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| Playing with training wheels In the big picture, it feels wrong to criticize Daboll since he’s wrung a 7-4-1 record out of a deeply flawed roster in his first season as a head coach. But the stakes with the offense are higher, because Jones is in a contract year. If he was in his second or third season, there would be less urgency to determine if Jones can be the long-term answer at quarterback. But the way the Giants have managed Jones this season hasn’t provided a definitive answer on his future. And even with the team’s success, it doesn’t feel like the Giants are building toward something with Jones by playing this style of offense. There was a gnawing feeling during the team’s surprising 6-1 start that its style of play wasn’t sustainable. And, as expected, opponents’ focus on Barkley has grown, and his production has decreased. Defenses also appear to have figured out some of the wrinkles that sparked the Giants’ offense early in the season, like their bootleg play-action package. The Giants are 1-3-1 in their past five games, with their lone win during that stretch against the lowly Texans. Daboll has worked wonders to get the Giants into playoff contention, but with more difficult competition ahead, there would be more optimism if it didn’t feel like Jones had been operating with training wheels all season. |
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was end of half and overtime game management was poor, and the decisions were painfully conservative. Not trying for a TD to end the first half, poor use of timeouts, the 4th and 3 punt, etc. Basically a reversal of the Titans game, which is a tell Daboll's coaching tight now in these difficult spots.
That's relevant because the team will likely play tight in response to the coaches' decisions in game. You could see and feel it. Should've been a "W".
Yeah I agree with that Jon. It was palpable. But to the other points about how we were winning being unsustainable... it's hard for me to feel the injuries to McKinney, Jackson, Bellinger, Robinson didn't tip us the other way to losing the close games now and is also a factor in why they are coaching this way. It's not like we are being blown out. I feel just having one of Jackson or McKinney back tips that Washington game into a W.
That puts you at 8-4 still four difficult games in a row on tap, and NYG will be significant underdogs in each. I've seen little since the Houston game to suggest the Giants are going to defeat the Eagles, Vikes, and Commanders will probably be another dogfight. Maybe they finish 9-7-1 after 6-1 start, that's a pretty good indicator of unsustainable.
Sy's game report tells how brutal the interior was, to me that has something to do with the limited offense. And the quality of receivers too.
Alex Smith is the DJ comparison for sure, but I could see DJ on a track similar to Ryan Tannehill. Not great, but pretty good who can win games for you.
He went from Miami - with a good skillset but inconsistent including talent around him - to pretty good with a better roster.
Question becomes, is it here or somewhere else.
I think he's better than Smith and Tannehill, but the Tannehill comparison is a good one nonetheless.
+1
The offense is limited at WR and probably OL, to be fair. OL is better than year's past, it's professional but it's still below average in terms of run and pass blocking but maybe not that far away at all from being a good unit. Plug a guard in here, more development from Neal there and we could be on to something. But as of right now, it's certainly not a strength. WR and TE overall need not be discussed. It's severely limited and that's with Bellinger bring a nice story. HE's a keeper. No one else is at this very moment except Slayton and he's miscast as the lone wolf.
The Giants offense, based on PPG is not good, but it's not terrible. Despite major hurdles the offense is scoring 20.4 PPG. Again, is this good? No, but it's not horrible. It's 21st. And that's with nothing but Jones, Barkley and Thomas at LT.
Doesn't it stand to reason that the offense could improve 4-5-6-7 PPG while Jones is under center once again in 23, just by adding ONE WR, ONE Guard and one more year of player development/coaching? And what if they added more than just those 2 players? Not talking about Jerry Rice and Ogden here, just solid pro starting talent?
Jones has scored 20+ ppg with NOTHING here except Barkley but we cannot improve to the deep end of the NFL pool with some insanely big upgrades coming for 2-3 spots? We will have the means to do so.
Am I nuts? The guy scored points at times last year with the most dysfunctional team around him. Sees those numbers and wins improve this year with ONE, count em ONE addition in Barkley, but he can't take this offense even further in 2023?
Why not? Convince me.
