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| Playing with training wheels In the big picture, it feels wrong to criticize Daboll since he’s wrung a 7-4-1 record out of a deeply flawed roster in his first season as a head coach. But the stakes with the offense are higher, because Jones is in a contract year. If he was in his second or third season, there would be less urgency to determine if Jones can be the long-term answer at quarterback. But the way the Giants have managed Jones this season hasn’t provided a definitive answer on his future. And even with the team’s success, it doesn’t feel like the Giants are building toward something with Jones by playing this style of offense. There was a gnawing feeling during the team’s surprising 6-1 start that its style of play wasn’t sustainable. And, as expected, opponents’ focus on Barkley has grown, and his production has decreased. Defenses also appear to have figured out some of the wrinkles that sparked the Giants’ offense early in the season, like their bootleg play-action package. The Giants are 1-3-1 in their past five games, with their lone win during that stretch against the lowly Texans. Daboll has worked wonders to get the Giants into playoff contention, but with more difficult competition ahead, there would be more optimism if it didn’t feel like Jones had been operating with training wheels all season. |
-NYG declines the 5th year option
-Schoen does not engage with Jones on a contract during the bye
-The play calling is very limited
I just don’t see him as the long term answer. Don’t understand how it’s a surprise to some.
last week the barkley touchdown was out of either 3 or 4 wide receivers and that was probably the first gap we've seen in a defense since the Texans game.
against Dallas they started the game with all passing plays on that first drive and should have had a touchdown if not for the stupid lineman downfield penalty.
i agree with duggan they need to open up the offense and see what happens, good or bad. defenses have adjusted and now they need to adjust back. against philly they are playing with house money any way because the chances of this current secondary stopping AJB and Devonta Smith are very low.
Sy's game report tells how brutal the interior was, to me that has something to do with the limited offense. And the quality of receivers too.
Alex Smith is the DJ comparison for sure, but I could see DJ on a track similar to Ryan Tannehill. Not great, but pretty good who can win games for you.
He went from Miami - with a good skillset but inconsistent including talent around him - to pretty good with a better roster.
Question becomes, is it here or somewhere else.
-NYG declines the 5th year option
-Schoen does not engage with Jones on a contract during the bye
-The play calling is very limited
I just don’t see him as the long term answer. Don’t understand how it’s a surprise to some.
the decision on his future is in the offseason. daboll talked a lot over the summer about playing unafraid to make mistakes and here they are with a QB who has one of the lowest turnover rates in the NFL and they are afraid to take any shots even though the few shots they've been taking have been effective. they have been coaching scared since the bye which regardless of what you think of jones is just a lame strategy.
rivera is down to a backup QB who throws a bunch of balls up for grabs and dan campbell's lions are QB'd by a guy who cost his prior team a first round pick to get rid of. neither is their long term answer but that doesn't mean the team can't still play aggressively.
Let Jones rip. If he fails you get a better draft pick.
If he is awesome you’re set at QB.
There’s no point in trying to squeeze a few extra wins out to make the playoffs. Dabolls not on the heat seat.
It's a shame the WR group gives little to help him on top of still OL issues. Toney, Sheppard, Wandale and Galloday sure did not work out as planned or at least hoped.
JS/BD still have to figure it out and come up with the best future whatever the decision is.
Or why not let DJ "cook" and expose him and make clear how bad he is.
Either way, it makes moving on easier, and probably helps your draft position (if that is the plan)
It's the one year that the teams record won't matter.
It doesn't make sense to half ass it.
That said the coaching has been pretty shitty the last few weeks, and plain old gutless this week.
Playing for a tie, is literally playiing not to lose
Sy's game report tells how brutal the interior was, to me that has something to do with the limited offense. And the quality of receivers too.
Alex Smith is the DJ comparison for sure, but I could see DJ on a track similar to Ryan Tannehill. Not great, but pretty good who can win games for you.
He went from Miami - with a good skillset but inconsistent including talent around him - to pretty good with a better roster.
Question becomes, is it here or somewhere else.
And of course Tannehill is not struggling to some extent, not coincidently without his best receiver.
And yes, it's very possible they've made up their minds about Jones and are including him among the "limited skill position players" group.
Or why not let DJ "cook" and expose him and make clear how bad he is.
Either way, it makes moving on easier, and probably helps your draft position (if that is the plan)
It's the one year that the teams record won't matter.
It doesn't make sense to half ass it.
There's some truth and fact to the above - of course in the end coaches want to win. It's on their resume.
But your premise is exactly why I say it's not DJ they don't trust.
Actions speak louder than words with the Giants
They're trying to evaluate Jones (and the entire roster), and they're also trying to win and reward everyone with a playoff spot (and $) for their hard work.
Couldn't agree more. We are at home against a division opponent who are eyeing up the #1 seed.
We aren't going to catch them for the divisional title (barring a miracle); and if we lose, I think there is still a pathway to 10 wins, especially if the Eagles have clinched everything in the final weekend.
Detroit is playing well, but I think they will fall short of getting to 10 wins. Seattle is a different story, but they still have the 9ers, Jets, KC and the Rams, who could be looking to play spoiler to salvage a horrible year...
So, let it rip.
I think this week will be similar. Everyone in the world thinks they're going to lose and they aren't gonna be able to keep the Eagles under 20 points.
I think they're going to completely open it up and let Jones sink or swim this week.
If Jones is given more rope and craps the bed, DJ will get the blame - not Daboll - and we can move on knowing we are making the right decision.
of course, the other potential play here is: Giants do want Jones back (at their price) and are playing it slow with him to build his confidence back up for the long run, rather than simply this season.
That's relevant because the team will likely play tight in response to the coaches' decisions in game. You could see and feel it. Should've been a "W".
Sy's game report tells how brutal the interior was, to me that has something to do with the limited offense. And the quality of receivers too.
Alex Smith is the DJ comparison for sure, but I could see DJ on a track similar to Ryan Tannehill. Not great, but pretty good who can win games for you.
He went from Miami - with a good skillset but inconsistent including talent around him - to pretty good with a better roster.
Question becomes, is it here or somewhere else.
The weaknesses in his game coming out of college are still the weaknesses in his game 4 years later. His stats this season are basically the same as they were last season. This "we can't get anyone better", "he's the bridge" and the "we haven't seen enough to know" are just another set of lifelines to the hopes and dreams of his supporters. It's pretty obvious that the coaching staff and the GM are moving on, and rightly so.
