What... I say WHAT is it about this guy that is driving countless BBI threads to near-passionate insanity?
(1) He'll never be good enough to win a Super Bowl?
(2) He can't put a team on his shoulders and just win?
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
(6) He's holding the team back and they need a clean break from him?
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
(8) All of the above?
(9) None of the above?
(10) Something else?
What gives?
Question: Is the current Giants team a "solid" one, or something worse than solid?
I think the answer is because people want DJ to be the next Eli Manning. A goofy, seemingly good guy who works hard, has a bit of an underdog air to him, and is going to pop out of nowhere to win multiple SBs.
On the other hand there are qualities in DJ that are promising and my personal opinion is that I would like to give him every chance with a competent coaching staff and a good supporting cast to see if he can show that kind of manningesque magic.
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of those questions. I would like him back at a very reasonable price. However, I find it unlikely he re-signs for the $15M I am thinking of. I wouldn't pay $25M-$35M to try to find out what he can do with an improving roster and coaching staff. That's money for an established star.
You're right, he's not signing for $15. Any offer he gets is going to be short term under $10 a year. That's the going rate for journeyman replacement level qb's which is what he is. He is more Case Keenum than Tannehill. Tannehill is a much better passer and was in Miami as well.
In league full of men who most fans have little in common with, Jones looks like:
1) the guy they want to be
2) the guy they want their son to be
3) the guy they want their daughter to bring home
Greg, I think some fans root for Jones not just as the quarterback of the Giants, but also because they like the way he carries himself and find him easy to root for.
Other fans are more indifferent outside of rooting for him as a quarterback of their favorite football team, which is fine. I think these fans probably have the more accurate view, since their biases may be at a minimum. They are mostly concerned with the Giants having a quarterback that gives the team the best chance at winning another title.
Then there seems to be another group divided on Jones that treat conversations about Jones as some sort of competition to see who is smarter. Since competition is involved, neither the pro or against crowd will consider changing their POV, at least out loud.
The issue here as I see it is do we feel that DJ is worth investing a shit ton of money in when we have myriad holes on this roster that require immediate attention? At the same time you have Schoen and Dabs and you have to wonder if DJ is the type of player they want at QB for their system. I can't possibly see us investing a ton of valuable money into DJ when his play is often uninspiring and underwhelming. As others have said do we ever see Jones elevating the play of those around him?
In today's NFL to succeed as an NFL QB you have to make plays through the air. More often than not DJ throws check downs and looks to make plays with his legs.
It's a sad, frustrating situation. DJ is good but not great. And honestly not worth the money it would take to retain him. Not when we have so many holes to fill on this roster.
Brother, your post is spot on. I think you nailed it!
No problem.
I literally facepalmed when his name was announced but giving credit where credit is due, he has outplayed Baker Mayfield and Josh Rosen, and he's one of the Giants' few playmakers on offense. He's not Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson, but he's pretty good and seems to still be improving. If he had some playmaking receivers, he'd look even better. His ceiling may be too low, though. There may not be enough "there" there.
If good QBs last 10 years, that means Jones is half way through is timeline without showing he can be a consistently good QB. Not many QBs suddenly show that in year 5.
"I'm sure it will serve Daniel Jones well for the next decade as a backup or lower-middle NFL starter for teams that are not Super Bowl contenders."
So far, Daniel Jones has been a starting NFL QB and neither you nor I know whether his future will be as a starter or a back-up. But given that there are several current starting QBs who are worse than Daniel Jones, I think it's a pretty good bet he'll be a starter somewhere.
Right now, I would not classify Daniel Jones as "lower-middle" tier. He is probably right about smack in the middle. Lastly, do you really know what level of a team Daniel Jones might play for in the future? Are you certain it would never be a Super Bowl contender? Or is that just an opinion?
These are all just opinions and speculation regarding his future. Ask all the questions you want that cannot be definitively answered, it's all just opinions. My opinion is that if Daniel Jones is a starting QB for your team, you are not going to be a factor in the playoffs, even if you happen to get there.
For the record, here's where Daniel Jones ranks in a variety of QB categories:
Y/A: 22nd
TDs: 24th
Rating: 17th
QBR: 16th
Comp %: 14th
Yards/Game: 28th
As I said, lower middle.
