And I think the point on Jones is why the constant debating (though I understand it’s what we do here) on Jones is pointless.
This regime has shown from the start how they feel about Jones, whether we like it or not. Whether we think he can be the future or needs to be gone.
It’s clear what they think. It’s not just the lack of weapons around him. They just don’t trust him and will likely be looking for a QB they pick to build around.
At the end of the first half. There is no reason to not trust Jones to take a shot into the end zone. He’s has played smart, limited turnover football for the season. It certainly has made me question my opinion of the coaching staff so I know it does for the players as well.
but why is not going for it on 4th and 3 an indictment of the qb instead of an indictment on the jv receivers? or the offense generally given that richie james couldn't get out of his own way in a similarly crucial spot?
also thought the decision there showed a lack of confidence in the defense to prevent the skins from getting 20 yards should the offense fail to convert.
not sure it's entirely fair to put that decision all on a lack of faith in the qb...
Whether from a loss of confidence while being targeted or just playing more playoff level snaps than he ever had before, his legs looked shot. In fact, on the PD you cited, a player with his legs under him picks that ball off.
That was a great call by Wink knowing they were going to Terry.
Well done, Sy. I have to agree that the biggest disappointment of this game was the lack of confidence shown by the HC. That and the utter lack of urgency when they had the ball at the end of the first half. It seemed that they were happy with a FG. Very disappointing.
You don't make it and WFT is like 15 yards away from a GW FG.
Eh...prob 20-25 yards
and if you get it (it is freakin 3 yards) you are in the drivers seat. Agree or disagree does not matter...this is coming from a HC that said he was going to play aggressive. The offense was finally clicking. They had to get 3 yards. They got 3+ 6 out of 7 plays and the one play they didn't was a miscommunication in the backfield.
They had the win right there and he chose not to pursue it.
There are other reasonable ways to look at the trust issue. Perhaps the coaches didn’t trust the OL & receivers to take the risk. Perhaps they made the calculation that the tie gives them a better chance to make the playoffs than a loss There is far more data that supports these possibilities, than there is about not trusting Jones.
Well, I guess people will unclog their ears now that Sy said it
Is a guy with all the power who runs like a finesse back. Where’s the angry runner with something to prove from early in the year. Is it the shoulder? I sometimes you just gotta run someone over for 3 yards.
I don’t get the “don’t trust Jones” narrative in this one. 16/16, then 8/8. I mean what more could he do? I don’t think they trust the whole O. And the Barkley James keystone kop play didn’t help, coming right before that key first. With the playoffs on the line I think Dabes and Kafka are getting tight and more not to lose.
All of that said, with a mess of a roster and injuries everywhere, we have 2 years worth of wins already based on the typical past decade’s performance. I say it’s house money, Dabes. Let it rip!
think Daboll is more conservative now because of the injuries and the fact that we have a winning record and are in playoff position. None of that was true in week one.
Get used to the fact that Jones will get a serious offer from the Giants & other teams, and only Jones will decide where he wants to play. You all better hope it’s the Giants. I for one do not want to go thru another 2-3 year rebuilding process…with more risks than Jones as the qb.
The clear take away by Dabs' decisions in the game, starting with the end of the 2nd quarter, are that the coaches have no confidence in Jones.
Jones-Barkley combo appears not to be the answer.
Eh. Watch the Twitter video of Evan Neal’s pass protection for the entire game. While he’s the focus, you get to see just how putrid the pass protection was, especially on the interior. I thought that clearly affected how the game was called. On the Giants first score of the game (FG), they didn’t even attempt to get the first down on a 3rd & 5 in WASH territory.
But to be fair to your point, I can’t explain what the coaching staff is doing sometimes. I still have no clue what they were doing at the end of the Cowboys game on Thanksgiving. It’s even more bizarre when you consider that they were aggressive at the end of the first half. While the focus for some is the QB, I’m not certain that they trust anyone.
Quote:
The playoff-bubble all of the sudden makes them scared to try and go for a win? This was Daboll’s biggest gaffe of the year and if you don’t think that decision changes the “mindset” (his words) of players moving forward, you are dead wrong. To me, it is no coincidence that Daboll is all of the sudden afraid to keep his foot on the gas is occurring at the same time as we are all seeing a drop off in aggression from Barkley. Good coaches dictate culture and confidence.
I think this is the big issue. The playoffs are right there and I think Daboll has gotten soft in the face of it.
was analytics driven. Not about the chances of picking it up but the chances of making the playoffs after a tie.