This time last year the Giants were 4-8 and wouldn't win another game. We had a complete clown as a coach. A GM that saddled us with KG and whiffed on multiple first round picks. I am not sour on Kafka or Daboll.
If this team can improve the offensive line, add talent at WR and keep improving the defense this team will remain out of the abyss and I have high hopes for that.
If you hate Jones, lose as much as possible to get your QB, or expose him so bad moving on to Tyrod in the second or third game of season wont be seen as rash decision.
That's relevant because the team will likely play tight in response to the coaches' decisions in game. You could see and feel it. Should've been a "W".
100% agree. the coaching staff's posture post-bye has toggled between stupid aggressive (adoree on punt returns) and embarrassingly conservative.
they were perfect in the first 10 weeks and that was never a realistic expectation season long, but we should reasonably expect them to progress the rest of the way instead of continued regression.
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....but more a bridge to hopefully a better option?
Sy's game report tells how brutal the interior was, to me that has something to do with the limited offense. And the quality of receivers too.
Alex Smith is the DJ comparison for sure, but I could see DJ on a track similar to Ryan Tannehill. Not great, but pretty good who can win games for you.
He went from Miami - with a good skillset but inconsistent including talent around him - to pretty good with a better roster.
Question becomes, is it here or somewhere else.
This is a misrepresenation of Tannehill's Miami tenure which included two 4000 yard seasons and three seasons in a row of 24+ TD's. He has basically been the same qb with the Titans as he was with Miami.
No wonder I liked Tannehill LOL.......I just remember people thinking he wasn't a worthy of his draft pick.
Heck, why did Miami get rid of him then? His stats are quite good, thanks for the info.
If Jones is given more rope and craps the bed, DJ will get the blame - not Daboll - and we can move on knowing we are making the right decision.
of course, the other potential play here is: Giants do want Jones back (at their price) and are playing it slow with him to build his confidence back up for the long run, rather than simply this season.
There seems to be enough context clues to suggest Jones is not in the future plans for Schoen/Daboll. However, I could see them also feeling good about Jones - to an extent - and giving Jones another prove-it year if Team Jones is willing. I don't think the latter is the best way to go, but it can't be dismissed.
But I think you nailed it with the fact that Daboll is basically Teflon here if Jones fails miserably with a longer leash. Daboll inherited Jones and spent a few years watching a great QB maximize his offense.
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was end of half and overtime game management was poor, and the decisions were painfully conservative. Not trying for a TD to end the first half, poor use of timeouts, the 4th and 3 punt, etc. Basically a reversal of the Titans game, which is a tell Daboll's coaching tight now in these difficult spots.
That's relevant because the team will likely play tight in response to the coaches' decisions in game. You could see and feel it. Should've been a "W".
100% agree. the coaching staff's posture post-bye has toggled between stupid aggressive (adoree on punt returns) and embarrassingly conservative.
they were perfect in the first 10 weeks and that was never a realistic expectation season long, but we should reasonably expect them to progress the rest of the way instead of continued regression.
Sunday was really tough to watch. My friend was going ballistic up in the stands as to why so conservative, are they not paying attention to the clock and game management, etc. Here's hoping Daboll and his game managers pull out of the tailspin, because it felt like they waved the white flag and hoped to get lucky.
And because you're going to have to score points, I'd like to see some trick plays resulting in easy scores.
We've done better at not having to literally earn EVERY yard this year, but it's still a struggle to get over that 20 point plateau.
They'll need to hit 30 to have a chance this weekend I'd project.
-NYG declines the 5th year option
-Schoen does not engage with Jones on a contract during the bye
-The play calling is very limited
I just don’t see him as the long term answer. Don’t understand how it’s a surprise to some.
I don’t think BD coached scared, it he didn’t seem to mind walking out with a tie. The last possession of the 1st half was one of the most maddening I’ve seen in years. The utter lack of urgency was bizarre.
The WRs suck, but they've been here long enough to do something other than training wheels.
The interior OL sucks but they've been here all year, the coaches should've been able to coach up SOMETHING other than training wheels.
No matter where you sit on Jones, I doubt anyone thinks he's so limited that you CAN'T do anything but training wheels. He's proven he's better than that his 1st year. He can drop back and throw from the pocket.
At this point, the coaching staff has to ask themselves why they've been working with these players for some time now and this is all they are doing. It's going to take better than that to for Daboll to succeed as a HC and Kafka an OC. Lots to prove there.
Right now, you could make an argument they started hot due to being new on the scene, and now they've been figured out. Happens all the time in the NFL. Sustained success is difficult and you have to stay ahead of the game/counterpunch when you're figured out.
This offense has regressed since the beginning of the year from a playcalling/scheme standpoint.
-NYG declines the 5th year option
-Schoen does not engage with Jones on a contract during the bye
-The play calling is very limited
I just don’t see him as the long term answer. Don’t understand how it’s a surprise to some.
Could be. IT also could be that they weren't sure last year but are open to re-signing Jones and them not talking during the bye doesn't mean much at all. The Playcalling could be due to every other untalented part of the offense not named Barkley.
I slightly lean to the former that Daboll isn't in love with DJ, but I am not 100% sold that's it. ALso, he could be NOT in love with Jones and still bring him back next year.
So many ways to look at it. VEry hard to say anything conclusive right now in my view.
See this is fine, and a perfectly valid opinion. But I really hope no one thinks Jones is so bad that they can't even think about running dropback passes, or taking training wheels off.
Roseman has not been GM since 2009. He has been in several power struggles and has had different roles and power struggles but is last man standing.
Unless they are a slam dunk - all they are going to do is shorten their tenure with the NYG.
Imagine posting the kind of crap where trolling is the least egregious explanation.
NYG this season are near the bottom in attempts but closer to average in terms of YPA.
I don't know...the biggest thing to me is supposedly no contract talks. The playcalling doesn't mean they don't want Jones back even if it does mean they don't love him.
That's relevant because the team will likely play tight in response to the coaches' decisions in game. You could see and feel it. Should've been a "W".
Yeah I agree with that Jon. It was palpable. But to the other points about how we were winning being unsustainable... it's hard for me to feel the injuries to McKinney, Jackson, Bellinger, Robinson didn't tip us the other way to losing the close games now and is also a factor in why they are coaching this way. It's not like we are being blown out. I feel just having one of Jackson or McKinney back tips that Washington game into a W.
