Definitely this no Williams is a player worth extending if the price isn’t to crazy. Him and Williams are as good as any tow player combo on the D line
I make: if NYG receive an offer they 'can't refuse',
His 18M salary is not guaranteed. If he's a Giant next year (not cut or traded), they will be paying 18M in new cash.
I think you're referring to if we do a post June 1st cut we will save 18 million against next years cap. Please keep in mind that doing this will push some of the cap savings as a hit into the following year since it is post June 1st.
Prior to June 1st there is a 12 million dollar savings. The question would really be this, can you find a better DT for 12 million? The answer would be no.
If it were this past off season, we would have 100% cut him and took the 12 million. We're not in that bad of a cap situation next year.
Sure players get hurt. But Williams will be in his 9th season, coming off two presumably two just OK seasons, where he got banged up.
Put it another way, if Williams was an UFA, would you pay him 1/18M?
leo starting to show some wear and tear
salary may be too much may have to conbsider some younger options and using cap money other areas go more of a run stuffer with a bit of pass rush with Dex showing all around ability and our ERs potentially being a force if healthy
His 18M salary is not guaranteed. If he's a Giant next year (not cut or traded), they will be paying 18M in new cash.
I think you're referring to if we do a post June 1st cut we will save 18 million against next years cap. Please keep in mind that doing this will push some of the cap savings as a hit into the following year since it is post June 1st.
Prior to June 1st there is a 12 million dollar savings. The question would really be this, can you find a better DT for 12 million? The answer would be no.
If it were this past off season, we would have 100% cut him and took the 12 million. We're not in that bad of a cap situation next year.
No, I'm not. I'm not referring to his cap hit. I'm referring to how much new cash the Giants would be paying him if he plays under his current deal, which is 18M.
Between Lawrence, Olujari, and Thibs, the Giants have a nice exterior/interior pass rush core that will be under contract for a while provided Lawrence gets extended.
Williams will eat up a ton of cap space for specialty that is redundant, and his presence has not contributed to a great run defense. Sure; that's probably as much on the inside linebackers as anybody else, but you can also take his cap dollars and distribute them to linebackers or other positions of need such as CB.
Giants would've been better off not making the trade and holding onto BJ Hill.
I expect the Giants to draft an inside linebacker and an interior defensive lineman quite high next year. I also expect them to pursue both in UFA as well. They simply cannot continue to defend the run so poorly and expect to contend.
If he's healthy and playing,, he's really expensive but you can live
with it. But if he's starting to break down, then it's a big problem. These seem to be small injuries he's had, but he's previously been durable and rarely missed games, so hopefully this isn't the start of a trend.
He is one of the key vet leaders in the locker room
I expect the Giants to draft an inside linebacker and an interior defensive lineman quite high next year. I also expect them to pursue both in UFA as well. They simply cannot continue to defend the run so poorly and expect to contend.
would be my hope too
defense is solid ilbs, active run stuffing DT and a solid cb from elite
add just real good ILB, space eater who can stop run at DT and decent CB, at least a legit top 10
real building blocks with X, adoree, love,thibs, ojulari and Dex
I expect the Giants to draft an inside linebacker and an interior defensive lineman quite high next year. I also expect them to pursue both in UFA as well. They simply cannot continue to defend the run so poorly and expect to contend.
would be my hope too
defense is solid ilbs, active run stuffing DT and a solid cb from elite
add just real good ILB, space eater who can stop run at DT and decent CB, at least a legit top 10
real building blocks with X, adoree, love,thibs, ojulari and Dex
I thought Dexter Lawrence was the run-stuffer.
RE: He is one of the key vet leaders in the locker room
it's not ideal, and for some position groups it is less valuable and reliabe then others. Football is so interdependent - a true team sport. you really have to watch IDL on film AND know/ understand what they are being asked to do within the sceme to evaluate them.
that said, I think Leo is still playing at a high level since coming back. He was terrorizing qbs for a few weeks.
Part of the context of not converting pressure to sacks is the secondary obvs. I think our whole front 4 would have better numbers with 1 second more coverage. hell even half a second.
guy is under 30, durable, and a leader. I hope he is extended. It looks like we finally have a true strength as a unit. possibly an identity.
watch whay dex gets or what the market does for IDL. 18 will seem a bargain. We have money. that's not an issue going forward
He is not individually 'worth' what they are paying him. But he make those around him better. They are going to have to find a way to reduce that cap hit next year.