100% this. A win was not so much better than a tie. A loss was significantly worse, for playoff positioning. That's what shaped the strategy. I bet that they will not be so conservative the next time against Washington, when they need the win.
Daboll relies heavily on his analytics guys for game decisions I think. That's what that was. He even hinted at it in the postgame press conference:
Quote:
Q: Back to the fourth-and-3, you made that statement in the first game when you went for two. You were aggressive. Why not today?
A: Well, I think it's later in the season...
RE: RE: Huh? Going for it on 4th and 3 would have been fucking idiotic.
You don't make it and WFT is like 15 yards away from a GW FG.
Eh...prob 20-25 yards
and if you get it (it is freakin 3 yards) you are in the drivers seat. Agree or disagree does not matter...this is coming from a HC that said he was going to play aggressive. The offense was finally clicking. They had to get 3 yards. They got 3+ 6 out of 7 plays and the one play they didn't was a miscommunication in the backfield.
They had the win right there and he chose not to pursue it.
I see where you are coming from with respect to the proclamations of being an aggressive team, but the Giants got exactly what they wanted, a 3 and out with time left on the clock and the ball in good field position. If not for some serious officiating errors, and some poor clock management by Daboll himself not immediately calling a timeout after the Thibodeaux sack (correct me if I’m wrong but he let at least 8 seconds tick off after that sack), the Giants had more than adequate time to get into realistic FG range. He ensured the outcome was T or W, rather than risking the L, which would have been absolutely crushing. I’m OK with his decision to punt on 4th and 3, but I don’t think it’s clear cut “right” or “wrong” either way.
Jones completes over 80% no INTs, leading rusher, in the playoff picture with a sub-par offense - yet the coaches may not trust him and half the fans want a new QB. Very unusual situation.
With not going for it on 4&3 but not taking a shot in the end zone at the end of the first have is chicken shit type move.. you can’t talk the talk if you won’t walk the walk. It’s easy to be aggressive on the beginning of the season with low expectations. Doing it now with really consequences on the season is a whole different story.
I have been a big fan of Daboll but that move doesn’t sit well with me
I read the entire piece this time and enjoyed it thoroughly. Well done, and great points. I think this what you excel in and what our readers really want from you.
I read the entire piece this time and enjoyed it thoroughly. Well done, and great points. I think this what you excel in and what our readers really want from you.
Much appreciate all your insights. Lots and lots of information to ponder. Found these remarks you made about Daniel Jones particularly interesting:
"The biggest question surrounding him and his long-term outlook revolve around can he shoulder the entire offense in key moments? Can he do it? NYG could have used this game to help answer that question and they cowardly walked in the other direction."
"After watching the All-22, Jones played a good game, even keeping the first quarter fumble in mind."
"The lack of confidence Daboll showed on the 4th-and-3 was unwarranted from my perspective and may be more telling than some want to think. They do not believe in him."
You may have hit the nail on the head about how Daboll feels about Daniel Jones. If true, seems like one of two future paths for Daniel Jones:
(1) Giants sign him on a short-term deal as a bridge and/or back-up to somebody else; or,
(2) Daniel Jones will be playing for some other team in 2023.
Realizes they're where they are because of SB and the D. With SB becoming ineffective, he doesn't trust the rest of the offense, Jones included, to win the game
IOL, ILB, WR just keeping showing up and not in a good way unfortunately. Great description with SB and lack of being blue collar. Seems a case of picking your battle and wonder if the defenders size is not part of it.
Interesting take on the 4th and 3. I was very upset at first and then I thought about our D which had been on the field already for so many plays. If they failed I was not very confident the D could keep them out of FG range so I finished lukewarm on the decision to punt. There was enough time where both the run and pass were still in play.
At the end of regulation when they had a chance to win, Jones threw three passes:
1. The first, he didn't lead Slayton towards the sideline. Should've been caught, but he gave the safety a chance to make a play on the ball.
2. The second, he threw an uncatchable ball and negated a possible pass interference call.
3. The third was almost picked off when he tried to squeeze it into tight coverage.
Jones' detractors protest too much I think, but Jones did not seize the win when given the chance. And it shows.
The defense already bailed them out twice at the end of regulation AND earlier in the OT.
WAS had the ball on the NYG 43 with a FG to win it and the defense stopped. If the Giants don’t convert there, there is a great chance WAS wins and Daboll gets destroyed. Tie was a better outcome than a loss.
