What... I say WHAT is it about this guy that is driving countless BBI threads to near-passionate insanity?
(1) He'll never be good enough to win a Super Bowl?
(2) He can't put a team on his shoulders and just win?
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
(6) He's holding the team back and they need a clean break from him?
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
(8) All of the above?
(9) None of the above?
(10) Something else?
What gives?
This sword cuts both ways, positive and negative.
Decision is going to be made largely blind, like it or not.
I know that as a fan of both teams, I would love to see what DJ could do with the Jets offense using his legs to move the chains if need be or to create some relatively easy red zone 7s.
this is all very true -- so how far would you go to invest in the last paragraph?
Moving on from Jones could set this team back. Same with Barkley. They are arguably our 2 best offensive players right now.
It comes down to what are you going to do if you don't keep Jones.
I trust this regime to draft guys who'll develop, but any developmental prospect is a crapshoot. You hope you're drafting Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes, but sometimes you get Baker Mayfield or Josh Rosen instead. (Both may still have time to revive their careers, but you get the idea.)
Sure. Why not? Tyrod Taylor is a perfectly adequate QB who can hold down the fort for a year while the Giants spend their money elsewhere to build up the roster.
Hopefully Taylor can make it three plays next year. Less turnovers and getting crippled running for you life behind crappy talent would be nice too.
There are two middle groups - one that debates whether or not Jones is good enough to invest a large contract on and another that feels there hasn't been enough reliable info to properly assess. Tons of merit to discuss both concepts.
There are likely more people in these latter groups but the first two camps make any critical analysis and discussion on him impossible. I think it would be fun to assess the good and the bad, but you can't really do that here because there will be a vocal minority that says anything he does sucks and another that will chime in and defend him no matter what.
As for cheering for him.. He's a NY Giant, shouldn't we all cheer for him even if we think he's not the long term answer? I even cheered for CC fucking Brown!
Seattle had a outstanding draft last year with multiple impact players.
Seattle had a outstanding draft last year with multiple impact players.
Seattle really is a study on middle of the pack QBs. Russel Wilson does really well there, and Geno is basically pegged as a career backup with no real success. Then Wilson moved on to Denver, and is now surrounding by a much worse cast, and his play falls off dramatically. Geno on the other hand, moves into the starting position throwing to good receivers and supported by a strong running game, and flourishes. Now he is considered a good QB.
I think most NFL HC/GM already know this. Outside of the elite QBs, most others are successful or not based on their surrounding team and the system they are placed in.
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(1) He'll never be good enough to win a Super Bowl?
(2) He can't put a team on his shoulders and just win?
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
(6) He's holding the team back and they need a clean break from him?
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
(8) All of the above?
(9) None of the above?
(10) Something else?
What gives?
(1) He'll never be good enough to win a Super Bowl?
Trent Dilfer. Brad Johnson. Mark Rypien.
(2) He can't put a team on his shoulders and just win?
That's a myth these days. Even Mahommes showed in his last Superbowl that even with all his magic he could not overcome a shitty OL.
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
His picks and fumbles are way down since Daboll took over.
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
That's a popular opinion, but it there's no evidence to support that he will never improve. He's never had a decent protection, or any consistent, reliable, starting calibre targets to throw to. Not to mention, this is the 3rd or 4th offenses he's had to learn.
(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
I think SOME of the hate is because of this. Some people will never get over that unless he starts putting up passing numbers.
(6) He's holding the team back and they need a clean break from him?
On the contrary, he's been a huge part of the games they've won this year. And has led 5(I think) come-from-behind victories this year. He's the best skill player on the offense other than Barkley who gets stuffed a LOT. His play translates to wins a LOT more than Barkley's.
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
Then who do they play next year? Tyrod Taylor? What FA QB can you get who's not at the end of the road?
They've won too many games to be in a position to draft the next guy this year. If you give away a ton of picks to move up, you can't fix the problems that's holding the offense back under Jones (and Eli's last years, for that matter). So a rookie would fare better with the same problems? Sub-par interior OL, and no #1, #2, #3 WRs.
Tag Jones for next year. As for the money, a QB costs what a QB costs. The Giants have cap space next season. Fix the glaring holes and see how he does. He'll either thrive, or be the bridge to the next guy.
(8) All of the above?
(9) None of the above?
(10) Something else?
The issue a lot of people have with Jones is that he may never be a top-5 guy. FWIW, Kerry Collins wasn't a top-5 guy. Outside of Giants fans, most people don't think Eli and Simms were top-5 guys. (I completely disagree).