Duggan is correct in a lot of ways. The stats pretty much show what the Giants need to do getting these games to the 4th and then winning. They were back on track the first half against WFT and still not sure of all the issues for what happened in the 2nd. Drastic difference.
This team on O is going to struggle if forced to win through the air. They have a chance to do enough when they are able to run the ball.
When they can't do this it puts even more pressure on our D that has some very important players missing that started with a serious ILB deficiency.
Like Schoen said on one of his interviews in a game they one during the bye. "We were done 17-3". Hopefully he is on top of it and has a good plan.
The poster who alluded to how different the record could be is spot on. This is the NFL.
Absolutely they have earned the right to select their guy. That being said, I do not think anyone has earned the right to overdraft a player in order to do so.
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Follow the actions. It’s been pretty clear that Jones isn’t the long term answer.
-NYG declines the 5th year option
-Schoen does not engage with Jones on a contract during the bye
-The play calling is very limited
I just don’t see him as the long term answer. Don’t understand how it’s a surprise to some.
Could be. IT also could be that they weren't sure last year but are open to re-signing Jones and them not talking during the bye doesn't mean much at all. The Playcalling could be due to every other untalented part of the offense not named Barkley.
I slightly lean to the former that Daboll isn't in love with DJ, but I am not 100% sold that's it. ALso, he could be NOT in love with Jones and still bring him back next year.
So many ways to look at it. VEry hard to say anything conclusive right now in my view.
Agreed djm. And to Sean's point, my counter is I don't understand how some are so willing to blame the QB for the offensive woes, when it's pretty clear (to me) there is no QB in the league that would do much more with what we have on that side of the ball right now.
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was end of half and overtime game management was poor, and the decisions were painfully conservative. Not trying for a TD to end the first half, poor use of timeouts, the 4th and 3 punt, etc. Basically a reversal of the Titans game, which is a tell Daboll's coaching tight now in these difficult spots.
That's relevant because the team will likely play tight in response to the coaches' decisions in game. You could see and feel it. Should've been a "W".
Yeah I agree with that Jon. It was palpable. But to the other points about how we were winning being unsustainable... it's hard for me to feel the injuries to McKinney, Jackson, Bellinger, Robinson didn't tip us the other way to losing the close games now and is also a factor in why they are coaching this way. It's not like we are being blown out. I feel just having one of Jackson or McKinney back tips that Washington game into a W.
That puts you at 8-4 still four difficult games in a row on tap, and NYG will be significant underdogs in each. I've seen little since the Houston game to suggest the Giants are going to defeat the Eagles, Vikes, and Commanders will probably be another dogfight. Maybe they finish 9-7-1 after 6-1 start, that's a pretty good indicator of unsustainable.
Sy's game report tells how brutal the interior was, to me that has something to do with the limited offense. And the quality of receivers too.
Alex Smith is the DJ comparison for sure, but I could see DJ on a track similar to Ryan Tannehill. Not great, but pretty good who can win games for you.
He went from Miami - with a good skillset but inconsistent including talent around him - to pretty good with a better roster.
Question becomes, is it here or somewhere else.
I think he's better than Smith and Tannehill, but the Tannehill comparison is a good one nonetheless.
+1
The offense is limited at WR and probably OL, to be fair. OL is better than year's past, it's professional but it's still below average in terms of run and pass blocking but maybe not that far away at all from being a good unit. Plug a guard in here, more development from Neal there and we could be on to something. But as of right now, it's certainly not a strength. WR and TE overall need not be discussed. It's severely limited and that's with Bellinger bring a nice story. HE's a keeper. No one else is at this very moment except Slayton and he's miscast as the lone wolf.
The Giants offense, based on PPG is not good, but it's not terrible. Despite major hurdles the offense is scoring 20.4 PPG. Again, is this good? No, but it's not horrible. It's 21st. And that's with nothing but Jones, Barkley and Thomas at LT.
Doesn't it stand to reason that the offense could improve 4-5-6-7 PPG while Jones is under center once again in 23, just by adding ONE WR, ONE Guard and one more year of player development/coaching? And what if they added more than just those 2 players? Not talking about Jerry Rice and Ogden here, just solid pro starting talent?
Jones has scored 20+ ppg with NOTHING here except Barkley but we cannot improve to the deep end of the NFL pool with some insanely big upgrades coming for 2-3 spots? We will have the means to do so.
Am I nuts? The guy scored points at times last year with the most dysfunctional team around him. Sees those numbers and wins improve this year with ONE, count em ONE addition in Barkley, but he can't take this offense even further in 2023?
Why not? Convince me.
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In comment 15935762 JonC said:
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was end of half and overtime game management was poor, and the decisions were painfully conservative. Not trying for a TD to end the first half, poor use of timeouts, the 4th and 3 punt, etc. Basically a reversal of the Titans game, which is a tell Daboll's coaching tight now in these difficult spots.
That's relevant because the team will likely play tight in response to the coaches' decisions in game. You could see and feel it. Should've been a "W".
Yeah I agree with that Jon. It was palpable. But to the other points about how we were winning being unsustainable... it's hard for me to feel the injuries to McKinney, Jackson, Bellinger, Robinson didn't tip us the other way to losing the close games now and is also a factor in why they are coaching this way. It's not like we are being blown out. I feel just having one of Jackson or McKinney back tips that Washington game into a W.
That puts you at 8-4 still four difficult games in a row on tap, and NYG will be significant underdogs in each. I've seen little since the Houston game to suggest the Giants are going to defeat the Eagles, Vikes, and Commanders will probably be another dogfight. Maybe they finish 9-7-1 after 6-1 start, that's a pretty good indicator of unsustainable.
For sure, I don't disagree, I just think we would have a hell of a lot better shot to sustain what we were doing without so many injuries. The loss of Shep was big. The loss of WanDale is big (due mostly to lack of any other weapons).A lot of rotation going on with the OL because of injury. And the loss of Jackson and McKinney was gigantic.
Curious to me.
Or why not let DJ "cook" and expose him and make clear how bad he is.
Either way, it makes moving on easier, and probably helps your draft position (if that is the plan)
It's the one year that the teams record won't matter.
It doesn't make sense to half ass it.
That said the coaching has been pretty shitty the last few weeks, and plain old gutless this week.
Playing for a tie, is literally playiing not to lose
The answers are right in front of you, you just don't want to admit you're wrong for calling out "bad fans" for weeks. You're answering your own questions, but don't want to see the big picture. They don't want DJ, they don't trust DJ, and they don't think DJ is a franchise QB. Maybe stats do matter? They know that if they let DJ cook...he'll lose football games.