The added player reviews! thank so much SY. I feel like the play calling was so much more creative in the beginning of the season. No creative ways to get Saquon the ball, no misdirection. Not sure what Kafka's vison for this offense is anymore.
I read the entire piece this time and enjoyed it thoroughly. Well done, and great points. I think this what you excel in and what our readers really want from you.
I read the entire piece this time and enjoyed it thoroughly. Well done, and great points. I think this what you excel in and what our readers really want from you.
Barkley was a thorn in the Giants' side. First time I really thought(or allowed myself to see) he was not running hard. They really need to use Brightwell as the bulldog on short yardage - perhaps a two back set. Barkley's pass receiving is just poor this year. I was salivating at getting him into the passing game when the season started. It almost feels like Kafka is in a rut, now.
I thought the entire 2nd half, Kafka called a weak game. I was pissed enough to turn it off at 7:48 left in the 4th.
FWIW, the punt on 4th and 3 was probably the right call. We don't like it, but ...
Question- Despite Jones doing an excellent job of hitting the guys that he threw to, watching the All-22, did you see any targeting opportunities that he missed?
a solid read on Schoen/Daboll as to their views of Jones. I am not as certain as Sy seems. At times, I think they are willing to move on. At other times, I think they realize the limitations of the supporting cast and the progress he has made despite it.
I guess what I'm saying is I will not be shocked if they keep Jones or let him walk.
I also wonder how the 2023 QB class impacts all of this. On the surface, the class does not appear to be as strong as once anticipated.
This regime has shown from the start how they feel about Jones, whether we like it or not. Whether we think he can be the future or needs to be gone.
It’s clear what they think. It’s not just the lack of weapons around him. They just don’t trust him and will likely be looking for a QB they pick to build around.
If they don't trust Jones, then put Taylor in.
Something seems off here. It's like they don't want to make the playoffs and this whole early season winning was something that derailed their plans.
All pre season long they told Jones don't worry about making mistakes, and play aggressive.
Now it looks like they are coaching not to win ala Joe Judge.
Kudos.
Play to win the damn game
coached scared.
but why is not going for it on 4th and 3 an indictment of the qb instead of an indictment on the jv receivers? or the offense generally given that richie james couldn't get out of his own way in a similarly crucial spot?
also thought the decision there showed a lack of confidence in the defense to prevent the skins from getting 20 yards should the offense fail to convert.
not sure it's entirely fair to put that decision all on a lack of faith in the qb...
Kudos.
That was a great call by Wink knowing they were going to Terry.
I will respectfully disagree with going for it there. 1 yard? Ok. 3? I thought Daboll made the right call.
That said, I had a huge issue with getting cute on a 3rd and 2 call there. Also, where is Breida? He should be seeing more snaps.
The clear take away by Dabs' decisions in the game, starting with the end of the 2nd quarter, are that the coaches have no confidence in Jones.
Jones-Barkley combo appears not to be the answer.
They need to spend the money to sign Love, Lawrence, and others.
Eh...prob 20-25 yards
and if you get it (it is freakin 3 yards) you are in the drivers seat. Agree or disagree does not matter...this is coming from a HC that said he was going to play aggressive. The offense was finally clicking. They had to get 3 yards. They got 3+ 6 out of 7 plays and the one play they didn't was a miscommunication in the backfield.
They had the win right there and he chose not to pursue it.
I don’t get the “don’t trust Jones” narrative in this one. 16/16, then 8/8. I mean what more could he do? I don’t think they trust the whole O. And the Barkley James keystone kop play didn’t help, coming right before that key first. With the playoffs on the line I think Dabes and Kafka are getting tight and more not to lose.
All of that said, with a mess of a roster and injuries everywhere, we have 2 years worth of wins already based on the typical past decade’s performance. I say it’s house money, Dabes. Let it rip!
It's also a pretty damning assessment of Jones and Barkley.
Thanks for review/new format.
The clear take away by Dabs' decisions in the game, starting with the end of the 2nd quarter, are that the coaches have no confidence in Jones.
Jones-Barkley combo appears not to be the answer.
Eh. Watch the Twitter video of Evan Neal’s pass protection for the entire game. While he’s the focus, you get to see just how putrid the pass protection was, especially on the interior. I thought that clearly affected how the game was called. On the Giants first score of the game (FG), they didn’t even attempt to get the first down on a 3rd & 5 in WASH territory.
But to be fair to your point, I can’t explain what the coaching staff is doing sometimes. I still have no clue what they were doing at the end of the Cowboys game on Thanksgiving. It’s even more bizarre when you consider that they were aggressive at the end of the first half. While the focus for some is the QB, I’m not certain that they trust anyone.
