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Cosell on Jones and Barkley

ajr2456 : 12/8/2022 10:38 pm
The Barkley clip is underneath the first one. Whole podcast is good.
. - ( New Window )
cliffs pls?  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2022 10:43 pm : link
thank u in advance.
RE: cliffs pls?  
ajr2456 : 12/8/2022 10:51 pm : link
In comment 15938943 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
thank u in advance.


Says Jones is overly cautious and he’s not sure exactly why. Says he didn’t see it his rookie year. Says that every play has a route concept that has a relationship to the coverage and that Jones eyes at times aren’t in the right spot and he’s not seeing things sometimes. Leads him to believe he doesn’t have the processing speed required at times.

For Barkley he says that he’s an odd back because he’s so dynamic, big and strong but he’s not a sustaining back.
Both...  
Brown_Hornet : 12/8/2022 10:55 pm : link
...of those observations seem accurate.
I can see moving on from both  
kelly : 12/8/2022 11:00 pm : link
Barkley is an easy no for me. Backs don't get better with age.

Jones- depends on who there is to replace him with.

They both really need to step up big time these last few games. Time to cut Jones lose and let him sink or swim.
RE: RE: cliffs pls?  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2022 11:04 pm : link
In comment 15938949 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15938943 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


thank u in advance.



Says Jones is overly cautious and he’s not sure exactly why. Says he didn’t see it his rookie year. Says that every play has a route concept that has a relationship to the coverage and that Jones eyes at times aren’t in the right spot and he’s not seeing things sometimes. Leads him to believe he doesn’t have the processing speed required at times.

For Barkley he says that he’s an odd back because he’s so dynamic, big and strong but he’s not a sustaining back.


thank u - did he mention at all how that's impacted by scheme? it doesn't seem like there have been very many pure drop backs/scan the field the last few weeks. it has seemed like he's locked in on where the play is going pre play a lot.

barkley as a runner has always been more like a big chris johnson. non-sustaining is definitely fair. but like cj2k he usually has at least 1 lightning strike per game. the thing that's disappointed me this year is his performance and low volume in the passing game. that should be where his presence can be sustaining, and last week it did look like they tried to get him more involved.
Sy said he didn't see a quick mind in Jones, right?  
81_Great_Dane : 12/8/2022 11:05 pm : link
I wonder if there's a way to train a QB to think and process faster. IIRC the Eagles were training Donovan McNabb (I think it was McNabb) with shutter glasses to train him to make his decisions with less information. I've never heard of that method again so it must not have worked, or at least didn't catch on.
I’d have to go back to the full podcast  
ajr2456 : 12/8/2022 11:15 pm : link
But I don’t think so
RE: I can see moving on from both  
Breeze_94 : 12/8/2022 11:27 pm : link
In comment 15938955 kelly said:
Quote:
Barkley is an easy no for me. Backs don't get better with age.

Jones- depends on who there is to replace him with.

They both really need to step up big time these last few games. Time to cut Jones lose and let him sink or swim.


I get the argument on Barkley and committing to a RB. But he's also the teams identity on offense. I think the Giants are close enough to being a contender for it to make sense to keep the core intact -

A 4 year deal with Barkley would have him on the books for age 26, 27, 28 and 29 seasons. But with how NFL contracts are structures, I'm sure there will be an out ahead of year 3 or year 4. So in reality, you're paying Barkley for his age 26 and age 27 seasons.

Best case scenario, they get Barkley a capable backup in Round 3 or Round 4 who can take some of the load off of him (think what Pollard was to Zeke)

I knew Cosell would eventually come around  
Producer : 12/8/2022 11:33 pm : link
His praise of Jones earlier this season was too positive, imo.
RE: I knew Cosell would eventually come around  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2022 11:36 pm : link
In comment 15938998 Producer said:
Quote:
His praise of Jones earlier this season was too positive, imo.


he actually had a pretty good amount of positives about jones in the full podcast. basically said he's carrying the offense with his legs bc the offense is a lot of smoke and mirrors since receivers cant get open. starts at 27 min.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/eagle-eye-in-the-sky-podcast/id1012041038 - ( New Window )
had some good things to say about flott too  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2022 11:40 pm : link
hearing them talk about all the injuries is depressing.
RE: I knew Cosell would eventually come around  
BestFeature : 12/8/2022 11:52 pm : link
In comment 15938998 Producer said:
Quote:
His praise of Jones earlier this season was too positive, imo.


"Come around". Look at you celebrating Jones criticism. You're more of a fan of your opinion than the Giants.
RE: RE: I knew Cosell would eventually come around  
Producer : 12/9/2022 12:04 am : link
In comment 15939002 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15938998 Producer said:


Quote:


His praise of Jones earlier this season was too positive, imo.



he actually had a pretty good amount of positives about jones in the full podcast. basically said he's carrying the offense with his legs bc the offense is a lot of smoke and mirrors since receivers cant get open. starts at 27 min. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/eagle-eye-in-the-sky-podcast/id1012041038 - ( New Window )


The legs are big for Jones I agree. He has to be able to play like Fields I think to be successful. When he runs for 85 he has a chance to beat any good team.
RE: RE: I knew Cosell would eventually come around  
Producer : 12/9/2022 12:05 am : link
In comment 15939014 BestFeature said:
Quote:
In comment 15938998 Producer said:


Quote:


His praise of Jones earlier this season was too positive, imo.



"Come around". Look at you celebrating Jones criticism. You're more of a fan of your opinion than the Giants.


I'm not celebrating. I'm exhausted from watching predictably bad football.
RE: Sy said he didn't see a quick mind in Jones, right?  
rasbutant : 12/9/2022 12:09 am : link
In comment 15938961 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
I wonder if there's a way to train a QB to think and process faster. IIRC the Eagles were training Donovan McNabb (I think it was McNabb) with shutter glasses to train him to make his decisions with less information. I've never heard of that method again so it must not have worked, or at least didn't catch on.


Experience. And experience in the same system.
RE: RE: I can see moving on from both  
giantstock : 12/9/2022 12:32 am : link
In comment 15938997 Breeze_94 said:
Quote:
In comment 15938955 kelly said:


Quote:


Barkley is an easy no for me. Backs don't get better with age.

Jones- depends on who there is to replace him with.

They both really need to step up big time these last few games. Time to cut Jones lose and let him sink or swim.



I get the argument on Barkley and committing to a RB. But he's also the teams identity on offense. I think the Giants are close enough to being a contender for it to make sense to keep the core intact -




IMO they aren't. That's why I'd let go of both. The Defense is overrated. And the Offense needs too much. They won't be a contender next year and each year thereafter Barkley becomes much more of a risk.
RE: RE: Sy said he didn't see a quick mind in Jones, right?  
dancing blue bear : 12/9/2022 12:42 am : link
In comment 15939022 rasbutant said:
Quote:
In comment 15938961 81_Great_Dane said:


Quote:


I wonder if there's a way to train a QB to think and process faster. IIRC the Eagles were training Donovan McNabb (I think it was McNabb) with shutter glasses to train him to make his decisions with less information. I've never heard of that method again so it must not have worked, or at least didn't catch on.