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In comment 15935762 JonC said:
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was end of half and overtime game management was poor, and the decisions were painfully conservative. Not trying for a TD to end the first half, poor use of timeouts, the 4th and 3 punt, etc. Basically a reversal of the Titans game, which is a tell Daboll's coaching tight now in these difficult spots.
That's relevant because the team will likely play tight in response to the coaches' decisions in game. You could see and feel it. Should've been a "W".
Yeah I agree with that Jon. It was palpable. But to the other points about how we were winning being unsustainable... it's hard for me to feel the injuries to McKinney, Jackson, Bellinger, Robinson didn't tip us the other way to losing the close games now and is also a factor in why they are coaching this way. It's not like we are being blown out. I feel just having one of Jackson or McKinney back tips that Washington game into a W.
That puts you at 8-4 still four difficult games in a row on tap, and NYG will be significant underdogs in each. I've seen little since the Houston game to suggest the Giants are going to defeat the Eagles, Vikes, and Commanders will probably be another dogfight. Maybe they finish 9-7-1 after 6-1 start, that's a pretty good indicator of unsustainable.
For sure, I don't disagree, I just think we would have a hell of a lot better shot to sustain what we were doing without so many injuries. The loss of Shep was big. The loss of WanDale is big (due mostly to lack of any other weapons).A lot of rotation going on with the OL because of injury. And the loss of Jackson and McKinney was gigantic.
Curious to me.
Or why not let DJ "cook" and expose him and make clear how bad he is.
Either way, it makes moving on easier, and probably helps your draft position (if that is the plan)
It's the one year that the teams record won't matter.
It doesn't make sense to half ass it.
That said the coaching has been pretty shitty the last few weeks, and plain old gutless this week.
Playing for a tie, is literally playiing not to lose
The answers are right in front of you, you just don't want to admit you're wrong for calling out "bad fans" for weeks. You're answering your own questions, but don't want to see the big picture. They don't want DJ, they don't trust DJ, and they don't think DJ is a franchise QB. Maybe stats do matter? They know that if they let DJ cook...he'll lose football games.
They went into this season with Galloday, Sheppard, Toney and Wandale as the top 4.
Now when they can't run Jones faces challenges down/distances and he is working what has been a revolving door at WR that gets hard keeping track of.
If you are a D coordinator who do you fear outside?
Curious to me.
BBI was also SURE Rosen was a top QB and it was a huge mistake passing on him.
They went into this season with Galloday, Sheppard, Toney and Wandale as the top 4.
Now when they can't run Jones faces challenges down/distances and he is working what has been a revolving door at WR that gets hard keeping track of.
If you are a D coordinator who do you fear outside?
Outside?
Do you really think Jones can consistently work with an outside, boundary receiver? I sure don't. Almost all of his success as a passer are crossers over the middle, which he does pretty well, and dump offs. Tough boundary throws, especially outside the hashes, especially where placement
is critical, Jones has been pretty bad.He ain't Joe Burrow.
They don't have the personnel to get around things if they lose big here. On O they don't have the WR's and people will debate on Jones. Now on D they don't have the secondary and they may be down Williams.
You hope that matchup competes enough to get the game to the fourth. Win the turnover battle and they can go either way.
0-2-1 in the division. Evaluate that critical matchup and look how things ended up. They have three more division games. I be surprised if it does not play out again to yjod matchup.
They went into this season with Galloday, Sheppard, Toney and Wandale as the top 4.
Now when they can't run Jones faces challenges down/distances and he is working what has been a revolving door at WR that gets hard keeping track of.
If you are a D coordinator who do you fear outside?
I still think not going balls to the wall to get a WR at the trade deadline was telling.
If Schoen/Daboll really thought Jones was the long-term solution, wouldn't they have brought in more infantry? Especially in an unexpected season where the playoffs are starring you right in the face as a real possibility...
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is seeing it correctly imv.
They went into this season with Galloday, Sheppard, Toney and Wandale as the top 4.
Now when they can't run Jones faces challenges down/distances and he is working what has been a revolving door at WR that gets hard keeping track of.
