And I think the point on Jones is why the constant debating (though I understand it’s what we do here) on Jones is pointless.
This regime has shown from the start how they feel about Jones, whether we like it or not. Whether we think he can be the future or needs to be gone.
It’s clear what they think. It’s not just the lack of weapons around him. They just don’t trust him and will likely be looking for a QB they pick to build around.
At the end of the first half. There is no reason to not trust Jones to take a shot into the end zone. He’s has played smart, limited turnover football for the season. It certainly has made me question my opinion of the coaching staff so I know it does for the players as well.
but why is not going for it on 4th and 3 an indictment of the qb instead of an indictment on the jv receivers? or the offense generally given that richie james couldn't get out of his own way in a similarly crucial spot?
also thought the decision there showed a lack of confidence in the defense to prevent the skins from getting 20 yards should the offense fail to convert.
not sure it's entirely fair to put that decision all on a lack of faith in the qb...
Whether from a loss of confidence while being targeted or just playing more playoff level snaps than he ever had before, his legs looked shot. In fact, on the PD you cited, a player with his legs under him picks that ball off.
That was a great call by Wink knowing they were going to Terry.
Well done, Sy. I have to agree that the biggest disappointment of this game was the lack of confidence shown by the HC. That and the utter lack of urgency when they had the ball at the end of the first half. It seemed that they were happy with a FG. Very disappointing.
You don't make it and WFT is like 15 yards away from a GW FG.
Eh...prob 20-25 yards
and if you get it (it is freakin 3 yards) you are in the drivers seat. Agree or disagree does not matter...this is coming from a HC that said he was going to play aggressive. The offense was finally clicking. They had to get 3 yards. They got 3+ 6 out of 7 plays and the one play they didn't was a miscommunication in the backfield.
They had the win right there and he chose not to pursue it.
There are other reasonable ways to look at the trust issue. Perhaps the coaches didn’t trust the OL & receivers to take the risk. Perhaps they made the calculation that the tie gives them a better chance to make the playoffs than a loss There is far more data that supports these possibilities, than there is about not trusting Jones.
Well, I guess people will unclog their ears now that Sy said it
Is a guy with all the power who runs like a finesse back. Where’s the angry runner with something to prove from early in the year. Is it the shoulder? I sometimes you just gotta run someone over for 3 yards.
I don’t get the “don’t trust Jones” narrative in this one. 16/16, then 8/8. I mean what more could he do? I don’t think they trust the whole O. And the Barkley James keystone kop play didn’t help, coming right before that key first. With the playoffs on the line I think Dabes and Kafka are getting tight and more not to lose.
All of that said, with a mess of a roster and injuries everywhere, we have 2 years worth of wins already based on the typical past decade’s performance. I say it’s house money, Dabes. Let it rip!
think Daboll is more conservative now because of the injuries and the fact that we have a winning record and are in playoff position. None of that was true in week one.
Get used to the fact that Jones will get a serious offer from the Giants & other teams, and only Jones will decide where he wants to play. You all better hope it’s the Giants. I for one do not want to go thru another 2-3 year rebuilding process…with more risks than Jones as the qb.
The clear take away by Dabs' decisions in the game, starting with the end of the 2nd quarter, are that the coaches have no confidence in Jones.
Jones-Barkley combo appears not to be the answer.
Eh. Watch the Twitter video of Evan Neal’s pass protection for the entire game. While he’s the focus, you get to see just how putrid the pass protection was, especially on the interior. I thought that clearly affected how the game was called. On the Giants first score of the game (FG), they didn’t even attempt to get the first down on a 3rd & 5 in WASH territory.
But to be fair to your point, I can’t explain what the coaching staff is doing sometimes. I still have no clue what they were doing at the end of the Cowboys game on Thanksgiving. It’s even more bizarre when you consider that they were aggressive at the end of the first half. While the focus for some is the QB, I’m not certain that they trust anyone.
Quote:
The playoff-bubble all of the sudden makes them scared to try and go for a win? This was Daboll’s biggest gaffe of the year and if you don’t think that decision changes the “mindset” (his words) of players moving forward, you are dead wrong. To me, it is no coincidence that Daboll is all of the sudden afraid to keep his foot on the gas is occurring at the same time as we are all seeing a drop off in aggression from Barkley. Good coaches dictate culture and confidence.
I think this is the big issue. The playoffs are right there and I think Daboll has gotten soft in the face of it.
was analytics driven. Not about the chances of picking it up but the chances of making the playoffs after a tie.
100% this. A win was not so much better than a tie. A loss was significantly worse, for playoff positioning. That's what shaped the strategy. I bet that they will not be so conservative the next time against Washington, when they need the win.
Daboll relies heavily on his analytics guys for game decisions I think. That's what that was. He even hinted at it in the postgame press conference:
Quote:
Q: Back to the fourth-and-3, you made that statement in the first game when you went for two. You were aggressive. Why not today?
A: Well, I think it's later in the season...
RE: RE: Huh? Going for it on 4th and 3 would have been fucking idiotic.
You don't make it and WFT is like 15 yards away from a GW FG.
Eh...prob 20-25 yards
and if you get it (it is freakin 3 yards) you are in the drivers seat. Agree or disagree does not matter...this is coming from a HC that said he was going to play aggressive. The offense was finally clicking. They had to get 3 yards. They got 3+ 6 out of 7 plays and the one play they didn't was a miscommunication in the backfield.
They had the win right there and he chose not to pursue it.
I see where you are coming from with respect to the proclamations of being an aggressive team, but the Giants got exactly what they wanted, a 3 and out with time left on the clock and the ball in good field position. If not for some serious officiating errors, and some poor clock management by Daboll himself not immediately calling a timeout after the Thibodeaux sack (correct me if I’m wrong but he let at least 8 seconds tick off after that sack), the Giants had more than adequate time to get into realistic FG range. He ensured the outcome was T or W, rather than risking the L, which would have been absolutely crushing. I’m OK with his decision to punt on 4th and 3, but I don’t think it’s clear cut “right” or “wrong” either way.
Jones completes over 80% no INTs, leading rusher, in the playoff picture with a sub-par offense - yet the coaches may not trust him and half the fans want a new QB. Very unusual situation.
With not going for it on 4&3 but not taking a shot in the end zone at the end of the first have is chicken shit type move.. you can’t talk the talk if you won’t walk the walk. It’s easy to be aggressive on the beginning of the season with low expectations. Doing it now with really consequences on the season is a whole different story.
I have been a big fan of Daboll but that move doesn’t sit well with me
I read the entire piece this time and enjoyed it thoroughly. Well done, and great points. I think this what you excel in and what our readers really want from you.
I read the entire piece this time and enjoyed it thoroughly. Well done, and great points. I think this what you excel in and what our readers really want from you.
Much appreciate all your insights. Lots and lots of information to ponder. Found these remarks you made about Daniel Jones particularly interesting:
"The biggest question surrounding him and his long-term outlook revolve around can he shoulder the entire offense in key moments? Can he do it? NYG could have used this game to help answer that question and they cowardly walked in the other direction."
"After watching the All-22, Jones played a good game, even keeping the first quarter fumble in mind."
"The lack of confidence Daboll showed on the 4th-and-3 was unwarranted from my perspective and may be more telling than some want to think. They do not believe in him."
You may have hit the nail on the head about how Daboll feels about Daniel Jones. If true, seems like one of two future paths for Daniel Jones:
(1) Giants sign him on a short-term deal as a bridge and/or back-up to somebody else; or,
(2) Daniel Jones will be playing for some other team in 2023.
Realizes they're where they are because of SB and the D. With SB becoming ineffective, he doesn't trust the rest of the offense, Jones included, to win the game
IOL, ILB, WR just keeping showing up and not in a good way unfortunately. Great description with SB and lack of being blue collar. Seems a case of picking your battle and wonder if the defenders size is not part of it.
Interesting take on the 4th and 3. I was very upset at first and then I thought about our D which had been on the field already for so many plays. If they failed I was not very confident the D could keep them out of FG range so I finished lukewarm on the decision to punt. There was enough time where both the run and pass were still in play.
At the end of regulation when they had a chance to win, Jones threw three passes:
1. The first, he didn't lead Slayton towards the sideline. Should've been caught, but he gave the safety a chance to make a play on the ball.
2. The second, he threw an uncatchable ball and negated a possible pass interference call.
3. The third was almost picked off when he tried to squeeze it into tight coverage.
Jones' detractors protest too much I think, but Jones did not seize the win when given the chance. And it shows.
The defense already bailed them out twice at the end of regulation AND earlier in the OT.
WAS had the ball on the NYG 43 with a FG to win it and the defense stopped. If the Giants don’t convert there, there is a great chance WAS wins and Daboll gets destroyed. Tie was a better outcome than a loss.
The added player reviews! thank so much SY. I feel like the play calling was so much more creative in the beginning of the season. No creative ways to get Saquon the ball, no misdirection. Not sure what Kafka's vison for this offense is anymore.
I read the entire piece this time and enjoyed it thoroughly. Well done, and great points. I think this what you excel in and what our readers really want from you.
I read the entire piece this time and enjoyed it thoroughly. Well done, and great points. I think this what you excel in and what our readers really want from you.
Barkley was a thorn in the Giants' side. First time I really thought(or allowed myself to see) he was not running hard. They really need to use Brightwell as the bulldog on short yardage - perhaps a two back set. Barkley's pass receiving is just poor this year. I was salivating at getting him into the passing game when the season started. It almost feels like Kafka is in a rut, now.
I thought the entire 2nd half, Kafka called a weak game. I was pissed enough to turn it off at 7:48 left in the 4th.
FWIW, the punt on 4th and 3 was probably the right call. We don't like it, but ...
Question- Despite Jones doing an excellent job of hitting the guys that he threw to, watching the All-22, did you see any targeting opportunities that he missed?
a solid read on Schoen/Daboll as to their views of Jones. I am not as certain as Sy seems. At times, I think they are willing to move on. At other times, I think they realize the limitations of the supporting cast and the progress he has made despite it.
I guess what I'm saying is I will not be shocked if they keep Jones or let him walk.
I also wonder how the 2023 QB class impacts all of this. On the surface, the class does not appear to be as strong as once anticipated.
Before the game I said this will be the game Jones needs to put the team on his back and win. It was the perfect opportunity to see if he could and the Coaching didn't give him a chance to . They played not to lose and coached their QB that way. I would have preferred to see Jones not perform and know for sure he ain't the guy. Apparently they must already know. I hope they are right cause if he goes somewhere next year and lights it up games like this will be remembered. Barkley is either hurt or back to his old ways. If he's hurt then why haven't Brightwell and Breida gotten more carries? Very frustrating game overall and to be honest even if they won I d be thinking the same thing. And Sy I loved your knew format. Right to the important stuff. Spot on right to the point what you saw and think. Thank you.
I too liked the new format. Any thought to adding a section dedicated to reviewing the coaches performance.
This is not because this week there is a lot of focus on Dabol's possible lack of aggressiveness. There was Kafka's play calling and the ongoing risk reward of when Wink needs to blitz or pull back.
Look, I am "meh" on whether Jones goes or stays.....
a solid read on Schoen/Daboll as to their views of Jones. I am not as certain as Sy seems. At times, I think they are willing to move on. At other times, I think they realize the limitations of the supporting cast and the progress he has made despite it.
I guess what I'm saying is I will not be shocked if they keep Jones or let him walk.
I also wonder how the 2023 QB class impacts all of this. On the surface, the class does not appear to be as strong as once anticipated.
They can definitely putz this up. No FA out there better than Jones and we got at best a middling 1st round draft pick. Yeah was excited about the QB class preseasons but I definitely feel cock blocked by the class now.
Before the game I said this will be the game Jones needs to put the team on his back and win. It was the perfect opportunity to see if he could and the Coaching didn't give him a chance to . They played not to lose and coached their QB that way. I would have preferred to see Jones not perform and know for sure he ain't the guy. Apparently they must already know. I hope they are right cause if he goes somewhere next year and lights it up games like this will be remembered. Barkley is either hurt or back to his old ways. If he's hurt then why haven't Brightwell and Breida gotten more carries? Very frustrating game overall and to be honest even if they won I d be thinking the same thing. And Sy I loved your knew format. Right to the important stuff. Spot on right to the point what you saw and think. Thank you.
I agree with this- I'd much rather have sacrificed some win expectancy to give Jones a chance to sink/swim in a real NFL offense.
But we have to realize that this is the offense they designed for him. It's not like they came in from BUF and KC with this playback. They built it early based on what they saw. And it worked in terms of winning games. It's probably not easy to make big changes mid season.
when Barkley and James ran into each other on the 3rd and 2, I think that's when Daboll said fuck it, this could end up being a disaster so lets just punt.
Calling anyone who says similar a hater or a moron now right?
Quote:
The lack of confidence Daboll showed on the 4th-and-3 was unwarranted from my perspective and may be more telling than some want to think. They do not believe in him. How many head coaches who are confident in their quarterback make that decision? Almost NONE.
a solid read on Schoen/Daboll as to their views of Jones. I am not as certain as Sy seems. At times, I think they are willing to move on. At other times, I think they realize the limitations of the supporting cast and the progress he has made despite it.
I guess what I'm saying is I will not be shocked if they keep Jones or let him walk.
I also wonder how the 2023 QB class impacts all of this. On the surface, the class does not appear to be as strong as once anticipated.
Eric, IMV, Jones is still an enigma. Sometimes he looks lost and uncommitted. Other times he looks just fine. His running for a QB is top notch. He is decisive on when to leave the pocket and most times makes positive plays
I have come to the belief it is time to move on. He just does not seem to make the quick, decisive throws that virtually every NFL QB makes. Some say he processes slowly. I am not convinced of that. He just seems reluctant on occasion to let it go - perhaps it is just lack of confidence in himself(and perhaps that is the processing others talk about).
It seems Sy is just as "non-committal"(for lack of a better word) on Jones. He has given Jones several positive writeups while noting the "JV" WR corps. A few times he mentioned that Jones did about all he could do with what he has around him. Perhaps it is professional courtesy of not disparaging a player in public that keeps him from saying more.
If Daboll and Schoen decide to bring him back, I will be surprised. I also believe that Barkley may be losing his re-signing with the Giants. He has come up small in the past month as he seems uncommitted to make the hard runs that pickup 1st downs.
to the two plays requiring a 3 yard pass in another game and Jones threw one out of the receiver's reach and the other behind the receiver. You can bet Daboll didn't forget.
And you all were apparently not also paying attention to the current defensive formula- stop Barkley and make the passing game beat you. The other team gets paid too, and they are telling you by the defense they play what they are most worried about.
when Barkley and James ran into each other on the 3rd and 2, I think that's when Daboll said fuck it, this could end up being a disaster so lets just punt.
I agree. And punting the ball, pinning Wash deep, and relying on the D to get a stop so you can get the ball back with a chance to kick the game winning field goal isn't a bad plan at all. It's much less risky than going for it on 4th and 3 near mid-field and, in fact, it almost worked.
Calling anyone who says similar a hater or a moron now right?
Quote:
The lack of confidence Daboll showed on the 4th-and-3 was unwarranted from my perspective and may be more telling than some want to think. They do not believe in him. How many head coaches who are confident in their quarterback make that decision? Almost NONE.