I think this is the big issue. The playoffs are right there and I think Daboll has gotten soft in the face of it.
100% this. A win was not so much better than a tie. A loss was significantly worse, for playoff positioning. That's what shaped the strategy. I bet that they will not be so conservative the next time against Washington, when they need the win.
Daboll relies heavily on his analytics guys for game decisions I think. That's what that was. He even hinted at it in the postgame press conference:
Q: Back to the fourth-and-3, you made that statement in the first game when you went for two. You were aggressive. Why not today?
A: Well, I think it's later in the season...
Quote:
You don't make it and WFT is like 15 yards away from a GW FG.
Eh...prob 20-25 yards
and if you get it (it is freakin 3 yards) you are in the drivers seat. Agree or disagree does not matter...this is coming from a HC that said he was going to play aggressive. The offense was finally clicking. They had to get 3 yards. They got 3+ 6 out of 7 plays and the one play they didn't was a miscommunication in the backfield.
They had the win right there and he chose not to pursue it.
I see where you are coming from with respect to the proclamations of being an aggressive team, but the Giants got exactly what they wanted, a 3 and out with time left on the clock and the ball in good field position. If not for some serious officiating errors, and some poor clock management by Daboll himself not immediately calling a timeout after the Thibodeaux sack (correct me if I’m wrong but he let at least 8 seconds tick off after that sack), the Giants had more than adequate time to get into realistic FG range. He ensured the outcome was T or W, rather than risking the L, which would have been absolutely crushing. I’m OK with his decision to punt on 4th and 3, but I don’t think it’s clear cut “right” or “wrong” either way.
I have been a big fan of Daboll but that move doesn’t sit well with me
+1
Much appreciate all your insights. Lots and lots of information to ponder. Found these remarks you made about Daniel Jones particularly interesting:
"The biggest question surrounding him and his long-term outlook revolve around can he shoulder the entire offense in key moments? Can he do it? NYG could have used this game to help answer that question and they cowardly walked in the other direction."
"After watching the All-22, Jones played a good game, even keeping the first quarter fumble in mind."
"The lack of confidence Daboll showed on the 4th-and-3 was unwarranted from my perspective and may be more telling than some want to think. They do not believe in him."
You may have hit the nail on the head about how Daboll feels about Daniel Jones. If true, seems like one of two future paths for Daniel Jones:
(1) Giants sign him on a short-term deal as a bridge and/or back-up to somebody else; or,
(2) Daniel Jones will be playing for some other team in 2023.
I don't get it. I really don't.
Interesting take on the 4th and 3. I was very upset at first and then I thought about our D which had been on the field already for so many plays. If they failed I was not very confident the D could keep them out of FG range so I finished lukewarm on the decision to punt. There was enough time where both the run and pass were still in play.
I don't get it. I really don't.
At the end of regulation when they had a chance to win, Jones threw three passes:
1. The first, he didn't lead Slayton towards the sideline. Should've been caught, but he gave the safety a chance to make a play on the ball.
2. The second, he threw an uncatchable ball and negated a possible pass interference call.
3. The third was almost picked off when he tried to squeeze it into tight coverage.
Jones' detractors protest too much I think, but Jones did not seize the win when given the chance. And it shows.
WAS had the ball on the NYG 43 with a FG to win it and the defense stopped. If the Giants don’t convert there, there is a great chance WAS wins and Daboll gets destroyed. Tie was a better outcome than a loss.
+100
I don't get it. I really don't.
What's 'near flawless'? He had three possessions for a game winning drive and made nothing of it. The Slayton drop was 1 down out of 4.
I agree...enjoying the new format, thank you!
I don't get it. I really don't.
He was doing his best Simms SB impression with a David Sills led passing attack.
Barkley was a thorn in the Giants' side. First time I really thought(or allowed myself to see) he was not running hard. They really need to use Brightwell as the bulldog on short yardage - perhaps a two back set. Barkley's pass receiving is just poor this year. I was salivating at getting him into the passing game when the season started. It almost feels like Kafka is in a rut, now.
I thought the entire 2nd half, Kafka called a weak game. I was pissed enough to turn it off at 7:48 left in the 4th.
FWIW, the punt on 4th and 3 was probably the right call. We don't like it, but ...
I guess what I'm saying is I will not be shocked if they keep Jones or let him walk.
I also wonder how the 2023 QB class impacts all of this. On the surface, the class does not appear to be as strong as once anticipated.