contract extension.
Boomer opened his show at 6AM sharing that as he understands it the Giants and Daniel Jones are close to an agreement, just determining if it will be a 3 or 4 year deal.
There is no link as this was on the WFAN morning show.
Normally I’d question how plugged in he is to all things Giants, BUT this would be an odd thing to stick his neck out over. He’s been at FAN and on CBS for nearly 20 years, he’s bound to have some inside contacts.
Doesn't it count against the 2022 cap or is that over and it goes towards 2023?
The 2022 season is over, why would a new contract be applied to it? Any postseason payments are determined by the NFL, they aren’t contractual (other than playoff bonuses).
Doesn't it count against the 2022 cap or is that over and it goes towards 2023?
The 2022 season is over, why would a new contract be applied to it? Any postseason payments are determined by the NFL, they aren’t contractual (other than playoff bonuses).
I thought the season actually ends the day after the Superbowl?
When you go to over the cap it brings you right to the 2023 page.
and his job on the radio in NY, he's pretty plugged in. Not the type of guy to make stuff up for attention either. At a minimum, I think this is an indication that they are talking long term contract.
RE: I’m sure contract negotiations are tabled until after the playoffs
they tend to develop. I don't have facts to back that up, but he doesn't make rumors up to gain attention. Like KMed said, if he's heard this, at minimum the Giants and DJ's camp are talking extension.
which will allow them to get out after 3 with some dead cap. If it’s a 3 year deal, they can’t do much to lower the cap burden if they want to build a strong team that can compete.
He’ll get at LEAST 35 mill, imo. That’s the MINIMUM in today’s
This seems fair given the current pay rate for QB’s. If I were Jones I would maybe want go gamble a bit on myself and see what this playoff run looks like before signing anything. If he plays well and they make some improbable SB run he would be in line for a bigger deal.
RE: $35 m is the 10th highest average salary for qb's. The 5th highest is
They are always escalating. I think it will be between 35 and 40...unless they load it up with escalators. Term is relatively irrelevant. I imagine it will be a 4 year deal that the Giants can get out of after 3.
RE: RE: I’m sure contract negotiations are tabled until after the playoffs
It would be awesome to see them agree on a 3 or 4 year deal averaging about $35 million per year.
.
I don't see 35 mill. a year for Jones. He's not a top 5 QB.
I know salaries have gone through the roof with QB's, but still...
That’s how it goes though. The next guy will get even more. As long as the cap keeps rising and the league continues to push the passing game QB salaries will get higher and higher. I mean look at Kyler Murray, do you think he’s worth what he just got? Wait until Hurts’ contract is up. He’s nothing special, but I’m sure he’ll get $40 per.
it figures to be at least above the non-exclusive tag, so $35M AAV is starting to look logical from a market and buying out a few years of his UFA perspective.
they work out a fair number(30M per with an exit strategy) and then FT Barkley. More than the AAV though, the cap number is the key with the gtd money.
Having Jones long term was the best possible outcome. A 4 year deal would be best for the team as it will be a bargain by years 3 and 4. Jones probably wants 3 so he can get another deal sooner. Maybe 4/145/150 gets the longer term done. Still a very good price.
We wouldn't have to waste a first or second rounder on a potential QB of the future and can use it to upgrade our WR, ILB or CB corps.
It might have cost us multiple high picks to trade up. Expecting to get a franchise QB near the bottom of the first and later, would be a major gamble. Yeah, it can happen, but the odds of failure are much higher than the odds of success.
which will allow them to get out after 3 with some dead cap. If it’s a 3 year deal, they can’t do much to lower the cap burden if they want to build a strong team that can compete.
Sure they can. The CBA allows bonuses to be amortized on a 5-year schedule. If the Giants sign Jones to a 3-year deal, and they need cap relief they will add 1 or 2 void years. If years 4 & 5 of the agreement are just a place to park guarantees, there's no difference.
The reason the Giants should push for a longer agreement is to actually have the right to keep Jones for longer if he's playing well.
RE: RE: RE: I would buy more into it if it was from Simms..
which will allow them to get out after 3 with some dead cap. If it’s a 3 year deal, they can’t do much to lower the cap burden if they want to build a strong team that can compete.
Sure they can. The CBA allows bonuses to be amortized on a 5-year schedule. If the Giants sign Jones to a 3-year deal, and they need cap relief they will add 1 or 2 void years. If years 4 & 5 of the agreement are just a place to park guarantees, there's no difference.
The reason the Giants should push for a longer agreement is to actually have the right to keep Jones for longer if he's playing well.
It he get 3 years and turns out to be the real deal, he's gonna make a bundle at age 28 with his next deal. Maybe the Giants can stretch to 5 years with voidable years, or at least a cheap out.
RE: I would buy more into it if it was from Simms..
it figures to be at least above the non-exclusive tag, so $35M AAV is starting to look logical from a market and buying out a few years of his UFA perspective.
Exactly. Otherwise, Team Jones shouldn't be engaged in any talks. I have a feeling it's going be 3yrs/$120M, at least $80M guaranteed.
I still say - assuming this plays out as reported by Esiason - the wisest move is the FT and make Jones prove this year wasn't an outlier.
RE: RE: RE: I would buy more into it if it was from Simms..
Doesn't it count against the 2022 cap or is that over and it goes towards 2023?
The 2022 season is over, why would a new contract be applied to it? Any postseason payments are determined by the NFL, they aren’t contractual (other than playoff bonuses).
I thought the season actually ends the day after the Superbowl?
When you go to over the cap it brings you right to the 2023 page.
The league year concludes after the Super Bowl, but player contracts are prorated across the regular season only (except for expressly stated playoff bonus incentives, which would have been categorized as NLTBE for any Giants contracts in 2022 anyway). So for contract extension purposes, 2022 is over. For contract expiration purposes, 2022 ends with the conclusion of the league year after the Super Bowl.
The league year ends and starts on March 15. I don't think it matters when a deal is reached, rather it matters when it's signed. A contract doesn't take effect until it is signed. On the other hand, it might be possible that signing it now might be beneficial to the team down the road if some of the bonus money were counted against 2022.
As someone who covered the Bengals part time when Esiason was drafted, he was fun to work with. But you kind of got the feeling he might be someone that would end up with an oversized ego. Never got that sense with Collinsworth. He was always fun and self-deprecating. Just a guy who enjoyed what he was doing.
which will allow them to get out after 3 with some dead cap. If it’s a 3 year deal, they can’t do much to lower the cap burden if they want to build a strong team that can compete.
Sure they can. The CBA allows bonuses to be amortized on a 5-year schedule. If the Giants sign Jones to a 3-year deal, and they need cap relief they will add 1 or 2 void years. If years 4 & 5 of the agreement are just a place to park guarantees, there's no difference.
The reason the Giants should push for a longer agreement is to actually have the right to keep Jones for longer if he's playing well.
As GY used to say, “when they tell you it’s not about the money, it’s about the money.” If there are EXCEPTIONS and there are occasionally, DJ would be one of them, imo
RE: RE: I’m sure contract negotiations are tabled until after the playoffs
We wouldn't have to waste a first or second rounder on a potential QB of the future and can use it to upgrade our WR, ILB or CB corps.
It might have cost us multiple high picks to trade up. Expecting to get a franchise QB near the bottom of the first and later, would be a major gamble. Yeah, it can happen, but the odds of failure are much higher than the odds of success.
It is a big gamble at every point in the draft, even the 1st overall. It just gets bigger the further down you get. Hitting on a QB with a top 5 pick probably starts at 1 in 4 and gets worse from there.
Or are you already backing off that prediction like you did your 4y/$100M contract that DJ was going to accept because he's a swell guy who loves being your favorite player?
RE: RE: RE: I would buy more into it if it was from Simms..
Doesn't it count against the 2022 cap or is that over and it goes towards 2023?
The 2022 season is over, why would a new contract be applied to it? Any postseason payments are determined by the NFL, they aren’t contractual (other than playoff bonuses).
I thought the season actually ends the day after the Superbowl?
When you go to over the cap it brings you right to the 2023 page.
It would be an extension meaning this year stays as is so it wouldn’t start till next season
RE: RE: RE: I’m sure contract negotiations are tabled until after the playoffs
It would be awesome to see them agree on a 3 or 4 year deal averaging about $35 million per year.
.
I don't see 35 mill. a year for Jones. He's not a top 5 QB.
I know salaries have gone through the roof with QB's, but still...
That’s how it goes though. The next guy will get even more. As long as the cap keeps rising and the league continues to push the passing game QB salaries will get higher and higher. I mean look at Kyler Murray, do you think he’s worth what he just got? Wait until Hurts’ contract is up. He’s nothing special, but I’m sure he’ll get $40 per.
Hurts isn't getting less than Murray. Hurts will be in the $50M tier (or very close to it) simply as a function of timing (his contract will be signed after Murray's) and production (his numbers are better than Murray's).
It feels like some are lagging on the QB market. $40M isn't even a top-tier benchmark anymore. That would represent a cut below the top QB group right now, and the market is going to keep inflating, at least at the top end.
And enough in guarantees for him not to just play the tag game. Regardless of whether or not his true value is 25-30 AAV or whatever, it would have to make sense for him not to test an open market, even if he were motivated to be here.
I don't think it's complicated, a cap-inflated version of whatever Goff and Wentz signed recently. I would be surpised if he got or held out for something in the Kyler territory.
Can’t be signed until the new league year. But that does not mean those contracts can’t be negotiated and agreed to prior to the new year. If this report is true, that will give the Giants a ton of flexibility going into free agency in dealing with Saquon and some of the other contracts that will need to be negotiated.
Jones is likely to sign some sort of contract with the Giants, even if it’s just the tag. He’s going to be able to say he’s right, and if it is the tag he’ll just say “we’ll guess they couldn’t agree on the years”.
RE: I don't know how accurate he is, but as he works at CBS and WFAN
With $60 million guaranteed and a voidable 3rd year if Jones regresses
I would be shocked if Team Jones signs that. That would be a very magnanimous gesture by them.
That’s just my best guess at what Schoen is thinking. Maybe 3 years, 100M with 70 million guaranteed tops from the front office. Jones’ team probably wants more years
which will allow them to get out after 3 with some dead cap. If it’s a 3 year deal, they can’t do much to lower the cap burden if they want to build a strong team that can compete.
Sure they can. The CBA allows bonuses to be amortized on a 5-year schedule. If the Giants sign Jones to a 3-year deal, and they need cap relief they will add 1 or 2 void years. If years 4 & 5 of the agreement are just a place to park guarantees, there's no difference.
The reason the Giants should push for a longer agreement is to actually have the right to keep Jones for longer if he's playing well.
It he get 3 years and turns out to be the real deal, he's gonna make a bundle at age 28 with his next deal. Maybe the Giants can stretch to 5 years with voidable years, or at least a cheap out.
If he signs a 4 or 5 year deal and plays well the next two, he’s not playing on a discount years 3-5. The deal will be redone.
but agree with those that said Boomer wouldn't just throw things out there.
This could have been done by the Giants and a possible motive is there is a disagreement on some aspects of a longer deal. Then a tag comes after the season.
With $60 million guaranteed and a voidable 3rd year if Jones regresses
I would be shocked if Team Jones signs that. That would be a very magnanimous gesture by them.
I agree. A lot of middling QBs out there making more than that. Why would Jones give the Giants some kind of deep discount or very team friendly terms?
I'm sure Jones sees value in sticking as he's finally with a coaching staff that has a clue. But after the stupid money recently thrown at Deshaun Watson, Kyler Murray and Russell Wilson, (not to mention Carr, Stafford, Cousins, Goff, Wentz, Ryan and Tannehill making more that $30K per year avg), no way his agent lets him agree to a big discount
IF they truly want him for the medium term, 35 mil/yr is going to be the bottom end of the 'reasonable deal' spectrum.
The sooner Giants know whether they can re-sign DJ, the sooner they can plan the offseason, including the tampering all teams do investigating potential vet replacement.
With $60 million guaranteed and a voidable 3rd year if Jones regresses
I would be shocked if Team Jones signs that. That would be a very magnanimous gesture by them.
I agree. A lot of middling QBs out there making more than that. Why would Jones give the Giants some kind of deep discount or very team friendly terms?
I'm sure Jones sees value in sticking as he's finally with a coaching staff that has a clue. But after the stupid money recently thrown at Deshaun Watson, Kyler Murray and Russell Wilson, (not to mention Carr, Stafford, Cousins, Goff, Wentz, Ryan and Tannehill making more that $30K per year avg), no way his agent lets him agree to a big discount
I'm not sure this is a good case for signing Jones. You name a plethora of QB's, some of which are better than Jones and deserve to be paid more:
Watson, Stafford, Cousins, Goff and possibly Tannehill.
You also mentioned older QB's that have a big history in the NFL and are well into their careers:
Wilson, Carr, Matt Ryan.
Then you mention QB's that are way overpaid and holding back their teams:
Wentz and Murray
People are getting a little out of hand about Jones. I get that he's improving and has room to grow and that is certainly worth something, but he's still a risk to sign at big money. Pretending like he's owed more than everyone on this list or even near the top is dangerous, IMO.
I'm not sure this is a good case for signing Jones. You name a plethora of QB's, some of which are better than Jones and deserve to be paid more:
Watson, Stafford, Cousins, Goff and possibly Tannehill.
Oh FFS - Tannehill is not better than Jones.
To be fair, I said possibly Tannehill, but it's definitely worthy of a discussion. Lotta projecting with Jones, whereas tannehill has a history. In 2020 Tannehill accounted for 40 TD's. In comparison, Jones accounted for 22 this year.
That 30m range is narrow. If you want to use the Kirk Comp, as many do, it is an interesting test case because no one has ever loved Cousins enough to get him on a long term deal. He has signed contracts no longer than 3 years despite being very stat friendly and making the playoffs regularly.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: My guess is 3 years, 90 million
I'm not sure this is a good case for signing Jones. You name a plethora of QB's, some of which are better than Jones and deserve to be paid more:
Watson, Stafford, Cousins, Goff and possibly Tannehill.
Oh FFS - Tannehill is not better than Jones.
Tannehill is not better than Jones, at Jones' best. Tannehill has been more consistently good than Jones, though. Tannehill has a lot more on his résumé than Jones.
Tannehill is actually a really good comp for Jones. You can hope Jones is better, but the most I could say right now is he's shown he can be AS GOOD AS Tannehill, if he can build on his recent successes and be consistent.
RE: Same chart, this time sorted by Average Salary
Did a victory lap because he looked good beating the Colts. The Colts.
Paying him like a top 10 QB is very risky.
Was alot more than the Colts game, idiot.
Oh yeah? What else? Was it the whopping 15 TD passes in 16 games? Is it his 3200 yards passing (15th)? I mean, he's so elite, I know... I'm just an idiot here, expecting elite production from our elite player.
Because Murray and Watson make $46M AAV each and he has looked better than both of them.
$50M is only a trophy AAV one time, and then it becomes a benchmark. Rodgers bagged the $50M trophy, and now the next set of franchise QBs to get paid (Herbert, Burrow, Hurts, Jackson... DJ in 2024 if tagged for 2023?) are all likely to land at or near the $50M level.
You can make a case for Hurts to be beneath that tier (just like one could note reasons for reservation with DJ's upcoming price), but I really think Murray's contract is going to be a troublesome comp for GMs across the league to contend with. I would be surprised if Jim Denton isn't using Murray's contract to DJ's advantage while negotiating with Schoen; why wouldn't Hurts's agent do the same with Roseman (and Hurts shares the same style of play as Murray, but is arguably better at it)?
Three years for 120 million or Four years for 150 million (more incentive for Jones to take the longer contract). Especially if Jones wins a playoff game.
The QB market is what it is. You're not going to get Jones for cheap, too many teams would love to get him at $40 million (Washington, for example). I'm sure Schoen will set up the contract so we can sign other players as well.
Look at the overall QB market. You have a LOT of teams that are desperate for a competent QB, and a lot of QB's that are over paid. People on BBI may not like Jones, but GM's who need to keep their jobs are going to over pay for talent at that position.
RE: RE: Same chart, this time sorted by Average Salary
Who is better (RIght now) on that list other than Josh Allen? Who? After Josh I don’t see anyone that is significantly better.
So what kind of contract terms would you offer DJ this offseason, Carl? I'm not sure you've ever answered that question. It should be simple enough, since you've never had a doubt about DJ from the very start.
It's easy to wave the pom-poms until the rubber meets the road. What's the contract you'd offer?
then FT him and hope one of those desperate teams trade for him. Daniel Jones is NOT a 40M per player...yet. Will he ever be? I hope so, he's finally shown signs, but he isn't that guy yet.
4 years/120 million with 90 million gtd. If not, FT him.
The majority of the people that like Jones have defended him to death. The majority of those that didn't like him have been blaming him for everything and have wanted him off the team forever. Now that Jones has shown some signs(that's all it is, he hasn't proven a damn thing), the Jones fans that have defended him are going a bit too far.
The majority of the people that like Jones have defended him to death. The majority of those that didn't like him have been blaming him for everything and have wanted him off the team forever. Now that Jones has shown some signs(that's all it is, he hasn't proven a damn thing), the Jones fans that have defended him are going a bit too far.
but the Giants have signed some of their own, prior to playoff games, before. This from January 2008...
Quote:
A breakout 2007 campaign for New York Giants backup defensive end Justin Tuck will on Friday become a break-the-bank season for the three-year veteran.
Tuck and the Giants reached agreement Thursday on a five-year contract extension that runs through the 2013 season, has a maximum value of $30 million, and includes $16 million in bonuses. Barring any last-minute glitches, the final details of the deal will be completed on Friday and the contract will be officially executed.
With $60 million guaranteed and a voidable 3rd year if Jones regresses
I would be shocked if Team Jones signs that. That would be a very magnanimous gesture by them.
I agree. A lot of middling QBs out there making more than that. Why would Jones give the Giants some kind of deep discount or very team friendly terms?
I'm sure Jones sees value in sticking as he's finally with a coaching staff that has a clue. But after the stupid money recently thrown at Deshaun Watson, Kyler Murray and Russell Wilson, (not to mention Carr, Stafford, Cousins, Goff, Wentz, Ryan and Tannehill making more that $30K per year avg), no way his agent lets him agree to a big discount
I'm not sure this is a good case for signing Jones. You name a plethora of QB's, some of which are better than Jones and deserve to be paid more:
Watson, Stafford, Cousins, Goff and possibly Tannehill.
You also mentioned older QB's that have a big history in the NFL and are well into their careers:
Wilson, Carr, Matt Ryan.
Then you mention QB's that are way overpaid and holding back their teams:
Wentz and Murray
People are getting a little out of hand about Jones. I get that he's improving and has room to grow and that is certainly worth something, but he's still a risk to sign at big money. Pretending like he's owed more than everyone on this list or even near the top is dangerous, IMO.
I'm not arguing a case for how much we want to pay him or that he deserves more than those guys, I'm making the point we're not likely to get him for much less than a lot of those guys. That's the market for QBs these days.
You're paying for projections here. At least I hope so. I would hope nobody is paying $40M per year for 22 total TD's from the QB position. You are projecting DJ to continue to grow. You are projecting that his numbers will get significantly better with competent receivers. All DJ has proven is that he has the ability to progress...finally.
Because this team has some large holes to fill and big players to re-sign. How do you get better, which they *must*, if you spend all your money on QB, Dexter Lawrence, eventually Andrew Thomas, and whoever they get to play CB and WR. They will be getting someone.
35m is not unheard of money for a QB, I would be more concerned with # of years. It's not justifiable to hand out a long term deal at this point. It IS justifiable to reward him though.
RE: RE: RE: This is a huge Win Win for us and the Giants
We wouldn't have to waste a first or second rounder on a potential QB of the future and can use it to upgrade our WR, ILB or CB corps.
It might have cost us multiple high picks to trade up. Expecting to get a franchise QB near the bottom of the first and later, would be a major gamble. Yeah, it can happen, but the odds of failure are much higher than the odds of success.
It is a big gamble at every point in the draft, even the 1st overall. It just gets bigger the further down you get. Hitting on a QB with a top 5 pick probably starts at 1 in 4 and gets worse from there.
Totally agree. I've looked at the numbers and it's not pretty. It just gets uglier after the top of the first. That's why I always disagreed with those who said that it would "be easy to upgrade from Jones".
You're paying for projections here. At least I hope so. I would hope nobody is paying $40M per year for 22 total TD's from the QB position. You are projecting DJ to continue to grow. You are projecting that his numbers will get significantly better with competent receivers. All DJ has proven is that he has the ability to progress...finally.
You said he's proven nothing, and are hiding behind stats.
He's proven something to people inside the building. It's posts like yours that cheapen these Jones conversations. We're way past him proving nothing.
Because Murray and Watson make $46M AAV each and he has looked better than both of them.
$50M is only a trophy AAV one time, and then it becomes a benchmark. Rodgers bagged the $50M trophy, and now the next set of franchise QBs to get paid (Herbert, Burrow, Hurts, Jackson... DJ in 2024 if tagged for 2023?) are all likely to land at or near the $50M level.
You can make a case for Hurts to be beneath that tier (just like one could note reasons for reservation with DJ's upcoming price), but I really think Murray's contract is going to be a troublesome comp for GMs across the league to contend with. I would be surprised if Jim Denton isn't using Murray's contract to DJ's advantage while negotiating with Schoen; why wouldn't Hurts's agent do the same with Roseman (and Hurts shares the same style of play as Murray, but is arguably better at it)? Link - ( New Window )
At the time Murray signed his deal, he was coming off a 9-5 campaign, 69% passer, just shy of 3800 passing yards, 29 total TDs between passing and rushing, in 14 games. The year prior he was arguably better. And I do NOT think Murray is a QB that a smart team builds around. The contract he received was a colossal mistake for the Cardinals org, and is an albatross.
Watson didn't really have a season this year. But if you are trying to say Jones is better than Watson...Watson got paid based on what he has done from 2018-2020...elite production.
If Jones can give us Watson's WORST statistical season out of that three year stretch, I'd drink his bathwater.
we LOVVVVVVVVE to rank QBs. Even though there are usually only about 3-4 living legends--and about 10-12 good ones after that, we insist on ranking Jones and fighting about whether he's 7th or 13th or where ever. WHo cares.
Never mind that none of that shit really matters or that it's all but impossible to truly quantify where Jones "ranks", numerically, nope all that really matters is can we win big and sustain things with Daniel Jones. Much like the only thing that mattered was whether NY could win big and sustain it with Eli Manning, or Phil Simms before him. Eli was never ranked top 5, not until 2011 anyway and even then people probably said he was more top 10, whatever the fuck that even means....
To be blunt, Ranking QBs is fucking stupid. It settles NOTHING. It doesn't prove anything.
Does Jones elevate the offense. Is he merely along for the ride or his he one of the better players on this offense. IS he keeping DC's up at night. Would a less mobile QB be doing more with this offense?
Draw your own conclusions. Getting worked up over whether Jones is or isn't "better" than Fields or Hurts or Cousins or whoever is such a huge waste of time. Is Jones fucking good? Is he capable of winning big games here? THAT is all that matters.
Because Murray and Watson make $46M AAV each and he has looked better than both of them.
$50M is only a trophy AAV one time, and then it becomes a benchmark. Rodgers bagged the $50M trophy, and now the next set of franchise QBs to get paid (Herbert, Burrow, Hurts, Jackson... DJ in 2024 if tagged for 2023?) are all likely to land at or near the $50M level.
You can make a case for Hurts to be beneath that tier (just like one could note reasons for reservation with DJ's upcoming price), but I really think Murray's contract is going to be a troublesome comp for GMs across the league to contend with. I would be surprised if Jim Denton isn't using Murray's contract to DJ's advantage while negotiating with Schoen; why wouldn't Hurts's agent do the same with Roseman (and Hurts shares the same style of play as Murray, but is arguably better at it)? Link - ( New Window )
At the time Murray signed his deal, he was coming off a 9-5 campaign, 69% passer, just shy of 3800 passing yards, 29 total TDs between passing and rushing, in 14 games. The year prior he was arguably better. And I do NOT think Murray is a QB that a smart team builds around. The contract he received was a colossal mistake for the Cardinals org, and is an albatross.
Watson didn't really have a season this year. But if you are trying to say Jones is better than Watson...Watson got paid based on what he has done from 2018-2020...elite production.
If Jones can give us Watson's WORST statistical season out of that three year stretch, I'd drink his bathwater.
Apologies, I noticed you were comparing them to Hurts, not Jones.
and you're getting more bang for your buck than people think. Jones won't be the highest paid QB, not by a long shot even if he does get 40 million per. BArkley will be the highest paid RB, and he will be making chump change compared to average WRs.
Bark and Jones are the NYG offensive identity. PAy them. Then add WRs and OL and let's fucking go.
Remember when people said you can't win with a big time running game? Yea me too...i screamed bullshit then I will remind people we are winning now thanks to that big time running game. Accentuate that. Build on that. Add some better WR talent and OL talent and we can continue to win on the backs of #26 and #8.
OK now I am done.
Keeping the cap hit reasonable in 23 would be a good start
Under 25 million
Really want to keep our guys and have enough left to pick up some mid level players at need positions
As discussed here numerous times, IOL and ILB should be fairly cost effective in FA
With 11 picks including likely comp picks, we should be able to really imprint JS and DB DNA on roster. I would expect a bit of maneuvering in mid rds to get there guy
And yes I have to ask, does a guy like odell make sense in 2023. It’s actually a perfect opportunity for him, he may be more of a complementary piece at this point. But I don’t know if price and team culture fit
So I am not pushing for it but I think it will be explored. Because we look like we can be a contender with this coaching staff and core
You draft well. Find impact players in the draft that are cost controlled. Then you don't have to overpay FA's. For good players that are on the roster and ready to enter FA you have a player from the draft ready to go but that is case by case.
RE: RE: RE: RE: This is a huge Win Win for us and the Giants
We wouldn't have to waste a first or second rounder on a potential QB of the future and can use it to upgrade our WR, ILB or CB corps.
It might have cost us multiple high picks to trade up. Expecting to get a franchise QB near the bottom of the first and later, would be a major gamble. Yeah, it can happen, but the odds of failure are much higher than the odds of success.
It is a big gamble at every point in the draft, even the 1st overall. It just gets bigger the further down you get. Hitting on a QB with a top 5 pick probably starts at 1 in 4 and gets worse from there.
Totally agree. I've looked at the numbers and it's not pretty. It just gets uglier after the top of the first. That's why I always disagreed with those who said that it would "be easy to upgrade from Jones".
Even a top 5 draft pick guarantees nothing.
That's because BBI fundamentally disagrees from one poster to the next about defining what an "upgrade from Jones" means to each person.
I would agree with you that it's no sure thing, even at the top of the draft, to get a QB of Jones's caliber, let alone a sure-fire upgrade in the immediate term (for example, I'd take Trevor Lawrence 10 times out of 10 over Jared Goff, but the latter has better passing numbers in 2022). But I don't think that's the only way to define an "upgrade" in salary cap terms. I think a reasonable case can be made that if you were able to get 75% of DJ's productivity for 25% of DJ's presumed 2023 price tag, that's an opportunity to upgrade to the overall roster if the money is spent wisely elsewhere.