If you are a D coordinator who do you fear outside?
Outside?
Do you really think Jones can consistently work with an outside, boundary receiver? I sure don't. Almost all of his success as a passer are crossers over the middle, which he does pretty well, and dump offs. Tough boundary throws, especially outside the hashes, especially where placement
is critical, Jones has been pretty bad.He ain't Joe Burrow.
This! DJ is 35th in air yards per attempt (meaning there are backups that throw the ball down the field more often). DJ not only can't make accurate throws down the field, he checks down all the time to avoid making them.
I agree the offense is limited, it's just more limited because of the interior OL and receivers more than the QB.
There's more that needs replacing/upgrading than the QB, that's my opinion, and also because there's no clear cut prospect the Giants can get their hands on.
However, that doesn't mean DJ can be the QB in 2023 and the Giants can draft a prospect somewhere.
They can do two things at once.
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but Jones is limited, most of BBI thinks he's awful and Daboll doesn't want him.
Curious to me.
BBI was also SURE Rosen was a top QB and it was a huge mistake passing on him.
The entire site banded together and concluded Rosen was a sure thing, huh?
Make sense, especially since no one seems to disagree here on their opinions of players. Especially young QBs.
Either way, Jones will only throw 40+
If they are behind. He’ll put up stats because Philly will play soft and we will all say “see, let him rip it”, but it will be fools gold
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Did you notice how much of this article reads like my responses to you yesterday? grin
I agree the offense is limited, it's just more limited because of the interior OL and receivers more than the QB.
There's more that needs replacing/upgrading than the QB, that's my opinion, and also because there's no clear cut prospect the Giants can get their hands on.
However, that doesn't mean DJ can be the QB in 2023 and the Giants can draft a prospect somewhere.
They can do two things at once.
I don't disagree, but when the rubber meats the road I want to win SBs and I don't see Jones hoisting the trophy. Agree to disagree on Jones, specifically.
Curious to me.
Some of us watch other games and can see the physical differences between players. Don't embarrass yourself by bringing up Herbert in comparison to Jones.
He's currently having his worst season to date and is still better than Jones in every way.
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is seeing it correctly imv.
They went into this season with Galloday, Sheppard, Toney and Wandale as the top 4.
Now when they can't run Jones faces challenges down/distances and he is working what has been a revolving door at WR that gets hard keeping track of.
If you are a D coordinator who do you fear outside?
I still think not going balls to the wall to get a WR at the trade deadline was telling.
If Schoen/Daboll really thought Jones was the long-term solution, wouldn't they have brought in more infantry? Especially in an unexpected season where the playoffs are starring you right in the face as a real possibility...
I agreed with his decision. I don't think it was feasible with both the finance issue and I doubt he liked giving up a high draft pick. I have not agreed with all his moves but did this one.
I agree that a legit WR would certainly have helped.
Either way, Jones will only throw 40+
If they are behind. He’ll put up stats because Philly will play soft and we will all say “see, let him rip it”, but it will be fools gold
The "method" actually has dramatically helped the D. The Giants not only were running the ball they were winning in the TOP. The key with this D is limiting how often they have to go back on the field. They did a remarkable job keeping WFT down in points. This has only become more important with Jackson and McKinney down imv.
I don't disagree, but when the rubber meats the road I want to win SBs and I don't see Jones hoisting the trophy. Agree to disagree on Jones, specifically.
That's a question I asked yesterday:
Can anyone envision Jones lifting the Lombardi? My position on Jones is clear, but I think even those members of the DJFC would have to concede you have to bend reality pretty far to make that work.
And we've been at this for four years.
Meanwhile, it didn't take more than four weeks in 2020 to have no reservations about seeing Herbert one day raising the Lombardi.
I think with QBs you just know the right one when you see him.
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In comment 15935790 JonC said:
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Did you notice how much of this article reads like my responses to you yesterday? grin
I agree the offense is limited, it's just more limited because of the interior OL and receivers more than the QB.
There's more that needs replacing/upgrading than the QB, that's my opinion, and also because there's no clear cut prospect the Giants can get their hands on.
