|
|
|
| Quote: |
| Playing with training wheels In the big picture, it feels wrong to criticize Daboll since he’s wrung a 7-4-1 record out of a deeply flawed roster in his first season as a head coach. But the stakes with the offense are higher, because Jones is in a contract year. If he was in his second or third season, there would be less urgency to determine if Jones can be the long-term answer at quarterback. But the way the Giants have managed Jones this season hasn’t provided a definitive answer on his future. And even with the team’s success, it doesn’t feel like the Giants are building toward something with Jones by playing this style of offense. There was a gnawing feeling during the team’s surprising 6-1 start that its style of play wasn’t sustainable. And, as expected, opponents’ focus on Barkley has grown, and his production has decreased. Defenses also appear to have figured out some of the wrinkles that sparked the Giants’ offense early in the season, like their bootleg play-action package. The Giants are 1-3-1 in their past five games, with their lone win during that stretch against the lowly Texans. Daboll has worked wonders to get the Giants into playoff contention, but with more difficult competition ahead, there would be more optimism if it didn’t feel like Jones had been operating with training wheels all season. |
The answer is no. The reason is that there's nothing on Jones's resume to suggest he's ever going to be capable of that kind of improvement even in an ideal situation - and there are no ideal situations. He's good for 19-22 points per game because that's what his skillset allows.
Quote:
can the NYG offense reach 25-26 PPG with 1-2 realistic additions and more development into 2023 IF Jones is the QB next season? And why not? They can score 20 now but not 25 next season?
I dont really see a clear path to a playoffs tier offense in one cycle.
I realize that 5 more ppg doesn't seem like much, but that's the difference between legitimate postseason contenders and not.
The Giants have been chasing this for years. It's not just 1-2 additions. It's health, which is consistently a problem, and relying on those likely young players to immediately be impact players. Adding a legit WR 1 doesn't seem likely. That quality isn't out there in free agency. Draft is not as WR rich as previous years but maybe there's an overnight celebrity that needs to be revealed.
fair points--i do think 5 PPG extra is a BIG jump, wasn't trying to diminish that.
I am honestly asking and not insisting that it can happen with Jones but I find it interesting that they are at 20+ now. But maybe they only get to 22-23 next year which aint good enough.
Quote:
In comment 15935925 djm said:
Quote:
but Jones is limited, most of BBI thinks he's awful and Daboll doesn't want him.
Curious to me.
Herbert has thrown for 3300 yards and 20 td's so far this season, and the Chargers are 2nd in passing attempts, 6th in passing yards and 7th in passing td's in the League this season, and despite the number of attempts 7th in int's. And for you "the receivers make all the difference" people, that is with Allen and Williams having played 13 games between them this season.
Herbert is a stud. 32 GM's in the NFL including our own would take Herbert over Jones every single time. Please.
JFC that's not the fucking point people. I merely said they have scored like 1.5 points MORE PER GAME. Points scored is the ultimate stat when it comes to offense.
The difference is actually 2.5 points per game, for what it's worth. I'm sure you'd want to be accurate.
Quote:
can the NYG offense reach 25-26 PPG with 1-2 realistic additions and more development into 2023 IF Jones is the QB next season? And why not? They can score 20 now but not 25 next season?
The answer is no. The reason is that there's nothing on Jones's resume to suggest he's ever going to be capable of that kind of improvement even in an ideal situation - and there are no ideal situations. He's good for 19-22 points per game because that's what his skillset allows.
No ideal situations but there sure as hell are better situations than this one. We can't field much better WRs and OL next season?
We will have better WRs next season unless this team goes full stupid in the offseason or suffers the most brutal WR luck known to man.
This isn't the same as looking to upgrade AVG WRs to an elite level, overnight, which isn't easy. We're talking about upgrading laughably bad Wrs to average or solid. That's an easy leap to take.
There's only so much you can do, before the unit has breakdowns and stuff gets blown up, esp versus a team like Philly.
I think the Giants will still play the way they have, but take more chances.