Earlier in the season (and certainly prior to 2022 entirely), getting to 75% of DJ's productivity would not be a difficult task. Even this year, the statistical productivity is not especially difficult to match, so the context of that statement really matters when you bring up the "easy to upgrade from Jones" debates. And it's worth acknowledging that the statistical productivity is not the whole story, and shouldn't be, so I'm not trying to unfairly ding DJ here, for the record.
I'm just not sure why it has always been lost on some (and continues to be) that the arguments we've had for moving on from DJ being an upgrade for the Giants always resided primarily in the ways that Schoen could best spend $30M in cap space, not actually in some sort of certainty that you could just pluck a rookie QB at random from the college ranks and plug him into the Giants' offense without so much as a hiccup.
I said I'd start by offering him 4/100 and he might take it, that was about 6 weeks ago when I first said that. Considering where things stood, I thought that would be a smart offer.
Now - yeah - 3 for 100 and fully guaranteed would actually be a pretty fair deal and one that Jones would probably take as well.
Why are you such an asshole all of the time? My predictions on Jones have largely proven to be accurate. I'm not doing the board any disservice by predicting what he'll sign for. Anything 28-35M per year is fine by me. If he wants 40 per year over 3 years, I'd do that too.
the anti-Jones camp or "Jones doesn't deserve that" camp is doing the same things that Terps did all those years where he was constantly saying that Jones was a horrible quarterback.
You can't just continue to say things that are not based in any factual evidence or meaning.
You guys that are still holding on to this notion that Jones shouldn't be paid pretty significantly are living in 2020. Get over it.
I said I'd start by offering him 4/100 and he might take it, that was about 6 weeks ago when I first said that. Considering where things stood, I thought that would be a smart offer.
Now - yeah - 3 for 100 and fully guaranteed would actually be a pretty fair deal and one that Jones would probably take as well.
Why are you such an asshole all of the time? My predictions on Jones have largely proven to be accurate. I'm not doing the board any disservice by predicting what he'll sign for. Anything 28-35M per year is fine by me. If he wants 40 per year over 3 years, I'd do that too.
You haven't predicted a fucking thing, and even when you do, you predict multiple iterations to ensure that you can puff out your chest and take a victory lap.
You make up your own reasons for why people leave BBI and take victory laps over that, too.
You make up scenarios where an argument on BBI reminds you of how your wife argues with you, and take victory laps over that, too.
You draft well. Find impact players in the draft that are cost controlled. Then you don't have to overpay FA's. For good players that are on the roster and ready to enter FA you have a player from the draft ready to go but that is case by case.
This is where I'm relying on Schoen to be clear eyed. If you get caught up in "this is a playoff team now", then you don't actually have the time to draft well and wait on rookies to prove they can play. You're trying to win now. I'm not sure the Giants are actually there yet. They won a lot of close and low scoring games. The Titans are an example of a team that won lots of close games one year, but didn't the next year and now they're firing GMs and coordinators.
The Giants have to draft well regardless, but if you start chasing playoffs now, then you're building with a mix of free agents and drafted rookies.
I said I'd start by offering him 4/100 and he might take it, that was about 6 weeks ago when I first said that. Considering where things stood, I thought that would be a smart offer.
Now now we know you don’t like lying. You were adamant that Jones was taking a hometown discount and it was a forgone conclusion because he really wants to be a Giant.
ask any rational poster on this message board, and they'll say what I just said. I've been pretty steady on my Jones predictions. I said once he got a good coach and a slightly better OL, he would likely be the franchise QB that everyone wanted him to be.
I also predicted that the Giants would sign him, because he'll give the Giants every opportunity to match whatever else he's going to get, based on guaranteed money, etc, as long as some other offer isn't totally out of this world outlandish, which it doesn't appear like that will happen.
You are such a fucking asshole dude. Relax. Daniel Jones ended up being pretty damn good. Sorry you and some others don't know how to cope with it. But he's going to sign for big money (although not too big that it will seem ridiculous) and you'll just have to carry on.
I said I'd start by offering him 4/100 and he might take it, that was about 6 weeks ago when I first said that. Considering where things stood, I thought that would be a smart offer.
Now now we know you don’t like lying. You were adamant that Jones was taking a hometown discount and it was a forgone conclusion because he really wants to be a Giant.
Correct, and as I stated before, he absolutely will. If he gets a "better deal" from the Commanders or Carolina, he will stay with the Giants so long as its somewhat close. I am correct in that assumption - and if you don't realize that by now you are still sticking to your thoughts of Jones not being a Giant, because you really don't want him to be. Which is all you guys ever post about.
the anti-Jones camp or "Jones doesn't deserve that" camp is doing the same things that Terps did all those years where he was constantly saying that Jones was a horrible quarterback.
You can't just continue to say things that are not based in any factual evidence or meaning.
You guys that are still holding on to this notion that Jones shouldn't be paid pretty significantly are living in 2020. Get over it.
The people who are underpricing DJ are posters who have generally been mostly pro-DJ throughout his time here and now think a $30M AAV would be a validation of DJ's potential.
But I guess that's consistent with a group of people who say things that are not based in any factual evidence or meaning. By the way, you fit that description even with this post that I'm replying to.
Most of the so-called haters are the ones who actually understand the QB market and have concerns about how expensive a second contract is for an established QB1 signing with the team that drafted him.
Meanwhile, suggesting a 4y/$100M contract that has no comp anywhere in the current QB market is a perfect example of saying things that are not based in any factual evidence or meaning.
RE: RE: RE: Same chart, this time sorted by Average Salary
Who is better (RIght now) on that list other than Josh Allen? Who? After Josh I don’t see anyone that is significantly better.
So what kind of contract terms would you offer DJ this offseason, Carl? I'm not sure you've ever answered that question. It should be simple enough, since you've never had a doubt about DJ from the very start.
It's easy to wave the pom-poms until the rubber meets the road. What's the contract you'd offer?
Not sure but I would try and lock him up long term before Herbert, Jackson, Hurst and maybe Tua all set their numbers. It will bring his higher. That said Dunk I feel all qbs salaries are so inflated. But if you don’t have a QB in this league you can’t win.
The numbers you guys are throwing around for this QB are just bananas
Please remember, next season, you advocated for this. Literally, banging the table.
Section 125 told me I was making things up when I said, just 2 weeks ago, some BBIers were saying Jones should get $40M / yr.
He told me I was dishonest because nobody was saying that. Now, after one impressive win against the worst team in the league, fully half the board is saying it.
Guaranteed money is what matters most to QBs. I could care less if the average amount is 28 or 40 as to what it comes out to be per season. It will likely fall somewhere in between. Jones is going to want close to 100M guaranteed and he'll likely get it.
And if you think the posters who are underpricing Jones have been "mostly pro DJ" his entire career than you are more clueless than everyone thinks you are.
Most of this board wanted Jones gone after last season.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Same chart, this time sorted by Average Salary
Who is better (RIght now) on that list other than Josh Allen? Who? After Josh I don’t see anyone that is significantly better.
So what kind of contract terms would you offer DJ this offseason, Carl? I'm not sure you've ever answered that question. It should be simple enough, since you've never had a doubt about DJ from the very start.
It's easy to wave the pom-poms until the rubber meets the road. What's the contract you'd offer?
Not sure but I would try and lock him up long term before Herbert, Jackson, Hurst and maybe Tua all set their numbers. It will bring his higher. That said Dunk I feel all qbs salaries are so inflated. But if you don’t have a QB in this league you can’t win.
I think it's a given that he's going to get his contract before the others, if we assume that Boomer's intel is accurate. And I agree with you that DJ's price will continue to increase if the Giants take too long and some of the other young QBs get their deals first (although I don't think Herbert and Burrow change the calculus much because they're probably already assumed to be landing in the $50M AAV range as it is) - Tua and Hurts will be the contracts that could cement the $40M AAV as the bottom end of the QB1 tier going forward. That's where DJ will land also if he's not signed before them (and he might already land there anyway).
Just because a team does something really stupid, like the Cardinals, doesn't mean that all of a sudden, Jones will be signing for more money on AAV than Kyler Murray.
Sure you do. You should expect a big jump in Neal, Thibs and others from this past class with some guys that still have a chance coming back from injury. They have 11 picks this draft. They will have some money for smart moves in FA and to sign their own players.
Reasonable to expect JS if he does his job well to add a upper tier WR, ILB, corner and some depth with potential for some of the draft picks to outperform.
I think expectations should and will be to win the NFCE next year. The biggest gap was at the LOS. They can address this imv.
And if you think the posters who are underpricing Jones have been "mostly pro DJ" his entire career than you are more clueless than everyone thinks you are.
Most of this board wanted Jones gone after last season.
Read this thread.
Read any DJ thread.
There are several pro-DJ fans who post things like "hahaha DJ is going to get $25M a year whether you like it or not haterz!!!1!one!" without even realizing that they're suggesting a journeyman QB price tag.
Just because a team does something really stupid, like the Cardinals, doesn't mean that all of a sudden, Jones will be signing for more money on AAV than Kyler Murray.
That's actually exactly how contract comparisons work in negotiations.
Correct, and as I stated before, he absolutely will. If he gets a "better deal" from the Commanders or Carolina, he will stay with the Giants so long as its somewhat close. I am correct in that assumption - and if you don't realize that by now you are still sticking to your thoughts of Jones not being a Giant, because you really don't want him to be. Which is all you guys ever post about.
How are you correct in an assumption where you have zero insight into his camps thinking about scenario that might not even happen? This fantasy land you live in is wild. If Jones gets past the moratorium and gets offers from other teams he’s taking the highest offer. Whether that’s going to Carolina or the Giants matching whatever offer Carolina puts on the table for him.
And this has nothing to do with thinking the Giants shouldn’t commit big money to Jones yet, even though I know you think you’re inside every one on this boards heads. It’s insane that you don’t realize that what you accuse everyone else of being is just a projection of what you are.
Guaranteed money is what matters most to QBs. I could care less if the average amount is 28 or 40 as to what it comes out to be per season. It will likely fall somewhere in between. Jones is going to want close to 100M guaranteed and he'll likely get it.
Hahaha remember when you thought that extra years with less guaranteed money was somehow a benefit to Jones and he'd choose option #2 out of your three fictional scenarios?
Good thing you weren't making things up without factual evidence or meaning.
Yeah, I understand in “negotiations” that’s how it works - but what I’m saying is Joe Schoen doesn’t just go “oh wow Kyler Murray signed for this we have to at least pay Jones that!”
Murray’s AAV is 46M. That was a massive mistake. The Giants don’t need to just give Jones that because the Cardinals made an error.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Same chart, this time sorted by Average Salary
Not sure but I would try and lock him up long term before Herbert, Jackson, Hurst and maybe Tua all set their numbers. It will bring his higher. That said Dunk I feel all qbs salaries are so inflated. But if you don’t have a QB in this league you can’t win.
If he plays well it’s really irrelevant that they locked him in before those guys get their deals. If he plays at their level the next two years he’s not playing year 3 and 4 of the deal on a $20 million discount.
You guys can create all the scenarios you want. Jones will be a Giant, and he’ll take the deal from the Giants.
You guys dreaming up these scenarios about Schoen playing hardball or Jones going to another team, it’s not going to happen. You’ve been wrong repeatedly about Jones and you will continue to do so.
Couple of points I'm interested in tracking over the next few years.
1) In my view a franchise QB is roughly: He gets you to the playoffs most years. You pay him a lot, and therefore the surrounding talent suffers, but he makes up for it.
2) Franchise QBs almost always roll into the top 10 guarantees when they sign. If that's the case and Jones is a franchise QB, Team Jones is probably looking for 120M in guarantees, giving where the market will move this offseason.
You guys can create all the scenarios you want. Jones will be a Giant, and he’ll take the deal from the Giants.
You guys dreaming up these scenarios about Schoen playing hardball or Jones going to another team, it’s not going to happen. You’ve been wrong repeatedly about Jones and you will continue to do so.
You're a fucking hypocrite, just so we're clear. No one creates more fictional scenarios than you.
No way he gets less that $35m per and may get a bit more than that. If you believe 3/90 you just don’t get how it works.
This is 100% correct. Look, if Team Jones is still feeling in the spirit of the holiday season, and think 3/$90M is fair, Schoen signs on the dotted line in less than ten seconds.
But I can't believe Team Jones are that gullible and generous. This is a business first, game second.
Then again, I keep hearing Jones is a hard worker, dedicated, great teammate, Eagle scout, future recipient of President's Award for Distinguished Service, etc and will do whatever it takes to help the team financially... ;)
Couple of points I'm interested in tracking over the next few years.
1) In my view a franchise QB is roughly: He gets you to the playoffs most years. You pay him a lot, and therefore the surrounding talent suffers, but he makes up for it.
2) Franchise QBs almost always roll into the top 10 guarantees when they sign. If that's the case and Jones is a franchise QB, Team Jones is probably looking for 120M in guarantees, giving where the market will move this offseason.
If the supporting cast is the reason for Jones' anemic passing production (touchdowns, yards), I don't see an easy path to improve the receiving options if we are paying Jones a lot more money.
I am fine giving Jones a two year deal (or three with an easy out). I thought a season like this one was well within Jones' abilities - using his legs to produce points, limiting turnovers. However, I do not think Jones can carry a team to a top ten offense or put up elite passing production. Is the thesis on the team that passing production - or even having an elite offense - is de-emphasized?
The majority of the people that like Jones have defended him to death. The majority of those that didn't like him have been blaming him for everything and have wanted him off the team forever. Now that Jones has shown some signs(that's all it is, he hasn't proven a damn thing), the Jones fans that have defended him are going a bit too far.
He hasn't proven a damn thing to who?
Some fans want a passing attack in the top half of the league, not just good feelings.
You guys can create all the scenarios you want. Jones will be a Giant, and he’ll take the deal from the Giants.
You guys dreaming up these scenarios about Schoen playing hardball or Jones going to another team, it’s not going to happen. You’ve been wrong repeatedly about Jones and you will continue to do so.
Who is creating a scenario about Jones going to another team? You’re the one creating the hypothetical that Carolina and Washington are going to make him bigger offers and he’s going to come back to the Giants and say “I’ll take your smaller offer please”.
Like always you have no concept of how things work. Team Jones already knows the numbers other teams would be offering, they’ve already had those discussions under the table. If Boomer is right and they’re talking about the contract now, Team Jones has set their number at whatever number those teams gave them. The Giants will either come up to their number before the new league year starts or say prove you can get one of those deals offered on paper. Then the Giants will either match those numbers or tag him. If they sign a deal before the new league year, it’s because Team Jones knows there isn’t a better deal out there. They aren’t signing for a discount at this point in the year if there’s the possibility of something better out there, even if it means getting the Giants up to their price.
We'll offer 3 years $105m with $85m guaranteed, or
No way he gets less that $35m per and may get a bit more than that. If you believe 3/90 you just don’t get how it works.
This is 100% correct. Look, if Team Jones is still feeling in the spirit of the holiday season, and think 3/$90M is fair, Schoen signs on the dotted line in less than ten seconds.
But I can't believe Team Jones are that gullible and generous. This is a business first, game second.
Then again, I keep hearing Jones is a hard worker, dedicated, great teammate, Eagle scout, future recipient of President's Award for Distinguished Service, etc and will do whatever it takes to help the team financially... ;)
Couple of points I'm interested in tracking over the next few years.
1) In my view a franchise QB is roughly: He gets you to the playoffs most years. You pay him a lot, and therefore the surrounding talent suffers, but he makes up for it.
2) Franchise QBs almost always roll into the top 10 guarantees when they sign. If that's the case and Jones is a franchise QB, Team Jones is probably looking for 120M in guarantees, giving where the market will move this offseason.
If the supporting cast is the reason for Jones' anemic passing production (touchdowns, yards), I don't see an easy path to improve the receiving options if we are paying Jones a lot more money.
I am fine giving Jones a two year deal (or three with an easy out). I thought a season like this one was well within Jones' abilities - using his legs to produce points, limiting turnovers. However, I do not think Jones can carry a team to a top ten offense or put up elite passing production. Is the thesis on the team that passing production - or even having an elite offense - is de-emphasized?
It remains the core unanswered question from Jones' 2022 season. The main argument throughout has been what do you pay for this level of performance? How much more do you project Jones is capable of? How much of the projection revolves around the QB, and how much emphasis is being placed on projection of receiver upgrades? I think 3/120 is nuts at this point in time. I won't be shocked if they agree on 3/105, because it's clear they want him to succeed and there might not be an immediate upgrade available from UFA or the draft. After a playoff spot, they're unlikely to voluntarily make a decision where the optics are they're going backwards. 3/96-105 ballpark with market guarantees is better than the tag route for both parties, and keeps him off the market. A bird in hand and all that while they scout for the next QB.
it sounds like we are willing to tag which means 2 things - Jones will have to duplicate his success and not sustain a major injury. I don’t expect some big discount but the risks are magnified a bit for him since this his his lone standout year and he’s had an injury history.
1) I know we we didn't give him great weapons
2) I know he does some good things with his feet
But end of the day he's a QB. A QB who threw for 15 TDs in 16 games, and who averaged 200 yards passing per game.
I like him and everything, but talk of paying him like he's an elite QB is ridiculous.
At the end of the day we only asked him to throw ~25 times per game. Even if he completes 80% that is only 20 passes, hence 200 yds. Given the offense we are running he wasn't going to throw 40 times and get 300-400 yards. Its math. When asked, like vs Minny, he did. He completed 30-42 for 334 yds.
So Daboll and Schoen must think he can do it, and they are in a way under utilizing him because of our issues at WR. Given our talent, I think emphasizing Barkley and Jones running was exactly the right thing to do.
it sounds like we are willing to tag which means 2 things - Jones will have to duplicate his success and not sustain a major injury. I don’t expect some big discount but the risks are magnified a bit for him since this his his lone standout year and he’s had an injury history.
That’s why I think the best offer on a multi year deal from anyone is going to be $25-$30 million. I don’t think anyone is committing multi years at a price above the tag for one year of ok production. I wouldn’t call it a discount either, because it’s what the top offers will be.
I think it’s the Giants who will be pushing for 4 years
They are committed to him and want him on a longer deal because by years 3 and 4, $35m per will be a bargin. I think they may sweeten it to get there say 4/$150 with $100 guaranteed. 4/$140 though may get it done.
1) I know we we didn't give him great weapons
2) I know he does some good things with his feet
But end of the day he's a QB. A QB who threw for 15 TDs in 16 games, and who averaged 200 yards passing per game.
I like him and everything, but talk of paying him like he's an elite QB is ridiculous.
At the end of the day we only asked him to throw ~25 times per game. Even if he completes 80% that is only 20 passes, hence 200 yds. Given the offense we are running he wasn't going to throw 40 times and get 300-400 yards. Its math. When asked, like vs Minny, he did. He completed 30-42 for 334 yds.
So Daboll and Schoen must think he can do it, and they are in a way under utilizing him because of our issues at WR. Given our talent, I think emphasizing Barkley and Jones running was exactly the right thing to do.
One person refers to the whole season.
One outlier does not disprove the season's work.
There is more than one season to consider as well.
RE: RE: There’s more risk for Jones than some admit
it sounds like we are willing to tag which means 2 things - Jones will have to duplicate his success and not sustain a major injury. I don’t expect some big discount but the risks are magnified a bit for him since this his his lone standout year and he’s had an injury history.
That’s why I think the best offer on a multi year deal from anyone is going to be $25-$30 million. I don’t think anyone is committing multi years at a price above the tag for one year of ok production. I wouldn’t call it a discount either, because it’s what the top offers will be.
Assuming you mean other teams (anyone), then 3 years for $90 million with $60 million guaranteed (first 2 years) is the market and anything higher than that is the Giants bidding against themselves
and with the not for long league that could be one of several teams that feel Jones would help that team advance.
Risks on both sides. The ones noted above for Jones and the risk for JS that someone does put a very big deal together that will be much more than he wanted to spend. I think Jones carry's the bigger risk with teams also having to give up two picks. JS then makes a choice.
You hope talks if they are happening find a compromise. Its a negotiation and things can go a different direction if one side feels the other is not being fair.
by 2-3 million for every playoff game he wins. Let's say the Giants are offering 3 years, $30 million per year. Jones' asking price goes up quite a bit with a deep playoff run
Couple of points I'm interested in tracking over the next few years.
1) In my view a franchise QB is roughly: He gets you to the playoffs most years. You pay him a lot, and therefore the surrounding talent suffers, but he makes up for it.
2) Franchise QBs almost always roll into the top 10 guarantees when they sign. If that's the case and Jones is a franchise QB, Team Jones is probably looking for 120M in guarantees, giving where the market will move this offseason.
If the supporting cast is the reason for Jones' anemic passing production (touchdowns, yards), I don't see an easy path to improve the receiving options if we are paying Jones a lot more money.
I am fine giving Jones a two year deal (or three with an easy out). I thought a season like this one was well within Jones' abilities - using his legs to produce points, limiting turnovers. However, I do not think Jones can carry a team to a top ten offense or put up elite passing production. Is the thesis on the team that passing production - or even having an elite offense - is de-emphasized?
It remains the core unanswered question from Jones' 2022 season. The main argument throughout has been what do you pay for this level of performance? How much more do you project Jones is capable of? How much of the projection revolves around the QB, and how much emphasis is being placed on projection of receiver upgrades? I think 3/120 is nuts at this point in time. I won't be shocked if they agree on 3/105, because it's clear they want him to succeed and there might not be an immediate upgrade available from UFA or the draft. After a playoff spot, they're unlikely to voluntarily make a decision where the optics are they're going backwards. 3/96-105 ballpark with market guarantees is better than the tag route for both parties, and keeps him off the market. A bird in hand and all that while they scout for the next QB.
Yes, I'm concerned the team record is coloring the analysis of the offense (and by extension Jones). A made FG in TN and final minute touchdown in either London or Jacksonville has people singing different tunes, IMO.
This is still not a good offense despite Barley having a great year and Jones having his best season. Jones supporters are 100% correct that there is no upgrade available. But I don't see Jones as a championship guy unless we can build a 49ers type roster.
I also think it's highly likely another team offers him an incredibly stupid deal if he hits the market.
1) I know we we didn't give him great weapons
2) I know he does some good things with his feet
But end of the day he's a QB. A QB who threw for 15 TDs in 16 games, and who averaged 200 yards passing per game.
I like him and everything, but talk of paying him like he's an elite QB is ridiculous.
At the end of the day we only asked him to throw ~25 times per game. Even if he completes 80% that is only 20 passes, hence 200 yds. Given the offense we are running he wasn't going to throw 40 times and get 300-400 yards. Its math. When asked, like vs Minny, he did. He completed 30-42 for 334 yds.
So Daboll and Schoen must think he can do it, and they are in a way under utilizing him because of our issues at WR. Given our talent, I think emphasizing Barkley and Jones running was exactly the right thing to do.
One person refers to the whole season.
One outlier does not disprove the season's work.
There is more than one season to consider as well.
You are missing the point. Daboll/Schoen have a clean sheet, and have worked with top QB's in the past. They know what they are doing. If we end up giving Jones a 3 yr, $120M or so contract, that means they think he is a good QB. They have seen him every day, and worked with him all year. We, and you, have zero idea what he can do. So if they give him that contract I am assuming that Minny wasn't the outlier, and they know he can do it all the time (if its in the game plan).
RE: RE: RE: Daniel Jones is a very polarizing player.
The majority of the people that like Jones have defended him to death. The majority of those that didn't like him have been blaming him for everything and have wanted him off the team forever. Now that Jones has shown some signs(that's all it is, he hasn't proven a damn thing), the Jones fans that have defended him are going a bit too far.
He hasn't proven a damn thing to who?
Some fans want a passing attack in the top half of the league, not just good feelings.
the offense is top half of the league. I guess that doesn't work?
NY Giants were about average in terms of pts scored in 1990, passing game included. About average in 2007, passing game included. And the team that won the super bowl last year, the Rams, were 9th in scoring.
You're going to let a QB walk because of that??? Isn't there more to QB evaluation than just "having an above average passing game?" --isn't there also some nuance or mitigating factors to think of as well? of course there are.
Couple of points I'm interested in tracking over the next few years.
1) In my view a franchise QB is roughly: He gets you to the playoffs most years. You pay him a lot, and therefore the surrounding talent suffers, but he makes up for it.
2) Franchise QBs almost always roll into the top 10 guarantees when they sign. If that's the case and Jones is a franchise QB, Team Jones is probably looking for 120M in guarantees, giving where the market will move this offseason.
If the supporting cast is the reason for Jones' anemic passing production (touchdowns, yards), I don't see an easy path to improve the receiving options if we are paying Jones a lot more money.
I am fine giving Jones a two year deal (or three with an easy out). I thought a season like this one was well within Jones' abilities - using his legs to produce points, limiting turnovers. However, I do not think Jones can carry a team to a top ten offense or put up elite passing production. Is the thesis on the team that passing production - or even having an elite offense - is de-emphasized?
Maybe they can use Golladay's $900M salary towards improving the WR's?
But I like the point Collin Cowherd made the other day. There are 5 QBs where if the phone rings for an offer you don't even pick it up- Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert and Lawrence. Brady and Rogers are who they are but they're olda and don't have much left. His point is Jones' ceiling can be in that next grouping with Dak,Hurts, Cousins, Goff etc...
So if that's the case why not sign him to the 30-35 mill range. Sure we all want a top 5 guy but they also cost 45-50 mill+ per year. This way we have a guy who can be top 10ish and have money for elsewhere. It's real tough to get that top 5 guy. Eli wasn't that and we won 2 SBs with him. I get it if people disagree with the take. We all have our opinions and Jones definitely is a mixed bag to this point.
I agree. This is about optics and risk management. It has nothing to do with requisite value or sensible cap management. Assuming DJ continues to progress this week in Minnesota and contributes to a big win, Mara will want this to get done on the low end of the scale being bandied about here.
But to make a Kyler Murray or Deshaun Watson error just isn't in the cards if Schoen has any say in this. The franchise tag still gives the team sufficient leverage to keep this negotiation in check.
This emerging thesis though that DJ will now miraculously transcend from the Trubisky/Mariota realm and become a quarterback on par with the Allens, Burrows, Herberts and Mahomes of the world is just fanciful narrative inflation. DJ is a good Giant who works hard and has progressed from below average to average under the superb tutelage of Daboll and Kafka.
Which we have learned from the very start of this season in Tennessee, and especially after yesterday's miraculous transformation of Davis Webb to Davy Dimes, is truly something of great value that should be recognized and celebrated.
but let’s be honest, it doesn’t really mean too much if Daboll endorses it, which I think he will. If Daboll had major reservations about Jones’ ability to improve than I don’t think we offer a contract at all (or maybe a heavily discounted one).
But I like the point Collin Cowherd made the other day. There are 5 QBs where if the phone rings for an offer you don't even pick it up- Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert and Lawrence. Brady and Rogers are who they are but they're olda and don't have much left. His point is Jones' ceiling can be in that next grouping with Dak,Hurts, Cousins, Goff etc...
So if that's the case why not sign him to the 30-35 mill range. Sure we all want a top 5 guy but they also cost 45-50 mill+ per year. This way we have a guy who can be top 10ish and have money for elsewhere. It's real tough to get that top 5 guy. Eli wasn't that and we won 2 SBs with him. I get it if people disagree with the take. We all have our opinions and Jones definitely is a mixed bag to this point.
This is exactly what I think too, except I haven't got Lawrence in that group (yet).