While I agree it is time to move on, you also left the preceding sentences out of the section you quoted from Sy -
Quote:
The quick decisions and play-making ability he created with his legs. After watching the All-22, Jones played a good game, even keeping the first quarter fumble in mind.
think Daboll is more conservative now because of the injuries and the fact that we have a winning record and are in playoff position. None of that was true in week one.
Calling anyone who says similar a hater or a moron now right?
Quote:
The lack of confidence Daboll showed on the 4th-and-3 was unwarranted from my perspective and may be more telling than some want to think. They do not believe in him. How many head coaches who are confident in their quarterback make that decision? Almost NONE.
While I agree it is time to move on, you also left the preceding sentences out of the section you quoted from Sy -
Quote:
The quick decisions and play-making ability he created with his legs. After watching the All-22, Jones played a good game, even keeping the first quarter fumble in mind.
Not sure how that’s relevant. Never said he had a bad game. But anyone who even remotely suggested they don’t fully trust him has been shot down as a moron on here, especially by a certain plump fellow.
if there's ever a kitchen sink game with Jones it is this coming Sunday, we will see how Daboll/Kafka calls it
I don't know. This was a winnable game and a great situation to answer some serious questions, and it feels like it just added more questions. It's going to be much harder to judge anything against a better quality of opponent like that.
If the Eagles game goes poorly, and it has every reason to the way the Giants are trending, it's going to be really easy to write it off as just getting handled by one of the best teams in the league that way outclasses NYG.
was analytics driven. Not about the chances of picking it up but the chances of making the playoffs after a tie.
100% this. A win was not so much better than a tie. A loss was significantly worse, for playoff positioning. That's what shaped the strategy. I bet that they will not be so conservative the next time against Washington, when they need the win.
Daboll relies heavily on his analytics guys for game decisions I think. That's what that was. He even hinted at it in the postgame press conference:
Quote:
Q: Back to the fourth-and-3, you made that statement in the first game when you went for two. You were aggressive. Why not today?
to the two plays requiring a 3 yard pass in another game and Jones threw one out of the receiver's reach and the other behind the receiver. You can bet Daboll didn't forget.
And you all were apparently not also paying attention to the current defensive formula- stop Barkley and make the passing game beat you. The other team gets paid too, and they are telling you by the defense they play what they are most worried about.
I know your position on Jones and I'm not going to argue one way or the other at this point.
But the nitpicking about individual throws has gotten a bit ridiculous. If Giants fans expect a cyborg to play QB for the Giants, it's not happening. Even the best QBs miss throws.
Personally, I find the ongoing thread on the Slayton drop very enlightening. The pretzel twisting by some on that thread is amazing.
It's dismaying to think that Daboll doesn't trust Jones there
And even more so to think that maybe Daboll is shrinking under the expectations. It's easy to have balls when your not expected to win or not playing for anything important. Tough guy week 1 with no expectations, wimp week 13 with a chance to make the playoffs? That's a scary thought.
Agree Sy that Barkley makes too many "business decisions"
He took a pass in overtime, looked at a defender about to meet him just beyond the line of scrimmage, and used his 225+ frame and tree trunk legs to drive the defender back multiple yards. NYG picked up seven on the play. He is clearly capable of playing the power game. He clearly does not do so on a consistent basis. A 225+ pound back with elite movement traits is averaging 2.75 yards after contact per carry. That ranks 28th in the NFL among backs with over 100 carries. Behind the likes of Devin Singletary, Isaiah Pacheco, Raheem Mosert, D’Onta Foreman, Tyler Allgeier, and Khalil Herbert to name a few. Multiple things needed to be better when it comes to this running game, but it starts with #26.
Special talent, but pretty maddening as a runner.
And for all the avoiding contact, he still gets hurt. So it's not serving a purpose.
Not sure how that’s relevant. Never said he had a bad game. But anyone who even remotely suggested they don’t fully trust him has been shot down as a moron on here, especially by a certain plump fellow.
Maybe the don't trust him, or the Oline or the RBs or the WRs or all of the above.
I do think it is time to move on, but he was easily the best player on offense Sunday.
a solid read on Schoen/Daboll as to their views of Jones. I am not as certain as Sy seems. At times, I think they are willing to move on. At other times, I think they realize the limitations of the supporting cast and the progress he has made despite it.
I guess what I'm saying is I will not be shocked if they keep Jones or let him walk.
I also wonder how the 2023 QB class impacts all of this. On the surface, the class does not appear to be as strong as once anticipated.
This is spot on -- and is a very telling analysis. Daboll and Shoen have shown a propensity to say all the right things, and always state things as positively as they can about current players. They did that about Kadarius and then shot him out into the nether region.
I think that this is clearly what it appears to be. They are managing a tough situation, that they have already made the best of. If they need to keep Jones they don't want to have any words out there that will come back and bite them. But they have shown they can cut bait pretty quickly when the opportunity arises.
In my opinion there is no way Jones is the long term answer and they know it. When the right opportunity comes they will go for it. It will be sudden, swift, and decisive.
Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
Agree on Hodgins. What do you see his ceiling as? Could he be what McKenzie brings to Buffalo as a #3?
This too +1
I love this kid….big, great hands, solid body….doesn’t look like he would be injured a lot like some of our other smaller fragile WRs (and that included Toney)
...an economical way to keep Ward around. I think there's a shot as his athletic limitations will probably prevent any team paying him to be one of their top 2 guys. He's been flexible and productive and has so much dog in him which has been critical considering the number of times the defense is in rough spots with the offense being so criminally undermanned in terms of pass catchers.
a solid read on Schoen/Daboll as to their views of Jones. I am not as certain as Sy seems. At times, I think they are willing to move on. At other times, I think they realize the limitations of the supporting cast and the progress he has made despite it.
I guess what I'm saying is I will not be shocked if they keep Jones or let him walk.
I also wonder how the 2023 QB class impacts all of this. On the surface, the class does not appear to be as strong as once anticipated.
I feel exactly the same way. They didn't pick up Jones's fifth year option, but that was expected. They were both new, and needed to see him for themselves. And now he's dealing with a porous interior OL and the worst WRs in the league. His only deep threat likely would have been cut if he had not agreed to a pay cut. But the counter argument that he doesn't process quickly enough is also valid.
I don't think they will sign him to a long-term contract this offseason, but I could see a two year deal or even the FT. I agree that other options for QB will at least to some extent affect their decision and any offer.
Jones is the most polarizing player in the history of BBI IMO. And yet after four and a half years, I still don't know what they should do with him.
Agree on Hodgins. What do you see his ceiling as? Could he be what McKenzie brings to Buffalo as a #3?
This too +1
I love this kid….big, great hands, solid body….doesn’t look like he would be injured a lot like some of our other smaller fragile WRs (and that included Toney)
That route he ran for the TD was so crisp it should be on tapes teaching kids how to play WR. Reminded me how Odell would run his short area routes.
(and I said it back in September)... if the Giants are moving on from Saquon, Schoen screwed up by not trading him before the deadline when he was on fire.
That's easy for me to say however. If Saquon was traded by the deadline, and then the team went on its current downswing, the fan base would have blamed Schoen for wasting a playoff run.
(and I said it back in September)... if the Giants are moving on from Saquon, Schoen screwed up by not trading him before the deadline when he was on fire.
That's easy for me to say however. If Saquon was traded by the deadline, and then the team went on its current downswing, the fan base would have blamed Schoen for wasting a playoff run.
Yep, you just answered it. These vacuums aren’t made in a vacuum. Also, at that point they could have lost the locker room considering Saquon *IS* the offense.
Flawless if what you care about is completion percentage. It was very much a Chad Pennington performance. Short throws completed for a high percentage with few errors and little production.
I think many were hoping to see a lot more out of Jones. Based on what Sy wrote, the staff does not trust this passing game at all. That is not just about the WRs.
At the end of regulation when they had a chance to win, Jones threw three passes:
1. The first, he didn't lead Slayton towards the sideline. Should've been caught, but he gave the safety a chance to make a play on the ball.
2. The second, he threw an uncatchable ball and negated a possible pass interference call.
3. The third was almost picked off when he tried to squeeze it into tight coverage.
Jones' detractors protest too much I think, but Jones did not seize the win when given the chance. And it shows.
Your first point is just not true. He DID lead him towards the sidelines which is why he twisted in the air.
Point 2 is also wrong. Slayton ran a poor route that was too close to the sidelines and didn't give DJ any space to make the throw. It was a chronic problem that Manningham had, and Slayton made the same mistake.
Since you apparently watch video of other teams, do you consider Love a good bet to get a pro bowl nod at safety?
If you think the Giants have "JV WRs", wouldn't it make sense for Daboll to play the game more conservatively and be more selective when he chooses to press the accelerator?
What is the point of playing the QB if you don’t believe in him. It would be much easier to find his replacement by losing and getting a better pick
I really think that in critical situations they do not trust the interior OLand the WRs not the QB. I think even Barkley is giving them some pause
I thought that was the case at the end of the first half. The play caller can tell the QB to throw the ball out of the end zone if nothing is wide open, but they can’t do anything about horrendous pass protection and risk a sack there.
What is the point of playing the QB if you don’t believe in him. It would be much easier to find his replacement by losing and getting a better pick
I really think that in critical situations they do not trust the interior OLand the WRs not the QB. I think even Barkley is giving them some pause
I thought that was the case at the end of the first half. The play caller can tell the QB to throw the ball out of the end zone if nothing is wide open, but they can’t do anything about horrendous pass protection and risk a sack there.
They had a timeout and we’re at the 19 though. A sack keeps them in field goal range and they end up with the same result they did running him.
to the two plays requiring a 3 yard pass in another game and Jones threw one out of the receiver's reach and the other behind the receiver. You can bet Daboll didn't forget.
And you all were apparently not also paying attention to the current defensive formula- stop Barkley and make the passing game beat you. The other team gets paid too, and they are telling you by the defense they play what they are most worried about.
Exactly. This is why it occurred to me recently that without Daniel Jones as a RPO/scrambling threat, this entire offense is dead in the water.
No passing game means stuff Barkley and stop the Giants. Can give us the best 5 linemen in the NFL and they aren't going to make ground against 8-9 in the box.
When Jones runs, it helps run blocking for Barkley since less defenders are committed to him. This, in turn, opens up play action and our meager passing game.
When Jones is just a drop back passer, he's ineffectual. What % is him versus the 'receivers' will be infinitely debated.
the one play to me that really calls into question whether they trust DJ is the decision to run at the end of the half. There is almost no negative consequence to trying to see if you can make a play in the endzone UNLESS you don't trust the QB to simply throw the ball in the stands if nothing is there.
That call to me was more questionable and more cowardly than not going for it on 4th and 3.
Point 2 is also wrong. Slayton ran a poor route that was too close to the sidelines and didn't give DJ any space to make the throw. It was a chronic problem that Manningham had, and Slayton made the same mistake.
Took Toomer until his 3rd season to learn that and how to shield the DB from the ball.
didn't they go aggressive three straight plays? Slayton drops the first one. Then nothing positive on the next 2.
Those next 2 are the ones I'm wondering if Jones missed seeing an opportunity. DJ clearly came through on the first one, and Slayton dropped it. I can't remember the next two, just that they were passing plays that malfunctioned.
So, the coaches did give at least a limited opportunity to Jones and the receivers.
I'm on the fence regarding DJ, but have no confidence in the receiving group. Not hard to project that onto the coaching staff.
It's easy to say 'Jones has to put the team on his back', but if the receivers drop passes, or can't get open, or the interior of the OL can't do it's job (or get stupid penalties taking you out of FG range), what do you expect Jones to do?
it seems obvious how people even now pick and choose what SY said to back their points but ignore other parts SY said that would go against them.
For all the Jones trust comments you must have missed the part where he feels the staff doesn't trust Barkley to do what is needed later in the game. How about the fact that Barkley doesn't run physical a LOT of the time and has one of the lowest yards after contact by backs with 100 carries or more?
The love for Barkley here is just crazy. You do realize his best games have also been when Jones has had really good running games too? I actually feel like it works best when both are running well- the limitations of our offense can be covered by some by creating indecision in defenders..
Barkley over the last 6 games has done things like he did last year (turns his back at contact- losing all power) a LOT. He slows up at the sideline for some reason as if giving up but in a weird awkward way. His vision is also a bit off as he tends to run to congestion, almost avoiding possible clean hits for more yardage to get into a jumbled area where the contact comes from a number of bodies vs power hits or attempts in a more open setting. So basically he is looking for the jumbled mess to sort of ease the hit and takes less yards because of it.
(and I said it back in September)... if the Giants are moving on from Saquon, Schoen screwed up by not trading him before the deadline when he was on fire.
That's easy for me to say however. If Saquon was traded by the deadline, and then the team went on its current downswing, the fan base would have blamed Schoen for wasting a playoff run.
good point. As for the 2nd point, those are the decisions that GMs get paid to make and take the heat for.
it seems obvious how people even now pick and choose what SY said to back their points but ignore other parts SY said that would go against them.
For all the Jones trust comments you must have missed the part where he feels the staff doesn't trust Barkley to do what is needed later in the game. How about the fact that Barkley doesn't run physical a LOT of the time and has one of the lowest yards after contact by backs with 100 carries or more?
The love for Barkley here is just crazy. You do realize his best games have also been when Jones has had really good running games too? I actually feel like it works best when both are running well- the limitations of our offense can be covered by some by creating indecision in defenders..
Barkley over the last 6 games has done things like he did last year (turns his back at contact- losing all power) a LOT. He slows up at the sideline for some reason as if giving up but in a weird awkward way. His vision is also a bit off as he tends to run to congestion, almost avoiding possible clean hits for more yardage to get into a jumbled area where the contact comes from a number of bodies vs power hits or attempts in a more open setting. So basically he is looking for the jumbled mess to sort of ease the hit and takes less yards because of it.
I'm not excusing Barkley -- he hasn't been the same since the 35 carry game
it seems obvious how people even now pick and choose what SY said to back their points but ignore other parts SY said that would go against them.
For all the Jones trust comments you must have missed the part where he feels the staff doesn't trust Barkley to do what is needed later in the game. How about the fact that Barkley doesn't run physical a LOT of the time and has one of the lowest yards after contact by backs with 100 carries or more?
The love for Barkley here is just crazy. You do realize his best games have also been when Jones has had really good running games too? I actually feel like it works best when both are running well- the limitations of our offense can be covered by some by creating indecision in defenders..
Barkley over the last 6 games has done things like he did last year (turns his back at contact- losing all power) a LOT. He slows up at the sideline for some reason as if giving up but in a weird awkward way. His vision is also a bit off as he tends to run to congestion, almost avoiding possible clean hits for more yardage to get into a jumbled area where the contact comes from a number of bodies vs power hits or attempts in a more open setting. So basically he is looking for the jumbled mess to sort of ease the hit and takes less yards because of it.
It’s not picking and choosing, it’s talking about certain topics. I don’t think anyone would disagree that Barkley needs to play better. But as for Barkleys best games have come when Jones has had a good running day is simply not true.
Hou: Barkley 152, Jones 24
Ravens: Barkley 88, Jones 6
Tennessee: Barkley 166, Jones 25
The Green Bay, Chicago and Jaguar game you’d be correct. So it’s really 50-50.
