What... I say WHAT is it about this guy that is driving countless BBI threads to near-passionate insanity?
(1) He'll never be good enough to win a Super Bowl?
(2) He can't put a team on his shoulders and just win?
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
(6) He's holding the team back and they need a clean break from him?
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
(8) All of the above?
(9) None of the above?
(10) Something else?
What gives?
+1. And some sort of transitive gettlemen hate.
I think even on this board a very high percentage treat cost as a critical component to any decision on Jones. A good percentage also consider the draft and what is or not available.
Much smaller groups are "Jones is the guy 100%" or "Jones stinks under any scenario" imv.
I’d imagine most people are just anxious to find out what the Giants think, and we will soon.
I think even on this board a very high percentage treat cost as a critical component to any decision on Jones. A good percentage also consider the draft and what is or not available.
Much smaller groups are "Jones is the guy 100%" or "Jones stinks under any scenario" imv.
And it’s another silly argument. What NFL team wins the Super Bowl without having a pretty good all around roster?
It’s the dirty little secret that gets ignored. You don’t JUST need a good QB - you still have to surround him with a Championship roster.
Because I don't.
We'll see after the season is over.
I’d imagine most people are just anxious to find out what the Giants think, and we will soon.
Whatever the Giants decide, there will be people here who still will not admit they were wrong. Whether the Giants keep Jones or let him go. Their actions will be the deciding factor here... not what someone with keyboard muscles on this website thinks.
The internet in general, and not just this board, likes to work in definitives and extremes, so you only here the "He's a star with a bad cast" or "he's horrible get rid of him" takes.
I’d imagine most people are just anxious to find out what the Giants think, and we will soon.
This
Because I don't.
We'll see after the season is over.
I dunno if this question is directed to me, but my answer is pretty straight-forward: I have no idea what Joe Schoen & Brian Daboll are thinking.
(2) He can't put a team on his shoulders and just win?
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
(6) He's holding the team back and they need a clean break from him?
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
(8) All of the above?
There's no shame in being a mediocre QB. I'm sure it will serve Daniel Jones well for the next decade as a backup or lower-middle NFL starter for teams that are not Super Bowl contenders.
It's hard to find a great QB. That doesn't mean you have to settle for mediocrity and pretend it might one day be great.
2) You can't build a good team with a mediocre/bad QB. This is important. Other positions you can. A mediocre player like Slayton, a bad player like Crowder - you want to upgrade, but they could be on winning team in some capacity. Starting QB that is not the case. There's only 1 and who that 1 is is massively important to the future of the team
He is not under contract. A lot of people have compared Jones to Ryan Tannehill. Tannehill received a 4 year deal for $118M ($29.5M APY).
So, would you sign Jones to the Tannehill contract? That’s the debate here. Giants have a QB need whether it’s resigning Jones, drafting someone or trading/signing someone else.
No QB will be perfect and football is the ultimate team sport.
I would be more concerned that our offense as a whole doesn't produce enough explosive plays. That is not all on the QB.
Jones has a great temperment. He has a great work ethic. His teammates seem to love him. He has stayed relatively healthy this year. He has improved his ball security. I would like to see a little more pocket awareness.
I think he should be signed to a multi year deal. Flame away .
2) You can't build a good team with a mediocre/bad QB. This is important. Other positions you can. A mediocre player like Slayton, a bad player like Crowder - you want to upgrade, but they could be on winning team in some capacity. Starting QB that is not the case. There's only 1 and who that 1 is is massively important to the future of the team
I follow everything you're saying thing here, but I'm confused over one detail: Are you saying Daniel Jones is a mediocre player, or a mediocre/bad player?
I mean I watched Brady score 2 TDs (3 really as one was called back for a penalty) late in the 4th Quarter to win a game and all I could think to myself is that Daniel Jones just cant do that
Acting like “BBI” is a monolithic entity that agrees on anything is ridiculous.
I mean I watched Brady score 2 TDs (3 really as one was called back for a penalty) late in the 4th Quarter to win a game and all I could think to myself is that Daniel Jones just cant do that
I wouldn’t say he can’t do that. Shit he had the commanders game almost won twice. Once negated by a penalty and again with Slayton dropping a deep pass
Whether Jones is mediocre or bad depends on what you're trying to do as a team and what his role is.
If you are trying to compete at the highest levels, he's bad. He will not allow you to do that.
If you're just chilling for a season or trying to chase the 7 seed, he's mediocre- he can do a job there, but not do it particularly well.
If you view him as a backup QB, he's quite good for that role.
He is not under contract. A lot of people have compared Jones to Ryan Tannehill. Tannehill received a 4 year deal for $118M ($29.5M APY).
So, would you sign Jones to the Tannehill contract? That’s the debate here. Giants have a QB need whether it’s resigning Jones, drafting someone or trading/signing someone else.
Sean -- am I correct then in saying that:
(a) Daniel Jones is Free Agent;
(b) He is not worth the money he may command on the open market; ergo,
(c) He ain't worth that, so you want to start with a fresh, new QB?
Have I got that right?
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looks good to me
I mean I watched Brady score 2 TDs (3 really as one was called back for a penalty) late in the 4th Quarter to win a game and all I could think to myself is that Daniel Jones just cant do that
I wouldn’t say he can’t do that. Shit he had the commanders game almost won twice. Once negated by a penalty and again with Slayton dropping a deep pass
yeah i get it, he also had the entire 4th Quarter to make it a 2 score game. I just don't have faith in this guy.
A better GM, a better HC and coaching staff, and better players has allowed Jones to have better production than Eli did. Acknowledging that the Giants still aren’t a good team but there is hope, Jones should continue to improve and the team will be better in 2023 than it is in 2022, and better in 2024 than it will be in 2023.
Sorry for the optimism.
The issue here as I see it is do we feel that DJ is worth investing a shit ton of money in when we have myriad holes on this roster that require immediate attention? At the same time you have Schoen and Dabs and you have to wonder if DJ is the type of player they want at QB for their system. I can't possibly see us investing a ton of valuable money into DJ when his play is often uninspiring and underwhelming. As others have said do we ever see Jones elevating the play of those around him?
In today's NFL to succeed as an NFL QB you have to make plays through the air. More often than not DJ throws check downs and looks to make plays with his legs.
It's a sad, frustrating situation. DJ is good but not great. And honestly not worth the money it would take to retain him. Not when we have so many holes to fill on this roster.
For example he's equivalent in quality to a guy like Taylor Heineke, but I vastly prefer watching the way that Heinecke plays.
That is just my personal preference as a consumer among QBs in the same tier and not a real point as it relates to team building though.
If you go the route of drafting a QB in round 1 this year and have Tyrod as the vet and re-sign Barkley and let Jones walk is the other option. Am I wrong?
Is there another vet somebody wants?
Why wouldn’t there be tons of threads about him?
Aside from QB, it is the best roster in the league.
Like...ok, sure let's build the best roster in the league with studs at almost every position. But maybe we can apply that mentality to the most important position on the field too?
This will drive people totally fucking bonkers.
Good times.
You guarantee it?
Tell you what, since you're guaranteeing it, if DJ signs elsewhere, you go be a fan of that team and leave BBI behind.
Feels like a win/win.
This will drive people totally fucking bonkers.
Good times.
If DJ is worth keeping, why would he sign a one or two year deal? If the FA QB market is as barren as you say, why would that be his best offer?
I am pretty pro DJ, think he is a legit NFL starter, but don't ever expect him to be top 5 and probably not top 10. Given that good QBs last roughly 10 years (it is probably longer) you can expect a top 5 guy to come out once in a blue moon and a top 10 guy a little more frequently. Say 2 to 3 times a decade for a top 5 guy and twice that for a top 10 guy.
I have respect for every opinion from Got have him at most any price (although not Kyler Murray money that is dumb),to only want him is he is cheap (which he won't be). I have no respect for people who insist he is not an NFL starter. They just aren't watching football. Put Jalen Hurts here and Daniel Jones in Philly and the results are not meaningfully different. With Philly's roster DJ would be a superbowl contender.
Jones had some kind of record Jersey sales after his first game. People are just near sighted , give in to immediate gratification and stubborn.
I was not around here for Eli but was it like this when Eli was here? It probably is the same as the Degrom thread. After awhile these people just want something new like they are buying a new set of clothes or something because it is more exciting that wearing the same old thing.
As for Jimmy G. He is a much better QB. I have seen him play very well on nationally tv games this year on SNF. He never threw a stupid pick like ESPN "analysts" predict he will. He threw for like 300 yards and 3 TDs and dominated with a win. When was the last time Jones did that?
The jones crew will start citing the better supporting cast , but look at it another way: What would Jones look like if were playing on the Carolina Panthers?
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(1) He'll never be good enough to win a Super Bowl?
(2) He can't put a team on his shoulders and just win?
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
(6) He's holding the team back and they need a clean break from him?
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
(8) All of the above?
There's no shame in being a mediocre QB. I'm sure it will serve Daniel Jones well for the next decade as a backup or lower-middle NFL starter for teams that are not Super Bowl contenders.
It's hard to find a great QB. That doesn't mean you have to settle for mediocrity and pretend it might one day be great.
A few responses to your remarks:
"There's no shame in being a mediocre QB."
For sure. Middle of the pack probably describes the highest number of starting NFL QBs. Very few starters are truly "elite" and very few are truly "horrible."
"I'm sure it will serve Daniel Jones well for the next decade as a backup or lower-middle NFL starter for teams that are not Super Bowl contenders."
So far, Daniel Jones has been a starting NFL QB and neither you nor I know whether his future will be as a starter or a back-up. But given that there are several current starting QBs who are worse than Daniel Jones, I think it's a pretty good bet he'll be a starter somewhere.
Right now, I would not classify Daniel Jones as "lower-middle" tier. He is probably right about smack in the middle. Lastly, do you really know what level of a team Daniel Jones might play for in the future? Are you certain it would never be a Super Bowl contender? Or is that just an opinion?
"It's hard to find a great QB. That doesn't mean you have to settle for mediocrity and pretend it might one day be great."
I agree with this statement in general, save for one little detail. No one on BBI is saying that Daniel Jones will one day be a "great" QB. I'm sure there are countless threads where posters have said he could be good/very good/solid, or something like that. But a "great QB?" Have you got examples of that?