Neither is Kirk Cousins or Ryan Tannehill. But you CAN win with these guys, and they can hold down the fort for a while until you're in a position to upgrade. Jones can be AT LEAST that. Fix the problems around him, and you may be pleasantly surprised.
Good post
Agree David B with very good thoughts.
In comment 15936948 David B. said:
Quote:
(1) He'll never be good enough to win a Super Bowl?
(2) He can't put a team on his shoulders and just win?
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
(6) He's holding the team back and they need a clean break from him?
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
(8) All of the above?
(9) None of the above?
(10) Something else?
What gives?
(1) He'll never be good enough to win a Super Bowl?
Trent Dilfer. Brad Johnson. Mark Rypien.
Any examples within the past two decades? And which do you think is more difficult: acquiring a truly elite QB, or building an all-time great defense? Because the latter is what all of your examples have in common.
(2) He can't put a team on his shoulders and just win?
That's a myth these days. Even Mahommes showed in his last Superbowl that even with all his magic he could not overcome a shitty OL.
Mahomes still reached the Super Bowl with that shitty OL, as did Burrow, with an even worse OL, a year later. If DJ was losing Super Bowls because of a bad OL, I think most fans would be eager to sign him.
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
His picks and fumbles are way down since Daboll took over.
His int % is decreasing by the same amount that it has decreased every year since he was a rookie. Beyond that, BFD. Limiting turnovers is barely a consolation prize for not scoring touchdowns.
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
That's a popular opinion, but it there's no evidence to support that he will never improve. He's never had a decent protection, or any consistent, reliable, starting calibre targets to throw to. Not to mention, this is the 3rd or 4th offenses he's had to learn.
There's no concrete evidence either way on DJ's future performance/potential matrix, but there's definitely ample evidence to suggest that his cap cost will increase by 3-4x. Is his level of play going to improve by 3-4x? No. So he'll be a worse value, and he hasn't exactly been a steal so far.
(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
I think SOME of the hate is because of this. Some people will never get over that unless he starts putting up passing numbers.
This is a red herring and doesn't matter.
(6) He's holding the team back and they need a clean break from him?
On the contrary, he's been a huge part of the games they've won this year. And has led 5(I think) come-from-behind victories this year. He's the best skill player on the offense other than Barkley who gets stuffed a LOT. His play translates to wins a LOT more than Barkley's.
You can only come from behind when you play from behind. QBs that lead prolific offenses sometimes don't get 5 come from behind opportunities in a season, so it doesn't make any sense to applaud DJ for something that would be precluded in the first place by having a better offense.
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
Then who do they play next year? Tyrod Taylor? What FA QB can you get who's not at the end of the road?
Any of them. A placeholder/bridge QB is fungible. There are only two *logical* outcomes here: either DJ has cemented himself as the franchise QB, and therefore should be signed long-term (4+ years) at full QB1 price ($30M+ AAV); OR, DJ is a journeyman placeholder/bridge QB who just hasn't yet begun the journeyman QB journey. Unless you're willing to pony up the full price for DJ because he's unequivocally the guy, you shouldn't get hung up on which QB is chosen as the bridge, because the very concept of a bridge QB rests upon that QB being replaced in the near term.
They've won too many games to be in a position to draft the next guy this year. If you give away a ton of picks to move up, you can't fix the problems that's holding the offense back under Jones (and Eli's last years, for that matter). So a rookie would fare better with the same problems? Sub-par interior OL, and no #1, #2, #3 WRs.
Where was Kansas City picking initially in the draft when they chose Mahomes? Where was Buffalo picking initially in the draft when they chose Allen?
Tag Jones for next year. As for the money, a QB costs what a QB costs. The Giants have cap space next season. Fix the glaring holes and see how he does. He'll either thrive, or be the bridge to the next guy.
(8) All of the above?
(9) None of the above?
(10) Something else?
The issue a lot of people have with Jones is that he may never be a top-5 guy. FWIW, Kerry Collins wasn't a top-5 guy. Outside of Giants fans, most people don't think Eli and Simms were top-5 guys. (I completely disagree).
Neither is Kirk Cousins or Ryan Tannehill. But you CAN win with these guys, and they can hold down the fort for a while until you're in a position to upgrade. Jones can be AT LEAST that. Fix the problems around him, and you may be pleasantly surprised.
All of this to just suggest tagging DJ? Has it occurred to you that DJ simply does not possess the requisite skill set that BD/MK want from their QB? Should they pay twice the bridge QB rate for DJ on the FT, and/or be handcuffed from installing their preferred offense longer than necessary just to be fair to DJ because he got a raw deal thus far?
