Eli Manning and the blue colored glasses of BBI

when time was running out in the 4th quarter and we were down in a 1 possession game, I had confidence that Eli would find a way to get the job done.

If they are being honest, not even the most ardent Jones supporter can say they have confidence that Jones has that same intangible quality. He's done it like twice in 4 years. New Orleans last year and week 3 or 4 this year - I can't remember the opponent.

And before you mention it, despite the game winning drives stat this year, I'm not impressed. At least 3 of those are due solely due to Saquon breaking off huge 4th quarter gains. I'm talking situations where it is the last possession of the game and you need your QB to make big plays. Jones doesn't have it, Eli did.

.

In comment 15937363 Coopcomic said:

Quote:

There was always a debate as to whether he was 'the guy'. And the SB solved that in a shocking year/way. Also - he had Shockey, Barber, Nicks, Cruz, etc. There at least was competence around him to wonder about that. It's very romanticized now. My hope is that DJ sticks, wins a SB, and puts this shit to bed.

2011 was some of the best, toughest qb play I have seen

In comment 15937392 Racer said:

Quote:

..that Greg Cosell's 2012 article "Cosell Talks: Eli's Arrived" from the NFL Films blog site is no longer available. No impressive catalog of stats, only his impressions from all the film study he'd done over the years and what he saw in the post season runs. Processing skill and a total absence of fear when faced with a tight window. ICE in his veins is a great trait in playoffs The stats provide context for some other argument, but not the one trying to convince me that Eli had more upside in big games against good defenses than most who have played the position.

I can't believe we're tearing down Eli Manning to prop up a mediocre QB like Daniel Jones.

Eli threw for for 4,299 yards and 21 TDs in 2018. Odell missed the final four games, including a 3 TD effort by Eli where he threw TDs to such stars as Russell Shepard and Bennie Fowler.

Giants put up 23.1 PPG that year.

The 2017 Giants had Eli throwing for more yards and touchdowns than Jones will this year and Eli played in 15 games with Jones' projected 17.

And also it was clear Eli was a shell of himself both years.

In comment 15937404 AnnapolisMike said:

Quote:

DJ's yards per game are the about the same as Eli's over his first 4 years. But you have to compare a guy with 3 different coaches to a QB who had stability and a team around him.

No one should be comparing YPG from a decade and a half ago to now without context.

Eli's passing YPG alongside the league average passing YPG from his first four seasons (games started only) were as follows:

2004: 139.6 (210.5); -34% below average
2005: 235.1 (203.5); +16% above average
2006: 202.8 (204.8); -1% below average
2007: 208.5 (214.3); -3% below average
First 4 years, combined: 205.8 (208.3); -1% below average

Now, let's do the same for Jones:

2019: 250.8 (235.0); +7% above average
2020: 210.2 (240.2); -12% below average
2021: 220.7 (228.3); -3% below average
2022: 197.1 (221.7); -11% below average
First 4 years, combined: 219.3 (231.3); -5% below average

One thing that jumps out is how much of an anomaly each QB's rookie year is relative to their respective numbers otherwise. DJ's passing numbers were more prolific in his rookie year, likely due to how QB-friendly Shurmur's offense was (and we saw that in Case Keenum's numbers in Minnesota the year before Shurmur was hired by the Giants). Meanwhile, Eli's rookie year reflected some sharp growing pains adjusting to the NFL in a complex scheme like Hufnagel's.

If you take DJ's rookie year out of the equation, DJ has averaged 209.1 passing YPG. The league average for those three years is 230.7 passing YPG. DJ has been -9% below league average for years 2-4.

Now compare that to Eli's numbers in years 2-4: Eli averaged 215.5 passing YPG. The league average for those three years was 207.5 passing YPG. Eli was +4% above league average for years 2-4. Also noteworthy, Eli had two different OCs during his first four seasons (Gilbride took over as OC midway through Eli's third season).

Should we look at other passing stats also, or do you want to just go ahead and pretend that you never made this silly comparison in the first place?