However, that doesn't mean DJ can be the QB in 2023 and the Giants can draft a prospect somewhere.
They can do two things at once.
I don't disagree, but when the rubber meats the road I want to win SBs and I don't see Jones hoisting the trophy. Agree to disagree on Jones, specifically.
I get it, you want to find that elite QB. So do I.
I don't see one or one we can get in 2023.
And I don't think we disagree on DJ as much as you think we do. I don't think he's a Super Bowl QB either, but I think he's best for the team next year.
We are in a tough spot. Our win total was exceeded this year by quite a bit. Easily, you could make the case we were going to be a four to five win team and in position to take a QB.....that hasn't happened.
And I personally want to see the team win 2-3 more games and make the playoffs, since we've come this far.
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is seeing it correctly imv.
They went into this season with Galloday, Sheppard, Toney and Wandale as the top 4.
Now when they can't run Jones faces challenges down/distances and he is working what has been a revolving door at WR that gets hard keeping track of.
If you are a D coordinator who do you fear outside?
Outside?
Do you really think Jones can consistently work with an outside, boundary receiver? I sure don't. Almost all of his success as a passer are crossers over the middle, which he does pretty well, and dump offs. Tough boundary throws, especially outside the hashes, especially where placement
is critical, Jones has been pretty bad.He ain't Joe Burrow.
I would have liked to see him have the opportunity to clearly show it one way or the other. Recognize that I referenced Jones "panic syndrome" in his first season when in the pocket and running. So I am not sold on Jones. What I consistently say regardless of any QB is talent around them matters. If you don't have a outstanding run game you better have a upper tier WR group and functional PB Oline.
I don't deviate from this.
Curious to me.
Herbert is a stud. 32 GM's in the NFL including our own would take Herbert over Jones every single time. Please.
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but Jones is limited, most of BBI thinks he's awful and Daboll doesn't want him.
Curious to me.
Some of us watch other games and can see the physical differences between players. Don't embarrass yourself by bringing up Herbert in comparison to Jones.
He's currently having his worst season to date and is still better than Jones in every way.
Oh shut your hole
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I don't disagree, but when the rubber meats the road I want to win SBs and I don't see Jones hoisting the trophy. Agree to disagree on Jones, specifically.
That's a question I asked yesterday:
Can anyone envision Jones lifting the Lombardi? My position on Jones is clear, but I think even those members of the DJFC would have to concede you have to bend reality pretty far to make that work.
And we've been at this for four years.
Meanwhile, it didn't take more than four weeks in 2020 to have no reservations about seeing Herbert one day raising the Lombardi.
I think with QBs you just know the right one when you see him.
And yet so many have been so wrong about so many QBs, time and time again.
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but Jones is limited, most of BBI thinks he's awful and Daboll doesn't want him.
Curious to me.
Herbert has thrown for 3300 yards and 20 td's so far this season, and the Chargers are 2nd in passing attempts, 6th in passing yards and 7th in passing td's in the League this season, and despite the number of attempts 7th in int's. And for you "the receivers make all the difference" people, that is with Allen and Williams having played 13 games between them this season.
Herbert is a stud. 32 GM's in the NFL including our own would take Herbert over Jones every single time. Please.
JFC that's not the fucking point people. I merely said they have scored like 1.5 points MORE PER GAME. Points scored is the ultimate stat when it comes to offense.
I love Herbert. He's not having an excellent PPG season no matter how you fucking spin it. I didn't say he'd be traded for Jones. I am not even asking for spin. Not asking about Herbert, This is about JONES and 20.4 ppg with this roster.
That's a question I asked yesterday:
Can anyone envision Jones lifting the Lombardi? My position on Jones is clear, but I think even those members of the DJFC would have to concede you have to bend reality pretty far to make that work.
And we've been at this for four years.
Meanwhile, it didn't take more than four weeks in 2020 to have no reservations about seeing Herbert one day raising the Lombardi.
I think with QBs you just know the right one when you see him.
And yet so many have been so wrong about so many QBs, time and time again.
It is hard to find the right QB - indeed.