Schoen and Daboll might also think that Jones had a good rookie year
He actually did quite well outside the turnovers as a rookie QB under Shurmur, and you could argue that the turnovers were part and parcel of a rookie QB not being able to fully adjust to the speed of the NFL level
I'd say Jones had two out of four good seasons by that metric. The middle two seasons under Judge were bad and even though Judge and Jason Garrett were horrific, Jones was also a below average QB for a non-rookie
Year 1-Salary -20 million(gtd) = Cap hit $25M
Year 2-Salary -25 million(gtd) = Cap hit $30M
Year 3-Salary -30 million(gtd) = Cap hit $35M
Year 4-Salary -35 million(5M gtd)= Cap hit $40M
RE: RE: RE: There’s more risk for Jones than some admit
Assuming you mean other teams (anyone), then 3 years for $90 million with $60 million guaranteed (first 2 years) is the market and anything higher than that is the Giants bidding against themselves
Correct. That’s where I see the market being, with it getting to 3 years $100 million with $75 million guaranteed if they win and he puts together a good performance Sunday. A game like the first Minnesota game without the turnover.
They will know just about everything about Jones. 1000 offensive plays going all the way back to OTA #1 and how he has progressed to today.
The playoffs are a part of the evaluation. I wouldn't put a dollar amount on a win but if he goes on and is a huge part of why they advance it certainly will impact things and JS will see it that way imv.
Year 1-Salary -20 million(gtd) = Cap hit $25M
Year 2-Salary -25 million(gtd) = Cap hit $30M
Year 3-Salary -30 million(gtd) = Cap hit $35M
Year 4-Salary -35 million(5M gtd)= Cap hit $40M
I'd be averse to giving Jones a 4th season unless he has a deep playoff run
Year 1-Salary -20 million(gtd) = Cap hit $25M
Year 2-Salary -25 million(gtd) = Cap hit $30M
Year 3-Salary -30 million(gtd) = Cap hit $35M
Year 4-Salary -35 million(5M gtd)= Cap hit $40M
I'd be averse to giving Jones a 4th season unless he has a deep playoff run
That contract is essentially a 3 year deal with a team option for a 4th year. All of the gtd money is in the first 3 years with only 5M gtd in year 4.
Couple of points I'm interested in tracking over the next few years.
1) In my view a franchise QB is roughly: He gets you to the playoffs most years. You pay him a lot, and therefore the surrounding talent suffers, but he makes up for it.
2) Franchise QBs almost always roll into the top 10 guarantees when they sign. If that's the case and Jones is a franchise QB, Team Jones is probably looking for 120M in guarantees, giving where the market will move this offseason.
If the supporting cast is the reason for Jones' anemic passing production (touchdowns, yards), I don't see an easy path to improve the receiving options if we are paying Jones a lot more money.
I am fine giving Jones a two year deal (or three with an easy out). I thought a season like this one was well within Jones' abilities - using his legs to produce points, limiting turnovers. However, I do not think Jones can carry a team to a top ten offense or put up elite passing production. Is the thesis on the team that passing production - or even having an elite offense - is de-emphasized?
Maybe they can use Golladay's $900M salary towards improving the WR's?
Spotrac says he is $7.9mm of dead cap if a post-June 1 cut. Jones would be getting a $25mm raise. Barkley would also be getting a raise. We would probably need to cut elsewhere?
or stuff that is sort of hard to debate or truly quantify, like the passing stats or the clutch factor and whether Jones can or cannot....I get that...truly.
What I find amazing is how these threads go 1000 post crazy and you really don't see too many people respect and acknowledge how hard it is for a QB to rush for 750 yards in a season and not only that, but rush for BIG yards when needed. Not just 750 yards...but 750 big yards. Game saving yards.
I watched the NYG Panther game last night because why not. YEt another of many underrated wins. "ONly scored 19 pts" cranky NYG fans as usual couldn't wait to indict Jones after this game. They did so all year. Thing is, watch that game again. Watch how good Jones looked in the 2nd half. NYG down 7 second half. Jones was literally under siege all day long. There were 2-3 plays second half that Jones had not one, but two and three guys jailbreaking on his ass and Jones either didn't take a sack or actually netted positive yards. I defy anyone to find a QB that does better in those spots. Time and time again in that game, when Barkley had done NOTHING, and the WRs, other than Shepard, were an unproven and barely even practicing lot, not nearly as refined as this group right now --this is a game an average offense loses. Carolina was ready to play after the fucked up first quarter. Jones won this game on his own, second hald but all we remember is "19 pts"
Year 1-Salary -20 million(gtd) = Cap hit $25M
Year 2-Salary -25 million(gtd) = Cap hit $30M
Year 3-Salary -30 million(gtd) = Cap hit $35M
Year 4-Salary -35 million(5M gtd)= Cap hit $40M
No. Less than $
35m per will not get it done. Especially for 4 years.
Jones counts 8+M against the cap and if he's signed to an extension, will probably be 20-25M against the cap. he will get a 15M raise in cap numbers, but I get your point. The significant savings on golladay will be in 24...
Jones counts 8+M against the cap and if he's signed to an extension, will probably be 20-25M against the cap. he will get a 15M raise in cap numbers, but I get your point. The significant savings on golladay will be in 24...
lol - nvm then
RE: Schoen and Daboll might also think that Jones had a good rookie year
He actually did quite well outside the turnovers as a rookie QB under Shurmur, and you could argue that the turnovers were part and parcel of a rookie QB not being able to fully adjust to the speed of the NFL level
I'd say Jones had two out of four good seasons by that metric. The middle two seasons under Judge were bad and even though Judge and Jason Garrett were horrific, Jones was also a below average QB for a non-rookie
If you admit that Judge and Garrett were both "horrific", how could Jones possibly have had good seasons with them in charge? Especially with the "talent" they had on offense. He didn't even have a healthy SB to hand the ball off to...
watch the games. Watch them again. Count how many times at least 1 guy is flashing toward the QB from the jump. Not after 1-2 seconds, from the snap. One guy is kind of normal so I am not indicting the OL for that at all. It's kind of normal. When is it normal? When your WRs don't scare the DC and he is more inclined to pressure the QB and running plays.
Then keep watching and count how many times in the 2nd half, when the games were close, how many times a holy shit we're all dead moment occurs only to see Jones somehow avoid the sack and many times actually net good yardage.
The guy is a regular Houdini act out there for most of the season but he doesn't really run or move like his hair is on fire and he doesn't possess that quick twitch AA that guys like Jackson possess, and he's quiet and doesn't self promote like the most overrated QB of the last 20 years does, Mr Mayfield. He just gets 11 yards on 3rd and long and leads his team to a ho hum, "not good enough" win. Remember this? - ( New Window )
Jones doesn't have to get any better much like Barkley and Thomas
the offensive playmakers and maybe an interior OL needs to be improved.
Why did Eli's passing numbers explode from average (2007 )to near elite (2011)? Eli was the same. Nicks and CRuz were better.
Jones can throw for 28-30 TDs and 4000 yards in his sleep with this staff. I hope he runs less going forward or only as needed --i'd rather see him throwing it then rushing. This too will come once the WRs and OL continue to evolve.
or stuff that is sort of hard to debate or truly quantify, like the passing stats or the clutch factor and whether Jones can or cannot....I get that...truly.
What I find amazing is how these threads go 1000 post crazy and you really don't see too many people respect and acknowledge how hard it is for a QB to rush for 750 yards in a season and not only that, but rush for BIG yards when needed. Not just 750 yards...but 750 big yards. Game saving yards.
I watched the NYG Panther game last night because why not. YEt another of many underrated wins. "ONly scored 19 pts" cranky NYG fans as usual couldn't wait to indict Jones after this game. They did so all year. Thing is, watch that game again. Watch how good Jones looked in the 2nd half. NYG down 7 second half. Jones was literally under siege all day long. There were 2-3 plays second half that Jones had not one, but two and three guys jailbreaking on his ass and Jones either didn't take a sack or actually netted positive yards. I defy anyone to find a QB that does better in those spots. Time and time again in that game, when Barkley had done NOTHING, and the WRs, other than Shepard, were an unproven and barely even practicing lot, not nearly as refined as this group right now --this is a game an average offense loses. Carolina was ready to play after the fucked up first quarter. Jones won this game on his own, second hald but all we remember is "19 pts"
WATCH. THE. GAMES. Then watch them again.
If you want a new QB every four years, let them run all day.
Is one of the thin options we have at the position. The other thin option is f'ing with momentum and continuity to downgrade the offense and going with Tyrod and an unkonwn in Year 2. It's just the way it is. I don't see 2-3 year commitment (in whatever form) at a high AAV and reasonable guarantees as tieing our hands or precluding us from looking at QBs on Day 1 or 2 in the future either. You're overpaying in the interim for his floor, not his ceiling.
Things do get dicey for me when you're throwing around 100M+ in guarantees though, he's most certainly your guy going forward in that situation. Hard to get away from that. I like Jones, but for what he is right now, you're better off making him prove it again on the tag because you're already paying him like that.
watch the games. Watch them again. Count how many times at least 1 guy is flashing toward the QB from the jump. Not after 1-2 seconds, from the snap. One guy is kind of normal so I am not indicting the OL for that at all. It's kind of normal. When is it normal? When your WRs don't scare the DC and he is more inclined to pressure the QB and running plays.
Then keep watching and count how many times in the 2nd half, when the games were close, how many times a holy shit we're all dead moment occurs only to see Jones somehow avoid the sack and many times actually net good yardage.
The guy is a regular Houdini act out there for most of the season but he doesn't really run or move like his hair is on fire and he doesn't possess that quick twitch AA that guys like Jackson possess, and he's quiet and doesn't self promote like the most overrated QB of the last 20 years does, Mr Mayfield. He just gets 11 yards on 3rd and long and leads his team to a ho hum, "not good enough" win. Remember this? - ( New Window )
Highlights v. the entire picture.
RE: Jones doesn't have to get any better much like Barkley and Thomas
the offensive playmakers and maybe an interior OL needs to be improved.
Why did Eli's passing numbers explode from average (2007 )to near elite (2011)? Eli was the same. Nicks and CRuz were better.
Jones can throw for 28-30 TDs and 4000 yards in his sleep with this staff. I hope he runs less going forward or only as needed --i'd rather see him throwing it then rushing. This too will come once the WRs and OL continue to evolve.
Jones absolutely does need to get better at things. Assuming him staying the same and just getting better WRs and they get 4K yards and 30 tds is insanely optimistic.
In comment 15985396 Kmed6000 said:
[quote] In comment 15985364 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 15985317 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15985288 dpinzow said:
Quote:
With $60 million guaranteed and a voidable 3rd year if Jones regresses
I would be shocked if Team Jones signs that. That would be a very magnanimous gesture by them.
I agree. A lot of middling QBs out there making more than that. Why would Jones give the Giants some kind of deep discount or very team friendly terms?
I'm sure Jones sees value in sticking as he's finally with a coaching staff that has a clue. But after the stupid money recently thrown at Deshaun Watson, Kyler Murray and Russell Wilson, (not to mention Carr, Stafford, Cousins, Goff, Wentz, Ryan and Tannehill making more that $30K per year avg), no way his agent lets him agree to a big discount
I'm not sure this is a good case for signing Jones. You name a plethora of QB's, some of which are better than Jones and deserve to be paid more:
Watson, Stafford, Cousins, Goff and possibly Tannehill.
You also mentioned older QB's that have a big history in the NFL and are well into their careers:
Wilson, Carr, Matt Ryan.
Then you mention QB's that are way overpaid and holding back their teams:
Wentz and Murray
People are getting a little out of hand about Jones. I get that he's improving and has room to grow and that is certainly worth something, but he's still a risk to sign at big money. Pretending like he's owed more than everyone on this list or even near the top is dangerous, IMO. [/quote
The Giants are in the playoffs mainly because of DJ, wise up.
I'm sorry, but this just isn't true. Daniel Jones did a great job of not losing games, but this is getting nuts, IMO.
We have one of the best running games in the NFL. 5th in the NFL in YPC(Daniel Jones is certainly a part of that). SB was one of the best running backs in football this year.
Defensively, we were pretty damn good holding teams to under 22 pts per game and coming through when needed.
We are in the playoffs because of coaching, IMO. They used this personnel perfectly.
A few weeks ago some posters would say DJ will get 3/$120, and both the DJDoubters and DJHaters would hammer them mercilessly.
Today we are seeing DJDoubters tossing out 3/120, and even some DJHaters appear to be softening their position.
The thread is about a report that Jones will absolutely be re-signed. So, if you assume that inevitability, wouldn't it make sense to talk what is practical around that framework?
I wouldn't go beyond a FT. And even take the risk of letting Team Jones test the market. But those options appear off the table per the OP.
the offensive playmakers and maybe an interior OL needs to be improved.
Why did Eli's passing numbers explode from average (2007 )to near elite (2011)? Eli was the same. Nicks and CRuz were better.
Jones can throw for 28-30 TDs and 4000 yards in his sleep with this staff. I hope he runs less going forward or only as needed --i'd rather see him throwing it then rushing. This too will come once the WRs and OL continue to evolve.
Jones absolutely does need to get better at things. Assuming him staying the same and just getting better WRs and they get 4K yards and 30 tds is insanely optimistic.
Yes, Jones does need to get better at things (all QB's do). But it's not insane to think he can throw for 28 TD's and 4,000. He's got a bunch of #3 WR's and an OL who can't pass block for shit (though they have gotten better the last few games, they are still pretty bad at it overall).
He threw for 3,200 yards in 16 games this season - if he played yesterday, he would be up to 3,400 if he threw for his per game average. That means he would have to throw for 600 more yards over 17 games, which is about 35 per game. With a real WR (or two) and a better blocking line, why is that so outrageous?
How many runs did have this year that started as a pass attempt that turned into scrambles because 1) no one was open or 2) he didn't see an open player (to your point about needing to get better)?
4,000 is very achievable. 28 TD's is as well, if he can get a top flight WR.
Jones's primary representative is Jim Denton, but Schoen mentioned Patrick Collins is part of Team Jones. Important to note, Collins did the Josh Allen deal.
Keeps getting proven more and more wrong each week. I’ll be the one to go out on a limb, Hodgins is going to be better for the Giants than Davis is for Buffalo if the Giants find a legit #1
Keeps getting proven more and more wrong each week. I’ll be the one to go out on a limb, Hodgins is going to be better for the Giants than Davis is for Buffalo if the Giants find a legit #1
I also think a number of fans will be surprised what James and Slayton earn next year in the open market.
Some people act as if offering DJ a contract is a big favor
Get off your high horse and open your eyes. If you can’t accept that maybe you underestimated his ability that is on you. A real fan would be glad we found our QB and we can move on to other areas of need.
Jones's primary representative is Jim Denton, but Schoen mentioned Patrick Collins is part of Team Jones. Important to note, Collins did the Josh Allen deal.
And Sexton isn’t one of his reps, but you know he’s always in the mix somehow on the outside.
Get off your high horse and open your eyes. If you can’t accept that maybe you underestimated his ability that is on you. A real fan would be glad we found our QB and we can move on to other areas of need.
I’m a real fan. I have season tickets. I’d bring Jones back for next year but I’m not fully convinced he’s worth signing for multiple years with $100 million guaranteed. Does that not make me a real fan?
Giants were 6th in dropped passes this season with 27, but that is only two off the top team (TB, which had 29). That's more than double the Eagles (13), who were ranked 29th.
Again - if they can cut the number of drops even by 8-10 (ie, getting a real WR), that would net him a bunch more yards (100?)
Keeps getting proven more and more wrong each week. I’ll be the one to go out on a limb, Hodgins is going to be better for the Giants than Davis is for Buffalo if the Giants find a legit #1
I also think a number of fans will be surprised what James and Slayton earn next year in the open market.
Goes to show you how dumb the WR market is. Doesn’t mean those players aren’t 3s.
Keeps getting proven more and more wrong each week. I’ll be the one to go out on a limb, Hodgins is going to be better for the Giants than Davis is for Buffalo if the Giants find a legit #1
Hodgins is a possession receiver . Don't me wrong, he's really good at it. But he's not a burner, not someone who can stretch the field. IMO, it's a stretch to think he'll be anything more than a really good #3. Maybe - MAYBE - a 2, if he's the option behind an alpha 1.
However, I'm curious - if Hodgins does become a 2 and/or ends up better than Davis, is that because Jones had a role in elevating Hodgins as a player? Or will all the credit go to scheme/coaching or whatever?
Because I've been told that elite QB's raise the level of play for the players around him. SO just curious how much credit Jones would get for the ascension
PS - Davis doesn't have to be "great" for Buffalo. Not when you have a go to guy like Diggs as the #1. But right now, Hodgins appears to be the go to guy. Huge difference.
Yds and 30 TDs and not make the playoffs? Or have 3,200 yds lead the league in not throwing interceptions have 25 combined making the playoffs? This younger generation is all on stats and analytics rather than being a general out there bringing home the W’s.
and jobs are on the line some players get overpaid. Giants lived in this reality for 10 years.
What any player gets is not also a true measure of talent and production. It just takes one team to set a market.
To wit - some moron paid $72 million to Golladay. If some team is stupid enough to overpay for Slayton or James, that doesn't prove shit about how good they will be
Keeps getting proven more and more wrong each week. I’ll be the one to go out on a limb, Hodgins is going to be better for the Giants than Davis is for Buffalo if the Giants find a legit #1
Where exactly has this been proven?
Do you think any of our receivers could be a 1 or a 2 somewhere else?
Keeps getting proven more and more wrong each week. I’ll be the one to go out on a limb, Hodgins is going to be better for the Giants than Davis is for Buffalo if the Giants find a legit #1
I also think a number of fans will be surprised what James and Slayton earn next year in the open market.
Goes to show you how dumb the WR market is. Doesn’t mean those players aren’t 3s.
I think the underlying numbers indicate Slayton has much better upside than a 3rd option.
As JonC pointed out the number is probably higher than the non exclusive tag. Probably around $35M. Maybe a 3 year deal, something that doesn’t preclude them from going for a QB if the right prospect comes along.
I’ve been critical of Jones, but who are you replacing him with? I look around the league at some absolutely horrific QB play. Then there is “trade for Russell Wilson” or “trade for DeShaun Watson”, really? How are those massive contracts looking? I was intrigued by Malik Willis but he’s been so bad he got benched.
It’s easy to move on until you see some of the alternatives. Jones doesn’t need to be “the guy” but still could be a lot better than the alternative. That’s okay. This is where I think I’ve been wrong. So many people can’t accept the middle ground.
or stuff that is sort of hard to debate or truly quantify, like the passing stats or the clutch factor and whether Jones can or cannot....I get that...truly.
What I find amazing is how these threads go 1000 post crazy and you really don't see too many people respect and acknowledge how hard it is for a QB to rush for 750 yards in a season and not only that, but rush for BIG yards when needed. Not just 750 yards...but 750 big yards. Game saving yards.
I watched the NYG Panther game last night because why not. YEt another of many underrated wins. "ONly scored 19 pts" cranky NYG fans as usual couldn't wait to indict Jones after this game. They did so all year. Thing is, watch that game again. Watch how good Jones looked in the 2nd half. NYG down 7 second half. Jones was literally under siege all day long. There were 2-3 plays second half that Jones had not one, but two and three guys jailbreaking on his ass and Jones either didn't take a sack or actually netted positive yards. I defy anyone to find a QB that does better in those spots. Time and time again in that game, when Barkley had done NOTHING, and the WRs, other than Shepard, were an unproven and barely even practicing lot, not nearly as refined as this group right now --this is a game an average offense loses. Carolina was ready to play after the fucked up first quarter. Jones won this game on his own, second hald but all we remember is "19 pts"
WATCH. THE. GAMES. Then watch them again.
Great stuff. The haters on this board love to throw out the stats but disregard the plenty big play moments. DJ has at times put this team on his back and won games on his own. The fact that he did this with a leaky OL and at best average WRs makes it even more amazing. Cite all the stats you want but this kid has IT!! His desire and determination and football sense are not an average commodity that many have. Instead of knocking his every move we should be thankful we have him. How many on this board predicted a 3,4, or 5 game win season, guess why it's more. Mainly DJ!! Many here will be surprised by the contract he gets, if not from the Giants someone else and to make them feel better will say the team was dumb.
Yds and 30 TDs and not make the playoffs? Or have 3,200 yds lead the league in not throwing interceptions have 25 combined making the playoffs? This younger generation is all on stats and analytics rather than being a general out there bringing home the W’s.
Sounds great and all, you're such a football purist and realist, but the goal is to win a SB and this offense is not winning a SB. How many SB's were won by teams that didn't succeed passing the ball? Even still, the goal is to be perennial contenders and the only proven method of doing that in the NFL is by having a great QB that can pass the ball.
To be better protected and have WRs who can catch the ball. He passes the ball just fine. His numbers are great. He doesn’t throw it enough cause the defense gives up way to much on the ground limiting his possessions. Don’t say he doesn’t pass the ball well enough cause it’s just not true.
RE: RE: Some people act as if offering DJ a contract is a big favor
Get off your high horse and open your eyes. If you can’t accept that maybe you underestimated his ability that is on you. A real fan would be glad we found our QB and we can move on to other areas of need.
I’m a real fan. I have season tickets. I’d bring Jones back for next year but I’m not fully convinced he’s worth signing for multiple years with $100 million guaranteed. Does that not make me a real fan?
Were you one of the fans giving him a standing ovation at the Colts game?
Yds and 30 TDs and not make the playoffs? Or have 3,200 yds lead the league in not throwing interceptions have 25 combined making the playoffs? This younger generation is all on stats and analytics rather than being a general out there bringing home the W’s.
I am not not is that crowd with the analytics and data gurus trying to apply as a rule in a real time contact sport with constant change. Provide the data and let the big boys make the decisions as they see the situation.
That said they need more pass production. I think 4k plus is very reasonable for next year and I also hope they get to 26 pts or so. Keep the rushing carries similar but have more from the backs instead of Jones. I expect Bellinger and a upper tier WR to provide a good amount more TD's with the other weapons benefitted as well.
Keeps getting proven more and more wrong each week. I’ll be the one to go out on a limb, Hodgins is going to be better for the Giants than Davis is for Buffalo if the Giants find a legit #1
Hodgins is a possession receiver . Don't me wrong, he's really good at it. But he's not a burner, not someone who can stretch the field. IMO, it's a stretch to think he'll be anything more than a really good #3. Maybe - MAYBE - a 2, if he's the option behind an alpha 1.
However, I'm curious - if Hodgins does become a 2 and/or ends up better than Davis, is that because Jones had a role in elevating Hodgins as a player? Or will all the credit go to scheme/coaching or whatever?
Because I've been told that elite QB's raise the level of play for the players around him. SO just curious how much credit Jones would get for the ascension
PS - Davis doesn't have to be "great" for Buffalo. Not when you have a go to guy like Diggs as the #1. But right now, Hodgins appears to be the go to guy. Huge difference.
Davis caught 4 touchdown passes in the conference championship game. If Hodgins is better than that sign me up.
I think the Giants should invest and focus on hitting ground game metrics that have a higher propensity to predict wins, than any arbitrary pass game measurements. Those are just stupid analytics.
whether Jones numbers would be better with better players around him?
Good Lord.
NOTHING in life is guaranteed. If the Packers bring back Rodgers there's no guarantee he won't be Old Man River. There was no guarantee Russell Wilson would be good for DEN. There is no guarantee C.J. Stroud will be a good 1st round pick.
You don't get guarantees. But if you're getting hung up on whether DJ's numbers would increase with better receivers, you're lost. It's probably the safest projection you could make in football. Going from subpar WRs to good WRs = more QB production. I'm OK taking that "risk".
The only thing Davis has a higher grade than Hodgins
whether Jones numbers would be better with better players around him?
Good Lord.
NOTHING in life is guaranteed. If the Packers bring back Rodgers there's no guarantee he won't be Old Man River. There was no guarantee Russell Wilson would be good for DEN. There is no guarantee C.J. Stroud will be a good 1st round pick.
You don't get guarantees. But if you're getting hung up on whether DJ's numbers would increase with better receivers, you're lost. It's probably the safest projection you could make in football. Going from subpar WRs to good WRs = more QB production. I'm OK taking that "risk".
is that it forestall the next round of "With whom should we replace Daniel Jones?" for at least a couple years.
My concern with three years is that if he doesn't have the greatest season ever in 2023, BBI capologists will immediately start moving money around in their empty heads to find a way to cut him after one season.
To be better protected and have WRs who can catch the ball. He passes the ball just fine. His numbers are great. He doesn’t throw it enough cause the defense gives up way to much on the ground limiting his possessions. Don’t say he doesn’t pass the ball well enough cause it’s just not true.
Carl, you sound like an idiot when you say this. I'm perfectly willing to accept various explanations for why DJ's numbers are what they are, including scheme, past coaching, current skill position weaknesses, etc. What I'm not willing to do is play make-believe.
DJ's numbers are not great. Patrick Mahomes' numbers are great. Joe Burrow's numbers are great. I'd even say that Jalen Hurts's numbers this season are great, if you're looking at 2-way threats at QB. DJ's numbers aren't in that stratosphere. They're not great.
That doesn't mean it's his fault. It doesn't mean he shouldn't be signed. It doesn't mean he's bad at football or any of that - this isn't meant to knock him. It's meant to keep us grounded in reality. There's a lot of reasons for DJ's numbers to be not great, but it's important to acknowledge that they are, in fact, not great.
Because if this is "great," then DJ can GTFO and so can anyone else who thinks this is what great offense looks like. It's been good enough this year. There are some encouraging reasons to think it could continue to get better with Daboll, Kafka, and additional reinforcements on offense. And that may result in DJ's numbers becoming great. But they're not now, not yet.
whether Jones numbers would be better with better players around him?
Good Lord.
NOTHING in life is guaranteed. If the Packers bring back Rodgers there's no guarantee he won't be Old Man River. There was no guarantee Russell Wilson would be good for DEN. There is no guarantee C.J. Stroud will be a good 1st round pick.
You don't get guarantees. But if you're getting hung up on whether DJ's numbers would increase with better receivers, you're lost. It's probably the safest projection you could make in football. Going from subpar WRs to good WRs = more QB production. I'm OK taking that "risk".
It could lead to more production but downsides do exist if the run game falls off.
What I hope they shoot for is keeping the rushing carries consistent and adding more pop to the pass game. They don't need to be a 5k passing team.
2022 they averaged 30.5 carries, 148 yards, 4.8 YPA.
Take some carries away from Jones and give it to the backs but strengthening the IOL and hopeful Neal and Bellinger improvement. YPA probably dips a bit running wise but that is okay. Shoot for 4.5 plus. If your in the 3's things won't be going well unless your QB, OL and WR's bail you out.
Hit those running numbers and they are sitting pretty with a good D.
Playoffs again. As the case in 2005-08, 10 and now this year. When they let the ground game go to crap is when the destruction happened outside 2011 which was a special QB and group of WR's.
Haha, what's to explain? There are no guarantees in life. Is that what you're getting hung up on?
As I said, it's a safe bet that better surrounding talent will = better production from the QB. And specifically - getting a QB a #1 WR increases production.
Yds and 30 TDs and not make the playoffs? Or have 3,200 yds lead the league in not throwing interceptions have 25 combined making the playoffs? This younger generation is all on stats and analytics rather than being a general out there bringing home the W’s.