I can see the appeal of the tag, but I think that ship sailed when Barkley didn't sign an extension during the bye week - the tag is very possibly now earmarked for Saquon.
Beyond all of that, though, it just feels like Giants fans embrace inertia sometimes.
Daniel has played amongst maybe the worst roster in the NFL, for most of his career, certainly one of the worst.
Yet this fact, for which the critics have no answer, gets dismissed because they are sick of the excuses.
It s so ridiculous that even a game like last Sunday, where he was obviously the best player on the offense, gets put into the category of he stunk.
Victor Cruz after the game questioned why Slayton turned to face the quarterback instead of finishing his route. Yet even here Daniel takes the hit by his critics.
He made two plays late in the game that should have ended the game, that were negated by bad and dumb plays by his teammates, this gets ignored and every bad pass, sack, fumble gets put into the category of “see he stinks “, even though quarterbacks all over the league, every week, make similar mistakes, even the great ones.
I feel confident Jones will be back next season, we ll see if I m correct.
Daniel has played amongst maybe the worst roster in the NFL, for most of his career, certainly one of the worst.
This has always been my question for fans whose arguments rely on this excuse:
If the rest of the roster was so bad that DJ couldn't succeed, why are you trusting the same scouts and GM who built that roster to have gotten the DJ choice correct in the first place? Why is he the exception?
The only QB drafted before him his year was Kyler Murray, and DJ has not outperformed Murray.
But, for argument's sake, let's agree that DJ has indeed outperformed Murray. Murray just signed a 5y contract for $230M. If DJ has outperformed him, how much are you paying DJ?
He made two plays late in the game that should have ended the game, that were negated by bad and dumb plays by his teammates, this gets ignored and every bad pass, sack, fumble gets put into the category of “see he stinks “, even though quarterbacks all over the league, every week, make similar mistakes, even the great ones.
I feel confident Jones will be back next season, we ll see if I m correct.
To be fair, he also made a throw that could have ended the game if not dropped by Washington. Can’t only count the missed plays by the Giants. Washington shot themselves in the foot a lot too on Sunday.
Daniel has played amongst maybe the worst roster in the NFL, for most of his career, certainly one of the worst.
Yet this fact, for which the critics have no answer, gets dismissed because they are sick of the excuses.
I'll give you an answer. Yes his supporting cast has stunk. I don't happen to believe that with an improved group around him that his performance would improve dramatically enough to be a longterm answer, and I'm not willing to delay the decision indefinitely until poor little Danny's luck changes.
Receivers drop passes and commit stupid penalties for those guys too.
You have to be a lot better everywhere else to win a Super Bowl with Dilfer (like having one of the 2-3 best defenses in NFL history) than you do to win one with a real franchise QB (like 2011 Eli).
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Jones has outperformed all the QBs drafted before him his year which many on this site thought were the next coming & did it with lesser talent across the board and prehistoric play calling for most of his career with the Giants. Just sayin'.
The only QB drafted before him his year was Kyler Murray, and DJ has not outperformed Murray.
But, for argument's sake, let's agree that DJ has indeed outperformed Murray. Murray just signed a 5y contract for $230M. If DJ has outperformed him, how much are you paying DJ?
The money is the problem. I have read several posts more or less concluding that we’ll get some bargain price to keep DJ because he hasn’t fully proven himself yet.
However, Jones’ agent will be just as quick to cite all of the coaching changes, the inconsistent line, the lack of weapons, and Jones’ improvement this year when negotiating with the Giants as the fans who say the same thing in defense of DJ.
The only way they are retaining Jones at a modest price is if no other teams are interested in him. That seems unlikely given the amount of QB instability that exists in the league right now. After you move past the upper tier of QB’s (Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, Jackson, Burrow) the position really falls of a cliff in terms of consistency and elite traits. Brady, Rodgers, and Wilson look like they are about cooked. Players like Hurts and Lawrence have the potential to move into that upper tier of QB’s, but they aren’t there yet.
I'd take my chances with Dan Marino or Warren Moon instead of hoping I can assemble one of the NFL's best defensive teams in history to drag a corpse at QB to the Super Bowl.
rsjem1979 : 11:47 am : link : reply
In comment 15936948 David B. said:
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(1) He'll never be good enough to win a Super Bowl?
Trent Dilfer. Brad Johnson. Mark Rypien.
The existence of exceptions doesn't prove that Jones can ever reach that level.