1) It is so interesting to see how coaches (in this case, Daboll) seem to get more conservative as their tenure wears on... is it the pressure of trying to win? is it lack of confidence in the players (Jones, WRs, O Line)? or something else. But as others have said, this recent stretch of games do take the shine off a bit with this coaching staff.
2) Since Sy's commentary on Jones seems to be a running debate, let it be known he said DJ played a quality game (no need to repeat his indiv comments here)... and yet, it should also be said that Sy thinks the coaching staff have limited confidence in him. Interesting, for sure and the off season bears close watching.
3) There is no reason to sign Saquon for anything other than an extremely team friendly deal. Spend that $$ on the O Line, LBers, and possibly, if the brass think it is warranted, a new QB
4) I laugh when I read Sy's well thought and professional player reviews and then read a bunch of yahoo's still pushing their agenda after only watching the game half in the bag from their couch... (no reason to name names, you know who are, probably)
the rest of this season should be very interesting... I hope we end the season still confident in this coaching staff.
JV squad at WR.
Interior line a mess
TE having a bad game
All quotes from the review
Yet when the 4th down play happened- Coach doesn’t trust DJ?
Are ya kidding me? Maybe, just maybe, he doesn’t trust all the other crap around him?
Just a thought
***understand is this
Maybe he doesn’t trust the line to hold up? Would you?
Or Slayton and the rest of the JV squad to actually hold on to the ball or get open. Would you?
Or SB to get 3 tough yards? Would you?
Or anybody on the offense to make a darn play other than the QB? Would you?
A point that a lot of people are leaving out about not trusting Jones...it is UNWARRANTED.
You can argue whether he was making great passes but you can't argue that he was executing the plays called.
If Kafka is telling him to run the screen that has been useless all year...all Jones can do is throw the screen complete.
It probably wouldn't look good on his resume going rogue in a contract year.
Love the new format with more info on player thoughts.
I came with the same assessment regarding coaching and Jones, and just weapons as well. It’a clear they don’t have much faith in Jones. I don’t get a lot of these play calls from earlier in the year when they showed some aggression and played to win than play so conservative and just tried to hang in it seems. I get that the difference is then we had Shepard, Robinson, some better health on the OL and elsewhere. Now we are depleated, but you have to still play to win the game. I don’t know I just don’t know what to make of it.
Really can’t wait to read your WR write ups we will need to draft 2-3 next year for sure. Not having a threat or reliable weapon at WR at all makes this offense incredibly one dimensional. Will be an interesting off season. I don’t know what they do with Barkley or Jones, I could see them tagging Barkley and drafting a RB. Then maybe trading Barkley on the tag to get something in return for him. He just doesn’t seem like someone that is long for this team, his play while we get glimpses here and there of some specialness, they are too far and few between. Age and injuries catching up to him, I think it’s time to move in to a cheaper option.
on his own side of the fifty in Dallas. After 5 quarters where the ball hardly hit the ground Daboll does a 180 and doesn't trust him anymore???
It doesn't make sense.
It makes sense when you look at more in depth. They were down two scored against Dallas. They had to trust him. The end of the first half against Washington and their 4th and 3 they were down three or tied.
Basically they don’t trust him enough to take risks when the game isn’t immediately in the balance. They’d rather punt there, pin Washington back and take a chance getting the ball back. If they were down they probably go for it there.
JV squad at WR.
Interior line a mess
TE having a bad game
All quotes from the review
Yet when the 4th down play happened- Coach doesn’t trust DJ?
Are ya kidding me? Maybe, just maybe, he doesn’t trust all the other crap around him?
Just a thought
***understand is this
Maybe he doesn’t trust the line to hold up? Would you?
Or Slayton and the rest of the JV squad to actually hold on to the ball or get open. Would you?
Or SB to get 3 tough yards? Would you?
Or anybody on the offense to make a darn play other than the QB? Would you?
Do we even have anything remotely resembling a decent slot receiver now?
on his own side of the fifty in Dallas. After 5 quarters where the ball hardly hit the ground Daboll does a 180 and doesn't trust him anymore???
It doesn't make sense.
It makes sense when you look at more in depth. They were down two scored against Dallas. They had to trust him. The end of the first half against Washington and their 4th and 3 they were down three or tied.
Basically they don’t trust him enough to take risks when the game isn’t immediately in the balance. They’d rather punt there, pin Washington back and take a chance getting the ball back. If they were down they probably go for it there.
I said, this isn't week one. We were a lot healthier and not in playoff position. I think Daboll should have gone for it on fourth and three but I'm not stunned he didn't.
They were that’s my mistake, but they also absolutely needed to get points on that drive. The defense had been on the field for 8 minutes the drive before. Dallas ended up scoring on the next drive, but they probably would have even if the Giants punted. 4th and 1 is also different than 4th and 3.
on his own side of the fifty in Dallas. After 5 quarters where the ball hardly hit the ground Daboll does a 180 and doesn't trust him anymore???
It doesn't make sense.
It makes sense when you look at more in depth. They were down two scored against Dallas. They had to trust him. The end of the first half against Washington and their 4th and 3 they were down three or tied.
Basically they don’t trust him enough to take risks when the game isn’t immediately in the balance. They’d rather punt there, pin Washington back and take a chance getting the ball back. If they were down they probably go for it there.
I though the Giants were down 1 score in Dallas?
1 point. So the game was “in the balance” down one point 6 mins gone from the 3rd quarter but not in sudden death ? That makes even less sense
I'm surprised by you comments or lack thereof on Richie James. I still dread everytime the other team punts but now you can add dreading everytime he is on the field. The confusion on his part in the backfield is another instance of why James most likely has not stuck with any other team. Whether its lack of knowledge after week 13 or pure empty headedness, he should not have been involved in that play and I think Dabolls lack of confidence my be in part to his supporting cast. He had nothing to lose week one. Now he's got the likes of Crowder complaining about playing time, fans expecting the playoffs and media waiting for expected mistakes. I think this game pointed out extremely well the exact positions we need to fill or upgrade this offseason. No wondering if we can get by with Moreau at CB or James at WR. We can't
Also going for it from 4th and 3 where Washington just needs just a FG is way riskier than the play against Dallas. The Giants defense had been dominating in the second half for the most part. Against Dallas they weren’t and 13 points weren’t going to win that game. They likely felt it was worth pinning Washington deep and relying on the defense to get a turnover or else a tie, as opposed to going for it. They almost ended up with a game winning sack too. I’d wager not converting the Dallas opportunity was in the back of their mind when making the decision.
(and I said it back in September)... if the Giants are moving on from Saquon, Schoen screwed up by not trading him before the deadline when he was on fire.
That's easy for me to say however. If Saquon was traded by the deadline, and then the team went on its current downswing, the fan base would have blamed Schoen for wasting a playoff run.
You could not have traded Saquon at that time. Forget the fan base. It tells the team you’ve quit. You can’t quit on your team. Not as a player, a coach or a GM.
Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
What if the Giants got 80% of what Jones gives them from a rookie, with a better roster around him because there’s more around?
Jones rookie year gets touted a lot and the supporting cast was arguably worse, especially along the offensive line. If we got 80% of that year 1 I think that would be viewed as a success.
Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Annapolis Mike -- there were many, many times when Eli strapped the team on his back and led the way to a win, and when I as a watcher believed he could do it
So far - this year -- there has been more than enough evidence, that under pressure Jones is as much likely to be part of a whiffed play as not. There is something very awkward about him.
a solid read on Schoen/Daboll as to their views of Jones. I am not as certain as Sy seems. At times, I think they are willing to move on. At other times, I think they realize the limitations of the supporting cast and the progress he has made despite it.
I guess what I'm saying is I will not be shocked if they keep Jones or let him walk.
I also wonder how the 2023 QB class impacts all of this. On the surface, the class does not appear to be as strong as once anticipated.
I feel exactly the same way. They didn't pick up Jones's fifth year option, but that was expected. They were both new, and needed to see him for themselves. And now he's dealing with a porous interior OL and the worst WRs in the league. His only deep threat likely would have been cut if he had not agreed to a pay cut. But the counter argument that he doesn't process quickly enough is also valid.
I don't think they will sign him to a long-term contract this offseason, but I could see a two year deal or even the FT. I agree that other options for QB will at least to some extent affect their decision and any offer.
Jones is the most polarizing player in the history of BBI IMO. And yet after four and a half years, I still don't know what they should do with him.
We need to find out what we have in Jones in these "game on the line" situations. He can't claim to know what DJ will do until he sees him in actual game situations. We had a chance to find out and he punted. And to make matters worse, he didn't have his team prepared to run a clean play on the pivotal 3rd and 2 before that.
There was no harm in going for the win there. It's really frustrating he pussied out, and I agree it sets the opposite tone he claims he wanted. It's hard to reverse those perceptions too.
Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Annapolis Mike -- there were many, many times when Eli strapped the team on his back and led the way to a win, and when I as a watcher believed he could do it
So far - this year -- there has been more than enough evidence, that under pressure Jones is as much likely to be part of a whiffed play as not. There is something very awkward about him.
Awkward? Eli is the definition of awkward ;-) Again...Eli was magical at times. But the Giants were 118-118 with him under center. I don't want to turn this into a thread that bashes one of the best QB's in NYG history. But Eli was profoundly average much of the time. And the Giants under Eli won playoff games in two seasons in his career. (good seasons)
Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Annapolis Mike -- there were many, many times when Eli strapped the team on his back and led the way to a win, and when I as a watcher believed he could do it
So far - this year -- there has been more than enough evidence, that under pressure Jones is as much likely to be part of a whiffed play as not. There is something very awkward about him.
Eli had ELITE receivers and TE's ... Come on now, it is ok to believe Jones isn't the guy it is another to use a a completely slanted argument to try and prove your point.
Everyone of Eli's receiving corps were better than Jones's group this year and it isn't even close. Seriously, Reuben Randle would hands down be the #1 WR here right now and Sinorce Moss would be James. Hell, Ramses Barden would be a top 3...
What if the Giants got 80% of what Jones gives them from a rookie, with a better roster around him because there’s more around?
Jones rookie year gets touted a lot and the supporting cast was arguably worse, especially along the offensive line. If we got 80% of that year 1 I think that would be viewed as a success.
I would take 80% of Jones from a rookie. But you are taking a big risk that a QB even gets to 100% of Jones, much less the 125% needed to really make it worthwhile (taking $ out of the equation) Wanna get rid of Jones...fine. Whats the plan when drafting late in the first round with the needs the Giants have.
You can compliment the value a QB gives you much if there’s more money to spend. A QB that gives you 80% of Jones year 1 and maybe at most gives you 110% of Jones by year 4 is much more tolerable at the price tag that he comes with.
If Jones gives you 65% of what you’d expect of franchise QB and rookie gives you 60%, it’s much easier to fill that 40% void with better talent with an extra $20 million to spend, than the 35% void with Jones on a contract that costs $20-30 million AAV.
that Daboll has backed off aggressiveness, and also missed an op to really evaluate DJ: unless they already have made decisions on him.
Its tough. I think some of you guys want to see Jones slinging it all over the place - that much has even been referenced for the upcoming eagles game. The problem is he has Slay and Bradberry on who? Richie James and Slayton? All while not being able to step up in the pocket on most drop backs... Its near impossible to evaluate some of the things people want evaluated as currently constructed.
Jones and Barkley conversations and go another route.
Boy was our interior OL bad and I give Sy credit, if you've been reading his reviews he's been pounding the drum for a top notch guard for years. We brought a lot of bodies in at the interior positions, but its time to go and get a top tier guy or two. We seem to have the tackle position solved for a good while.
that Daboll has backed off aggressiveness, and also missed an op to really evaluate DJ: unless they already have made decisions on him.
Joe Beckwith - if they've already made decisions without actually finding out what he does in a real game, that's pretty weird. What's the harm in actually giving him a shot there? The harm in NOT giving him a shot is what Sy mentioned, and that's tough to come back from. Potentially costly rookie mistake by a first time HC IMO.
I don't think Daboll has changed much re: aggressiveness
Jones and Barkley conversations and go another route.
Boy was our interior OL bad and I give Sy credit, if you've been reading his reviews he's been pounding the drum for a top notch guard for years. We brought a lot of bodies in at the interior positions, but its time to go and get a top tier guy or two. We seem to have the tackle position solved for a good while.
Yup. I've been saying the same forever. Especially at C
Schoen and Daboll need to see Jones throw 50 times for 400 yards bs Philly to evaluate him. They have the all-22. They know what Jones should be seeing on EVERY play. They will know what they have in him at seasons end.
The only thing that makes sense is that they are bringing him back. I don’t think that is the case (a decision that is) but if they are moving on why not go with Taylor and see what you have or say fuck it and let jones play yolo ball. A cpl bad games and most of the fan base will have no problem moving on. If you let jones blow the playoff run then it makes it easy to move on. Instead he is undermining himself with half assed play calls and fearful game mgmt
And still think he’s better than Tyrod. It’s not a binary situation.
They’re still trying to make the playoffs, so if they don’t trust him to let it rip they aren’t going to just do that to evaluate him and risk the playoffs.
And still think he’s better than Tyrod. It’s not a binary situation.
They’re still trying to make the playoffs, so if they don’t trust him to let it rip they aren’t going to just do that to evaluate him and risk the playoffs.
I think they ended up in a position they didn't necessarily expect (not that they'll ever admit that), and BD is now trying to hold on to that playoff position and has gone super conservative.
(and I said it back in September)... if the Giants are moving on from Saquon, Schoen screwed up by not trading him before the deadline when he was on fire.
That's easy for me to say however. If Saquon was traded by the deadline, and then the team went on its current downswing, the fan base would have blamed Schoen for wasting a playoff run.
Yup, guarantee if the Giants had been 1-3-1 in their last 5 at the trade deadline, Schoen would've blown it up.
I think they ended up in a position they didn't necessarily expect (not that they'll ever admit that), and BD is now trying to hold on to that playoff position and has gone super conservative.
I concur.
When you actually have games that mean something, that collar gets a little tighter lol
Hoping that BD realizes he's still playing with house money and starts taking chances more.
Probably felt a bit burned by the Dallas call, hence punting versus WSH.
This! I put this on Daboll, not Jones. A coaching mistake.
He's made a few lately.
I don't mind a first time HC making mistakes. What is important is acknowledging and growing. I don't think there is anything suggesting he won't but time will tell.
Jones completes over 80% no INTs, leading rusher, in the playoff picture with a sub-par offense - yet the coaches may not trust him and half the fans want a new QB. Very unusual situation.
+1 I thought Jones played quite well. If he had the receivers Washington has, and Washington had ours, Giants win that game.
I think they ended up in a position they didn't necessarily expect (not that they'll ever admit that), and BD is now trying to hold on to that playoff position and has gone super conservative.
I concur.
When you actually have games that mean something, that collar gets a little tighter lol
Hoping that BD realizes he's still playing with house money and starts taking chances more.
Probably felt a bit burned by the Dallas call, hence punting versus WSH.
This is the part you can't really prepare for until you've experienced it.