They went into this season with Galloday, Sheppard, Toney and Wandale as the top 4.
Now when they can't run Jones faces challenges down/distances and he is working what has been a revolving door at WR that gets hard keeping track of.
If you are a D coordinator who do you fear outside?
Curious to me.
BBI was also SURE Rosen was a top QB and it was a huge mistake passing on him.
They went into this season with Galloday, Sheppard, Toney and Wandale as the top 4.
Now when they can't run Jones faces challenges down/distances and he is working what has been a revolving door at WR that gets hard keeping track of.
If you are a D coordinator who do you fear outside?
Outside?
Do you really think Jones can consistently work with an outside, boundary receiver? I sure don't. Almost all of his success as a passer are crossers over the middle, which he does pretty well, and dump offs. Tough boundary throws, especially outside the hashes, especially where placement
is critical, Jones has been pretty bad.He ain't Joe Burrow.
They don't have the personnel to get around things if they lose big here. On O they don't have the WR's and people will debate on Jones. Now on D they don't have the secondary and they may be down Williams.
You hope that matchup competes enough to get the game to the fourth. Win the turnover battle and they can go either way.
0-2-1 in the division. Evaluate that critical matchup and look how things ended up. They have three more division games. I be surprised if it does not play out again to yjod matchup.
They went into this season with Galloday, Sheppard, Toney and Wandale as the top 4.
Now when they can't run Jones faces challenges down/distances and he is working what has been a revolving door at WR that gets hard keeping track of.
If you are a D coordinator who do you fear outside?
I still think not going balls to the wall to get a WR at the trade deadline was telling.
If Schoen/Daboll really thought Jones was the long-term solution, wouldn't they have brought in more infantry? Especially in an unexpected season where the playoffs are starring you right in the face as a real possibility...
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is seeing it correctly imv.
They went into this season with Galloday, Sheppard, Toney and Wandale as the top 4.
Now when they can't run Jones faces challenges down/distances and he is working what has been a revolving door at WR that gets hard keeping track of.
If you are a D coordinator who do you fear outside?
Outside?
Do you really think Jones can consistently work with an outside, boundary receiver? I sure don't. Almost all of his success as a passer are crossers over the middle, which he does pretty well, and dump offs. Tough boundary throws, especially outside the hashes, especially where placement
is critical, Jones has been pretty bad.He ain't Joe Burrow.
This! DJ is 35th in air yards per attempt (meaning there are backups that throw the ball down the field more often). DJ not only can't make accurate throws down the field, he checks down all the time to avoid making them.
I agree the offense is limited, it's just more limited because of the interior OL and receivers more than the QB.
There's more that needs replacing/upgrading than the QB, that's my opinion, and also because there's no clear cut prospect the Giants can get their hands on.
However, that doesn't mean DJ can be the QB in 2023 and the Giants can draft a prospect somewhere.
They can do two things at once.
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but Jones is limited, most of BBI thinks he's awful and Daboll doesn't want him.
Curious to me.
BBI was also SURE Rosen was a top QB and it was a huge mistake passing on him.
The entire site banded together and concluded Rosen was a sure thing, huh?
Make sense, especially since no one seems to disagree here on their opinions of players. Especially young QBs.
Either way, Jones will only throw 40+
If they are behind. He’ll put up stats because Philly will play soft and we will all say “see, let him rip it”, but it will be fools gold
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Did you notice how much of this article reads like my responses to you yesterday? grin
I agree the offense is limited, it's just more limited because of the interior OL and receivers more than the QB.
There's more that needs replacing/upgrading than the QB, that's my opinion, and also because there's no clear cut prospect the Giants can get their hands on.
However, that doesn't mean DJ can be the QB in 2023 and the Giants can draft a prospect somewhere.
They can do two things at once.
I don't disagree, but when the rubber meats the road I want to win SBs and I don't see Jones hoisting the trophy. Agree to disagree on Jones, specifically.
Curious to me.
Some of us watch other games and can see the physical differences between players. Don't embarrass yourself by bringing up Herbert in comparison to Jones.
He's currently having his worst season to date and is still better than Jones in every way.
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is seeing it correctly imv.
They went into this season with Galloday, Sheppard, Toney and Wandale as the top 4.
Now when they can't run Jones faces challenges down/distances and he is working what has been a revolving door at WR that gets hard keeping track of.
If you are a D coordinator who do you fear outside?
I still think not going balls to the wall to get a WR at the trade deadline was telling.
If Schoen/Daboll really thought Jones was the long-term solution, wouldn't they have brought in more infantry? Especially in an unexpected season where the playoffs are starring you right in the face as a real possibility...
I agreed with his decision. I don't think it was feasible with both the finance issue and I doubt he liked giving up a high draft pick. I have not agreed with all his moves but did this one.
I agree that a legit WR would certainly have helped.
Either way, Jones will only throw 40+
If they are behind. He’ll put up stats because Philly will play soft and we will all say “see, let him rip it”, but it will be fools gold
The "method" actually has dramatically helped the D. The Giants not only were running the ball they were winning in the TOP. The key with this D is limiting how often they have to go back on the field. They did a remarkable job keeping WFT down in points. This has only become more important with Jackson and McKinney down imv.
I don't disagree, but when the rubber meats the road I want to win SBs and I don't see Jones hoisting the trophy. Agree to disagree on Jones, specifically.
That's a question I asked yesterday:
Can anyone envision Jones lifting the Lombardi? My position on Jones is clear, but I think even those members of the DJFC would have to concede you have to bend reality pretty far to make that work.
And we've been at this for four years.
Meanwhile, it didn't take more than four weeks in 2020 to have no reservations about seeing Herbert one day raising the Lombardi.
I think with QBs you just know the right one when you see him.
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In comment 15935790 JonC said:
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Did you notice how much of this article reads like my responses to you yesterday? grin
I agree the offense is limited, it's just more limited because of the interior OL and receivers more than the QB.
There's more that needs replacing/upgrading than the QB, that's my opinion, and also because there's no clear cut prospect the Giants can get their hands on.
However, that doesn't mean DJ can be the QB in 2023 and the Giants can draft a prospect somewhere.
They can do two things at once.
I don't disagree, but when the rubber meats the road I want to win SBs and I don't see Jones hoisting the trophy. Agree to disagree on Jones, specifically.