IMO a combination of things:
1. More than anything else we've been bad for a long time.
2. Passionate opinionated fans who fancy themselves 'students of the game' if not downright experts, want answers.
3. There is compelling evidence for and against Jones.
4. People who are dug in have a hard time being open to evidence that contradicts their opinion.
5. Feelings get hurt on the internet and grudges are held.
6. The quarterback is ALWAYS a lightning rod. We've booed hall of fame calibre QBs.
Question: Is the current Giants team a "solid" one, or something worse than solid?
I think the answer is because people want DJ to be the next Eli Manning. A goofy, seemingly good guy who works hard, has a bit of an underdog air to him, and is going to pop out of nowhere to win multiple SBs.
On the other hand there are qualities in DJ that are promising and my personal opinion is that I would like to give him every chance with a competent coaching staff and a good supporting cast to see if he can show that kind of manningesque magic.
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of those questions. I would like him back at a very reasonable price. However, I find it unlikely he re-signs for the $15M I am thinking of. I wouldn't pay $25M-$35M to try to find out what he can do with an improving roster and coaching staff. That's money for an established star.
You're right, he's not signing for $15. Any offer he gets is going to be short term under $10 a year. That's the going rate for journeyman replacement level qb's which is what he is. He is more Case Keenum than Tannehill. Tannehill is a much better passer and was in Miami as well.
In league full of men who most fans have little in common with, Jones looks like:
1) the guy they want to be
2) the guy they want their son to be
3) the guy they want their daughter to bring home
Greg, I think some fans root for Jones not just as the quarterback of the Giants, but also because they like the way he carries himself and find him easy to root for.
Other fans are more indifferent outside of rooting for him as a quarterback of their favorite football team, which is fine. I think these fans probably have the more accurate view, since their biases may be at a minimum. They are mostly concerned with the Giants having a quarterback that gives the team the best chance at winning another title.
Then there seems to be another group divided on Jones that treat conversations about Jones as some sort of competition to see who is smarter. Since competition is involved, neither the pro or against crowd will consider changing their POV, at least out loud.
The issue here as I see it is do we feel that DJ is worth investing a shit ton of money in when we have myriad holes on this roster that require immediate attention? At the same time you have Schoen and Dabs and you have to wonder if DJ is the type of player they want at QB for their system. I can't possibly see us investing a ton of valuable money into DJ when his play is often uninspiring and underwhelming. As others have said do we ever see Jones elevating the play of those around him?
In today's NFL to succeed as an NFL QB you have to make plays through the air. More often than not DJ throws check downs and looks to make plays with his legs.
It's a sad, frustrating situation. DJ is good but not great. And honestly not worth the money it would take to retain him. Not when we have so many holes to fill on this roster.
Brother, your post is spot on. I think you nailed it!
No problem.
I literally facepalmed when his name was announced but giving credit where credit is due, he has outplayed Baker Mayfield and Josh Rosen, and he's one of the Giants' few playmakers on offense. He's not Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson, but he's pretty good and seems to still be improving. If he had some playmaking receivers, he'd look even better. His ceiling may be too low, though. There may not be enough "there" there.
If good QBs last 10 years, that means Jones is half way through is timeline without showing he can be a consistently good QB. Not many QBs suddenly show that in year 5.
"I'm sure it will serve Daniel Jones well for the next decade as a backup or lower-middle NFL starter for teams that are not Super Bowl contenders."
So far, Daniel Jones has been a starting NFL QB and neither you nor I know whether his future will be as a starter or a back-up. But given that there are several current starting QBs who are worse than Daniel Jones, I think it's a pretty good bet he'll be a starter somewhere.
Right now, I would not classify Daniel Jones as "lower-middle" tier. He is probably right about smack in the middle. Lastly, do you really know what level of a team Daniel Jones might play for in the future? Are you certain it would never be a Super Bowl contender? Or is that just an opinion?
These are all just opinions and speculation regarding his future. Ask all the questions you want that cannot be definitively answered, it's all just opinions. My opinion is that if Daniel Jones is a starting QB for your team, you are not going to be a factor in the playoffs, even if you happen to get there.
For the record, here's where Daniel Jones ranks in a variety of QB categories:
Y/A: 22nd
TDs: 24th
Rating: 17th
QBR: 16th
Comp %: 14th
Yards/Game: 28th
As I said, lower middle.
I agree with this statement in general, save for one little detail. No one on BBI is saying that Daniel Jones will one day be a "great" QB. I'm sure there are countless threads where posters have said he could be good/very good/solid, or something like that. But a "great QB?" Have you got examples of that?
There are people here who are on record saying they are fine if the Giants pay Daniel Jones $25-30 million per year, or more. The implication could not be more clear there.
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locked in their opinions the night he was drafted.
Yeah, there's something to this. Sy's so-so draft evaluation and the idea that he was "overdrafted" meant some people had their knives out for him before he arrived. There was a brief honeymoon in the "Danny Dimes" era but then came the fumbles — and the Joe Judge regime made everyone look bad. The people who didn't like where he was drafted felt vindicated.
I literally facepalmed when his name was announced but giving credit where credit is due, he has outplayed Baker Mayfield and Josh Rosen, and he's one of the Giants' few playmakers on offense. He's not Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson, but he's pretty good and seems to still be improving. If he had some playmaking receivers, he'd look even better. His ceiling may be too low, though. There may not be enough "there" there.
The issue here as I see it is do we feel that DJ is worth investing a shit ton of money in when we have myriad holes on this roster that require immediate attention? At the same time you have Schoen and Dabs and you have to wonder if DJ is the type of player they want at QB for their system. I can't possibly see us investing a ton of valuable money into DJ when his play is often uninspiring and underwhelming. As others have said do we ever see Jones elevating the play of those around him?
In today's NFL to succeed as an NFL QB you have to make plays through the air. More often than not DJ throws check downs and looks to make plays with his legs.
It's a sad, frustrating situation. DJ is good but not great. And honestly not worth the money it would take to retain him. Not when we have so many holes to fill on this roster.
Help me out with this statement:
"It's a sad, frustrating situation. DJ is good but not great. And honestly not worth the money it would take to retain him. Not when we have so many holes to fill on this roster."
If Daniel Jones is not worth the money it would take to retain him, what you are saying -- in essence -- is that some NFL team will pay him that kind of money. So, why would it be worth it for some other team, but not the Giants? Are you implying that the team that does sign him for fairly big bucks will be a team that has a great salary cap situation and has solid players across the roster?
This was my thought as well. I'd say most of the people on BBI who are over Jones are pretty level-headed posters who are mostly waiting for the hammer to drop in the offseason. If he loses, there's not nearly as much chest thumping as there is if the Giants win.
I think what he's saying amounts to "let someone else overpay Daniel Jones". Just because someone is going to give him that money doesn't mean it has to be the Giants.
The Giants have been bad to mediocre for about a decade now, and during that time we've only really seen just two QB's start for the team - Eli and Jones.
It is very abnormal for a team to commit to a QB for that long (3+ seasons) without them consistently competing for a championship. Whereas most other teams just move on to someone else, regardless of the risk, the Giants have now done it twice in a row - and I think that's really messing with people's minds as they form opinions about Jones.
...so when your team has been bad for this long you either hold out hope that the QB can be the "savior" under the right circumstances, or assign most of the blame for the team's failures to that QB. Again, most other teams don't keep a QB around long enough to get to that point.
Same could be said of the team's 2nd CB, ILB, IOL.
QB is more important than those spots, but the team still needs those spots filled.
My point is, don't reach. Manage the cap and continue to build where/when the best opportunity to improve presents itself.
Agree on all counts!
When we watch Jones and Heinicke on the same field, is there a massive difference between the two? If the answer is supporting cast, well just bring in the cheaper QB (Heinicke) and beef up the supporting cast.
I like that option better than signing Jones at let’s say $22M and then beefing up the supporting cast.
Elite QB’s don’t need everything perfect around them.
Again, great discussion MS!
He’s already reached that win total this year and he’s done that with awful skill players round him. Combine that with all the injuries and this is less than a solid team that he has lead to possibly a winning season
Do we know that if he does, that he will be cheaper than DJ?
So who are the FA's? Putting aside Brady and Lamar:
Jimmy G
Brisset
Geno
Bridgwater
Heinike
Not a very inspiring list. IMO Jones is better than Bridgeater/Heinike/Brisset, and in the same ballpark as Jimmy and Geno (based on his current season). I think if Jimmy G was on the Giants he would have far lower stats, and if Jones was on the 49ers he would have better stats. This is the meaning of a middling QB, they manage games and their stats are very dependent on the talent around them.
So the decision for next season (and likely the following) is do you sign the cheaper of Jimmy G and Jones, or roll with Tyrod. In parallel, in either scenario, you actively try to draft a young QB and hope to win the lottery. This is its own discussion obviously because we have other needs too.
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Jones is a serviceable QB that will get you 6 to 8 wins on a solid team. He isn’t going to elevate a bad team, and won’t take an average team to contention. He really isn’t worth the going rate for a QB on a second contract. Our best bet is going to draft and resetting the the contract to the rookie wage scale.
He’s already reached that win total this year and he’s done that with awful skill players round him. Combine that with all the injuries and this is less than a solid team that he has lead to possibly a winning season
This is why I don't use wins as in the evaluation.
The Giants have won 7 games because they've allowed: 20, 16, 12, 22, 20, 17, and 16 points in those games.
He may turn out like a Moriota or a Tannehill or Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson or a Kerry Collins.
Can he ever be an Eli Manning? I am guessing no but many thought Eli was a bum even during the 2007 season.
We finally seem to have competency in our front office and in our coaching staff. Some young player are starting to become stars in Dex, Love, Thomas. We have a good young nucleus and lots of cap space next year plus a shit ton of players returning from injury next year.
Moving on from Jones could set this team back. Same with Barkley. They are arguably our 2 best offensive players right now.
It comes down to what are you going to do if you don't keep Jones.
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locked in their opinions the night he was drafted.
Yeah, there's something to this. Sy's so-so draft evaluation and the idea that he was "overdrafted" meant some people had their knives out for him before he arrived. There was a brief honeymoon in the "Danny Dimes" era but then came the fumbles — and the Joe Judge regime made everyone look bad. The people who didn't like where he was drafted felt vindicated.
