Eli Manning one is of the best QB's ever to play for the NYG's. He possessed all the tools needed to be an excellent QB. His ability to ALWAYS be available made him invaluable. Eli deserves every bit of credit for those two Superbowl runs and SBMVP's. Those are his legacy to the Giants organization and to us as fans. It is not debatable that Eli was the NY Giants Franchise QB and the face of the organization.
But Eli was not a great QB in the mold of guys like Aaron Rodgers from a statistical perspective. It's not even close.
Win/Loss: Eli 118-118; Aaron 146-77-1
Comp %: Eli 60.3; Aaron 65.3
Yds/gm: Eli 241.1; Aaron 257.6
TD's: Eli 366; Aaron 471
INT's: Eli 244; Aaron 102
fum lost: Eli 56; Aaron 39
Career QB rtg: Eli 84.1; Aaron 103.8
Playoff gms: Eli 12; Aaron 22
Playoff QB rtg: Eli 87.4; Aaron 100.1
I guess I am posting this because I am hearing too many references comparing Jones to Eli. "Jones will never be Eli", etc. I think we forgot how many bad games Eli had. How he averaged over 1 interception per game over his career. His pathetic 2008 playoff game against Philly with 2 interceptions and a rating of 40.7. His career record of 118-118. For much of his career, Eli was a healthy, but very average QB.
Jones is probably is not going to be Eli. But until Eli won a Superbowl, he was Peyton's less talented brother. And I am pretty sure we don't want to put Eli's and Peyton's stats side by side either or any of the other perceived top QB's of his generation.
Eli Career Stats - (
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Not the greatest QB. But boy did he come though when we needed him.
Absolutely not. But neither is it fair to say Jones could never be Eli. Eli was simply not the guy we seem to blissfully remember throughout the balance of his career from a statistical perspective.
This is decidedly not true for much of his career. His 118-118 record is proof enough of that.
Not the greatest QB. But boy did he come though when we needed him.
Bet Bill Belichick and Tom Brady would disagree with your first sentence.
So, you knew he had the pedigree, and he could spin it better than his brother.
It was worth waiting for him to come around...
actually year 4 (2007) of eli he hadn't yet won a super bowl.
on 11/26/07 he threw 4 ints in the loss vs the vikings
on 12/16/07 he threw 2 ints in the loss to the redskins 22-10
New York still can clinch a playoff berth with a win at Buffalo next weekend. It had better win, because the final regular-season game is at home against New England, which will probably be looking to put the finishing touches on a perfect regular season.
"It's just disappointing with everything on the line and everything that we had, win the game and we're in the playoffs, and in that situation to come out and play as poorly as we did," Manning said.
"It wasn't a day where you wanted to throw the ball a whole lot, but we've got to be able to throw better than we did today," said Manning, whose 34 incompletions were the most since Joe Namath had 36 in a game against Denver in 1967. "We've got to be able to execute better."
https://www.espn.com/nfl/game/_/gameId/271216019 - ( New Window )
Rodgers is a top 10 all time QB.
Eli Manning is a HoF QB with a very unusual career
Daniel Jones is a forgettable mediocrity who will bounce around the league for 10-12 years as a part time starter, part time backup.
So, you knew he had the pedigree, and he could spin it better than his brother.
It was worth waiting for him to come around...
People around here love talking about the supporting cast, they should go have a look at the bums Eli dragged to a Cotton Bowl victory as a senior. Along with wins at Florida, at Auburn, and at Arkansas.
He never won the QuickLane or Independence Bowls though, so Jones will always have that over him.
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Jones has not earned the right to be considered to be anything like Eli Manning
Absolutely not. But neither is it fair to say Jones could never be Eli. Eli was simply not the guy we seem to blissfully remember throughout the balance of his career from a statistical perspective.
Eli threw for 3,500 or more yards 11x in his career, something Jones has never done. He threw for 24 or more TDs in 8 seasons, something Jones has done once.
Yes, Eli typically benefited from a better receiving corps, BUT in 2017, Odell missed 12 games, Eli still threw for 3,500 yards and 19 TDs, AND EVERYONE WANTED HIM RUN OUT OF TOWN! Jones is on pace for 3,000 and 14 (in 17 games no less), and some want to pay him 4/$120.
So I would suggest that it isn’t Eli that many fans look at with blue colored glasses.
No impressive catalog of stats, only his impressions from all the film study he'd done over the years and what he saw in the post season runs. Processing skill and a total absence of fear when faced with a tight window.
The stats provide context for some other argument, but not the one trying to convince me that Eli had more upside in big games against good defenses than most who have played the position.
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In year 4 of Eli Manning's career he had been to the playoffs three times, won a division title, thrown 77 touch downs was a Top 10 passer and he won the super bowl.
actually year 4 (2007) of eli he hadn't yet won a super bowl.
on 11/26/07 he threw 4 ints in the loss vs the vikings
on 12/16/07 he threw 2 ints in the loss to the redskins 22-10
Excellent point.
If DJ wins the Super Bowl this year, he can stay.
The stats the OP presents are hard to ignore. Eli won a playoff game in only two of his 15 seasons. During those runs he was elite, better than Rogers and even Peyton.
But for many of his other seasons he and he Giants were pedestrian, even worse, those are the facts.
You and many others blamed Jerry Reese and the Giants for ruining the second half of his career, sound familiar!
So, you knew he had the pedigree, and he could spin it better than his brother.
It was worth waiting for him to come around...
bw, a question on the High School star rating system(s).
Do they assign these when the players are Juniors in HS? So, like 16/17 year olds?
Why do we care about them after players have completed 3/4 years of college?
...and I distinctly remember 2007 season when most of the fan base wanted TC and Eli gone...right up until they beat Tampa.
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In year 4 of Eli Manning's career he had been to the playoffs three times, won a division title, thrown 77 touch downs was a Top 10 passer and he won the super bowl.
actually year 4 (2007) of eli he hadn't yet won a super bowl.
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Jones has not earned the right to be considered to be anything like Eli Manning
The stats the OP presents are hard to ignore. Eli won a playoff game in only two of his 15 seasons. During those runs he was elite, better than Rogers and even Peyton.
But for many of his other seasons he and he Giants were pedestrian, even worse, those are the facts.
You and many others blamed Jerry Reese and the Giants for ruining the second half of his career, sound familiar!
Starting in 2009, Eli threw for 4,000 yards in 8 of his next 10 seasons. Jones has never come close to that number. The Giants may have been pedestrian, but for most of those years, Eli was anything but.
Eli threw for 3,500 or more yards 11x in his career, something Jones has never done. He threw for 24 or more TDs in 8 seasons, something Jones has done once.
Yes, Eli typically benefited from a better receiving corps, BUT in 2017, Odell missed 12 games, Eli still threw for 3,500 yards and 19 TDs, AND EVERYONE WANTED HIM RUN OUT OF TOWN! Jones is on pace for 3,000 and 14 (in 17 games no less), and some want to pay him 4/$120.
So I would suggest that it isn’t Eli that many fans look at with blue colored glasses.
DJ's yards per game are the about the same as Eli's over his first 4 years. But you have to compare a guy with 3 different coaches to a QB who had stability and a team around him.
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Eli was at least a 4-star recruit and played at his father's alma mater in the SEC, which created a lot of pressure. And he was very successful at Ole Miss.
So, you knew he had the pedigree, and he could spin it better than his brother.
It was worth waiting for him to come around...
People around here love talking about the supporting cast, they should go have a look at the bums Eli dragged to a Cotton Bowl victory as a senior. Along with wins at Florida, at Auburn, and at Arkansas.