I get it, you want to find that elite QB. So do I.
I don't see one or one we can get in 2023.
And I don't think we disagree on DJ as much as you think we do. I don't think he's a Super Bowl QB either, but I think he's best for the team next year.
We are in a tough spot. Our win total was exceeded this year by quite a bit. Easily, you could make the case we were going to be a four to five win team and in position to take a QB.....that hasn't happened.
And I personally want to see the team win 2-3 more games and make the playoffs, since we've come this far.
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is seeing it correctly imv.
They went into this season with Galloday, Sheppard, Toney and Wandale as the top 4.
Now when they can't run Jones faces challenges down/distances and he is working what has been a revolving door at WR that gets hard keeping track of.
If you are a D coordinator who do you fear outside?
Outside?
Do you really think Jones can consistently work with an outside, boundary receiver? I sure don't. Almost all of his success as a passer are crossers over the middle, which he does pretty well, and dump offs. Tough boundary throws, especially outside the hashes, especially where placement
is critical, Jones has been pretty bad.He ain't Joe Burrow.
I would have liked to see him have the opportunity to clearly show it one way or the other. Recognize that I referenced Jones "panic syndrome" in his first season when in the pocket and running. So I am not sold on Jones. What I consistently say regardless of any QB is talent around them matters. If you don't have a outstanding run game you better have a upper tier WR group and functional PB Oline.
I don't deviate from this.
Curious to me.
Herbert is a stud. 32 GM's in the NFL including our own would take Herbert over Jones every single time. Please.
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but Jones is limited, most of BBI thinks he's awful and Daboll doesn't want him.
Curious to me.
Some of us watch other games and can see the physical differences between players. Don't embarrass yourself by bringing up Herbert in comparison to Jones.
He's currently having his worst season to date and is still better than Jones in every way.
Oh shut your hole
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I don't disagree, but when the rubber meats the road I want to win SBs and I don't see Jones hoisting the trophy. Agree to disagree on Jones, specifically.
That's a question I asked yesterday:
Can anyone envision Jones lifting the Lombardi? My position on Jones is clear, but I think even those members of the DJFC would have to concede you have to bend reality pretty far to make that work.
And we've been at this for four years.
Meanwhile, it didn't take more than four weeks in 2020 to have no reservations about seeing Herbert one day raising the Lombardi.
I think with QBs you just know the right one when you see him.
And yet so many have been so wrong about so many QBs, time and time again.
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but Jones is limited, most of BBI thinks he's awful and Daboll doesn't want him.
Curious to me.
Herbert has thrown for 3300 yards and 20 td's so far this season, and the Chargers are 2nd in passing attempts, 6th in passing yards and 7th in passing td's in the League this season, and despite the number of attempts 7th in int's. And for you "the receivers make all the difference" people, that is with Allen and Williams having played 13 games between them this season.
Herbert is a stud. 32 GM's in the NFL including our own would take Herbert over Jones every single time. Please.
JFC that's not the fucking point people. I merely said they have scored like 1.5 points MORE PER GAME. Points scored is the ultimate stat when it comes to offense.
I love Herbert. He's not having an excellent PPG season no matter how you fucking spin it. I didn't say he'd be traded for Jones. I am not even asking for spin. Not asking about Herbert, This is about JONES and 20.4 ppg with this roster.
That's a question I asked yesterday:
Can anyone envision Jones lifting the Lombardi? My position on Jones is clear, but I think even those members of the DJFC would have to concede you have to bend reality pretty far to make that work.
And we've been at this for four years.
Meanwhile, it didn't take more than four weeks in 2020 to have no reservations about seeing Herbert one day raising the Lombardi.
I think with QBs you just know the right one when you see him.
And yet so many have been so wrong about so many QBs, time and time again.
It is hard to find the right QB - indeed.
I think it's pretty easy, however, to spot the wrong one.
Secondly, if there were no talks, that could easily mean they simply haven't made up their minds yet on Jones, or they have decided they want him but haven't settled on what dollar amount/terms they want to offer. Meanwhile, there's no reason to get a deal done midseason, unless getting that deal done will free up cap-space necessary for the team to finish the season.
Maybe I'm alone in that, but I was impressed that Duggan picked up on it.
Giants linebacker Micah McFadden had a costly forced fumble in overtime on Sunday. With the Commanders backed up to their 2-yard line after a Thibodeaux sack, McFadden lost contain on a run by Brian Robinson. As McFadden hustled to recover, he poked the ball out of Robinson’s left arm while making a tackle from behind. The only problem was that the ball went out of bounds.
Since the clock doesn’t stop for a fumble out of bounds, the Giants were forced to use their final timeout of overtime with 1:23 remaining. Washington then ran the ball on third down, bled as much clock as possible and punted to the Giants, who started their last-gasp drive at their own 43-yard line with 28 seconds remaining.
Though defensive players are always taught to try to strip the ball, it was unfortunate that McFadden succeeded in that instance, because Robinson was going to be tackled out of bounds. That would have stopped the clock and given the Giants much more time to work with when they got the ball back.
As it played out, the Giants only had enough time to advance to Washington’s 40, and Gano’s 58-yard attempt at the buzzer fell short.
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In comment 15936027 bw in dc said:
That's a question I asked yesterday:
Can anyone envision Jones lifting the Lombardi? My position on Jones is clear, but I think even those members of the DJFC would have to concede you have to bend reality pretty far to make that work.
And we've been at this for four years.
Meanwhile, it didn't take more than four weeks in 2020 to have no reservations about seeing Herbert one day raising the Lombardi.
I think with QBs you just know the right one when you see him.
And yet so many have been so wrong about so many QBs, time and time again.
It is hard to find the right QB - indeed.
I think it's pretty easy, however, to spot the wrong one.
Yep would agree--especially the really really bad ones. It's those imperfect but winning QBs you have to be careful with...
Many were wrong about Eli and Simms but admittedly, apples and oranges.
I dont really see a clear path to a playoffs tier offense in one cycle.
I realize that 5 more ppg doesn't seem like much, but that's the difference between legitimate postseason contenders and not.
The Giants have been chasing this for years. It's not just 1-2 additions. It's health, which is consistently a problem, and relying on those likely young players to immediately be impact players. Adding a legit WR 1 doesn't seem likely. That quality isn't out there in free agency. Draft is not as WR rich as previous years but maybe there's an overnight celebrity that needs to be revealed.
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In comment 15935937 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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is seeing it correctly imv.