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(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
His picks and fumbles are way down since Daboll took over.
He's still slow to process and has a long-ish delivery.
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(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
That's a popular opinion, but it there's no evidence to support that he will never improve. He's never had a decent protection, or any consistent, reliable, starting calibre targets to throw to. Not to mention, this is the 3rd or 4th offenses he's had to learn.
Those are excuses, not evidence.
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(5) He should have never been taken with the 6th pick?
I think SOME of the hate is because of this. Some people will never get over that unless he starts putting up passing numbers.
Yes, he's held to the standard of his draft position, but what's more important going forward is how much he's actually worth as a player.
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(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
Then who do they play next year? Tyrod Taylor? What FA QB can you get who's not at the end of the road?
Sure. Why not? Tyrod Taylor is a perfectly adequate QB who can hold down the fort for a year while the Giants spend their money elsewhere to build up the roster.
1) The existence of exceptions doesn't prove that Jones can ever reach that level.
Who said I have to prove it? The best TEAM usually wins SBs. Not always the best QB.
(3) He has fundamental flaws that can never be fixed?
His picks and fumbles are way down since Daboll took over.
He's still slow to process and has a long-ish delivery.
Says who?
Can't do much about the delivery, though it seems to me, the ball's coming out fast. He's been much more decisive. He converted a LOT of 3rd downs this year -- not just with his feet. Slow to process? Maybe he's waiting for his scrub level receivers to get open. I don't know whether he's slow to process or not, but you don't either.
(4) He will always be a mediocrity no matter what?
That's a popular opinion, but it there's no evidence to support that he will never improve. He's never had a decent protection, or any consistent, reliable, starting calibre targets to throw to. Not to mention, this is the 3rd or 4th offenses he's had to learn.
Those are excuses, not evidence.
No, those are facts, not excuses. You want to dismiss facts, you can, but there's certainly ZERO evidence that "he'll never improve."
On the contrary, if you haven't seen improvement this year under Daboll, you really haven't been paying attention. He's settled into this offense. His turnovers are down. He's engineered several come-from-behind wins. He's been more responsible for the wins than he has been for the losses.
(7) He's simply not worth a second contract?
Then who do they play next year? Tyrod Taylor? What FA QB can you get who's not at the end of the road?
Sure. Why not? Tyrod Taylor is a perfectly adequate QB who can hold down the fort for a year while the Giants spend their money elsewhere to build up the roster.
Ha. LOL. Taylor isn't even Jones. And (all of you) stop acting like it's your money they're spending. You think a new GM and HC who are on the clock want to waste a year of their contracts hitching their saddle to a career backup?
And you don't BUILD the roster by spending money in FA. You fix holes. You build through the draft.
To the original point of the thread, the REAL issue; the thing that causes all of these Jones threads, is that 4 years in, WE -- outside of the Giants facility -- still don't know if Jones the long-term answer. That's what truly bugs everyone!
Everyone has their opinion.
FWIW, My opinion is:
I don't know -- and neither to ANY of you.
It would be great if he becomes "the guy," but I'm certainly not counting on it. I am FINE with tagging him, and letting be the bridge QB to the next guy -- because I don't see any better options available for next year.
But I guarantee you that Daboll and Schoen will have their answer by the end of the season. And even if their answer is he's not the guy, they may well have to ride Jones until they have a better option. Just like the 25+ other teams in the league who don't have an Allen or a Mahommes. The Giants won't be riding Tyrod 'Suitcase' Taylor unless something goes very wrong.
There are plenty of examples of average QBs who have talent around them and who still can't get to where we would want them to go. So if you invest money in Jones, at the expense of other talent on the team, and that is the result, you are investing in years more of agony.
Which average QB are we signing next year for less money than what we would pay Jones? How much less than Jones and is that difference worth having a new QB coming in to try to learn and win with a new system.
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and the Giants kept losing
Daniel has played amongst maybe the worst roster in the NFL, for most of his career, certainly one of the worst.
This has always been my question for fans whose arguments rely on this excuse:
If the rest of the roster was so bad that DJ couldn't succeed, why are you trusting the same scouts and GM who built that roster to have gotten the DJ choice correct in the first place? Why is he the exception?
Because I ve seen what this collection of misfits were without him
They hit on a few players, Lawerence, Williams, Thomas, I think Jones is one too.
Although I do not think he was worthy of the # 6 pick. I also understand he is not Josh Allen or Herbert, but passing in those two guys is another story.
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In comment 15937092 joeinpa said:
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and the Giants kept losing
Daniel has played amongst maybe the worst roster in the NFL, for most of his career, certainly one of the worst.