Example - third and one, play action deep for an easy score. Go for more fourth and short, eschewing FGs.
Maybe some gadget plays.
They have to hit 30 to have any chance, most likely.
Quote:
In comment 15936056 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 15935925 djm said:
Quote:
but Jones is limited, most of BBI thinks he's awful and Daboll doesn't want him.
Curious to me.
Herbert has thrown for 3300 yards and 20 td's so far this season, and the Chargers are 2nd in passing attempts, 6th in passing yards and 7th in passing td's in the League this season, and despite the number of attempts 7th in int's. And for you "the receivers make all the difference" people, that is with Allen and Williams having played 13 games between them this season.
Herbert is a stud. 32 GM's in the NFL including our own would take Herbert over Jones every single time. Please.
JFC that's not the fucking point people. I merely said they have scored like 1.5 points MORE PER GAME. Points scored is the ultimate stat when it comes to offense.
The difference is actually 2.5 points per game, for what it's worth. I'm sure you'd want to be accurate.
Fine. And he's the most beloved QB ever. 20 more points scored.
Something tells me Herbert isn't as beloved if he's the NYG QB the last 2-3 years.
Let Jones rip. If he fails you get a better draft pick.
If he is awesome you’re set at QB.
There’s no point in trying to squeeze a few extra wins out to make the playoffs. Dabolls not on the heat seat.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
Quote:
Something tells me Herbert isn't as beloved if he's the NYG QB the last 2-3 years.
This fanbase didn't even unify around a pro bowl qb until after a championship win he led the way on.
But the reality is our fanbase is deranged and shouldn't be used in any example. We are bi-polar.
Quote:
but Jones is limited, most of BBI thinks he's awful and Daboll doesn't want him.
Curious to me.
BBI was also SURE Rosen was a top QB and it was a huge mistake passing on him.
Most on here wanted no part of Rosen. If I remember correctly it was pretty much just Milton that kept talking up Rosen at every opportunity.
You do realize that going from 20 ppg to 25 would move the Giants from 21st in the league in points to about 7-8.
So if your question is can the Giants become a top-10 offense with Jones, I think many would answer no. They have never sniffed that level of production with Jones as the QB.
And no, it is not logical to just assume Jones is a very good QB always held back by poor talent. Sam Darnold has played his whole career on shitty teams and he is a shitty QB. He'd be less shitty with better players around him, but many of us are not looking to sign a free agent QB to a new deal and hope for "less shitty."
Quote:
In comment 15935937 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
is seeing it correctly imv.
They went into this season with Galloday, Sheppard, Toney and Wandale as the top 4.
Now when they can't run Jones faces challenges down/distances and he is working what has been a revolving door at WR that gets hard keeping track of.
If you are a D coordinator who do you fear outside?
Outside?
Do you really think Jones can consistently work with an outside, boundary receiver? I sure don't. Almost all of his success as a passer are crossers over the middle, which he does pretty well, and dump offs. Tough boundary throws, especially outside the hashes, especially where placement
is critical, Jones has been pretty bad.He ain't Joe Burrow.
I would have liked to see him have the opportunity to clearly show it one way or the other. Recognize that I referenced Jones "panic syndrome" in his first season when in the pocket and running. So I am not sold on Jones. What I consistently say regardless of any QB is talent around them matters. If you don't have a outstanding run game you better have a upper tier WR group and functional PB Oline.
I don't deviate from this.
Without a doubt, Jones has had a raw deal here. But there have been enough opportunities to show what traits he possesses. There are throws he cannot make on a consistent basis. I believe the HC/OC know this so they scheme around his limitations.
Quote:
In comment 15936082 djm said:
Quote:
can the NYG offense reach 25-26 PPG with 1-2 realistic additions and more development into 2023 IF Jones is the QB next season? And why not? They can score 20 now but not 25 next season?
The answer is no. The reason is that there's nothing on Jones's resume to suggest he's ever going to be capable of that kind of improvement even in an ideal situation - and there are no ideal situations. He's good for 19-22 points per game because that's what his skillset allows.
