will not be shocked if they keep Jones or let him walk.
I also wonder how the 2023 QB class impacts all of this. On the surface, the class does not appear to be as strong as once anticipated.
This is spot on -- and is a very telling analysis. Daboll and Shoen have shown a propensity to say all the right things, and always state things as positively as they can about current players. They did that about Kadarius and then shot him out into the nether region.
I think that this is clearly what it appears to be. They are managing a tough situation, that they have already made the best of. If they need to keep Jones they don't want to have any words out there that will come back and bite them. But they have shown they can cut bait pretty quickly when the opportunity arises.
In my opinion there is no way Jones is the long term answer and they know it. When the right opportunity comes they will go for it. It will be sudden, swift, and decisive.
Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I wonder how much you trusted Eli up through Week 16 of the 2007 in that same scenario?
I wonder how Eli would have performed, during his 4th season, with this receiving corps and interior Oline?
I watched this same Corner Forum demand that TC be fired and Eli cut for most of that season. He was known as a turnover machine, right up until they went to Tampa that post-season....even with a near All-Star offensive roster.
Oh, btw I consider Eli to be the best Giants QB I have seen in my 50+ years watching the team....but be fair, he would have been buried by year 4 if this was his supporting cast.
I don't believe it's that he's "not running hard". It's that this is who he has been. He can make the occasional physical play like sy indicated but that's not his game
When he was at his best this year, he was more aggressive, but he still wasn't doing that. It's just that the blocking was better, the threat of the RPO with Jones was backing teams off, and the rest of the league was still learning the Giants tendencies. He did get hurt, and maybe that's made him a little more tentative.
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In comment 15935430 M.S. said:
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coached scared.
This! I put this on Daboll, not Jones. A coaching mistake.
He's made a few lately.
I don't mind a first time HC making mistakes. What is important is acknowledging and growing. I don't think there is anything suggesting he won't but time will tell.
Yea, let's defend a QB that is either a turnover machine, or puts up the production of a NFL backup
QB (there'sno in between), and throw the HC/OC that got that QB to 6-1, under the bus.
Now you're thinking!
They see him in practice, they see him in games, they see his film. They know what he's capable, and incapable, of. I'd bet they know more than know-nothing posters on the interwebs?
You may need to sign Jones and then draft someone in the second or third rounds to develop and take his place.
The only way Jones signs a contract to be the bridge to his own replacement is if all 31 other teams laugh at him
Is there a worse pass blocking RG and C than Feliciano and Glowinski. If you can’t protect up the middle you can’t design a drop back pass game.
Was WR: McClaurin, Samuel, Doctson. TE: Thomas
NY WR: Slayton, Hodgins, James. TE: Bellinger
Next week Philly
WR: Brown, Smith, Watkins
I really think you should include an introduction paragraph or two for the game. You always find interesting historical facts that make it worth reading. Simply starting an article with ‘QUARTERBACK’ is a bit jarring (at least to me).
If the game summary section isn’t coming back, could it be replaced by adding an additional link to Eric’s post-game article to the Gameday Preview/Review section?
That way there’s still a linear view of what happened in each game available for us to reference.
Yea, let's defend a QB that is either a turnover machine, or puts up the production of a NFL backup QB (there's no in between), and throw the HC/OC that got that QB to 6-1, under the bus.
Now you're thinking!
They see him in practice, they see him in games, they see his film. They know what he's capable, and incapable, of. I'd bet they know more than know-nothing posters on the interwebs?
This is not a bad post except, Jones has not been a turn over machine for a couple years. He has 7 total this year. If you make a good post, do not dilute it with opinion that is worthless. Remember that 6 of Jones' INTs last year were because Engram allowed the ball to bounce off his hands to a DB.
You may need to sign Jones and then draft someone in the second or third rounds to develop and take his place.