This has always been my question for fans whose arguments rely on this excuse:
If the rest of the roster was so bad that DJ couldn't succeed, why are you trusting the same scouts and GM who built that roster to have gotten the DJ choice correct in the first place? Why is he the exception?
Because I ve seen what this collection of misfits were without him
They hit on a few players, Lawerence, Williams, Thomas, I think Jones is one too.
Although I do not think he was worthy of the # 6 pick. I also understand he is not Josh Allen or Herbert, but passing in those two guys is another story.
Dunk, these are different scouts and executives than the ones that massacred the roster.
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In comment 15937092 joeinpa said:
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and the Giants kept losing
Daniel has played amongst maybe the worst roster in the NFL, for most of his career, certainly one of the worst.
This has always been my question for fans whose arguments rely on this excuse:
If the rest of the roster was so bad that DJ couldn't succeed, why are you trusting the same scouts and GM who built that roster to have gotten the DJ choice correct in the first place? Why is he the exception?
Because I ve seen what this collection of misfits were without him
They hit on a few players, Lawerence, Williams, Thomas, I think Jones is one too.
Although I do not think he was worthy of the # 6 pick. I also understand he is not Josh Allen or Herbert, but passing in those two guys is another story.
I might add, I witness the he last 4 years of Eli s career with a crap roster
Ha. LOL. Taylor isn't even Jones. And (all of you) stop acting like it's your money they're spending. You think a new GM and HC who are on the clock want to waste a year of their contracts hitching their saddle to a career backup?
I certainly hope they aren't operating a long term plan with the 2023 season record in mind. The process that is hopefully in place is one with a goal of rebuilding the roster in all areas to compete for several years.
Perhaps you should stop worrying about "next year" so specifically and look ahead to the next 3-5 years.
To the original point of the thread, the REAL issue; the thing that causes all of these Jones threads, is that 4 years in, WE -- outside of the Giants facility -- still don't know if Jones the long-term answer. That's what truly bugs everyone!
No, what bugs a lot of people is that others don't believe Daniel Jones will be the answer and want to move on from him. These are the people who make a litany of excuses for Jones, which proves nothing more than the regime that chose Jones also built a crap roster.
I don't think Daniel Jones will ever be good enough to reach the heights we all want. I'm allowed to hold that opinion, even if you don't think it's fair at this juncture.
He may turn out like a Moriota or a Tannehill or Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson or a Kerry Collins.
Can he ever be an Eli Manning? I am guessing no but many thought Eli was a bum even during the 2007 season.
We finally seem to have competency in our front office and in our coaching staff. Some young player are starting to become stars in Dex, Love, Thomas. We have a good young nucleus and lots of cap space next year plus a shit ton of players returning from injury next year.
Moving on from Jones could set this team back. Same with Barkley. They are arguably our 2 best offensive players right now.
It comes down to what are you going to do if you don't keep Jones.
I see this quite differently, I think DJ will turn down any offer from Giants and become a FA for the following reasons.
1. Giants never gave him the parts to help him succeed.
2. Giants did not pick up his option and left him in limbo.
3. Many Giants fans unfairly criticizing his play.
I believe there are at least several teams that will be happy to pay his price in this QB starved league. I think he will come out of this very well, not the Giants.
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Some say he isn't worth the investment and that is easy to say since he has had little success here.
He may turn out like a Moriota or a Tannehill or Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson or a Kerry Collins.
Can he ever be an Eli Manning? I am guessing no but many thought Eli was a bum even during the 2007 season.
We finally seem to have competency in our front office and in our coaching staff. Some young player are starting to become stars in Dex, Love, Thomas. We have a good young nucleus and lots of cap space next year plus a shit ton of players returning from injury next year.
Moving on from Jones could set this team back. Same with Barkley. They are arguably our 2 best offensive players right now.
It comes down to what are you going to do if you don't keep Jones.
I see this quite differently, I think DJ will turn down any offer from Giants and become a FA for the following reasons.
1. Giants never gave him the parts to help him succeed.
2. Giants did not pick up his option and left him in limbo.
3. Many Giants fans unfairly criticizing his play.
I believe there are at least several teams that will be happy to pay his price in this QB starved league. I think he will come out of this very well, not the Giants.
This is an interesting take. Most posts always make this assumption like DJ is lucky to be here, etc. But the Giants have really done him no favors from a development standpoint. He may want a fresh start.