I also think he and Kafka have just about exhausted their bag of tricks. This time of year it's hard to fool anyone. Your guys have to go out and beat the man in front of them. When it comes to trusting his guys it's kind of a moot point. He has no choice but to trust them.
I left the stadium muttering that Daboll had a very bad game
Jones and Barkley conversations and go another route.
Boy was our interior OL bad and I give Sy credit, if you've been reading his reviews he's been pounding the drum for a top notch guard for years. We brought a lot of bodies in at the interior positions, but its time to go and get a top tier guy or two. We seem to have the tackle position solved for a good while.
They were awful. Between IOL and TEs we had free rushers every other play. It was maddening.
You can compliment the value a QB gives you much if there’s more money to spend. A QB that gives you 80% of Jones year 1 and maybe at most gives you 110% of Jones by year 4 is much more tolerable at the price tag that he comes with.
If Jones gives you 65% of what you’d expect of franchise QB and rookie gives you 60%, it’s much easier to fill that 40% void with better talent with an extra $20 million to spend, than the 35% void with Jones on a contract that costs $20-30 million AAV.
The market is the market. He's a journeyman qb. The journeyman qb's are getting between 3 and 9 million on short term deal. Mariota is getting 9 million on a 2 year deal. Dalton is getting 3. Smith got 3.5 and Brisett got 4.6. Tyrod got 5.5 for 2 years. Heincke is getting about 2.5. All these guys (except Mariota and Taylor) are free agents after this season, and no doubt more will be released.
There is Jones' market assuming they want him back which I don't think they do. But, if he is willing to play for that kind of money, fine sign him, and then bring in the competition. I think they would just as soon cut ties to him and wouldn't be surprised to see Taylor go too. These guys are replaceable.
You can compliment the value a QB gives you much if there’s more money to spend. A QB that gives you 80% of Jones year 1 and maybe at most gives you 110% of Jones by year 4 is much more tolerable at the price tag that he comes with.
If Jones gives you 65% of what you’d expect of franchise QB and rookie gives you 60%, it’s much easier to fill that 40% void with better talent with an extra $20 million to spend, than the 35% void with Jones on a contract that costs $20-30 million AAV.
The market is the market. He's a journeyman qb. The journeyman qb's are getting between 3 and 9 million on short term deal. Mariota is getting 9 million on a 2 year deal. Dalton is getting 3. Smith got 3.5 and Brisett got 4.6. Tyrod got 5.5 for 2 years. Heincke is getting about 2.5. All these guys (except Mariota and Taylor) are free agents after this season, and no doubt more will be released.
There is Jones' market assuming they want him back which I don't think they do. But, if he is willing to play for that kind of money, fine sign him, and then bring in the competition. I think they would just as soon cut ties to him and wouldn't be surprised to see Taylor go too. These guys are replaceable.
IF they can keep Jones on a one year deal along those lines I would bet every dollar I own he's here next season as the true bridge QB.
Whether Jones can get more on the open market remains to be seen. If he can't, he's back on a cheap deal like the ones you alluded to and there'[s nothing wrong with that. Keep the QB pipeline open and deploy a halfway decent option until he's found.
Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Annapolis Mike -- there were many, many times when Eli strapped the team on his back and led the way to a win, and when I as a watcher believed he could do it
So far - this year -- there has been more than enough evidence, that under pressure Jones is as much likely to be part of a whiffed play as not. There is something very awkward about him.
OK, let's compare Jones to a 2x Super Bowl MVP and future HOFer when most fans were ready to run him out of town before he got Plax.
I am not even a Jones apologist but this place is off their rocker.
If they don't trust Jones and they won't go to Taylor, then I am rethinking Daboll and his staff.
Easy to win with healthy bodies.
You have a running back making business decisions. Wideouts that can't catch. interior linemen that can't block. play callers going away from what was working and calls predictable plays over and over again.
The QB outrushes the star Running Back..
80% completion pct and the guy with the 2nd most drops in the league can't catch a ball that hits him in the hands.
dude has nothing at wr, IOL getting abused and a all star RB who doesnt seem to be playing like it (of course with no OIL its not easy)
Not a huge jones fan but i would give him a 2 yr deal and ride with him
there is much worse out there
I dont understand even the suggestion of questioning Daboll on this
Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Annapolis Mike -- there were many, many times when Eli strapped the team on his back and led the way to a win, and when I as a watcher believed he could do it
So far - this year -- there has been more than enough evidence, that under pressure Jones is as much likely to be part of a whiffed play as not. There is something very awkward about him.
Awkward? Eli is the definition of awkward ;-) Again...Eli was magical at times. But the Giants were 118-118 with him under center. I don't want to turn this into a thread that bashes one of the best QB's in NYG history. But Eli was profoundly average much of the time. And the Giants under Eli won playoff games in two seasons in his career. (good seasons)
Profoundly average because of inferior talent. Look at the last 5 years and how the record went south during that time frame. I mean if you want to start going that route have you heard of Fran Tarkenton? HOF quarterback but he had a record of 33-36 during his stay in NY. I am sure the fact that the Vikings had a lot better talent had no factor in him having a winning record overall lifetime!
But replacing him with a different QB would almost certainly have not resulted in two championships. I do not think Roethlisberger would have survived NY and I do not think Rivers would have been the same type of player in the postseason.
And still think he’s better than Tyrod. It’s not a binary situation.
They’re still trying to make the playoffs, so if they don’t trust him to let it rip they aren’t going to just do that to evaluate him and risk the playoffs.
I think they ended up in a position they didn't necessarily expect (not that they'll ever admit that), and BD is now trying to hold on to that playoff position and has gone super conservative.
+1.
Oh so I see, the coaches look at our interior o line getting the snot
kicked out of them, receivers who are terrible and decide that the problem is Jones.
what is the coach supposed to do? Call a drop back pass and get the qb killed or sacked?
for 10 years the o line has stunk and yet some here want to debate whether to keep Jones or Barkley. Honestly if they don't fix the o line they might as well let Jones and Barkley walk because neither will ever be effective behind this crap line.
I don’t care how it s spun, no one knows if they believe in Jones or not, it s easy to spin any and all actions to support which ever narrative you want
I mean we couldn’t even agree if he played well on Sunday. I felt he did, evidently Sy did as well.
If the Giants move on from Jones it will be obvious they do not believe in him. Long time supporters like me will have to admit we were wrong.
But I have a feeling if the Giants resign him, and fans like me point to that as evidence they did after all believe in him, there will be much push back on this board.
Quote:
JV squad at WR.
Interior line a mess
TE having a bad game
All quotes from the review
Yet when the 4th down play happened- Coach doesn’t trust DJ?
Are ya kidding me? Maybe, just maybe, he doesn’t trust all the other crap around him?
Just a thought
***understand is this
Maybe he doesn’t trust the line to hold up? Would you?
Or Slayton and the rest of the JV squad to actually hold on to the ball or get open. Would you?
Or SB to get 3 tough yards? Would you?
Or anybody on the offense to make a darn play other than the QB? Would you?
Do we even have anything remotely resembling a decent slot receiver now?
We need to find out what we have in Jones in these "game on the line" situations. He can't claim to know what DJ will do until he sees him in actual game situations. We had a chance to find out and he punted. And to make matters worse, he didn't have his team prepared to run a clean play on the pivotal 3rd and 2 before that.
There was no harm in going for the win there. It's really frustrating he pussied out, and I agree it sets the opposite tone he claims he wanted. It's hard to reverse those perceptions too.
A loss hurts us WAY more than a win helps us so I was ok (frustrated, but ok) with the punt.
DJ has repeatedly been clutch in the 4th with the game the line, accounting for nearly every win we have.
I really hope Julian Love gets signed. I wonder what money is he going to command. Top 10 safety money? I think he's earned that.
Definitely top 10 safety money
He might be looking for top 5 money. Looking at safeties his age who have signed long term deals he might be getting Marcus Williams type money: https://overthecap.com/player/marcus-williams/5628 safety contracts - ( New Window )
My mind is made up on Daniel Jones from watching him,
particularly as others have noted, when the game is on the line. Now, some other stats:
Tua has twice as many 20+yd completions on fewer passes thrown. Mariota, Tannehill and Davis Mills all have 30 or more, all on fewer completions.
Closer to Jones is the mighty Andy Dalton of the lowly Saints. Same number of 20+, almost identical number of 40+, Dalton has thrown 15tds to Jones's 11 on fewer throws. My biggest criticism of Jones remains as it always has been: he doesn't throw enough touchdowns. Using my eyes, I don't believe it all lies with the receiver corps. He is a very, very ordinary quarterback who tries hard. Can't question his character, but the skill and vision is not there. Doesn't read the game well enough or react quick enough. We have to move on from him.
I am convinced Schoen and Daboll feel the same way.
After all those games in Buffalo with Josh Allen, how could they not?
Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Annapolis Mike -- there were many, many times when Eli strapped the team on his back and led the way to a win, and when I as a watcher believed he could do it
So far - this year -- there has been more than enough evidence, that under pressure Jones is as much likely to be part of a whiffed play as not. There is something very awkward about him.
OK, let's compare Jones to a 2x Super Bowl MVP and future HOFer when most fans were ready to run him out of town before he got Plax.
I am not even a Jones apologist but this place is off their rocker.
If they don't trust Jones and they won't go to Taylor, then I am rethinking Daboll and his staff.
Easy to win with healthy bodies.
You have a running back making business decisions. Wideouts that can't catch. interior linemen that can't block. play callers going away from what was working and calls predictable plays over and over again.
The QB outrushes the star Running Back..
80% completion pct and the guy with the 2nd most drops in the league can't catch a ball that hits him in the hands.
Yet its the QB's fault.
unbelievable.
I agree. Jones may not be worth keeping but he far from being the problem
particularly as others have noted, when the game is on the line. Now, some other stats:
Tua has twice as many 20+yd completions on fewer passes thrown. Mariota, Tannehill and Davis Mills all have 30 or more, all on fewer completions.
Closer to Jones is the mighty Andy Dalton of the lowly Saints. Same number of 20+, almost identical number of 40+, Dalton has thrown 15tds to Jones's 11 on fewer throws. My biggest criticism of Jones remains as it always has been: he doesn't throw enough touchdowns. Using my eyes, I don't believe it all lies with the receiver corps. He is a very, very ordinary quarterback who tries hard. Can't question his character, but the skill and vision is not there. Doesn't read the game well enough or react quick enough. We have to move on from him.
I am convinced Schoen and Daboll feel the same way.
After all those games in Buffalo with Josh Allen, how could they not?
You cannot compare Jones' numbers to others with actual WRs. He has one semi-legit deep threat and a hodgepodge of low level free agents and castoffs. He lost his one legit TE to a fractured eye socket for 4 weeks. Sy calls this group the JV.
IMHO, he is not the answer at QB, but to throw numbers out there about deep plays is stretching reality.
think Daboll is more conservative now because of the injuries and the fact that we have a winning record and are in playoff position. None of that was true in week one.
Sometimes the truth is right in front of our eyes. Thank you.
RE: My mind is made up on Daniel Jones from watching him,
particularly as others have noted, when the game is on the line. Now, some other stats:
Tua has twice as many 20+yd completions on fewer passes thrown. Mariota, Tannehill and Davis Mills all have 30 or more, all on fewer completions.
Closer to Jones is the mighty Andy Dalton of the lowly Saints. Same number of 20+, almost identical number of 40+, Dalton has thrown 15tds to Jones's 11 on fewer throws. My biggest criticism of Jones remains as it always has been: he doesn't throw enough touchdowns. Using my eyes, I don't believe it all lies with the receiver corps. He is a very, very ordinary quarterback who tries hard. Can't question his character, but the skill and vision is not there. Doesn't read the game well enough or react quick enough. We have to move on from him.
I am convinced Schoen and Daboll feel the same way.
After all those games in Buffalo with Josh Allen, how could they not?
Tua has Waddle and Hill. Slayton would be 3rd or 4th on their depth chart. Not a far comparison. The others are fair comparisons though and its not good for Daniel Jones and this offense.
a solid read on Schoen/Daboll as to their views of Jones. I am not as certain as Sy seems. At times, I think they are willing to move on. At other times, I think they realize the limitations of the supporting cast and the progress he has made despite it.
I guess what I'm saying is I will not be shocked if they keep Jones or let him walk.
I also wonder how the 2023 QB class impacts all of this. On the surface, the class does not appear to be as strong as once anticipated.
This is spot on -- and is a very telling analysis. Daboll and Shoen have shown a propensity to say all the right things, and always state things as positively as they can about current players. They did that about Kadarius and then shot him out into the nether region.
I think that this is clearly what it appears to be. They are managing a tough situation, that they have already made the best of. If they need to keep Jones they don't want to have any words out there that will come back and bite them. But they have shown they can cut bait pretty quickly when the opportunity arises.
In my opinion there is no way Jones is the long term answer and they know it. When the right opportunity comes they will go for it. It will be sudden, swift, and decisive.
Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I wonder how much you trusted Eli up through Week 16 of the 2007 in that same scenario?
I wonder how Eli would have performed, during his 4th season, with this receiving corps and interior Oline?
I watched this same Corner Forum demand that TC be fired and Eli cut for most of that season. He was known as a turnover machine, right up until they went to Tampa that post-season....even with a near All-Star offensive roster.
Oh, btw I consider Eli to be the best Giants QB I have seen in my 50+ years watching the team....but be fair, he would have been buried by year 4 if this was his supporting cast.
Really not sure what’s going on with Barkley......
He realizes that he’s never to to the playoffs or have a winning record with the Giants. You’d think he’d be running very hard, however his running appears to be very soft lately. Could he still have an injury affecting him? The Giants need him to get his yards if they want any chance at the post-season.
RE: Really not sure what’s going on with Barkley......
He realizes that he’s never to to the playoffs or have a winning record with the Giants. You’d think he’d be running very hard, however his running appears to be very soft lately. Could he still have an injury affecting him? The Giants need him to get his yards if they want any chance at the post-season.
I don't believe it's that he's "not running hard". It's that this is who he has been. He can make the occasional physical play like sy indicated but that's not his game
When he was at his best this year, he was more aggressive, but he still wasn't doing that. It's just that the blocking was better, the threat of the RPO with Jones was backing teams off, and the rest of the league was still learning the Giants tendencies. He did get hurt, and maybe that's made him a little more tentative.
This! I put this on Daboll, not Jones. A coaching mistake.
He's made a few lately.
I don't mind a first time HC making mistakes. What is important is acknowledging and growing. I don't think there is anything suggesting he won't but time will tell.
Yea, let's defend a QB that is either a turnover machine, or puts up the production of a NFL backup
QB (there'sno in between), and throw the HC/OC that got that QB to 6-1, under the bus.
Now you're thinking!
They see him in practice, they see him in games, they see his film. They know what he's capable, and incapable, of. I'd bet they know more than know-nothing posters on the interwebs?
First, thank you for all the work you put into these and the scouting content you provide.
I really think you should include an introduction paragraph or two for the game. You always find interesting historical facts that make it worth reading. Simply starting an article with ‘QUARTERBACK’ is a bit jarring (at least to me).
If the game summary section isn’t coming back, could it be replaced by adding an additional link to Eric’s post-game article to the Gameday Preview/Review section?
That way there’s still a linear view of what happened in each game available for us to reference.