Experience. And experience in the same system.


Exactly. Same as it ever was. It’s amazing how “processing” ability is correlated with protection.

As far as caution I think it’s partly a coaching point. This team cannot overcome mistakes. Essentially have to be perfect in the game plan to have a chance.
We really need a RB  
Mayo2JZ : 12/9/2022 5:44 am : link
like Ekeler of the Chargers. He can do it all. Especially on catching out of the backfield. SB certainly flashes at times and we all know that he is a threat to take it to the house but he doesn't seem to have the playmaker consistency of Ekeler
Jones'weakness since day one  
BigBlue7 : 12/9/2022 6:58 am : link
Is processing information post snap and acting on it

It's the one area he's improved very little on since his rookie year
RE: Jones'weakness since day one  
section125 : 12/9/2022 7:00 am : link
In comment 15939062 BigBlue7 said:
Quote:
Is processing information post snap and acting on it

It's the one area he's improved very little on since his rookie year


And yet, it is not always true..
RE: RE: I can see moving on from both  
mfjmfj : 12/9/2022 7:12 am : link
In comment 15938997 Breeze_94 said:
Quote:
In comment 15938955 kelly said:


Quote:


Barkley is an easy no for me. Backs don't get better with age.

Jones- depends on who there is to replace him with.

They both really need to step up big time these last few games. Time to cut Jones lose and let him sink or swim.



I get the argument on Barkley and committing to a RB. But he's also the teams identity on offense. I think the Giants are close enough to being a contender for it to make sense to keep the core intact -

A 4 year deal with Barkley would have him on the books for age 26, 27, 28 and 29 seasons. But with how NFL contracts are structures, I'm sure there will be an out ahead of year 3 or year 4. So in reality, you're paying Barkley for his age 26 and age 27 seasons.

Best case scenario, they get Barkley a capable backup in Round 3 or Round 4 who can take some of the load off of him (think what Pollard was to Zeke)


I don't get the argument on Barkley. He is the identity of the offense. The offense sucks. Less pay him lots of money. Huh? The Zeke example is on point. Pollard is a much better back who gets paid much less. Lets not way overpay a running back (a la zeke) and get a 3rd or 4th to replace him now. The drop off between what SB is right now and a random rookie is zero and maybe positive. The dropoff between a random rookie and what SB was earlier in the year is more but not worth the $$.
RE: RE: cliffs pls?  
Ron Johnson : 12/9/2022 7:28 am : link
In comment 15938949 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15938943 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


thank u in advance.



Says Jones is overly cautious and he’s not sure exactly why. Says he didn’t see it his rookie year. Says that every play has a route concept that has a relationship to the coverage and that Jones eyes at times aren’t in the right spot and he’s not seeing things sometimes. Leads him to believe he doesn’t have the processing speed required at times.

For Barkley he says that he’s an odd back because he’s so dynamic, big and strong but he’s not a sustaining back.


It’s because the margin for error with this team is razor thin. The Giants can’t win many games in which they lose the turnover battle.

This is obvious to even the casual observer. You have to doubt whether Cosell has enough proCessing speed to do this work.
Thanks  
Lines of Scrimmage : 12/9/2022 7:42 am : link
That was a really good way to describe SB.

Jones had a ton of turnovers year 1. Then Garrett reigned him in year 1. Year 2 in the offseason JG said on a podcast and I'm paraphrasing but pretty much he knows where the ball needs to go (translates he is processing correctly) then said, he just has to "let it rip".

Go to this springs practices and BD wants him "to let it rip". Here it is again. Not process better. Not make some better decisions. But again, "let it rip".

Then Cosell who I like a lot comes out with he is a "cautious player".

I'm pretty neutral on Jones and a lot of that is I don't like spending much money on QB's who are not enough of a QB that with the right team (reasonable) you can compete strongly in the playoffs. History of the league tell me this does not often go well beyond nice regular seasons and playoff exits.

JS/BD just have to be right whatever they do but I think Jones is probably better than some may think nut I also really like the concept of the QB on a rookie deal and how much easier it is to build a team.
Barkley should not be resigned  
JFIB : 12/9/2022 7:50 am : link
Look at his body of work over the past 5 seasons. Spectacular rookie season, just truly dynamic. It’s been dropping off steadily ever since. The injuries are taking their toll. He started out strong this season but the last three games have shown a return to his tentative style. I’ve seen enough of him turning his back before contact and falling down just as the defender gets close. I just done see it as a good investment for the future. I would try to resign DJ to a short term modest deal. I’d like to see him with a second year in the same system and an improved receiving corp and improved O-Line. If we can’t resign him that’s ok too. A bridge year from someone else while we build draft capital to take our guy. I like Anthony Richardson from Florida.
.  
ChrisRick : 12/9/2022 7:51 am : link
I very much respect Cosell, so I put appropriate weight into what Cosell says. I'll keep what he said about these two players in mind.
Let Saquon go gentle into that good night.  
NYGgolfer : 12/9/2022 8:45 am : link
Far more efficient to build a Running Back unit with several guys versus overly pay and rely on really just one guy. Especially when that guy wants a second contracts after an injured-filled first one.

Doesn't mean you still can't have a lead back that you feed the most. But attempt to create more of an overlap approach that provides snaps based on hot hand, skill/need in-game and of course who is dinged/injured.

Use Rds 3 thru Rds 5 to put a couple of guys under a 4-year contracts (not in same year), and Free Agency to put a couple of guys under 1-2 year contracts. No reason to ever concern or pin yourself into a large second contract because you aren't trying to create a bell-cow. If you find one however, then ride him for the short and medium term, and then market and trade him at the appropriate time and re-stock the RB unit (or another unit) with that value.

Excess supply drives the strategy, the depth chart is always fresh and dollars are properly valued within the position.

Build and develop an efficient, sustainable running game not a franchise running back.
RE: RE: RE: cliffs pls?  
ajr2456 : 12/9/2022 9:06 am : link
In comment 15939077 Ron Johnson said:
Quote:

This is obvious to even the casual observer. You have to doubt whether Cosell has enough proCessing speed to do this work.


So now Cosell is an idiot?
LoS...  
Brown_Hornet : 12/9/2022 9:17 am : link
...my opinions generally align with yours and this is no exception.

I've become neutral on both Barkley and Jones.