I think it's pretty easy, however, to spot the wrong one.
Secondly, if there were no talks, that could easily mean they simply haven't made up their minds yet on Jones, or they have decided they want him but haven't settled on what dollar amount/terms they want to offer. Meanwhile, there's no reason to get a deal done midseason, unless getting that deal done will free up cap-space necessary for the team to finish the season.
Maybe I'm alone in that, but I was impressed that Duggan picked up on it.
Giants linebacker Micah McFadden had a costly forced fumble in overtime on Sunday. With the Commanders backed up to their 2-yard line after a Thibodeaux sack, McFadden lost contain on a run by Brian Robinson. As McFadden hustled to recover, he poked the ball out of Robinson’s left arm while making a tackle from behind. The only problem was that the ball went out of bounds.
Since the clock doesn’t stop for a fumble out of bounds, the Giants were forced to use their final timeout of overtime with 1:23 remaining. Washington then ran the ball on third down, bled as much clock as possible and punted to the Giants, who started their last-gasp drive at their own 43-yard line with 28 seconds remaining.
Though defensive players are always taught to try to strip the ball, it was unfortunate that McFadden succeeded in that instance, because Robinson was going to be tackled out of bounds. That would have stopped the clock and given the Giants much more time to work with when they got the ball back.
As it played out, the Giants only had enough time to advance to Washington’s 40, and Gano’s 58-yard attempt at the buzzer fell short.
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In comment 15936027 bw in dc said:
That's a question I asked yesterday:
Can anyone envision Jones lifting the Lombardi? My position on Jones is clear, but I think even those members of the DJFC would have to concede you have to bend reality pretty far to make that work.
And we've been at this for four years.
Meanwhile, it didn't take more than four weeks in 2020 to have no reservations about seeing Herbert one day raising the Lombardi.
I think with QBs you just know the right one when you see him.
And yet so many have been so wrong about so many QBs, time and time again.
It is hard to find the right QB - indeed.
I think it's pretty easy, however, to spot the wrong one.
Yep would agree--especially the really really bad ones. It's those imperfect but winning QBs you have to be careful with...
Many were wrong about Eli and Simms but admittedly, apples and oranges.
I dont really see a clear path to a playoffs tier offense in one cycle.
I realize that 5 more ppg doesn't seem like much, but that's the difference between legitimate postseason contenders and not.
The Giants have been chasing this for years. It's not just 1-2 additions. It's health, which is consistently a problem, and relying on those likely young players to immediately be impact players. Adding a legit WR 1 doesn't seem likely. That quality isn't out there in free agency. Draft is not as WR rich as previous years but maybe there's an overnight celebrity that needs to be revealed.
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In comment 15935937 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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is seeing it correctly imv.
They went into this season with Galloday, Sheppard, Toney and Wandale as the top 4.
Now when they can't run Jones faces challenges down/distances and he is working what has been a revolving door at WR that gets hard keeping track of.
If you are a D coordinator who do you fear outside?
Outside?
Do you really think Jones can consistently work with an outside, boundary receiver? I sure don't. Almost all of his success as a passer are crossers over the middle, which he does pretty well, and dump offs. Tough boundary throws, especially outside the hashes, especially where placement
is critical, Jones has been pretty bad.He ain't Joe Burrow.
This! DJ is 35th in air yards per attempt (meaning there are backups that throw the ball down the field more often). DJ not only can't make accurate throws down the field, he checks down all the time to avoid making them.
It's not Jones' fault that Slayton slowed down and didn't catch his deep pass.
As for the offense being on training wheels, when the Giants try to pass downfield their receivers don't make plays. Is that on the QB?
The answer is no. The reason is that there's nothing on Jones's resume to suggest he's ever going to be capable of that kind of improvement even in an ideal situation - and there are no ideal situations. He's good for 19-22 points per game because that's what his skillset allows.
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can the NYG offense reach 25-26 PPG with 1-2 realistic additions and more development into 2023 IF Jones is the QB next season? And why not? They can score 20 now but not 25 next season?