I literally facepalmed when his name was announced but giving credit where credit is due, he has outplayed Baker Mayfield and Josh Rosen, and he's one of the Giants' few playmakers on offense. He's not Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson, but he's pretty good and seems to still be improving. If he had some playmaking receivers, he'd look even better. His ceiling may be too low, though. There may not be enough "there" there.
He’s tough as nails both physically and mentally, works his ass off, and is definitely a leader. He’s going to be a stone cold killer under Daboll. Book it.
Mayfield sucks, Stefanski is a solid offensive minded coach and he gave up on Mayfield. Speaks volumes.
Also he's the starting QB of the New York Giants and you're on a Giants website. Not that hard to believe there will be a large amount of threads about him. Quit acting so surprised.
He's shown that if you design a simple hyper-conservative offense and give him clear instructions not to screw up that he can follow those instructions and not screw up.
That, combined with his Jesus-like personality, Da Vinci-esque work ethic, and his running ability makes him highly valuable as a backup QB on a good team and a useful placeholder for a team that is looking for a starter.
So who are the FA's? Putting aside Brady and Lamar:
Jimmy G
Brisset
Geno
Bridgwater
Heinike
Not a very inspiring list. IMO Jones is better than Bridgeater/Heinike/Brisset, and in the same ballpark as Jimmy and Geno (based on his current season). I think if Jimmy G was on the Giants he would have far lower stats, and if Jones was on the 49ers he would have better stats. This is the meaning of a middling QB, they manage games and their stats are very dependent on the talent around them.
So the decision for next season (and likely the following) is do you sign the cheaper of Jimmy G and Jones, or roll with Tyrod. In parallel, in either scenario, you actively try to draft a young QB and hope to win the lottery. This is its own discussion obviously because we have other needs too.
There are lot of ways for management to play this while they build a team.
Except he's not on the team going forward as of right now.
How much are you signing him for and for long? How much will that impact your ability to go get him those receivers?
It might not be DJ's fault, but his cheap years were wasted. I have no interest in paying full price for a continued evaluation period, and that's all this would be.
(2) He can't put a team on his shoulders and just win?
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
(6) He's holding the team back and they need a clean break from him?
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
(8) All of the above?
(9) None of the above?
(10) Something else?
What gives?
(1) He'll never be good enough to win a Super Bowl?
Trent Dilfer. Brad Johnson. Mark Rypien.
(2) He can't put a team on his shoulders and just win?
That's a myth these days. Even Mahommes showed in his last Superbowl that even with all his magic he could not overcome a shitty OL.
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
His picks and fumbles are way down since Daboll took over.
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
That's a popular opinion, but it there's no evidence to support that he will never improve. He's never had a decent protection, or any consistent, reliable, starting calibre targets to throw to. Not to mention, this is the 3rd or 4th offenses he's had to learn.
(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
I think SOME of the hate is because of this. Some people will never get over that unless he starts putting up passing numbers.
(6) He's holding the team back and they need a clean break from him?
On the contrary, he's been a huge part of the games they've won this year. And has led 5(I think) come-from-behind victories this year. He's the best skill player on the offense other than Barkley who gets stuffed a LOT. His play translates to wins a LOT more than Barkley's.
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
Then who do they play next year? Tyrod Taylor? What FA QB can you get who's not at the end of the road?
They've won too many games to be in a position to draft the next guy this year. If you give away a ton of picks to move up, you can't fix the problems that's holding the offense back under Jones (and Eli's last years, for that matter). So a rookie would fare better with the same problems? Sub-par interior OL, and no #1, #2, #3 WRs.
Tag Jones for next year. As for the money, a QB costs what a QB costs. The Giants have cap space next season. Fix the glaring holes and see how he does. He'll either thrive, or be the bridge to the next guy.
(8) All of the above?
(9) None of the above?
(10) Something else?
The issue a lot of people have with Jones is that he may never be a top-5 guy. FWIW, Kerry Collins wasn't a top-5 guy. Outside of Giants fans, most people don't think Eli and Simms were top-5 guys. (I completely disagree).
Neither is Kirk Cousins or Ryan Tannehill. But you CAN win with these guys, and they can hold down the fort for a while until you're in a position to upgrade. Jones can be AT LEAST that. Fix the problems around him, and you may be pleasantly surprised.
If he gets to FA after the season I expect him to be signed by a QB hungry team in the neighborhood of $25-$30 million a year.
Then the question becomes what does Schoen and Daboll do at the QB position?
IMV, the 2023 QB draft is not that great. I think Young is the best QB in the draft but he is small.
Will Levis and Anthony Richardson have accuracy and terrible decisions making issues.
Don’t know what we do roll with Tyron???
-Jones will sign a short term low aav contract
Both of those options cannot be true at the same time. I also don't believe Jones and his camp would agree to being the bridge to his owj replacement. So JS is really left with commiting to him long term or letting him walk. This 1-3yr $15-20M/yr contract range many seem to want to sign him to is unrealistic
The issue here as I see it is do we feel that DJ is worth investing a shit ton of money in when we have myriad holes on this roster that require immediate attention? At the same time you have Schoen and Dabs and you have to wonder if DJ is the type of player they want at QB for their system. I can't possibly see us investing a ton of valuable money into DJ when his play is often uninspiring and underwhelming. As others have said do we ever see Jones elevating the play of those around him?
In today's NFL to succeed as an NFL QB you have to make plays through the air. More often than not DJ throws check downs and looks to make plays with his legs.
It's a sad, frustrating situation. DJ is good but not great. And honestly not worth the money it would take to retain him. Not when we have so many holes to fill on this roster.
Bold -- this is a good post -- I would add the following. When he does take off with his legs, he has good speed and long legs, but he looks gawky/awkward, and this has digressed from the beginning of the season to now making me very, very uneasy about what's going to be the result of his run.
Also I think his throws look awkward too. He is very often not leading runners to enhance YAC. He's become more like the Garrett coached put it on a spot and move to the next play passer, instead of looking to make a play in stride with the receiver's legs.
Every game looks the same, the difference being on whether his legs and/or Saquon's legs can carry the offense, but the low scoring, lack of sustained drives, and now the turnovers have been happening with more regularity. The awkwardness has increased and is translating to the rest of the offense. I have lost my confidence that this is going anywhere and that the guy can be anything more than just average.
This pretty much supports my point though. Before this season most wouldn't have even put Geno in Jones category. However as a "game manager, middle of the pack" guy he is just a cog in the offense and greatly affected by his surrounding players. Give him Metcalf, Lofton, a strong running game, and all of a sudden his stats increase. Before this season his stats were lower. Did he suddenly figure it out, no he just got better players around him. I would say the exact thing about other guys like Tannehill and Goff. Are they good or average, it depends who is around them. Look at Wilson, he looked completely different on Seattle (where Geno is now lighting it up) vs Denver (crap).
There are realistically only maybe 6 or so QB's who can lead a team and play at a high level no matter what. The remainders are Jones/Tannehill/Goff/Carr/etc/etc. These guys can win depending on how good the players around them are, and their stats will vary based on that. Jones would be throwing for more yards on other teams, just like Geno would be throwing for less on the Giants
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He’s not in the same conversation as Geno. If we’re taking full careers into the picture then yes.
This pretty much supports my point though. Before this season most wouldn't have even put Geno in Jones category. However as a "game manager, middle of the pack" guy he is just a cog in the offense and greatly affected by his surrounding players. Give him Metcalf, Lofton, a strong running game, and all of a sudden his stats increase. Before this season his stats were lower. Did he suddenly figure it out, no he just got better players around him. I would say the exact thing about other guys like Tannehill and Goff. Are they good or average, it depends who is around them. Look at Wilson, he looked completely different on Seattle (where Geno is now lighting it up) vs Denver (crap).
There are realistically only maybe 6 or so QB's who can lead a team and play at a high level no matter what. The remainders are Jones/Tannehill/Goff/Carr/etc/etc. These guys can win depending on how good the players around them are, and their stats will vary based on that. Jones would be throwing for more yards on other teams, just like Geno would be throwing for less on the Giants
The biggest problem with this assessment is that it is conjecture. Me personally, at this point I'd rather build the talent on the team and not heavily invest in conjecture.
There are plenty of examples of average QBs who have talent around them and who still can't get to where we would want them to go. So if you invest money in Jones, at the expense of other talent on the team, and that is the result, you are investing in years more of agony.
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He finally has a good HC and OC to work with. Go get him a couple of receivers and let’s move forward.
Except he's not on the team going forward as of right now.
How much are you signing him for and for long? How much will that impact your ability to go get him those receivers?
It might not be DJ's fault, but his cheap years were wasted. I have no interest in paying full price for a continued evaluation period, and that's all this would be.
That’s the tricky part. At this point I wish they would have picked up his 5th year option. Could of tagged Barkley and watched how both perform with another draft class that presumably brings a talent infusion to the offense.
If they can get Jones signed to a 3 year deal without breaking the bank I’d probably do it. How he closes out the season will be key in terms of price. I’m just concerned they will enter the QB abyss and struggle to find a better option in the draft.
This sword cuts both ways, positive and negative.
Decision is going to be made largely blind, like it or not.
I know that as a fan of both teams, I would love to see what DJ could do with the Jets offense using his legs to move the chains if need be or to create some relatively easy red zone 7s.
There might be some other reasons,but if you were to conduct a survey,the lies might tell you that.
I am agreeing, read my post again. Thats my point, a lot of these guys are the same and dependent on the surrounding talent. So it really doesn't matter much if we had Geno, Jones, Jimmy G, or whoever. We would still need a much better team around them. So just take the best deal.
(1) He'll never be good enough to win a Super Bowl?
Trent Dilfer. Brad Johnson. Mark Rypien.
The existence of exceptions doesn't prove that Jones can ever reach that level.
His picks and fumbles are way down since Daboll took over.
He's still slow to process and has a long-ish delivery.
That's a popular opinion, but it there's no evidence to support that he will never improve. He's never had a decent protection, or any consistent, reliable, starting calibre targets to throw to. Not to mention, this is the 3rd or 4th offenses he's had to learn.
Those are excuses, not evidence.
I think SOME of the hate is because of this. Some people will never get over that unless he starts putting up passing numbers.
Yes, he's held to the standard of his draft position, but what's more important going forward is how much he's actually worth as a player.