I agree with this statement in general, save for one little detail. No one on BBI is saying that Daniel Jones will one day be a "great" QB. I'm sure there are countless threads where posters have said he could be good/very good/solid, or something like that. But a "great QB?" Have you got examples of that?
There are people here who are on record saying they are fine if the Giants pay Daniel Jones $25-30 million per year, or more. The implication could not be more clear there.
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locked in their opinions the night he was drafted.
Yeah, there's something to this. Sy's so-so draft evaluation and the idea that he was "overdrafted" meant some people had their knives out for him before he arrived. There was a brief honeymoon in the "Danny Dimes" era but then came the fumbles — and the Joe Judge regime made everyone look bad. The people who didn't like where he was drafted felt vindicated.
I literally facepalmed when his name was announced but giving credit where credit is due, he has outplayed Baker Mayfield and Josh Rosen, and he's one of the Giants' few playmakers on offense. He's not Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson, but he's pretty good and seems to still be improving. If he had some playmaking receivers, he'd look even better. His ceiling may be too low, though. There may not be enough "there" there.
The issue here as I see it is do we feel that DJ is worth investing a shit ton of money in when we have myriad holes on this roster that require immediate attention? At the same time you have Schoen and Dabs and you have to wonder if DJ is the type of player they want at QB for their system. I can't possibly see us investing a ton of valuable money into DJ when his play is often uninspiring and underwhelming. As others have said do we ever see Jones elevating the play of those around him?
In today's NFL to succeed as an NFL QB you have to make plays through the air. More often than not DJ throws check downs and looks to make plays with his legs.
It's a sad, frustrating situation. DJ is good but not great. And honestly not worth the money it would take to retain him. Not when we have so many holes to fill on this roster.
Help me out with this statement:
"It's a sad, frustrating situation. DJ is good but not great. And honestly not worth the money it would take to retain him. Not when we have so many holes to fill on this roster."
If Daniel Jones is not worth the money it would take to retain him, what you are saying -- in essence -- is that some NFL team will pay him that kind of money. So, why would it be worth it for some other team, but not the Giants? Are you implying that the team that does sign him for fairly big bucks will be a team that has a great salary cap situation and has solid players across the roster?
This was my thought as well. I'd say most of the people on BBI who are over Jones are pretty level-headed posters who are mostly waiting for the hammer to drop in the offseason. If he loses, there's not nearly as much chest thumping as there is if the Giants win.
I think what he's saying amounts to "let someone else overpay Daniel Jones". Just because someone is going to give him that money doesn't mean it has to be the Giants.
The Giants have been bad to mediocre for about a decade now, and during that time we've only really seen just two QB's start for the team - Eli and Jones.
It is very abnormal for a team to commit to a QB for that long (3+ seasons) without them consistently competing for a championship. Whereas most other teams just move on to someone else, regardless of the risk, the Giants have now done it twice in a row - and I think that's really messing with people's minds as they form opinions about Jones.
...so when your team has been bad for this long you either hold out hope that the QB can be the "savior" under the right circumstances, or assign most of the blame for the team's failures to that QB. Again, most other teams don't keep a QB around long enough to get to that point.
Same could be said of the team's 2nd CB, ILB, IOL.
QB is more important than those spots, but the team still needs those spots filled.
My point is, don't reach. Manage the cap and continue to build where/when the best opportunity to improve presents itself.
Agree on all counts!
When we watch Jones and Heinicke on the same field, is there a massive difference between the two? If the answer is supporting cast, well just bring in the cheaper QB (Heinicke) and beef up the supporting cast.
I like that option better than signing Jones at let’s say $22M and then beefing up the supporting cast.
Elite QB’s don’t need everything perfect around them.
Again, great discussion MS!
He’s already reached that win total this year and he’s done that with awful skill players round him. Combine that with all the injuries and this is less than a solid team that he has lead to possibly a winning season
Do we know that if he does, that he will be cheaper than DJ?
So who are the FA's? Putting aside Brady and Lamar:
Jimmy G
Brisset
Geno
Bridgwater
Heinike
Not a very inspiring list. IMO Jones is better than Bridgeater/Heinike/Brisset, and in the same ballpark as Jimmy and Geno (based on his current season). I think if Jimmy G was on the Giants he would have far lower stats, and if Jones was on the 49ers he would have better stats. This is the meaning of a middling QB, they manage games and their stats are very dependent on the talent around them.