I dont really see a clear path to a playoffs tier offense in one cycle.
I realize that 5 more ppg doesn't seem like much, but that's the difference between legitimate postseason contenders and not.
The Giants have been chasing this for years. It's not just 1-2 additions. It's health, which is consistently a problem, and relying on those likely young players to immediately be impact players. Adding a legit WR 1 doesn't seem likely. That quality isn't out there in free agency. Draft is not as WR rich as previous years but maybe there's an overnight celebrity that needs to be revealed.
fair points--i do think 5 PPG extra is a BIG jump, wasn't trying to diminish that.
I am honestly asking and not insisting that it can happen with Jones but I find it interesting that they are at 20+ now. But maybe they only get to 22-23 next year which aint good enough.
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In comment 15935925 djm said:
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but Jones is limited, most of BBI thinks he's awful and Daboll doesn't want him.
Curious to me.
Herbert has thrown for 3300 yards and 20 td's so far this season, and the Chargers are 2nd in passing attempts, 6th in passing yards and 7th in passing td's in the League this season, and despite the number of attempts 7th in int's. And for you "the receivers make all the difference" people, that is with Allen and Williams having played 13 games between them this season.
Herbert is a stud. 32 GM's in the NFL including our own would take Herbert over Jones every single time. Please.
JFC that's not the fucking point people. I merely said they have scored like 1.5 points MORE PER GAME. Points scored is the ultimate stat when it comes to offense.
The difference is actually 2.5 points per game, for what it's worth. I'm sure you'd want to be accurate.
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can the NYG offense reach 25-26 PPG with 1-2 realistic additions and more development into 2023 IF Jones is the QB next season? And why not? They can score 20 now but not 25 next season?
The answer is no. The reason is that there's nothing on Jones's resume to suggest he's ever going to be capable of that kind of improvement even in an ideal situation - and there are no ideal situations. He's good for 19-22 points per game because that's what his skillset allows.
No ideal situations but there sure as hell are better situations than this one. We can't field much better WRs and OL next season?
We will have better WRs next season unless this team goes full stupid in the offseason or suffers the most brutal WR luck known to man.
This isn't the same as looking to upgrade AVG WRs to an elite level, overnight, which isn't easy. We're talking about upgrading laughably bad Wrs to average or solid. That's an easy leap to take.
There's only so much you can do, before the unit has breakdowns and stuff gets blown up, esp versus a team like Philly.
I think the Giants will still play the way they have, but take more chances.
Example - third and one, play action deep for an easy score. Go for more fourth and short, eschewing FGs.
Maybe some gadget plays.
They have to hit 30 to have any chance, most likely.
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In comment 15936056 HomerJones45 said:
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In comment 15935925 djm said:
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but Jones is limited, most of BBI thinks he's awful and Daboll doesn't want him.
Curious to me.
Herbert has thrown for 3300 yards and 20 td's so far this season, and the Chargers are 2nd in passing attempts, 6th in passing yards and 7th in passing td's in the League this season, and despite the number of attempts 7th in int's. And for you "the receivers make all the difference" people, that is with Allen and Williams having played 13 games between them this season.
Herbert is a stud. 32 GM's in the NFL including our own would take Herbert over Jones every single time. Please.
JFC that's not the fucking point people. I merely said they have scored like 1.5 points MORE PER GAME. Points scored is the ultimate stat when it comes to offense.
The difference is actually 2.5 points per game, for what it's worth. I'm sure you'd want to be accurate.
Fine. And he's the most beloved QB ever. 20 more points scored.
Something tells me Herbert isn't as beloved if he's the NYG QB the last 2-3 years.
Let Jones rip. If he fails you get a better draft pick.
If he is awesome you’re set at QB.
There’s no point in trying to squeeze a few extra wins out to make the playoffs. Dabolls not on the heat seat.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
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Something tells me Herbert isn't as beloved if he's the NYG QB the last 2-3 years.
This fanbase didn't even unify around a pro bowl qb until after a championship win he led the way on.
But the reality is our fanbase is deranged and shouldn't be used in any example. We are bi-polar.