Yea, let's defend a QB that is either a turnover machine, or puts up the production of a NFL backup QB (there's no in between), and throw the HC/OC that got that QB to 6-1, under the bus.
Now you're thinking!
They see him in practice, they see him in games, they see his film. They know what he's capable, and incapable, of. I'd bet they know more than know-nothing posters on the interwebs?
This is not a bad post except, Jones has not been a turn over machine for a couple years. He has 7 total this year. If you make a good post, do not dilute it with opinion that is worthless. Remember that 6 of Jones' INTs last year were because Engram allowed the ball to bounce off his hands to a DB.
You may need to sign Jones and then draft someone in the second or third rounds to develop and take his place.
I'm in total agreement with you. I am regularly posting on here that Schoen's biggest challenge is to find a quarterback. The salary cap, the offensive line, wide receivers - all those will get sorted over the next couple of seasons. But quarterback? It's damn tricky. Supposedly there are some good quarterbacks coming through in the next two drafts, but I don't know how we get in a position to draft one without damaging our ability to strengthen elsewhere.
Always always. That’s broad brushing to promote biases.
Lamar took a step with Andrews.
Tua took a step with Hill.
Hurts took a step with Brown.
Allen took a step with Diggs.
Eli took a step with Plax.
Brady took a step with Moss.
Could go on. Each of these players elevated their game and ranking amongst their peers when they were paired with a legitimate #1.
If Jones is top 15-20 now, and IMO he is with a bottom third skill group/front, he’ll improve commensurate to the improvement of his skill group and front.
Mara stated they hadn’t done enough to help him, in fact, they hurt his growth. Having him try to “air it out” with this skill group and front would be more of the same.
Always always. That’s broad brushing to promote biases.
Lamar took a step with Andrews.
Tua took a step with Hill.
Hurts took a step with Brown.
Allen took a step with Diggs.
Eli took a step with Plax.
Brady took a step with Moss.
Could go on. Each of these players elevated their game and ranking amongst their peers when they were paired with a legitimate #1.
If Jones is top 15-20 now, and IMO he is with a bottom third skill group/front, he’ll improve commensurate to the improvement of his skill group and front.
Mara stated they hadn’t done enough to help him, in fact, they hurt his growth. Having him try to “air it out” with this skill group and front would be more of the same.
Brady was hurt the next year and the final year with Moss was pretty in line with his career numbers.
Yes, Allen elevated his game when they got Diggs but he also has a better skill set. Tua’s skillset as a deep passer is better. Hurts and Jones are probably the same as throwers, but Hurts is very good at manipulating the pocket, something Jones hadn’t shown in his skillset.
It’s not really Apple to apples comparisons. You’re working off the assumption that Jones will take a similar jump but there’s nothing that suggests that’s a certainty.
They got Brown because Hurts demonstrated he was the real deal the year before. Brown didn't make Hurts. Tua demonstrated between years 1 and 2 that he was a precision passer and his stats were bettern from year 1 to year 2.
Meanwhile Jones faceplanted between years 1 and 2 and is basically generating the same stats in year 4 that he did in years 2 and 3.
Frankly, this argument is ridiculous. Putting a clown on a stage with Shakespearean actors doesn't make the clown a Shakespearean actor. You get the Shakespearean actors when the clown displays a talent for acting.
RE: and Hurts took a big leap between years 1 and 2
They got Brown because Hurts demonstrated he was the real deal the year before. Brown didn't make Hurts. Tua demonstrated between years 1 and 2 that he was a precision passer and his stats were bettern from year 1 to year 2.
Meanwhile Jones faceplanted between years 1 and 2 and is basically generating the same stats in year 4 that he did in years 2 and 3.
Frankly, this argument is ridiculous. Putting a clown on a stage with Shakespearean actors doesn't make the clown a Shakespearean actor. You get the Shakespearean actors when the clown displays a talent for acting.
And again, how do you know, based on the talent the Eagles have vs. The Giants overall? That team is freaking loaded. Put Jones on that Eagles squad and they have a similar record to what they have now. In my opinion.
Jones doesn’t do some of the things Hurts does that makes that offense move.
If Hurts and Jones are interchangeable, why is Brown having a better year than he had with Tannehill?
The answer is in my post. That whole Eagles team is loaded. It makes a difference to every actual good player on the team when they play with peers who are that good. It's not just the QB. And if Sirianni is worth his salt, he tailors his play calling and overall offense to take advantage of whatever QB he has strengths and weaknesses. Which would be both more and less pronounced based on the skill level of the rest of the offense.
But it’s also not just the WR. Hurts has been an upgrade over Tannehill for Brown. It’s not a binary situation.
And again, that whole team is stacked. There are a LOT of pieces for defenses playing the Eagles to worry about. They have 3 WR that would become our #1 by a large margin. They have a very good OL. They have very good RBs. All made better by the fact that they are all good. I mean who is the weak point on that offense?
This regime has shown from the start how they feel about Jones, whether we like it or not. Whether we think he can be the future or needs to be gone.
It’s clear what they think. It’s not just the lack of weapons around him. They just don’t trust him and will likely be looking for a QB they pick to build around.
If they don't trust Jones, then put Taylor in.
Something seems off here. It's like they don't want to make the playoffs and this whole early season winning was something that derailed their plans.
All pre season long they told Jones don't worry about making mistakes, and play aggressive.
Now it looks like they are coaching not to win ala Joe Judge.
Kudos.
Play to win the damn game
coached scared.
but why is not going for it on 4th and 3 an indictment of the qb instead of an indictment on the jv receivers? or the offense generally given that richie james couldn't get out of his own way in a similarly crucial spot?
also thought the decision there showed a lack of confidence in the defense to prevent the skins from getting 20 yards should the offense fail to convert.
not sure it's entirely fair to put that decision all on a lack of faith in the qb...
Kudos.
That was a great call by Wink knowing they were going to Terry.
I will respectfully disagree with going for it there. 1 yard? Ok. 3? I thought Daboll made the right call.
That said, I had a huge issue with getting cute on a 3rd and 2 call there. Also, where is Breida? He should be seeing more snaps.
The clear take away by Dabs' decisions in the game, starting with the end of the 2nd quarter, are that the coaches have no confidence in Jones.
Jones-Barkley combo appears not to be the answer.
They need to spend the money to sign Love, Lawrence, and others.
Eh...prob 20-25 yards
and if you get it (it is freakin 3 yards) you are in the drivers seat. Agree or disagree does not matter...this is coming from a HC that said he was going to play aggressive. The offense was finally clicking. They had to get 3 yards. They got 3+ 6 out of 7 plays and the one play they didn't was a miscommunication in the backfield.
They had the win right there and he chose not to pursue it.
I don’t get the “don’t trust Jones” narrative in this one. 16/16, then 8/8. I mean what more could he do? I don’t think they trust the whole O. And the Barkley James keystone kop play didn’t help, coming right before that key first. With the playoffs on the line I think Dabes and Kafka are getting tight and more not to lose.
All of that said, with a mess of a roster and injuries everywhere, we have 2 years worth of wins already based on the typical past decade’s performance. I say it’s house money, Dabes. Let it rip!
It's also a pretty damning assessment of Jones and Barkley.
Thanks for review/new format.
The clear take away by Dabs' decisions in the game, starting with the end of the 2nd quarter, are that the coaches have no confidence in Jones.
Jones-Barkley combo appears not to be the answer.
Eh. Watch the Twitter video of Evan Neal’s pass protection for the entire game. While he’s the focus, you get to see just how putrid the pass protection was, especially on the interior. I thought that clearly affected how the game was called. On the Giants first score of the game (FG), they didn’t even attempt to get the first down on a 3rd & 5 in WASH territory.
But to be fair to your point, I can’t explain what the coaching staff is doing sometimes. I still have no clue what they were doing at the end of the Cowboys game on Thanksgiving. It’s even more bizarre when you consider that they were aggressive at the end of the first half. While the focus for some is the QB, I’m not certain that they trust anyone.
I think this is the big issue. The playoffs are right there and I think Daboll has gotten soft in the face of it.
100% this. A win was not so much better than a tie. A loss was significantly worse, for playoff positioning. That's what shaped the strategy. I bet that they will not be so conservative the next time against Washington, when they need the win.
Daboll relies heavily on his analytics guys for game decisions I think. That's what that was. He even hinted at it in the postgame press conference:
Q: Back to the fourth-and-3, you made that statement in the first game when you went for two. You were aggressive. Why not today?
A: Well, I think it's later in the season...
Quote:
You don't make it and WFT is like 15 yards away from a GW FG.
Eh...prob 20-25 yards
and if you get it (it is freakin 3 yards) you are in the drivers seat. Agree or disagree does not matter...this is coming from a HC that said he was going to play aggressive. The offense was finally clicking. They had to get 3 yards. They got 3+ 6 out of 7 plays and the one play they didn't was a miscommunication in the backfield.
They had the win right there and he chose not to pursue it.
I see where you are coming from with respect to the proclamations of being an aggressive team, but the Giants got exactly what they wanted, a 3 and out with time left on the clock and the ball in good field position. If not for some serious officiating errors, and some poor clock management by Daboll himself not immediately calling a timeout after the Thibodeaux sack (correct me if I’m wrong but he let at least 8 seconds tick off after that sack), the Giants had more than adequate time to get into realistic FG range. He ensured the outcome was T or W, rather than risking the L, which would have been absolutely crushing. I’m OK with his decision to punt on 4th and 3, but I don’t think it’s clear cut “right” or “wrong” either way.
I have been a big fan of Daboll but that move doesn’t sit well with me
+1
Much appreciate all your insights. Lots and lots of information to ponder. Found these remarks you made about Daniel Jones particularly interesting:
"The biggest question surrounding him and his long-term outlook revolve around can he shoulder the entire offense in key moments? Can he do it? NYG could have used this game to help answer that question and they cowardly walked in the other direction."
"After watching the All-22, Jones played a good game, even keeping the first quarter fumble in mind."
"The lack of confidence Daboll showed on the 4th-and-3 was unwarranted from my perspective and may be more telling than some want to think. They do not believe in him."
You may have hit the nail on the head about how Daboll feels about Daniel Jones. If true, seems like one of two future paths for Daniel Jones:
(1) Giants sign him on a short-term deal as a bridge and/or back-up to somebody else; or,
(2) Daniel Jones will be playing for some other team in 2023.
I don't get it. I really don't.
Interesting take on the 4th and 3. I was very upset at first and then I thought about our D which had been on the field already for so many plays. If they failed I was not very confident the D could keep them out of FG range so I finished lukewarm on the decision to punt. There was enough time where both the run and pass were still in play.
I don't get it. I really don't.
At the end of regulation when they had a chance to win, Jones threw three passes:
1. The first, he didn't lead Slayton towards the sideline. Should've been caught, but he gave the safety a chance to make a play on the ball.
2. The second, he threw an uncatchable ball and negated a possible pass interference call.
3. The third was almost picked off when he tried to squeeze it into tight coverage.
Jones' detractors protest too much I think, but Jones did not seize the win when given the chance. And it shows.
WAS had the ball on the NYG 43 with a FG to win it and the defense stopped. If the Giants don’t convert there, there is a great chance WAS wins and Daboll gets destroyed. Tie was a better outcome than a loss.
+100
I don't get it. I really don't.
What's 'near flawless'? He had three possessions for a game winning drive and made nothing of it. The Slayton drop was 1 down out of 4.
I agree...enjoying the new format, thank you!
I don't get it. I really don't.
He was doing his best Simms SB impression with a David Sills led passing attack.
Barkley was a thorn in the Giants' side. First time I really thought(or allowed myself to see) he was not running hard. They really need to use Brightwell as the bulldog on short yardage - perhaps a two back set. Barkley's pass receiving is just poor this year. I was salivating at getting him into the passing game when the season started. It almost feels like Kafka is in a rut, now.
I thought the entire 2nd half, Kafka called a weak game. I was pissed enough to turn it off at 7:48 left in the 4th.
FWIW, the punt on 4th and 3 was probably the right call. We don't like it, but ...
I guess what I'm saying is I will not be shocked if they keep Jones or let him walk.
I also wonder how the 2023 QB class impacts all of this. On the surface, the class does not appear to be as strong as once anticipated.
This is not because this week there is a lot of focus on Dabol's possible lack of aggressiveness. There was Kafka's play calling and the ongoing risk reward of when Wink needs to blitz or pull back.
Look at Brady last night....3 points until 5 minutes left and then two masterful drives to beat the Saints with 2 Seconds Left!
That is what I am talking about!
That is the QB I want....of course, I don't want the same guy who only scored 3 points up to those last five minutes! LOL
I guess what I'm saying is I will not be shocked if they keep Jones or let him walk.
I also wonder how the 2023 QB class impacts all of this. On the surface, the class does not appear to be as strong as once anticipated.
They can definitely putz this up. No FA out there better than Jones and we got at best a middling 1st round draft pick. Yeah was excited about the QB class preseasons but I definitely feel cock blocked by the class now.
Look at Brady last night....3 points until 5 minutes left and then two masterful drives to beat the Saints with 2 Seconds Left!
That is what I am talking about!
That is the QB I want....of course, I don't want the same guy who only scored 3 points up to those last five minutes! LOL
So you want a young Tom Brady? OK.
I agree with this- I'd much rather have sacrificed some win expectancy to give Jones a chance to sink/swim in a real NFL offense.
But we have to realize that this is the offense they designed for him. It's not like they came in from BUF and KC with this playback. They built it early based on what they saw. And it worked in terms of winning games. It's probably not easy to make big changes mid season.
I guess what I'm saying is I will not be shocked if they keep Jones or let him walk.
I also wonder how the 2023 QB class impacts all of this. On the surface, the class does not appear to be as strong as once anticipated.
Eric, IMV, Jones is still an enigma. Sometimes he looks lost and uncommitted. Other times he looks just fine. His running for a QB is top notch. He is decisive on when to leave the pocket and most times makes positive plays
I have come to the belief it is time to move on. He just does not seem to make the quick, decisive throws that virtually every NFL QB makes. Some say he processes slowly. I am not convinced of that. He just seems reluctant on occasion to let it go - perhaps it is just lack of confidence in himself(and perhaps that is the processing others talk about).
It seems Sy is just as "non-committal"(for lack of a better word) on Jones. He has given Jones several positive writeups while noting the "JV" WR corps. A few times he mentioned that Jones did about all he could do with what he has around him. Perhaps it is professional courtesy of not disparaging a player in public that keeps him from saying more.
If Daboll and Schoen decide to bring him back, I will be surprised. I also believe that Barkley may be losing his re-signing with the Giants. He has come up small in the past month as he seems uncommitted to make the hard runs that pickup 1st downs.
And you all were apparently not also paying attention to the current defensive formula- stop Barkley and make the passing game beat you. The other team gets paid too, and they are telling you by the defense they play what they are most worried about.
Look at Brady last night....3 points until 5 minutes left and then two masterful drives to beat the Saints with 2 Seconds Left!
That is what I am talking about!
That is the QB I want....of course, I don't want the same guy who only scored 3 points up to those last five minutes! LOL
Brady got 17 points. We already have that.