Wins are a team stat, based on a variety of factors.
The more points you score, the more likely you are to win. It's not "analytics" it's basic. If your plan is to score 21 PPG and win, you need a lot of things to go right, and you don't need to spend $35 million on a QB.
To be better protected and have WRs who can catch the ball. He passes the ball just fine. His numbers are great. He doesn’t throw it enough cause the defense gives up way to much on the ground limiting his possessions. Don’t say he doesn’t pass the ball well enough cause it’s just not true.
Carl, you sound like an idiot when you say this. I'm perfectly willing to accept various explanations for why DJ's numbers are what they are, including scheme, past coaching, current skill position weaknesses, etc. What I'm not willing to do is play make-believe.
DJ's numbers are not great. Patrick Mahomes' numbers are great. Joe Burrow's numbers are great. I'd even say that Jalen Hurts's numbers this season are great, if you're looking at 2-way threats at QB. DJ's numbers aren't in that stratosphere. They're not great.
That doesn't mean it's his fault. It doesn't mean he shouldn't be signed. It doesn't mean he's bad at football or any of that - this isn't meant to knock him. It's meant to keep us grounded in reality. There's a lot of reasons for DJ's numbers to be not great, but it's important to acknowledge that they are, in fact, not great.
Because if this is "great," then DJ can GTFO and so can anyone else who thinks this is what great offense looks like. It's been good enough this year. There are some encouraging reasons to think it could continue to get better with Daboll, Kafka, and additional reinforcements on offense. And that may result in DJ's numbers becoming great. But they're not now, not yet.
Not fighting here but what does Hurst have? Smith and Brown, Burrow Chase, Boyd and Higgins, Mahomes , Kelce and pack of fast Wr’s that run after the catch. All of the above would be #1 receivers on the giants. Jones doesn’t get the 10 yd throws taken to the house like other QBs.
To be better protected and have WRs who can catch the ball. He passes the ball just fine. His numbers are great. He doesn’t throw it enough cause the defense gives up way to much on the ground limiting his possessions. Don’t say he doesn’t pass the ball well enough cause it’s just not true.
Carl, you sound like an idiot when you say this. I'm perfectly willing to accept various explanations for why DJ's numbers are what they are, including scheme, past coaching, current skill position weaknesses, etc. What I'm not willing to do is play make-believe.
DJ's numbers are not great. Patrick Mahomes' numbers are great. Joe Burrow's numbers are great. I'd even say that Jalen Hurts's numbers this season are great, if you're looking at 2-way threats at QB. DJ's numbers aren't in that stratosphere. They're not great.
That doesn't mean it's his fault. It doesn't mean he shouldn't be signed. It doesn't mean he's bad at football or any of that - this isn't meant to knock him. It's meant to keep us grounded in reality. There's a lot of reasons for DJ's numbers to be not great, but it's important to acknowledge that they are, in fact, not great.
Because if this is "great," then DJ can GTFO and so can anyone else who thinks this is what great offense looks like. It's been good enough this year. There are some encouraging reasons to think it could continue to get better with Daboll, Kafka, and additional reinforcements on offense. And that may result in DJ's numbers becoming great. But they're not now, not yet.
Not fighting here but what does Hurst have? Smith and Brown, Burrow Chase, Boyd and Higgins, Mahomes , Kelce and pack of fast Wr’s that run after the catch. All of the above would be #1 receivers on the giants. Jones doesn’t get the 10 yd throws taken to the house like other QBs.
Cool, that's great. And I'm not disagreeing with you - I agree that there are external factors that influence a QB's numbers.
We can sit here and have a really interesting discussion about how much those factors impact the overall offense, how much they cost (in dollars and/or draft picks), etc. That sounds like it would be a productive conversation.
It also would be a different topic than what I responded to. Because it would invariably be similar to what you just replied with, a whole bunch of whatabouts to explain why other QBs have great numbers. It's all valid. Do you know what it doesn't translate to?
DJ's numbers right now being great. Because they're not. Not yet.
Yds and 30 TDs and not make the playoffs? Or have 3,200 yds lead the league in not throwing interceptions have 25 combined making the playoffs? This younger generation is all on stats and analytics rather than being a general out there bringing home the W’s.
Wins are a team stat, based on a variety of factors.
The more points you score, the more likely you are to win. It's not "analytics" it's basic. If your plan is to score 21 PPG and win, you need a lot of things to go right, and you don't need to spend $35 million on a QB.
I highly doubt the plan is to score 21 pts. Yes this was the plan this year because of the make up of the offense, but moving forward I have to believe we want to look more like Buffalo. It comes down to what DaBoll and Schoen think of Jones. They have seen him every day for a year, and have also coached big time QBs.
Jones has shown glimpses and won games, but also wasn't asked to usually do the 45 passes a game thing. Doesn't mean he can or he can't, its just not how DaBoll is winning games right now. If they give him a contract and think he is the right guy, then I'm on board. They know a lot more than I do about this.
But he is #7 in QBR Burrow is 10th Herbert is #11. Kid has a great year doing it with no one. To say they have great stats over him is just not true considering everything not just TDs thrown. Mahomes is the best in football. But can we win with Jones at QB without a doubt.
not only do we not have anyone taking slants or screens to the house, something you see from the top teams on an almost weekly basis, we don’t have anyone getting 50/50 balls which I’d argue is more important. Whenever we throw deep i wince a bit knowing who’s on the receiving end of it, fully expecting a drop/tip INT. Not absolving Jones for the things he still needs to get better at, but the personnel just isn’t where it needs to be if we are going to take that next step up.
But he is #7 in QBR Burrow is 10th Herbert is #11. Kid has a great year doing it with no one. To say they have great stats over him is just not true considering everything not just TDs thrown. Mahomes is the best in football. But can we win with Jones at QB without a doubt.
The QBs I mentioned DO have better stats over DJ. That's a fucking fact.
The context around those stats matter, and the context helps inform the QB's value. But it doesn't inform his stats. I'm not arguing that we can or can't win with DJ. I'm rooting like hell for him to win four more games this year alone.
What I'm arguing against is your statement that "[DJ's] numbers are great." They just aren't great, not yet. And I'm not saying they can't be. I'm not saying they won't be. I'm not saying he's the reason why they're not. I'm saying simply that DJ's numbers are not what can be objectively considered "great" at their current level right now.
But he is #7 in QBR Burrow is 10th Herbert is #11. Kid has a great year doing it with no one. To say they have great stats over him is just not true considering everything not just TDs thrown. Mahomes is the best in football. But can we win with Jones at QB without a doubt.
The QBs I mentioned DO have better stats over DJ. That's a fucking fact.
The context around those stats matter, and the context helps inform the QB's value. But it doesn't inform his stats. I'm not arguing that we can or can't win with DJ. I'm rooting like hell for him to win four more games this year alone.
What I'm arguing against is your statement that "[DJ's] numbers are great." They just aren't great, not yet. And I'm not saying they can't be. I'm not saying they won't be. I'm not saying he's the reason why they're not. I'm saying simply that DJ's numbers are not what can be objectively considered "great" at their current level right now.
You're correct. Variables around the QB matter. It seems idiotic to not include that when making comparisons.
LoS, it also seems idiotic to ignore that those QB comparisons originated in response to a statement which read, "[DJ's] numbers are great."
Present tense. Fully realized.
"DJ's numbers are not great. Patrick Mahomes' numbers are great. Joe Burrow's numbers are great. I'd even say that Jalen Hurts's numbers this season are great, if you're looking at 2-way threats at QB. DJ's numbers aren't in that stratosphere. They're not great."
I guess I am missing something. From the looks of it you're determining great.
I stand by what I said. The bigger thing is you do not know is what exactly the HC wanted from DJ within the make up of this team he may have performed several things that were GREAT for this staff. Those things may not always show up in a more touted stat but are as important to THIS team winning. Especially considering the variables around him.
The more points you score, the more likely you are to win. It's not "analytics" it's basic. If your plan is to score 21 PPG and win, you need a lot of things to go right, and you don't need to spend $35 million on a QB.
While it's been a down year in scoring across the league, you indeed need to have a lot line up right to win and make the playoffs at 21/PPG
We come into these playoffs as the 16th ranked team in PPG. Outside of the Ravens (19th) and the Bucs (25th), that is the lowest for teams who qualified for the playoffs.
For context, Ravens have basically played the last six weeks without LJax, which has dragged down their scoring average. The Ravens have averaged 12/PPG without him. And I think most of us would agree the Bucs are only in the tournament because they play in the NFCS disaster.
Of our nine wins, two teams that have made the playoffs - Jacksonville and the Ravens. And that Raven win was - let's be honest - an early Christmas present.
But he is #7 in QBR Burrow is 10th Herbert is #11. Kid has a great year doing it with no one. To say they have great stats over him is just not true considering everything not just TDs thrown. Mahomes is the best in football. But can we win with Jones at QB without a doubt.
They throw a lot more, meaning there's more room for changes in QBR.
Burrow has thrown the ball over six hundred times.
Herbert has thrown the ball 699 times
Jones 472. A lot more can happen in that difference of attempts.
Very hilarious to me that the same people who thought Jones would/does suck are the ones now arguing whether to pay him 25M or 35M and for how many years. You guys will just continue to kick the can down the road on this argument.
It's very obvious to everyone on earth that has come to grips with it - that Jones is the Giants franchise QB. Whether or not he improves dramatically, slightly, or hell, reverts to his prior play - that's up to him. Schoen and Daboll are betting that he's going to improve over the next few years by paying him 3/4 years and whatever he gets.
This discussion on AAV and salary is dandy. But bottom line - it will be what Schoen does to improve the rest of the team as well that will also impact the team performance.
All I know is that you guys keep discussing Jones as if he's the same QB from 2021 or 2020. That is no longer a discussion. He's clearly significantly better than most of you thought, and yeah, it took awhile, he needed better coaching and better OL play. No fucking shit. Every QB would be better with those things.
Players change. They get better. They get worse. Some take more time than others.
The fact that some of you are stuck in the past with Jones is quite sad.
RE: RE: RE: Now we're going to sit here and debate
Haha, what's to explain? There are no guarantees in life. Is that what you're getting hung up on?
As I said, it's a safe bet that better surrounding talent will = better production from the QB. And specifically - getting a QB a #1 WR increases production.
You said better WRs leading to better QB production is the easiest projection to make, but then how is there two examples from just this year?
But he is #7 in QBR Burrow is 10th Herbert is #11. Kid has a great year doing it with no one. To say they have great stats over him is just not true considering everything not just TDs thrown. Mahomes is the best in football. But can we win with Jones at QB without a doubt.
They throw a lot more, meaning there's more room for changes in QBR.
Burrow has thrown the ball over six hundred times.
Herbert has thrown the ball 699 times
Jones 472. A lot more can happen in that difference of attempts.
Sure. But imagine if jones could throw the ball to Austin eckler out the backfield for 107 receptions this season? Those are some pretty safe passes.
Contrast that to Barkley, who (i believe) has the most dropped passes this season. (Either for running backs or all receivers, I’m not sure)
You're correct. Variables around the QB matter. It seems idiotic to not include that when making comparisons.
LoS, it also seems idiotic to ignore that those QB comparisons originated in response to a statement which read, "[DJ's] numbers are great."
Present tense. Fully realized.
"DJ's numbers are not great. Patrick Mahomes' numbers are great. Joe Burrow's numbers are great. I'd even say that Jalen Hurts's numbers this season are great, if you're looking at 2-way threats at QB. DJ's numbers aren't in that stratosphere. They're not great."
I guess I am missing something. From the looks of it you're determining great.
I stand by what I said. The bigger thing is you do not know is what exactly the HC wanted from DJ within the make up of this team he may have performed several things that were GREAT for this staff. Those things may not always show up in a more touted stat but are as important to THIS team winning. Especially considering the variables around him.
I saw plenty of great things he did this year.
I consider player statistics to be one of the few objective data points that we have. I also believe it's naive to rely on statistics alone if your goal is to fully capture the value of a player or the success of a team.
I think you can value a player quite highly and attribute quite a bit of team success to that player when examining a team in its totality, while also recognizing that some (much?) of a player's value may be underrepresented on the agate page. Thus, I think it's possible to appreciate a player's value to his team's success - paraphrasing from you, doing great things within his role in his team's strategy - while also acknowledging that his style of play does not result in objectively great statistics in the way that we're all familiar as football fans in general.
This is not a knock on DJ. When you see that a QB throws for 400 yards, 4 TDs, no interceptions, and wins 35-14 or something like that, it's easy (and accurate) to call that a great game for the QB, and to recognize that his numbers were great. Pile up a bunch of easily recognizable great games and you start to have easily recognizable great numbers for the season.
DJ has had a great season, largely correlated with the Giants having a great season. The Giants would not be where they are right now without DJ. There's a lot of nuance in DJ's game that makes the context and gameflow matter more. The Giants win on razor-thin margins, and not just in terms of the final score. Daboll and his staff have to manage every possession with really smart chess-like strategy. A team like the Bengals or Chiefs, with their prolific offenses, can overcome a possession here or there that they throw away taking a couple of failed shots. The Giants aren't built that way, so they don't play that way, and that includes DJ. It's by design, and it's working. I'm not complaining about it, I'm just saying that it doesn't translate into easily recognizable great numbers for the QB.
It's lazy (and intellectually dishonest) to say that DJ's numbers are great. They're not great numbers by the most common QB metrics. That doesn't mean he's not playing great football.
Very hilarious to me that the same people who thought Jones would/does suck are the ones now arguing whether to pay him 25M or 35M and for how many years. You guys will just continue to kick the can down the road on this argument.
It's very obvious to everyone on earth that has come to grips with it - that Jones is the Giants franchise QB. Whether or not he improves dramatically, slightly, or hell, reverts to his prior play - that's up to him.
We get it. That point has been conceded, I fully expect that Jones will be the Giants QB for at least 2023 and probably thru 2025. You can stop fighting for him on that front.
But Jones is going to have to deliver, because that's the expectation for QBs in the NFL. Those expectations are the next phase in the ONGOING conversation about the NY Giants. Jones isn't just a cog, he's the damn QB, the most important position in the game.
That isn't "kicking the can down the road" that's just reality.
Very hilarious to me that the same people who thought Jones would/does suck are the ones now arguing whether to pay him 25M or 35M and for how many years. You guys will just continue to kick the can down the road on this argument.
It's very obvious to everyone on earth that has come to grips with it - that Jones is the Giants franchise QB. Whether or not he improves dramatically, slightly, or hell, reverts to his prior play - that's up to him. Schoen and Daboll are betting that he's going to improve over the next few years by paying him 3/4 years and whatever he gets.
This discussion on AAV and salary is dandy. But bottom line - it will be what Schoen does to improve the rest of the team as well that will also impact the team performance.
All I know is that you guys keep discussing Jones as if he's the same QB from 2021 or 2020. That is no longer a discussion. He's clearly significantly better than most of you thought, and yeah, it took awhile, he needed better coaching and better OL play. No fucking shit. Every QB would be better with those things.
Players change. They get better. They get worse. Some take more time than others.
The fact that some of you are stuck in the past with Jones is quite sad.
What is this rambling nonsense? Should we not discuss what the contract is going to be? Are peoples not allowed to change their opinion when new data presents itself? No wonder why your wife argues with you so much.
The fact that some of you are stuck in the past with Jones is quite sad.
You bring up the past more than everyone else combined. More projection, it seems.
Nope, not projecting. Just remember this thread on the day that he signs his contact, you guys are going to be absolutely stunned that you were yet again wrong about how the Giants feel about Jones.
when you finally realize that Daniel Jones is the Giants franchise QB, you'll stop being so defensive about your original opinion of him and you'll just start to enjoy his play instead of possibly thinking that he might go to another team or revert back to his average play.
The fact that some of you are stuck in the past with Jones is quite sad.
You bring up the past more than everyone else combined. More projection, it seems.
Nope, not projecting. Just remember this thread on the day that he signs his contact, you guys are going to be absolutely stunned that you were yet again wrong about how the Giants feel about Jones.
WTF are you talking about? My multiyear contract prediction for DJ has consistently been significantly higher than yours for months and you think this is gonna be your watershed *GOTCHA* moment? Do you not realize that you already painted yourself into a corner where if DJ doesn't take a hometown discount to stay with the Giants that you were wrong all along?
Get a grip.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Now we're going to sit here and debate
Haha, what's to explain? There are no guarantees in life. Is that what you're getting hung up on?
As I said, it's a safe bet that better surrounding talent will = better production from the QB. And specifically - getting a QB a #1 WR increases production.
You said better WRs leading to better QB production is the easiest projection to make, but then how is there two examples from just this year?
Because Murray sucks as a passer?
Carr regressing this year really defies logic. He had Adams and Waller, and he still regressed. Some will blame it on him having a new HC (so did jones, his 3rd HC in 4 years, but i digress). IMO he has begun to decline.
and btw, you and GD have both brought up my wife after I made a small joke about arguments like 2 weeks ago. Keep it classy you fucking assholes. Jesus christ.
RE: RE: RE: I’m not saying DJ is best qb in football
But he is #7 in QBR Burrow is 10th Herbert is #11. Kid has a great year doing it with no one. To say they have great stats over him is just not true considering everything not just TDs thrown. Mahomes is the best in football. But can we win with Jones at QB without a doubt.
They throw a lot more, meaning there's more room for changes in QBR.
Burrow has thrown the ball over six hundred times.
Herbert has thrown the ball 699 times
Jones 472. A lot more can happen in that difference of attempts.
Sure. But imagine if jones could throw the ball to Austin eckler out the backfield for 107 receptions this season? Those are some pretty safe passes.
Contrast that to Barkley, who (i believe) has the most dropped passes this season. (Either for running backs or all receivers, I’m not sure)
Just sayin’
I understand what you're saying, but that's part of the reason the QBR numbers rank a bit lower than Jones, a lot of short passes.
This is the same phenomenon as when Jones was hailed as being the best deep passer rated in the NFL. It was technically true, and also it was on the bare minimum qualifying attempts.
QBs like Rogers were rated lower, but had nearly three times the attempts made.
Better to be very efficient on 60 deep passes rather than being hyper efficient on 20 deep passes a year. There's a lot of line up between teams that have more explosive plays and teams that score more points and win more games.
the constant back and forth regarding Jones is so fucking tiresome. They aren't looking for "the next QB." They have one. Whatever they end up paying him, i'm sure you guys will find a way to say things like "wow, Schoen better know what he's doing...." or something to that effect, just to let everyone here know that you still dont really believe in Jones.
and btw, you and GD have both brought up my wife after I made a small joke about arguments like 2 weeks ago. Keep it classy you fucking assholes. Jesus christ.
Maybe you should learn to laugh things off instead of taking everything Jones-related so personally. I'm sorry some of us don't love him like you do. It'll be okay.
and btw, you and GD have both brought up my wife after I made a small joke about arguments like 2 weeks ago. Keep it classy you fucking assholes. Jesus christ.
I think it was like two or three days ago. If it makes you feel better, I don't really think you have a wife, or I wouldn't keep making jokes about it.
when you finally realize that Daniel Jones is the Giants franchise QB, you'll stop being so defensive about your original opinion of him and you'll just start to enjoy his play instead of possibly thinking that he might go to another team or revert back to his average play.
I’m not defensive. I’ve said for weeks it’s likely he’s back for a couple of years, the rest depends on the price.
I know it’s a novel concept for your mush brain to handle, but I enjoy when Daniel Jones plays well. One thing is for certain if he does revert back to the 2020 and 2021 Jones, you’ll never face the fire.
Yds and 30 TDs and not make the playoffs? Or have 3,200 yds lead the league in not throwing interceptions have 25 combined making the playoffs? This younger generation is all on stats and analytics rather than being a general out there bringing home the W’s.
Wins are a team stat, based on a variety of factors.
The more points you score, the more likely you are to win. It's not "analytics" it's basic. If your plan is to score 21 PPG and win, you need a lot of things to go right, and you don't need to spend $35 million on a QB.
The fact that this is lost on so many people is baffling to me. Has Jones improved this year? Absolutely. But to just say, "hey our QB went from sucking to middle of the pack. Lets pay him the market rate" is not a sound way to run a football team with so many players in a game of attrition.
This does not apply only to Jones by the way. I have been bitching about QB salaries getting out of control for over 10 years.
Did Aaron Rodgers take less to keep Adams around? Of course not. Did Eli Manning take less despite having an absolute dogshit offensive line in front of him for years? He never left a penny on the table.
At least we knew Eli in his prime was a top 10 QB who could win the Superbowl. Whoever said ranking QBs and determining where they stand relative to their peers doesn't matter, that is absurd. Of course it matters. Derek Carr is an above average - good QB. The Raiders are dumping him this offseason because paying him $40M isn't worth it.
So let's say the Giants give Jones a 3 year, $120M contract. Well that is 18% of the cap in 2023. Then they slap Barkley with the FT. There goes most of the cap space the team has this offseason.
The WR FA market sucks, so we are forced to draft for need. Well, the draft is a crap shoot. You can end or with Justin Jefferson, Jaylon Raegor or Kadarius Toney. Large contracts are on the horizon for Lawrence, Thomas and McKinney. Let's not forget that Adoree Jackson has only 1 year left on his deal, so add corner to the list of needs in addition to LB, IOL, and WR.
I don't know the answer here. But the Giants better be smart about this.
I still think the best answer is to institute a max QB contract into the CBA that is a % of the cap, regardless of the total number to level the playing field.
the constant back and forth regarding Jones is so fucking tiresome. They aren't looking for "the next QB." They have one. Whatever they end up paying him, i'm sure you guys will find a way to say things like "wow, Schoen better know what he's doing...." or something to that effect, just to let everyone here know that you still dont really believe in Jones.
You make it the back and forth. This thread was perfectly fine without any nonsense, discussing potential contract structure and they strut in like you’re some kind of football genius telling people to “deal with”, “Jones it’s getting if you don’t agree you’re an a idiot and get over it”. Open your fucking eyes dude.
on the contrary, i'm able to face the fire and admit when i'm dead wrong about certain things. which is the exact opposite with the same 30 posters who continue to talk about Jones like he isnt any good.
and btw, you and GD have both brought up my wife after I made a small joke about arguments like 2 weeks ago. Keep it classy you fucking assholes. Jesus christ.
I think it was like two or three days ago. If it makes you feel better, I don't really think you have a wife, or I wouldn't keep making jokes about it.
I still think the best answer is to institute a max QB contract into the CBA that is a % of the cap, regardless of the total number to level the playing field.
This is always an interesting topic. Obviously the Union would be against it because it hurts QB contracts but it also helps other players earn more money too.
So now DJ had a great season according to you. Got it. I just said he did a lot of great things in it.
I also said it is idiotic to compare to other QB's without also including the variables and situation of that QB so one can make a better assessment.
Whether or not Jones will be great with different expectations based off talent is TBD but for me I think he has a good chance to take another big step with the right variables in place. That is JS/BD to figure out.
I will say the things he was asked and relied to do were not always easy and often under a lot of stress. Those things to translate.
their offense got better. And without him during his injury and suspension it got worse, lol. Why is this an example of a WR not helping? Carr likely didn’t mesh well with McDaniels or his style of offense, that has a lot more to do with his regression than anything else.
And for whoever said Murray isn’t a good passer I call bullshit. Despite having to throw through the trees hes been above 65% since entering the league and almost at 70% last year along with 8 YPA. You can be a poor passer and have those kind of metrics.
I said it was VERY likely the Giants would make the playoffs.
It was over 80%
I then said that if the Giants made the playoffs it would be a foregone conclusion that he would be resigned. A tag if no deal could be reached but he would definitely be back.
I heard all kinds of REALLY ignorant shit in response.
"You don't know what or who Daboll or Schoen wants to run their system".
I know they want to make the fucking playoffs.
You think Daboll is going to want to replace the QB that gets him to the playoffs in his first year as head coach?
"Yes"
Wow.
or my favorite
"It doesn't matter, because winning like this is not sustainable"
Anybody wanna raise their hand that said that kind of stuff early in the year?
It's OK, I remember, I'm just not the of putz to put people on blast.
I believe they are actually trying to extend him right because they believe he can do real damage in the playoffs. That will only make the contract go up.
Jones is ascending.
You(We) were wrong about Jones, I just saw it months ago and had the courage to admit it.
Some of you look really small today.
I warned you.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I’m not saying DJ is best qb in football
But he is #7 in QBR Burrow is 10th Herbert is #11. Kid has a great year doing it with no one. To say they have great stats over him is just not true considering everything not just TDs thrown. Mahomes is the best in football. But can we win with Jones at QB without a doubt.
They throw a lot more, meaning there's more room for changes in QBR.
Burrow has thrown the ball over six hundred times.
Herbert has thrown the ball 699 times
Jones 472. A lot more can happen in that difference of attempts.
Sure. But imagine if jones could throw the ball to Austin eckler out the backfield for 107 receptions this season? Those are some pretty safe passes.
Contrast that to Barkley, who (i believe) has the most dropped passes this season. (Either for running backs or all receivers, I’m not sure)
Just sayin’
I understand what you're saying, but that's part of the reason the QBR numbers rank a bit lower than Jones, a lot of short passes.
This is the same phenomenon as when Jones was hailed as being the best deep passer rated in the NFL. It was technically true, and also it was on the bare minimum qualifying attempts.
QBs like Rogers were rated lower, but had nearly three times the attempts made.
Better to be very efficient on 60 deep passes rather than being hyper efficient on 20 deep passes a year. There's a lot of line up between teams that have more explosive plays and teams that score more points and win more games.
Don’t disagree that QBR is a flawed stat. But there isn’t a perfect stat out there.
It’s unfathomable to me that there are still people out there who don’t/won’t acknowledge that - by ANY measure - Jones didn’t have great season. The eye test alone should tell people that.
It’s hard for a team to make the playoffs with out your QB having a really really good - if not great - season. Sure it happens - ie, Derrick Henry carrying TEN in the past - but it’s not that common.
I also said it is idiotic to compare to other QB's without also including the variables and situation of that QB so one can make a better assessment.
This has some merit.
For example, I look how KC performed with Mahomes and think only a three other QBs in the league could perform near that level.
I look at how NYG performed, and I think there are probably 13 other QBs who could have been just as effective under the deft hands of Daboll and Kafka.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I’m not saying DJ is best qb in football
But he is #7 in QBR Burrow is 10th Herbert is #11. Kid has a great year doing it with no one. To say they have great stats over him is just not true considering everything not just TDs thrown. Mahomes is the best in football. But can we win with Jones at QB without a doubt.
They throw a lot more, meaning there's more room for changes in QBR.
Burrow has thrown the ball over six hundred times.
Herbert has thrown the ball 699 times
Jones 472. A lot more can happen in that difference of attempts.
Sure. But imagine if jones could throw the ball to Austin eckler out the backfield for 107 receptions this season? Those are some pretty safe passes.
Contrast that to Barkley, who (i believe) has the most dropped passes this season. (Either for running backs or all receivers, I’m not sure)
Just sayin’
I understand what you're saying, but that's part of the reason the QBR numbers rank a bit lower than Jones, a lot of short passes.
This is the same phenomenon as when Jones was hailed as being the best deep passer rated in the NFL. It was technically true, and also it was on the bare minimum qualifying attempts.
QBs like Rogers were rated lower, but had nearly three times the attempts made.