No ideal situations but there sure as hell are better situations than this one. We can't field much better WRs and OL next season?
We will have better WRs next season unless this team goes full stupid in the offseason or suffers the most brutal WR luck known to man.
This isn't the same as looking to upgrade AVG WRs to an elite level, overnight, which isn't easy. We're talking about upgrading laughably bad Wrs to average or solid. That's an easy leap to take.
You asked a question and I gave you an answer an my reason. You’re free to disagree, but you’re not going to change my mind with appeals to your hopes and dreams for what could happen in a purely hypothetical exercise.
Expect a loss, but Philly isn't invincible. Washington ended their undefeated season and Indy took them to the brink. Not exactly the NFLs best there.
I expect Daboll to play things close again and hope for turnovers. As frustrating as it is to continually be in close games were we don't open things up (except for Wink on defense) thats been the strategy that has us at 7-4-1. Maybe we'll some more help on the interior of the line.
We can win this game, its just unlikely.
Quote:
In comment 15935925 djm said:
Quote:
but Jones is limited, most of BBI thinks he's awful and Daboll doesn't want him.
Curious to me.
BBI was also SURE Rosen was a top QB and it was a huge mistake passing on him.
Most on here wanted no part of Rosen. If I remember correctly it was pretty much just Milton that kept talking up Rosen at every opportunity.
I don't remember any clamor here for Allen. Nobody expected Rosen to be a total bust as far as ability, the knock on him was whether he was committed to going all-in on football. So those who didn't want Allen or Rosen wanted Darnold or Mayfield- how did they work out?
Or why not let DJ "cook" and expose him and make clear how bad he is.
Either way, it makes moving on easier, and probably helps your draft position (if that is the plan)
It's the one year that the teams record won't matter.
It doesn't make sense to half ass it.
That said the coaching has been pretty shitty the last few weeks, and plain old gutless this week.
Playing for a tie, is literally playiing not to lose
I like Daboll, he's the coach of the future. Kafka is having growing pains,but I think in a few years he will be a very good OC. Schoen, while I like the culture he is building, I have my doubts about.
If we weren't in the playoff hunt I think they would be more aggressive with the offense, but they are afraid of losing.
In addition Barkley is just not running like he did in the first half and it coincides with the failed contract extension.
With his injury history he certainly does not want to risk injury that will cost him his next big contract. Also he may have decided he wants to play for a team with the chance of playing in the Superbowl next year and that won't be the Giants. He most likely knows he only has a few more years left in the tank and wants to get into the Superbowl.
He can't convert 3 yards? He had barely thrown an incompletion all game and was running well.
If these guys are offensive geniuses, it's pretty sad they don't have a play ready for a 4th and 3 with the game on the line. Scheme something up that you've practiced. If not - you're unprepared. It's 3 yards.
Quote:
what Daboll and Kafka already know about Jones. Daboll's job is to maximize their chances of winning. Not prove to the public what Jones can and can't do.
He can't convert 3 yards? He had barely thrown an incompletion all game and was running well.
If these guys are offensive geniuses, it's pretty sad they don't have a play ready for a 4th and 3 with the game on the line. Scheme something up that you've practiced. If not - you're unprepared. It's 3 yards.
So wait.. now Daboll and Kafka aren't good enough coaches for Daniel Jones. How many coaches is this QB gonna get canned?
They needed to win both Washington games
I like Daboll, he's the coach of the future. Kafka is having growing pains,but I think in a few years he will be a very good OC. Schoen, while I like the culture he is building, I have my doubts about.
So I’m your mind, what’s more likely?
1) The coach and GM are conspiring against the QB
2) Daniel Jones isn’t very good
Some of you sound demented.
Quote:
We are playing 3 teams in the division in 3 weeks. We need to win for sure the 2nd Washington game. And it helps not to show much when playing the Eagles.