Let it rip is what Baker did last night.
RE: Sy said he didn't see a quick mind in Jones, right?  
Section331 : 12/9/2022 9:24 am : link
In comment 15938961 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
I wonder if there's a way to train a QB to think and process faster. IIRC the Eagles were training Donovan McNabb (I think it was McNabb) with shutter glasses to train him to make his decisions with less information. I've never heard of that method again so it must not have worked, or at least didn't catch on.


That’s interesting, I hadn’t heard that about McNabb, but I think processing speed is one of those things you either have or you don’t. While I’m sure someone can improve at the margins, I’m not sure training can bring about wholesale improvement.

As I’ve said before, playing QB in the NFL is a really hard job, which is why only about 10 people in the world are really good at it.
More QB's  
Lines of Scrimmage : 12/9/2022 10:02 am : link
will fail and imv it is not even close due to their inability to process, make a decision and execute a throw than they will for being short on tools. Yet without enough tools you don't stand much of a chance.

The longer they stay in the league they can improve on this but the bigger thing is experience knowing situations better that helps to speed it up. But more importantly the game slows down to them. Speed/windows is the big thing that impact young QB's.

The nature of the NFL is not very kind to having to being patient. Price tags impact this patience imv.

Likewise Brown Hornet.
I’ve been wondering about whether processing speed can be improved  
cosmicj : 12/9/2022 10:28 am : link
to a high level, too. There’s no doubt that a given young NFL QB gets faster at understanding the field with more experience. In fact. I remember a young Eli saying something about exactly that early in his career.

But can it improve from mediocre to a high quality level? Probably depends on the player.
It's hard to have a quick mind  
Since1965 : 12/9/2022 10:37 am : link
when defenders are constantly coming at you from every direction and you always need to be on the lookout for a cave in somewhere along the offense line.
1 key part of Cossell's comments being missed  
Eric on Li : 12/9/2022 10:43 am : link
was something to the effect of "they were winning in the first 2 months of the year because Jones was so effective on 3rd downs, which has cooled off the last few weeks during the losing streak".

I think that comment is a dead on assessment of the offense in general, and one we know has been impacted by not just jones but skill players dropping balls and the interior OL getting abused.

i think what many are glossing over is that jones was showing he can make plays to win games earlier in the year and that it's possible that happens again down the stretch. it did against washington if feliciano doesn't get penalized, slayton doesn't drop a ball, or the officials get the delay/offsides right before gano's kick.
"Making plays on 3rd down"  
Producer : 12/9/2022 10:47 am : link
is a classic statistical anomaly, usually based on small sample sizes, and not good analysis.

It's similar to clutch hitting stats in baseball. They're generally random events that don't tell you anything in reality, and subject to mean regression.
I think his observations are accurate.  
Andy in Halifax : 12/9/2022 10:48 am : link
I actually didn't feel that way against Washington, I thought play calling limited him way too much but there def have been games where I thought he's been overly cautious. Not every game, there's been a few where he's been more aggressive but not consistently.

Assessing him reading coverages and processing speed is really really hard for us to conclude on, we don't know his reads and such but I think that's a fair part of his game to say might be holding him back a bit.

He's accurate, has a strong arm. He's mobile and an extremely tough runner. But I think fair to wonder about his processing ability a bit. Might be unreliable receivers, or lacking trust in his receivers but it could also be a weakness.
Does anyone have  
Lines of Scrimmage : 12/9/2022 11:14 am : link
a breakdown of Jones performance by quarter against WFT or where this type of information can be found? I'd like to see this in looking at third downs.

What I be interested in knowing is what was the down/distance needed on 3rd down which is set by your first two downs.

I think the answer may be somewhere in this imv.
RE: I think his observations are accurate.  
Eric on Li : 12/9/2022 11:15 am : link
In comment 15939289 Andy in Halifax said:
Quote:
I actually didn't feel that way against Washington, I thought play calling limited him way too much but there def have been games where I thought he's been overly cautious. Not every game, there's been a few where he's been more aggressive but not consistently.

Assessing him reading coverages and processing speed is really really hard for us to conclude on, we don't know his reads and such but I think that's a fair part of his game to say might be holding him back a bit.

He's accurate, has a strong arm. He's mobile and an extremely tough runner. But I think fair to wonder about his processing ability a bit. Might be unreliable receivers, or lacking trust in his receivers but it could also be a weakness.


i think this is exactly right. the back 2 back slayton passes stood out as different in the sense that it was like they took the handcuffs and he immediately let 2 50/50 balls rip without much indecision.
RE: Does anyone have  
Producer : 12/9/2022 11:15 am : link
In comment 15939326 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
a breakdown of Jones performance by quarter against WFT or where this type of information can be found? I'd like to see this in looking at third downs.

What I be interested in knowing is what was the down/distance needed on 3rd down which is set by your first two downs.

I think the answer may be somewhere in this imv.


Again, obsessing over small sample sizes is a fool's errand.
RE: RE: Does anyone have  
Lines of Scrimmage : 12/9/2022 11:18 am : link
In comment 15939328 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15939326 Lines of Scrimmage said:


Quote:


a breakdown of Jones performance by quarter against WFT or where this type of information can be found? I'd like to see this in looking at third downs.

What I be interested in knowing is what was the down/distance needed on 3rd down which is set by your first two downs.

I think the answer may be somewhere in this imv.



Again, obsessing over small sample sizes is a fool's errand.


Not at all and unnecessary response that is not what I asked.
RE: I think his observations are accurate.  
Producer : 12/9/2022 11:19 am : link
In comment 15939289 Andy in Halifax said:
Quote:
I actually didn't feel that way against Washington, I thought play calling limited him way too much but there def have been games where I thought he's been overly cautious. Not every game, there's been a few where he's been more aggressive but not consistently.

Assessing him reading coverages and processing speed is really really hard for us to conclude on, we don't know his reads and such but I think that's a fair part of his game to say might be holding him back a bit.

He's accurate, has a strong arm. He's mobile and an extremely tough runner. But I think fair to wonder about his processing ability a bit. Might be unreliable receivers, or lacking trust in his receivers but it could also be a weakness.


But he doesn't have an especially strong arm, he is not actually accurate, as he often misses open receivers and throws to the wrong side, and he doesn't seem to take difficult chances with the vast majority of attempts being crossers over the middle and dump offs.