The ones who chose DJ are the same ones who cratered the roster. They proved at every turn that they couldn't identify good football players to save their lives, and yet fans want to cling to the belief that in spite of fucking up every decision they made, they somehow got the most important decision correct.
Talk about wishful thinking.
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In comment 15937092 joeinpa said:
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and the Giants kept losing
Daniel has played amongst maybe the worst roster in the NFL, for most of his career, certainly one of the worst.
This has always been my question for fans whose arguments rely on this excuse:
If the rest of the roster was so bad that DJ couldn't succeed, why are you trusting the same scouts and GM who built that roster to have gotten the DJ choice correct in the first place? Why is he the exception?
Because I ve seen what this collection of misfits were without him
They hit on a few players, Lawerence, Williams, Thomas, I think Jones is one too.
Although I do not think he was worthy of the # 6 pick. I also understand he is not Josh Allen or Herbert, but passing in those two guys is another story.
You saw them with Mike Glennon and Jake Fromm. Cool, DJ is better than Glennon and Fromm.
To each their own, but I flinch at the idea of paying big money on the basis of hope.
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Dunk, these are different scouts and executives than the ones that massacred the roster.
The ones who chose DJ are the same ones who cratered the roster. They proved at every turn that they couldn't identify good football players to save their lives, and yet fans want to cling to the belief that in spite of fucking up every decision they made, they somehow got the most important decision correct.
Talk about wishful thinking.
They got Dexter Lawrence right.... Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every so often. Julian Love isn't too bad. Once the guy is here it really doesn't matter who picked them.
Daniel has played amongst maybe the worst roster in the NFL, for most of his career, certainly one of the worst.
Yet this fact, for which the critics have no answer, gets dismissed because they are sick of the excuses.
It s so ridiculous that even a game like last Sunday, where he was obviously the best player on the offense, gets put into the category of he stunk.
Victor Cruz after the game questioned why Slayton turned to face the quarterback instead of finishing his route. Yet even here Daniel takes the hit by his critics.
He made two plays late in the game that should have ended the game, that were negated by bad and dumb plays by his teammates, this gets ignored and every bad pass, sack, fumble gets put into the category of “see he stinks “, even though quarterbacks all over the league, every week, make similar mistakes, even the great ones.
I feel confident Jones will be back next season, we ll see if I m correct.
Great post, telling it like it is.
First of all, the salary cap is what matters, not whose money is being spent. As soon as you went there with the "it's not your money" argument, I could peg you as an unserious participant in this discussion, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering with this anyway. Regardless, it does not logically compute that someone could simultaneously be in favor of retaining DJ and yet concern themselves with JS/BD hitching their wagon to a career backup.
There is a very real possibility that DJ is a career backup.
Maybe they don't trust the receivers, TEs and the interior OL. The coaches are people too, this ineptitude by a lot of the guys on the field has to play on their minds somewhat. I knew Judge was going to pay dearly for those two QB sneaks last year but I can't say I was shocked by it, I can't remember if it was Glennon or Fromm but that was the most pathetic offense i have ever seen, they were down by the goal line and were still somewhat in the game. It wasn't what I would have done due to the semantics but the ineptitude of the Offense clearly led to that decision
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of those questions. I would like him back at a very reasonable price. However, I find it unlikely he re-signs for the $15M I am thinking of. I wouldn't pay $25M-$35M to try to find out what he can do with an improving roster and coaching staff. That's money for an established star.
You're right, he's not signing for $15. Any offer he gets is going to be short term under $10 a year. That's the going rate for journeyman replacement level qb's which is what he is. He is more Case Keenum than Tannehill. Tannehill is a much better passer and was in Miami as well.
The questions about Jones are very similar to the questions about Tannehill in Miami. Tannehill doesn’t run as well, had a better pocket to throw from, and had equal or better receivers. Barkley is a better RB than anyone that was on the Dolphins. Fans were happy to see him go but they were and are still looking for the next Dan Marino. Miami has settled for an injury prone but accurate passing game manager, upgraded the offensive line through the draft AND free agency, upgraded the RBs, dramatically upgraded the WRs, and built a solid defense. Giants aren’t close to having the same team the Dolphins have now.
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Why are you so confident Jones will be back when you yourself said the coaching staff doesn’t trust the offense?
Maybe they don't trust the receivers, TEs and the interior OL. The coaches are people too, this ineptitude by a lot of the guys on the field has to play on their minds somewhat. I knew Judge was going to pay dearly for those two QB sneaks last year but I can't say I was shocked by it, I can't remember if it was Glennon or Fromm but that was the most pathetic offense i have ever seen, they were down by the goal line and were still somewhat in the game. It wasn't what I would have done due to the semantics but the ineptitude of the Offense clearly led to that decision
That wasn't an incorrect call based upon the knowledge of having a bad offense, that was a full mental psychotic break by Judge and a dysfunctional org.