He is great and plays the role he is asked to play
he stays. If not, move on. After signing Dex to an extension, too much money will be tied up in DT. Schoen made a point about “positional value” when he first came here.
1) I'm not sure his productivity is that hard to replace. I think the Giants have plenty of pass rush fire power between Ojulari, Thibs, and Lawrence
2) The Giants are getting demolished in the run game. They might be better off looking for a few running stopping lineman, and bolster the depth.
FWIW, Sy thinks Leo and Dex are one of the best inside DL combos in football. Actually, I think Sy said they are the best.
Yes he is overpaid a bit because of dipshit Gettleman effing up the cap, but he is worth every penny they pay him.
I expect the Giants to draft an inside linebacker and an interior defensive lineman quite high next year. I also expect them to pursue both in UFA as well. They simply cannot continue to defend the run so poorly and expect to contend.
would be my hope too
defense is solid ilbs, active run stuffing DT and a solid cb from elite
add just real good ILB, space eater who can stop run at DT and decent CB, at least a legit top 10
real building blocks with X, adoree, love,thibs, ojulari and Dex
I thought Dexter Lawrence was the run-stuffer.
Dex is a run stuffer. But he also brings a pass rush
Hence he will be real pricey
Pure run stuffer DT in draft rds 3-5 and a rotational vet would be a hecka lot cheaper than Leo
Maybe a 2024 discusssion
he stays. If not, move on. After signing Dex to an extension, too much money will be tied up in DT. Schoen made a point about “positional value” when he first came here.
This X 100.
Having two high paid DTs is as inefficient as having two high paid safeties or running backs.
Is less about his value and more about what you think about 2023. He's a good player, overpaid. But having some good players who are overpaid is not a disaster. You need good players and you need to pay someone.
The question to me is - how hard are we pushing in 23? Or alternatively, are we OK pulling back in 23? If the answer to that is yes - we are shooting for 24 and beyond - then taking some cap medicine and losing some talent is fine.
As others have noted its also an opportunity to rebalance the roster. But if we're trying in 23, then it's a tougher pill to swallow. We are not likely to replace his level of talent and our D has less upside.
Leonard is already under contract next year with a massive $32 million plus cap hit. Leonard Williams Contract Details - ( New Window )
He’s a really good player and great teammate. That he is $32 million against the cap is bizzaro world insanity. His $20 million dead money if cut is bizzaro world insanity.
Good lord, drunken sailors at Hunts Point during Fleet Week make better decisions with their money than Gettleman did.
but I still maintain it was a bad trade and worse deal. Up until the trade, he had one better than average year, where I believe he made the pro bowl. The rest of his time with the Jets was mostly disappointing, including the half season before the trade.
That half season with the Giants was good, but the deal they gave him was nuts based on past performance. Obviously, that next year was outstanding. But, since, he has been a very good, but not great player due in part to nagging injuries. They paid him like Donald or Suh in his prime and he just isn't that elite player. He is probably the next tier.
Next year, I believe his cap hit is over $30M. This had to factor into the decision on Jones, because if they pay Jones what many think is the market for him, that is over $60M of the cap, or more than 25%, dedicated to 2 players and neither are likely to be the top of their position moving forward.
but I still maintain it was a bad trade and worse deal. Up until the trade, he had one better than average year, where I believe he made the pro bowl. The rest of his time with the Jets was mostly disappointing, including the half season before the trade.
That half season with the Giants was good, but the deal they gave him was nuts based on past performance. Obviously, that next year was outstanding. But, since, he has been a very good, but not great player due in part to nagging injuries. They paid him like Donald or Suh in his prime and he just isn't that elite player. He is probably the next tier.
Next year, I believe his cap hit is over $30M. This had to factor into the decision on Jones, because if they pay Jones what many think is the market for him, that is over $60M of the cap, or more than 25%, dedicated to 2 players and neither are likely to be the top of their position moving forward.
I think they will lower that cap number. I would seek to extend him. He is getting paid commensurate with his status as ~top 5 at his position, which I think he is.