Agreed.
Eli also won the Cotton Bowl, the Maxwell Award and, I believe, was third in the Heisman.
It has always bothered me the way the Mannings and Condon manipulated the 2004 draft. But there really wasn't much doubting his ability to throw a football for every route on the route tree.
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In comment 15937355 gidiefor said:
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Jones has not earned the right to be considered to be anything like Eli Manning
Absolutely not. But neither is it fair to say Jones could never be Eli. Eli was simply not the guy we seem to blissfully remember throughout the balance of his career from a statistical perspective.
Eli threw for 3,500 or more yards 11x in his career, something Jones has never done. He threw for 24 or more TDs in 8 seasons, something Jones has done once.
Yes, Eli typically benefited from a better receiving corps, BUT in 2017, Odell missed 12 games, Eli still threw for 3,500 yards and 19 TDs, AND EVERYONE WANTED HIM RUN OUT OF TOWN! Jones is on pace for 3,000 and 14 (in 17 games no less), and some want to pay him 4/$120.
So I would suggest that it isn’t Eli that many fans look at with blue colored glasses.
This! DJ gets way more credit, and excuses made, than Eli ever did.
...but...but...but...OLine, WRs, wind, a top 4 RB in the NFL isn't good enough...and now...his OC is trying to undermine his success.
DJ threw for 24 TDs when he also had about 50 turnovers. Since the turnovers have stopped, he puts up backup QB production. DJ isn't Eli...DJ isn't Alex Smith.
Let’s talk about Eli early on:
1. Where is Jones win that is equal to the win against Denver in 2005 when Eli drove them down the field?
2. When has Jones took the team on his back like Eli did @Philly in 2006 coming back from 24-7 on the road?
Eli showed plenty of signs early. With Eli it was never about stats, it was how he had a knack for stepping up most when it counted the most. Oh and btw, he was the consensus #1 pick.
Now with Jones, it’s all about stats. Yet all the stats are from dink and dunk passes underneath.
If Daniel Jones had all this untapped potential, it would have jumped out on tape and Schoen would have picked up the 5th year option. That’s a no brainer. If Jones had all this potential, Schoen would have made it a priority to lock him to during the bye. Schoen didn’t even engage with him on a contract.
Don’t insult Eli.
We keep projecting Jones as not a superbowl QB. Eli wasn't one until he was. It took Eli 4 years but he didn't do it alone.
Simms was hated by Giant fans until he won a Superbowl.
Some things don't change. Having to follow Eli is not an easy job and Jones may never win here in NY.
I wouldn't count him out that he may get one during his career.
Starting in 2009, Eli threw for 4,000 yards in 8 of his next 10 seasons. Jones has never come close to that number. The Giants may have been pedestrian, but for most of those years, Eli was anything but.
Be honest with the fact that Jones has never been placed in the position to accomplish what Eli did with a decent roster and consistent coaching. And it took Eli 6 years to break 4000.
idea that Eli Manning wasn't a great quarterback in his
prime. He kinda shows how pretending winning doesn't
exist makes you lose sight of things that are important
for winning. Here's what I mean...
PFF has data for "big-time throws" starting in 2009. Between 09-12, Manning ranked 3rd, 5th, 3rd, 1st in "big-time throw" percentage. Was he perfect like Peyton? Nah. But he consistently was among the best and making ridiculous throws. That played out in his big moments.
Eli also had an incredibly good sack rate. No. 1 in pressure-to-sack rate in 2012, 2011 and 2nd in 2010. That's huge. There have been studies that show sacks crush EPA worse than most INTs.
His average depth of target was 5th in 2012, 1st in 2011, 10th in 2010 and 7th in 2009. He graded 90+ by PFF on 20+ throws in all the available years. So you have a QB pushing the ball downfield, making big-time throws and not taking sacks. Is that good?
But pushing the ball downfield isn't going to get you a high completion percentage and those passes will get picked sometimes. That hurts the old QB rating, which people gravitate to like moths to a flame.
Now here's the other one... I know game-winning drives can be a spotty stat. Eli tied Peyton for most game-winning drives in the regular season. In his 8 playoff wins, he had 5 GWD. Does it absolutely mean he was "clutch?" I dunno. But it's good.
Did I mention the Giants were 5th (ahead of Indy) in points scored from
2005-2012?
bw, a question on the High School star rating system(s).
Do they assign these when the players are Juniors in HS? So, like 16/17 year olds?
Why do we care about them after players have completed 3/4 years of college?
...and I distinctly remember 2007 season when most of the fan base wanted TC and Eli gone...right up until they beat Tampa.
Ratings/stars/grades are applied on soon as a player is identified as an interesting prospect. And for any sport.
So, it could be 8th, 9th, 10th grade. These kids get into camps and tournaments very early and word travels fast when skill sets/metrics jump out. (My son was graded as a baseball prospect in the 10th grade...for example.)
Those grades obviously can change over time - due to a variety of reasons - and most people don't give them a lot of credibility until the junior year.
In comment 15937362 JerseyCityJoe said:
Not the greatest QB. But boy did he come though when we needed him.
It was only after they retired has it become sunshine and roses. They won big and enjoy their well earned legend, but to deny that they were shit on regularly is a lie.
It's def a NYG QB tradition. Now is it the same paople that that drag the QB (whoever it may be) over the decades? IDK. I'm sure their is some common thread.
To the OP, Yes eli is remembered as better then he was, treated better now then he was while playing.
"And to the Giants fans, you are definitely unique, but I love you for that."
Let’s talk about Eli early on:
1. Where is Jones win that is equal to the win against Denver in 2005 when Eli drove them down the field?
2. When has Jones took the team on his back like Eli did @Philly in 2006 coming back from 24-7 on the road?
Eli showed plenty of signs early. With Eli it was never about stats, it was how he had a knack for stepping up most when it counted the most. Oh and btw, he was the consensus #1 pick.
Now with Jones, it’s all about stats. Yet all the stats are from dink and dunk passes underneath.
If Daniel Jones had all this untapped potential, it would have jumped out on tape and Schoen would have picked up the 5th year option. That’s a no brainer. If Jones had all this potential, Schoen would have made it a priority to lock him to during the bye. Schoen didn’t even engage with him on a contract.
Don’t insult Eli.
Schoen didn't option Jones and his FA "haul" was Glowinski and Taylor. Yikes.
Regarding Manning vs. Jones. Daniel Jones looks like a good NFL quarterback, while Manning was.
Manning got a ton of grief early in his career because he was the no. 1 overall pick, and replaced a veteran who took the Giants to a Super Bowl.
This was the era of expectations among fans. An era that has long passed.
Let’s talk about Eli early on:
1. Where is Jones win that is equal to the win against Denver in 2005 when Eli drove them down the field?
2. When has Jones took the team on his back like Eli did @Philly in 2006 coming back from 24-7 on the road?
Eli showed plenty of signs early. With Eli it was never about stats, it was how he had a knack for stepping up most when it counted the most. Oh and btw, he was the consensus #1 pick.
Now with Jones, it’s all about stats. Yet all the stats are from dink and dunk passes underneath.
If Daniel Jones had all this untapped potential, it would have jumped out on tape and Schoen would have picked up the 5th year option. That’s a no brainer. If Jones had all this potential, Schoen would have made it a priority to lock him to during the bye. Schoen didn’t even engage with him on a contract.
Don’t insult Eli.