So the decision for next season (and likely the following) is do you sign the cheaper of Jimmy G and Jones, or roll with Tyrod. In parallel, in either scenario, you actively try to draft a young QB and hope to win the lottery. This is its own discussion obviously because we have other needs too.
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Jones is a serviceable QB that will get you 6 to 8 wins on a solid team. He isn’t going to elevate a bad team, and won’t take an average team to contention. He really isn’t worth the going rate for a QB on a second contract. Our best bet is going to draft and resetting the the contract to the rookie wage scale.
He’s already reached that win total this year and he’s done that with awful skill players round him. Combine that with all the injuries and this is less than a solid team that he has lead to possibly a winning season
This is why I don't use wins as in the evaluation.
The Giants have won 7 games because they've allowed: 20, 16, 12, 22, 20, 17, and 16 points in those games.
He may turn out like a Moriota or a Tannehill or Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson or a Kerry Collins.
Can he ever be an Eli Manning? I am guessing no but many thought Eli was a bum even during the 2007 season.
We finally seem to have competency in our front office and in our coaching staff. Some young player are starting to become stars in Dex, Love, Thomas. We have a good young nucleus and lots of cap space next year plus a shit ton of players returning from injury next year.
Moving on from Jones could set this team back. Same with Barkley. They are arguably our 2 best offensive players right now.
It comes down to what are you going to do if you don't keep Jones.
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locked in their opinions the night he was drafted.
Yeah, there's something to this. Sy's so-so draft evaluation and the idea that he was "overdrafted" meant some people had their knives out for him before he arrived. There was a brief honeymoon in the "Danny Dimes" era but then came the fumbles — and the Joe Judge regime made everyone look bad. The people who didn't like where he was drafted felt vindicated.
I literally facepalmed when his name was announced but giving credit where credit is due, he has outplayed Baker Mayfield and Josh Rosen, and he's one of the Giants' few playmakers on offense. He's not Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson, but he's pretty good and seems to still be improving. If he had some playmaking receivers, he'd look even better. His ceiling may be too low, though. There may not be enough "there" there.
He’s tough as nails both physically and mentally, works his ass off, and is definitely a leader. He’s going to be a stone cold killer under Daboll. Book it.
Mayfield sucks, Stefanski is a solid offensive minded coach and he gave up on Mayfield. Speaks volumes.
Also he's the starting QB of the New York Giants and you're on a Giants website. Not that hard to believe there will be a large amount of threads about him. Quit acting so surprised.
He's shown that if you design a simple hyper-conservative offense and give him clear instructions not to screw up that he can follow those instructions and not screw up.
That, combined with his Jesus-like personality, Da Vinci-esque work ethic, and his running ability makes him highly valuable as a backup QB on a good team and a useful placeholder for a team that is looking for a starter.
So who are the FA's? Putting aside Brady and Lamar:
Jimmy G
Brisset
Geno
Bridgwater
Heinike
Not a very inspiring list. IMO Jones is better than Bridgeater/Heinike/Brisset, and in the same ballpark as Jimmy and Geno (based on his current season). I think if Jimmy G was on the Giants he would have far lower stats, and if Jones was on the 49ers he would have better stats. This is the meaning of a middling QB, they manage games and their stats are very dependent on the talent around them.
So the decision for next season (and likely the following) is do you sign the cheaper of Jimmy G and Jones, or roll with Tyrod. In parallel, in either scenario, you actively try to draft a young QB and hope to win the lottery. This is its own discussion obviously because we have other needs too.
There are lot of ways for management to play this while they build a team.
Except he's not on the team going forward as of right now.
How much are you signing him for and for long? How much will that impact your ability to go get him those receivers?
It might not be DJ's fault, but his cheap years were wasted. I have no interest in paying full price for a continued evaluation period, and that's all this would be.
(2) He can't put a team on his shoulders and just win?
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
(6) He's holding the team back and they need a clean break from him?
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
(8) All of the above?
(9) None of the above?
(10) Something else?
What gives?
(1) He'll never be good enough to win a Super Bowl?