If anyone thinks he is mediocre, or not one of the best at his position (not the best, but among the best), please immediately put on the Seahawks tape this year. Or the Texans. Or the Lions.
Do players get dinged up and then their effectiveness is diminished sometimes? That's true of every player at every position. Name a player that has any longevity in this league and I'll show you a player that has some tape where he didn't look at his best because he was playing with an injury. It happens to everyone. But healthy, Williams is a beast, and the tandem with Dexter Lawrence should be maintained for at least the next couple of years while they seek to replenish the position in the draft.
I would seek to extend Williams if possible. We're lucky to have him.
KC is paying both Chris Jones and Frank Clark a combined $35M AAV right now while Mahomes rakes in $45M AAV.
They are a pretty good team, and there is no problem paying two premium talents on your DL premium money, particularly with Thibodeaux being a big part of the future and on a rookie deal, and Ojulari on his rookie deal through 2024.
I would love to see them take another DT on day 1 or day 2 in the draft who is a disruptor (if value is there). Perhaps one of the Clemson guys or Roy from LSU.
The trade for Williams was always the breaking point
for me with DG. Was unimpressed the moment he starting trading talent away for jock straps, but was willing to give him a shot. Trading a third rounder on a losing team for a guy on an expiring contract was a fireable offense. We ended up paying more for LW than we would if we had just waited and signed him in FA, and we lost a third.
Having said that, Williams has played up to his contract. Maybe the only major signing of the DG era that did. If he is healthy next year you pay him. He is that good. But don't extend him. He is too old. And if he is less than 100% cut, pay cut, or trade are all viable (although the last is unlikely). If healthy don't think he is taking a pay cut, since he will get one more decent contract. He will turn 29 right about the start of the league year. I think he is still a top 5 or 10 DT in the game.
KC is paying both Chris Jones and Frank Clark a combined $35M AAV right now while Mahomes rakes in $45M AAV.
Clark has underperformed, but at least he's an edge guy. A premium position. And Jones is the best DT in the NFL right now with this ability to rush the passer. So, the Chiefs have at least designated money for the right skill: pass rush.
With a second contract looming on Lawrence, who is playing great, it just doesn't make any sense to have so much cap money allocated to the DT position.
As of right now, the smart move would be to move LW in 2023 by either release or trade. Ideally, it would be post-June 1st because that provides the best results from cap savings and dead cap impact.
1) I'm not sure his productivity is that hard to replace. I think the Giants have plenty of pass rush fire power between Ojulari, Thibs, and Lawrence
2) The Giants are getting demolished in the run game. They might be better off looking for a few running stopping lineman, and bolster the depth.
The run game issues have nothing to do with Leo or Dex. It's the LBs who consistently don't fill their gaps properly and inconsistent edge setting. Leo and Dex are doing their jobs in the run game.
in the pass rush game, BW. He's a very good all around 3-4 DE.
There is nothing wrong with paying Leo and extending Lawrence, particularly while Thibs and Ojulari are on their rookie deals.
If the Giants did nothing at the Edge position from now until 2025, they would have Thibs and Ojaluri providing the pass rush for a combined $9.5M AAV for the next two seasons after this one.
Further, the Giants may find themselves with a new QB on a rookie deal until the 2027 season, perhaps 2028 if the 5th year option is in play.
If that's the case, there's no issue paying a highly disruptive DT tandem.
was okay with the long term deal. Unfortunately, he hasn't been able to really get going this season. Is he going to appear on the injury report this week?
Leonard Williams Contract Details - ( New Window )
Put it another way, if Williams was an UFA, would you pay him 1/18M?
And replace him with who?
I think you're referring to if we do a post June 1st cut we will save 18 million against next years cap. Please keep in mind that doing this will push some of the cap savings as a hit into the following year since it is post June 1st.
Prior to June 1st there is a 12 million dollar savings. The question would really be this, can you find a better DT for 12 million? The answer would be no.
If it were this past off season, we would have 100% cut him and took the 12 million. We're not in that bad of a cap situation next year.