I don't think you have watched the games this year. Jones has been integral to the Giants wins this year. But that said, I think Schoen and Daboll were thinking that they would move in a different direction when that decision had to be made on. And I do not blame them one bit. Only a fool would of thought the season would play out as it has. I am sure they thought they would be in a position to draft a new QB which would of been ideal.
None of this changes that fact that Eli, as much as we love him not was an average QB for most of his career. His 118-118 record is proof enough of that, even if you do not dig into the stats.
Let’s talk about Eli early on:
1. Where is Jones win that is equal to the win against Denver in 2005 when Eli drove them down the field?
2. When has Jones took the team on his back like Eli did @Philly in 2006 coming back from 24-7 on the road?
Eli showed plenty of signs early. With Eli it was never about stats, it was how he had a knack for stepping up most when it counted the most. Oh and btw, he was the consensus #1 pick.
Now with Jones, it’s all about stats. Yet all the stats are from dink and dunk passes underneath.
If Daniel Jones had all this untapped potential, it would have jumped out on tape and Schoen would have picked up the 5th year option. That’s a no brainer. If Jones had all this potential, Schoen would have made it a priority to lock him to during the bye. Schoen didn’t even engage with him on a contract.
Don’t insult Eli.
Best post in this thread!
Yep. It’s gotten nuts with Jones. I’m rooting for Jones, but geez it’s gotten nuts.
This was the era of expectations among fans. An era that has long passed.
There are still expectations, but they are defined differently.
Now, the expectations are surrounding your QB with pro bowl and/or near pro-bowl talent before said QB can properly be judged.
This^^
And put up very good statistics. Hence, he'll be in the HOF one day.
I'm a big supporter of Daniel Jones. But he's not even a franchise QB.
He's can play in the NFL, needs good players around him, and you certainly can win games with him.
Give these stats to Bill Belichick and see what he has to say all about this. But be interesting to hear his thoughts.
I will always understand the perspective of others with speaking to Eli's warts. I saw them as well. What I will never understand is how there still are some people who never understood what resided within this QB that stats will never reflect.
If BB doesn't do it for you I'd encourage you to watch that NFCCG against San Fran. Another little tidbit from Ernie's scouting report on top of the "it factor" he wrote that he "takes the hit. Keeps getting up." He sure did. Ask Rolle.
The greatest tragedy this franchise had the last 40 years was not having a good enough team around him from 2013-17. Not only would his stats be much better I wouldn't be so sure he might have made another great run.
Now for Jones. I think he has had to deal with some horrible circumstances. The chances that fixing these will greatly improve his stats is something that is realistic imv. The "other" stuff extremely questionable for me. Problem is it is rare that stats and that "other" stuff rarely align and you never truly know one way or the other until they do it. With the cost going up on Jones soon I'm very hesitant but he may be the best option factoring in a lot of things. We'll see shortly what JS/BD come up with.
Think about what you're saying. A guy who led (and I mean really led) the team to two SBs and put up stats that puts him the Top 10 of major categories is only average?
Manning was a very good NFL quarterback who was worthy of his draft position.
If they are being honest, not even the most ardent Jones supporter can say they have confidence that Jones has that same intangible quality. He's done it like twice in 4 years. New Orleans last year and week 3 or 4 this year - I can't remember the opponent.
And before you mention it, despite the game winning drives stat this year, I'm not impressed. At least 3 of those are due solely due to Saquon breaking off huge 4th quarter gains. I'm talking situations where it is the last possession of the game and you need your QB to make big plays. Jones doesn't have it, Eli did.
2011 was some of the best, toughest qb play I have seen
No impressive catalog of stats, only his impressions from all the film study he'd done over the years and what he saw in the post season runs. Processing skill and a total absence of fear when faced with a tight window.
ICE in his veins is a great trait in playoffs
The stats provide context for some other argument, but not the one trying to convince me that Eli had more upside in big games against good defenses than most who have played the position.
Eli threw for for 4,299 yards and 21 TDs in 2018. Odell missed the final four games, including a 3 TD effort by Eli where he threw TDs to such stars as Russell Shepard and Bennie Fowler.
Giants put up 23.1 PPG that year.
The 2017 Giants had Eli throwing for more yards and touchdowns than Jones will this year and Eli played in 15 games with Jones' projected 17.
And also it was clear Eli was a shell of himself both years.
No one should be comparing YPG from a decade and a half ago to now without context.
Eli's passing YPG alongside the league average passing YPG from his first four seasons (games started only) were as follows:
2004: 139.6 (210.5); -34% below average
2005: 235.1 (203.5); +16% above average
2006: 202.8 (204.8); -1% below average
2007: 208.5 (214.3); -3% below average
First 4 years, combined: 205.8 (208.3); -1% below average
Now, let's do the same for Jones:
2019: 250.8 (235.0); +7% above average
2020: 210.2 (240.2); -12% below average
2021: 220.7 (228.3); -3% below average
2022: 197.1 (221.7); -11% below average
First 4 years, combined: 219.3 (231.3); -5% below average
One thing that jumps out is how much of an anomaly each QB's rookie year is relative to their respective numbers otherwise. DJ's passing numbers were more prolific in his rookie year, likely due to how QB-friendly Shurmur's offense was (and we saw that in Case Keenum's numbers in Minnesota the year before Shurmur was hired by the Giants). Meanwhile, Eli's rookie year reflected some sharp growing pains adjusting to the NFL in a complex scheme like Hufnagel's.
If you take DJ's rookie year out of the equation, DJ has averaged 209.1 passing YPG. The league average for those three years is 230.7 passing YPG. DJ has been -9% below league average for years 2-4.
Now compare that to Eli's numbers in years 2-4: Eli averaged 215.5 passing YPG. The league average for those three years was 207.5 passing YPG. Eli was +4% above league average for years 2-4. Also noteworthy, Eli had two different OCs during his first four seasons (Gilbride took over as OC midway through Eli's third season).
Should we look at other passing stats also, or do you want to just go ahead and pretend that you never made this silly comparison in the first place?
Come on. I can make stats say anything I want. Manning didn't have a single season in his first where his completion percentage or QB rating were as high as Jones' worst year. Manning's 77 TDs came in 57 games. Jones' 56 have come in 50 games. That's 1.34 a game to 1.1 a game. That means Jones would have had 63 in 57 games. Manning had also thrown a whopping 64 INTs, compared to Jones' 33. Manning ran for an amazing 77 yards, compared to Jones' 1,522 yards. And the "fumbler" Jones has had 22 fumbles in years 2, 3 and 4, despite being pounded behind a terrible O line, while Manning had 33 in years 2, 3 and 4.
The key facts from their first four years are this:
Manning had the same coaching staff all four years, while Jones has had three in four years. And Manning did all of that with a supporting cast that Jones can only dream of. Manning was sacked 93 times in those 77 games, compared to Jones' 142 in 55, a pretty good indicator of the difference in the offensive lines. Which Giants receiver this year is equal to 2005's Burress? Toomer? Which tight end is comparable to 2005's Shockey of Shiancoe? Which O linemen in Jones' first three years compares to 2005's Diehl, Pettigout, Seubert, Snee, and O'Hara? And Manning's supporting cast only improved the next two years. Not only that, how many times in Jones' career has he played with the same wide receivers more than two games in a row. The same O line. How often did Manning not have the same guys on the field with him?
Comparing Manning to Jones is apples and oranges because of the players around them and the coaching situations.