In comment 15937358 Ben in Tampa said:

Quote:

In year 4 of Eli Manning's career he had been to the playoffs three times, won a division title, thrown 77 touch downs was a Top 10 passer and he won the super bowl.

Come on. I can make stats say anything I want. Manning didn't have a single season in his first where his completion percentage or QB rating were as high as Jones' worst year. Manning's 77 TDs came in 57 games. Jones' 56 have come in 50 games. That's 1.34 a game to 1.1 a game. That means Jones would have had 63 in 57 games. Manning had also thrown a whopping 64 INTs, compared to Jones' 33. Manning ran for an amazing 77 yards, compared to Jones' 1,522 yards. And the "fumbler" Jones has had 22 fumbles in years 2, 3 and 4, despite being pounded behind a terrible O line, while Manning had 33 in years 2, 3 and 4.

The key facts from their first four years are this:
Manning had the same coaching staff all four years, while Jones has had three in four years. And Manning did all of that with a supporting cast that Jones can only dream of. Manning was sacked 93 times in those 77 games, compared to Jones' 142 in 55, a pretty good indicator of the difference in the offensive lines. Which Giants receiver this year is equal to 2005's Burress? Toomer? Which tight end is comparable to 2005's Shockey of Shiancoe? Which O linemen in Jones' first three years compares to 2005's Diehl, Pettigout, Seubert, Snee, and O'Hara? And Manning's supporting cast only improved the next two years. Not only that, how many times in Jones' career has he played with the same wide receivers more than two games in a row. The same O line. How often did Manning not have the same guys on the field with him?

Comparing Manning to Jones is apples and oranges because of the players around them and the coaching situations.

In comment 15937394 Gatorade Dunk said:
[quote] In comment 15937383 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 15937358 Ben in Tampa said:


Quote:


In year 4 of Eli Manning's career he had been to the playoffs three times, won a division title, thrown 77 touch downs was a Top 10 passer and he won the super bowl.



actually year 4 (2007) of eli he hadn't yet won a super bowl.

on 11/26/07 he threw 4 ints in the loss vs the vikings
on 12/16/07 he threw 2 ints in the loss to the redskins 22-10

And after the Washington loss he proceeded to win 12 of his next 14 games including 3 playoff games and the Super Bowl. (one of the losses being to 15-0 Patriots). So there's that.

How the Jones crowd isn’t using anything about Jones to bring him up to Eli’s level, it’s trying to bring Eli down to Jones’ level.

Eli Manning? Seriously? We're shitting on Eli fing Manning to prop up Daniel Jones. This is a sickness.

In comment 15937547 k2tampa said:

Quote:

Manning had the same coaching staff all four years

You sure about that?

In comment 15937426 ElitoCanton said:

Quote:

Nonsense. His 2011 season is one of the best QB seasons in the history of the game when you count both regular and postseason. There is so much revisionism about him it is sickening. And throughout his career he made tons of big plays and was killer at the end of games. The stats on comeback wins underplay this because of how often the defense gave up those 4th quarter leads he'd just gotten back. In comment 15937362 JerseyCityJoe said: Quote: What I loved about Eli was his ability to pick himself off the ground and go about his business. Never too high or too low he just kept on plugging. His two SB campaigns he elevated his game and carried the team when we needed it most. Not the greatest QB. But boy did he come though when we needed him.

Eli won NFC Offensive Player of the Week just four times in his whole career. That's the same amount as Kerry Collins.

First of all, I don't think Eli was an average QB for much of his career. He was a good to very good to great QB on a range of teams. More than half his career was wasted on teams with horrible OLs and little to no running game, thinking they could rely on just Eli and maybe a WR or two. The combination of Reese and Gettleman killed any chances of more playoff runs on the back 1/3 of Eli's career because of their inability to put even competent OL in front of him.

Then, when he had a good OL, he was very good and the Giants were very good. I will take Eli over Jones every day of the week, especially on Sunday. And for a game I have to win, I'm not even calling Jones.