Then who do they play next year? Tyrod Taylor? What FA QB can you get who's not at the end of the road?
Sure. Why not? Tyrod Taylor is a perfectly adequate QB who can hold down the fort for a year while the Giants spend their money elsewhere to build up the roster.
This sword cuts both ways, positive and negative.
Decision is going to be made largely blind, like it or not.
I know that as a fan of both teams, I would love to see what DJ could do with the Jets offense using his legs to move the chains if need be or to create some relatively easy red zone 7s.
this is all very true -- so how far would you go to invest in the last paragraph?
Moving on from Jones could set this team back. Same with Barkley. They are arguably our 2 best offensive players right now.
It comes down to what are you going to do if you don't keep Jones.
I trust this regime to draft guys who'll develop, but any developmental prospect is a crapshoot. You hope you're drafting Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes, but sometimes you get Baker Mayfield or Josh Rosen instead. (Both may still have time to revive their careers, but you get the idea.)
Sure. Why not? Tyrod Taylor is a perfectly adequate QB who can hold down the fort for a year while the Giants spend their money elsewhere to build up the roster.
Hopefully Taylor can make it three plays next year. Less turnovers and getting crippled running for you life behind crappy talent would be nice too.
There are two middle groups - one that debates whether or not Jones is good enough to invest a large contract on and another that feels there hasn't been enough reliable info to properly assess. Tons of merit to discuss both concepts.
There are likely more people in these latter groups but the first two camps make any critical analysis and discussion on him impossible. I think it would be fun to assess the good and the bad, but you can't really do that here because there will be a vocal minority that says anything he does sucks and another that will chime in and defend him no matter what.
As for cheering for him.. He's a NY Giant, shouldn't we all cheer for him even if we think he's not the long term answer? I even cheered for CC fucking Brown!
Seattle had a outstanding draft last year with multiple impact players.
Seattle had a outstanding draft last year with multiple impact players.
Seattle really is a study on middle of the pack QBs. Russel Wilson does really well there, and Geno is basically pegged as a career backup with no real success. Then Wilson moved on to Denver, and is now surrounding by a much worse cast, and his play falls off dramatically. Geno on the other hand, moves into the starting position throwing to good receivers and supported by a strong running game, and flourishes. Now he is considered a good QB.
I think most NFL HC/GM already know this. Outside of the elite QBs, most others are successful or not based on their surrounding team and the system they are placed in.
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(1) He'll never be good enough to win a Super Bowl?
(2) He can't put a team on his shoulders and just win?
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
(6) He's holding the team back and they need a clean break from him?
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
(8) All of the above?
(9) None of the above?
(10) Something else?
What gives?
(1) He'll never be good enough to win a Super Bowl?
Trent Dilfer. Brad Johnson. Mark Rypien.
(2) He can't put a team on his shoulders and just win?
That's a myth these days. Even Mahommes showed in his last Superbowl that even with all his magic he could not overcome a shitty OL.
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
His picks and fumbles are way down since Daboll took over.
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
That's a popular opinion, but it there's no evidence to support that he will never improve. He's never had a decent protection, or any consistent, reliable, starting calibre targets to throw to. Not to mention, this is the 3rd or 4th offenses he's had to learn.
(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
I think SOME of the hate is because of this. Some people will never get over that unless he starts putting up passing numbers.
(6) He's holding the team back and they need a clean break from him?
On the contrary, he's been a huge part of the games they've won this year. And has led 5(I think) come-from-behind victories this year. He's the best skill player on the offense other than Barkley who gets stuffed a LOT. His play translates to wins a LOT more than Barkley's.
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
Then who do they play next year? Tyrod Taylor? What FA QB can you get who's not at the end of the road?
They've won too many games to be in a position to draft the next guy this year. If you give away a ton of picks to move up, you can't fix the problems that's holding the offense back under Jones (and Eli's last years, for that matter). So a rookie would fare better with the same problems? Sub-par interior OL, and no #1, #2, #3 WRs.
Tag Jones for next year. As for the money, a QB costs what a QB costs. The Giants have cap space next season. Fix the glaring holes and see how he does. He'll either thrive, or be the bridge to the next guy.
(8) All of the above?
(9) None of the above?
(10) Something else?
The issue a lot of people have with Jones is that he may never be a top-5 guy. FWIW, Kerry Collins wasn't a top-5 guy. Outside of Giants fans, most people don't think Eli and Simms were top-5 guys. (I completely disagree).
Neither is Kirk Cousins or Ryan Tannehill. But you CAN win with these guys, and they can hold down the fort for a while until you're in a position to upgrade. Jones can be AT LEAST that. Fix the problems around him, and you may be pleasantly surprised.
Good post
Agree David B with very good thoughts.
In comment 15936948 David B. said:
Quote:
(1) He'll never be good enough to win a Super Bowl?
(2) He can't put a team on his shoulders and just win?
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
(6) He's holding the team back and they need a clean break from him?
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
(8) All of the above?
(9) None of the above?
(10) Something else?
What gives?
(1) He'll never be good enough to win a Super Bowl?
Trent Dilfer. Brad Johnson. Mark Rypien.
Any examples within the past two decades? And which do you think is more difficult: acquiring a truly elite QB, or building an all-time great defense? Because the latter is what all of your examples have in common.
(2) He can't put a team on his shoulders and just win?
That's a myth these days. Even Mahommes showed in his last Superbowl that even with all his magic he could not overcome a shitty OL.
Mahomes still reached the Super Bowl with that shitty OL, as did Burrow, with an even worse OL, a year later. If DJ was losing Super Bowls because of a bad OL, I think most fans would be eager to sign him.
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
His picks and fumbles are way down since Daboll took over.
His int % is decreasing by the same amount that it has decreased every year since he was a rookie. Beyond that, BFD. Limiting turnovers is barely a consolation prize for not scoring touchdowns.
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
That's a popular opinion, but it there's no evidence to support that he will never improve. He's never had a decent protection, or any consistent, reliable, starting calibre targets to throw to. Not to mention, this is the 3rd or 4th offenses he's had to learn.
There's no concrete evidence either way on DJ's future performance/potential matrix, but there's definitely ample evidence to suggest that his cap cost will increase by 3-4x. Is his level of play going to improve by 3-4x? No. So he'll be a worse value, and he hasn't exactly been a steal so far.
(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
I think SOME of the hate is because of this. Some people will never get over that unless he starts putting up passing numbers.
This is a red herring and doesn't matter.
(6) He's holding the team back and they need a clean break from him?
On the contrary, he's been a huge part of the games they've won this year. And has led 5(I think) come-from-behind victories this year. He's the best skill player on the offense other than Barkley who gets stuffed a LOT. His play translates to wins a LOT more than Barkley's.
You can only come from behind when you play from behind. QBs that lead prolific offenses sometimes don't get 5 come from behind opportunities in a season, so it doesn't make any sense to applaud DJ for something that would be precluded in the first place by having a better offense.
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
Then who do they play next year? Tyrod Taylor? What FA QB can you get who's not at the end of the road?
Any of them. A placeholder/bridge QB is fungible. There are only two *logical* outcomes here: either DJ has cemented himself as the franchise QB, and therefore should be signed long-term (4+ years) at full QB1 price ($30M+ AAV); OR, DJ is a journeyman placeholder/bridge QB who just hasn't yet begun the journeyman QB journey. Unless you're willing to pony up the full price for DJ because he's unequivocally the guy, you shouldn't get hung up on which QB is chosen as the bridge, because the very concept of a bridge QB rests upon that QB being replaced in the near term.
They've won too many games to be in a position to draft the next guy this year. If you give away a ton of picks to move up, you can't fix the problems that's holding the offense back under Jones (and Eli's last years, for that matter). So a rookie would fare better with the same problems? Sub-par interior OL, and no #1, #2, #3 WRs.
Where was Kansas City picking initially in the draft when they chose Mahomes? Where was Buffalo picking initially in the draft when they chose Allen?
Tag Jones for next year. As for the money, a QB costs what a QB costs. The Giants have cap space next season. Fix the glaring holes and see how he does. He'll either thrive, or be the bridge to the next guy.
(8) All of the above?
(9) None of the above?
(10) Something else?
The issue a lot of people have with Jones is that he may never be a top-5 guy. FWIW, Kerry Collins wasn't a top-5 guy. Outside of Giants fans, most people don't think Eli and Simms were top-5 guys. (I completely disagree).
Neither is Kirk Cousins or Ryan Tannehill. But you CAN win with these guys, and they can hold down the fort for a while until you're in a position to upgrade. Jones can be AT LEAST that. Fix the problems around him, and you may be pleasantly surprised.
All of this to just suggest tagging DJ? Has it occurred to you that DJ simply does not possess the requisite skill set that BD/MK want from their QB? Should they pay twice the bridge QB rate for DJ on the FT, and/or be handcuffed from installing their preferred offense longer than necessary just to be fair to DJ because he got a raw deal thus far?
I can see the appeal of the tag, but I think that ship sailed when Barkley didn't sign an extension during the bye week - the tag is very possibly now earmarked for Saquon.
Beyond all of that, though, it just feels like Giants fans embrace inertia sometimes.
Daniel has played amongst maybe the worst roster in the NFL, for most of his career, certainly one of the worst.
Yet this fact, for which the critics have no answer, gets dismissed because they are sick of the excuses.
It s so ridiculous that even a game like last Sunday, where he was obviously the best player on the offense, gets put into the category of he stunk.
Victor Cruz after the game questioned why Slayton turned to face the quarterback instead of finishing his route. Yet even here Daniel takes the hit by his critics.
He made two plays late in the game that should have ended the game, that were negated by bad and dumb plays by his teammates, this gets ignored and every bad pass, sack, fumble gets put into the category of “see he stinks “, even though quarterbacks all over the league, every week, make similar mistakes, even the great ones.
I feel confident Jones will be back next season, we ll see if I m correct.
Daniel has played amongst maybe the worst roster in the NFL, for most of his career, certainly one of the worst.
This has always been my question for fans whose arguments rely on this excuse:
If the rest of the roster was so bad that DJ couldn't succeed, why are you trusting the same scouts and GM who built that roster to have gotten the DJ choice correct in the first place? Why is he the exception?
The only QB drafted before him his year was Kyler Murray, and DJ has not outperformed Murray.