They went into this season with Galloday, Sheppard, Toney and Wandale as the top 4.
Now when they can't run Jones faces challenges down/distances and he is working what has been a revolving door at WR that gets hard keeping track of.
If you are a D coordinator who do you fear outside?
Outside?
Do you really think Jones can consistently work with an outside, boundary receiver? I sure don't. Almost all of his success as a passer are crossers over the middle, which he does pretty well, and dump offs. Tough boundary throws, especially outside the hashes, especially where placement
is critical, Jones has been pretty bad.He ain't Joe Burrow.
This! DJ is 35th in air yards per attempt (meaning there are backups that throw the ball down the field more often). DJ not only can't make accurate throws down the field, he checks down all the time to avoid making them.
It's not Jones' fault that Slayton slowed down and didn't catch his deep pass.
As for the offense being on training wheels, when the Giants try to pass downfield their receivers don't make plays. Is that on the QB?
The answer is no. The reason is that there's nothing on Jones's resume to suggest he's ever going to be capable of that kind of improvement even in an ideal situation - and there are no ideal situations. He's good for 19-22 points per game because that's what his skillset allows.
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can the NYG offense reach 25-26 PPG with 1-2 realistic additions and more development into 2023 IF Jones is the QB next season? And why not? They can score 20 now but not 25 next season?
I dont really see a clear path to a playoffs tier offense in one cycle.
I realize that 5 more ppg doesn't seem like much, but that's the difference between legitimate postseason contenders and not.
The Giants have been chasing this for years. It's not just 1-2 additions. It's health, which is consistently a problem, and relying on those likely young players to immediately be impact players. Adding a legit WR 1 doesn't seem likely. That quality isn't out there in free agency. Draft is not as WR rich as previous years but maybe there's an overnight celebrity that needs to be revealed.
fair points--i do think 5 PPG extra is a BIG jump, wasn't trying to diminish that.
I am honestly asking and not insisting that it can happen with Jones but I find it interesting that they are at 20+ now. But maybe they only get to 22-23 next year which aint good enough.
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In comment 15935925 djm said:
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but Jones is limited, most of BBI thinks he's awful and Daboll doesn't want him.
Curious to me.
Herbert has thrown for 3300 yards and 20 td's so far this season, and the Chargers are 2nd in passing attempts, 6th in passing yards and 7th in passing td's in the League this season, and despite the number of attempts 7th in int's. And for you "the receivers make all the difference" people, that is with Allen and Williams having played 13 games between them this season.
Herbert is a stud. 32 GM's in the NFL including our own would take Herbert over Jones every single time. Please.
JFC that's not the fucking point people. I merely said they have scored like 1.5 points MORE PER GAME. Points scored is the ultimate stat when it comes to offense.
The difference is actually 2.5 points per game, for what it's worth. I'm sure you'd want to be accurate.
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can the NYG offense reach 25-26 PPG with 1-2 realistic additions and more development into 2023 IF Jones is the QB next season? And why not? They can score 20 now but not 25 next season?
The answer is no. The reason is that there's nothing on Jones's resume to suggest he's ever going to be capable of that kind of improvement even in an ideal situation - and there are no ideal situations. He's good for 19-22 points per game because that's what his skillset allows.
No ideal situations but there sure as hell are better situations than this one. We can't field much better WRs and OL next season?
We will have better WRs next season unless this team goes full stupid in the offseason or suffers the most brutal WR luck known to man.
This isn't the same as looking to upgrade AVG WRs to an elite level, overnight, which isn't easy. We're talking about upgrading laughably bad Wrs to average or solid. That's an easy leap to take.
There's only so much you can do, before the unit has breakdowns and stuff gets blown up, esp versus a team like Philly.
I think the Giants will still play the way they have, but take more chances.
Example - third and one, play action deep for an easy score. Go for more fourth and short, eschewing FGs.
Maybe some gadget plays.
They have to hit 30 to have any chance, most likely.
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In comment 15936056 HomerJones45 said:
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In comment 15935925 djm said:
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but Jones is limited, most of BBI thinks he's awful and Daboll doesn't want him.
Curious to me.
Herbert has thrown for 3300 yards and 20 td's so far this season, and the Chargers are 2nd in passing attempts, 6th in passing yards and 7th in passing td's in the League this season, and despite the number of attempts 7th in int's. And for you "the receivers make all the difference" people, that is with Allen and Williams having played 13 games between them this season.
Herbert is a stud. 32 GM's in the NFL including our own would take Herbert over Jones every single time. Please.
JFC that's not the fucking point people. I merely said they have scored like 1.5 points MORE PER GAME. Points scored is the ultimate stat when it comes to offense.
The difference is actually 2.5 points per game, for what it's worth. I'm sure you'd want to be accurate.
Fine. And he's the most beloved QB ever. 20 more points scored.
Something tells me Herbert isn't as beloved if he's the NYG QB the last 2-3 years.
Let Jones rip. If he fails you get a better draft pick.
If he is awesome you’re set at QB.
There’s no point in trying to squeeze a few extra wins out to make the playoffs. Dabolls not on the heat seat.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
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Something tells me Herbert isn't as beloved if he's the NYG QB the last 2-3 years.
This fanbase didn't even unify around a pro bowl qb until after a championship win he led the way on.
But the reality is our fanbase is deranged and shouldn't be used in any example. We are bi-polar.
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but Jones is limited, most of BBI thinks he's awful and Daboll doesn't want him.
Curious to me.
BBI was also SURE Rosen was a top QB and it was a huge mistake passing on him.
Most on here wanted no part of Rosen. If I remember correctly it was pretty much just Milton that kept talking up Rosen at every opportunity.
You do realize that going from 20 ppg to 25 would move the Giants from 21st in the league in points to about 7-8.
So if your question is can the Giants become a top-10 offense with Jones, I think many would answer no. They have never sniffed that level of production with Jones as the QB.
And no, it is not logical to just assume Jones is a very good QB always held back by poor talent. Sam Darnold has played his whole career on shitty teams and he is a shitty QB. He'd be less shitty with better players around him, but many of us are not looking to sign a free agent QB to a new deal and hope for "less shitty."
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In comment 15935937 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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is seeing it correctly imv.
They went into this season with Galloday, Sheppard, Toney and Wandale as the top 4.
Now when they can't run Jones faces challenges down/distances and he is working what has been a revolving door at WR that gets hard keeping track of.
If you are a D coordinator who do you fear outside?