Yeah...yeah...the whole team has sucked while he's here...we all get it.
Teams like the Titans/49ers/Vikings/etc deal with QBs like Tannehill/Jimmy G/Kirk Cousins b/c they are still winning games.
Everyone likes to talk about how long it took Simms to win around here...bro...that was in 1979.
In today's NFL - no one is patient with their QB anymore. It seems to me like the only fan base that sticks to a QB that loses as much as DJ is...well...this one.
It's not hard to figure out.
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In comment 15937218 Sean said:
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Why are you so confident Jones will be back when you yourself said the coaching staff doesn’t trust the offense?
Maybe they don't trust the receivers, TEs and the interior OL. The coaches are people too, this ineptitude by a lot of the guys on the field has to play on their minds somewhat. I knew Judge was going to pay dearly for those two QB sneaks last year but I can't say I was shocked by it, I can't remember if it was Glennon or Fromm but that was the most pathetic offense i have ever seen, they were down by the goal line and were still somewhat in the game. It wasn't what I would have done due to the semantics but the ineptitude of the Offense clearly led to that decision
That wasn't an incorrect call based upon the knowledge of having a bad offense, that was a full mental psychotic break by Judge and a dysfunctional org.
Again I wouldn't have done it, but it was really one play. The first QB sneak was fine and nobody cared, teams do it all the time to get off the goal line. The second one was the issue because it indicated surrender, it got Judge fired and likely brought Taylor here.
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In comment 15937188 Walker Gillette said:
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Dunk, these are different scouts and executives than the ones that massacred the roster.
The ones who chose DJ are the same ones who cratered the roster. They proved at every turn that they couldn't identify good football players to save their lives, and yet fans want to cling to the belief that in spite of fucking up every decision they made, they somehow got the most important decision correct.
Talk about wishful thinking.
They got Dexter Lawrence right.... Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every so often. Julian Love isn't too bad. Once the guy is here it really doesn't matter who picked them.
It does matter who picked the player if that player is scheme-dependent. And we're seeing with the offense this year that the scheme is being stripped down to the frame in order to function at all with the ragtag bunch left behind by Gettleman & Co.
What's debatable is to what extent DJ's skills are the cause of the stripped-down offense, and to what extent DJ's play is the effect of the stripped-down offense. Only the key stakeholders inside NYG HQ know the answer to that.
What we do know is that DJ is very clearly not a scheme-agnostic stud QB like the very top of the elite tier are - that should come as no surprise to anyone here, and should not be a controversial take (though I'm sure there are some posters here who will absolutely try to claim otherwise).
Given that DJ is, like many QBs in the lower/middle tier, scheme-dependent, it does bear some consideration to wonder if JS/BD/MK see DJ as a scheme fit for the offense they want to be deploying, rather than the one we are currently seeing. I have a hard time believing that a HC and OC who come from two of the most prolific passing units in the NFL are somehow running a throwback running offense purely by choice.
I think their hands are tied right now, for a variety of reasons, and it almost doesn't matter whether DJ falls on the cause side or the effect side, because the end result is the same: JS/BD/MK will still be projecting a QB who is not currently under contract into their preferred offensive scheme, and there will be zero QBs on the market (including DJ) who will have demonstrated experience/success operating within that scheme.
Whether they decide to tag DJ, sign him long-term, attempt to bring him back as a bridge, replace him with some other veteran placeholder, and/or go draft a QB, whatever, the reality is this, IMO: we don't know what their prototypical QB is, and which option available to them will be the closest approximation of what they desire in a QB, at whatever price that they feel is appropriate.
I don't expect JS/BD to give any sort of incumbent advantage to DJ. If they believe he's the guy, they'll sign him long-term at relatively big money. If they want to make it a priority to keep DJ but are far apart from his side on dollars and years, they'll tag him. If they believe he's a fungible bridge QB, they'll probably set their price for a placeholder (regardless of which one it ends up being), and offer that to DJ and to other QB alternatives, and let the market sort itself out.
In that latter scenario, it doesn't matter whether they end up with DJ or Andy Dalton or Geno Smith or whoever, because they're acknowledging by virtue of the contract itself that none of them are the long-term answer.
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In comment 15937210 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15937188 Walker Gillette said:
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Dunk, these are different scouts and executives than the ones that massacred the roster.