But, for argument's sake, let's agree that DJ has indeed outperformed Murray. Murray just signed a 5y contract for $230M. If DJ has outperformed him, how much are you paying DJ?
He made two plays late in the game that should have ended the game, that were negated by bad and dumb plays by his teammates, this gets ignored and every bad pass, sack, fumble gets put into the category of “see he stinks “, even though quarterbacks all over the league, every week, make similar mistakes, even the great ones.
I feel confident Jones will be back next season, we ll see if I m correct.
To be fair, he also made a throw that could have ended the game if not dropped by Washington. Can’t only count the missed plays by the Giants. Washington shot themselves in the foot a lot too on Sunday.
Daniel has played amongst maybe the worst roster in the NFL, for most of his career, certainly one of the worst.
Yet this fact, for which the critics have no answer, gets dismissed because they are sick of the excuses.
I'll give you an answer. Yes his supporting cast has stunk. I don't happen to believe that with an improved group around him that his performance would improve dramatically enough to be a longterm answer, and I'm not willing to delay the decision indefinitely until poor little Danny's luck changes.
Receivers drop passes and commit stupid penalties for those guys too.
You have to be a lot better everywhere else to win a Super Bowl with Dilfer (like having one of the 2-3 best defenses in NFL history) than you do to win one with a real franchise QB (like 2011 Eli).
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Jones has outperformed all the QBs drafted before him his year which many on this site thought were the next coming & did it with lesser talent across the board and prehistoric play calling for most of his career with the Giants. Just sayin'.
The only QB drafted before him his year was Kyler Murray, and DJ has not outperformed Murray.
But, for argument's sake, let's agree that DJ has indeed outperformed Murray. Murray just signed a 5y contract for $230M. If DJ has outperformed him, how much are you paying DJ?
The money is the problem. I have read several posts more or less concluding that we’ll get some bargain price to keep DJ because he hasn’t fully proven himself yet.
However, Jones’ agent will be just as quick to cite all of the coaching changes, the inconsistent line, the lack of weapons, and Jones’ improvement this year when negotiating with the Giants as the fans who say the same thing in defense of DJ.
The only way they are retaining Jones at a modest price is if no other teams are interested in him. That seems unlikely given the amount of QB instability that exists in the league right now. After you move past the upper tier of QB’s (Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, Jackson, Burrow) the position really falls of a cliff in terms of consistency and elite traits. Brady, Rodgers, and Wilson look like they are about cooked. Players like Hurts and Lawrence have the potential to move into that upper tier of QB’s, but they aren’t there yet.
I'd take my chances with Dan Marino or Warren Moon instead of hoping I can assemble one of the NFL's best defensive teams in history to drag a corpse at QB to the Super Bowl.
rsjem1979 : 11:47 am : link : reply
In comment 15936948 David B. said:
Quote:
(1) He'll never be good enough to win a Super Bowl?
Trent Dilfer. Brad Johnson. Mark Rypien.
The existence of exceptions doesn't prove that Jones can ever reach that level.
Quote:
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
His picks and fumbles are way down since Daboll took over.
He's still slow to process and has a long-ish delivery.
Quote:
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
That's a popular opinion, but it there's no evidence to support that he will never improve. He's never had a decent protection, or any consistent, reliable, starting calibre targets to throw to. Not to mention, this is the 3rd or 4th offenses he's had to learn.
Those are excuses, not evidence.
Quote:
(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
I think SOME of the hate is because of this. Some people will never get over that unless he starts putting up passing numbers.
Yes, he's held to the standard of his draft position, but what's more important going forward is how much he's actually worth as a player.
Quote:
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
Then who do they play next year? Tyrod Taylor? What FA QB can you get who's not at the end of the road?
Sure. Why not? Tyrod Taylor is a perfectly adequate QB who can hold down the fort for a year while the Giants spend their money elsewhere to build up the roster.
1) The existence of exceptions doesn't prove that Jones can ever reach that level.
Who said I have to prove it? The best TEAM usually wins SBs. Not always the best QB.
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
His picks and fumbles are way down since Daboll took over.
He's still slow to process and has a long-ish delivery.
Says who?
Can't do much about the delivery, though it seems to me, the ball's coming out fast. He's been much more decisive. He converted a LOT of 3rd downs this year -- not just with his feet. Slow to process? Maybe he's waiting for his scrub level receivers to get open. I don't know whether he's slow to process or not, but you don't either.
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
That's a popular opinion, but it there's no evidence to support that he will never improve. He's never had a decent protection, or any consistent, reliable, starting calibre targets to throw to. Not to mention, this is the 3rd or 4th offenses he's had to learn.
Those are excuses, not evidence.
No, those are facts, not excuses. You want to dismiss facts, you can, but there's certainly ZERO evidence that "he'll never improve."
On the contrary, if you haven't seen improvement this year under Daboll, you really haven't been paying attention. He's settled into this offense. His turnovers are down. He's engineered several come-from-behind wins. He's been more responsible for the wins than he has been for the losses.
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
Then who do they play next year? Tyrod Taylor? What FA QB can you get who's not at the end of the road?
Sure. Why not? Tyrod Taylor is a perfectly adequate QB who can hold down the fort for a year while the Giants spend their money elsewhere to build up the roster.
Ha. LOL. Taylor isn't even Jones. And (all of you) stop acting like it's your money they're spending. You think a new GM and HC who are on the clock want to waste a year of their contracts hitching their saddle to a career backup?
And you don't BUILD the roster by spending money in FA. You fix holes. You build through the draft.
To the original point of the thread, the REAL issue; the thing that causes all of these Jones threads, is that 4 years in, WE -- outside of the Giants facility -- still don't know if Jones the long-term answer. That's what truly bugs everyone!
Everyone has their opinion.
FWIW, My opinion is:
I don't know -- and neither to ANY of you.
It would be great if he becomes "the guy," but I'm certainly not counting on it. I am FINE with tagging him, and letting be the bridge QB to the next guy -- because I don't see any better options available for next year.
But I guarantee you that Daboll and Schoen will have their answer by the end of the season. And even if their answer is he's not the guy, they may well have to ride Jones until they have a better option. Just like the 25+ other teams in the league who don't have an Allen or a Mahommes. The Giants won't be riding Tyrod 'Suitcase' Taylor unless something goes very wrong.
There are plenty of examples of average QBs who have talent around them and who still can't get to where we would want them to go. So if you invest money in Jones, at the expense of other talent on the team, and that is the result, you are investing in years more of agony.
Which average QB are we signing next year for less money than what we would pay Jones? How much less than Jones and is that difference worth having a new QB coming in to try to learn and win with a new system.
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and the Giants kept losing
Daniel has played amongst maybe the worst roster in the NFL, for most of his career, certainly one of the worst.
This has always been my question for fans whose arguments rely on this excuse:
If the rest of the roster was so bad that DJ couldn't succeed, why are you trusting the same scouts and GM who built that roster to have gotten the DJ choice correct in the first place? Why is he the exception?
Because I ve seen what this collection of misfits were without him
They hit on a few players, Lawerence, Williams, Thomas, I think Jones is one too.
Although I do not think he was worthy of the # 6 pick. I also understand he is not Josh Allen or Herbert, but passing in those two guys is another story.
Quote:
In comment 15937092 joeinpa said:
Quote:
and the Giants kept losing
Daniel has played amongst maybe the worst roster in the NFL, for most of his career, certainly one of the worst.
This has always been my question for fans whose arguments rely on this excuse:
If the rest of the roster was so bad that DJ couldn't succeed, why are you trusting the same scouts and GM who built that roster to have gotten the DJ choice correct in the first place? Why is he the exception?
Because I ve seen what this collection of misfits were without him
They hit on a few players, Lawerence, Williams, Thomas, I think Jones is one too.
Although I do not think he was worthy of the # 6 pick. I also understand he is not Josh Allen or Herbert, but passing in those two guys is another story.
Dunk, these are different scouts and executives than the ones that massacred the roster.
Quote:
In comment 15937092 joeinpa said:
Quote:
and the Giants kept losing
Daniel has played amongst maybe the worst roster in the NFL, for most of his career, certainly one of the worst.
This has always been my question for fans whose arguments rely on this excuse:
If the rest of the roster was so bad that DJ couldn't succeed, why are you trusting the same scouts and GM who built that roster to have gotten the DJ choice correct in the first place? Why is he the exception?
Because I ve seen what this collection of misfits were without him
They hit on a few players, Lawerence, Williams, Thomas, I think Jones is one too.
Although I do not think he was worthy of the # 6 pick. I also understand he is not Josh Allen or Herbert, but passing in those two guys is another story.
I might add, I witness the he last 4 years of Eli s career with a crap roster
Ha. LOL. Taylor isn't even Jones. And (all of you) stop acting like it's your money they're spending. You think a new GM and HC who are on the clock want to waste a year of their contracts hitching their saddle to a career backup?
I certainly hope they aren't operating a long term plan with the 2023 season record in mind. The process that is hopefully in place is one with a goal of rebuilding the roster in all areas to compete for several years.
Perhaps you should stop worrying about "next year" so specifically and look ahead to the next 3-5 years.
To the original point of the thread, the REAL issue; the thing that causes all of these Jones threads, is that 4 years in, WE -- outside of the Giants facility -- still don't know if Jones the long-term answer. That's what truly bugs everyone!
No, what bugs a lot of people is that others don't believe Daniel Jones will be the answer and want to move on from him. These are the people who make a litany of excuses for Jones, which proves nothing more than the regime that chose Jones also built a crap roster.
I don't think Daniel Jones will ever be good enough to reach the heights we all want. I'm allowed to hold that opinion, even if you don't think it's fair at this juncture.
He may turn out like a Moriota or a Tannehill or Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson or a Kerry Collins.
Can he ever be an Eli Manning? I am guessing no but many thought Eli was a bum even during the 2007 season.
We finally seem to have competency in our front office and in our coaching staff. Some young player are starting to become stars in Dex, Love, Thomas. We have a good young nucleus and lots of cap space next year plus a shit ton of players returning from injury next year.
Moving on from Jones could set this team back. Same with Barkley. They are arguably our 2 best offensive players right now.
It comes down to what are you going to do if you don't keep Jones.
I see this quite differently, I think DJ will turn down any offer from Giants and become a FA for the following reasons.