When Jones throws for 57000 yards, 366 td passes and wins two SB MVP awards, then you can compare.

At his present rate, Jones should hit 57000 yards in another 16-18 years and should throw his 366th td pass in about 20.

Manning's last year as a full time starter, he threw for 4300 yards, 21 td's and 7.5 yards an attempt at age 37. Jones threw 24 td passes his rookie year. It took him the following two seasons to total 21. Jones hasn't come close to either of the other two marks

GTFO with this idiotic comparison.

want to make for Jones every step of the way, week to week, career, etc. And, then turn around and blast Eli, who actually performed with all levels of teams around him? Fuck that.

I think he’s a good kid. Smart, tough, arm seems to be good enough, leaves a few plays out there.

That said, please stop comparing him to Eli, Rodgers, Russel Wilson, etc etc etc.

And that’s coming from a poster who believes you might be able to win with Jones.

In comment 15937571 Jerry in_DC said:

Quote:

Eli Manning? Seriously? We're shitting on Eli fing Manning to prop up Daniel Jones. This is a sickness.

Well, many have been doing a pretty good job shitting on DJ, using Manning as a reference or saying unless you have a top 10 QB...you can't win.

Well, Eli for the majority of his career was decidedly not a top 10 QB. Eli was a good QB, with balls of stone and a personality that could handle the BS in NY. It worked. He had consistency in coaching (as much as you can in the NFL) and was a cold blooded killer during those two playoff runs. The mentions of the SF NFCCG are spot on. That was Eli at his absolute best as a competitor.

In comment 15937600 AnnapolisMike said:

Quote:

In comment 15937571 Jerry in_DC said: Quote: Eli Manning? Seriously? We're shitting on Eli fing Manning to prop up Daniel Jones. This is a sickness. Well, many have been doing a pretty good job shitting on DJ, using Manning as a reference or saying unless you have a top 10 QB...you can't win. Well, Eli for the majority of his career was decidedly not a top 10 QB. Eli was a good QB, with balls of stone and a personality that could handle the BS in NY. It worked. He had consistency in coaching (as much as you can in the NFL) and was a cold blooded killer during those two playoff runs. The mentions of the SF NFCCG are spot on. That was Eli at his absolute best as a competitor.

I would argue for a good portion he was a top 10 and a few times top 5. Even when you want to consider him outside the top 10, he was not a bottom half QB. I'm sorry. Jones is not in the same class as Manning. Period.

Please make this stop.

In comment 15937595 Matt M. said:

Quote:

want to make for Jones every step of the way, week to week, career, etc. And, then turn around and blast Eli, who actually performed with all levels of teams around him? Fuck that.

How has Eli been blasted? Seriously. I actually took pains to compliment Eli for what he did as a NYG. But Eli was not what so many want to remember him as. He was a long way from an elite level QB from year to year. That is not blasting him...it is simply who he was. Few if any QB's could of survived in NY like Eli did and come out on the other side as loved and admired as Eli currently is.

In comment 15937602 Matt M. said:

Quote:

In comment 15937600 AnnapolisMike said: Quote: In comment 15937571 Jerry in_DC said: Quote: Eli Manning? Seriously? We're shitting on Eli fing Manning to prop up Daniel Jones. This is a sickness. Well, many have been doing a pretty good job shitting on DJ, using Manning as a reference or saying unless you have a top 10 QB...you can't win. Well, Eli for the majority of his career was decidedly not a top 10 QB. Eli was a good QB, with balls of stone and a personality that could handle the BS in NY. It worked. He had consistency in coaching (as much as you can in the NFL) and was a cold blooded killer during those two playoff runs. The mentions of the SF NFCCG are spot on. That was Eli at his absolute best as a competitor. I would argue for a good portion he was a top 10 and a few times top 5. Even when you want to consider him outside the top 10, he was not a bottom half QB. I'm sorry. Jones is not in the same class as Manning. Period. Please make this stop.