Better to be very efficient on 60 deep passes rather than being hyper efficient on 20 deep passes a year. There's a lot of line up between teams that have more explosive plays and teams that score more points and win more games.
Don’t disagree that QBR is a flawed stat. But there isn’t a perfect stat out there.
It’s unfathomable to me that there are still people out there who don’t/won’t acknowledge that - by ANY measure - Jones didn’t have great season. The eye test alone should tell people that.
It’s hard for a team to make the playoffs with out your QB having a really really good - if not great - season. Sure it happens - ie, Derrick Henry carrying TEN in the past - but it’s not that common.
Not even Sy thinks he had a great season. What you're beholding isn't uniformly accepted fact. These nasty Jones arguments come from a person or people projecting their view as the obviously correct thing when it's simply not objectively true.
agree on the former but not the later. With out personnel the running was critical and outside of the top passers in the league, there aren’t many who’d be able to make up for it without running. Your boy Jimmy G, for example, wouldnt be able to be effective with this personnel IMO, and that’s if he even lasts the season.
Let me use the word great in the proper context here...
I also said it is idiotic to compare to other QB's without also including the variables and situation of that QB so one can make a better assessment.
This has some merit.
For example, I look how KC performed with Mahomes and think only a three other QBs in the league could perform near that level.
I look at how NYG performed, and I think there are probably 13 other QBs who could have been just as effective under the deft hands of Daboll and Kafka.
I say the number is closer to 10 but let's not quibble and go with 13. It seems really reasonable to think that with another year and better pieces Jones will produce more. I have issue with all the credit being given to the coaches when in the past we did not give Jones the excuse of bad coaching.
I am going to say unequivocally that Jones has improved in multiple areas, most importantly red zone efficiency. This shows up in both the statistics and to the discerning eye. They do not want this kid to get to the market. I don't think he signs ANYTHING. We can go far.
agree on the former but not the later. With out personnel the running was critical and outside of the top passers in the league, there aren’t many who’d be able to make up for it without running. Your boy Jimmy G, for example, wouldnt be able to be effective with this personnel IMO, and that’s if he even lasts the season.
I did not include JimG in my grouping.
I could see the following doing what Jones did or >:
But he is #7 in QBR Burrow is 10th Herbert is #11. Kid has a great year doing it with no one. To say they have great stats over him is just not true considering everything not just TDs thrown. Mahomes is the best in football. But can we win with Jones at QB without a doubt.
They throw a lot more, meaning there's more room for changes in QBR.
Burrow has thrown the ball over six hundred times.
Herbert has thrown the ball 699 times
Jones 472. A lot more can happen in that difference of attempts.
Sure. But imagine if jones could throw the ball to Austin eckler out the backfield for 107 receptions this season? Those are some pretty safe passes.
Contrast that to Barkley, who (i believe) has the most dropped passes this season. (Either for running backs or all receivers, I’m not sure)
Just sayin’
I understand what you're saying, but that's part of the reason the QBR numbers rank a bit lower than Jones, a lot of short passes.
This is the same phenomenon as when Jones was hailed as being the best deep passer rated in the NFL. It was technically true, and also it was on the bare minimum qualifying attempts.
QBs like Rogers were rated lower, but had nearly three times the attempts made.
Better to be very efficient on 60 deep passes rather than being hyper efficient on 20 deep passes a year. There's a lot of line up between teams that have more explosive plays and teams that score more points and win more games.
Don’t disagree that QBR is a flawed stat. But there isn’t a perfect stat out there.
It’s unfathomable to me that there are still people out there who don’t/won’t acknowledge that - by ANY measure - Jones didn’t have great season. The eye test alone should tell people that.
It’s hard for a team to make the playoffs with out your QB having a really really good - if not great - season. Sure it happens - ie, Derrick Henry carrying TEN in the past - but it’s not that common.
Not even Sy thinks he had a great season. What you're beholding isn't uniformly accepted fact. These nasty Jones arguments come from a person or people projecting their view as the obviously correct thing when it's simply not objectively true.
When you consider the weapons he had, the protection he had, it might be an MVP season. He CARRIED us to a number of our wins. Barkley was good too but Jones was more important. Breida and Brightwell had good numbers too.
Keep in mind some of these elite QB's you mention are in systems that play to pass.
Plenty of times these teams with "elite" QB's have met their fate in the playoffs when they meet those "elite" D's. If in its own conference playoffs it has happened plenty in SB's.
AFC has traditionally been the conference of the bigger stat QB's over many decades. Often the other side is impacted by it.
One of reasons Cincy advanced last year is they bring it on the other side.
agree on the former but not the later. With out personnel the running was critical and outside of the top passers in the league, there aren’t many who’d be able to make up for it without running. Your boy Jimmy G, for example, wouldnt be able to be effective with this personnel IMO, and that’s if he even lasts the season.
I did not include JimG in my grouping.
I could see the following doing what Jones did or >:
I am very tempted, too, to throw my other boy in that mix: Fields.
You lose a lot of credibility in your anti jones argument when you throw names like geno and tannehill into it, and even mentioning fields at this point is a joke. The guys has thrown for 200 yards twice this year with considerably better receivers than the giants have
At 6-1 or 7-2, I said winning was not sustainable, and they would not win 12-14 games. I also predicted 9 wins at that point, with a shot at 10 if they didn't beat themselves.
They finished 9-7-1, I wasn't really off target with the not sustainable observation.
Jones had a good season, he cleaned up his ball security for the most part, his decision making improved, pocket awareness was better, he stepped up big in some spots, he played plus QB in the system built around what he does well.
He wasn't "great", that's a term fans tend to use very loosely. He's ascending, and there's still a significant hill to climb to reach where many believe he is now. He's a ~15 QB in the NFL now. That's not where I would decide it's wise to spend $35M per and put my job on the line, but we'll see what they decide, and then we'll see if it was the right decision down the road.
Fair enough about the record dropping down the stretch. This has more to do with the persistent LOS issue than Jones imv and that has to be factored in.
Mostly division games but also Detroit and Seattle off the top of my head.
Jones was part of this at times but often it was the WR's and OL more in the fault factor imv.
I agree about the greatness. Very solid season and curious to see next progression.
You lose a lot of credibility in your anti jones argument when you throw names like geno and tannehill into it, and even mentioning fields at this point is a joke. The guys has thrown for 200 yards twice this year with considerably better receivers than the giants have
It's analyzing the Daboll/Kafka system and the skills that made it work. I can't stand Geno; but, JFC, he had a fabulous year in Seattle. Why is it incredible to think he could not perform here?
The Bears offense is the worst in football when you factor in OL, receivers, RBs, coaches, etc. Fields had a phenomenal year running. He is a big athlete with a great arm who just needs a better organization. So, I have no problem thinking in better hands he could excel.
I get it if you disagree because this is subjective. But if we gave Jones the "Four Year NFL Plan", I am signing Fields up for the same and declaring it's far too early to claim he's a bust.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I’m not saying DJ is best qb in football
When you consider the weapons he had, the protection he had, it might be an MVP season. He CARRIED us to a number of our wins. Barkley was good too but Jones was more important. Breida and Brightwell had good numbers too.
MVP of the Giants or the NFL?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I’m not saying DJ is best qb in football
When you consider the weapons he had, the protection he had, it might be an MVP season. He CARRIED us to a number of our wins. Barkley was good too but Jones was more important. Breida and Brightwell had good numbers too.
So now DJ had a great season according to you. Got it. I just said he did a lot of great things in it.
I also said it is idiotic to compare to other QB's without also including the variables and situation of that QB so one can make a better assessment.
Whether or not Jones will be great with different expectations based off talent is TBD but for me I think he has a good chance to take another big step with the right variables in place. That is JS/BD to figure out.
I will say the things he was asked and relied to do were not always easy and often under a lot of stress. Those things to translate.
I don't need analytics to tell me this.
Dude, you jumped into an argument I was having with Carl that stemmed from him saying the words, "[DJ's] numbers are great."
Everything I wrote on the topic after that was a response to that sentence. You seem to be taking the conversation in a different direction and interpreting anything I've said as being inconsistent with what you're saying.
Here's what I am saying, for absolute clarity:
Leaving aside the context in which the numbers were compiled, because the statistics themselves are context-agnostic, if you were to categorize DJ's statistics alone as "great" (as in, "his numbers are great."), then you are, by inclusion, effectively stating that almost every single starting QB in the NFL has great numbers.
It is a completely different conversation to discuss DJ's value to the Giants, and by extension, the Giants' success as a result of DJ's development this year. Likewise, it is a completely different conversation to discuss the ways in which DJ has been great within the confines of an offensive system that is working successfully for the Giants. I am not arguing either of those points, though you seem to keep replying as though I am.
I am only arguing the former point, which was Carl's statement that DJ's "numbers are great." They aren't great, objectively speaking.
DJ doesn't need to be prolific as a passer for the Giants to win this season, as presently constructed. He may need to in the future as the team continues to evolve, but we have no way of knowing that right now, and it's not what I'm suggesting.
I'm merely saying that when you look at QB numbers in the NFL, and without any sort of breakdown or analysis, you simply look at the league leaders across the common quarterback passing stats, you can quickly identify the handful of QBs in any era that are putting up great numbers for that era. If you came here from outer space (which, for some BBI posters, would explain some things), and someone pulled up the individual passing stats on NFL.com, you'd probably be able to identify a handful of QBs that pretty much every football fan would agree has great numbers.
And then there are some who have misleading numbers - some have numbers that are inflated (maybe the QB is on an awful team, always playing from behind, facing garbage-time defenses, etc.); some have numbers that are deflated (maybe the QB is on a run-first team that has iffy receivers and some pass protection issues on the OL) - and for those, the context matters a lot. But once you're into the "context matters" category, you're out of the "objectively great" category, IMO.
You can win championships in the "context matters" category, for the record. That's where most champions come from, IMO. Or at least the Giants' championships do.
At 6-1 or 7-2, I said winning was not sustainable, and they would not win 12-14 games. I also predicted 9 wins at that point, with a shot at 10 if they didn't beat themselves.
They finished 9-7-1, I wasn't really off target with the not sustainable observation.
Jones had a good season, he cleaned up his ball security for the most part, his decision making improved, pocket awareness was better, he stepped up big in some spots, he played plus QB in the system built around what he does well.
He wasn't "great", that's a term fans tend to use very loosely. He's ascending, and there's still a significant hill to climb to reach where many believe he is now. He's a ~15 QB in the NFL now. That's not where I would decide it's wise to spend $35M per and put my job on the line, but we'll see what they decide, and then we'll see if it was the right decision down the road.
Well said. Are the Giants an ~average team that had some luck/great coaching that pushed them to a playoff spot or do they have an ascending core that needs another year of marinating to get to championship contention?
I personally think we have below average to average talent. Teams with this talent level make the playoffs from time to time but don't make it every year. I think a lot of the current Jones debate revolves around this question.
RE: Let me use the word great in the proper context here...
Jones has a great season running the ball. No doubt.
Jones did not have a great season passing the ball. It was solid season for sure.
If you don’t think he had a great season throwing the ball, you’re lost.
That’s not to say he had “great” season stats throwing the ball. But considering his talent level, he did very well. The reads, progressions, decision making, etc
agree on the former but not the later. With out personnel the running was critical and outside of the top passers in the league, there aren’t many who’d be able to make up for it without running. Your boy Jimmy G, for example, wouldnt be able to be effective with this personnel IMO, and that’s if he even lasts the season.
I did not include JimG in my grouping.
I could see the following doing what Jones did or >:
Is fucking ridiculous. Jones was clearly better than both this season.
That’s not even debatable.
Actually including Lawrence is debatable. And LJAX, only because he missed 6 games. Being available/healthy matters. This is the 2nd season in a row that he’s missed 5+ games.
At 6-1 or 7-2, I said winning was not sustainable, and they would not win 12-14 games. I also predicted 9 wins at that point, with a shot at 10 if they didn't beat themselves.
They finished 9-7-1, I wasn't really off target with the not sustainable observation.
Jones had a good season, he cleaned up his ball security for the most part, his decision making improved, pocket awareness was better, he stepped up big in some spots, he played plus QB in the system built around what he does well.
He wasn't "great", that's a term fans tend to use very loosely. He's ascending, and there's still a significant hill to climb to reach where many believe he is now. He's a ~15 QB in the NFL now. That's not where I would decide it's wise to spend $35M per and put my job on the line, but we'll see what they decide, and then we'll see if it was the right decision down the road.
You also said this was a 3-4 win team, several years away from competing, to be fair and transparent. :)
RE: And including tannehill and Wilson in that group
Is fucking ridiculous. Jones was clearly better than both this season.
That’s not even debatable.
It's not about who had the better year. My point was which QBs can do just as well as Jones with under Daboll/Kafka.
I am taking a leap of faith with Wilson that he just had a bad experience in Denver. It's an outlier year. If he stinks it up again in '23, I will be ready to say he's hit the wall.
Tannehill missed 5 games. It may be a stretch to include him, but he's got similar skills to Jones.
RE: RE: And including tannehill and Wilson in that group
Is fucking ridiculous. Jones was clearly better than both this season.
That’s not even debatable.
Actually including Lawrence is debatable. And LJAX, only because he missed 6 games. Being available/healthy matters. This is the 2nd season in a row that he’s missed 5+ games.
That's very funny. LJax and Lawrence would have no problems doing what is asked of Jones. They have the right tools.
At 6-1 or 7-2, I said winning was not sustainable, and they would not win 12-14 games. I also predicted 9 wins at that point, with a shot at 10 if they didn't beat themselves.
They finished 9-7-1, I wasn't really off target with the not sustainable observation.
Jones had a good season, he cleaned up his ball security for the most part, his decision making improved, pocket awareness was better, he stepped up big in some spots, he played plus QB in the system built around what he does well.
He wasn't "great", that's a term fans tend to use very loosely. He's ascending, and there's still a significant hill to climb to reach where many believe he is now. He's a ~15 QB in the NFL now. That's not where I would decide it's wise to spend $35M per and put my job on the line, but we'll see what they decide, and then we'll see if it was the right decision down the road.
You also said this was a 3-4 win team, several years away from competing, to be fair and transparent. :)
To be fair, if we’re going to knock people’s preseason predictions for this year, we should go back to the past couple of years as well. Many who are crowing about how right they were this year were most likely terribly off in the past couple. FTR, I had them at 7-10, I’m thrilled to be wrong.
RE: RE: Let me use the word great in the proper context here...
At 6-1 or 7-2, I said winning was not sustainable, and they would not win 12-14 games. I also predicted 9 wins at that point, with a shot at 10 if they didn't beat themselves.
They finished 9-7-1, I wasn't really off target with the not sustainable observation.
Jones had a good season, he cleaned up his ball security for the most part, his decision making improved, pocket awareness was better, he stepped up big in some spots, he played plus QB in the system built around what he does well.
He wasn't "great", that's a term fans tend to use very loosely. He's ascending, and there's still a significant hill to climb to reach where many believe he is now. He's a ~15 QB in the NFL now. That's not where I would decide it's wise to spend $35M per and put my job on the line, but we'll see what they decide, and then we'll see if it was the right decision down the road.
You also said this was a 3-4 win team, several years away from competing, to be fair and transparent. :)
Haha, yep. I love JonC but he has patted himself on the back on numerous threads recently that he told us all winning wasn’t sustainable playing the way they were. I think most people with a brain knew it wasn’t sustainable so I’m not sure why he keeps telling us that he told us so. Seems like a weird thing to be looking to get credit for, honestly
RE: RE: RE: And including tannehill and Wilson in that group
Is fucking ridiculous. Jones was clearly better than both this season.
That’s not even debatable.
Actually including Lawrence is debatable. And LJAX, only because he missed 6 games. Being available/healthy matters. This is the 2nd season in a row that he’s missed 5+ games.
That's very funny. LJax and Lawrence would have no problems doing what is asked of Jones. They have the right tools.
I’m not sold on Lawrence yet. But re LJAX - as i said, availability matters. Who cares if he has the right tools but only has plays 11-12 games per season?
Even you can admit health matters.
Re Lawrence - he’s only had one good year. Jury is still out.
At 6-1 or 7-2, I said winning was not sustainable, and they would not win 12-14 games. I also predicted 9 wins at that point, with a shot at 10 if they didn't beat themselves.
They finished 9-7-1, I wasn't really off target with the not sustainable observation.
Jones had a good season, he cleaned up his ball security for the most part, his decision making improved, pocket awareness was better, he stepped up big in some spots, he played plus QB in the system built around what he does well.
He wasn't "great", that's a term fans tend to use very loosely. He's ascending, and there's still a significant hill to climb to reach where many believe he is now. He's a ~15 QB in the NFL now. That's not where I would decide it's wise to spend $35M per and put my job on the line, but we'll see what they decide, and then we'll see if it was the right decision down the road.
You also said this was a 3-4 win team, several years away from competing, to be fair and transparent. :)
To be fair, if we’re going to knock people’s preseason predictions for this year, we should go back to the past couple of years as well. Many who are crowing about how right they were this year were most likely terribly off in the past couple. FTR, I had them at 7-10, I’m thrilled to be wrong.
Not knocking it at all, just pointing it out for completeness.. We all have been wrong through the years
RE: RE: And including tannehill and Wilson in that group
Is fucking ridiculous. Jones was clearly better than both this season.
That’s not even debatable.
It's not about who had the better year. My point was which QBs can do just as well as Jones with under Daboll/Kafka.
I am taking a leap of faith with Wilson that he just had a bad experience in Denver. It's an outlier year. If he stinks it up again in '23, I will be ready to say he's hit the wall.
Tannehill missed 5 games. It may be a stretch to include him, but he's got similar skills to Jones.
I don’t care that RT has missed 5 games, Jones is more talented than him (overall). Not a question
RE: RE: RE: RE: And including tannehill and Wilson in that group
Is fucking ridiculous. Jones was clearly better than both this season.
That’s not even debatable.
Actually including Lawrence is debatable. And LJAX, only because he missed 6 games. Being available/healthy matters. This is the 2nd season in a row that he’s missed 5+ games.
That's very funny. LJax and Lawrence would have no problems doing what is asked of Jones. They have the right tools.
I’m not sold on Lawrence yet. But re LJAX - as i said, availability matters. Who cares if he has the right tools but only has plays 11-12 games per season?
Even you can admit health matters.
Re Lawrence - he’s only had one good year. Jury is still out.
Lol. You are not sold on Lawrence but you are sold on Jones? If we are talking about only one good year, isn't the jury still out on Jones?
At 6-1 or 7-2, I said winning was not sustainable, and they would not win 12-14 games. I also predicted 9 wins at that point, with a shot at 10 if they didn't beat themselves.
They finished 9-7-1, I wasn't really off target with the not sustainable observation.
Jones had a good season, he cleaned up his ball security for the most part, his decision making improved, pocket awareness was better, he stepped up big in some spots, he played plus QB in the system built around what he does well.
He wasn't "great", that's a term fans tend to use very loosely. He's ascending, and there's still a significant hill to climb to reach where many believe he is now. He's a ~15 QB in the NFL now. That's not where I would decide it's wise to spend $35M per and put my job on the line, but we'll see what they decide, and then we'll see if it was the right decision down the road.
You also said this was a 3-4 win team, several years away from competing, to be fair and transparent. :)
That was 2021, I predicted 6 wins thus season. Grin
At 6-1 or 7-2, I said winning was not sustainable, and they would not win 12-14 games. I also predicted 9 wins at that point, with a shot at 10 if they didn't beat themselves.
They finished 9-7-1, I wasn't really off target with the not sustainable observation.
Jones had a good season, he cleaned up his ball security for the most part, his decision making improved, pocket awareness was better, he stepped up big in some spots, he played plus QB in the system built around what he does well.
He wasn't "great", that's a term fans tend to use very loosely. He's ascending, and there's still a significant hill to climb to reach where many believe he is now. He's a ~15 QB in the NFL now. That's not where I would decide it's wise to spend $35M per and put my job on the line, but we'll see what they decide, and then we'll see if it was the right decision down the road.
You also said this was a 3-4 win team, several years away from competing, to be fair and transparent. :)
That was 2021, I predicted 6 wins thus season. Grin
Is fucking ridiculous. Jones was clearly better than both this season.
That’s not even debatable.
Actually including Lawrence is debatable. And LJAX, only because he missed 6 games. Being available/healthy matters. This is the 2nd season in a row that he’s missed 5+ games.
That's very funny. LJax and Lawrence would have no problems doing what is asked of Jones. They have the right tools.
I’m not sold on Lawrence yet. But re LJAX - as i said, availability matters. Who cares if he has the right tools but only has plays 11-12 games per season?
Even you can admit health matters.
Re Lawrence - he’s only had one good year. Jury is still out.
Lol. You are not sold on Lawrence but you are sold on Jones? If we are talking about only one good year, isn't the jury still out on Jones?
Jones had a good rookie year. Then judge/Garett took over and fucked everything they touched.
Lawrence had bad coaching last year, but jones had two years of judge/Garrett .which i would argue were worse than one year of urban meyer
Is fucking ridiculous. Jones was clearly better than both this season.
That’s not even debatable.
Actually including Lawrence is debatable. And LJAX, only because he missed 6 games. Being available/healthy matters. This is the 2nd season in a row that he’s missed 5+ games.
That's very funny. LJax and Lawrence would have no problems doing what is asked of Jones. They have the right tools.
I’m not sold on Lawrence yet. But re LJAX - as i said, availability matters. Who cares if he has the right tools but only has plays 11-12 games per season?
Even you can admit health matters.
Re Lawrence - he’s only had one good year. Jury is still out.
Lol. You are not sold on Lawrence but you are sold on Jones? If we are talking about only one good year, isn't the jury still out on Jones?
Jones had a good rookie year. Then judge/Garett took over and fucked everything they touched.
Lawrence had bad coaching last year, but jones had two years of judge/Garrett .which i would argue were worse than one year of urban meyer
He did not have a good rookie year. He had a few monster games against dogshit defenses. He was 2nd in the NFL in turnovers and fumbled 18 times.
Let's see what kind of coin DJ gets before people start freaking out.
Maybe I have an “advantage” over some fans here. I have faith that whatever monies that will be paid to DJ, Schoen will feel comfortable enough to STILL be able to sign others already here or around the league, without jeopardizing the team build at all..
Let's see what kind of coin DJ gets before people start freaking out.
Maybe I have an “advantage” over some fans here. I have faith that whatever monies that will be paid to DJ, Schoen will feel comfortable enough to STILL be able to sign others already here or around the league, without jeopardizing the team build at all..
Some worry too much
I'm right there with you.
If he get's $40, he get's $40. IMV, Schoen will have a plan to improve the team and he will do it with the long game in mind.
Let's see what kind of coin DJ gets before people start freaking out.
Maybe I have an “advantage” over some fans here. I have faith that whatever monies that will be paid to DJ, Schoen will feel comfortable enough to STILL be able to sign others already here or around the league, without jeopardizing the team build at all..
Some worry too much
I'm right there with you.
If he get's $40, he get's $40. IMV, Schoen will have a plan to improve the team and he will do it with the long game in mind.
He gave us an inkling of how it will be, when he refused to kick the can down the road this year, stayed his intended course and signed lesser tier players who got us where we are today..
Whatever DJ signs for will not hurt us, imho
RE: Btw, things settling down, getting more sleep?
Let's see what kind of coin DJ gets before people start freaking out.
Maybe I have an “advantage” over some fans here. I have faith that whatever monies that will be paid to DJ, Schoen will feel comfortable enough to STILL be able to sign others already here or around the league, without jeopardizing the team build at all..
Some worry too much
I'm right there with you.
If he get's $40, he get's $40. IMV, Schoen will have a plan to improve the team and he will do it with the long game in mind.
If he gets 40, it will be structured so that the first few years won't prevent them from being able to sign some weapons
the giants want to structure in a way that its essentially a 3yr guaranteed(ish) deal with 2 team option years at the end.. which is why its being rumored as a 3 or 4 year deal. djs team wants more security in year 4
also told its very very close, but likely wouldnt get reported until next week even if its done now
Doesn't it count against the 2022 cap or is that over and it goes towards 2023?
Normally I’d question how plugged in he is to all things Giants, BUT this would be an odd thing to stick his neck out over. He’s been at FAN and on CBS for nearly 20 years, he’s bound to have some inside contacts.
Yes, he is a self righteous jackass. I don't think he has any ties to the Giants org. Maybe Simms said something to him.
Please don't shoot the messenger. I thought it might be important to the board to know this was reported.
Doesn't it count against the 2022 cap or is that over and it goes towards 2023?
The 2022 season is over, why would a new contract be applied to it? Any postseason payments are determined by the NFL, they aren’t contractual (other than playoff bonuses).
Quote:
Why do it now?
Doesn't it count against the 2022 cap or is that over and it goes towards 2023?
The 2022 season is over, why would a new contract be applied to it? Any postseason payments are determined by the NFL, they aren’t contractual (other than playoff bonuses).
I thought the season actually ends the day after the Superbowl?
When you go to over the cap it brings you right to the 2023 page.
Doesn't it count against the 2022 cap or is that over and it goes towards 2023?
Didn’t Simms say the same thing a few weeks ago?
Not even a report. Schoen said it himself publicly
Quote:
Why do it now?
Doesn't it count against the 2022 cap or is that over and it goes towards 2023?
Didn’t Simms say the same thing a few weeks ago?
I think he said they wanted to keep DJ and Barkley. Nothing about a contract.
Isn't this kind of a distraction before the playoffs?
I don't see 35 mill. a year for Jones. He's not a top 5 QB.
I know salaries have gone through the roof with QB's, but still...
Link - ( New Window )
The question is, guarantees and length..
This seems fair given the current pay rate for QB’s. If I were Jones I would maybe want go gamble a bit on myself and see what this playoff run looks like before signing anything. If he plays well and they make some improbable SB run he would be in line for a bigger deal.
They are always escalating. I think it will be between 35 and 40...unless they load it up with escalators. Term is relatively irrelevant. I imagine it will be a 4 year deal that the Giants can get out of after 3.
Quote:
It would be awesome to see them agree on a 3 or 4 year deal averaging about $35 million per year.
.
I don't see 35 mill. a year for Jones. He's not a top 5 QB.
I know salaries have gone through the roof with QB's, but still...
That’s how it goes though. The next guy will get even more. As long as the cap keeps rising and the league continues to push the passing game QB salaries will get higher and higher. I mean look at Kyler Murray, do you think he’s worth what he just got? Wait until Hurts’ contract is up. He’s nothing special, but I’m sure he’ll get $40 per.
It might have cost us multiple high picks to trade up. Expecting to get a franchise QB near the bottom of the first and later, would be a major gamble. Yeah, it can happen, but the odds of failure are much higher than the odds of success.
Sure they can. The CBA allows bonuses to be amortized on a 5-year schedule. If the Giants sign Jones to a 3-year deal, and they need cap relief they will add 1 or 2 void years. If years 4 & 5 of the agreement are just a place to park guarantees, there's no difference.
The reason the Giants should push for a longer agreement is to actually have the right to keep Jones for longer if he's playing well.
Quote:
In comment 15985095 Tom from LI said:
Quote:
Why do it now?
Doesn't it count against the 2022 cap or is that over and it goes towards 2023?
Didn’t Simms say the same thing a few weeks ago?
I think he said they wanted to keep DJ and Barkley. Nothing about a contract.
Isn't this kind of a distraction before the playoffs?