The coaching staff is telling you what they think of the QB by how they use him. It's almost all safe, high pct passes with little risk.
RE: Sy said he didn't see a quick mind in Jones, right?  
ZoneXDOA : 12/9/2022 11:35 am : link
In comment 15938961 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
I wonder if there's a way to train a QB to think and process faster. IIRC the Eagles were training Donovan McNabb (I think it was McNabb) with shutter glasses to train him to make his decisions with less information. I've never heard of that method again so it must not have worked, or at least didn't catch on.
I have a good idea: Get some consistent OL play and some receivers that he can trust will catch the ball. With Belly back, Hodgins playing well and Slayton doing a little better, I think we'll see some improvements in this area. Beginning of the season he seemed a little more confident and quick in his reads. He started to play it more safely as he repeatedly saw balls pass through or bounce off of his receivers hands.
Not sure if this merits it's own thread  
Scooter185 : 12/9/2022 11:39 am : link
So I'll drop it in this one, not attempting a hijack, but believe it's relevant

Ranaan: Do the Giant's trust Daniel Jones?
Do the Giants trust quarterback Daniel Jones? - ( New Window )
I blame Judge and Garrett for messing with his head.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/9/2022 11:42 am : link
I think seeing the field and reacting is an issue with him but Judge beat caution and no mistakes into him.
RE: RE: cliffs pls?  
Red Right Hand : 12/9/2022 11:59 am : link
In comment 15938949 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15938943 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


thank u in advance.



Says Jones is overly cautious and he’s not sure exactly why. Says he didn’t see it his rookie year. Says that every play has a route concept that has a relationship to the coverage and that Jones eyes at times aren’t in the right spot and he’s not seeing things sometimes. Leads him to believe he doesn’t have the processing speed required at times.

For Barkley he says that he’s an odd back because he’s so dynamic, big and strong but he’s not a sustaining back.

Everyone keeps saying it don't matter he's cockeyed.

If the cock-eyed man's eyes aren't in the right spot, then why do we insist on saying it doesn't matter he's cockeyed?
If you can VISUALLY SEE he's cock-eyed, clearly, and then say his problem is that " His eyes aren't in the right spot" which is there an INSISTANT disconnect between the two when they are clearly related through what we can see, and what logic dictates? why aren't we allowed to say the problem is that he is cock-eyed, especially when everyone insists it isn't his intelligence that's the problem.

Maybe his "processing problem" exists, but it isn't in his brain. Maybe he has bum sensors. it's not the chip, it's the camera.
Can't keep saying he doesn't see the field  
Red Right Hand : 12/9/2022 12:01 pm : link
and dismiss out of hand that he's cock-eyed cuz feels.
RE: RE: I think his observations are accurate.  
Now Mike in MD : 12/9/2022 12:05 pm : link
In comment 15939327 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15939289 Andy in Halifax said:


Quote:


I actually didn't feel that way against Washington, I thought play calling limited him way too much but there def have been games where I thought he's been overly cautious. Not every game, there's been a few where he's been more aggressive but not consistently.

Assessing him reading coverages and processing speed is really really hard for us to conclude on, we don't know his reads and such but I think that's a fair part of his game to say might be holding him back a bit.

He's accurate, has a strong arm. He's mobile and an extremely tough runner. But I think fair to wonder about his processing ability a bit. Might be unreliable receivers, or lacking trust in his receivers but it could also be a weakness.



i think this is exactly right. the back 2 back slayton passes stood out as different in the sense that it was like they took the handcuffs and he immediately let 2 50/50 balls rip without much indecision.


I agree re the second, not the first. I've watched a few breakdowns of that okay, and the opinion has generally been that Slayton was just a clear out, alter routed for the two inbreaking routes. This also likely explains why he slowed down his route. It wasn't until Jones recognized that the safety had misplayed things that Slayton was open and went with the alert route.

In other words, Slayton was not really an option on the route. He was a decoy. Similar to the long pass Jones hit him with a few weeks ago. I can't remember the exact game
research says that onset during childhood  
Red Right Hand : 12/9/2022 12:10 pm : link
leads to depth perception issues, and onset during adulthood leads to double vision issues. Either way, it puts a burden on the brain to compensate for sensory issues in "prception".

So a guy that has an issue that causes, in other people, an increased burden on processing due to perception issues is totally unaffected by it even though everyone and his fucking brother says he has a procession issue? And we can't mention it? Cuz it's rude? But it's ok to say he's retarded, but not cockeyed. Got it. But we can say " processing issues." Cool.
RE: RE: I think his observations are accurate.  
Now Mike in MD : 12/9/2022 12:12 pm : link
In comment 15939332 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15939289 Andy in Halifax said:


Quote:


I actually didn't feel that way against Washington, I thought play calling limited him way too much but there def have been games where I thought he's been overly cautious. Not every game, there's been a few where he's been more aggressive but not consistently.

Assessing him reading coverages and processing speed is really really hard for us to conclude on, we don't know his reads and such but I think that's a fair part of his game to say might be holding him back a bit.

He's accurate, has a strong arm. He's mobile and an extremely tough runner. But I think fair to wonder about his processing ability a bit. Might be unreliable receivers, or lacking trust in his receivers but it could also be a weakness.



But he doesn't have an especially strong arm, he is not actually accurate, as he often misses open receivers and throws to the wrong side, and he doesn't seem to take difficult chances with the vast majority of attempts being crossers over the middle and dump offs.

The coaching staff is telling you what they think of the QB by how they use him. It's almost all safe, high pct passes with little risk.


There's so much stupid in this post I don't know where to begin. First, his rm is plenty strong. You seem to act like if you don't have Herbert's arm, it's not strong. Stupid statement 1. Second, neithger you nor anyone else except for the coaches have any friggin clue whether the pass offense is being called this way because of Jones or because of the WRs. None. Zero. Nada. However, logically, it stands to reason that it is the fact that WR1 is a guy they were trying to dump and WR2 is a guy picked up off of waivers a few weeks ago, But you won't even acknowledge that possibility because you're so dug in. Fucking ponderous!
RE: RE: RE: I think his observations are accurate.  
Producer : 12/9/2022 12:18 pm : link
In comment 15939414 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15939332 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15939289 Andy in Halifax said:


Quote:


I actually didn't feel that way against Washington, I thought play calling limited him way too much but there def have been games where I thought he's been overly cautious. Not every game, there's been a few where he's been more aggressive but not consistently.

Assessing him reading coverages and processing speed is really really hard for us to conclude on, we don't know his reads and such but I think that's a fair part of his game to say might be holding him back a bit.

He's accurate, has a strong arm. He's mobile and an extremely tough runner. But I think fair to wonder about his processing ability a bit. Might be unreliable receivers, or lacking trust in his receivers but it could also be a weakness.



But he doesn't have an especially strong arm, he is not actually accurate, as he often misses open receivers and throws to the wrong side, and he doesn't seem to take difficult chances with the vast majority of attempts being crossers over the middle and dump offs.

The coaching staff is telling you what they think of the QB by how they use him. It's almost all safe, high pct passes with little risk.



There's so much stupid in this post I don't know where to begin. First, his rm is plenty strong. You seem to act like if you don't have Herbert's arm, it's not strong. Stupid statement 1. Second, neithger you nor anyone else except for the coaches have any friggin clue whether the pass offense is being called this way because of Jones or because of the WRs. None. Zero. Nada. However, logically, it stands to reason that it is the fact that WR1 is a guy they were trying to dump and WR2 is a guy picked up off of waivers a few weeks ago, But you won't even acknowledge that possibility because you're so dug in. Fucking ponderous!