Matt, What years was Eli statistically a top 10 QB during his career?

him?

Brady, Rodgers, Peyton, Brees and who else? The only time he wasn’t a top 10 QB was during the last 4 or 5 years

In comment 15937496 ajr2456 said:

Quote:

Was very different in Eli’s early years. It’s much easier to pass the ball and at a higher volume currently.

This is a very good point.

Just to show how absurd this can get, here are Peyton Manning's first four years in Indy:

81 INTs, completion%: 62%, TD/INT ratio: 1.34 (higher the better), INT%: 3.5 (lower the better). His Passer Rating average (there was no QBR) was about 85.

Jones's first four years:

33 INTs, completion%: 63.5%, TD/INT ratio: 1.70, INT%: 2. His Passer Rating average is 85.8.

Does anyone want to say Jones looks better after his first four years than the better Manning?

and not just tools either.

I do not agree with anyone who will not say that Eli had a much better skill group outside RB and I take TB and then Jacobs/Ward/Bradshaw over SB. All of Eli's backs were outstanding pass protectors and some were devastating to oncoming defenders trying to hit their QB.

But the really big difference is the quality of the OL. The same one this franchise has tried to fix. It ruined the back half of Eli's career and crippled Jones career.

Eli's OL made running backs productive. This one needs scheme, Jones and SB to make it for the most part though they have had good moments. Eli's OL were good in PP regardless of down/distance. This one you hope its just one D guy getting a break away when facing good fronts.

PM? As great as he was let's not forget who is GM was. The one that put together the talent needed around a QB. Stretch run? The play the offense was built off of. Hall of fame Harrison? TE?

.

In comment 15937615 ajr2456 said:

Quote:

him? Brady, Rodgers, Peyton, Brees and who else? The only time he wasn’t a top 10 QB was during the last 4 or 5 years

Not many directly overlap...

Farve, Romo, Roethlisberger, Carson Palmer, Rivers, Wilson, Ryan, Stafford, Kirk Cousins, Andy Dalton.

Almost all these guys generally had QBR's above Eli who was usually in the mid teens. Eli was top 10 2008 thru 2012 when he had a really good team and offensive line. Shockingly, when he did not have a good supporting cast he was average.

Of course Eli wasn't Aaron Rodgers. Not even the biggest Eli homers-which I count myself as-would say that. But it is an insult to compare him to DJ.

Jones has yet to be there once. He was top 10 in TDS 10 times. Top 10 in passing yards 7 times. I wouldn’t rank Cousins, Dalton, or Palmer over Eli at any point in their respective careers.

In comment 15937621 Lines of Scrimmage said:

Quote:

and not just tools either. I do not agree with anyone who will not say that Eli had a much better skill group outside RB and I take TB and then Jacobs/Ward/Bradshaw over SB. All of Eli's backs were outstanding pass protectors and some were devastating to oncoming defenders trying to hit their QB. But the really big difference is the quality of the OL. The same one this franchise has tried to fix. It ruined the back half of Eli's career and crippled Jones career. Eli's OL made running backs productive. This one needs scheme, Jones and SB to make it for the most part though they have had good moments. Eli's OL were good in PP regardless of down/distance. This one you hope its just one D guy getting a break away when facing good fronts. PM? As great as he was let's not forget who is GM was. The one that put together the talent needed around a QB. Stretch run? The play the offense was built off of. Hall of fame Harrison? TE?

Jacobs was a 6th olineman.

Eli was frustrating and erratic, but when he was at his best he was far better than Daniel Jones could ever dream of being.

That's why he has two rings and Rodgers and Brees only have one each. Say whatever you want about compiling stats outside of those conditions. I'll take the rings.

In comment 15937655 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

Eli was frustrating and erratic, but when he was at his best he was far better than Daniel Jones could ever dream of being.

Yeah, ludicrous is spot on. Eli is going to end up in Canton. DJ never will.