1. Giants never gave him the parts to help him succeed.
2. Giants did not pick up his option and left him in limbo.
3. Many Giants fans unfairly criticizing his play.
I believe there are at least several teams that will be happy to pay his price in this QB starved league. I think he will come out of this very well, not the Giants.
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Some say he isn't worth the investment and that is easy to say since he has had little success here.
He may turn out like a Moriota or a Tannehill or Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson or a Kerry Collins.
Can he ever be an Eli Manning? I am guessing no but many thought Eli was a bum even during the 2007 season.
We finally seem to have competency in our front office and in our coaching staff. Some young player are starting to become stars in Dex, Love, Thomas. We have a good young nucleus and lots of cap space next year plus a shit ton of players returning from injury next year.
Moving on from Jones could set this team back. Same with Barkley. They are arguably our 2 best offensive players right now.
It comes down to what are you going to do if you don't keep Jones.
I see this quite differently, I think DJ will turn down any offer from Giants and become a FA for the following reasons.
1. Giants never gave him the parts to help him succeed.
2. Giants did not pick up his option and left him in limbo.
3. Many Giants fans unfairly criticizing his play.
I believe there are at least several teams that will be happy to pay his price in this QB starved league. I think he will come out of this very well, not the Giants.
This is an interesting take. Most posts always make this assumption like DJ is lucky to be here, etc. But the Giants have really done him no favors from a development standpoint. He may want a fresh start.
The ones who chose DJ are the same ones who cratered the roster. They proved at every turn that they couldn't identify good football players to save their lives, and yet fans want to cling to the belief that in spite of fucking up every decision they made, they somehow got the most important decision correct.
Talk about wishful thinking.
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In comment 15937092 joeinpa said:
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and the Giants kept losing
Daniel has played amongst maybe the worst roster in the NFL, for most of his career, certainly one of the worst.
This has always been my question for fans whose arguments rely on this excuse:
If the rest of the roster was so bad that DJ couldn't succeed, why are you trusting the same scouts and GM who built that roster to have gotten the DJ choice correct in the first place? Why is he the exception?
Because I ve seen what this collection of misfits were without him
They hit on a few players, Lawerence, Williams, Thomas, I think Jones is one too.
Although I do not think he was worthy of the # 6 pick. I also understand he is not Josh Allen or Herbert, but passing in those two guys is another story.
You saw them with Mike Glennon and Jake Fromm. Cool, DJ is better than Glennon and Fromm.
To each their own, but I flinch at the idea of paying big money on the basis of hope.
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Dunk, these are different scouts and executives than the ones that massacred the roster.
The ones who chose DJ are the same ones who cratered the roster. They proved at every turn that they couldn't identify good football players to save their lives, and yet fans want to cling to the belief that in spite of fucking up every decision they made, they somehow got the most important decision correct.
Talk about wishful thinking.
They got Dexter Lawrence right.... Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every so often. Julian Love isn't too bad. Once the guy is here it really doesn't matter who picked them.
Daniel has played amongst maybe the worst roster in the NFL, for most of his career, certainly one of the worst.
Yet this fact, for which the critics have no answer, gets dismissed because they are sick of the excuses.
It s so ridiculous that even a game like last Sunday, where he was obviously the best player on the offense, gets put into the category of he stunk.
Victor Cruz after the game questioned why Slayton turned to face the quarterback instead of finishing his route. Yet even here Daniel takes the hit by his critics.
He made two plays late in the game that should have ended the game, that were negated by bad and dumb plays by his teammates, this gets ignored and every bad pass, sack, fumble gets put into the category of “see he stinks “, even though quarterbacks all over the league, every week, make similar mistakes, even the great ones.
I feel confident Jones will be back next season, we ll see if I m correct.
Great post, telling it like it is.
First of all, the salary cap is what matters, not whose money is being spent. As soon as you went there with the "it's not your money" argument, I could peg you as an unserious participant in this discussion, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering with this anyway. Regardless, it does not logically compute that someone could simultaneously be in favor of retaining DJ and yet concern themselves with JS/BD hitching their wagon to a career backup.
There is a very real possibility that DJ is a career backup.
Maybe they don't trust the receivers, TEs and the interior OL. The coaches are people too, this ineptitude by a lot of the guys on the field has to play on their minds somewhat. I knew Judge was going to pay dearly for those two QB sneaks last year but I can't say I was shocked by it, I can't remember if it was Glennon or Fromm but that was the most pathetic offense i have ever seen, they were down by the goal line and were still somewhat in the game. It wasn't what I would have done due to the semantics but the ineptitude of the Offense clearly led to that decision
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of those questions. I would like him back at a very reasonable price. However, I find it unlikely he re-signs for the $15M I am thinking of. I wouldn't pay $25M-$35M to try to find out what he can do with an improving roster and coaching staff. That's money for an established star.
You're right, he's not signing for $15. Any offer he gets is going to be short term under $10 a year. That's the going rate for journeyman replacement level qb's which is what he is. He is more Case Keenum than Tannehill. Tannehill is a much better passer and was in Miami as well.
The questions about Jones are very similar to the questions about Tannehill in Miami. Tannehill doesn’t run as well, had a better pocket to throw from, and had equal or better receivers. Barkley is a better RB than anyone that was on the Dolphins. Fans were happy to see him go but they were and are still looking for the next Dan Marino. Miami has settled for an injury prone but accurate passing game manager, upgraded the offensive line through the draft AND free agency, upgraded the RBs, dramatically upgraded the WRs, and built a solid defense. Giants aren’t close to having the same team the Dolphins have now.
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Why are you so confident Jones will be back when you yourself said the coaching staff doesn’t trust the offense?
Maybe they don't trust the receivers, TEs and the interior OL. The coaches are people too, this ineptitude by a lot of the guys on the field has to play on their minds somewhat. I knew Judge was going to pay dearly for those two QB sneaks last year but I can't say I was shocked by it, I can't remember if it was Glennon or Fromm but that was the most pathetic offense i have ever seen, they were down by the goal line and were still somewhat in the game. It wasn't what I would have done due to the semantics but the ineptitude of the Offense clearly led to that decision
That wasn't an incorrect call based upon the knowledge of having a bad offense, that was a full mental psychotic break by Judge and a dysfunctional org.
Yeah...yeah...the whole team has sucked while he's here...we all get it.
Teams like the Titans/49ers/Vikings/etc deal with QBs like Tannehill/Jimmy G/Kirk Cousins b/c they are still winning games.
Everyone likes to talk about how long it took Simms to win around here...bro...that was in 1979.
In today's NFL - no one is patient with their QB anymore. It seems to me like the only fan base that sticks to a QB that loses as much as DJ is...well...this one.
It's not hard to figure out.
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In comment 15937218 Sean said:
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Why are you so confident Jones will be back when you yourself said the coaching staff doesn’t trust the offense?
Maybe they don't trust the receivers, TEs and the interior OL. The coaches are people too, this ineptitude by a lot of the guys on the field has to play on their minds somewhat. I knew Judge was going to pay dearly for those two QB sneaks last year but I can't say I was shocked by it, I can't remember if it was Glennon or Fromm but that was the most pathetic offense i have ever seen, they were down by the goal line and were still somewhat in the game. It wasn't what I would have done due to the semantics but the ineptitude of the Offense clearly led to that decision
That wasn't an incorrect call based upon the knowledge of having a bad offense, that was a full mental psychotic break by Judge and a dysfunctional org.
Again I wouldn't have done it, but it was really one play. The first QB sneak was fine and nobody cared, teams do it all the time to get off the goal line. The second one was the issue because it indicated surrender, it got Judge fired and likely brought Taylor here.
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In comment 15937188 Walker Gillette said:
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Dunk, these are different scouts and executives than the ones that massacred the roster.
The ones who chose DJ are the same ones who cratered the roster. They proved at every turn that they couldn't identify good football players to save their lives, and yet fans want to cling to the belief that in spite of fucking up every decision they made, they somehow got the most important decision correct.
Talk about wishful thinking.
They got Dexter Lawrence right.... Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every so often. Julian Love isn't too bad. Once the guy is here it really doesn't matter who picked them.
It does matter who picked the player if that player is scheme-dependent. And we're seeing with the offense this year that the scheme is being stripped down to the frame in order to function at all with the ragtag bunch left behind by Gettleman & Co.
What's debatable is to what extent DJ's skills are the cause of the stripped-down offense, and to what extent DJ's play is the effect of the stripped-down offense. Only the key stakeholders inside NYG HQ know the answer to that.
What we do know is that DJ is very clearly not a scheme-agnostic stud QB like the very top of the elite tier are - that should come as no surprise to anyone here, and should not be a controversial take (though I'm sure there are some posters here who will absolutely try to claim otherwise).
Given that DJ is, like many QBs in the lower/middle tier, scheme-dependent, it does bear some consideration to wonder if JS/BD/MK see DJ as a scheme fit for the offense they want to be deploying, rather than the one we are currently seeing. I have a hard time believing that a HC and OC who come from two of the most prolific passing units in the NFL are somehow running a throwback running offense purely by choice.
I think their hands are tied right now, for a variety of reasons, and it almost doesn't matter whether DJ falls on the cause side or the effect side, because the end result is the same: JS/BD/MK will still be projecting a QB who is not currently under contract into their preferred offensive scheme, and there will be zero QBs on the market (including DJ) who will have demonstrated experience/success operating within that scheme.
Whether they decide to tag DJ, sign him long-term, attempt to bring him back as a bridge, replace him with some other veteran placeholder, and/or go draft a QB, whatever, the reality is this, IMO: we don't know what their prototypical QB is, and which option available to them will be the closest approximation of what they desire in a QB, at whatever price that they feel is appropriate.
I don't expect JS/BD to give any sort of incumbent advantage to DJ. If they believe he's the guy, they'll sign him long-term at relatively big money. If they want to make it a priority to keep DJ but are far apart from his side on dollars and years, they'll tag him. If they believe he's a fungible bridge QB, they'll probably set their price for a placeholder (regardless of which one it ends up being), and offer that to DJ and to other QB alternatives, and let the market sort itself out.
In that latter scenario, it doesn't matter whether they end up with DJ or Andy Dalton or Geno Smith or whoever, because they're acknowledging by virtue of the contract itself that none of them are the long-term answer.