Try watching football instead of insulting your fellow posters. You are losing your shit because you don't like reality, and taking it out on me. If there has ever been an offense schemed to be this conservative because of the WRs, instead of the QB, I'd like to know what it is, because in 50 years of watching the game, i can't remember a single one.

Another bug mouth, keyboard warrior, who thinks he can insult people anonymously on the internet. You're probably a timid clown irl.
Got it  
Spiciest Memelord : 12/9/2022 12:22 pm : link
throw it too David Sills faster. Watch out Philly!
RE: RE: I can see moving on from both  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/9/2022 12:22 pm : link
In comment 15938997 Breeze_94 said:
Quote:
In comment 15938955 kelly said:


Quote:


Barkley is an easy no for me. Backs don't get better with age.

Jones- depends on who there is to replace him with.

They both really need to step up big time these last few games. Time to cut Jones lose and let him sink or swim.



I get the argument on Barkley and committing to a RB. But he's also the teams identity on offense. I think the Giants are close enough to being a contender for it to make sense to keep the core intact -

A 4 year deal with Barkley would have him on the books for age 26, 27, 28 and 29 seasons. But with how NFL contracts are structures, I'm sure there will be an out ahead of year 3 or year 4. So in reality, you're paying Barkley for his age 26 and age 27 seasons.

Best case scenario, they get Barkley a capable backup in Round 3 or Round 4 who can take some of the load off of him (think what Pollard was to Zeke)

Your point is valid but it hinges on an assumption that the team's current offensive identity is aligned with their preferred offensive philosophy. That said, I think it's safe to assume that Daboll wants Barkley back next year (or else why would Schoen have been negotiating an extension with Barkley over the bye), but that doesn't necessarily mean that Daboll wants the current offensive identity to remain how it appears this year - at least not to the extent that he and Schoen are going to double down on the scheme (and current offensive core) we've seen the Giants deploy on offense this year.
I think he gets more cautious  
Lines of Scrimmage : 12/9/2022 12:29 pm : link
when the run game breaks down. This happened in Dallas, Detroit, Seahawks and then the second half of WFT. What is interesting is MK is choosing to run on a lot of 1st/2nd downs which really sets up the longer third down conversions. This is why I wanted to see the breakdowns by quarter and what they did on down 1/2 down in the WFT game between the 1st and second half.

The think that is surprising is they are not taking shots on 1st/2nd down. They are running a lot (despite getting stomped the 2nd half) and I am starting to suspect this is overall team strategy of not throwing incompletions when the game is close as if was against WFT.

To the article above regarding about BD's trust. I think its he trust Jones the most then a decent drop off to WR's/OL (especially IOL). This does not mean he does not want to move on either. Whatever one thinks about Jones I think just about everybody sees serious problems at WR/IOL.

What WR would you trust? BD had a pedestrian offense in Buff. his first two years. Adding Diggs (and they had some other guys) but Diggs production 127 1500 12.3. Who here?

RE: RE: cliffs pls?  
JonC : 12/9/2022 12:29 pm : link
In comment 15938949 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15938943 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


thank u in advance.



Says Jones is overly cautious and he’s not sure exactly why. Says he didn’t see it his rookie year. Says that every play has a route concept that has a relationship to the coverage and that Jones eyes at times aren’t in the right spot and he’s not seeing things sometimes. Leads him to believe he doesn’t have the processing speed required at times.


He has showed throughout his NFL tenure, he often simply misses the man schemed open. It's befuddling. I'd agree Judge/Garrett almost certainly didn't help, he feels/felt compelled to eliminate the mistakes by short cutting the read progressions, imv.
RE: RE: RE: Does anyone have  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/9/2022 12:32 pm : link
In comment 15939331 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
In comment 15939328 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15939326 Lines of Scrimmage said:


Quote:


a breakdown of Jones performance by quarter against WFT or where this type of information can be found? I'd like to see this in looking at third downs.

What I be interested in knowing is what was the down/distance needed on 3rd down which is set by your first two downs.

I think the answer may be somewhere in this imv.



Again, obsessing over small sample sizes is a fool's errand.



Not at all and unnecessary response that is not what I asked.

You can go ahead and get offended at a common saying like "fool's errand" but the reality is that you absolutely DO have sample size analysis issues and it has come up a lot lately.

You may find it interesting to review, very specifically, 3rd down plays, broken out by quarter, in one particular game, and it may indeed be interesting. But that's not nearly enough data to inform insights or decision-making, yet you continue to try to drill every discussion down to a level so granular that it removes all usefulness.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I think his observations are accurate.  
Now Mike in MD : 12/9/2022 12:38 pm : link
In comment 15939423 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15939414 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15939332 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15939289 Andy in Halifax said:


Quote:


I actually didn't feel that way against Washington, I thought play calling limited him way too much but there def have been games where I thought he's been overly cautious. Not every game, there's been a few where he's been more aggressive but not consistently.

Assessing him reading coverages and processing speed is really really hard for us to conclude on, we don't know his reads and such but I think that's a fair part of his game to say might be holding him back a bit.

He's accurate, has a strong arm. He's mobile and an extremely tough runner. But I think fair to wonder about his processing ability a bit. Might be unreliable receivers, or lacking trust in his receivers but it could also be a weakness.



But he doesn't have an especially strong arm, he is not actually accurate, as he often misses open receivers and throws to the wrong side, and he doesn't seem to take difficult chances with the vast majority of attempts being crossers over the middle and dump offs.

The coaching staff is telling you what they think of the QB by how they use him. It's almost all safe, high pct passes with little risk.



There's so much stupid in this post I don't know where to begin. First, his rm is plenty strong. You seem to act like if you don't have Herbert's arm, it's not strong. Stupid statement 1. Second, neithger you nor anyone else except for the coaches have any friggin clue whether the pass offense is being called this way because of Jones or because of the WRs. None. Zero. Nada. However, logically, it stands to reason that it is the fact that WR1 is a guy they were trying to dump and WR2 is a guy picked up off of waivers a few weeks ago, But you won't even acknowledge that possibility because you're so dug in. Fucking ponderous!



Try watching football instead of insulting your fellow posters. You are losing your shit because you don't like reality, and taking it out on me. If there has ever been an offense schemed to be this conservative because of the WRs, instead of the QB, I'd like to know what it is, because in 50 years of watching the game, i can't remember a single one.

Another bug mouth, keyboard warrior, who thinks he can insult people anonymously on the internet. You're probably a timid clown irl.


I'm not going to get into some keyboard tough guy battle with because it's almost as pointless as your opinions on DJ.