He definitely mentioned a contract and that 3 or 4 years was the negotiating point that they were at.
Paying him like a top 10 QB is very risky.
Quote:
which will allow them to get out after 3 with some dead cap. If it’s a 3 year deal, they can’t do much to lower the cap burden if they want to build a strong team that can compete.
Sure they can. The CBA allows bonuses to be amortized on a 5-year schedule. If the Giants sign Jones to a 3-year deal, and they need cap relief they will add 1 or 2 void years. If years 4 & 5 of the agreement are just a place to park guarantees, there's no difference.
The reason the Giants should push for a longer agreement is to actually have the right to keep Jones for longer if he's playing well.
It he get 3 years and turns out to be the real deal, he's gonna make a bundle at age 28 with his next deal. Maybe the Giants can stretch to 5 years with voidable years, or at least a cheap out.
Doesn't it count against the 2022 cap or is that over and it goes towards 2023?
It doesn't have to count against 2022 at all, and shouldn't, because there isn't any 2022 money left on DJ's current deal to manipulate anyway.
Exactly. Otherwise, Team Jones shouldn't be engaged in any talks. I have a feeling it's going be 3yrs/$120M, at least $80M guaranteed.
I still say - assuming this plays out as reported by Esiason - the wisest move is the FT and make Jones prove this year wasn't an outlier.
Quote:
In comment 15985095 Tom from LI said:
Quote:
Why do it now?
Doesn't it count against the 2022 cap or is that over and it goes towards 2023?
The 2022 season is over, why would a new contract be applied to it? Any postseason payments are determined by the NFL, they aren’t contractual (other than playoff bonuses).
I thought the season actually ends the day after the Superbowl?
When you go to over the cap it brings you right to the 2023 page.
The league year concludes after the Super Bowl, but player contracts are prorated across the regular season only (except for expressly stated playoff bonus incentives, which would have been categorized as NLTBE for any Giants contracts in 2022 anyway). So for contract extension purposes, 2022 is over. For contract expiration purposes, 2022 ends with the conclusion of the league year after the Super Bowl.
The league year ends and starts on March 15. I don't think it matters when a deal is reached, rather it matters when it's signed. A contract doesn't take effect until it is signed. On the other hand, it might be possible that signing it now might be beneficial to the team down the road if some of the bonus money were counted against 2022.
As someone who covered the Bengals part time when Esiason was drafted, he was fun to work with. But you kind of got the feeling he might be someone that would end up with an oversized ego. Never got that sense with Collinsworth. He was always fun and self-deprecating. Just a guy who enjoyed what he was doing.
Huh? They did work on Barkley and Love during the bye week, which was widely reported.
Quote:
which will allow them to get out after 3 with some dead cap. If it’s a 3 year deal, they can’t do much to lower the cap burden if they want to build a strong team that can compete.
Sure they can. The CBA allows bonuses to be amortized on a 5-year schedule. If the Giants sign Jones to a 3-year deal, and they need cap relief they will add 1 or 2 void years. If years 4 & 5 of the agreement are just a place to park guarantees, there's no difference.
The reason the Giants should push for a longer agreement is to actually have the right to keep Jones for longer if he's playing well.
As GY used to say, “when they tell you it’s not about the money, it’s about the money.” If there are EXCEPTIONS and there are occasionally, DJ would be one of them, imo
Quote:
It would be awesome to see them agree on a 3 or 4 year deal averaging about $35 million per year.
.
I don't see 35 mill. a year for Jones. He's not a top 5 QB.
I know salaries have gone through the roof with QB's, but still...
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
$35M is not top-5 QB money. It's closer to midlevel established veteran starting QB money.
$45M+ is top-5 QB money.
Quote:
We wouldn't have to waste a first or second rounder on a potential QB of the future and can use it to upgrade our WR, ILB or CB corps.
It might have cost us multiple high picks to trade up. Expecting to get a franchise QB near the bottom of the first and later, would be a major gamble. Yeah, it can happen, but the odds of failure are much higher than the odds of success.
It is a big gamble at every point in the draft, even the 1st overall. It just gets bigger the further down you get. Hitting on a QB with a top 5 pick probably starts at 1 in 4 and gets worse from there.
And 100% guaranteed, right?
Or are you already backing off that prediction like you did your 4y/$100M contract that DJ was going to accept because he's a swell guy who loves being your favorite player?
Quote:
In comment 15985095 Tom from LI said:
Quote:
Why do it now?
Doesn't it count against the 2022 cap or is that over and it goes towards 2023?
The 2022 season is over, why would a new contract be applied to it? Any postseason payments are determined by the NFL, they aren’t contractual (other than playoff bonuses).
I thought the season actually ends the day after the Superbowl?
When you go to over the cap it brings you right to the 2023 page.
It would be an extension meaning this year stays as is so it wouldn’t start till next season
Quote:
In comment 15985104 Rick in Dallas said:
Quote:
It would be awesome to see them agree on a 3 or 4 year deal averaging about $35 million per year.
.
I don't see 35 mill. a year for Jones. He's not a top 5 QB.
I know salaries have gone through the roof with QB's, but still...
That’s how it goes though. The next guy will get even more. As long as the cap keeps rising and the league continues to push the passing game QB salaries will get higher and higher. I mean look at Kyler Murray, do you think he’s worth what he just got? Wait until Hurts’ contract is up. He’s nothing special, but I’m sure he’ll get $40 per.
Hurts isn't getting less than Murray. Hurts will be in the $50M tier (or very close to it) simply as a function of timing (his contract will be signed after Murray's) and production (his numbers are better than Murray's).
It feels like some are lagging on the QB market. $40M isn't even a top-tier benchmark anymore. That would represent a cut below the top QB group right now, and the market is going to keep inflating, at least at the top end.
I don't think it's complicated, a cap-inflated version of whatever Goff and Wentz signed recently. I would be surpised if he got or held out for something in the Kyler territory.
I would be shocked if Team Jones signs that. That would be a very magnanimous gesture by them.
Please don't shoot the messenger. I thought it might be important to the board to know this was reported.
I heard it and was thinking about posting, but didn’t because I knew how it would be received.
But I think it s probably more likely to be true than not
Quote:
With $60 million guaranteed and a voidable 3rd year if Jones regresses
I would be shocked if Team Jones signs that. That would be a very magnanimous gesture by them.
That’s just my best guess at what Schoen is thinking. Maybe 3 years, 100M with 70 million guaranteed tops from the front office. Jones’ team probably wants more years
Quote:
In comment 15985185 giantBCP said:
Quote:
which will allow them to get out after 3 with some dead cap. If it’s a 3 year deal, they can’t do much to lower the cap burden if they want to build a strong team that can compete.
Sure they can. The CBA allows bonuses to be amortized on a 5-year schedule. If the Giants sign Jones to a 3-year deal, and they need cap relief they will add 1 or 2 void years. If years 4 & 5 of the agreement are just a place to park guarantees, there's no difference.
The reason the Giants should push for a longer agreement is to actually have the right to keep Jones for longer if he's playing well.
It he get 3 years and turns out to be the real deal, he's gonna make a bundle at age 28 with his next deal. Maybe the Giants can stretch to 5 years with voidable years, or at least a cheap out.
If he signs a 4 or 5 year deal and plays well the next two, he’s not playing on a discount years 3-5. The deal will be redone.
This could have been done by the Giants and a possible motive is there is a disagreement on some aspects of a longer deal. Then a tag comes after the season.
Or it is nothing at all.
Paying him like a top 10 QB is very risky.
LOL, he's looked good in many more games than the Colts.
Quote:
With $60 million guaranteed and a voidable 3rd year if Jones regresses
I would be shocked if Team Jones signs that. That would be a very magnanimous gesture by them.
I agree. A lot of middling QBs out there making more than that. Why would Jones give the Giants some kind of deep discount or very team friendly terms?
I'm sure Jones sees value in sticking as he's finally with a coaching staff that has a clue. But after the stupid money recently thrown at Deshaun Watson, Kyler Murray and Russell Wilson, (not to mention Carr, Stafford, Cousins, Goff, Wentz, Ryan and Tannehill making more that $30K per year avg), no way his agent lets him agree to a big discount
IF they truly want him for the medium term, 35 mil/yr is going to be the bottom end of the 'reasonable deal' spectrum.
The sooner Giants know whether they can re-sign DJ, the sooner they can plan the offseason, including the tampering all teams do investigating potential vet replacement.
Quote:
In comment 15985288 dpinzow said:
Quote:
With $60 million guaranteed and a voidable 3rd year if Jones regresses
I would be shocked if Team Jones signs that. That would be a very magnanimous gesture by them.
I agree. A lot of middling QBs out there making more than that. Why would Jones give the Giants some kind of deep discount or very team friendly terms?
I'm sure Jones sees value in sticking as he's finally with a coaching staff that has a clue. But after the stupid money recently thrown at Deshaun Watson, Kyler Murray and Russell Wilson, (not to mention Carr, Stafford, Cousins, Goff, Wentz, Ryan and Tannehill making more that $30K per year avg), no way his agent lets him agree to a big discount
I'm not sure this is a good case for signing Jones. You name a plethora of QB's, some of which are better than Jones and deserve to be paid more:
Watson, Stafford, Cousins, Goff and possibly Tannehill.
You also mentioned older QB's that have a big history in the NFL and are well into their careers:
Wilson, Carr, Matt Ryan.
Then you mention QB's that are way overpaid and holding back their teams:
Wentz and Murray
People are getting a little out of hand about Jones. I get that he's improving and has room to grow and that is certainly worth something, but he's still a risk to sign at big money. Pretending like he's owed more than everyone on this list or even near the top is dangerous, IMO.
I'm not sure this is a good case for signing Jones. You name a plethora of QB's, some of which are better than Jones and deserve to be paid more:
Watson, Stafford, Cousins, Goff and possibly Tannehill.
Oh FFS - Tannehill is not better than Jones.
Quote:
I'm not sure this is a good case for signing Jones. You name a plethora of QB's, some of which are better than Jones and deserve to be paid more:
Watson, Stafford, Cousins, Goff and possibly Tannehill.
Oh FFS - Tannehill is not better than Jones.
To be fair, I said possibly Tannehill, but it's definitely worthy of a discussion. Lotta projecting with Jones, whereas tannehill has a history. In 2020 Tannehill accounted for 40 TD's. In comparison, Jones accounted for 22 this year.
Giants / Jones close - ( New Window )
Paying him like a top 10 QB is very risky.
Was alot more than the Colts game, idiot.
I'd think most QB's these days play out their contracts, so comparing average AAV is probably the best way to do it, IMO.
Quote:
I'm not sure this is a good case for signing Jones. You name a plethora of QB's, some of which are better than Jones and deserve to be paid more:
Watson, Stafford, Cousins, Goff and possibly Tannehill.
Oh FFS - Tannehill is not better than Jones.
Tannehill is not better than Jones, at Jones' best. Tannehill has been more consistently good than Jones, though. Tannehill has a lot more on his résumé than Jones.
Tannehill is actually a really good comp for Jones. You can hope Jones is better, but the most I could say right now is he's shown he can be AS GOOD AS Tannehill, if he can build on his recent successes and be consistent.
Who is better (RIght now) on that list other than Josh Allen? Who? After Josh I don’t see anyone that is significantly better.
Quote:
Did a victory lap because he looked good beating the Colts. The Colts.
Paying him like a top 10 QB is very risky.
Was alot more than the Colts game, idiot.
Oh yeah? What else? Was it the whopping 15 TD passes in 16 games? Is it his 3200 yards passing (15th)? I mean, he's so elite, I know... I'm just an idiot here, expecting elite production from our elite player.
Because Murray and Watson make $46M AAV each and he has looked better than both of them.
$50M is only a trophy AAV one time, and then it becomes a benchmark. Rodgers bagged the $50M trophy, and now the next set of franchise QBs to get paid (Herbert, Burrow, Hurts, Jackson... DJ in 2024 if tagged for 2023?) are all likely to land at or near the $50M level.
You can make a case for Hurts to be beneath that tier (just like one could note reasons for reservation with DJ's upcoming price), but I really think Murray's contract is going to be a troublesome comp for GMs across the league to contend with. I would be surprised if Jim Denton isn't using Murray's contract to DJ's advantage while negotiating with Schoen; why wouldn't Hurts's agent do the same with Roseman (and Hurts shares the same style of play as Murray, but is arguably better at it)?
Link - ( New Window )
The QB market is what it is. You're not going to get Jones for cheap, too many teams would love to get him at $40 million (Washington, for example). I'm sure Schoen will set up the contract so we can sign other players as well.
Look at the overall QB market. You have a LOT of teams that are desperate for a competent QB, and a lot of QB's that are over paid. People on BBI may not like Jones, but GM's who need to keep their jobs are going to over pay for talent at that position.
Quote:
Who is better (RIght now) on that list other than Josh Allen? Who? After Josh I don’t see anyone that is significantly better.
So what kind of contract terms would you offer DJ this offseason, Carl? I'm not sure you've ever answered that question. It should be simple enough, since you've never had a doubt about DJ from the very start.
It's easy to wave the pom-poms until the rubber meets the road. What's the contract you'd offer?
4 years/120 million with 90 million gtd. If not, FT him.
He hasn't proven a damn thing to who?
Tuck and the Giants reached agreement Thursday on a five-year contract extension that runs through the 2013 season, has a maximum value of $30 million, and includes $16 million in bonuses. Barring any last-minute glitches, the final details of the deal will be completed on Friday and the contract will be officially executed.
Good things.
Quote:
In comment 15985317 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15985288 dpinzow said:
Quote:
With $60 million guaranteed and a voidable 3rd year if Jones regresses
I would be shocked if Team Jones signs that. That would be a very magnanimous gesture by them.
I agree. A lot of middling QBs out there making more than that. Why would Jones give the Giants some kind of deep discount or very team friendly terms?
I'm sure Jones sees value in sticking as he's finally with a coaching staff that has a clue. But after the stupid money recently thrown at Deshaun Watson, Kyler Murray and Russell Wilson, (not to mention Carr, Stafford, Cousins, Goff, Wentz, Ryan and Tannehill making more that $30K per year avg), no way his agent lets him agree to a big discount
I'm not sure this is a good case for signing Jones. You name a plethora of QB's, some of which are better than Jones and deserve to be paid more:
Watson, Stafford, Cousins, Goff and possibly Tannehill.
You also mentioned older QB's that have a big history in the NFL and are well into their careers:
Wilson, Carr, Matt Ryan.
Then you mention QB's that are way overpaid and holding back their teams:
Wentz and Murray
People are getting a little out of hand about Jones. I get that he's improving and has room to grow and that is certainly worth something, but he's still a risk to sign at big money. Pretending like he's owed more than everyone on this list or even near the top is dangerous, IMO.
I'm not arguing a case for how much we want to pay him or that he deserves more than those guys, I'm making the point we're not likely to get him for much less than a lot of those guys. That's the market for QBs these days.
So by implication, will it be dumb if it's not done before the playoff game?
35m is not unheard of money for a QB, I would be more concerned with # of years. It's not justifiable to hand out a long term deal at this point. It IS justifiable to reward him though.
Quote:
In comment 15985215 GiantBlue said:
Quote:
We wouldn't have to waste a first or second rounder on a potential QB of the future and can use it to upgrade our WR, ILB or CB corps.
It might have cost us multiple high picks to trade up. Expecting to get a franchise QB near the bottom of the first and later, would be a major gamble. Yeah, it can happen, but the odds of failure are much higher than the odds of success.
It is a big gamble at every point in the draft, even the 1st overall. It just gets bigger the further down you get. Hitting on a QB with a top 5 pick probably starts at 1 in 4 and gets worse from there.
Totally agree. I've looked at the numbers and it's not pretty. It just gets uglier after the top of the first. That's why I always disagreed with those who said that it would "be easy to upgrade from Jones".
Even a top 5 draft pick guarantees nothing.
Quote:
before the Playoff game, IMO.
So by implication, will it be dumb if it's not done before the playoff game?
No. There can be neutral too. I wouldn't call it dumb, that's showing a pretty silly understanding of a tough negotiation.
You said he's proven nothing, and are hiding behind stats.
He's proven something to people inside the building. It's posts like yours that cheapen these Jones conversations. We're way past him proving nothing.
Quote:
based on this year?
Because Murray and Watson make $46M AAV each and he has looked better than both of them.
$50M is only a trophy AAV one time, and then it becomes a benchmark. Rodgers bagged the $50M trophy, and now the next set of franchise QBs to get paid (Herbert, Burrow, Hurts, Jackson... DJ in 2024 if tagged for 2023?) are all likely to land at or near the $50M level.
You can make a case for Hurts to be beneath that tier (just like one could note reasons for reservation with DJ's upcoming price), but I really think Murray's contract is going to be a troublesome comp for GMs across the league to contend with. I would be surprised if Jim Denton isn't using Murray's contract to DJ's advantage while negotiating with Schoen; why wouldn't Hurts's agent do the same with Roseman (and Hurts shares the same style of play as Murray, but is arguably better at it)? Link - ( New Window )
At the time Murray signed his deal, he was coming off a 9-5 campaign, 69% passer, just shy of 3800 passing yards, 29 total TDs between passing and rushing, in 14 games. The year prior he was arguably better. And I do NOT think Murray is a QB that a smart team builds around. The contract he received was a colossal mistake for the Cardinals org, and is an albatross.
Watson didn't really have a season this year. But if you are trying to say Jones is better than Watson...Watson got paid based on what he has done from 2018-2020...elite production.
If Jones can give us Watson's WORST statistical season out of that three year stretch, I'd drink his bathwater.
Never mind that none of that shit really matters or that it's all but impossible to truly quantify where Jones "ranks", numerically, nope all that really matters is can we win big and sustain things with Daniel Jones. Much like the only thing that mattered was whether NY could win big and sustain it with Eli Manning, or Phil Simms before him. Eli was never ranked top 5, not until 2011 anyway and even then people probably said he was more top 10, whatever the fuck that even means....
To be blunt, Ranking QBs is fucking stupid. It settles NOTHING. It doesn't prove anything.
Does Jones elevate the offense. Is he merely along for the ride or his he one of the better players on this offense. IS he keeping DC's up at night. Would a less mobile QB be doing more with this offense?
Draw your own conclusions. Getting worked up over whether Jones is or isn't "better" than Fields or Hurts or Cousins or whoever is such a huge waste of time. Is Jones fucking good? Is he capable of winning big games here? THAT is all that matters.
Quote:
In comment 15985384 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
based on this year?
Because Murray and Watson make $46M AAV each and he has looked better than both of them.
$50M is only a trophy AAV one time, and then it becomes a benchmark. Rodgers bagged the $50M trophy, and now the next set of franchise QBs to get paid (Herbert, Burrow, Hurts, Jackson... DJ in 2024 if tagged for 2023?) are all likely to land at or near the $50M level.
You can make a case for Hurts to be beneath that tier (just like one could note reasons for reservation with DJ's upcoming price), but I really think Murray's contract is going to be a troublesome comp for GMs across the league to contend with. I would be surprised if Jim Denton isn't using Murray's contract to DJ's advantage while negotiating with Schoen; why wouldn't Hurts's agent do the same with Roseman (and Hurts shares the same style of play as Murray, but is arguably better at it)? Link - ( New Window )
At the time Murray signed his deal, he was coming off a 9-5 campaign, 69% passer, just shy of 3800 passing yards, 29 total TDs between passing and rushing, in 14 games. The year prior he was arguably better. And I do NOT think Murray is a QB that a smart team builds around. The contract he received was a colossal mistake for the Cardinals org, and is an albatross.
Watson didn't really have a season this year. But if you are trying to say Jones is better than Watson...Watson got paid based on what he has done from 2018-2020...elite production.
If Jones can give us Watson's WORST statistical season out of that three year stretch, I'd drink his bathwater.
Apologies, I noticed you were comparing them to Hurts, not Jones.
Bark and Jones are the NYG offensive identity. PAy them. Then add WRs and OL and let's fucking go.
Remember when people said you can't win with a big time running game? Yea me too...i screamed bullshit then I will remind people we are winning now thanks to that big time running game. Accentuate that. Build on that. Add some better WR talent and OL talent and we can continue to win on the backs of #26 and #8.
OK now I am done.
Really want to keep our guys and have enough left to pick up some mid level players at need positions
As discussed here numerous times, IOL and ILB should be fairly cost effective in FA
With 11 picks including likely comp picks, we should be able to really imprint JS and DB DNA on roster. I would expect a bit of maneuvering in mid rds to get there guy
And yes I have to ask, does a guy like odell make sense in 2023. It’s actually a perfect opportunity for him, he may be more of a complementary piece at this point. But I don’t know if price and team culture fit
So I am not pushing for it but I think it will be explored. Because we look like we can be a contender with this coaching staff and core
Quote:
In comment 15985241 Dr. D said:
Quote:
In comment 15985215 GiantBlue said:
Quote:
We wouldn't have to waste a first or second rounder on a potential QB of the future and can use it to upgrade our WR, ILB or CB corps.
It might have cost us multiple high picks to trade up. Expecting to get a franchise QB near the bottom of the first and later, would be a major gamble. Yeah, it can happen, but the odds of failure are much higher than the odds of success.
It is a big gamble at every point in the draft, even the 1st overall. It just gets bigger the further down you get. Hitting on a QB with a top 5 pick probably starts at 1 in 4 and gets worse from there.
Totally agree. I've looked at the numbers and it's not pretty. It just gets uglier after the top of the first. That's why I always disagreed with those who said that it would "be easy to upgrade from Jones".
Even a top 5 draft pick guarantees nothing.
That's because BBI fundamentally disagrees from one poster to the next about defining what an "upgrade from Jones" means to each person.
I would agree with you that it's no sure thing, even at the top of the draft, to get a QB of Jones's caliber, let alone a sure-fire upgrade in the immediate term (for example, I'd take Trevor Lawrence 10 times out of 10 over Jared Goff, but the latter has better passing numbers in 2022). But I don't think that's the only way to define an "upgrade" in salary cap terms. I think a reasonable case can be made that if you were able to get 75% of DJ's productivity for 25% of DJ's presumed 2023 price tag, that's an opportunity to upgrade to the overall roster if the money is spent wisely elsewhere.
Earlier in the season (and certainly prior to 2022 entirely), getting to 75% of DJ's productivity would not be a difficult task. Even this year, the statistical productivity is not especially difficult to match, so the context of that statement really matters when you bring up the "easy to upgrade from Jones" debates. And it's worth acknowledging that the statistical productivity is not the whole story, and shouldn't be, so I'm not trying to unfairly ding DJ here, for the record.
I'm just not sure why it has always been lost on some (and continues to be) that the arguments we've had for moving on from DJ being an upgrade for the Giants always resided primarily in the ways that Schoen could best spend $30M in cap space, not actually in some sort of certainty that you could just pluck a rookie QB at random from the college ranks and plug him into the Giants' offense without so much as a hiccup.
I said I'd start by offering him 4/100 and he might take it, that was about 6 weeks ago when I first said that. Considering where things stood, I thought that would be a smart offer.
Now - yeah - 3 for 100 and fully guaranteed would actually be a pretty fair deal and one that Jones would probably take as well.
Why are you such an asshole all of the time? My predictions on Jones have largely proven to be accurate. I'm not doing the board any disservice by predicting what he'll sign for. Anything 28-35M per year is fine by me. If he wants 40 per year over 3 years, I'd do that too.
Quote:
In comment 15985537 mittenedman said:
Quote:
before the Playoff game, IMO.
So by implication, will it be dumb if it's not done before the playoff game?
No. There can be neutral too. I wouldn't call it dumb, that's showing a pretty silly understanding of a tough negotiation.
I also don't think that it's likely to happen before this weekend's game, so it's a moot point.
But my brain tends to work best in zero sum calculations. So if one variable is smart, then the opposite variable is dumb.
If not signing DJ to an extension before the playoffs begin is neutral, then signing him to an extension before the playoffs begin is also neutral.
You can't just continue to say things that are not based in any factual evidence or meaning.
You guys that are still holding on to this notion that Jones shouldn't be paid pretty significantly are living in 2020. Get over it.
I said I'd start by offering him 4/100 and he might take it, that was about 6 weeks ago when I first said that. Considering where things stood, I thought that would be a smart offer.
Now - yeah - 3 for 100 and fully guaranteed would actually be a pretty fair deal and one that Jones would probably take as well.
Why are you such an asshole all of the time? My predictions on Jones have largely proven to be accurate. I'm not doing the board any disservice by predicting what he'll sign for. Anything 28-35M per year is fine by me. If he wants 40 per year over 3 years, I'd do that too.
You haven't predicted a fucking thing, and even when you do, you predict multiple iterations to ensure that you can puff out your chest and take a victory lap.
You make up your own reasons for why people leave BBI and take victory laps over that, too.
You make up scenarios where an argument on BBI reminds you of how your wife argues with you, and take victory laps over that, too.
But I'm the strange cat. Got it.
This is where I'm relying on Schoen to be clear eyed. If you get caught up in "this is a playoff team now", then you don't actually have the time to draft well and wait on rookies to prove they can play. You're trying to win now. I'm not sure the Giants are actually there yet. They won a lot of close and low scoring games. The Titans are an example of a team that won lots of close games one year, but didn't the next year and now they're firing GMs and coordinators.
The Giants have to draft well regardless, but if you start chasing playoffs now, then you're building with a mix of free agents and drafted rookies.
I said I'd start by offering him 4/100 and he might take it, that was about 6 weeks ago when I first said that. Considering where things stood, I thought that would be a smart offer.
Now now we know you don’t like lying. You were adamant that Jones was taking a hometown discount and it was a forgone conclusion because he really wants to be a Giant.
I also predicted that the Giants would sign him, because he'll give the Giants every opportunity to match whatever else he's going to get, based on guaranteed money, etc, as long as some other offer isn't totally out of this world outlandish, which it doesn't appear like that will happen.
You are such a fucking asshole dude. Relax. Daniel Jones ended up being pretty damn good. Sorry you and some others don't know how to cope with it. But he's going to sign for big money (although not too big that it will seem ridiculous) and you'll just have to carry on.
Quote:
Dunk, you are a strange cat.
I said I'd start by offering him 4/100 and he might take it, that was about 6 weeks ago when I first said that. Considering where things stood, I thought that would be a smart offer.
Now now we know you don’t like lying. You were adamant that Jones was taking a hometown discount and it was a forgone conclusion because he really wants to be a Giant.
Correct, and as I stated before, he absolutely will. If he gets a "better deal" from the Commanders or Carolina, he will stay with the Giants so long as its somewhat close. I am correct in that assumption - and if you don't realize that by now you are still sticking to your thoughts of Jones not being a Giant, because you really don't want him to be. Which is all you guys ever post about.
You can't just continue to say things that are not based in any factual evidence or meaning.
You guys that are still holding on to this notion that Jones shouldn't be paid pretty significantly are living in 2020. Get over it.
The people who are underpricing DJ are posters who have generally been mostly pro-DJ throughout his time here and now think a $30M AAV would be a validation of DJ's potential.
But I guess that's consistent with a group of people who say things that are not based in any factual evidence or meaning. By the way, you fit that description even with this post that I'm replying to.
Most of the so-called haters are the ones who actually understand the QB market and have concerns about how expensive a second contract is for an established QB1 signing with the team that drafted him.