I agree. And punting the ball, pinning Wash deep, and relying on the D to get a stop so you can get the ball back with a chance to kick the game winning field goal isn't a bad plan at all. It's much less risky than going for it on 4th and 3 near mid-field and, in fact, it almost worked.
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The lack of confidence Daboll showed on the 4th-and-3 was unwarranted from my perspective and may be more telling than some want to think. They do not believe in him. How many head coaches who are confident in their quarterback make that decision? Almost NONE.
While I agree it is time to move on, you also left the preceding sentences out of the section you quoted from Sy -
This. +1
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Calling anyone who says similar a hater or a moron now right?
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The lack of confidence Daboll showed on the 4th-and-3 was unwarranted from my perspective and may be more telling than some want to think. They do not believe in him. How many head coaches who are confident in their quarterback make that decision? Almost NONE.
While I agree it is time to move on, you also left the preceding sentences out of the section you quoted from Sy -
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The quick decisions and play-making ability he created with his legs. After watching the All-22, Jones played a good game, even keeping the first quarter fumble in mind.
Not sure how that’s relevant. Never said he had a bad game. But anyone who even remotely suggested they don’t fully trust him has been shot down as a moron on here, especially by a certain plump fellow.
Any commentary on Jones' ability to process the read defender in the option game?
I don't know. This was a winnable game and a great situation to answer some serious questions, and it feels like it just added more questions. It's going to be much harder to judge anything against a better quality of opponent like that.
If the Eagles game goes poorly, and it has every reason to the way the Giants are trending, it's going to be really easy to write it off as just getting handled by one of the best teams in the league that way outclasses NYG.
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was analytics driven. Not about the chances of picking it up but the chances of making the playoffs after a tie.
100% this. A win was not so much better than a tie. A loss was significantly worse, for playoff positioning. That's what shaped the strategy. I bet that they will not be so conservative the next time against Washington, when they need the win.
Daboll relies heavily on his analytics guys for game decisions I think. That's what that was. He even hinted at it in the postgame press conference:
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Q: Back to the fourth-and-3, you made that statement in the first game when you went for two. You were aggressive. Why not today?
A: Well, I think it's later in the season...
This too. +1
And you all were apparently not also paying attention to the current defensive formula- stop Barkley and make the passing game beat you. The other team gets paid too, and they are telling you by the defense they play what they are most worried about.
I know your position on Jones and I'm not going to argue one way or the other at this point.
But the nitpicking about individual throws has gotten a bit ridiculous. If Giants fans expect a cyborg to play QB for the Giants, it's not happening. Even the best QBs miss throws.
Personally, I find the ongoing thread on the Slayton drop very enlightening. The pretzel twisting by some on that thread is amazing.
Agree Sy that Barkley makes too many "business decisions"
Special talent, but pretty maddening as a runner.
And for all the avoiding contact, he still gets hurt. So it's not serving a purpose.
Daboll will need to learn from this.
Not sure how that’s relevant. Never said he had a bad game. But anyone who even remotely suggested they don’t fully trust him has been shot down as a moron on here, especially by a certain plump fellow.
Maybe the don't trust him, or the Oline or the RBs or the WRs or all of the above.
I do think it is time to move on, but he was easily the best player on offense Sunday.
I guess what I'm saying is I will not be shocked if they keep Jones or let him walk.
I also wonder how the 2023 QB class impacts all of this. On the surface, the class does not appear to be as strong as once anticipated.
This is spot on -- and is a very telling analysis. Daboll and Shoen have shown a propensity to say all the right things, and always state things as positively as they can about current players. They did that about Kadarius and then shot him out into the nether region.
I think that this is clearly what it appears to be. They are managing a tough situation, that they have already made the best of. If they need to keep Jones they don't want to have any words out there that will come back and bite them. But they have shown they can cut bait pretty quickly when the opportunity arises.
In my opinion there is no way Jones is the long term answer and they know it. When the right opportunity comes they will go for it. It will be sudden, swift, and decisive.
Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
This too +1
I love this kid….big, great hands, solid body….doesn’t look like he would be injured a lot like some of our other smaller fragile WRs (and that included Toney)
I guess what I'm saying is I will not be shocked if they keep Jones or let him walk.
I also wonder how the 2023 QB class impacts all of this. On the surface, the class does not appear to be as strong as once anticipated.
I feel exactly the same way. They didn't pick up Jones's fifth year option, but that was expected. They were both new, and needed to see him for themselves. And now he's dealing with a porous interior OL and the worst WRs in the league. His only deep threat likely would have been cut if he had not agreed to a pay cut. But the counter argument that he doesn't process quickly enough is also valid.
I don't think they will sign him to a long-term contract this offseason, but I could see a two year deal or even the FT. I agree that other options for QB will at least to some extent affect their decision and any offer.
Jones is the most polarizing player in the history of BBI IMO. And yet after four and a half years, I still don't know what they should do with him.
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Agree on Hodgins. What do you see his ceiling as? Could he be what McKenzie brings to Buffalo as a #3?
This too +1
I love this kid….big, great hands, solid body….doesn’t look like he would be injured a lot like some of our other smaller fragile WRs (and that included Toney)
That route he ran for the TD was so crisp it should be on tapes teaching kids how to play WR. Reminded me how Odell would run his short area routes.
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but I was telling my pals that a Brady/Rodgers/Mahomes/Allen put the team on their back at the end of a close or tied game and make the plays!
Look at Brady last night....3 points until 5 minutes left and then two masterful drives to beat the Saints with 2 Seconds Left!
That is what I am talking about!
That is the QB I want....of course, I don't want the same guy who only scored 3 points up to those last five minutes! LOL
So you want a young Tom Brady? OK.
Not to mention that 13 of the 21 targets on those final 2 drives were to Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, or Julio Jones.
That's easy for me to say however. If Saquon was traded by the deadline, and then the team went on its current downswing, the fan base would have blamed Schoen for wasting a playoff run.
No it is not that outrageous but neither is it definite. But that is Jones in a nutshell.
That's easy for me to say however. If Saquon was traded by the deadline, and then the team went on its current downswing, the fan base would have blamed Schoen for wasting a playoff run.
Yep, you just answered it. These vacuums aren’t made in a vacuum. Also, at that point they could have lost the locker room considering Saquon *IS* the offense.
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On whether they trust him or not, but them not trusting him is definitely not the outrageous claim some on here make it out to be.
No it is not that outrageous but neither is it definite. But that is Jones in a nutshell.
QB purgatory will drive us all insane.
I don't get it. I really don't.
Flawless if what you care about is completion percentage. It was very much a Chad Pennington performance. Short throws completed for a high percentage with few errors and little production.
I think many were hoping to see a lot more out of Jones. Based on what Sy wrote, the staff does not trust this passing game at all. That is not just about the WRs.
I really think that in critical situations they do not trust the interior OL and the WRs not the QB. I think even Barkley is giving them some pause
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and people still kick the shit out of him.
I don't get it. I really don't.
At the end of regulation when they had a chance to win, Jones threw three passes:
1. The first, he didn't lead Slayton towards the sideline. Should've been caught, but he gave the safety a chance to make a play on the ball.
2. The second, he threw an uncatchable ball and negated a possible pass interference call.
3. The third was almost picked off when he tried to squeeze it into tight coverage.
Jones' detractors protest too much I think, but Jones did not seize the win when given the chance. And it shows.
Your first point is just not true. He DID lead him towards the sidelines which is why he twisted in the air.
Point 2 is also wrong. Slayton ran a poor route that was too close to the sidelines and didn't give DJ any space to make the throw. It was a chronic problem that Manningham had, and Slayton made the same mistake.
Since you apparently watch video of other teams, do you consider Love a good bet to get a pro bowl nod at safety?
If you think the Giants have "JV WRs", wouldn't it make sense for Daboll to play the game more conservatively and be more selective when he chooses to press the accelerator?
I really think that in critical situations they do not trust the interior OLand the WRs not the QB. I think even Barkley is giving them some pause
I thought that was the case at the end of the first half. The play caller can tell the QB to throw the ball out of the end zone if nothing is wide open, but they can’t do anything about horrendous pass protection and risk a sack there.
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What is the point of playing the QB if you don’t believe in him. It would be much easier to find his replacement by losing and getting a better pick
I really think that in critical situations they do not trust the interior OLand the WRs not the QB. I think even Barkley is giving them some pause
I thought that was the case at the end of the first half. The play caller can tell the QB to throw the ball out of the end zone if nothing is wide open, but they can’t do anything about horrendous pass protection and risk a sack there.
They had a timeout and we’re at the 19 though. A sack keeps them in field goal range and they end up with the same result they did running him.
And you all were apparently not also paying attention to the current defensive formula- stop Barkley and make the passing game beat you. The other team gets paid too, and they are telling you by the defense they play what they are most worried about.
Exactly. This is why it occurred to me recently that without Daniel Jones as a RPO/scrambling threat, this entire offense is dead in the water.
No passing game means stuff Barkley and stop the Giants. Can give us the best 5 linemen in the NFL and they aren't going to make ground against 8-9 in the box.
When Jones runs, it helps run blocking for Barkley since less defenders are committed to him. This, in turn, opens up play action and our meager passing game.
When Jones is just a drop back passer, he's ineffectual. What % is him versus the 'receivers' will be infinitely debated.
That call to me was more questionable and more cowardly than not going for it on 4th and 3.
Point 2 is also wrong. Slayton ran a poor route that was too close to the sidelines and didn't give DJ any space to make the throw. It was a chronic problem that Manningham had, and Slayton made the same mistake.
Took Toomer until his 3rd season to learn that and how to shield the DB from the ball.
Those next 2 are the ones I'm wondering if Jones missed seeing an opportunity. DJ clearly came through on the first one, and Slayton dropped it. I can't remember the next two, just that they were passing plays that malfunctioned.
So, the coaches did give at least a limited opportunity to Jones and the receivers.
I'm on the fence regarding DJ, but have no confidence in the receiving group. Not hard to project that onto the coaching staff.
It's easy to say 'Jones has to put the team on his back', but if the receivers drop passes, or can't get open, or the interior of the OL can't do it's job (or get stupid penalties taking you out of FG range), what do you expect Jones to do?
For all the Jones trust comments you must have missed the part where he feels the staff doesn't trust Barkley to do what is needed later in the game. How about the fact that Barkley doesn't run physical a LOT of the time and has one of the lowest yards after contact by backs with 100 carries or more?
The love for Barkley here is just crazy. You do realize his best games have also been when Jones has had really good running games too? I actually feel like it works best when both are running well- the limitations of our offense can be covered by some by creating indecision in defenders..
Barkley over the last 6 games has done things like he did last year (turns his back at contact- losing all power) a LOT. He slows up at the sideline for some reason as if giving up but in a weird awkward way. His vision is also a bit off as he tends to run to congestion, almost avoiding possible clean hits for more yardage to get into a jumbled area where the contact comes from a number of bodies vs power hits or attempts in a more open setting. So basically he is looking for the jumbled mess to sort of ease the hit and takes less yards because of it.
That's easy for me to say however. If Saquon was traded by the deadline, and then the team went on its current downswing, the fan base would have blamed Schoen for wasting a playoff run.
good point. As for the 2nd point, those are the decisions that GMs get paid to make and take the heat for.
Clearly it looked as if James had gotten that first down, so were they somehow confused?
For all the Jones trust comments you must have missed the part where he feels the staff doesn't trust Barkley to do what is needed later in the game. How about the fact that Barkley doesn't run physical a LOT of the time and has one of the lowest yards after contact by backs with 100 carries or more?
The love for Barkley here is just crazy. You do realize his best games have also been when Jones has had really good running games too? I actually feel like it works best when both are running well- the limitations of our offense can be covered by some by creating indecision in defenders..
Barkley over the last 6 games has done things like he did last year (turns his back at contact- losing all power) a LOT. He slows up at the sideline for some reason as if giving up but in a weird awkward way. His vision is also a bit off as he tends to run to congestion, almost avoiding possible clean hits for more yardage to get into a jumbled area where the contact comes from a number of bodies vs power hits or attempts in a more open setting. So basically he is looking for the jumbled mess to sort of ease the hit and takes less yards because of it.
I'm not excusing Barkley -- he hasn't been the same since the 35 carry game
For all the Jones trust comments you must have missed the part where he feels the staff doesn't trust Barkley to do what is needed later in the game. How about the fact that Barkley doesn't run physical a LOT of the time and has one of the lowest yards after contact by backs with 100 carries or more?
The love for Barkley here is just crazy. You do realize his best games have also been when Jones has had really good running games too? I actually feel like it works best when both are running well- the limitations of our offense can be covered by some by creating indecision in defenders..
Barkley over the last 6 games has done things like he did last year (turns his back at contact- losing all power) a LOT. He slows up at the sideline for some reason as if giving up but in a weird awkward way. His vision is also a bit off as he tends to run to congestion, almost avoiding possible clean hits for more yardage to get into a jumbled area where the contact comes from a number of bodies vs power hits or attempts in a more open setting. So basically he is looking for the jumbled mess to sort of ease the hit and takes less yards because of it.
It’s not picking and choosing, it’s talking about certain topics. I don’t think anyone would disagree that Barkley needs to play better. But as for Barkleys best games have come when Jones has had a good running day is simply not true.
Hou: Barkley 152, Jones 24
Ravens: Barkley 88, Jones 6
Tennessee: Barkley 166, Jones 25
The Green Bay, Chicago and Jaguar game you’d be correct. So it’s really 50-50.
1) It is so interesting to see how coaches (in this case, Daboll) seem to get more conservative as their tenure wears on... is it the pressure of trying to win? is it lack of confidence in the players (Jones, WRs, O Line)? or something else. But as others have said, this recent stretch of games do take the shine off a bit with this coaching staff.
2) Since Sy's commentary on Jones seems to be a running debate, let it be known he said DJ played a quality game (no need to repeat his indiv comments here)... and yet, it should also be said that Sy thinks the coaching staff have limited confidence in him. Interesting, for sure and the off season bears close watching.
3) There is no reason to sign Saquon for anything other than an extremely team friendly deal. Spend that $$ on the O Line, LBers, and possibly, if the brass think it is warranted, a new QB
4) I laugh when I read Sy's well thought and professional player reviews and then read a bunch of yahoo's still pushing their agenda after only watching the game half in the bag from their couch... (no reason to name names, you know who are, probably)
the rest of this season should be very interesting... I hope we end the season still confident in this coaching staff.
Interior line a mess
TE having a bad game
All quotes from the review
Yet when the 4th down play happened- Coach doesn’t trust DJ?
Are ya kidding me? Maybe, just maybe, he doesn’t trust all the other crap around him?
Just a thought
Interior line a mess
TE having a bad game
All quotes from the review
Yet when the 4th down play happened- Coach doesn’t trust DJ?
Are ya kidding me? Maybe, just maybe, he doesn’t trust all the other crap around him?
Just a thought
***understand is this
Maybe he doesn’t trust the line to hold up? Would you?
Or Slayton and the rest of the JV squad to actually hold on to the ball or get open. Would you?
Or SB to get 3 tough yards? Would you?
Or anybody on the offense to make a darn play other than the QB? Would you?
Definitely top 10 safety money
You can argue whether he was making great passes but you can't argue that he was executing the plays called.
If Kafka is telling him to run the screen that has been useless all year...all Jones can do is throw the screen complete.