And I'm not losing my shit at all. Just emphasizing the inanity of you stating a point so assuredly when (a) you have no clue and (b) you're refusing to even consider another at least as likely possibility. It shows your bias
Getting receivers and an elite oline won’t improve the processing  
ajr2456 : 12/9/2022 12:51 pm : link
issues. If anything it will mask them.
Gatorade  
Lines of Scrimmage : 12/9/2022 12:53 pm : link
Why would I get offended by you. You already recognize I think you are stupid. You follow me around. Like you do with others.

Cosell and Sy  
Dave on the UWS : 12/9/2022 12:59 pm : link
See/saw the same thing in Jones. Now, most QBs get better AND quicker the longer they are in an offensive scheme. Jones has had so much change, it almost understandable that he’s slow and cautious. If you knew he would be better in year 2 of this system (next year) would you sign up for that? I guess it depends on the market and who is potentially available in the draft.
RE: Gatorade  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/9/2022 1:04 pm : link
In comment 15939470 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
Why would I get offended by you. You already recognize I think you are stupid. You follow me around. Like you do with others.

Yet, you continue to lead with your face, the frequency of which is no longer a small sample size.
RE: Cosell and Sy  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/9/2022 1:12 pm : link
In comment 15939479 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
See/saw the same thing in Jones. Now, most QBs get better AND quicker the longer they are in an offensive scheme. Jones has had so much change, it almost understandable that he’s slow and cautious. If you knew he would be better in year 2 of this system (next year) would you sign up for that? I guess it depends on the market and who is potentially available in the draft.

If you were the GM or HC of the team, and you were inclined to believe that a QB needs a second season in the same system in order to demonstrate enough progress to provide a fair evaluation, wouldn't you have picked up DJ's option in the offseason to give yourself cost certainty on that second year?

That tells me that JS/BD may not agree that two years is a necessary evaluation window. That doesn't mean that they won't bring DJ back next year, just that I think that they will approach it in a way that is consistent with how they view DJ this year, however that may be. I don't think they're going into this offseason still debating the same things internally that we debate on BBI. They know the answers that we don't. They know whether they can envision DJ in the offense that they want to have, rather than the offense that they're trotting out there right now.

We're the ones still guessing. JS/BD might (and probably are) still collecting/processing info with each week, but they already know the context of that info, and that's the part that we're missing - they're not.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I think his observations are accurate.  
Producer : 12/9/2022 1:22 pm : link
In comment 15939448 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15939423 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15939414 Now Mike in MD said:


Quote:


In comment 15939332 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15939289 Andy in Halifax said:


Quote:


I actually didn't feel that way against Washington, I thought play calling limited him way too much but there def have been games where I thought he's been overly cautious. Not every game, there's been a few where he's been more aggressive but not consistently.

Assessing him reading coverages and processing speed is really really hard for us to conclude on, we don't know his reads and such but I think that's a fair part of his game to say might be holding him back a bit.

He's accurate, has a strong arm. He's mobile and an extremely tough runner. But I think fair to wonder about his processing ability a bit. Might be unreliable receivers, or lacking trust in his receivers but it could also be a weakness.



But he doesn't have an especially strong arm, he is not actually accurate, as he often misses open receivers and throws to the wrong side, and he doesn't seem to take difficult chances with the vast majority of attempts being crossers over the middle and dump offs.

The coaching staff is telling you what they think of the QB by how they use him. It's almost all safe, high pct passes with little risk.



There's so much stupid in this post I don't know where to begin. First, his rm is plenty strong. You seem to act like if you don't have Herbert's arm, it's not strong. Stupid statement 1. Second, neithger you nor anyone else except for the coaches have any friggin clue whether the pass offense is being called this way because of Jones or because of the WRs. None. Zero. Nada. However, logically, it stands to reason that it is the fact that WR1 is a guy they were trying to dump and WR2 is a guy picked up off of waivers a few weeks ago, But you won't even acknowledge that possibility because you're so dug in. Fucking ponderous!



Try watching football instead of insulting your fellow posters. You are losing your shit because you don't like reality, and taking it out on me. If there has ever been an offense schemed to be this conservative because of the WRs, instead of the QB, I'd like to know what it is, because in 50 years of watching the game, i can't remember a single one.

Another bug mouth, keyboard warrior, who thinks he can insult people anonymously on the internet. You're probably a timid clown irl.



I'm not going to get into some keyboard tough guy battle with because it's almost as pointless as your opinions on DJ.

And I'm not losing my shit at all. Just emphasizing the inanity of you stating a point so assuredly when (a) you have no clue and (b) you're refusing to even consider another at least as likely possibility. It shows your bias


As to Jones' arm strength, there is nothing notable about it. He rarely attempts tough throws outside the hashes. His deep throws aren't bad, but they aren't special. Again, he rarely throws them and when he does they are rainbows. Not bad throws, just not notable. You are right he is not in Herbert's zip code in terms of arm talent. He is in a tier with a dozen other QBs with adequate, not special, arm strength.
RE: Cosell and Sy  
Spiciest Memelord : 12/9/2022 1:42 pm : link
In comment 15939479 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
See/saw the same thing in Jones. Now, most QBs get better AND quicker the longer they are in an offensive scheme. Jones has had so much change, it almost understandable that he’s slow and cautious. If you knew he would be better in year 2 of this system (next year) would you sign up for that? I guess it depends on the market and who is potentially available in the draft.


Plus you're undoing the horrible trauma Shumur/Judge/Garrett/Kitchens have done.
RE: RE: Gatorade  
Lines of Scrimmage : 12/9/2022 1:51 pm : link
In comment 15939484 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15939470 Lines of Scrimmage said:


Quote:


Why would I get offended by you. You already recognize I think you are stupid. You follow me around. Like you do with others.



Yet, you continue to lead with your face, the frequency of which is no longer a small sample size.


For you and a couple others perhaps. I don't rely on the statistical nature of things like you. I like it as a tool but for me in real time environments with constantly changing variables.....

I mean the same result keeps coming up (that I think you're stupid) and yet you keep coming back. Quite odd for such a data/statistical guy. Figured after a couple times you would have established the pattern.
Lines of Scrimmage and Gatorade Dunk  
gidiefor : Mod : 12/9/2022 1:58 pm : link
cut it out -- the back and forth between you has become tedious and unnecessary

You are both better than this -- we get it - you don't agree. stop pissing at each other
RE: RE: RE: RE: cliffs pls?  
Mike from Ohio : 12/9/2022 2:04 pm : link
In comment 15939146 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 15939077 Ron Johnson said:


Quote:



This is obvious to even the casual observer. You have to doubt whether Cosell has enough proCessing speed to do this work.



So now Cosell is an idiot?