The ones who chose DJ are the same ones who cratered the roster. They proved at every turn that they couldn't identify good football players to save their lives, and yet fans want to cling to the belief that in spite of fucking up every decision they made, they somehow got the most important decision correct.
Talk about wishful thinking.
They got Dexter Lawrence right.... Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every so often. Julian Love isn't too bad. Once the guy is here it really doesn't matter who picked them.
It does matter who picked the player if that player is scheme-dependent. And we're seeing with the offense this year that the scheme is being stripped down to the frame in order to function at all with the ragtag bunch left behind by Gettleman & Co.
What's debatable is to what extent DJ's skills are the cause of the stripped-down offense, and to what extent DJ's play is the effect of the stripped-down offense. Only the key stakeholders inside NYG HQ know the answer to that.
What we do know is that DJ is very clearly not a scheme-agnostic stud QB like the very top of the elite tier are - that should come as no surprise to anyone here, and should not be a controversial take (though I'm sure there are some posters here who will absolutely try to claim otherwise).
Given that DJ is, like many QBs in the lower/middle tier, scheme-dependent, it does bear some consideration to wonder if JS/BD/MK see DJ as a scheme fit for the offense they want to be deploying, rather than the one we are currently seeing. I have a hard time believing that a HC and OC who come from two of the most prolific passing units in the NFL are somehow running a throwback running offense purely by choice.
I think their hands are tied right now, for a variety of reasons, and it almost doesn't matter whether DJ falls on the cause side or the effect side, because the end result is the same: JS/BD/MK will still be projecting a QB who is not currently under contract into their preferred offensive scheme, and there will be zero QBs on the market (including DJ) who will have demonstrated experience/success operating within that scheme.
Whether they decide to tag DJ, sign him long-term, attempt to bring him back as a bridge, replace him with some other veteran placeholder, and/or go draft a QB, whatever, the reality is this, IMO: we don't know what their prototypical QB is, and which option available to them will be the closest approximation of what they desire in a QB, at whatever price that they feel is appropriate.
I don't expect JS/BD to give any sort of incumbent advantage to DJ. If they believe he's the guy, they'll sign him long-term at relatively big money. If they want to make it a priority to keep DJ but are far apart from his side on dollars and years, they'll tag him. If they believe he's a fungible bridge QB, they'll probably set their price for a placeholder (regardless of which one it ends up being), and offer that to DJ and to other QB alternatives, and let the market sort itself out.
In that latter scenario, it doesn't matter whether they end up with DJ or Andy Dalton or Geno Smith or whoever, because they're acknowledging by virtue of the contract itself that none of them are the long-term answer.
Good post and overall I agree. Whenever a new coach comes in they typically want their guy. Last years QB crop on paper wasn’t especially terrific so the team wisely stocked up on edge and offensive line. The fact that they didn’t pick up Jones’ 5th year option was very telling. If they thought highly enough of Jones that they would consider signing him long term you would think they would have picked that up to give them some flexibility.
Great idea! In the future, offering a 4 year contract to a QB who has proven nothing in his first 4 years in the league, will be the key to success in the NFL.
Teams like the Titans/49ers/Vikings/etc deal with QBs like Tannehill/Jimmy G/Kirk Cousins b/c they are still winning games.
Titans were the AFC's #1 seed last season due to their roster and good coaching.
Vikings have a nice roster and the NFL's best receiver.
49ers have arguably the best roster in the entire league, loaded on offense and defense.
Daniel Jones is throwing to Darius Slayton and Isaiah Hodgins.
The 49ers may miss out on a Super Bowl opportunity because they’ve had to rely on a slightly above average but often injured QB.
We’ll see on the Vikings, and if Cousins turns back into Primetime Kirk during the postseason.
All cautionary tales for the Giants while considering handing out a multi year deal to a mediocre QB.
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As I’ve mentioned previously I would offer Jones 4 years 100M. Think that’s fair and I think he’d take it.
Great idea! In the future, offering a 4 year contract to a QB who has proven nothing in his first 4 years in the league, will be the key to success in the NFL.
Schoen would literally have to get on his hands and knees and beg to get Jones to sign a 4 year 100m contract.
The biggest myth in the history of sports is when fans think that teams traded a superstar or didn't pay someone because they "couldn't afford him." The Titans could have easily paid Brown if they wanted to. Teams make it work with the cap. They just didn't want to commit to him long term for whatever reason.
The GM chose to get a 1st round pick for him, which they turned into Burks, who looks pretty damn good.