Outside?
Do you really think Jones can consistently work with an outside, boundary receiver? I sure don't. Almost all of his success as a passer are crossers over the middle, which he does pretty well, and dump offs. Tough boundary throws, especially outside the hashes, especially where placement
is critical, Jones has been pretty bad.He ain't Joe Burrow.
I would have liked to see him have the opportunity to clearly show it one way or the other. Recognize that I referenced Jones "panic syndrome" in his first season when in the pocket and running. So I am not sold on Jones. What I consistently say regardless of any QB is talent around them matters. If you don't have a outstanding run game you better have a upper tier WR group and functional PB Oline.
I don't deviate from this.
Without a doubt, Jones has had a raw deal here. But there have been enough opportunities to show what traits he possesses. There are throws he cannot make on a consistent basis. I believe the HC/OC know this so they scheme around his limitations.
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In comment 15936082 djm said:
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can the NYG offense reach 25-26 PPG with 1-2 realistic additions and more development into 2023 IF Jones is the QB next season? And why not? They can score 20 now but not 25 next season?
The answer is no. The reason is that there's nothing on Jones's resume to suggest he's ever going to be capable of that kind of improvement even in an ideal situation - and there are no ideal situations. He's good for 19-22 points per game because that's what his skillset allows.
No ideal situations but there sure as hell are better situations than this one. We can't field much better WRs and OL next season?
We will have better WRs next season unless this team goes full stupid in the offseason or suffers the most brutal WR luck known to man.
This isn't the same as looking to upgrade AVG WRs to an elite level, overnight, which isn't easy. We're talking about upgrading laughably bad Wrs to average or solid. That's an easy leap to take.
You asked a question and I gave you an answer an my reason. You’re free to disagree, but you’re not going to change my mind with appeals to your hopes and dreams for what could happen in a purely hypothetical exercise.
Expect a loss, but Philly isn't invincible. Washington ended their undefeated season and Indy took them to the brink. Not exactly the NFLs best there.
I expect Daboll to play things close again and hope for turnovers. As frustrating as it is to continually be in close games were we don't open things up (except for Wink on defense) thats been the strategy that has us at 7-4-1. Maybe we'll some more help on the interior of the line.
We can win this game, its just unlikely.
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In comment 15935925 djm said:
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but Jones is limited, most of BBI thinks he's awful and Daboll doesn't want him.
Curious to me.
BBI was also SURE Rosen was a top QB and it was a huge mistake passing on him.
Most on here wanted no part of Rosen. If I remember correctly it was pretty much just Milton that kept talking up Rosen at every opportunity.
I don't remember any clamor here for Allen. Nobody expected Rosen to be a total bust as far as ability, the knock on him was whether he was committed to going all-in on football. So those who didn't want Allen or Rosen wanted Darnold or Mayfield- how did they work out?
Or why not let DJ "cook" and expose him and make clear how bad he is.
Either way, it makes moving on easier, and probably helps your draft position (if that is the plan)
It's the one year that the teams record won't matter.
It doesn't make sense to half ass it.
That said the coaching has been pretty shitty the last few weeks, and plain old gutless this week.
Playing for a tie, is literally playiing not to lose
I like Daboll, he's the coach of the future. Kafka is having growing pains,but I think in a few years he will be a very good OC. Schoen, while I like the culture he is building, I have my doubts about.
If we weren't in the playoff hunt I think they would be more aggressive with the offense, but they are afraid of losing.
In addition Barkley is just not running like he did in the first half and it coincides with the failed contract extension.
With his injury history he certainly does not want to risk injury that will cost him his next big contract. Also he may have decided he wants to play for a team with the chance of playing in the Superbowl next year and that won't be the Giants. He most likely knows he only has a few more years left in the tank and wants to get into the Superbowl.
He can't convert 3 yards? He had barely thrown an incompletion all game and was running well.
If these guys are offensive geniuses, it's pretty sad they don't have a play ready for a 4th and 3 with the game on the line. Scheme something up that you've practiced. If not - you're unprepared. It's 3 yards.
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what Daboll and Kafka already know about Jones. Daboll's job is to maximize their chances of winning. Not prove to the public what Jones can and can't do.
He can't convert 3 yards? He had barely thrown an incompletion all game and was running well.
If these guys are offensive geniuses, it's pretty sad they don't have a play ready for a 4th and 3 with the game on the line. Scheme something up that you've practiced. If not - you're unprepared. It's 3 yards.
So wait.. now Daboll and Kafka aren't good enough coaches for Daniel Jones. How many coaches is this QB gonna get canned?
They needed to win both Washington games
I like Daboll, he's the coach of the future. Kafka is having growing pains,but I think in a few years he will be a very good OC. Schoen, while I like the culture he is building, I have my doubts about.
So I’m your mind, what’s more likely?
1) The coach and GM are conspiring against the QB
2) Daniel Jones isn’t very good
Some of you sound demented.
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We are playing 3 teams in the division in 3 weeks. We need to win for sure the 2nd Washington game. And it helps not to show much when playing the Eagles.
They needed to win both Washington games
Not sure I agree. The second game is worth more than the 1st. And a tie isn't a loss.
I expect them to go all out this week.
Nobody is good enough for Daniel Jones.
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Is good that two of the main reasons were even in playoff contention are getting sarcastically called offensive geniuses. What a fan base.
Nobody is good enough for Daniel Jones.
Daniel Jones cannot fail, he can only be failed.
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In comment 15935892 TheEvilLurker said:
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We are playing 3 teams in the division in 3 weeks. We need to win for sure the 2nd Washington game. And it helps not to show much when playing the Eagles.
They needed to win both Washington games
Not sure I agree. The second game is worth more than the 1st. And a tie isn't a loss.
I expect them to go all out this week.
The only team that has a better chance beating us because of the tie is Wash - all other teams in contention have the tiebreak over us.
Daboll going for 2 against Tennessee. You are on the road against a “superior” opponent in week 1. It’s week 1! They fought all the way back, might as well just go for the win there. Oh - and the Titans still had the ball with a chance to win. So - you take your chances and go for 2.
Home against Washington in week 13, not necessarily a must win game but a game you absolutely cannot lose - he watched the offense do absolutely nothing for the previous 5 drives (the opposite of Tennessee game) and saw the 3rd and 2 play where two of our players literally ran into each other before the play even got going.