Meanwhile, suggesting a 4y/$100M contract that has no comp anywhere in the current QB market is a perfect example of saying things that are not based in any factual evidence or meaning.
Quote:
In comment 15985476 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Who is better (RIght now) on that list other than Josh Allen? Who? After Josh I don’t see anyone that is significantly better.
So what kind of contract terms would you offer DJ this offseason, Carl? I'm not sure you've ever answered that question. It should be simple enough, since you've never had a doubt about DJ from the very start.
It's easy to wave the pom-poms until the rubber meets the road. What's the contract you'd offer?
Not sure but I would try and lock him up long term before Herbert, Jackson, Hurst and maybe Tua all set their numbers. It will bring his higher. That said Dunk I feel all qbs salaries are so inflated. But if you don’t have a QB in this league you can’t win.
Section 125 told me I was making things up when I said, just 2 weeks ago, some BBIers were saying Jones should get $40M / yr.
He told me I was dishonest because nobody was saying that. Now, after one impressive win against the worst team in the league, fully half the board is saying it.
Guaranteed money is what matters most to QBs. I could care less if the average amount is 28 or 40 as to what it comes out to be per season. It will likely fall somewhere in between. Jones is going to want close to 100M guaranteed and he'll likely get it.
Most of this board wanted Jones gone after last season.
Quote:
In comment 15985513 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 15985476 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Who is better (RIght now) on that list other than Josh Allen? Who? After Josh I don’t see anyone that is significantly better.
So what kind of contract terms would you offer DJ this offseason, Carl? I'm not sure you've ever answered that question. It should be simple enough, since you've never had a doubt about DJ from the very start.
It's easy to wave the pom-poms until the rubber meets the road. What's the contract you'd offer?
Not sure but I would try and lock him up long term before Herbert, Jackson, Hurst and maybe Tua all set their numbers. It will bring his higher. That said Dunk I feel all qbs salaries are so inflated. But if you don’t have a QB in this league you can’t win.
I think it's a given that he's going to get his contract before the others, if we assume that Boomer's intel is accurate. And I agree with you that DJ's price will continue to increase if the Giants take too long and some of the other young QBs get their deals first (although I don't think Herbert and Burrow change the calculus much because they're probably already assumed to be landing in the $50M AAV range as it is) - Tua and Hurts will be the contracts that could cement the $40M AAV as the bottom end of the QB1 tier going forward. That's where DJ will land also if he's not signed before them (and he might already land there anyway).
Reasonable to expect JS if he does his job well to add a upper tier WR, ILB, corner and some depth with potential for some of the draft picks to outperform.
I think expectations should and will be to win the NFCE next year. The biggest gap was at the LOS. They can address this imv.
Most of this board wanted Jones gone after last season.
Read this thread.
Read any DJ thread.
There are several pro-DJ fans who post things like "hahaha DJ is going to get $25M a year whether you like it or not haterz!!!1!one!" without even realizing that they're suggesting a journeyman QB price tag.
Just like you did.
That's actually exactly how contract comparisons work in negotiations.
Correct, and as I stated before, he absolutely will. If he gets a "better deal" from the Commanders or Carolina, he will stay with the Giants so long as its somewhat close. I am correct in that assumption - and if you don't realize that by now you are still sticking to your thoughts of Jones not being a Giant, because you really don't want him to be. Which is all you guys ever post about.
How are you correct in an assumption where you have zero insight into his camps thinking about scenario that might not even happen? This fantasy land you live in is wild. If Jones gets past the moratorium and gets offers from other teams he’s taking the highest offer. Whether that’s going to Carolina or the Giants matching whatever offer Carolina puts on the table for him.
And this has nothing to do with thinking the Giants shouldn’t commit big money to Jones yet, even though I know you think you’re inside every one on this boards heads. It’s insane that you don’t realize that what you accuse everyone else of being is just a projection of what you are.
Guaranteed money is what matters most to QBs. I could care less if the average amount is 28 or 40 as to what it comes out to be per season. It will likely fall somewhere in between. Jones is going to want close to 100M guaranteed and he'll likely get it.
Hahaha remember when you thought that extra years with less guaranteed money was somehow a benefit to Jones and he'd choose option #2 out of your three fictional scenarios?
Good thing you weren't making things up without factual evidence or meaning.
Murray’s AAV is 46M. That was a massive mistake. The Giants don’t need to just give Jones that because the Cardinals made an error.
Not sure but I would try and lock him up long term before Herbert, Jackson, Hurst and maybe Tua all set their numbers. It will bring his higher. That said Dunk I feel all qbs salaries are so inflated. But if you don’t have a QB in this league you can’t win.
If he plays well it’s really irrelevant that they locked him in before those guys get their deals. If he plays at their level the next two years he’s not playing year 3 and 4 of the deal on a $20 million discount.
You guys dreaming up these scenarios about Schoen playing hardball or Jones going to another team, it’s not going to happen. You’ve been wrong repeatedly about Jones and you will continue to do so.
1) In my view a franchise QB is roughly: He gets you to the playoffs most years. You pay him a lot, and therefore the surrounding talent suffers, but he makes up for it.
2) Franchise QBs almost always roll into the top 10 guarantees when they sign. If that's the case and Jones is a franchise QB, Team Jones is probably looking for 120M in guarantees, giving where the market will move this offseason.
Quote:
before the Playoff game, IMO.
So by implication, will it be dumb if it's not done before the playoff game?
How can it be done by Sunday? I doubt this is being actively negotiated this week. I mean, Jones has more to focus on right now
You guys dreaming up these scenarios about Schoen playing hardball or Jones going to another team, it’s not going to happen. You’ve been wrong repeatedly about Jones and you will continue to do so.
You're a fucking hypocrite, just so we're clear. No one creates more fictional scenarios than you.
This is 100% correct. Look, if Team Jones is still feeling in the spirit of the holiday season, and think 3/$90M is fair, Schoen signs on the dotted line in less than ten seconds.
But I can't believe Team Jones are that gullible and generous. This is a business first, game second.
Then again, I keep hearing Jones is a hard worker, dedicated, great teammate, Eagle scout, future recipient of President's Award for Distinguished Service, etc and will do whatever it takes to help the team financially... ;)
Quote:
In comment 15985537 mittenedman said:
Quote:
before the Playoff game, IMO.
So by implication, will it be dumb if it's not done before the playoff game?
How can it be done by Sunday? I doubt this is being actively negotiated this week. I mean, Jones has more to focus on right now
I agree. That's why I wasn't the one declaring it to be smart to get it done before the playoff game this weekend.
Recipe for success.
1) In my view a franchise QB is roughly: He gets you to the playoffs most years. You pay him a lot, and therefore the surrounding talent suffers, but he makes up for it.
2) Franchise QBs almost always roll into the top 10 guarantees when they sign. If that's the case and Jones is a franchise QB, Team Jones is probably looking for 120M in guarantees, giving where the market will move this offseason.
If the supporting cast is the reason for Jones' anemic passing production (touchdowns, yards), I don't see an easy path to improve the receiving options if we are paying Jones a lot more money.
I am fine giving Jones a two year deal (or three with an easy out). I thought a season like this one was well within Jones' abilities - using his legs to produce points, limiting turnovers. However, I do not think Jones can carry a team to a top ten offense or put up elite passing production. Is the thesis on the team that passing production - or even having an elite offense - is de-emphasized?
Quote:
The majority of the people that like Jones have defended him to death. The majority of those that didn't like him have been blaming him for everything and have wanted him off the team forever. Now that Jones has shown some signs(that's all it is, he hasn't proven a damn thing), the Jones fans that have defended him are going a bit too far.
He hasn't proven a damn thing to who?
Some fans want a passing attack in the top half of the league, not just good feelings.
You guys dreaming up these scenarios about Schoen playing hardball or Jones going to another team, it’s not going to happen. You’ve been wrong repeatedly about Jones and you will continue to do so.
Who is creating a scenario about Jones going to another team? You’re the one creating the hypothetical that Carolina and Washington are going to make him bigger offers and he’s going to come back to the Giants and say “I’ll take your smaller offer please”.
Like always you have no concept of how things work. Team Jones already knows the numbers other teams would be offering, they’ve already had those discussions under the table. If Boomer is right and they’re talking about the contract now, Team Jones has set their number at whatever number those teams gave them. The Giants will either come up to their number before the new league year starts or say prove you can get one of those deals offered on paper. Then the Giants will either match those numbers or tag him. If they sign a deal before the new league year, it’s because Team Jones knows there isn’t a better deal out there. They aren’t signing for a discount at this point in the year if there’s the possibility of something better out there, even if it means getting the Giants up to their price.
Quote:
No way he gets less that $35m per and may get a bit more than that. If you believe 3/90 you just don’t get how it works.
This is 100% correct. Look, if Team Jones is still feeling in the spirit of the holiday season, and think 3/$90M is fair, Schoen signs on the dotted line in less than ten seconds.
But I can't believe Team Jones are that gullible and generous. This is a business first, game second.
Then again, I keep hearing Jones is a hard worker, dedicated, great teammate, Eagle scout, future recipient of President's Award for Distinguished Service, etc and will do whatever it takes to help the team financially... ;)
Wouldn’t Jones Central be more apt?
Quote:
Couple of points I'm interested in tracking over the next few years.
1) In my view a franchise QB is roughly: He gets you to the playoffs most years. You pay him a lot, and therefore the surrounding talent suffers, but he makes up for it.
2) Franchise QBs almost always roll into the top 10 guarantees when they sign. If that's the case and Jones is a franchise QB, Team Jones is probably looking for 120M in guarantees, giving where the market will move this offseason.
If the supporting cast is the reason for Jones' anemic passing production (touchdowns, yards), I don't see an easy path to improve the receiving options if we are paying Jones a lot more money.
I am fine giving Jones a two year deal (or three with an easy out). I thought a season like this one was well within Jones' abilities - using his legs to produce points, limiting turnovers. However, I do not think Jones can carry a team to a top ten offense or put up elite passing production. Is the thesis on the team that passing production - or even having an elite offense - is de-emphasized?
It remains the core unanswered question from Jones' 2022 season. The main argument throughout has been what do you pay for this level of performance? How much more do you project Jones is capable of? How much of the projection revolves around the QB, and how much emphasis is being placed on projection of receiver upgrades? I think 3/120 is nuts at this point in time. I won't be shocked if they agree on 3/105, because it's clear they want him to succeed and there might not be an immediate upgrade available from UFA or the draft. After a playoff spot, they're unlikely to voluntarily make a decision where the optics are they're going backwards. 3/96-105 ballpark with market guarantees is better than the tag route for both parties, and keeps him off the market. A bird in hand and all that while they scout for the next QB.
2) I know he does some good things with his feet
But end of the day he's a QB. A QB who threw for 15 TDs in 16 games, and who averaged 200 yards passing per game.
I like him and everything, but talk of paying him like he's an elite QB is ridiculous.
2) I know he does some good things with his feet
But end of the day he's a QB. A QB who threw for 15 TDs in 16 games, and who averaged 200 yards passing per game.
I like him and everything, but talk of paying him like he's an elite QB is ridiculous.
At the end of the day we only asked him to throw ~25 times per game. Even if he completes 80% that is only 20 passes, hence 200 yds. Given the offense we are running he wasn't going to throw 40 times and get 300-400 yards. Its math. When asked, like vs Minny, he did. He completed 30-42 for 334 yds.
So Daboll and Schoen must think he can do it, and they are in a way under utilizing him because of our issues at WR. Given our talent, I think emphasizing Barkley and Jones running was exactly the right thing to do.
That’s why I think the best offer on a multi year deal from anyone is going to be $25-$30 million. I don’t think anyone is committing multi years at a price above the tag for one year of ok production. I wouldn’t call it a discount either, because it’s what the top offers will be.
Quote:
1) I know we we didn't give him great weapons
2) I know he does some good things with his feet
But end of the day he's a QB. A QB who threw for 15 TDs in 16 games, and who averaged 200 yards passing per game.
I like him and everything, but talk of paying him like he's an elite QB is ridiculous.
At the end of the day we only asked him to throw ~25 times per game. Even if he completes 80% that is only 20 passes, hence 200 yds. Given the offense we are running he wasn't going to throw 40 times and get 300-400 yards. Its math. When asked, like vs Minny, he did. He completed 30-42 for 334 yds.
So Daboll and Schoen must think he can do it, and they are in a way under utilizing him because of our issues at WR. Given our talent, I think emphasizing Barkley and Jones running was exactly the right thing to do.
One person refers to the whole season.
One outlier does not disprove the season's work.
There is more than one season to consider as well.
Quote:
it sounds like we are willing to tag which means 2 things - Jones will have to duplicate his success and not sustain a major injury. I don’t expect some big discount but the risks are magnified a bit for him since this his his lone standout year and he’s had an injury history.
That’s why I think the best offer on a multi year deal from anyone is going to be $25-$30 million. I don’t think anyone is committing multi years at a price above the tag for one year of ok production. I wouldn’t call it a discount either, because it’s what the top offers will be.
Assuming you mean other teams (anyone), then 3 years for $90 million with $60 million guaranteed (first 2 years) is the market and anything higher than that is the Giants bidding against themselves
Risks on both sides. The ones noted above for Jones and the risk for JS that someone does put a very big deal together that will be much more than he wanted to spend. I think Jones carry's the bigger risk with teams also having to give up two picks. JS then makes a choice.
You hope talks if they are happening find a compromise. Its a negotiation and things can go a different direction if one side feels the other is not being fair.
Quote:
In comment 15985674 christian said:
Quote:
Couple of points I'm interested in tracking over the next few years.
1) In my view a franchise QB is roughly: He gets you to the playoffs most years. You pay him a lot, and therefore the surrounding talent suffers, but he makes up for it.
2) Franchise QBs almost always roll into the top 10 guarantees when they sign. If that's the case and Jones is a franchise QB, Team Jones is probably looking for 120M in guarantees, giving where the market will move this offseason.
If the supporting cast is the reason for Jones' anemic passing production (touchdowns, yards), I don't see an easy path to improve the receiving options if we are paying Jones a lot more money.
I am fine giving Jones a two year deal (or three with an easy out). I thought a season like this one was well within Jones' abilities - using his legs to produce points, limiting turnovers. However, I do not think Jones can carry a team to a top ten offense or put up elite passing production. Is the thesis on the team that passing production - or even having an elite offense - is de-emphasized?
It remains the core unanswered question from Jones' 2022 season. The main argument throughout has been what do you pay for this level of performance? How much more do you project Jones is capable of? How much of the projection revolves around the QB, and how much emphasis is being placed on projection of receiver upgrades? I think 3/120 is nuts at this point in time. I won't be shocked if they agree on 3/105, because it's clear they want him to succeed and there might not be an immediate upgrade available from UFA or the draft. After a playoff spot, they're unlikely to voluntarily make a decision where the optics are they're going backwards. 3/96-105 ballpark with market guarantees is better than the tag route for both parties, and keeps him off the market. A bird in hand and all that while they scout for the next QB.
Yes, I'm concerned the team record is coloring the analysis of the offense (and by extension Jones). A made FG in TN and final minute touchdown in either London or Jacksonville has people singing different tunes, IMO.
This is still not a good offense despite Barley having a great year and Jones having his best season. Jones supporters are 100% correct that there is no upgrade available. But I don't see Jones as a championship guy unless we can build a 49ers type roster.
I also think it's highly likely another team offers him an incredibly stupid deal if he hits the market.
Quote:
In comment 15985719 Csonka said:
Quote:
1) I know we we didn't give him great weapons
2) I know he does some good things with his feet
But end of the day he's a QB. A QB who threw for 15 TDs in 16 games, and who averaged 200 yards passing per game.
I like him and everything, but talk of paying him like he's an elite QB is ridiculous.
At the end of the day we only asked him to throw ~25 times per game. Even if he completes 80% that is only 20 passes, hence 200 yds. Given the offense we are running he wasn't going to throw 40 times and get 300-400 yards. Its math. When asked, like vs Minny, he did. He completed 30-42 for 334 yds.
So Daboll and Schoen must think he can do it, and they are in a way under utilizing him because of our issues at WR. Given our talent, I think emphasizing Barkley and Jones running was exactly the right thing to do.
One person refers to the whole season.
One outlier does not disprove the season's work.
There is more than one season to consider as well.
You are missing the point. Daboll/Schoen have a clean sheet, and have worked with top QB's in the past. They know what they are doing. If we end up giving Jones a 3 yr, $120M or so contract, that means they think he is a good QB. They have seen him every day, and worked with him all year. We, and you, have zero idea what he can do. So if they give him that contract I am assuming that Minny wasn't the outlier, and they know he can do it all the time (if its in the game plan).
Quote:
In comment 15985542 Kmed6000 said:
Quote:
The majority of the people that like Jones have defended him to death. The majority of those that didn't like him have been blaming him for everything and have wanted him off the team forever. Now that Jones has shown some signs(that's all it is, he hasn't proven a damn thing), the Jones fans that have defended him are going a bit too far.
He hasn't proven a damn thing to who?
Some fans want a passing attack in the top half of the league, not just good feelings.
the offense is top half of the league. I guess that doesn't work?
NY Giants were about average in terms of pts scored in 1990, passing game included. About average in 2007, passing game included. And the team that won the super bowl last year, the Rams, were 9th in scoring.
You're going to let a QB walk because of that??? Isn't there more to QB evaluation than just "having an above average passing game?" --isn't there also some nuance or mitigating factors to think of as well? of course there are.
Quote:
Couple of points I'm interested in tracking over the next few years.
1) In my view a franchise QB is roughly: He gets you to the playoffs most years. You pay him a lot, and therefore the surrounding talent suffers, but he makes up for it.
2) Franchise QBs almost always roll into the top 10 guarantees when they sign. If that's the case and Jones is a franchise QB, Team Jones is probably looking for 120M in guarantees, giving where the market will move this offseason.
If the supporting cast is the reason for Jones' anemic passing production (touchdowns, yards), I don't see an easy path to improve the receiving options if we are paying Jones a lot more money.
I am fine giving Jones a two year deal (or three with an easy out). I thought a season like this one was well within Jones' abilities - using his legs to produce points, limiting turnovers. However, I do not think Jones can carry a team to a top ten offense or put up elite passing production. Is the thesis on the team that passing production - or even having an elite offense - is de-emphasized?
Maybe they can use Golladay's $900M salary towards improving the WR's?
So if that's the case why not sign him to the 30-35 mill range. Sure we all want a top 5 guy but they also cost 45-50 mill+ per year. This way we have a guy who can be top 10ish and have money for elsewhere. It's real tough to get that top 5 guy. Eli wasn't that and we won 2 SBs with him. I get it if people disagree with the take. We all have our opinions and Jones definitely is a mixed bag to this point.
But to make a Kyler Murray or Deshaun Watson error just isn't in the cards if Schoen has any say in this. The franchise tag still gives the team sufficient leverage to keep this negotiation in check.
This emerging thesis though that DJ will now miraculously transcend from the Trubisky/Mariota realm and become a quarterback on par with the Allens, Burrows, Herberts and Mahomes of the world is just fanciful narrative inflation. DJ is a good Giant who works hard and has progressed from below average to average under the superb tutelage of Daboll and Kafka.
Which we have learned from the very start of this season in Tennessee, and especially after yesterday's miraculous transformation of Davis Webb to Davy Dimes, is truly something of great value that should be recognized and celebrated.
What does playing under Joe Judge matter?
So if that's the case why not sign him to the 30-35 mill range. Sure we all want a top 5 guy but they also cost 45-50 mill+ per year. This way we have a guy who can be top 10ish and have money for elsewhere. It's real tough to get that top 5 guy. Eli wasn't that and we won 2 SBs with him. I get it if people disagree with the take. We all have our opinions and Jones definitely is a mixed bag to this point.
This is exactly what I think too, except I haven't got Lawrence in that group (yet).
I'd say Jones had two out of four good seasons by that metric. The middle two seasons under Judge were bad and even though Judge and Jason Garrett were horrific, Jones was also a below average QB for a non-rookie
Year 1-Salary -20 million(gtd) = Cap hit $25M
Year 2-Salary -25 million(gtd) = Cap hit $30M
Year 3-Salary -30 million(gtd) = Cap hit $35M
Year 4-Salary -35 million(5M gtd)= Cap hit $40M
Assuming you mean other teams (anyone), then 3 years for $90 million with $60 million guaranteed (first 2 years) is the market and anything higher than that is the Giants bidding against themselves
Correct. That’s where I see the market being, with it getting to 3 years $100 million with $75 million guaranteed if they win and he puts together a good performance Sunday. A game like the first Minnesota game without the turnover.
The playoffs are a part of the evaluation. I wouldn't put a dollar amount on a win but if he goes on and is a huge part of why they advance it certainly will impact things and JS will see it that way imv.
Year 1-Salary -20 million(gtd) = Cap hit $25M
Year 2-Salary -25 million(gtd) = Cap hit $30M
Year 3-Salary -30 million(gtd) = Cap hit $35M
Year 4-Salary -35 million(5M gtd)= Cap hit $40M
I'd be averse to giving Jones a 4th season unless he has a deep playoff run
An easy google will tell you 🤔
Today we are seeing DJDoubters tossing out 3/120, and even some DJHaters appear to be softening their position.
Quote:
4 years-120 Million-100M gtd-20M signing bonus
Year 1-Salary -20 million(gtd) = Cap hit $25M
Year 2-Salary -25 million(gtd) = Cap hit $30M
Year 3-Salary -30 million(gtd) = Cap hit $35M
Year 4-Salary -35 million(5M gtd)= Cap hit $40M
I'd be averse to giving Jones a 4th season unless he has a deep playoff run
That contract is essentially a 3 year deal with a team option for a 4th year. All of the gtd money is in the first 3 years with only 5M gtd in year 4.
Quote:
In comment 15985674 christian said:
Quote:
Couple of points I'm interested in tracking over the next few years.
1) In my view a franchise QB is roughly: He gets you to the playoffs most years. You pay him a lot, and therefore the surrounding talent suffers, but he makes up for it.
2) Franchise QBs almost always roll into the top 10 guarantees when they sign. If that's the case and Jones is a franchise QB, Team Jones is probably looking for 120M in guarantees, giving where the market will move this offseason.
If the supporting cast is the reason for Jones' anemic passing production (touchdowns, yards), I don't see an easy path to improve the receiving options if we are paying Jones a lot more money.
I am fine giving Jones a two year deal (or three with an easy out). I thought a season like this one was well within Jones' abilities - using his legs to produce points, limiting turnovers. However, I do not think Jones can carry a team to a top ten offense or put up elite passing production. Is the thesis on the team that passing production - or even having an elite offense - is de-emphasized?
Maybe they can use Golladay's $900M salary towards improving the WR's?
Spotrac says he is $7.9mm of dead cap if a post-June 1 cut. Jones would be getting a $25mm raise. Barkley would also be getting a raise. We would probably need to cut elsewhere?
What I find amazing is how these threads go 1000 post crazy and you really don't see too many people respect and acknowledge how hard it is for a QB to rush for 750 yards in a season and not only that, but rush for BIG yards when needed. Not just 750 yards...but 750 big yards. Game saving yards.
I watched the NYG Panther game last night because why not. YEt another of many underrated wins. "ONly scored 19 pts" cranky NYG fans as usual couldn't wait to indict Jones after this game. They did so all year. Thing is, watch that game again. Watch how good Jones looked in the 2nd half. NYG down 7 second half. Jones was literally under siege all day long. There were 2-3 plays second half that Jones had not one, but two and three guys jailbreaking on his ass and Jones either didn't take a sack or actually netted positive yards. I defy anyone to find a QB that does better in those spots. Time and time again in that game, when Barkley had done NOTHING, and the WRs, other than Shepard, were an unproven and barely even practicing lot, not nearly as refined as this group right now --this is a game an average offense loses. Carolina was ready to play after the fucked up first quarter. Jones won this game on his own, second hald but all we remember is "19 pts"
WATCH. THE. GAMES. Then watch them again.
Today we are seeing DJDoubters tossing out 3/120, and even some DJHaters appear to be softening their position.
They will be back in full force if he stinks it up in Minny.
Year 1-Salary -20 million(gtd) = Cap hit $25M
Year 2-Salary -25 million(gtd) = Cap hit $30M
Year 3-Salary -30 million(gtd) = Cap hit $35M
Year 4-Salary -35 million(5M gtd)= Cap hit $40M
No. Less than $
35m per will not get it done. Especially for 4 years.
Today we are seeing DJDoubters tossing out 3/120, and even some DJHaters appear to be softening their position.
You’ve only been here a week and half though…
lol - nvm then
I'd say Jones had two out of four good seasons by that metric. The middle two seasons under Judge were bad and even though Judge and Jason Garrett were horrific, Jones was also a below average QB for a non-rookie
If you admit that Judge and Garrett were both "horrific", how could Jones possibly have had good seasons with them in charge? Especially with the "talent" they had on offense. He didn't even have a healthy SB to hand the ball off to...
Then keep watching and count how many times in the 2nd half, when the games were close, how many times a holy shit we're all dead moment occurs only to see Jones somehow avoid the sack and many times actually net good yardage.
The guy is a regular Houdini act out there for most of the season but he doesn't really run or move like his hair is on fire and he doesn't possess that quick twitch AA that guys like Jackson possess, and he's quiet and doesn't self promote like the most overrated QB of the last 20 years does, Mr Mayfield. He just gets 11 yards on 3rd and long and leads his team to a ho hum, "not good enough" win.
Remember this? - ( New Window )
Why did Eli's passing numbers explode from average (2007 )to near elite (2011)? Eli was the same. Nicks and CRuz were better.
Jones can throw for 28-30 TDs and 4000 yards in his sleep with this staff. I hope he runs less going forward or only as needed --i'd rather see him throwing it then rushing. This too will come once the WRs and OL continue to evolve.
What I find amazing is how these threads go 1000 post crazy and you really don't see too many people respect and acknowledge how hard it is for a QB to rush for 750 yards in a season and not only that, but rush for BIG yards when needed. Not just 750 yards...but 750 big yards. Game saving yards.
I watched the NYG Panther game last night because why not. YEt another of many underrated wins. "ONly scored 19 pts" cranky NYG fans as usual couldn't wait to indict Jones after this game. They did so all year. Thing is, watch that game again. Watch how good Jones looked in the 2nd half. NYG down 7 second half. Jones was literally under siege all day long. There were 2-3 plays second half that Jones had not one, but two and three guys jailbreaking on his ass and Jones either didn't take a sack or actually netted positive yards. I defy anyone to find a QB that does better in those spots. Time and time again in that game, when Barkley had done NOTHING, and the WRs, other than Shepard, were an unproven and barely even practicing lot, not nearly as refined as this group right now --this is a game an average offense loses. Carolina was ready to play after the fucked up first quarter. Jones won this game on his own, second hald but all we remember is "19 pts"
WATCH. THE. GAMES. Then watch them again.
If you want a new QB every four years, let them run all day.
Manage less-fungible assets more wisely than RBs.
Things do get dicey for me when you're throwing around 100M+ in guarantees though, he's most certainly your guy going forward in that situation. Hard to get away from that. I like Jones, but for what he is right now, you're better off making him prove it again on the tag because you're already paying him like that.
Then keep watching and count how many times in the 2nd half, when the games were close, how many times a holy shit we're all dead moment occurs only to see Jones somehow avoid the sack and many times actually net good yardage.