In comment 15937631 ajr2456 said:

Quote:

Jones has yet to be there once. He was top 10 in TDS 10 times. Top 10 in passing yards 7 times. I wouldn’t rank Cousins, Dalton, or Palmer over Eli at any point in their respective careers.

Unfortunately they and many others ranked ahead of Eli at times during their respective careers in terms of QBR so that point is mute. Want to judge by W-L. Eli had a winning record half the time by season and a 118-118 career. One and done in the playoffs 4 times.

The goal here is not to beat up on Eli...but people insist on trying to compare Jones to Eli. Eli was a good QB that managed to be a central part of two amazing runs. You take those away...Eli is a long shot HOF candidate ad best. His longevity being the reason he would get there.

still be crapping on him. Its like if you are not Tom Brady then you shouldn't get any credit

In comment 15937660 widmerseyebrow said:

Quote:

That's why he has two rings and Rodgers and Brees only have one each. Say whatever you want about compiling stats outside of those conditions. I'll take the rings.

I will take the rings as well. But that does not change the fact they were substantially better QB's. Great defense and some very fortunate plays are important factors in each of those SB wins. Eli was not the one that limited NE to 14 and 17 points.

The 4 other times the Giants made the playoffs with Eli, he did not elevate the team and he generally played poorly in all those losses.

Is Eli going to the HOF?

In comment 15937680 AnnapolisMike said:

Quote:

Is Eli going to the HOF?

No way. Those runs helped offset a regular season career that didn't have enough high points.

Mike Greenberg on Eli's HOF candidacy.
Link - ( New Window )

And we’ve got people comparing him to Eli. We’ll see what Schoen & Daboll ultimately think.

How it would have affected Eli’s stats and others opinions if he was in a simplified offensive system. They depended on him to do so much. My understanding was with Gilbride the receiver and Eli had to be on the same page. When it worked, it was beautiful to see (Cruz vs. Rogers in SF 2012. My favorite Eli game!) To me it never seemed Eli was great at throwing short passes, but running a slightly more simplified offense with “regular” routes may have resulted in improved stats and maybe even more wins. In addition, I believe the system called for throwing the ball further down the field as opposed to more mid level or short routes. Regardless, it’s all about the rings.

I think Schoen & Daboll want their own dude @ QB. Unless DJ looked like Mahomes this season, I think their inclination was to move on. Just my feel.

NFL Championships were dominated by 6 quarterbacks.

Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Manning and Manning. All of them played each other for the most part either in the playoffs or in Super Bowls. Not another QB won until Flacco did in 2012.

Eli belongs in that class of QBs. The only QBs who compared in terms of regular season stats or consistency over that span are Rivers, Romo, McNabb and maybe late career Favre.

Also, when Eli broke into the league in 2004, it was a completely different playing field than it was for Daniel Jones. There is no comparison to be made.

In comment 15937700 Sean said:

Quote:

And we’ve got people comparing him to Eli. We’ll see what Schoen & Daboll ultimately think.

LOL dude. You are the one tossing comparisons left and right. I write a post saying Eli was essentially an average QB most of his career. His statistics and the Giants record with him as the starting QB support that. I am tired of the comparisons to Eli, because they are unfair considering the hand that Jones has been dealt.

In comment 15937708 Chris684 said:

Quote:

NFL Championships were dominated by 6 quarterbacks. Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Manning and Manning. All of them played each other for the most part either in the playoffs or in Super Bowls. Not another QB won until Flacco did in 2012. Eli belongs in that class of QBs. The only QBs who compared in terms of regular season stats or consistency over that span are Rivers, Romo, McNabb and maybe late career Favre. Also, when Eli broke into the league in 2004, it was a completely different playing field than it was for Daniel Jones. There is no comparison to be made.

Great point. Yet, the OP lumps in 2013-2019 Eli. Eli is only a .500 QB because of the back end of his career. Eli from 2005-2012 was a big time QB who happened to be a 2x SB MVP.