It probably wouldn't look good on his resume going rogue in a contract year.
I came with the same assessment regarding coaching and Jones, and just weapons as well. It’a clear they don’t have much faith in Jones. I don’t get a lot of these play calls from earlier in the year when they showed some aggression and played to win than play so conservative and just tried to hang in it seems. I get that the difference is then we had Shepard, Robinson, some better health on the OL and elsewhere. Now we are depleated, but you have to still play to win the game. I don’t know I just don’t know what to make of it.
Really can’t wait to read your WR write ups we will need to draft 2-3 next year for sure. Not having a threat or reliable weapon at WR at all makes this offense incredibly one dimensional. Will be an interesting off season. I don’t know what they do with Barkley or Jones, I could see them tagging Barkley and drafting a RB. Then maybe trading Barkley on the tag to get something in return for him. He just doesn’t seem like someone that is long for this team, his play while we get glimpses here and there of some specialness, they are too far and few between. Age and injuries catching up to him, I think it’s time to move in to a cheaper option.
It doesn't make sense.
It doesn't make sense.
It makes sense when you look at more in depth. They were down two scored against Dallas. They had to trust him. The end of the first half against Washington and their 4th and 3 they were down three or tied.
Basically they don’t trust him enough to take risks when the game isn’t immediately in the balance. They’d rather punt there, pin Washington back and take a chance getting the ball back. If they were down they probably go for it there.
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JV squad at WR.
Interior line a mess
TE having a bad game
All quotes from the review
Yet when the 4th down play happened- Coach doesn’t trust DJ?
Are ya kidding me? Maybe, just maybe, he doesn’t trust all the other crap around him?
Just a thought
***understand is this
Maybe he doesn’t trust the line to hold up? Would you?
Or Slayton and the rest of the JV squad to actually hold on to the ball or get open. Would you?
Or SB to get 3 tough yards? Would you?
Or anybody on the offense to make a darn play other than the QB? Would you?
Do we even have anything remotely resembling a decent slot receiver now?
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on his own side of the fifty in Dallas. After 5 quarters where the ball hardly hit the ground Daboll does a 180 and doesn't trust him anymore???
It doesn't make sense.
It makes sense when you look at more in depth. They were down two scored against Dallas. They had to trust him. The end of the first half against Washington and their 4th and 3 they were down three or tied.
Basically they don’t trust him enough to take risks when the game isn’t immediately in the balance. They’d rather punt there, pin Washington back and take a chance getting the ball back. If they were down they probably go for it there.
I though the Giants were down 1 score in Dallas?
I though the Giants were down 1 score in Dallas?
They were that’s my mistake, but they also absolutely needed to get points on that drive. The defense had been on the field for 8 minutes the drive before. Dallas ended up scoring on the next drive, but they probably would have even if the Giants punted. 4th and 1 is also different than 4th and 3.
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In comment 15935798 Ron Johnson said:
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on his own side of the fifty in Dallas. After 5 quarters where the ball hardly hit the ground Daboll does a 180 and doesn't trust him anymore???
It doesn't make sense.
It makes sense when you look at more in depth. They were down two scored against Dallas. They had to trust him. The end of the first half against Washington and their 4th and 3 they were down three or tied.
Basically they don’t trust him enough to take risks when the game isn’t immediately in the balance. They’d rather punt there, pin Washington back and take a chance getting the ball back. If they were down they probably go for it there.
I though the Giants were down 1 score in Dallas?
1 point. So the game was “in the balance” down one point 6 mins gone from the 3rd quarter but not in sudden death ? That makes even less sense
Interior line a mess
TE having a bad game
All quotes from the review
Yet when the 4th down play happened- Coach doesn’t trust DJ?
Are ya kidding me? Maybe, just maybe, he doesn’t trust all the other crap around him?
Just a thought
Wow, a comonsense post by a logical poster. Agree 100%
That's easy for me to say however. If Saquon was traded by the deadline, and then the team went on its current downswing, the fan base would have blamed Schoen for wasting a playoff run.
You could not have traded Saquon at that time. Forget the fan base. It tells the team you’ve quit. You can’t quit on your team. Not as a player, a coach or a GM.
Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Jones rookie year gets touted a lot and the supporting cast was arguably worse, especially along the offensive line. If we got 80% of that year 1 I think that would be viewed as a success.
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Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Annapolis Mike -- there were many, many times when Eli strapped the team on his back and led the way to a win, and when I as a watcher believed he could do it
So far - this year -- there has been more than enough evidence, that under pressure Jones is as much likely to be part of a whiffed play as not. There is something very awkward about him.
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a solid read on Schoen/Daboll as to their views of Jones. I am not as certain as Sy seems. At times, I think they are willing to move on. At other times, I think they realize the limitations of the supporting cast and the progress he has made despite it.
I guess what I'm saying is I will not be shocked if they keep Jones or let him walk.
I also wonder how the 2023 QB class impacts all of this. On the surface, the class does not appear to be as strong as once anticipated.
I feel exactly the same way. They didn't pick up Jones's fifth year option, but that was expected. They were both new, and needed to see him for themselves. And now he's dealing with a porous interior OL and the worst WRs in the league. His only deep threat likely would have been cut if he had not agreed to a pay cut. But the counter argument that he doesn't process quickly enough is also valid.
I don't think they will sign him to a long-term contract this offseason, but I could see a two year deal or even the FT. I agree that other options for QB will at least to some extent affect their decision and any offer.
Jones is the most polarizing player in the history of BBI IMO. And yet after four and a half years, I still don't know what they should do with him.
Agree Acid. Good post.
We need to find out what we have in Jones in these "game on the line" situations. He can't claim to know what DJ will do until he sees him in actual game situations. We had a chance to find out and he punted. And to make matters worse, he didn't have his team prepared to run a clean play on the pivotal 3rd and 2 before that.
There was no harm in going for the win there. It's really frustrating he pussied out, and I agree it sets the opposite tone he claims he wanted. It's hard to reverse those perceptions too.
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In comment 15935614 gidiefor said:
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Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Annapolis Mike -- there were many, many times when Eli strapped the team on his back and led the way to a win, and when I as a watcher believed he could do it
So far - this year -- there has been more than enough evidence, that under pressure Jones is as much likely to be part of a whiffed play as not. There is something very awkward about him.
Awkward? Eli is the definition of awkward ;-) Again...Eli was magical at times. But the Giants were 118-118 with him under center. I don't want to turn this into a thread that bashes one of the best QB's in NYG history. But Eli was profoundly average much of the time. And the Giants under Eli won playoff games in two seasons in his career. (good seasons)
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In comment 15935614 gidiefor said:
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Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Annapolis Mike -- there were many, many times when Eli strapped the team on his back and led the way to a win, and when I as a watcher believed he could do it
So far - this year -- there has been more than enough evidence, that under pressure Jones is as much likely to be part of a whiffed play as not. There is something very awkward about him.
Eli had ELITE receivers and TE's ... Come on now, it is ok to believe Jones isn't the guy it is another to use a a completely slanted argument to try and prove your point.
Everyone of Eli's receiving corps were better than Jones's group this year and it isn't even close. Seriously, Reuben Randle would hands down be the #1 WR here right now and Sinorce Moss would be James. Hell, Ramses Barden would be a top 3...
Jones rookie year gets touted a lot and the supporting cast was arguably worse, especially along the offensive line. If we got 80% of that year 1 I think that would be viewed as a success.
I would take 80% of Jones from a rookie. But you are taking a big risk that a QB even gets to 100% of Jones, much less the 125% needed to really make it worthwhile (taking $ out of the equation) Wanna get rid of Jones...fine. Whats the plan when drafting late in the first round with the needs the Giants have.
If Jones gives you 65% of what you’d expect of franchise QB and rookie gives you 60%, it’s much easier to fill that 40% void with better talent with an extra $20 million to spend, than the 35% void with Jones on a contract that costs $20-30 million AAV.
Next we will see the double kneel down
Its tough. I think some of you guys want to see Jones slinging it all over the place - that much has even been referenced for the upcoming eagles game. The problem is he has Slay and Bradberry on who? Richie James and Slayton? All while not being able to step up in the pocket on most drop backs... Its near impossible to evaluate some of the things people want evaluated as currently constructed.
Boy was our interior OL bad and I give Sy credit, if you've been reading his reviews he's been pounding the drum for a top notch guard for years. We brought a lot of bodies in at the interior positions, but its time to go and get a top tier guy or two. We seem to have the tackle position solved for a good while.
Joe Beckwith - if they've already made decisions without actually finding out what he does in a real game, that's pretty weird. What's the harm in actually giving him a shot there? The harm in NOT giving him a shot is what Sy mentioned, and that's tough to come back from. Potentially costly rookie mistake by a first time HC IMO.
Boy was our interior OL bad and I give Sy credit, if you've been reading his reviews he's been pounding the drum for a top notch guard for years. We brought a lot of bodies in at the interior positions, but its time to go and get a top tier guy or two. We seem to have the tackle position solved for a good while.
Yup. I've been saying the same forever. Especially at C
They’re still trying to make the playoffs, so if they don’t trust him to let it rip they aren’t going to just do that to evaluate him and risk the playoffs.
They’re still trying to make the playoffs, so if they don’t trust him to let it rip they aren’t going to just do that to evaluate him and risk the playoffs.
I think they ended up in a position they didn't necessarily expect (not that they'll ever admit that), and BD is now trying to hold on to that playoff position and has gone super conservative.
That's easy for me to say however. If Saquon was traded by the deadline, and then the team went on its current downswing, the fan base would have blamed Schoen for wasting a playoff run.
Yup, guarantee if the Giants had been 1-3-1 in their last 5 at the trade deadline, Schoen would've blown it up.
coached scared.
This! I put this on Daboll, not Jones. A coaching mistake.
He's made a few lately.
I think they ended up in a position they didn't necessarily expect (not that they'll ever admit that), and BD is now trying to hold on to that playoff position and has gone super conservative.
I concur.
When you actually have games that mean something, that collar gets a little tighter lol
Hoping that BD realizes he's still playing with house money and starts taking chances more.
Probably felt a bit burned by the Dallas call, hence punting versus WSH.
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coached scared.
This! I put this on Daboll, not Jones. A coaching mistake.
He's made a few lately.
I don't mind a first time HC making mistakes. What is important is acknowledging and growing. I don't think there is anything suggesting he won't but time will tell.
+1 I thought Jones played quite well. If he had the receivers Washington has, and Washington had ours, Giants win that game.
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I think they ended up in a position they didn't necessarily expect (not that they'll ever admit that), and BD is now trying to hold on to that playoff position and has gone super conservative.
I concur.
When you actually have games that mean something, that collar gets a little tighter lol
Hoping that BD realizes he's still playing with house money and starts taking chances more.
Probably felt a bit burned by the Dallas call, hence punting versus WSH.
This is the part you can't really prepare for until you've experienced it.
I also think he and Kafka have just about exhausted their bag of tricks. This time of year it's hard to fool anyone. Your guys have to go out and beat the man in front of them. When it comes to trusting his guys it's kind of a moot point. He has no choice but to trust them.
Wash couldn't cover for shit and couldn't strop the QB runs but we let them off the hook.
Boy was our interior OL bad and I give Sy credit, if you've been reading his reviews he's been pounding the drum for a top notch guard for years. We brought a lot of bodies in at the interior positions, but its time to go and get a top tier guy or two. We seem to have the tackle position solved for a good while.
They were awful. Between IOL and TEs we had free rushers every other play. It was maddening.
If Jones gives you 65% of what you’d expect of franchise QB and rookie gives you 60%, it’s much easier to fill that 40% void with better talent with an extra $20 million to spend, than the 35% void with Jones on a contract that costs $20-30 million AAV.
There is Jones' market assuming they want him back which I don't think they do. But, if he is willing to play for that kind of money, fine sign him, and then bring in the competition. I think they would just as soon cut ties to him and wouldn't be surprised to see Taylor go too. These guys are replaceable.
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You can compliment the value a QB gives you much if there’s more money to spend. A QB that gives you 80% of Jones year 1 and maybe at most gives you 110% of Jones by year 4 is much more tolerable at the price tag that he comes with.
If Jones gives you 65% of what you’d expect of franchise QB and rookie gives you 60%, it’s much easier to fill that 40% void with better talent with an extra $20 million to spend, than the 35% void with Jones on a contract that costs $20-30 million AAV.
The market is the market. He's a journeyman qb. The journeyman qb's are getting between 3 and 9 million on short term deal. Mariota is getting 9 million on a 2 year deal. Dalton is getting 3. Smith got 3.5 and Brisett got 4.6. Tyrod got 5.5 for 2 years. Heincke is getting about 2.5. All these guys (except Mariota and Taylor) are free agents after this season, and no doubt more will be released.
There is Jones' market assuming they want him back which I don't think they do. But, if he is willing to play for that kind of money, fine sign him, and then bring in the competition. I think they would just as soon cut ties to him and wouldn't be surprised to see Taylor go too. These guys are replaceable.
IF they can keep Jones on a one year deal along those lines I would bet every dollar I own he's here next season as the true bridge QB.
Whether Jones can get more on the open market remains to be seen. If he can't, he's back on a cheap deal like the ones you alluded to and there'[s nothing wrong with that. Keep the QB pipeline open and deploy a halfway decent option until he's found.
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In comment 15935614 gidiefor said:
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Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Annapolis Mike -- there were many, many times when Eli strapped the team on his back and led the way to a win, and when I as a watcher believed he could do it
So far - this year -- there has been more than enough evidence, that under pressure Jones is as much likely to be part of a whiffed play as not. There is something very awkward about him.
OK, let's compare Jones to a 2x Super Bowl MVP and future HOFer when most fans were ready to run him out of town before he got Plax.
I am not even a Jones apologist but this place is off their rocker.
If they don't trust Jones and they won't go to Taylor, then I am rethinking Daboll and his staff.
Easy to win with healthy bodies.
You have a running back making business decisions. Wideouts that can't catch. interior linemen that can't block. play callers going away from what was working and calls predictable plays over and over again.
The QB outrushes the star Running Back..
80% completion pct and the guy with the 2nd most drops in the league can't catch a ball that hits him in the hands.
Yet its the QB's fault.
unbelievable.
I don't get it. I really don't.
dude has nothing at wr, IOL getting abused and a all star RB who doesnt seem to be playing like it (of course with no OIL its not easy)
Not a huge jones fan but i would give him a 2 yr deal and ride with him
there is much worse out there
He knows what to look for.
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In comment 15935885 AnnapolisMike said:
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In comment 15935614 gidiefor said:
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Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Annapolis Mike -- there were many, many times when Eli strapped the team on his back and led the way to a win, and when I as a watcher believed he could do it
So far - this year -- there has been more than enough evidence, that under pressure Jones is as much likely to be part of a whiffed play as not. There is something very awkward about him.
Awkward? Eli is the definition of awkward ;-) Again...Eli was magical at times. But the Giants were 118-118 with him under center. I don't want to turn this into a thread that bashes one of the best QB's in NYG history. But Eli was profoundly average much of the time. And the Giants under Eli won playoff games in two seasons in his career. (good seasons)
Profoundly average because of inferior talent. Look at the last 5 years and how the record went south during that time frame. I mean if you want to start going that route have you heard of Fran Tarkenton? HOF quarterback but he had a record of 33-36 during his stay in NY. I am sure the fact that the Vikings had a lot better talent had no factor in him having a winning record overall lifetime!