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In comment 15937210 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15937188 Walker Gillette said:
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Dunk, these are different scouts and executives than the ones that massacred the roster.
The ones who chose DJ are the same ones who cratered the roster. They proved at every turn that they couldn't identify good football players to save their lives, and yet fans want to cling to the belief that in spite of fucking up every decision they made, they somehow got the most important decision correct.
Talk about wishful thinking.
They got Dexter Lawrence right.... Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every so often. Julian Love isn't too bad. Once the guy is here it really doesn't matter who picked them.
It does matter who picked the player if that player is scheme-dependent. And we're seeing with the offense this year that the scheme is being stripped down to the frame in order to function at all with the ragtag bunch left behind by Gettleman & Co.
What's debatable is to what extent DJ's skills are the cause of the stripped-down offense, and to what extent DJ's play is the effect of the stripped-down offense. Only the key stakeholders inside NYG HQ know the answer to that.
What we do know is that DJ is very clearly not a scheme-agnostic stud QB like the very top of the elite tier are - that should come as no surprise to anyone here, and should not be a controversial take (though I'm sure there are some posters here who will absolutely try to claim otherwise).
Given that DJ is, like many QBs in the lower/middle tier, scheme-dependent, it does bear some consideration to wonder if JS/BD/MK see DJ as a scheme fit for the offense they want to be deploying, rather than the one we are currently seeing. I have a hard time believing that a HC and OC who come from two of the most prolific passing units in the NFL are somehow running a throwback running offense purely by choice.
I think their hands are tied right now, for a variety of reasons, and it almost doesn't matter whether DJ falls on the cause side or the effect side, because the end result is the same: JS/BD/MK will still be projecting a QB who is not currently under contract into their preferred offensive scheme, and there will be zero QBs on the market (including DJ) who will have demonstrated experience/success operating within that scheme.
Whether they decide to tag DJ, sign him long-term, attempt to bring him back as a bridge, replace him with some other veteran placeholder, and/or go draft a QB, whatever, the reality is this, IMO: we don't know what their prototypical QB is, and which option available to them will be the closest approximation of what they desire in a QB, at whatever price that they feel is appropriate.
I don't expect JS/BD to give any sort of incumbent advantage to DJ. If they believe he's the guy, they'll sign him long-term at relatively big money. If they want to make it a priority to keep DJ but are far apart from his side on dollars and years, they'll tag him. If they believe he's a fungible bridge QB, they'll probably set their price for a placeholder (regardless of which one it ends up being), and offer that to DJ and to other QB alternatives, and let the market sort itself out.
In that latter scenario, it doesn't matter whether they end up with DJ or Andy Dalton or Geno Smith or whoever, because they're acknowledging by virtue of the contract itself that none of them are the long-term answer.
Good post and overall I agree. Whenever a new coach comes in they typically want their guy. Last years QB crop on paper wasn’t especially terrific so the team wisely stocked up on edge and offensive line. The fact that they didn’t pick up Jones’ 5th year option was very telling. If they thought highly enough of Jones that they would consider signing him long term you would think they would have picked that up to give them some flexibility.
Great idea! In the future, offering a 4 year contract to a QB who has proven nothing in his first 4 years in the league, will be the key to success in the NFL.
Teams like the Titans/49ers/Vikings/etc deal with QBs like Tannehill/Jimmy G/Kirk Cousins b/c they are still winning games.
Titans were the AFC's #1 seed last season due to their roster and good coaching.
Vikings have a nice roster and the NFL's best receiver.
49ers have arguably the best roster in the entire league, loaded on offense and defense.
Daniel Jones is throwing to Darius Slayton and Isaiah Hodgins.
The 49ers may miss out on a Super Bowl opportunity because they’ve had to rely on a slightly above average but often injured QB.
We’ll see on the Vikings, and if Cousins turns back into Primetime Kirk during the postseason.
All cautionary tales for the Giants while considering handing out a multi year deal to a mediocre QB.
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As I’ve mentioned previously I would offer Jones 4 years 100M. Think that’s fair and I think he’d take it.
Great idea! In the future, offering a 4 year contract to a QB who has proven nothing in his first 4 years in the league, will be the key to success in the NFL.
Schoen would literally have to get on his hands and knees and beg to get Jones to sign a 4 year 100m contract.
The biggest myth in the history of sports is when fans think that teams traded a superstar or didn't pay someone because they "couldn't afford him." The Titans could have easily paid Brown if they wanted to. Teams make it work with the cap. They just didn't want to commit to him long term for whatever reason.
The GM chose to get a 1st round pick for him, which they turned into Burks, who looks pretty damn good.
Burks is averaging less yards a reception and less yards per game since Week 10 than Slayton - let’s pump the breaks on them getting an AJ Brown replacement.
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If they weren’t paying a mediocre QB one of the highest cap hits in the league maybe they keep AJ Brown.
The biggest myth in the history of sports is when fans think that teams traded a superstar or didn't pay someone because they "couldn't afford him." The Titans could have easily paid Brown if they wanted to. Teams make it work with the cap. They just didn't want to commit to him long term for whatever reason.
The GM chose to get a 1st round pick for him, which they turned into Burks, who looks pretty damn good.
Can you offer evidence that it's a myth?
To my eyes, the Titans trading Brown to draft Burks looks an awful lot like the Vikings trading Diggs to draft Jefferson. It may or may not be a coincidence that each of those teams have QBs with whom DJ is often compared, both in terms of skills/performance as well as contract value concern.
Trading Diggs to end up with Jefferson is a wash, right? But a win on the cost side of things. That helps keep Cousins' price tag in balance.
Trading Brown to end up with Burks might end up being a wash also, but it might not, either. The Titans hope that Burks can match Brown's production, but that's a best case scenario, if we're being realistic.
So two different teams, both with well-paid veteran QBs trade away soon-to-be-expensive WR1s and then immediately draft that WR's presumed replacement. What motivation do they have to make those trades except for the financial impact of the impending contract that each of those WRs was about to command?
If it was because they were shifting priority and positional value away from WR, you wouldn't see both of those teams immediately using high picks to replace the WRs they traded away (and in both cases, the teams who traded away the star WR not only used a high pick for the replacement, they literally used exactly the pick they received in return for the star WR). If it was because they had an abundance of WR talent and wanted to rebalance their roster, the replacements for Diggs and/or Brown would already be on the roster.
Or, in a much simpler explanation, it's not a myth.
Brown's best season with Tennessee was 70 catches and 1075 yards.
Burks has played 8 games as a rookie, some of those games barely seeing the field, and has 25 catches for 359 yards.
His first two years in the league:
52-1051-8 (20 ypr)
70-1075-11
Which is actually a higher yards per target than Jefferson. He may not be Jefferson, but he’s in conversation of top 10 WRs in the league.
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Teams like the Titans/49ers/Vikings/etc deal with QBs like Tannehill/Jimmy G/Kirk Cousins b/c they are still winning games.
Titans were the AFC's #1 seed last season due to their roster and good coaching.
Vikings have a nice roster and the NFL's best receiver.
49ers have arguably the best roster in the entire league, loaded on offense and defense.
Daniel Jones is throwing to Darius Slayton and Isaiah Hodgins.
So is your assumption here that if DJ was the starting QB for those organizations then they would be in a better place?
Brown's best season with Tennessee was 70 catches and 1075 yards.
Burks has played 8 games as a rookie, some of those games barely seeing the field, and has 25 catches for 359 yards.
They didn't trade Brown's best season with them. They traded Brown's next season, this one, the one where he's a stud WR1.
And they used exactly the pick that they received, just like the Vikings did with Diggs/Jefferson, to replace Brown.
The reason why both teams did that was to remain aligned with their cap construction; in neither case did the original teams even attempt to do anything other than replace the WR they traded away with the pick that they received in return, in order to stick with a rookie contract at WR1. That's the most direct evidence of budgetary constraints that you could possibly imagine.
And you're not going to want to hear it, but the reason why they need to have budgetary constraints at WR is at least partially due to the money each team has allocated to QB (and, to a lesser extent, RB).
Both of those are actually really good examples of why fans can harbor valid concerns about DJ's next contract without it being an insult to DJ himself. It's simply a matter of having serious reservations with the idea of a highly-paid middle-tier QB, and the way that it informs other roster decisions, especially when some of the roster decisions that it might inform include addressing the supporting cast that fans point to as a glaring deficiency.
Maybe if you understood this element, you might also understand the bigger picture.
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Why are you so confident Jones will be back when you yourself said the coaching staff doesn’t trust the offense?
Maybe they don't trust the receivers, TEs and the interior OL. The coaches are people too, this ineptitude by a lot of the guys on the field has to play on their minds somewhat. I knew Judge was going to pay dearly for those two QB sneaks last year but I can't say I was shocked by it, I can't remember if it was Glennon or Fromm but that was the most pathetic offense i have ever seen, they were down by the goal line and were still somewhat in the game. It wasn't what I would have done due to the semantics but the ineptitude of the Offense clearly led to that decision
Not trusting the offense might or might not translate to not trusting DJ, we ll see. I don’t think that is the case based on what I have seen during this season in critical drives.
In what world has DJ outperformed Kyler Murray? The things people say to prop up an average QB are mind boggling.
People in here talk about DJ like he's a rookie. He's in year 4 and still can't throw 15 TDs. Want to be considered a franchise QB? Throw for 4000 yards and close to 30 TDs. Don't be a QB that has to run a dink and dunk offense built around the running game.
What if you're wrong (you are!) and he's still the same average Joe next year (which he will!)? The Giants would be locked into 2-3 more years with no way out.
No to mention...4 years based on what? This isn't a guy outperforming his $8 million salary now, so just bump him to $25 million for fun? The argument used to be wins...but now that Saquon is getting shutdown...DJ isn't stepping up to carry the load, and the Giants are 0-3-1 in their last 4. His production sucks...this offense (minus Saquon) sucks. What has DJ done to earn that type of money for 4 years? That's a Gettleman move!
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As I’ve mentioned previously I would offer Jones 4 years 100M. Think that’s fair and I think he’d take it.
What if you're wrong (you are!) and he's still the same average Joe next year (which he will!)? The Giants would be locked into 2-3 more years with no way out.