Trent Dilfer. Brad Johnson. Mark Rypien.
(2) He can't put a team on his shoulders and just win?
That's a myth these days. Even Mahommes showed in his last Superbowl that even with all his magic he could not overcome a shitty OL.
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
His picks and fumbles are way down since Daboll took over.
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
That's a popular opinion, but it there's no evidence to support that he will never improve. He's never had a decent protection, or any consistent, reliable, starting calibre targets to throw to. Not to mention, this is the 3rd or 4th offenses he's had to learn.
(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
I think SOME of the hate is because of this. Some people will never get over that unless he starts putting up passing numbers.
(6) He's holding the team back and they need a clean break from him?
On the contrary, he's been a huge part of the games they've won this year. And has led 5(I think) come-from-behind victories this year. He's the best skill player on the offense other than Barkley who gets stuffed a LOT. His play translates to wins a LOT more than Barkley's.
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
Then who do they play next year? Tyrod Taylor? What FA QB can you get who's not at the end of the road?
They've won too many games to be in a position to draft the next guy this year. If you give away a ton of picks to move up, you can't fix the problems that's holding the offense back under Jones (and Eli's last years, for that matter). So a rookie would fare better with the same problems? Sub-par interior OL, and no #1, #2, #3 WRs.
Tag Jones for next year. As for the money, a QB costs what a QB costs. The Giants have cap space next season. Fix the glaring holes and see how he does. He'll either thrive, or be the bridge to the next guy.
(8) All of the above?
(9) None of the above?
(10) Something else?
The issue a lot of people have with Jones is that he may never be a top-5 guy. FWIW, Kerry Collins wasn't a top-5 guy. Outside of Giants fans, most people don't think Eli and Simms were top-5 guys. (I completely disagree).
Neither is Kirk Cousins or Ryan Tannehill. But you CAN win with these guys, and they can hold down the fort for a while until you're in a position to upgrade. Jones can be AT LEAST that. Fix the problems around him, and you may be pleasantly surprised.
If he gets to FA after the season I expect him to be signed by a QB hungry team in the neighborhood of $25-$30 million a year.
Then the question becomes what does Schoen and Daboll do at the QB position?
IMV, the 2023 QB draft is not that great. I think Young is the best QB in the draft but he is small.
Will Levis and Anthony Richardson have accuracy and terrible decisions making issues.
Don’t know what we do roll with Tyron???
-Jones will sign a short term low aav contract
Both of those options cannot be true at the same time. I also don't believe Jones and his camp would agree to being the bridge to his owj replacement. So JS is really left with commiting to him long term or letting him walk. This 1-3yr $15-20M/yr contract range many seem to want to sign him to is unrealistic
The issue here as I see it is do we feel that DJ is worth investing a shit ton of money in when we have myriad holes on this roster that require immediate attention? At the same time you have Schoen and Dabs and you have to wonder if DJ is the type of player they want at QB for their system. I can't possibly see us investing a ton of valuable money into DJ when his play is often uninspiring and underwhelming. As others have said do we ever see Jones elevating the play of those around him?
In today's NFL to succeed as an NFL QB you have to make plays through the air. More often than not DJ throws check downs and looks to make plays with his legs.
It's a sad, frustrating situation. DJ is good but not great. And honestly not worth the money it would take to retain him. Not when we have so many holes to fill on this roster.
Bold -- this is a good post -- I would add the following. When he does take off with his legs, he has good speed and long legs, but he looks gawky/awkward, and this has digressed from the beginning of the season to now making me very, very uneasy about what's going to be the result of his run.
Also I think his throws look awkward too. He is very often not leading runners to enhance YAC. He's become more like the Garrett coached put it on a spot and move to the next play passer, instead of looking to make a play in stride with the receiver's legs.
Every game looks the same, the difference being on whether his legs and/or Saquon's legs can carry the offense, but the low scoring, lack of sustained drives, and now the turnovers have been happening with more regularity. The awkwardness has increased and is translating to the rest of the offense. I have lost my confidence that this is going anywhere and that the guy can be anything more than just average.