Put it another way, if Williams was an UFA, would you pay him 1/18M?
leo starting to show some wear and tear
salary may be too much may have to conbsider some younger options and using cap money other areas go more of a run stuffer with a bit of pass rush with Dex showing all around ability and our ERs potentially being a force if healthy
2) The Giants are getting demolished in the run game. They might be better off looking for a few running stopping lineman, and bolster the depth.
Quote:
His 18M salary is not guaranteed. If he's a Giant next year (not cut or traded), they will be paying 18M in new cash.
I think you're referring to if we do a post June 1st cut we will save 18 million against next years cap. Please keep in mind that doing this will push some of the cap savings as a hit into the following year since it is post June 1st.
Prior to June 1st there is a 12 million dollar savings. The question would really be this, can you find a better DT for 12 million? The answer would be no.
If it were this past off season, we would have 100% cut him and took the 12 million. We're not in that bad of a cap situation next year.
No, I'm not. I'm not referring to his cap hit. I'm referring to how much new cash the Giants would be paying him if he plays under his current deal, which is 18M.
Williams will eat up a ton of cap space for specialty that is redundant, and his presence has not contributed to a great run defense. Sure; that's probably as much on the inside linebackers as anybody else, but you can also take his cap dollars and distribute them to linebackers or other positions of need such as CB.
Giants would've been better off not making the trade and holding onto BJ Hill.
Worth every penny
would be my hope too
defense is solid ilbs, active run stuffing DT and a solid cb from elite
add just real good ILB, space eater who can stop run at DT and decent CB, at least a legit top 10
real building blocks with X, adoree, love,thibs, ojulari and Dex
Quote:
I expect the Giants to draft an inside linebacker and an interior defensive lineman quite high next year. I also expect them to pursue both in UFA as well. They simply cannot continue to defend the run so poorly and expect to contend.
would be my hope too
defense is solid ilbs, active run stuffing DT and a solid cb from elite
add just real good ILB, space eater who can stop run at DT and decent CB, at least a legit top 10
real building blocks with X, adoree, love,thibs, ojulari and Dex
I thought Dexter Lawrence was the run-stuffer.
Worth every penny
He's certainly getting up there in years, but is he really producing?
that said, I think Leo is still playing at a high level since coming back. He was terrorizing qbs for a few weeks.
Part of the context of not converting pressure to sacks is the secondary obvs. I think our whole front 4 would have better numbers with 1 second more coverage. hell even half a second.
guy is under 30, durable, and a leader. I hope he is extended. It looks like we finally have a true strength as a unit. possibly an identity.
watch whay dex gets or what the market does for IDL. 18 will seem a bargain. We have money. that's not an issue going forward
Dline and pash rush impacts the game. You can put big money there on multiple positions.
2) The Giants are getting demolished in the run game. They might be better off looking for a few running stopping lineman, and bolster the depth.
FWIW, Sy thinks Leo and Dex are one of the best inside DL combos in football. Actually, I think Sy said they are the best.
Yes he is overpaid a bit because of dipshit Gettleman effing up the cap, but he is worth every penny they pay him.
Quote:
In comment 15937501 christian said:
Quote:
I expect the Giants to draft an inside linebacker and an interior defensive lineman quite high next year. I also expect them to pursue both in UFA as well. They simply cannot continue to defend the run so poorly and expect to contend.
would be my hope too
defense is solid ilbs, active run stuffing DT and a solid cb from elite
add just real good ILB, space eater who can stop run at DT and decent CB, at least a legit top 10
real building blocks with X, adoree, love,thibs, ojulari and Dex
I thought Dexter Lawrence was the run-stuffer.
Dex is a run stuffer. But he also brings a pass rush
Hence he will be real pricey
Pure run stuffer DT in draft rds 3-5 and a rotational vet would be a hecka lot cheaper than Leo
Maybe a 2024 discusssion
This X 100.
Having two high paid DTs is as inefficient as having two high paid safeties or running backs.
The question to me is - how hard are we pushing in 23? Or alternatively, are we OK pulling back in 23? If the answer to that is yes - we are shooting for 24 and beyond - then taking some cap medicine and losing some talent is fine.
As others have noted its also an opportunity to rebalance the roster. But if we're trying in 23, then it's a tougher pill to swallow. We are not likely to replace his level of talent and our D has less upside.