[quote] In comment 15937383 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15937358 Ben in Tampa said:
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In year 4 of Eli Manning's career he had been to the playoffs three times, won a division title, thrown 77 touch downs was a Top 10 passer and he won the super bowl.
actually year 4 (2007) of eli he hadn't yet won a super bowl.
on 11/26/07 he threw 4 ints in the loss vs the vikings
on 12/16/07 he threw 2 ints in the loss to the redskins 22-10
And after the Washington loss he proceeded to win 12 of his next 14 games including 3 playoff games and the Super Bowl. (one of the losses being to 15-0 Patriots). So there's that.
You sure about that?
In comment 15937362 JerseyCityJoe said:
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What I loved about Eli was his ability to pick himself off the ground and go about his business. Never too high or too low he just kept on plugging. His two SB campaigns he elevated his game and carried the team when we needed it most.
Not the greatest QB. But boy did he come though when we needed him.
Eli won NFC Offensive Player of the Week just four times in his whole career. That's the same amount as Kerry Collins.
Then, when he had a good OL, he was very good and the Giants were very good. I will take Eli over Jones every day of the week, especially on Sunday. And for a game I have to win, I'm not even calling Jones.
At his present rate, Jones should hit 57000 yards in another 16-18 years and should throw his 366th td pass in about 20.
Manning's last year as a full time starter, he threw for 4300 yards, 21 td's and 7.5 yards an attempt at age 37. Jones threw 24 td passes his rookie year. It took him the following two seasons to total 21. Jones hasn't come close to either of the other two marks
GTFO with this idiotic comparison.
That said, please stop comparing him to Eli, Rodgers, Russel Wilson, etc etc etc.
And that’s coming from a poster who believes you might be able to win with Jones.
Well, many have been doing a pretty good job shitting on DJ, using Manning as a reference or saying unless you have a top 10 QB...you can't win.
Well, Eli for the majority of his career was decidedly not a top 10 QB. Eli was a good QB, with balls of stone and a personality that could handle the BS in NY. It worked. He had consistency in coaching (as much as you can in the NFL) and was a cold blooded killer during those two playoff runs. The mentions of the SF NFCCG are spot on. That was Eli at his absolute best as a competitor.
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Eli Manning? Seriously? We're shitting on Eli fing Manning to prop up Daniel Jones. This is a sickness.
Well, many have been doing a pretty good job shitting on DJ, using Manning as a reference or saying unless you have a top 10 QB...you can't win.
Well, Eli for the majority of his career was decidedly not a top 10 QB. Eli was a good QB, with balls of stone and a personality that could handle the BS in NY. It worked. He had consistency in coaching (as much as you can in the NFL) and was a cold blooded killer during those two playoff runs. The mentions of the SF NFCCG are spot on. That was Eli at his absolute best as a competitor.
Please make this stop.
How has Eli been blasted? Seriously. I actually took pains to compliment Eli for what he did as a NYG. But Eli was not what so many want to remember him as. He was a long way from an elite level QB from year to year. That is not blasting him...it is simply who he was. Few if any QB's could of survived in NY like Eli did and come out on the other side as loved and admired as Eli currently is.
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In comment 15937571 Jerry in_DC said:
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Eli Manning? Seriously? We're shitting on Eli fing Manning to prop up Daniel Jones. This is a sickness.
Well, many have been doing a pretty good job shitting on DJ, using Manning as a reference or saying unless you have a top 10 QB...you can't win.
Well, Eli for the majority of his career was decidedly not a top 10 QB. Eli was a good QB, with balls of stone and a personality that could handle the BS in NY. It worked. He had consistency in coaching (as much as you can in the NFL) and was a cold blooded killer during those two playoff runs. The mentions of the SF NFCCG are spot on. That was Eli at his absolute best as a competitor.
I would argue for a good portion he was a top 10 and a few times top 5. Even when you want to consider him outside the top 10, he was not a bottom half QB. I'm sorry. Jones is not in the same class as Manning. Period.
Please make this stop.
Matt, What years was Eli statistically a top 10 QB during his career?
Brady, Rodgers, Peyton, Brees and who else? The only time he wasn’t a top 10 QB was during the last 4 or 5 years
This is a very good point.
Just to show how absurd this can get, here are Peyton Manning's first four years in Indy:
81 INTs, completion%: 62%, TD/INT ratio: 1.34 (higher the better), INT%: 3.5 (lower the better). His Passer Rating average (there was no QBR) was about 85.
Jones's first four years:
33 INTs, completion%: 63.5%, TD/INT ratio: 1.70, INT%: 2. His Passer Rating average is 85.8.
Does anyone want to say Jones looks better after his first four years than the better Manning?
I do not agree with anyone who will not say that Eli had a much better skill group outside RB and I take TB and then Jacobs/Ward/Bradshaw over SB. All of Eli's backs were outstanding pass protectors and some were devastating to oncoming defenders trying to hit their QB.
But the really big difference is the quality of the OL. The same one this franchise has tried to fix. It ruined the back half of Eli's career and crippled Jones career.
Eli's OL made running backs productive. This one needs scheme, Jones and SB to make it for the most part though they have had good moments. Eli's OL were good in PP regardless of down/distance. This one you hope its just one D guy getting a break away when facing good fronts.
PM? As great as he was let's not forget who is GM was. The one that put together the talent needed around a QB. Stretch run? The play the offense was built off of. Hall of fame Harrison? TE?
Brady, Rodgers, Peyton, Brees and who else? The only time he wasn’t a top 10 QB was during the last 4 or 5 years
Not many directly overlap...
Farve, Romo, Roethlisberger, Carson Palmer, Rivers, Wilson, Ryan, Stafford, Kirk Cousins, Andy Dalton.
Almost all these guys generally had QBR's above Eli who was usually in the mid teens. Eli was top 10 2008 thru 2012 when he had a really good team and offensive line. Shockingly, when he did not have a good supporting cast he was average.
I do not agree with anyone who will not say that Eli had a much better skill group outside RB and I take TB and then Jacobs/Ward/Bradshaw over SB. All of Eli's backs were outstanding pass protectors and some were devastating to oncoming defenders trying to hit their QB.
But the really big difference is the quality of the OL. The same one this franchise has tried to fix. It ruined the back half of Eli's career and crippled Jones career.
Eli's OL made running backs productive. This one needs scheme, Jones and SB to make it for the most part though they have had good moments. Eli's OL were good in PP regardless of down/distance. This one you hope its just one D guy getting a break away when facing good fronts.
PM? As great as he was let's not forget who is GM was. The one that put together the talent needed around a QB. Stretch run? The play the offense was built off of. Hall of fame Harrison? TE?
Jacobs was a 6th olineman.
Yeah, ludicrous is spot on. Eli is going to end up in Canton. DJ never will.
Unfortunately they and many others ranked ahead of Eli at times during their respective careers in terms of QBR so that point is mute. Want to judge by W-L. Eli had a winning record half the time by season and a 118-118 career. One and done in the playoffs 4 times.
The goal here is not to beat up on Eli...but people insist on trying to compare Jones to Eli. Eli was a good QB that managed to be a central part of two amazing runs. You take those away...Eli is a long shot HOF candidate ad best. His longevity being the reason he would get there.
I will take the rings as well. But that does not change the fact they were substantially better QB's. Great defense and some very fortunate plays are important factors in each of those SB wins. Eli was not the one that limited NE to 14 and 17 points.
The 4 other times the Giants made the playoffs with Eli, he did not elevate the team and he generally played poorly in all those losses.
No way. Those runs helped offset a regular season career that didn't have enough high points.
Link - ( New Window )
Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Manning and Manning. All of them played each other for the most part either in the playoffs or in Super Bowls. Not another QB won until Flacco did in 2012.