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And still think he’s better than Tyrod. It’s not a binary situation.
They’re still trying to make the playoffs, so if they don’t trust him to let it rip they aren’t going to just do that to evaluate him and risk the playoffs.
I think they ended up in a position they didn't necessarily expect (not that they'll ever admit that), and BD is now trying to hold on to that playoff position and has gone super conservative.
+1.
what is the coach supposed to do? Call a drop back pass and get the qb killed or sacked?
for 10 years the o line has stunk and yet some here want to debate whether to keep Jones or Barkley. Honestly if they don't fix the o line they might as well let Jones and Barkley walk because neither will ever be effective behind this crap line.
Jones and or Barkley may not be great.
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In comment 15935746 map7711 said:
I don’t care how it s spun, no one knows if they believe in Jones or not, it s easy to spin any and all actions to support which ever narrative you want
I mean we couldn’t even agree if he played well on Sunday. I felt he did, evidently Sy did as well.
If the Giants move on from Jones it will be obvious they do not believe in him. Long time supporters like me will have to admit we were wrong.
But I have a feeling if the Giants resign him, and fans like me point to that as evidence they did after all believe in him, there will be much push back on this board.
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JV squad at WR.
Interior line a mess
TE having a bad game
All quotes from the review
Yet when the 4th down play happened- Coach doesn’t trust DJ?
Are ya kidding me? Maybe, just maybe, he doesn’t trust all the other crap around him?
Just a thought
***understand is this
Maybe he doesn’t trust the line to hold up? Would you?
Or Slayton and the rest of the JV squad to actually hold on to the ball or get open. Would you?
Or SB to get 3 tough yards? Would you?
Or anybody on the offense to make a darn play other than the QB? Would you?
Do we even have anything remotely resembling a decent slot receiver now?
We need to find out what we have in Jones in these "game on the line" situations. He can't claim to know what DJ will do until he sees him in actual game situations. We had a chance to find out and he punted. And to make matters worse, he didn't have his team prepared to run a clean play on the pivotal 3rd and 2 before that.
There was no harm in going for the win there. It's really frustrating he pussied out, and I agree it sets the opposite tone he claims he wanted. It's hard to reverse those perceptions too.
DJ has repeatedly been clutch in the 4th with the game the line, accounting for nearly every win we have.
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I really hope Julian Love gets signed. I wonder what money is he going to command. Top 10 safety money? I think he's earned that.
Definitely top 10 safety money
He might be looking for top 5 money. Looking at safeties his age who have signed long term deals he might be getting Marcus Williams type money: https://overthecap.com/player/marcus-williams/5628
safety contracts - ( New Window )
Tua has twice as many 20+yd completions on fewer passes thrown. Mariota, Tannehill and Davis Mills all have 30 or more, all on fewer completions.
Closer to Jones is the mighty Andy Dalton of the lowly Saints. Same number of 20+, almost identical number of 40+, Dalton has thrown 15tds to Jones's 11 on fewer throws. My biggest criticism of Jones remains as it always has been: he doesn't throw enough touchdowns. Using my eyes, I don't believe it all lies with the receiver corps. He is a very, very ordinary quarterback who tries hard. Can't question his character, but the skill and vision is not there. Doesn't read the game well enough or react quick enough. We have to move on from him.
I am convinced Schoen and Daboll feel the same way.
After all those games in Buffalo with Josh Allen, how could they not?
You may need to sign Jones and then draft someone in the second or third rounds to develop and take his place.
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In comment 15935885 AnnapolisMike said:
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In comment 15935614 gidiefor said:
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Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I think our blue colored glasses regarding Eli in the regular season get the best of us. There were times with Eli I would cringe every time he dropped back to pass. Eli could be masterful when he was on. But he had terrible games throughout his career.
I'm not sold on Jones, but barring a collapse I struggle to see options significantly better than him. It could well be that the Giants came into the season with the belief that they would have a good draft position. Barring a collapse (which would make it easy to jettison Jones) a replacement QB might be difficult to acquire.
Annapolis Mike -- there were many, many times when Eli strapped the team on his back and led the way to a win, and when I as a watcher believed he could do it
So far - this year -- there has been more than enough evidence, that under pressure Jones is as much likely to be part of a whiffed play as not. There is something very awkward about him.
OK, let's compare Jones to a 2x Super Bowl MVP and future HOFer when most fans were ready to run him out of town before he got Plax.
I am not even a Jones apologist but this place is off their rocker.
If they don't trust Jones and they won't go to Taylor, then I am rethinking Daboll and his staff.
Easy to win with healthy bodies.
You have a running back making business decisions. Wideouts that can't catch. interior linemen that can't block. play callers going away from what was working and calls predictable plays over and over again.
The QB outrushes the star Running Back..
80% completion pct and the guy with the 2nd most drops in the league can't catch a ball that hits him in the hands.
Yet its the QB's fault.
unbelievable.
I agree. Jones may not be worth keeping but he far from being the problem
Tua has twice as many 20+yd completions on fewer passes thrown. Mariota, Tannehill and Davis Mills all have 30 or more, all on fewer completions.
Closer to Jones is the mighty Andy Dalton of the lowly Saints. Same number of 20+, almost identical number of 40+, Dalton has thrown 15tds to Jones's 11 on fewer throws. My biggest criticism of Jones remains as it always has been: he doesn't throw enough touchdowns. Using my eyes, I don't believe it all lies with the receiver corps. He is a very, very ordinary quarterback who tries hard. Can't question his character, but the skill and vision is not there. Doesn't read the game well enough or react quick enough. We have to move on from him.
I am convinced Schoen and Daboll feel the same way.
After all those games in Buffalo with Josh Allen, how could they not?
You cannot compare Jones' numbers to others with actual WRs. He has one semi-legit deep threat and a hodgepodge of low level free agents and castoffs. He lost his one legit TE to a fractured eye socket for 4 weeks. Sy calls this group the JV.
IMHO, he is not the answer at QB, but to throw numbers out there about deep plays is stretching reality.
Sometimes the truth is right in front of our eyes. Thank you.
Tua has twice as many 20+yd completions on fewer passes thrown. Mariota, Tannehill and Davis Mills all have 30 or more, all on fewer completions.
Closer to Jones is the mighty Andy Dalton of the lowly Saints. Same number of 20+, almost identical number of 40+, Dalton has thrown 15tds to Jones's 11 on fewer throws. My biggest criticism of Jones remains as it always has been: he doesn't throw enough touchdowns. Using my eyes, I don't believe it all lies with the receiver corps. He is a very, very ordinary quarterback who tries hard. Can't question his character, but the skill and vision is not there. Doesn't read the game well enough or react quick enough. We have to move on from him.
I am convinced Schoen and Daboll feel the same way.
After all those games in Buffalo with Josh Allen, how could they not?
Tua has Waddle and Hill. Slayton would be 3rd or 4th on their depth chart. Not a far comparison. The others are fair comparisons though and its not good for Daniel Jones and this offense.
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a solid read on Schoen/Daboll as to their views of Jones. I am not as certain as Sy seems. At times, I think they are willing to move on. At other times, I think they realize the limitations of the supporting cast and the progress he has made despite it.
I guess what I'm saying is I will not be shocked if they keep Jones or let him walk.
I also wonder how the 2023 QB class impacts all of this. On the surface, the class does not appear to be as strong as once anticipated.
This is spot on -- and is a very telling analysis. Daboll and Shoen have shown a propensity to say all the right things, and always state things as positively as they can about current players. They did that about Kadarius and then shot him out into the nether region.
I think that this is clearly what it appears to be. They are managing a tough situation, that they have already made the best of. If they need to keep Jones they don't want to have any words out there that will come back and bite them. But they have shown they can cut bait pretty quickly when the opportunity arises.
In my opinion there is no way Jones is the long term answer and they know it. When the right opportunity comes they will go for it. It will be sudden, swift, and decisive.
Ask yourself -- Do you trust Jones for three yards on 4th down when the chips are down and the real pressure is on, the same way you trusted Eli? In my view NFW.
I wonder how much you trusted Eli up through Week 16 of the 2007 in that same scenario?
I wonder how Eli would have performed, during his 4th season, with this receiving corps and interior Oline?
I watched this same Corner Forum demand that TC be fired and Eli cut for most of that season. He was known as a turnover machine, right up until they went to Tampa that post-season....even with a near All-Star offensive roster.
Oh, btw I consider Eli to be the best Giants QB I have seen in my 50+ years watching the team....but be fair, he would have been buried by year 4 if this was his supporting cast.
I don't believe it's that he's "not running hard". It's that this is who he has been. He can make the occasional physical play like sy indicated but that's not his game
When he was at his best this year, he was more aggressive, but he still wasn't doing that. It's just that the blocking was better, the threat of the RPO with Jones was backing teams off, and the rest of the league was still learning the Giants tendencies. He did get hurt, and maybe that's made him a little more tentative.
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In comment 15935430 M.S. said:
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coached scared.
This! I put this on Daboll, not Jones. A coaching mistake.
He's made a few lately.
I don't mind a first time HC making mistakes. What is important is acknowledging and growing. I don't think there is anything suggesting he won't but time will tell.
Yea, let's defend a QB that is either a turnover machine, or puts up the production of a NFL backup
QB (there'sno in between), and throw the HC/OC that got that QB to 6-1, under the bus.
Now you're thinking!
They see him in practice, they see him in games, they see his film. They know what he's capable, and incapable, of. I'd bet they know more than know-nothing posters on the interwebs?
You may need to sign Jones and then draft someone in the second or third rounds to develop and take his place.
The only way Jones signs a contract to be the bridge to his own replacement is if all 31 other teams laugh at him
Is there a worse pass blocking RG and C than Feliciano and Glowinski. If you can’t protect up the middle you can’t design a drop back pass game.
Was WR: McClaurin, Samuel, Doctson. TE: Thomas
NY WR: Slayton, Hodgins, James. TE: Bellinger
Next week Philly
WR: Brown, Smith, Watkins
I really think you should include an introduction paragraph or two for the game. You always find interesting historical facts that make it worth reading. Simply starting an article with ‘QUARTERBACK’ is a bit jarring (at least to me).
If the game summary section isn’t coming back, could it be replaced by adding an additional link to Eric’s post-game article to the Gameday Preview/Review section?
That way there’s still a linear view of what happened in each game available for us to reference.
Yea, let's defend a QB that is either a turnover machine, or puts up the production of a NFL backup QB (there's no in between), and throw the HC/OC that got that QB to 6-1, under the bus.
Now you're thinking!
They see him in practice, they see him in games, they see his film. They know what he's capable, and incapable, of. I'd bet they know more than know-nothing posters on the interwebs?
This is not a bad post except, Jones has not been a turn over machine for a couple years. He has 7 total this year. If you make a good post, do not dilute it with opinion that is worthless. Remember that 6 of Jones' INTs last year were because Engram allowed the ball to bounce off his hands to a DB.
You may need to sign Jones and then draft someone in the second or third rounds to develop and take his place.
I'm in total agreement with you. I am regularly posting on here that Schoen's biggest challenge is to find a quarterback. The salary cap, the offensive line, wide receivers - all those will get sorted over the next couple of seasons. But quarterback? It's damn tricky. Supposedly there are some good quarterbacks coming through in the next two drafts, but I don't know how we get in a position to draft one without damaging our ability to strengthen elsewhere.
a) win the game
b) make the playoffs
c) continue the growth of Jones in the system (maintaining his and his teammates confidence)
I see a young QB who needs to be paired with a true #1 to take the next step.
a) win the game
b) make the playoffs
c) continue the growth of Jones in the system (maintaining his and his teammates confidence)
I see a young QB who needs to be paired with a true #1 to take the next step.
What if? But unlikely. When a pass game is limited it's always about the QB.
Lamar took a step with Andrews.
Tua took a step with Hill.
Hurts took a step with Brown.
Allen took a step with Diggs.
Eli took a step with Plax.
Brady took a step with Moss.
Could go on. Each of these players elevated their game and ranking amongst their peers when they were paired with a legitimate #1.
If Jones is top 15-20 now, and IMO he is with a bottom third skill group/front, he’ll improve commensurate to the improvement of his skill group and front.
Mara stated they hadn’t done enough to help him, in fact, they hurt his growth. Having him try to “air it out” with this skill group and front would be more of the same.
Lamar took a step with Andrews.
Tua took a step with Hill.
Hurts took a step with Brown.
Allen took a step with Diggs.
Eli took a step with Plax.
Brady took a step with Moss.
Could go on. Each of these players elevated their game and ranking amongst their peers when they were paired with a legitimate #1.
If Jones is top 15-20 now, and IMO he is with a bottom third skill group/front, he’ll improve commensurate to the improvement of his skill group and front.
Mara stated they hadn’t done enough to help him, in fact, they hurt his growth. Having him try to “air it out” with this skill group and front would be more of the same.
You had to get Tua and Hurts a legit #1 and #2.
The greater point remains but you know that….no need to nitpick.
Yes, Allen elevated his game when they got Diggs but he also has a better skill set. Tua’s skillset as a deep passer is better. Hurts and Jones are probably the same as throwers, but Hurts is very good at manipulating the pocket, something Jones hadn’t shown in his skillset.
It’s not really Apple to apples comparisons. You’re working off the assumption that Jones will take a similar jump but there’s nothing that suggests that’s a certainty.
Meanwhile Jones faceplanted between years 1 and 2 and is basically generating the same stats in year 4 that he did in years 2 and 3.
Frankly, this argument is ridiculous. Putting a clown on a stage with Shakespearean actors doesn't make the clown a Shakespearean actor. You get the Shakespearean actors when the clown displays a talent for acting.
Meanwhile Jones faceplanted between years 1 and 2 and is basically generating the same stats in year 4 that he did in years 2 and 3.
Frankly, this argument is ridiculous. Putting a clown on a stage with Shakespearean actors doesn't make the clown a Shakespearean actor. You get the Shakespearean actors when the clown displays a talent for acting.
And again, how do you know, based on the talent the Eagles have vs. The Giants overall? That team is freaking loaded. Put Jones on that Eagles squad and they have a similar record to what they have now. In my opinion.
If Hurts and Jones are interchangeable, why is Brown having a better year than he had with Tannehill?
If Hurts and Jones are interchangeable, why is Brown having a better year than he had with Tannehill?
The answer is in my post. That whole Eagles team is loaded. It makes a difference to every actual good player on the team when they play with peers who are that good. It's not just the QB. And if Sirianni is worth his salt, he tailors his play calling and overall offense to take advantage of whatever QB he has strengths and weaknesses. Which would be both more and less pronounced based on the skill level of the rest of the offense.
And again, that whole team is stacked. There are a LOT of pieces for defenses playing the Eagles to worry about. They have 3 WR that would become our #1 by a large margin. They have a very good OL. They have very good RBs. All made better by the fact that they are all good. I mean who is the weak point on that offense?
Regardless, anyone arguing that Jones wouldn’t improve with a legit #1 is just being obtuse.
Right...it's also the interior Oline and TEs.