Anyone who doesn't see an elite QB in Jones is going to be an idiot to many on this board. Their belief system can't be moved by additional facts or opinions from people like Cosell who has a very deep track record.

Maybe the criticism Sy (and many others) had of Jones back when he was drafted and Cosell has now has some meritt?

Nahhhh...they are all Jones haters and, by extension, Giants haters.
RE: Lines of Scrimmage and Gatorade Dunk  
Lines of Scrimmage : 12/9/2022 2:29 pm : link
In comment 15939537 gidiefor said:
Quote:
cut it out -- the back and forth between you has become tedious and unnecessary

You are both better than this -- we get it - you don't agree. stop pissing at each other


No problem. Apologies. I don't thing I'm the target here but you won't have any issue with me provided he does not follow me around with his arrogant and condescending tone.
RE: Lines of Scrimmage and Gatorade Dunk  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/9/2022 2:41 pm : link
In comment 15939537 gidiefor said:
Quote:
cut it out -- the back and forth between you has become tedious and unnecessary

You are both better than this -- we get it - you don't agree. stop pissing at each other

Apologies, gidie. Won't be an issue going forward.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: cliffs pls?  
Now Mike in MD : 12/9/2022 2:44 pm : link
In comment 15939544 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
In comment 15939146 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 15939077 Ron Johnson said:


Quote:



This is obvious to even the casual observer. You have to doubt whether Cosell has enough proCessing speed to do this work.



So now Cosell is an idiot?



Anyone who doesn't see an elite QB in Jones is going to be an idiot to many on this board. Their belief system can't be moved by additional facts or opinions from people like Cosell who has a very deep track record.

Maybe the criticism Sy (and many others) had of Jones back when he was drafted and Cosell has now has some meritt?

Nahhhh...they are all Jones haters and, by extension, Giants haters.


That's a complete misstatement. I think few, if any, DJ supporters see "elite," if by that term you mean top 5-7. However, I think most see tope 10-13 and a guy who you can win with.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: cliffs pls?  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/9/2022 3:17 pm : link
In comment 15939570 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 15939544 Mike from Ohio said:


Quote:

Anyone who doesn't see an elite QB in Jones is going to be an idiot to many on this board. Their belief system can't be moved by additional facts or opinions from people like Cosell who has a very deep track record.

Maybe the criticism Sy (and many others) had of Jones back when he was drafted and Cosell has now has some meritt?

Nahhhh...they are all Jones haters and, by extension, Giants haters.



That's a complete misstatement. I think few, if any, DJ supporters see "elite," if by that term you mean top 5-7. However, I think most see tope 10-13 and a guy who you can win with.

The problem is that the price for 10-13 is closer to the price for the top 5-7 than the supporting pieces you'd need to prop up the QB in that 10-13 range once you're paying him full price. For example, Kansas City can afford to slough their WR1 and Mahomes keeps them rolling along, whereas a QB in that next tier needs his team to go get that WR1 in order to make up the difference. If you need a $20M WR to make your $35M QB look decent, you might as well keep trying to find the $50M QB that doesn't need a $20M WR in the first place.

I think most fans can agree, and it's been pretty well documented at this point, that having a franchise QB on his rookie contract is the biggest advantage an NFL team can have in the salary cap era. The implication that often gets left unsaid (and I'm not sure is even realized by most) is that the inverse is also true: there is a disadvantage created by paying full veteran QB prices for production that can be roughly replicated by a new rookie contract at QB. The rookie comes with significant risk, of course, and it is that risk aversion inherent to NFL teams that causes them to pay enormous sums of money to sub-elite QBs.

It feels like the optimal strategy would be to keep cycling rookie QBs every four years (or faster) until you hit on a truly elite talent at QB, but that ignores the human element. No GM or HC is going to survive a constant revolving door at QB that will, almost by design, include some portion of QBs that will flat out stink. The GMs and HCs won't keep their jobs long enough to change the system, so they end up conforming, and that's how the middle tier of QBs ends up being paid the way they do (this also helps explain the massive polarization of the veteran QB market).

But GMs and HCs do generally get ONE get out of jail free card when it comes to the QB, and it tends to only exist early in their tenure. For Schoen and Daboll, they can hitch their wagons to DJ, or they get one free chance to start fresh at QB themselves. If they choose DJ, I'm not sure they get another chance to spend significant resources (whether by draft or FA) on a QB for a while, unless DJ somehow agrees to an obvious placeholder/bridge contract.

That's something that I think will play into Schoen and Daboll's thinking - signing DJ to a real franchise QB1 contract would almost be the same as drafting him themselves. From that point forward, I don't think they get to use the excuse that DJ was DG's guy. Once Schoen gives him a new contract, DJ becomes their guy, too. They might never get to pick one for themselves. It's hard to guess whether that matters to them, and if so, how much.
This is Schoen and Daboll's first bite at the apple  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/9/2022 4:27 pm : link
You would be banking on an offensive-minded head coach/QB specialist making the assessment. Whatever he decides is fine by me but the factors there are not going to be based in 2022 w/l results or counting stats. It will be about what Jones can be moving forward and if that is fitting Daboll's vision.

Daboll isn't going to stake his career on a QB he is lukewarm on 'just because' and neither is Schoen. They're not here to win 7-9 games a year. They are here to rebuild it right.

RE: I blame Judge and Garrett for messing with his head.  
Thunderstruck27 : 12/9/2022 4:27 pm : link
In comment 15939373 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
I think seeing the field and reacting is an issue with him but Judge beat caution and no mistakes into him.


Mac Jones agrees
RE: Thanks  
k2tampa : 12/9/2022 5:13 pm : link
In comment 15939079 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
That was a really good way to describe SB.

Jones had a ton of turnovers year 1. Then Garrett reigned him in year 1. Year 2 in the offseason JG said on a podcast and I'm paraphrasing but pretty much he knows where the ball needs to go (translates he is processing correctly) then said, he just has to "let it rip".

Go to this springs practices and BD wants him "to let it rip". Here it is again. Not process better. Not make some better decisions. But again, "let it rip".

Then Cosell who I like a lot comes out with he is a "cautious player".

I'm pretty neutral on Jones and a lot of that is I don't like spending much money on QB's who are not enough of a QB that with the right team (reasonable) you can compete strongly in the playoffs. History of the league tell me this does not often go well beyond nice regular seasons and playoff exits.

JS/BD just have to be right whatever they do but I think Jones is probably better than some may think nut I also really like the concept of the QB on a rookie deal and how much easier it is to build a team.


Jones INT numbers were not bad in year one, 12 to 24 TDs, especially for a rookie. His turnover problem as a rookie was fumbles, not INTs.
RE: RE: Thanks  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/9/2022 8:08 pm : link
In comment 15939695 k2tampa said:
Quote:
In comment 15939079 Lines of Scrimmage said:


Quote:


That was a really good way to describe SB.