Eli belongs in that class of QBs. The only QBs who compared in terms of regular season stats or consistency over that span are Rivers, Romo, McNabb and maybe late career Favre.
Also, when Eli broke into the league in 2004, it was a completely different playing field than it was for Daniel Jones. There is no comparison to be made.
LOL dude. You are the one tossing comparisons left and right. I write a post saying Eli was essentially an average QB most of his career. His statistics and the Giants record with him as the starting QB support that. I am tired of the comparisons to Eli, because they are unfair considering the hand that Jones has been dealt.
Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Manning and Manning. All of them played each other for the most part either in the playoffs or in Super Bowls. Not another QB won until Flacco did in 2012.
Eli belongs in that class of QBs. The only QBs who compared in terms of regular season stats or consistency over that span are Rivers, Romo, McNabb and maybe late career Favre.
Also, when Eli broke into the league in 2004, it was a completely different playing field than it was for Daniel Jones. There is no comparison to be made.
Great point. Yet, the OP lumps in 2013-2019 Eli. Eli is only a .500 QB because of the back end of his career. Eli from 2005-2012 was a big time QB who happened to be a 2x SB MVP.
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And we’ve got people comparing him to Eli. We’ll see what Schoen & Daboll ultimately think.
LOL dude. You are the one tossing comparisons left and right. I write a post saying Eli was essentially an average QB most of his career. His statistics and the Giants record with him as the starting QB support that. I am tired of the comparisons to Eli, because they are unfair considering the hand that Jones has been dealt.
What contract would you offer Jones?
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That's why he has two rings and Rodgers and Brees only have one each. Say whatever you want about compiling stats outside of those conditions. I'll take the rings.
I will take the rings as well. But that does not change the fact they were substantially better QB's. Great defense and some very fortunate plays are important factors in each of those SB wins. Eli was not the one that limited NE to 14 and 17 points.
The 4 other times the Giants made the playoffs with Eli, he did not elevate the team and he generally played poorly in all those losses.
Out of his 12 playoff games he played well in 10 of them. He played badly in 2005 and 2008 but in 2006 brought them back on the road in Philly only to have the defense allow a gw FG and in 2016 played well enough for them to win.
One of 5 players to win 2 SB MVP's...another interesting stat I found 2nd all time with 44 game-tying or go-ahead TDs in the 4th quarter or OT.
And never had the consistent supporting cast that Rodgers has had and Rodgers only has one ring.
No. Eli isn't Aaron Rodgers or TB12 or Mahomes.
But no, DJ isn't even in Eli's stratosphere.
Heinicke has a number of physical limitations that should preclude him from being an NFL starter.
But this 4th down player against NYG on Sunday was an incredible off-script play. Those types of plays, I believe, are what QBs need to have in their arsenal to succeed in the NFL. Anyone think Jones makes this play?
Heinicke Miracle - ( New Window )
He put every play on himself, thus the chance-taking.
2004/5 the team’ s receivers were OK, but the D and OL was not there, yet. Snee was in y1/2 and it wasn’t until 06 when they got McKenzie , and Plax to add to Shockeyand Toomer to open the O for him.
He made a lot of throws that were picked because he put every play on himself.
Gave me lots of aggita with some of the boneheadedness, but, he was who and what he was..
2012- 17 Reese failed him and he got the snot kicked out of him, as well as the team.
DG was even worse 2018-2021 to the whole team. Especially drafting only 6 OL when we needed one early each year, but he chose to overpay for FAs , stymying the cap, and hamstringing the O talent wise.
Can Danny be Eli? For a few SB Wins I hope, but it’d be nice if they built a decent enough team to evaluate him, but it’s possibly they’ll move on from him, build their vision, and hope….
As an old guy, I’m against the move on from that perspective, mostly because I don’t see a QB out there to get, in 23 , to build around, that they can reach, with all the holes they still have( and the injuries to the entire ‘22 class pushing those picks back a year, if they can come back).
No. Eli isn't Aaron Rodgers or TB12 or Mahomes.
But no, DJ isn't even in Eli's stratosphere.
i think the point being lost on people is eli at this point in year 4 wasn't on eli's stratosphere. anyone who says they weren't worried about him after the Sharper game, the Redskin loss at home, and the Buffalo game where they only attempted like 1 pass in the second half and "backed into the playoffs" ahead of the NE game in week 17 2007 is a liar.
yes, some may spin themselves up with tales of him leading teams to the playoffs but i was at the philly game and the 3 int carolina shutout. those appearances was not a feather in anyone's cap at the time.
eli's arc is in no way predictive of jones but it is a good example of how much can change quickly in the nfl. eli was a punchline even through that sb win (worst qb to win a sb, etc).
Seriously! Why?
If I had a vagina I'd be a lesbian?
If Judge didn't hit 61 HR would he be a good player?
If Parcells didn't win 3 SB's would he be a good coach?
I hate this "lets take away all the good things" arguments.
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This is such a ridiculous thread.
No. Eli isn't Aaron Rodgers or TB12 or Mahomes.
But no, DJ isn't even in Eli's stratosphere.
i think the point being lost on people is eli at this point in year 4 wasn't on eli's stratosphere. anyone who says they weren't worried about him after the Sharper game, the Redskin loss at home, and the Buffalo game where they only attempted like 1 pass in the second half and "backed into the playoffs" ahead of the NE game in week 17 2007 is a liar.
yes, some may spin themselves up with tales of him leading teams to the playoffs but i was at the philly game and the 3 int carolina shutout. those appearances was not a feather in anyone's cap at the time.
eli's arc is in no way predictive of jones but it is a good example of how much can change quickly in the nfl. eli was a punchline even through that sb win (worst qb to win a sb, etc).
Eli was a punchline to who? Dumbass Giant fans like you and the OP?
The reality is, fans of other teams do not think that highly of him. I worked with many people from all over the US, and aside from a few Patriots fans begrudgingly admitting Eli outplayed Brady in those Super Bowls, no one I ever met thought Eli was anything more than mediocre. It sort of surprised me.
That said, please stop comparing him to Eli, Rodgers, Russel Wilson, etc etc etc.
And that’s coming from a poster who believes you might be able to win with Jones.
I think this is where we are at. You can’t compare the 2, without extrapolating some stats. Like another poster mentioned. The fact is Eli is a legend and true fans, who know what it Mens to be a GIANTS fan are, like a kid at Christmas, wishing for DJ to get his Christmas gift and ours of comparable players and coaching.
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This is such a ridiculous thread.
No. Eli isn't Aaron Rodgers or TB12 or Mahomes.
But no, DJ isn't even in Eli's stratosphere.
i think the point being lost on people is eli at this point in year 4 wasn't on eli's stratosphere. anyone who says they weren't worried about him after the Sharper game, the Redskin loss at home, and the Buffalo game where they only attempted like 1 pass in the second half and "backed into the playoffs" ahead of the NE game in week 17 2007 is a liar.
yes, some may spin themselves up with tales of him leading teams to the playoffs but i was at the philly game and the 3 int carolina shutout. those appearances was not a feather in anyone's cap at the time.
eli's arc is in no way predictive of jones but it is a good example of how much can change quickly in the nfl. eli was a punchline even through that sb win (worst qb to win a sb, etc).
Man, we have some dumb fans.
I’m not saying Jones is or ever will be Eli, but like Eli he’s not a big stats guy. People on this board (some people) get absolutely enamored with these flashy stats. Like Herbert for example, hasn’t won shit through almost three years now and he has wonderful arm talent, etc.
Bottom line, you don’t have to have the best QB in the league to win a SB. You need a solid D, a run game, good blocking, and a QB that can manage a game with the best of them, read defenses, and make the plays when it’s needed most.