They needed to win both Washington games
Not sure I agree. The second game is worth more than the 1st. And a tie isn't a loss.
I expect them to go all out this week.
Nobody is good enough for Daniel Jones.
Quote:
Is good that two of the main reasons were even in playoff contention are getting sarcastically called offensive geniuses. What a fan base.
Nobody is good enough for Daniel Jones.
Daniel Jones cannot fail, he can only be failed.
Quote:
In comment 15935892 TheEvilLurker said:
Quote:
We are playing 3 teams in the division in 3 weeks. We need to win for sure the 2nd Washington game. And it helps not to show much when playing the Eagles.
They needed to win both Washington games
Not sure I agree. The second game is worth more than the 1st. And a tie isn't a loss.
I expect them to go all out this week.
The only team that has a better chance beating us because of the tie is Wash - all other teams in contention have the tiebreak over us.
Daboll going for 2 against Tennessee. You are on the road against a “superior” opponent in week 1. It’s week 1! They fought all the way back, might as well just go for the win there. Oh - and the Titans still had the ball with a chance to win. So - you take your chances and go for 2.
Home against Washington in week 13, not necessarily a must win game but a game you absolutely cannot lose - he watched the offense do absolutely nothing for the previous 5 drives (the opposite of Tennessee game) and saw the 3rd and 2 play where two of our players literally ran into each other before the play even got going.
He realized in that split second that it was better to leave the stadium with a tie than risk a loss, knowing that we’ve got 5 games left and are still, yes, technically up on Commanders in the standings. He didn’t “trust” the offense to make that 4th down based on how things have gone RECENTLY. Keep in mind, against Tennessee we had some additional weapons we haven’t had mostly all season.
I really don’t think it was anything else other than that. Daboll is aggressive. That doesn’t mean he’s just gonna go for it like a lunatic on every single play like the Chargers coach.
Completely agree.
I just think the offense kinda sucks right now and he realizes it and made the call. End of story.
Quote:
If you don't trust DJ, why not start taylor then. Half the fan base hates jones. It's not like benching Eli?
Or why not let DJ "cook" and expose him and make clear how bad he is.
Either way, it makes moving on easier, and probably helps your draft position (if that is the plan)
It's the one year that the teams record won't matter.
It doesn't make sense to half ass it.
That said the coaching has been pretty shitty the last few weeks, and plain old gutless this week.
Playing for a tie, is literally playiing not to lose
I'll tell you why they don't let him rip, because they are afraid if they do, he may excel. I'm not sure Schoen doesn't want him to fail so he can tell Mara He did his due dilligence, and then can go get who he wants, is the only thing that makes sense, and I've thought it for awhile now. Is it really coincidence that AGAIN, he has fuckall for a line, no TEs, really, and nothing at WR.
I like Daboll, he's the coach of the future. Kafka is having growing pains,but I think in a few years he will be a very good OC. Schoen, while I like the culture he is building, I have my doubts about.
Have one poster actively fantasize about Jones beating NYG if he goes to the commanders and now the GM is actively sabotaging his QB
We've move beyond copium to straight snorting pure copecaine
Some of us having been saying those have ALL been issues the entire time (except the wind, nice fucking red herring).
Coaching, RB, WR, TE and OL have been a problem for Jones’s entire time. The exception was coaching, RB, OL run blocking and TE (for 7 games from Bellinger) this year - and what a shock; Jones - and more importantly, the team’s record - has been significantly better.
What a coincidence!
🙄🙄🙄🙄
Silly rabbit
I never said Jones was the guy. I never said Schoen is wrong. My point is DJ having a good season gives Schoen a headache, because like most of you, he made up his mind before the season started. I'm wrong? I don't think that I am. I think he wants to move on either way.
I never said Jones was the guy. I never said Schoen is wrong. My point is DJ having a good season gives Schoen a headache, because like most of you, he made up his mind before the season started. I'm wrong? I don't think that I am. I think he wants to move on either way.