No to mention...4 years based on what? This isn't a guy outperforming his $8 million salary now, so just bump him to $25 million for fun? The argument used to be wins...but now that Saquon is getting shutdown...DJ isn't stepping up to carry the load, and the Giants are 0-3-1 in their last 4. His production sucks...this offense (minus Saquon) sucks. What has DJ done to earn that type of money for 4 years? That's a Gettleman move!
THat would be a Gettleman move but, this guy's whole thing is proving Gettleman was not a bad GM and Jones is actually a good QB and Barkley doesn't suck.
Guess what if you just evaluate every player with hopeless optimism , eventually you will be proven right. Barkley sucked last year. He was obviously hurt and is not the same player at all this year. He shown flashes of being an extra special player. It would not be money to franchise him and well worth it.
Gettleman and jones on the other hand are worst ever category or just mediocre at best category. This guy is just jumping out of his skin to say "see I told you so."
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Jones has outperformed all the QBs drafted before him his year which many on this site thought were the next coming & did it with lesser talent across the board and prehistoric play calling for most of his career with the Giants. Just sayin'.
In what world has DJ outperformed Kyler Murray? The things people say to prop up an average QB are mind boggling.
People in here talk about DJ like he's a rookie. He's in year 4 and still can't throw 15 TDs. Want to be considered a franchise QB? Throw for 4000 yards and close to 30 TDs. Don't be a QB that has to run a dink and dunk offense built around the running game.
Maybe in ESPN-land Murray is a good QB, that scrub throws more teammates and coaches under the bus than playoff TDs.
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In comment 15937100 Paul326 said:
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Jones has outperformed all the QBs drafted before him his year which many on this site thought were the next coming & did it with lesser talent across the board and prehistoric play calling for most of his career with the Giants. Just sayin'.
In what world has DJ outperformed Kyler Murray? The things people say to prop up an average QB are mind boggling.
People in here talk about DJ like he's a rookie. He's in year 4 and still can't throw 15 TDs. Want to be considered a franchise QB? Throw for 4000 yards and close to 30 TDs. Don't be a QB that has to run a dink and dunk offense built around the running game.
Maybe in ESPN-land Murray is a good QB, that scrub throws more teammates and coaches under the bus than playoff TDs.
Remind us again how many playoff TDs DJ has thrown? Murray has some growing up to do, but there's not a GM in the NFL that would rather have DJ over Murray, even with Murray's contract.
So you think DJ is worth more than $230M over 5 years?
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Maybe in ESPN-land Murray is a good QB, that scrub throws more teammates and coaches under the bus than playoff TDs.
So you think DJ is worth more than $230M over 5 years?
He, and a few others, probably do.
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In comment 15937414 GMen72 said:
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In comment 15937100 Paul326 said:
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Jones has outperformed all the QBs drafted before him his year which many on this site thought were the next coming & did it with lesser talent across the board and prehistoric play calling for most of his career with the Giants. Just sayin'.
In what world has DJ outperformed Kyler Murray? The things people say to prop up an average QB are mind boggling.
People in here talk about DJ like he's a rookie. He's in year 4 and still can't throw 15 TDs. Want to be considered a franchise QB? Throw for 4000 yards and close to 30 TDs. Don't be a QB that has to run a dink and dunk offense built around the running game.
Maybe in ESPN-land Murray is a good QB, that scrub throws more teammates and coaches under the bus than playoff TDs.
Remind us again how many playoff TDs DJ has thrown? Murray has some growing up to do, but there's not a GM in the NFL that would rather have DJ over Murray, even with Murray's contract.
Remind me how you can replace him with Colt friggin McCoy and Arizona doesn't miss a beat.
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Maybe in ESPN-land Murray is a good QB, that scrub throws more teammates and coaches under the bus than playoff TDs.
So you think DJ is worth more than $230M over 5 years?
It’s funny when price is brought up none of the Jones super fans want to address it. I guess they think Jones will just sign for $10M next year.
Jones will be looking for the Tannehill contract I’d guess, 4/118. But, no one wants to bring it up.
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In comment 15937516 Spiciest Memelord said:
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In comment 15937414 GMen72 said:
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In comment 15937100 Paul326 said:
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Jones has outperformed all the QBs drafted before him his year which many on this site thought were the next coming & did it with lesser talent across the board and prehistoric play calling for most of his career with the Giants. Just sayin'.
In what world has DJ outperformed Kyler Murray? The things people say to prop up an average QB are mind boggling.
People in here talk about DJ like he's a rookie. He's in year 4 and still can't throw 15 TDs. Want to be considered a franchise QB? Throw for 4000 yards and close to 30 TDs. Don't be a QB that has to run a dink and dunk offense built around the running game.
Maybe in ESPN-land Murray is a good QB, that scrub throws more teammates and coaches under the bus than playoff TDs.
Remind us again how many playoff TDs DJ has thrown? Murray has some growing up to do, but there's not a GM in the NFL that would rather have DJ over Murray, even with Murray's contract.
Remind me how you can replace him with Colt friggin McCoy and Arizona doesn't miss a beat.
The same Colt McCoy who helped lead the Giants to one of their best Gettleman era wins over Seattle?
Last season probably looks a bit different if he was retained instead of bringing in the Giraffe
If you think DJ is better than Kyler* Murray, then you should also expect that DJ will earn more than $230M over the next 5 years.
There is no logical way to separate those two points of view.
Shhhh... we don't say the quiet part out loud.
He’s a terrible leader and a bad teammate. I would bet there are many teams that wouldn’t take him at any number.
In terms of fantasy points and madden ratings, sure. Those numbers are pretty. Those “tools” are wonderful. Million dollar arm and a ten cent head.
I wouldn’t give either that money. I think that is an awful contract. If you think that it is fair and well earned you’re entitled to your opinion. We can see how the whole thing turns out.
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Seems to have particular antipathy for Murray, Wilson, Dak, and Lamar
Shhhh... we don't say the quiet part out loud.
No antipathy. Just don’t feel the need to have cock in my mouth. But you do you.
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I’d imagine most people are just anxious to find out what the Giants think, and we will soon.
Whatever the Giants decide, there will be people here who still will not admit they were wrong. Whether the Giants keep Jones or let him go. Their actions will be the deciding factor here... not what someone with keyboard muscles on this website thinks.
I will
He’s a terrible leader and a bad teammate. I would bet there are many teams that wouldn’t take him at any number.
In terms of fantasy points and madden ratings, sure. Those numbers are pretty. Those “tools” are wonderful. Million dollar arm and a ten cent head.
I wouldn’t give either that money. I think that is an awful contract. If you think that it is fair and well earned you’re entitled to your opinion. We can see how the whole thing turns out.
I think Murray’s contract is awful too, but I also recognize that it’s not wildly out of line with the rest of the veteran QB1 market, and therefore you can reasonably expect DJ’s agent to point to it as a comp, particularly for the DJ-favorable reasons that you list.
I don’t have some fantastic expectation that the QB market is suddenly going to change to conform to DJ. Rather, I realize that it’s much more likely that DJ’s contract will ultimately be somewhat informed by the existing parameters of the current market.
That’s the primary reason why I would let DJ walk. If this is what the veteran QB1 market continues to be, then I strongly believe that it would be a mistake for the Giants to pay DJ anything close to what his peers are earning.
IMO, it’s significantly easier to improve the team overall with an inexpensive journeyman QB and reinforcements elsewhere while grooming a young prospect than it is to build a contender around a high-priced QB who requires many of the same reinforcements that the journeyman does.
The problem, IMO, is that even if there is still upside remaining for DJ, that would be baked into his price tag as though it’s already been realized.
Not a lot of success with teams when that big contract hits. Very few ever wind up delivering SB's. The debate is how much is it the team talent or the QB. Not always so clear to answer. Most times it's a very good QB but not good enough that he can overcome team deficiencies come playoff/SB time.
Matt Stafford might be the most expensive QB to ever win a SB. Tom Brady next as I think he got 30m in Tampa. In NE he was on a discount. Then helium ball PM in Denver, Eli '11 and BR's second in Pitt.
Jones, on the other hand, will be high on the list of free agent QBs. If he moves to a team with a better OL and WRs, his play will undoubtedly improve.
Jones, on the other hand, will be high on the list of free agent QBs. If he moves to a team with a better OL and WRs, his play will undoubtedly improve.
Undoubtedly.
How much are you paying DJ and for how long?
Jones, on the other hand, will be high on the list of free agent QBs. If he moves to a team with a better OL and WRs, his play will undoubtedly improve.
Oh my goodness. You paint such a frightening scenario. How could we treat such a precious resource so loosely.
Exactly. And lost in all of this is that Jones is 15th in QBR—while surrounded by little talent on offense.
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Is he really that much better than Jones? Give the kid a solid core around him and let's see how he looks. I'm not sure a better option is available in the draft or FA anyway.
Exactly. And lost in all of this is that Jones is 15th in QBR—while surrounded by little talent on offense.
It’s not so much lost than it is ignored.
The 49ers may miss out on a Super Bowl opportunity because they’ve had to rely on a slightly above average but often injured QB.
We’ll see on the Vikings, and if Cousins turns back into Primetime Kirk during the postseason.
All cautionary tales for the Giants while considering handing out a multi year deal to a mediocre QB.
Yes -- this is a very relevant post right here -- a lot of aspects of the Titan's very much remind me of the Giants
Is he really that much better than Jones? Give the kid a solid core around him and let's see how he looks. I'm not sure a better option is available in the draft or FA anyway.
Exactly. And lost in all of this is that Jones is 15th in QBR—while surrounded by little talent on offense.
It’s not so much lost than it is ignored.
Oddly, in that stat he's behind:
Jacoby Brissett (7th)
Justin Fields (12th)
Marcus Mariota (14th)
Yet barely a day goes by when I don't see people getting shit on for suggesting that Brissett and Mariota are comps for Jones. Just yesterday the very notion of signing Brissett as a bridge QB was laughable to a great many posters.
Mariota just got benched. Fields has been sacked 40 times and is throwing to the legendary receiving corps of Darnell Mooney and Equanimeous St. Brown.
Is it possible that Daniel Jones just isn't very good?
I mean I watched Brady score 2 TDs (3 really as one was called back for a penalty) late in the 4th Quarter to win a game and all I could think to myself is that Daniel Jones just cant do that
You mean DJ isn't as good as the GOAT?