He’s a really good player and great teammate. That he is $32 million against the cap is bizzaro world insanity. His $20 million dead money if cut is bizzaro world insanity.
Good lord, drunken sailors at Hunts Point during Fleet Week make better decisions with their money than Gettleman did.
That half season with the Giants was good, but the deal they gave him was nuts based on past performance. Obviously, that next year was outstanding. But, since, he has been a very good, but not great player due in part to nagging injuries. They paid him like Donald or Suh in his prime and he just isn't that elite player. He is probably the next tier.
Next year, I believe his cap hit is over $30M. This had to factor into the decision on Jones, because if they pay Jones what many think is the market for him, that is over $60M of the cap, or more than 25%, dedicated to 2 players and neither are likely to be the top of their position moving forward.
That half season with the Giants was good, but the deal they gave him was nuts based on past performance. Obviously, that next year was outstanding. But, since, he has been a very good, but not great player due in part to nagging injuries. They paid him like Donald or Suh in his prime and he just isn't that elite player. He is probably the next tier.
Next year, I believe his cap hit is over $30M. This had to factor into the decision on Jones, because if they pay Jones what many think is the market for him, that is over $60M of the cap, or more than 25%, dedicated to 2 players and neither are likely to be the top of their position moving forward.
I think they will lower that cap number. I would seek to extend him. He is getting paid commensurate with his status as ~top 5 at his position, which I think he is.
If anyone thinks he is mediocre, or not one of the best at his position (not the best, but among the best), please immediately put on the Seahawks tape this year. Or the Texans. Or the Lions.
Do players get dinged up and then their effectiveness is diminished sometimes? That's true of every player at every position. Name a player that has any longevity in this league and I'll show you a player that has some tape where he didn't look at his best because he was playing with an injury. It happens to everyone. But healthy, Williams is a beast, and the tandem with Dexter Lawrence should be maintained for at least the next couple of years while they seek to replenish the position in the draft.
I would seek to extend Williams if possible. We're lucky to have him.
KC is paying both Chris Jones and Frank Clark a combined $35M AAV right now while Mahomes rakes in $45M AAV.
They are a pretty good team, and there is no problem paying two premium talents on your DL premium money, particularly with Thibodeaux being a big part of the future and on a rookie deal, and Ojulari on his rookie deal through 2024.
I would love to see them take another DT on day 1 or day 2 in the draft who is a disruptor (if value is there). Perhaps one of the Clemson guys or Roy from LSU.
Having said that, Williams has played up to his contract. Maybe the only major signing of the DG era that did. If he is healthy next year you pay him. He is that good. But don't extend him. He is too old. And if he is less than 100% cut, pay cut, or trade are all viable (although the last is unlikely). If healthy don't think he is taking a pay cut, since he will get one more decent contract. He will turn 29 right about the start of the league year. I think he is still a top 5 or 10 DT in the game.
KC is paying both Chris Jones and Frank Clark a combined $35M AAV right now while Mahomes rakes in $45M AAV.
Clark has underperformed, but at least he's an edge guy. A premium position. And Jones is the best DT in the NFL right now with this ability to rush the passer. So, the Chiefs have at least designated money for the right skill: pass rush.
With a second contract looming on Lawrence, who is playing great, it just doesn't make any sense to have so much cap money allocated to the DT position.
As of right now, the smart move would be to move LW in 2023 by either release or trade. Ideally, it would be post-June 1st because that provides the best results from cap savings and dead cap impact.
My thoughts exactly
2) The Giants are getting demolished in the run game. They might be better off looking for a few running stopping lineman, and bolster the depth.
The run game issues have nothing to do with Leo or Dex. It's the LBs who consistently don't fill their gaps properly and inconsistent edge setting. Leo and Dex are doing their jobs in the run game.
There is nothing wrong with paying Leo and extending Lawrence, particularly while Thibs and Ojulari are on their rookie deals.
If the Giants did nothing at the Edge position from now until 2025, they would have Thibs and Ojaluri providing the pass rush for a combined $9.5M AAV for the next two seasons after this one.
Further, the Giants may find themselves with a new QB on a rookie deal until the 2027 season, perhaps 2028 if the 5th year option is in play.
If that's the case, there's no issue paying a highly disruptive DT tandem.