I suppose that is possible that Schoen made up his mind before the season, but if so he ought to be fired. You make up your mind before you have the most important data you can have - how he does with the head coach you are going to have? I am fine with moving on from DJ, but it has to be based on Daboll's experience with him this year, not whatever conceptions Joe Schoen had before this year. We don't need another blasted GM who is so smart that he can decide stuff all on his own, and worse before the information is available. Since I am impressed with Schoen so far, I expect that there is an infinitesimal chance that his mind was made up preseason.
The obvious answer by the way is that he was definitey not committed to keeping him, thus no option. And he definitely was not moving on, or he would have traded him preseason. Somebody would have rolled the dice and given you something for him.
Not really, it is like reading the same book over and over again. Same arguments, different day.
Well, perhaps you are right...
I never said Jones was the guy. I never said Schoen is wrong. My point is DJ having a good season gives Schoen a headache, because like most of you, he made up his mind before the season started. I'm wrong? I don't think that I am. I think he wants to move on either way.
I think JS was just saying to Jones show me why I should keep you. It was a added a pressure to perform and I agree not going with the 5th year.
He tried to fix the OL. It just has not worked out as he planned. He said this very early when he took over as GM, that Jones has to be kept upright or something like that. Buffalo has not exactly had a top OL so regardless of Jones status ours need to be much better in the NFCE and NFC. Historically this division and conference plays a bit different imv.
Tierney (pretty high on Jones at the time) had JS on during the bye and told him you have to get a big time WR for this guy. JS agreed but said he had to fix the OL first. How it has played out we have big issues for both OL and WR.
I don't care what JS does with Jones. Just be right if you bring someone in AND protect him first and build out from there. He certainly should understand this if he learned anything at all from Parcells. Parcells has probably told him "I told you that NFCE is a little different animal".
Quote:
This is good entertainment
Not really, it is like reading the same book over and over again. Same arguments, different day.
Well, perhaps you are right...
The Schoen and Daboll sabotaging Jones is definitely a new episode
I never said Jones was the guy. I never said Schoen is wrong. My point is DJ having a good season gives Schoen a headache, because like most of you, he made up his mind before the season started. I'm wrong? I don't think that I am. I think he wants to move on either way.
You know what, I hope Schoen's mind was made up on Jones before the season started. I hope that he and Daboll had seen enough on film both in college and with the Giants to convince them that he stinks. I hope that's why Daboll is running a simplified offense that minimizes the decisions the QB has to make, and relies almost exclusively on easy throws and designed runs.
Despite the desperate pleas and an endless array of excuses from the Jones fan club, the most obvious answer to all of this is that Daniel Jones isn't very good.
The members of the Jones Fan Club are fans of Jones first and Giants second. We've already had one poster say he'd hope the Commanders would beat the Giants if Jones ended up in Washington.
That's the DJFC
Quote:
I Love "The Jones fan club" dig. Like it's somehow derogatory to be a fan of a player on a team you root for. Geezus. Some of you guys are so beyond at this point it's absurd. We get it, you don't want him as the QB. Are you going to cry and cry and cry and cry about it on 17,000 threads a day, stating the same tired points over and over and over and ov.... until he's gone? I mean seriously holy shit already.
The members of the Jones Fan Club are fans of Jones first and Giants second. We've already had one poster say he'd hope the Commanders would beat the Giants if Jones ended up in Washington.
That's the DJFC
Except for maybe one person out of how many members, that's a crock of shit.
There are Daniel Jones fans here (and on Twitter, and throughout the Giants fanbase) who openly complain about the skill level of several of DJ's teammates, and blame them for DJ's struggles, as though those players are not also Giants. Yet, if you do exactly the opposite, and offer support to DJ's teammates on offense, you're a bad fan if it means that you're casting any sort of blame in DJ's direction.
That's why some fans get the DJFC label. Because they claim that every Giants fan should root for every Giants player (that's supposedly at the core of their vehement defense of DJ), but they don't root for the players that they believe are interfering with what they hope DJ can do if everything around him is optimal.