This pretty much supports my point though. Before this season most wouldn't have even put Geno in Jones category. However as a "game manager, middle of the pack" guy he is just a cog in the offense and greatly affected by his surrounding players. Give him Metcalf, Lofton, a strong running game, and all of a sudden his stats increase. Before this season his stats were lower. Did he suddenly figure it out, no he just got better players around him. I would say the exact thing about other guys like Tannehill and Goff. Are they good or average, it depends who is around them. Look at Wilson, he looked completely different on Seattle (where Geno is now lighting it up) vs Denver (crap).
There are realistically only maybe 6 or so QB's who can lead a team and play at a high level no matter what. The remainders are Jones/Tannehill/Goff/Carr/etc/etc. These guys can win depending on how good the players around them are, and their stats will vary based on that. Jones would be throwing for more yards on other teams, just like Geno would be throwing for less on the Giants
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He’s not in the same conversation as Geno. If we’re taking full careers into the picture then yes.
This pretty much supports my point though. Before this season most wouldn't have even put Geno in Jones category. However as a "game manager, middle of the pack" guy he is just a cog in the offense and greatly affected by his surrounding players. Give him Metcalf, Lofton, a strong running game, and all of a sudden his stats increase. Before this season his stats were lower. Did he suddenly figure it out, no he just got better players around him. I would say the exact thing about other guys like Tannehill and Goff. Are they good or average, it depends who is around them. Look at Wilson, he looked completely different on Seattle (where Geno is now lighting it up) vs Denver (crap).
There are realistically only maybe 6 or so QB's who can lead a team and play at a high level no matter what. The remainders are Jones/Tannehill/Goff/Carr/etc/etc. These guys can win depending on how good the players around them are, and their stats will vary based on that. Jones would be throwing for more yards on other teams, just like Geno would be throwing for less on the Giants
The biggest problem with this assessment is that it is conjecture. Me personally, at this point I'd rather build the talent on the team and not heavily invest in conjecture.
There are plenty of examples of average QBs who have talent around them and who still can't get to where we would want them to go. So if you invest money in Jones, at the expense of other talent on the team, and that is the result, you are investing in years more of agony.
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He finally has a good HC and OC to work with. Go get him a couple of receivers and let’s move forward.
Except he's not on the team going forward as of right now.
How much are you signing him for and for long? How much will that impact your ability to go get him those receivers?
It might not be DJ's fault, but his cheap years were wasted. I have no interest in paying full price for a continued evaluation period, and that's all this would be.
That’s the tricky part. At this point I wish they would have picked up his 5th year option. Could of tagged Barkley and watched how both perform with another draft class that presumably brings a talent infusion to the offense.
If they can get Jones signed to a 3 year deal without breaking the bank I’d probably do it. How he closes out the season will be key in terms of price. I’m just concerned they will enter the QB abyss and struggle to find a better option in the draft.
This sword cuts both ways, positive and negative.
Decision is going to be made largely blind, like it or not.
I know that as a fan of both teams, I would love to see what DJ could do with the Jets offense using his legs to move the chains if need be or to create some relatively easy red zone 7s.
There might be some other reasons,but if you were to conduct a survey,the lies might tell you that.
I am agreeing, read my post again. Thats my point, a lot of these guys are the same and dependent on the surrounding talent. So it really doesn't matter much if we had Geno, Jones, Jimmy G, or whoever. We would still need a much better team around them. So just take the best deal.
(1) He'll never be good enough to win a Super Bowl?
Trent Dilfer. Brad Johnson. Mark Rypien.
The existence of exceptions doesn't prove that Jones can ever reach that level.
His picks and fumbles are way down since Daboll took over.
He's still slow to process and has a long-ish delivery.
That's a popular opinion, but it there's no evidence to support that he will never improve. He's never had a decent protection, or any consistent, reliable, starting calibre targets to throw to. Not to mention, this is the 3rd or 4th offenses he's had to learn.
Those are excuses, not evidence.
I think SOME of the hate is because of this. Some people will never get over that unless he starts putting up passing numbers.
Yes, he's held to the standard of his draft position, but what's more important going forward is how much he's actually worth as a player.
Then who do they play next year? Tyrod Taylor? What FA QB can you get who's not at the end of the road?
Sure. Why not? Tyrod Taylor is a perfectly adequate QB who can hold down the fort for a year while the Giants spend their money elsewhere to build up the roster.