I’m not saying Jones is or ever will be Eli, but like Eli he’s not a big stats guy. People on this board (some people) get absolutely enamored with these flashy stats. Like Herbert for example, hasn’t won shit through almost three years now and he has wonderful arm talent, etc.
Bottom line, you don’t have to have the best QB in the league to win a SB. You need a solid D, a run game, good blocking, and a QB that can manage a game with the best of them, read defenses, and make the plays when it’s needed most.
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And we’ve got people comparing him to Eli. We’ll see what Schoen & Daboll ultimately think.
Heinicke has a number of physical limitations that should preclude him from being an NFL starter.
But this 4th down player against NYG on Sunday was an incredible off-script play. Those types of plays, I believe, are what QBs need to have in their arsenal to succeed in the NFL. Anyone think Jones makes this play?
Heinicke Miracle - ( New Window )
Personally, I think he dispelled any notions about his shortcomings as a QB in the 2014 and 2015 seasons. These were the two seasons McAdoo was the OC and they ran a variation of the WCO. He had his 2 finest seasons. 2016 and 2017 with McAdoo as the HC we did not run the same offense. But, those other two seasons Eli showed what kind of QB he could have been if the Giants weren't running a crazy offense for years. And why were they able to run it? Because he was about the smartest QB in the league.
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In comment 15937714 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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This is such a ridiculous thread.
No. Eli isn't Aaron Rodgers or TB12 or Mahomes.
But no, DJ isn't even in Eli's stratosphere.
i think the point being lost on people is eli at this point in year 4 wasn't on eli's stratosphere. anyone who says they weren't worried about him after the Sharper game, the Redskin loss at home, and the Buffalo game where they only attempted like 1 pass in the second half and "backed into the playoffs" ahead of the NE game in week 17 2007 is a liar.
yes, some may spin themselves up with tales of him leading teams to the playoffs but i was at the philly game and the 3 int carolina shutout. those appearances was not a feather in anyone's cap at the time.
eli's arc is in no way predictive of jones but it is a good example of how much can change quickly in the nfl. eli was a punchline even through that sb win (worst qb to win a sb, etc).
Eli was a punchline to who? Dumbass Giant fans like you and the OP?
you're right, eli's career was all sunshine and rainbows.
This from year 4 week 12 didn't happen:
https://www.bigblueinteractive.com/2007/11/25/giants-crushed-by-vikings-as-manning-hands-the-vikings-28-points/
Manning threw four interceptions, three of which were returned for touchdowns. Another interception gave the Vikings the ball on the Giants’ 8-yard line and the Vikings scored on the very next play. In effect, Manning handed the Vikings 28 points. All of this against the League’s worst pass defense.
and this from just a few weeks later in week 16 ahead of the first SB run certainly didn't happen.
Offense
I really don’t know what to think anymore about Eli Manning. I’ve long been an advocate of his and I haven’t given up on him yet. I do believe that his struggles are very much a result of the offensive scheme employed by the coaching staff. I do believe that for various other (obvious) reasons he is scrutinized much more than he should be. And I still believe that statistics can be very misleading and are, especially in Manning’s case. However, the fumbles this year are very troublesome.
He threw two picks against Buffalo. Both of them, I believe were on comeback routes to Burress and Toomer and one or both of them may or may not have been on the receiver. I’m tired of making excuses though for the interceptions. Maybe I’m just frustrated because we haven’t seen Manning look like anything remotely close to a very good quarterback for a full 60 minutes since week one.
He’s thrown some beautiful passes this year. Shoot, Steve Smith dropped a beautiful pass that could have been a TD. Manning had heat in his face and couldn’t even step all the way into the throw. But it’s hard though to highlight what he’s done and does well, when he has had this propensity for turning the ball over at the most inopportune times.
Throughout the year, we’ve rarely seen the Manning 3rd and 15 interception on a 50-yard bomb that we as fans could say: “well he was taking a shot and it was as good a punt.”
Maybe it just seems this way, but I feel that every time Manning has turned the ball over this year (and let me stress that I still maintain that a lot of the interceptions have not been his fault) it has literally sucked the life out of the team and fans. You don’t fumble the ball in the redzone. You don’t lose the ball when you’re cocking your arm to throw. That’s the kind of stuff you see at your kid’s Pop Warner game. Your kid’s hands are a lot smaller than Manning’s.
Granted the weather the last two weeks has been brutal, but come on kid get your act together.
on a second read all that just screams "HOF QB about to go on a magical SB run".
(none of this is a shot at Eric - he captured what was a plain reality at the time and was more measured than most in doing so - they've all just got selective amnesia)
Game Review: New York Giants at Buffalo Bills, December 23, 2007 - ( New Window )
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In comment 15937737 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15937714 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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This is such a ridiculous thread.
No. Eli isn't Aaron Rodgers or TB12 or Mahomes.
But no, DJ isn't even in Eli's stratosphere.
i think the point being lost on people is eli at this point in year 4 wasn't on eli's stratosphere. anyone who says they weren't worried about him after the Sharper game, the Redskin loss at home, and the Buffalo game where they only attempted like 1 pass in the second half and "backed into the playoffs" ahead of the NE game in week 17 2007 is a liar.
yes, some may spin themselves up with tales of him leading teams to the playoffs but i was at the philly game and the 3 int carolina shutout. those appearances was not a feather in anyone's cap at the time.
eli's arc is in no way predictive of jones but it is a good example of how much can change quickly in the nfl. eli was a punchline even through that sb win (worst qb to win a sb, etc).
Eli was a punchline to who? Dumbass Giant fans like you and the OP?
you're right, eli's career was all sunshine and rainbows.
This from year 4 week 12 didn't happen:
https://www.bigblueinteractive.com/2007/11/25/giants-crushed-by-vikings-as-manning-hands-the-vikings-28-points/
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It doesn’t get much worse for a quarterback than this. Eli Manning all but handed the Vikings the game today as the Giants were blown out 41-17 by the Minnesota Vikings at the Meadowlands. The Giants fell to 7-4 while the Vikings improved to 5-6.
Manning threw four interceptions, three of which were returned for touchdowns. Another interception gave the Vikings the ball on the Giants’ 8-yard line and the Vikings scored on the very next play. In effect, Manning handed the Vikings 28 points. All of this against the League’s worst pass defense.
and this from just a few weeks later in week 16 ahead of the first SB run certainly didn't happen.
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The Giants won this game in spite of a lot of things. The major one being: Eli Manning.
Offense
I really don’t know what to think anymore about Eli Manning. I’ve long been an advocate of his and I haven’t given up on him yet. I do believe that his struggles are very much a result of the offensive scheme employed by the coaching staff. I do believe that for various other (obvious) reasons he is scrutinized much more than he should be. And I still believe that statistics can be very misleading and are, especially in Manning’s case. However, the fumbles this year are very troublesome.
He threw two picks against Buffalo. Both of them, I believe were on comeback routes to Burress and Toomer and one or both of them may or may not have been on the receiver. I’m tired of making excuses though for the interceptions. Maybe I’m just frustrated because we haven’t seen Manning look like anything remotely close to a very good quarterback for a full 60 minutes since week one.
He’s thrown some beautiful passes this year. Shoot, Steve Smith dropped a beautiful pass that could have been a TD. Manning had heat in his face and couldn’t even step all the way into the throw. But it’s hard though to highlight what he’s done and does well, when he has had this propensity for turning the ball over at the most inopportune times.