In comment 15937710 AnnapolisMike said:

Quote:

In comment 15937700 Sean said: Quote: And we’ve got people comparing him to Eli. We’ll see what Schoen & Daboll ultimately think. LOL dude. You are the one tossing comparisons left and right. I write a post saying Eli was essentially an average QB most of his career. His statistics and the Giants record with him as the starting QB support that. I am tired of the comparisons to Eli, because they are unfair considering the hand that Jones has been dealt.

What contract would you offer Jones?

In comment 15937677 AnnapolisMike said:

Quote:

In comment 15937660 widmerseyebrow said: Quote: That's why he has two rings and Rodgers and Brees only have one each. Say whatever you want about compiling stats outside of those conditions. I'll take the rings. I will take the rings as well. But that does not change the fact they were substantially better QB's. Great defense and some very fortunate plays are important factors in each of those SB wins. Eli was not the one that limited NE to 14 and 17 points. The 4 other times the Giants made the playoffs with Eli, he did not elevate the team and he generally played poorly in all those losses.

Out of his 12 playoff games he played well in 10 of them. He played badly in 2005 and 2008 but in 2006 brought them back on the road in Philly only to have the defense allow a gw FG and in 2016 played well enough for them to win.

One of 5 players to win 2 SB MVP's...another interesting stat I found 2nd all time with 44 game-tying or go-ahead TDs in the 4th quarter or OT.

And never had the consistent supporting cast that Rodgers has had and Rodgers only has one ring.

This is such a ridiculous thread.

No. Eli isn't Aaron Rodgers or TB12 or Mahomes.

But no, DJ isn't even in Eli's stratosphere.

In comment 15937700 Sean said:

Quote:

And we’ve got people comparing him to Eli. We’ll see what Schoen & Daboll ultimately think.

Heinicke has a number of physical limitations that should preclude him from being an NFL starter.

But this 4th down player against NYG on Sunday was an incredible off-script play. Those types of plays, I believe, are what QBs need to have in their arsenal to succeed in the NFL. Anyone think Jones makes this play?


Heinicke Miracle - ( New Window )

without Peyton’s arm.
He put every play on himself, thus the chance-taking.
2004/5 the team’ s receivers were OK, but the D and OL was not there, yet. Snee was in y1/2 and it wasn’t until 06 when they got McKenzie , and Plax to add to Shockeyand Toomer to open the O for him.
He made a lot of throws that were picked because he put every play on himself.
Gave me lots of aggita with some of the boneheadedness, but, he was who and what he was..
2012- 17 Reese failed him and he got the snot kicked out of him, as well as the team.
DG was even worse 2018-2021 to the whole team. Especially drafting only 6 OL when we needed one early each year, but he chose to overpay for FAs , stymying the cap, and hamstringing the O talent wise.
Can Danny be Eli? For a few SB Wins I hope, but it’d be nice if they built a decent enough team to evaluate him, but it’s possibly they’ll move on from him, build their vision, and hope….
As an old guy, I’m against the move on from that perspective, mostly because I don’t see a QB out there to get, in 23 , to build around, that they can reach, with all the holes they still have( and the injuries to the entire ‘22 class pushing those picks back a year, if they can come back).

In comment 15937714 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

This is such a ridiculous thread. No. Eli isn't Aaron Rodgers or TB12 or Mahomes. But no, DJ isn't even in Eli's stratosphere.

i think the point being lost on people is eli at this point in year 4 wasn't on eli's stratosphere. anyone who says they weren't worried about him after the Sharper game, the Redskin loss at home, and the Buffalo game where they only attempted like 1 pass in the second half and "backed into the playoffs" ahead of the NE game in week 17 2007 is a liar.

yes, some may spin themselves up with tales of him leading teams to the playoffs but i was at the philly game and the 3 int carolina shutout. those appearances was not a feather in anyone's cap at the time.

eli's arc is in no way predictive of jones but it is a good example of how much can change quickly in the nfl. eli was a punchline even through that sb win (worst qb to win a sb, etc).

Quote:

are we doing this?

Seriously! Why?