He realized in that split second that it was better to leave the stadium with a tie than risk a loss, knowing that we’ve got 5 games left and are still, yes, technically up on Commanders in the standings. He didn’t “trust” the offense to make that 4th down based on how things have gone RECENTLY. Keep in mind, against Tennessee we had some additional weapons we haven’t had mostly all season.
I really don’t think it was anything else other than that. Daboll is aggressive. That doesn’t mean he’s just gonna go for it like a lunatic on every single play like the Chargers coach.
Completely agree.
I just think the offense kinda sucks right now and he realizes it and made the call. End of story.
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If you don't trust DJ, why not start taylor then. Half the fan base hates jones. It's not like benching Eli?
Or why not let DJ "cook" and expose him and make clear how bad he is.
Either way, it makes moving on easier, and probably helps your draft position (if that is the plan)
It's the one year that the teams record won't matter.
It doesn't make sense to half ass it.
That said the coaching has been pretty shitty the last few weeks, and plain old gutless this week.
Playing for a tie, is literally playiing not to lose
I'll tell you why they don't let him rip, because they are afraid if they do, he may excel. I'm not sure Schoen doesn't want him to fail so he can tell Mara He did his due dilligence, and then can go get who he wants, is the only thing that makes sense, and I've thought it for awhile now. Is it really coincidence that AGAIN, he has fuckall for a line, no TEs, really, and nothing at WR.
I like Daboll, he's the coach of the future. Kafka is having growing pains,but I think in a few years he will be a very good OC. Schoen, while I like the culture he is building, I have my doubts about.
Have one poster actively fantasize about Jones beating NYG if he goes to the commanders and now the GM is actively sabotaging his QB
We've move beyond copium to straight snorting pure copecaine
Some of us having been saying those have ALL been issues the entire time (except the wind, nice fucking red herring).
Coaching, RB, WR, TE and OL have been a problem for Jones’s entire time. The exception was coaching, RB, OL run blocking and TE (for 7 games from Bellinger) this year - and what a shock; Jones - and more importantly, the team’s record - has been significantly better.
What a coincidence!
🙄🙄🙄🙄
Silly rabbit
I never said Jones was the guy. I never said Schoen is wrong. My point is DJ having a good season gives Schoen a headache, because like most of you, he made up his mind before the season started. I'm wrong? I don't think that I am. I think he wants to move on either way.
I never said Jones was the guy. I never said Schoen is wrong. My point is DJ having a good season gives Schoen a headache, because like most of you, he made up his mind before the season started. I'm wrong? I don't think that I am. I think he wants to move on either way.
I suppose that is possible that Schoen made up his mind before the season, but if so he ought to be fired. You make up your mind before you have the most important data you can have - how he does with the head coach you are going to have? I am fine with moving on from DJ, but it has to be based on Daboll's experience with him this year, not whatever conceptions Joe Schoen had before this year. We don't need another blasted GM who is so smart that he can decide stuff all on his own, and worse before the information is available. Since I am impressed with Schoen so far, I expect that there is an infinitesimal chance that his mind was made up preseason.
The obvious answer by the way is that he was definitey not committed to keeping him, thus no option. And he definitely was not moving on, or he would have traded him preseason. Somebody would have rolled the dice and given you something for him.
Not really, it is like reading the same book over and over again. Same arguments, different day.
Well, perhaps you are right...
I never said Jones was the guy. I never said Schoen is wrong. My point is DJ having a good season gives Schoen a headache, because like most of you, he made up his mind before the season started. I'm wrong? I don't think that I am. I think he wants to move on either way.
I think JS was just saying to Jones show me why I should keep you. It was a added a pressure to perform and I agree not going with the 5th year.
He tried to fix the OL. It just has not worked out as he planned. He said this very early when he took over as GM, that Jones has to be kept upright or something like that. Buffalo has not exactly had a top OL so regardless of Jones status ours need to be much better in the NFCE and NFC. Historically this division and conference plays a bit different imv.
Tierney (pretty high on Jones at the time) had JS on during the bye and told him you have to get a big time WR for this guy. JS agreed but said he had to fix the OL first. How it has played out we have big issues for both OL and WR.
I don't care what JS does with Jones. Just be right if you bring someone in AND protect him first and build out from there. He certainly should understand this if he learned anything at all from Parcells. Parcells has probably told him "I told you that NFCE is a little different animal".
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This is good entertainment
Not really, it is like reading the same book over and over again. Same arguments, different day.
Well, perhaps you are right...
The Schoen and Daboll sabotaging Jones is definitely a new episode
I never said Jones was the guy. I never said Schoen is wrong. My point is DJ having a good season gives Schoen a headache, because like most of you, he made up his mind before the season started. I'm wrong? I don't think that I am. I think he wants to move on either way.
You know what, I hope Schoen's mind was made up on Jones before the season started. I hope that he and Daboll had seen enough on film both in college and with the Giants to convince them that he stinks. I hope that's why Daboll is running a simplified offense that minimizes the decisions the QB has to make, and relies almost exclusively on easy throws and designed runs.
Despite the desperate pleas and an endless array of excuses from the Jones fan club, the most obvious answer to all of this is that Daniel Jones isn't very good.
The members of the Jones Fan Club are fans of Jones first and Giants second. We've already had one poster say he'd hope the Commanders would beat the Giants if Jones ended up in Washington.
That's the DJFC
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I Love "The Jones fan club" dig. Like it's somehow derogatory to be a fan of a player on a team you root for. Geezus. Some of you guys are so beyond at this point it's absurd. We get it, you don't want him as the QB. Are you going to cry and cry and cry and cry about it on 17,000 threads a day, stating the same tired points over and over and over and ov.... until he's gone? I mean seriously holy shit already.
The members of the Jones Fan Club are fans of Jones first and Giants second. We've already had one poster say he'd hope the Commanders would beat the Giants if Jones ended up in Washington.
That's the DJFC
Except for maybe one person out of how many members, that's a crock of shit.
There are Daniel Jones fans here (and on Twitter, and throughout the Giants fanbase) who openly complain about the skill level of several of DJ's teammates, and blame them for DJ's struggles, as though those players are not also Giants. Yet, if you do exactly the opposite, and offer support to DJ's teammates on offense, you're a bad fan if it means that you're casting any sort of blame in DJ's direction.
That's why some fans get the DJFC label. Because they claim that every Giants fan should root for every Giants player (that's supposedly at the core of their vehement defense of DJ), but they don't root for the players that they believe are interfering with what they hope DJ can do if everything around him is optimal.