Throughout the year, we’ve rarely seen the Manning 3rd and 15 interception on a 50-yard bomb that we as fans could say: “well he was taking a shot and it was as good a punt.”
Maybe it just seems this way, but I feel that every time Manning has turned the ball over this year (and let me stress that I still maintain that a lot of the interceptions have not been his fault) it has literally sucked the life out of the team and fans. You don’t fumble the ball in the redzone. You don’t lose the ball when you’re cocking your arm to throw. That’s the kind of stuff you see at your kid’s Pop Warner game. Your kid’s hands are a lot smaller than Manning’s.
Granted the weather the last two weeks has been brutal, but come on kid get your act together.
on a second read all that just screams "HOF QB about to go on a magical SB run".
(none of this is a shot at Eric - he captured what was a plain reality at the time and was more measured than most in doing so - they've all just got selective amnesia) Game Review: New York Giants at Buffalo Bills, December 23, 2007 - ( New Window )
Jones is more the opposite. He's had some good games, with a mostly bad career, thus far.
Jones is more the opposite. He's had some good games, with a mostly bad career, thus far.
I consider eli a HOF QB so I don't think we disagree on that.
i was agreeing with what i think the premise of the thread is that people have memory holed the fact that through 4 years Eli was not a HOF QB - even just weeks ahead of what turned out to be his first SB run.
none of that has any relation to Jones. but it should be a cautionary tale that the nfl is unpredictable. who in a million years would have thought geno smith would be leading the seahawks to the playoffs while sb winning possible HOFer russell wilson is a joke?
end of the day you are what your record is and this year jones' record is a winning one and he's taken steps forward in almost every statistic. what if he unexpectedly beats philly this week? or has a big game in washington effectively punching the ticket to the playoffs? or wins a playoff game?
On the one hand you have a guy or guys if you will, who coming out had HOF coaches in the case of Phil Simms play on in a different era of the league ; have HOF coaches try and recruit them in the case of Bill Walsh or were consensus #1 picks or were rumored to be better than their brother while in college. They come out and have struggled at times. Like all QBs have done; Joe Montana Tom Brady Peyton Manning. All had disaster games at some point in their careers. Both Brady and Montana benched at some point.
So from their you stretch that argument to say that some other guy now who was a 0 star recruit, who had one coach in 3 -- who is a 3x fired coach and out of the NFL -- beleived in this guy. Who scouts ewre saying isn't even a day one pick. So you take these arguments now and say "hey those guys did it , so Jones should be able to do it too". Right. Lets extend him for 10s of millions of dollars. He can do it if there are others who can lift him up. Too bad a. I thoughts what they did when they traded up for K toney and signed Golliday. Neither look like they want to play here gee I wonder why? But but but Eli had Shockey and Tiki. Too bad he played better withput them.
But looking back on it now -- despite Eli's bad games and lack of consistency ; there was always reason to believe that one day he could go toe to toe with Aaron Rodgers, Bret Favre and Brady and look like the better QB. He was supposed to be that good. It was only a matter of time.
Oh, I see what you're doing here. Now let's compare the QBR stat. Everyone here knows you can use statistics to make them say anything you want. It is the classic half-empty/half-full perspective.
To me it's all about the intangibles that Eli possessed and that's where this debate should end. Stop with the different players, oline, coaches, different passing rules and the increase in global warming. Yes, I created a new stat just for the hell of it. It's just an inappropriate comparison but given this thread BBI is sure going to try as hard as it can because we have nothing else to do until the game on Sunday and then we can resume this ridiculous comparison.
Why don't we look at Eli and Daniel's success against the Eagles? Just kidding
Eli is the best Giants QB ever and won us 2 SBs
That being said, I saw Eli and Jones play at the same time in 2019 and Jones was the better QB.
Don't know what the point of comparing them now is going to do...Eli is doing fine on MNF and Jones is doing fine as NYG qb
Compare him to Jalen Hurts, Dak Prescott, Josh Allen, Justin Herbert, Joe Burrow, etc.
Compare him to Jalen Hurts, Dak Prescott, Josh Allen, Justin Herbert, Joe Burrow, etc.
You sound new to bbi. He's compared to them constantly. Every day.
It is not putting down Eli to prop up Jones. Eli won two Super Bowls and both were with last minute drives for the win. One was against one of the greatest teams in NFL history(you could argue that Justin Tuck was the actual MVP). If you win two Super Bowls, you should be HoF. The last 6 years he had terrible teams(save 2016) that dragged his record down.
That said, was there any QB worse at running a screen than Eli? He was just plain awful on the required little touch pass required. On top of that Eli was a turnover machine.
Jones is not in Eli's league. But that does not mean that you cannot show the differences in supporting cast(Oline and WRs). You cannot deny what Jones has to work with when Sy'56 tells us weekly that the WRs are JV and the interior oline is awful.
But to understand why they ran that offense you have to understand the who the HC was. TC's main objective in restoring the franchise and winning a SB was "controlling the LOS". That was his words and Welly said it was "music to his ears" when asked about it after his opening presser. Think Welly liked getting abused in the Giants/Ravens SB? Ozzie Newsome was the very first hire at Cleveland. That Raven team remind anyone of someone from the 80's?
Like some and I said; Eli has some warts. Sometimes too many.
The goal was not to build Eli's stats. The goal was to win championships and they built teams accordingly.
What happens to a lot of those pass heavy teams lacking the physicality in the running game come playoff time? They meet its kryptonite and can't handle those elite fronts. Those type of D's also seem to have good secondary's with usually a elite player present. Look at last years SB for the most recent example.
So the vision for a TC team was not only to have one of those type of D's it was also to have a offense that could handle one. Both those SB's show this. Look at the box score and you will see the clear difference in teams. Parcell's 80's teams did the same thing. They beat offenses that that were the best of the year and the Giants O had a big hand in it. Play count and TOP have a big impact on games and the Giants offense could play this game.
If you want a idea what Eli's stats would have looked like I would consider 2011 as a guide. That was the only year he had a upper tier WR group with one elite option. To Matt M's point about 14/15 about Eli's production it was less about the WCO and more about OBJ and a improved OL imv. I do agree the WCO does run a offense emphasizing shorter passes YAC with completion percentage a high percentage as opposed to a deeper big strike approach of the TC/Gilbride offense. Really the 2013-17 time was about something much deeper. It was about destroying the physicality on the OL/front 7 imv. 2011 had the QB and skill group to navigate this and the D actually rose to the occasion by the Dallas game and through the playoffs. That OL outside SF managed to do the same. By 2013 the OL bottomed out and that was one half of the destruction. The other side joined them in 2014. The 2008-2014 drafts tell why it happened that did not get much better in the years after. Nicks 2012 injury had a very big impact on the offense. After TB he was never the same.
Last points of Eli's first 4 years. Two of them were with the old D back rules. The NFCE was a much better division and for 2004-06 the HC's were Parcells, Gibbs, TC, Reid/Johnson. Then Phillips took over that 2007 team that Parcells built.
Jones is not Eli's equal imv. Jones has never had a OL nor a 2011 group of skill guys like Eli had either. It's not about the comparison to Eli. It's what his potential could have been with either type of team. We still don't know this imv.
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Jones has yet to be there once. He was top 10 in TDS 10 times. Top 10 in passing yards 7 times. I wouldn’t rank Cousins, Dalton, or Palmer over Eli at any point in their respective careers.
Oh, I see what you're doing here. Now let's compare the QBR stat. Everyone here knows you can use statistics to make them say anything you want. It is the classic half-empty/half-full perspective.