Jones had a ton of turnovers year 1. Then Garrett reigned him in year 1. Year 2 in the offseason JG said on a podcast and I'm paraphrasing but pretty much he knows where the ball needs to go (translates he is processing correctly) then said, he just has to "let it rip".

Go to this springs practices and BD wants him "to let it rip". Here it is again. Not process better. Not make some better decisions. But again, "let it rip".

Then Cosell who I like a lot comes out with he is a "cautious player".

I'm pretty neutral on Jones and a lot of that is I don't like spending much money on QB's who are not enough of a QB that with the right team (reasonable) you can compete strongly in the playoffs. History of the league tell me this does not often go well beyond nice regular seasons and playoff exits.

JS/BD just have to be right whatever they do but I think Jones is probably better than some may think nut I also really like the concept of the QB on a rookie deal and how much easier it is to build a team.



Jones INT numbers were not bad in year one, 12 to 24 TDs, especially for a rookie. His turnover problem as a rookie was fumbles, not INTs.

This post actually reminded me of something that I was thinking about earlier today: we have spent years debating the various points of DJ's career, like the fumbling gunslinger of his rookie year, or the timid game manager of the Judge years, or the ground attack point guard under Daboll, etc. We argue over the impact of the OL or receivers or the running game or the scheme, etc.

What if rookie-year DJ's production (both good and bad) was influenced by having Eli's wisdom in his ear, in real time? And what if the more conservative version of DJ is his own natural state without Eli's influence?

This isn't wildly different, IMO (in theory, at least), from the way that McAdoo called the offense as OC when he had Coughlin to provide guidance vs. his playcalling as HC.

What if it isn't about the surrounding cast or the coaching? What if it's about DJ being inherently gunshy unless he has the confidence by proxy of someone like Eli?

Probably a crazy theory.
RE: RE: RE: Thanks  
GMen72 : 12/9/2022 8:41 pm : link
In comment 15939829 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15939695 k2tampa said:


Quote:


In comment 15939079 Lines of Scrimmage said:


Quote:


That was a really good way to describe SB.

Jones had a ton of turnovers year 1. Then Garrett reigned him in year 1. Year 2 in the offseason JG said on a podcast and I'm paraphrasing but pretty much he knows where the ball needs to go (translates he is processing correctly) then said, he just has to "let it rip".

Go to this springs practices and BD wants him "to let it rip". Here it is again. Not process better. Not make some better decisions. But again, "let it rip".

Then Cosell who I like a lot comes out with he is a "cautious player".

I'm pretty neutral on Jones and a lot of that is I don't like spending much money on QB's who are not enough of a QB that with the right team (reasonable) you can compete strongly in the playoffs. History of the league tell me this does not often go well beyond nice regular seasons and playoff exits.

JS/BD just have to be right whatever they do but I think Jones is probably better than some may think nut I also really like the concept of the QB on a rookie deal and how much easier it is to build a team.



Jones INT numbers were not bad in year one, 12 to 24 TDs, especially for a rookie. His turnover problem as a rookie was fumbles, not INTs.


This post actually reminded me of something that I was thinking about earlier today: we have spent years debating the various points of DJ's career, like the fumbling gunslinger of his rookie year, or the timid game manager of the Judge years, or the ground attack point guard under Daboll, etc. We argue over the impact of the OL or receivers or the running game or the scheme, etc.

What if rookie-year DJ's production (both good and bad) was influenced by having Eli's wisdom in his ear, in real time? And what if the more conservative version of DJ is his own natural state without Eli's influence?

This isn't wildly different, IMO (in theory, at least), from the way that McAdoo called the offense as OC when he had Coughlin to provide guidance vs. his playcalling as HC.

What if it isn't about the surrounding cast or the coaching? What if it's about DJ being inherently gunshy unless he has the confidence by proxy of someone like Eli?

Probably a crazy theory.


So, he forgot everything Eli said the minute he walked out the door?

I think it's much more likely Daboll and Judge both believe DJ has to be reigned in to avoid turnovers. If DJ had built on his rookie season, instead of completely regressing, there wouldn't be a discussion.
GD  
cosmicj : 12/9/2022 8:56 pm : link
A different explanation. Case Keenum had his highest YPA and number of TDs in his career in 2017. Playing for Shurmur.

The previous season, Sam Bradford had his highest YPA ever and his TD/INT ratio was easily the best of his career. Again Shurmur.

In 2014, with Shurmur as the Eagles OC, Mark Sanchez had his highest YPA in his career (although he turned the ball over A LOT).

The prior season, Nick Foles looked like an emerging star working with Shurmur. Foles may have won the Super Bowl later on but apart from that, everything has been downhill since then for Nick.

I think Shurmur is an exceptional offensive mind. It’s remarkable that he’s unemployed (maybe taking the year off on his own impetus?). He’s repeatedly got very strong performance out of QBs with limited gifts.

The other humorous thing is that DG was absolutely right to want to hire Shurmur in 2018. But they interviewed him for the wrong position. It should have been for the OC job.

That’s a common explanation for Jones in 2019. Not a new insight but probably true. The number of peak performances Shurmur has elicited out of a series of QBs from Sam Bradford on down is remarkable. I think Daboll should bring him on to the staff next season.

Virtual Reality training  
MeanBunny : 12/10/2022 4:08 pm : link
Maybe gaming could help, ideally VR
RE: GD  
Andy in Halifax : 12/13/2022 10:16 am : link
In comment 15939871 cosmicj said:
Quote:
A different explanation. Case Keenum had his highest YPA and number of TDs in his career in 2017. Playing for Shurmur.

The previous season, Sam Bradford had his highest YPA ever and his TD/INT ratio was easily the best of his career. Again Shurmur.

In 2014, with Shurmur as the Eagles OC, Mark Sanchez had his highest YPA in his career (although he turned the ball over A LOT).

The prior season, Nick Foles looked like an emerging star working with Shurmur. Foles may have won the Super Bowl later on but apart from that, everything has been downhill since then for Nick.

I think Shurmur is an exceptional offensive mind. It’s remarkable that he’s unemployed (maybe taking the year off on his own impetus?). He’s repeatedly got very strong performance out of QBs with limited gifts.

The other humorous thing is that DG was absolutely right to want to hire Shurmur in 2018. But they interviewed him for the wrong position. It should have been for the OC job.

That’s a common explanation for Jones in 2019. Not a new insight but probably true. The number of peak performances Shurmur has elicited out of a series of QBs from Sam Bradford on down is remarkable. I think Daboll should bring him on to the staff next season.
I have no idea what the happened to him in Denver but it appears to have done significant damage to his professional reputation. I mean... the results were an abomination but I can't imagine he didn't have enough goodwill from all the other jobs he's done to get another job quickly as an OC.
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