I'm in total agreement with you. I am regularly posting on here that Schoen's biggest challenge is to find a quarterback. The salary cap, the offensive line, wide receivers - all those will get sorted over the next couple of seasons. But quarterback? It's damn tricky. Supposedly there are some good quarterbacks coming through in the next two drafts, but I don't know how we get in a position to draft one without damaging our ability to strengthen elsewhere.
a) win the game
b) make the playoffs
c) continue the growth of Jones in the system (maintaining his and his teammates confidence)
I see a young QB who needs to be paired with a true #1 to take the next step.
a) win the game
b) make the playoffs
c) continue the growth of Jones in the system (maintaining his and his teammates confidence)
I see a young QB who needs to be paired with a true #1 to take the next step.
What if? But unlikely. When a pass game is limited it's always about the QB.
Lamar took a step with Andrews.
Tua took a step with Hill.
Hurts took a step with Brown.
Allen took a step with Diggs.
Eli took a step with Plax.
Brady took a step with Moss.
Could go on. Each of these players elevated their game and ranking amongst their peers when they were paired with a legitimate #1.
If Jones is top 15-20 now, and IMO he is with a bottom third skill group/front, he’ll improve commensurate to the improvement of his skill group and front.
Mara stated they hadn’t done enough to help him, in fact, they hurt his growth. Having him try to “air it out” with this skill group and front would be more of the same.
Lamar took a step with Andrews.
Tua took a step with Hill.
Hurts took a step with Brown.
Allen took a step with Diggs.
Eli took a step with Plax.
Brady took a step with Moss.
Could go on. Each of these players elevated their game and ranking amongst their peers when they were paired with a legitimate #1.
If Jones is top 15-20 now, and IMO he is with a bottom third skill group/front, he’ll improve commensurate to the improvement of his skill group and front.
Mara stated they hadn’t done enough to help him, in fact, they hurt his growth. Having him try to “air it out” with this skill group and front would be more of the same.
You had to get Tua and Hurts a legit #1 and #2.
The greater point remains but you know that….no need to nitpick.
Yes, Allen elevated his game when they got Diggs but he also has a better skill set. Tua’s skillset as a deep passer is better. Hurts and Jones are probably the same as throwers, but Hurts is very good at manipulating the pocket, something Jones hadn’t shown in his skillset.
It’s not really Apple to apples comparisons. You’re working off the assumption that Jones will take a similar jump but there’s nothing that suggests that’s a certainty.
Meanwhile Jones faceplanted between years 1 and 2 and is basically generating the same stats in year 4 that he did in years 2 and 3.
Frankly, this argument is ridiculous. Putting a clown on a stage with Shakespearean actors doesn't make the clown a Shakespearean actor. You get the Shakespearean actors when the clown displays a talent for acting.
Meanwhile Jones faceplanted between years 1 and 2 and is basically generating the same stats in year 4 that he did in years 2 and 3.
Frankly, this argument is ridiculous. Putting a clown on a stage with Shakespearean actors doesn't make the clown a Shakespearean actor. You get the Shakespearean actors when the clown displays a talent for acting.
And again, how do you know, based on the talent the Eagles have vs. The Giants overall? That team is freaking loaded. Put Jones on that Eagles squad and they have a similar record to what they have now. In my opinion.
If Hurts and Jones are interchangeable, why is Brown having a better year than he had with Tannehill?
If Hurts and Jones are interchangeable, why is Brown having a better year than he had with Tannehill?
The answer is in my post. That whole Eagles team is loaded. It makes a difference to every actual good player on the team when they play with peers who are that good. It's not just the QB. And if Sirianni is worth his salt, he tailors his play calling and overall offense to take advantage of whatever QB he has strengths and weaknesses. Which would be both more and less pronounced based on the skill level of the rest of the offense.
And again, that whole team is stacked. There are a LOT of pieces for defenses playing the Eagles to worry about. They have 3 WR that would become our #1 by a large margin. They have a very good OL. They have very good RBs. All made better by the fact that they are all good. I mean who is the weak point on that offense?
Regardless, anyone arguing that Jones wouldn’t improve with a legit #1 is just being obtuse.
Right...it's also the interior Oline and TEs.