To me it's all about the intangibles that Eli possessed and that's where this debate should end. Stop with the different players, oline, coaches, different passing rules and the increase in global warming. Yes, I created a new stat just for the hell of it. It's just an inappropriate comparison but given this thread BBI is sure going to try as hard as it can because we have nothing else to do until the game on Sunday and then we can resume this ridiculous comparison.
Why don't we look at Eli and Daniel's success against the Eagles? Just kidding
What are you even saying
none of that takes away from what Eli ended up accomplishing, it just shows that wasn't easily predictable even several years into his career. none of that predicts future success for jones either - nobody can predict how this season will end any more than nobody would have predicted how it started.
if statistical similarity is all that matters, which no doubt would likely be the position his agent takes right now, here are a range of jones to peers comps for you from this season. some of these guys have also had bad supporting casts this year due to injury, but even with that i think it's hard to argue any has been significantly worse than jones'. i left out the comps on either extreme that aren't relevant, we all know he's not burrow/mahomes/allen or mac jones/zach wilson/baker.
none of that takes away from what Eli ended up accomplishing, it just shows that wasn't easily predictable even several years into his career. none of that predicts future success for jones either - nobody can predict how this season will end any more than nobody would have predicted how it started.
if statistical similarity is all that matters, which no doubt would likely be the position his agent takes right now, here are a range of jones to peers comps for you from this season. some of these guys have also had bad supporting casts this year due to injury, but even with that i think it's hard to argue any has been significantly worse than jones'. i left out the comps on either extreme that aren't relevant, we all know he's not burrow/mahomes/allen or mac jones/zach wilson/baker.
That’s a great post, Eric. Thank you.
Looking the Hurts and Jones comparison the YPA stands out.
I look at it saying would Brown catch that ball that Slayton dropped? Jones YPA certainly would see quite a bump as that was a plus 50 pass.
Still, this does not change my feeling that I am very neutral on Jones and cost is my biggest worry in addition to finding a better option in the draft. But he really has not had a very good environment either.
Eli threw for for 4,299 yards and 21 TDs in 2018. Odell missed the final four games, including a 3 TD effort by Eli where he threw TDs to such stars as Russell Shepard and Bennie Fowler.
Giants put up 23.1 PPG that year.
The 2017 Giants had Eli throwing for more yards and touchdowns than Jones will this year and Eli played in 15 games with Jones' projected 17.
And also it was clear Eli was a shell of himself both years.
That was Eli's most impressive season, especially considering his teammates, coaches and dysfunctional org.
Looking the Hurts and Jones comparison the YPA stands out.
I look at it saying would Brown catch that ball that Slayton dropped? Jones YPA certainly would see quite a bump as that was a plus 50 pass.
Still, this does not change my feeling that I am very neutral on Jones and cost is my biggest worry in addition to finding a better option in the draft. But he really has not had a very good environment either.
jmo but there's a lot of misunderstanding re "cost" and the economics of the QB position.
31m next year is likely be somewhere between the 12-16th highest QB cap hit. it also doesn't stop them from picking a QB in draft if they like one. or trading up for one like the niners did with Lance.
tyrod is not a viable starting option so unless Jones' play dramatically falls off where it is now i just don't see a better option. next year's FA class sucks (on the whole, not just qbs) and they have a ton of room so 1 year deals at higher AAVs dont bother me bc they carry no long term risk.
Looking the Hurts and Jones comparison the YPA stands out.
I look at it saying would Brown catch that ball that Slayton dropped? Jones YPA certainly would see quite a bump as that was a plus 50 pass.
is there a more talented thrower in football than Herbert? Nope.
but is he less able to make big plays without his top weapons and less time from a weaker OL? of course.
Tua and Hurts (as you mentioned) are 2 obvious other examples of positive improvement thanks to their new more explosive WRs improving their Y/A because they are hitting bigger plays. It's pretty obvious to me that y/a is more of an offense stat than an individual QB stat. Unless we think Geno Smith now deserves the HOF plaque that used to be earmarked for Russell Wilson.
that's a great point they should definitely try to get the next burrow. mahomes too for that matter.
Even a guy like PM. You look at his in season to playoff stats. Quite a difference and why I went into the Giants type of team they built under TC and why. Behind all those poorer stats for PM I imagine it was part PM but suspect that "stretch run" was operating all so hot either. Playoff football. Then the SB loss against Seattle. Denver met its kryptonite. Big time D strikes again against pass happy teams.
Eli was one of the most clutch quarterbacks when it mattered - all time. BTW, in his last playoff appearance he totally turned back the clock. It was the boat trip WR group who couldn't catch a cold in Lambeau.
Aaron Rodgers can't get it done during the postseason. Blames everyone else but himself. Maybe he's part of the problem?
It is true Giants fans were largely against Simms and Manning and then they turned it around. I want Jones to succeed here but we'll see.
Hard to fathom why this forum is addicted to discussing Jones. Win or lose there's a new Jones thread. Its like discussing politics now.
tyrod is not a viable starting option so unless Jones' play dramatically falls off where it is now i just don't see a better option. next year's FA class sucks (on the whole, not just qbs) and they have a ton of room so 1 year deals at higher AAVs dont bother me bc they carry no long term risk.
It's not my lead idea but starting Taylor as a bridge/mentor to a rookie QB would make a lot of sense cost wise. Taylor could play part of '23 and then gave the rookie QB live action in the second half. And then in 2024, the rookie could take over.
Thus, instead of tagging Jones with a $30M+ one year hit, use the money to upgrade other facets of the team.
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tyrod is not a viable starting option so unless Jones' play dramatically falls off where it is now i just don't see a better option. next year's FA class sucks (on the whole, not just qbs) and they have a ton of room so 1 year deals at higher AAVs dont bother me bc they carry no long term risk.
It's not my lead idea but starting Taylor as a bridge/mentor to a rookie QB would make a lot of sense cost wise. Taylor could play part of '23 and then gave the rookie QB live action in the second half. And then in 2024, the rookie could take over.
Thus, instead of tagging Jones with a $30M+ one year hit, use the money to upgrade other facets of the team.
Tyrod has played 21 games since 2017 and i believe entered at least 3 of those years as a starter before getting hurt within a few games - as happened in less than a quarter of the 1 game he entered this year.
If Tyrod is your starter you don't have a starter. He's barely durable enough to be considered a reliable backup.
In comment 15938411 jpennyva said:
It's not my lead idea but starting Taylor as a bridge/mentor to a rookie QB would make a lot of sense cost wise. Taylor could play part of '23 and then gave the rookie QB live action in the second half. And then in 2024, the rookie could take over.
Thus, instead of tagging Jones with a $30M+ one year hit, use the money to upgrade other facets of the team.
Tyrod has played 21 games since 2017 and i believe entered at least 3 of those years as a starter before getting hurt within a few games - as happened in less than a quarter of the 1 game he entered this year.
If Tyrod is your starter you don't have a starter. He's barely durable enough to be considered a reliable backup.
I'm okay with Taylor just being the seat-warmer until the rookie is ready for live fire. Pittsburgh has modeled this out with Trubisky and Pickett. And if Taylor does get hurt than the rookie has to gear up and play earlier. That's life in the big leagues.
Hell, I'd be okay with starting a rookie QB game 1 and dealing with the inevitable pain points.
Let's not forget Dan Marino was also a stat machine and didn't win jack.
Eli had a nice combination of game management, low risk ball with explosively crazy bouts of high risk.
Some of these big air attack offenses are totally failing now.
Giants have never had a big Air Attack except for Kerry Collins, who was a ton of fun to watch when he was ON