The guy is a regular Houdini act out there for most of the season but he doesn't really run or move like his hair is on fire and he doesn't possess that quick twitch AA that guys like Jackson possess, and he's quiet and doesn't self promote like the most overrated QB of the last 20 years does, Mr Mayfield. He just gets 11 yards on 3rd and long and leads his team to a ho hum, "not good enough" win. Remember this? - ( New Window )
Highlights v. the entire picture.
Why did Eli's passing numbers explode from average (2007 )to near elite (2011)? Eli was the same. Nicks and CRuz were better.
Jones can throw for 28-30 TDs and 4000 yards in his sleep with this staff. I hope he runs less going forward or only as needed --i'd rather see him throwing it then rushing. This too will come once the WRs and OL continue to evolve.
Jones absolutely does need to get better at things. Assuming him staying the same and just getting better WRs and they get 4K yards and 30 tds is insanely optimistic.
[quote] In comment 15985364 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 15985317 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15985288 dpinzow said:
Quote:
With $60 million guaranteed and a voidable 3rd year if Jones regresses
I would be shocked if Team Jones signs that. That would be a very magnanimous gesture by them.
I agree. A lot of middling QBs out there making more than that. Why would Jones give the Giants some kind of deep discount or very team friendly terms?
I'm sure Jones sees value in sticking as he's finally with a coaching staff that has a clue. But after the stupid money recently thrown at Deshaun Watson, Kyler Murray and Russell Wilson, (not to mention Carr, Stafford, Cousins, Goff, Wentz, Ryan and Tannehill making more that $30K per year avg), no way his agent lets him agree to a big discount
I'm not sure this is a good case for signing Jones. You name a plethora of QB's, some of which are better than Jones and deserve to be paid more:
Watson, Stafford, Cousins, Goff and possibly Tannehill.
You also mentioned older QB's that have a big history in the NFL and are well into their careers:
Wilson, Carr, Matt Ryan.
Then you mention QB's that are way overpaid and holding back their teams:
Wentz and Murray
People are getting a little out of hand about Jones. I get that he's improving and has room to grow and that is certainly worth something, but he's still a risk to sign at big money. Pretending like he's owed more than everyone on this list or even near the top is dangerous, IMO. [/quote
The Giants are in the playoffs mainly because of DJ, wise up.
Would you enlighten us?
Would you enlighten us?
Denton at CAA
Anyone know anything about him?
We have one of the best running games in the NFL. 5th in the NFL in YPC(Daniel Jones is certainly a part of that). SB was one of the best running backs in football this year.
Defensively, we were pretty damn good holding teams to under 22 pts per game and coming through when needed.
We are in the playoffs because of coaching, IMO. They used this personnel perfectly.
Today we are seeing DJDoubters tossing out 3/120, and even some DJHaters appear to be softening their position.
The thread is about a report that Jones will absolutely be re-signed. So, if you assume that inevitability, wouldn't it make sense to talk what is practical around that framework?
I wouldn't go beyond a FT. And even take the risk of letting Team Jones test the market. But those options appear off the table per the OP.
Jones can throw for 28-30 TDs and 4000 yards in his sleep with this staff.
Okay, well it would be nice to see that in reality. He'd damn well better if they're going to pay him like this.
Quote:
the offensive playmakers and maybe an interior OL needs to be improved.
Why did Eli's passing numbers explode from average (2007 )to near elite (2011)? Eli was the same. Nicks and CRuz were better.
Jones can throw for 28-30 TDs and 4000 yards in his sleep with this staff. I hope he runs less going forward or only as needed --i'd rather see him throwing it then rushing. This too will come once the WRs and OL continue to evolve.
Jones absolutely does need to get better at things. Assuming him staying the same and just getting better WRs and they get 4K yards and 30 tds is insanely optimistic.
Yes, Jones does need to get better at things (all QB's do). But it's not insane to think he can throw for 28 TD's and 4,000. He's got a bunch of #3 WR's and an OL who can't pass block for shit (though they have gotten better the last few games, they are still pretty bad at it overall).
He threw for 3,200 yards in 16 games this season - if he played yesterday, he would be up to 3,400 if he threw for his per game average. That means he would have to throw for 600 more yards over 17 games, which is about 35 per game. With a real WR (or two) and a better blocking line, why is that so outrageous?
How many runs did have this year that started as a pass attempt that turned into scrambles because 1) no one was open or 2) he didn't see an open player (to your point about needing to get better)?
4,000 is very achievable. 28 TD's is as well, if he can get a top flight WR.
I also think a number of fans will be surprised what James and Slayton earn next year in the open market.
And Sexton isn’t one of his reps, but you know he’s always in the mix somehow on the outside.
"She goes to another school, you don't know her!"
I’m a real fan. I have season tickets. I’d bring Jones back for next year but I’m not fully convinced he’s worth signing for multiple years with $100 million guaranteed. Does that not make me a real fan?
Again - if they can cut the number of drops even by 8-10 (ie, getting a real WR), that would net him a bunch more yards (100?)
Quote:
Keeps getting proven more and more wrong each week. I’ll be the one to go out on a limb, Hodgins is going to be better for the Giants than Davis is for Buffalo if the Giants find a legit #1
I also think a number of fans will be surprised what James and Slayton earn next year in the open market.
Goes to show you how dumb the WR market is. Doesn’t mean those players aren’t 3s.
He can do it in his sleep. He just needs a much better offensive line and better pass catchers. Those will come in his sleep too I imagine.
What any player gets is not also a true measure of talent and production. It just takes one team to set a market.
Hodgins is a possession receiver . Don't me wrong, he's really good at it. But he's not a burner, not someone who can stretch the field. IMO, it's a stretch to think he'll be anything more than a really good #3. Maybe - MAYBE - a 2, if he's the option behind an alpha 1.
However, I'm curious - if Hodgins does become a 2 and/or ends up better than Davis, is that because Jones had a role in elevating Hodgins as a player? Or will all the credit go to scheme/coaching or whatever?
Because I've been told that elite QB's raise the level of play for the players around him. SO just curious how much credit Jones would get for the ascension
PS - Davis doesn't have to be "great" for Buffalo. Not when you have a go to guy like Diggs as the #1. But right now, Hodgins appears to be the go to guy. Huge difference.
What any player gets is not also a true measure of talent and production. It just takes one team to set a market.
To wit - some moron paid $72 million to Golladay. If some team is stupid enough to overpay for Slayton or James, that doesn't prove shit about how good they will be
Where exactly has this been proven?
Do you think any of our receivers could be a 1 or a 2 somewhere else?
Quote:
In comment 15985844 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Keeps getting proven more and more wrong each week. I’ll be the one to go out on a limb, Hodgins is going to be better for the Giants than Davis is for Buffalo if the Giants find a legit #1
I also think a number of fans will be surprised what James and Slayton earn next year in the open market.
Goes to show you how dumb the WR market is. Doesn’t mean those players aren’t 3s.
I think the underlying numbers indicate Slayton has much better upside than a 3rd option.
I’ve been critical of Jones, but who are you replacing him with? I look around the league at some absolutely horrific QB play. Then there is “trade for Russell Wilson” or “trade for DeShaun Watson”, really? How are those massive contracts looking? I was intrigued by Malik Willis but he’s been so bad he got benched.
It’s easy to move on until you see some of the alternatives. Jones doesn’t need to be “the guy” but still could be a lot better than the alternative. That’s okay. This is where I think I’ve been wrong. So many people can’t accept the middle ground.
What I find amazing is how these threads go 1000 post crazy and you really don't see too many people respect and acknowledge how hard it is for a QB to rush for 750 yards in a season and not only that, but rush for BIG yards when needed. Not just 750 yards...but 750 big yards. Game saving yards.
I watched the NYG Panther game last night because why not. YEt another of many underrated wins. "ONly scored 19 pts" cranky NYG fans as usual couldn't wait to indict Jones after this game. They did so all year. Thing is, watch that game again. Watch how good Jones looked in the 2nd half. NYG down 7 second half. Jones was literally under siege all day long. There were 2-3 plays second half that Jones had not one, but two and three guys jailbreaking on his ass and Jones either didn't take a sack or actually netted positive yards. I defy anyone to find a QB that does better in those spots. Time and time again in that game, when Barkley had done NOTHING, and the WRs, other than Shepard, were an unproven and barely even practicing lot, not nearly as refined as this group right now --this is a game an average offense loses. Carolina was ready to play after the fucked up first quarter. Jones won this game on his own, second hald but all we remember is "19 pts"
WATCH. THE. GAMES. Then watch them again.
Great stuff. The haters on this board love to throw out the stats but disregard the plenty big play moments. DJ has at times put this team on his back and won games on his own. The fact that he did this with a leaky OL and at best average WRs makes it even more amazing. Cite all the stats you want but this kid has IT!! His desire and determination and football sense are not an average commodity that many have. Instead of knocking his every move we should be thankful we have him. How many on this board predicted a 3,4, or 5 game win season, guess why it's more. Mainly DJ!! Many here will be surprised by the contract he gets, if not from the Giants someone else and to make them feel better will say the team was dumb.
Sounds great and all, you're such a football purist and realist, but the goal is to win a SB and this offense is not winning a SB. How many SB's were won by teams that didn't succeed passing the ball? Even still, the goal is to be perennial contenders and the only proven method of doing that in the NFL is by having a great QB that can pass the ball.
DJ needs to be better at passing the ball.
Backing up the truck for average play is the recipe for a championship.
At this point, they're keeping him around, but this isn't Flowers for Algernon. Don't expect some magical improvement in his fifth year.
Quote:
Get off your high horse and open your eyes. If you can’t accept that maybe you underestimated his ability that is on you. A real fan would be glad we found our QB and we can move on to other areas of need.
I’m a real fan. I have season tickets. I’d bring Jones back for next year but I’m not fully convinced he’s worth signing for multiple years with $100 million guaranteed. Does that not make me a real fan?
Were you one of the fans giving him a standing ovation at the Colts game?
He certainly leads the Giants in this category by a long shot.
I am not not is that crowd with the analytics and data gurus trying to apply as a rule in a real time contact sport with constant change. Provide the data and let the big boys make the decisions as they see the situation.
That said they need more pass production. I think 4k plus is very reasonable for next year and I also hope they get to 26 pts or so. Keep the rushing carries similar but have more from the backs instead of Jones. I expect Bellinger and a upper tier WR to provide a good amount more TD's with the other weapons benefitted as well.
Quote:
Keeps getting proven more and more wrong each week. I’ll be the one to go out on a limb, Hodgins is going to be better for the Giants than Davis is for Buffalo if the Giants find a legit #1
Hodgins is a possession receiver . Don't me wrong, he's really good at it. But he's not a burner, not someone who can stretch the field. IMO, it's a stretch to think he'll be anything more than a really good #3. Maybe - MAYBE - a 2, if he's the option behind an alpha 1.
However, I'm curious - if Hodgins does become a 2 and/or ends up better than Davis, is that because Jones had a role in elevating Hodgins as a player? Or will all the credit go to scheme/coaching or whatever?
Because I've been told that elite QB's raise the level of play for the players around him. SO just curious how much credit Jones would get for the ascension
PS - Davis doesn't have to be "great" for Buffalo. Not when you have a go to guy like Diggs as the #1. But right now, Hodgins appears to be the go to guy. Huge difference.
Davis caught 4 touchdown passes in the conference championship game. If Hodgins is better than that sign me up.
Good Lord.
NOTHING in life is guaranteed. If the Packers bring back Rodgers there's no guarantee he won't be Old Man River. There was no guarantee Russell Wilson would be good for DEN. There is no guarantee C.J. Stroud will be a good 1st round pick.
You don't get guarantees. But if you're getting hung up on whether DJ's numbers would increase with better receivers, you're lost. It's probably the safest projection you could make in football. Going from subpar WRs to good WRs = more QB production. I'm OK taking that "risk".
Good Lord.
NOTHING in life is guaranteed. If the Packers bring back Rodgers there's no guarantee he won't be Old Man River. There was no guarantee Russell Wilson would be good for DEN. There is no guarantee C.J. Stroud will be a good 1st round pick.
You don't get guarantees. But if you're getting hung up on whether DJ's numbers would increase with better receivers, you're lost. It's probably the safest projection you could make in football. Going from subpar WRs to good WRs = more QB production. I'm OK taking that "risk".
So explain Derek Carr. And Kyler Murray.
My concern with three years is that if he doesn't have the greatest season ever in 2023, BBI capologists will immediately start moving money around in their empty heads to find a way to cut him after one season.
Carl, you sound like an idiot when you say this. I'm perfectly willing to accept various explanations for why DJ's numbers are what they are, including scheme, past coaching, current skill position weaknesses, etc. What I'm not willing to do is play make-believe.
DJ's numbers are not great. Patrick Mahomes' numbers are great. Joe Burrow's numbers are great. I'd even say that Jalen Hurts's numbers this season are great, if you're looking at 2-way threats at QB. DJ's numbers aren't in that stratosphere. They're not great.
That doesn't mean it's his fault. It doesn't mean he shouldn't be signed. It doesn't mean he's bad at football or any of that - this isn't meant to knock him. It's meant to keep us grounded in reality. There's a lot of reasons for DJ's numbers to be not great, but it's important to acknowledge that they are, in fact, not great.
Because if this is "great," then DJ can GTFO and so can anyone else who thinks this is what great offense looks like. It's been good enough this year. There are some encouraging reasons to think it could continue to get better with Daboll, Kafka, and additional reinforcements on offense. And that may result in DJ's numbers becoming great. But they're not now, not yet.
Needing another WR doesn’t mean Hodgins can’t be better than Davis. Davis is the #2 on one of the best offenses in football.
Good Lord.
NOTHING in life is guaranteed. If the Packers bring back Rodgers there's no guarantee he won't be Old Man River. There was no guarantee Russell Wilson would be good for DEN. There is no guarantee C.J. Stroud will be a good 1st round pick.
You don't get guarantees. But if you're getting hung up on whether DJ's numbers would increase with better receivers, you're lost. It's probably the safest projection you could make in football. Going from subpar WRs to good WRs = more QB production. I'm OK taking that "risk".
It could lead to more production but downsides do exist if the run game falls off.
What I hope they shoot for is keeping the rushing carries consistent and adding more pop to the pass game. They don't need to be a 5k passing team.
2022 they averaged 30.5 carries, 148 yards, 4.8 YPA.
Take some carries away from Jones and give it to the backs but strengthening the IOL and hopeful Neal and Bellinger improvement. YPA probably dips a bit running wise but that is okay. Shoot for 4.5 plus. If your in the 3's things won't be going well unless your QB, OL and WR's bail you out.
Hit those running numbers and they are sitting pretty with a good D.
Playoffs again. As the case in 2005-08, 10 and now this year. When they let the ground game go to crap is when the destruction happened outside 2011 which was a special QB and group of WR's.
NFCE football.
If it were - it would already be done.
Quote:
tells me all I need to know about how badly we need a WR upgrade.
Needing another WR doesn’t mean Hodgins can’t be better than Davis. Davis is the #2 on one of the best offenses in football.
I agree. My point is that he’s our highest upside WR (currently playing). I think we know what James and Slayton are.
So explain Derek Carr. And Kyler Murray.
Haha, what's to explain? There are no guarantees in life. Is that what you're getting hung up on?
As I said, it's a safe bet that better surrounding talent will = better production from the QB. And specifically - getting a QB a #1 WR increases production.
Wins are a team stat, based on a variety of factors.
The more points you score, the more likely you are to win. It's not "analytics" it's basic. If your plan is to score 21 PPG and win, you need a lot of things to go right, and you don't need to spend $35 million on a QB.
Quote:
To be better protected and have WRs who can catch the ball. He passes the ball just fine. His numbers are great. He doesn’t throw it enough cause the defense gives up way to much on the ground limiting his possessions. Don’t say he doesn’t pass the ball well enough cause it’s just not true.
Carl, you sound like an idiot when you say this. I'm perfectly willing to accept various explanations for why DJ's numbers are what they are, including scheme, past coaching, current skill position weaknesses, etc. What I'm not willing to do is play make-believe.
DJ's numbers are not great. Patrick Mahomes' numbers are great. Joe Burrow's numbers are great. I'd even say that Jalen Hurts's numbers this season are great, if you're looking at 2-way threats at QB. DJ's numbers aren't in that stratosphere. They're not great.
That doesn't mean it's his fault. It doesn't mean he shouldn't be signed. It doesn't mean he's bad at football or any of that - this isn't meant to knock him. It's meant to keep us grounded in reality. There's a lot of reasons for DJ's numbers to be not great, but it's important to acknowledge that they are, in fact, not great.
Because if this is "great," then DJ can GTFO and so can anyone else who thinks this is what great offense looks like. It's been good enough this year. There are some encouraging reasons to think it could continue to get better with Daboll, Kafka, and additional reinforcements on offense. And that may result in DJ's numbers becoming great. But they're not now, not yet.
Not fighting here but what does Hurst have? Smith and Brown, Burrow Chase, Boyd and Higgins, Mahomes , Kelce and pack of fast Wr’s that run after the catch. All of the above would be #1 receivers on the giants. Jones doesn’t get the 10 yd throws taken to the house like other QBs.
Quote:
In comment 15985898 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
To be better protected and have WRs who can catch the ball. He passes the ball just fine. His numbers are great. He doesn’t throw it enough cause the defense gives up way to much on the ground limiting his possessions. Don’t say he doesn’t pass the ball well enough cause it’s just not true.
Carl, you sound like an idiot when you say this. I'm perfectly willing to accept various explanations for why DJ's numbers are what they are, including scheme, past coaching, current skill position weaknesses, etc. What I'm not willing to do is play make-believe.
DJ's numbers are not great. Patrick Mahomes' numbers are great. Joe Burrow's numbers are great. I'd even say that Jalen Hurts's numbers this season are great, if you're looking at 2-way threats at QB. DJ's numbers aren't in that stratosphere. They're not great.
That doesn't mean it's his fault. It doesn't mean he shouldn't be signed. It doesn't mean he's bad at football or any of that - this isn't meant to knock him. It's meant to keep us grounded in reality. There's a lot of reasons for DJ's numbers to be not great, but it's important to acknowledge that they are, in fact, not great.
Because if this is "great," then DJ can GTFO and so can anyone else who thinks this is what great offense looks like. It's been good enough this year. There are some encouraging reasons to think it could continue to get better with Daboll, Kafka, and additional reinforcements on offense. And that may result in DJ's numbers becoming great. But they're not now, not yet.
Not fighting here but what does Hurst have? Smith and Brown, Burrow Chase, Boyd and Higgins, Mahomes , Kelce and pack of fast Wr’s that run after the catch. All of the above would be #1 receivers on the giants. Jones doesn’t get the 10 yd throws taken to the house like other QBs.
Cool, that's great. And I'm not disagreeing with you - I agree that there are external factors that influence a QB's numbers.
We can sit here and have a really interesting discussion about how much those factors impact the overall offense, how much they cost (in dollars and/or draft picks), etc. That sounds like it would be a productive conversation.
It also would be a different topic than what I responded to. Because it would invariably be similar to what you just replied with, a whole bunch of whatabouts to explain why other QBs have great numbers. It's all valid. Do you know what it doesn't translate to?
DJ's numbers right now being great. Because they're not. Not yet.
Quote:
Yds and 30 TDs and not make the playoffs? Or have 3,200 yds lead the league in not throwing interceptions have 25 combined making the playoffs? This younger generation is all on stats and analytics rather than being a general out there bringing home the W’s.
Wins are a team stat, based on a variety of factors.
The more points you score, the more likely you are to win. It's not "analytics" it's basic. If your plan is to score 21 PPG and win, you need a lot of things to go right, and you don't need to spend $35 million on a QB.
I highly doubt the plan is to score 21 pts. Yes this was the plan this year because of the make up of the offense, but moving forward I have to believe we want to look more like Buffalo. It comes down to what DaBoll and Schoen think of Jones. They have seen him every day for a year, and have also coached big time QBs.
Jones has shown glimpses and won games, but also wasn't asked to usually do the 45 passes a game thing. Doesn't mean he can or he can't, its just not how DaBoll is winning games right now. If they give him a contract and think he is the right guy, then I'm on board. They know a lot more than I do about this.
LoS, it also seems idiotic to ignore that those QB comparisons originated in response to a statement which read, "[DJ's] numbers are great."
Present tense. Fully realized.
The QBs I mentioned DO have better stats over DJ. That's a fucking fact.
The context around those stats matter, and the context helps inform the QB's value. But it doesn't inform his stats. I'm not arguing that we can or can't win with DJ. I'm rooting like hell for him to win four more games this year alone.
What I'm arguing against is your statement that "[DJ's] numbers are great." They just aren't great, not yet. And I'm not saying they can't be. I'm not saying they won't be. I'm not saying he's the reason why they're not. I'm saying simply that DJ's numbers are not what can be objectively considered "great" at their current level right now.
Quote:
But he is #7 in QBR Burrow is 10th Herbert is #11. Kid has a great year doing it with no one. To say they have great stats over him is just not true considering everything not just TDs thrown. Mahomes is the best in football. But can we win with Jones at QB without a doubt.
The QBs I mentioned DO have better stats over DJ. That's a fucking fact.
The context around those stats matter, and the context helps inform the QB's value. But it doesn't inform his stats. I'm not arguing that we can or can't win with DJ. I'm rooting like hell for him to win four more games this year alone.
What I'm arguing against is your statement that "[DJ's] numbers are great." They just aren't great, not yet. And I'm not saying they can't be. I'm not saying they won't be. I'm not saying he's the reason why they're not. I'm saying simply that DJ's numbers are not what can be objectively considered "great" at their current level right now.
You’re fingers must be in spasm mode by now..😂
Hope you’re well, my friend..
Quote:
You're correct. Variables around the QB matter. It seems idiotic to not include that when making comparisons.
LoS, it also seems idiotic to ignore that those QB comparisons originated in response to a statement which read, "[DJ's] numbers are great."
Present tense. Fully realized.
"DJ's numbers are not great. Patrick Mahomes' numbers are great. Joe Burrow's numbers are great. I'd even say that Jalen Hurts's numbers this season are great, if you're looking at 2-way threats at QB. DJ's numbers aren't in that stratosphere. They're not great."
I guess I am missing something. From the looks of it you're determining great.
I stand by what I said. The bigger thing is you do not know is what exactly the HC wanted from DJ within the make up of this team he may have performed several things that were GREAT for this staff. Those things may not always show up in a more touted stat but are as important to THIS team winning. Especially considering the variables around him.
I saw plenty of great things he did this year.
The more points you score, the more likely you are to win. It's not "analytics" it's basic. If your plan is to score 21 PPG and win, you need a lot of things to go right, and you don't need to spend $35 million on a QB.
While it's been a down year in scoring across the league, you indeed need to have a lot line up right to win and make the playoffs at 21/PPG
We come into these playoffs as the 16th ranked team in PPG. Outside of the Ravens (19th) and the Bucs (25th), that is the lowest for teams who qualified for the playoffs.
For context, Ravens have basically played the last six weeks without LJax, which has dragged down their scoring average. The Ravens have averaged 12/PPG without him. And I think most of us would agree the Bucs are only in the tournament because they play in the NFCS disaster.
Of our nine wins, two teams that have made the playoffs - Jacksonville and the Ravens. And that Raven win was - let's be honest - an early Christmas present.
They throw a lot more, meaning there's more room for changes in QBR.
Burrow has thrown the ball over six hundred times.
Herbert has thrown the ball 699 times
Jones 472. A lot more can happen in that difference of attempts.
Quote:
was a big part of the reason they made the playoffs, and he is. How anyone can be surprised by this at this point...
Backing up the truck for average play is the recipe for a championship.
At this point, they're keeping him around, but this isn't Flowers for Algernon. Don't expect some magical improvement in his fifth year.
But you’re missing the point - Jones has been much better than “average”.
At least for anyone who has objectively watched the games this year.
🤷🏻♂️
It's very obvious to everyone on earth that has come to grips with it - that Jones is the Giants franchise QB. Whether or not he improves dramatically, slightly, or hell, reverts to his prior play - that's up to him. Schoen and Daboll are betting that he's going to improve over the next few years by paying him 3/4 years and whatever he gets.
This discussion on AAV and salary is dandy. But bottom line - it will be what Schoen does to improve the rest of the team as well that will also impact the team performance.
All I know is that you guys keep discussing Jones as if he's the same QB from 2021 or 2020. That is no longer a discussion. He's clearly significantly better than most of you thought, and yeah, it took awhile, he needed better coaching and better OL play. No fucking shit. Every QB would be better with those things.
Players change. They get better. They get worse. Some take more time than others.
The fact that some of you are stuck in the past with Jones is quite sad.
Quote:
So explain Derek Carr. And Kyler Murray.
Haha, what's to explain? There are no guarantees in life. Is that what you're getting hung up on?
As I said, it's a safe bet that better surrounding talent will = better production from the QB. And specifically - getting a QB a #1 WR increases production.
You said better WRs leading to better QB production is the easiest projection to make, but then how is there two examples from just this year?
Quote:
But he is #7 in QBR Burrow is 10th Herbert is #11. Kid has a great year doing it with no one. To say they have great stats over him is just not true considering everything not just TDs thrown. Mahomes is the best in football. But can we win with Jones at QB without a doubt.
They throw a lot more, meaning there's more room for changes in QBR.
Burrow has thrown the ball over six hundred times.
Herbert has thrown the ball 699 times
Jones 472. A lot more can happen in that difference of attempts.
Sure. But imagine if jones could throw the ball to Austin eckler out the backfield for 107 receptions this season? Those are some pretty safe passes.
Contrast that to Barkley, who (i believe) has the most dropped passes this season. (Either for running backs or all receivers, I’m not sure)
Just sayin’
Quote:
In comment 15985965 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
You're correct. Variables around the QB matter. It seems idiotic to not include that when making comparisons.
LoS, it also seems idiotic to ignore that those QB comparisons originated in response to a statement which read, "[DJ's] numbers are great."
Present tense. Fully realized.
"DJ's numbers are not great. Patrick Mahomes' numbers are great. Joe Burrow's numbers are great. I'd even say that Jalen Hurts's numbers this season are great, if you're looking at 2-way threats at QB. DJ's numbers aren't in that stratosphere. They're not great."
I guess I am missing something. From the looks of it you're determining great.
I stand by what I said. The bigger thing is you do not know is what exactly the HC wanted from DJ within the make up of this team he may have performed several things that were GREAT for this staff. Those things may not always show up in a more touted stat but are as important to THIS team winning. Especially considering the variables around him.
I saw plenty of great things he did this year.
I consider player statistics to be one of the few objective data points that we have. I also believe it's naive to rely on statistics alone if your goal is to fully capture the value of a player or the success of a team.
I think you can value a player quite highly and attribute quite a bit of team success to that player when examining a team in its totality, while also recognizing that some (much?) of a player's value may be underrepresented on the agate page. Thus, I think it's possible to appreciate a player's value to his team's success - paraphrasing from you, doing great things within his role in his team's strategy - while also acknowledging that his style of play does not result in objectively great statistics in the way that we're all familiar as football fans in general.
This is not a knock on DJ. When you see that a QB throws for 400 yards, 4 TDs, no interceptions, and wins 35-14 or something like that, it's easy (and accurate) to call that a great game for the QB, and to recognize that his numbers were great. Pile up a bunch of easily recognizable great games and you start to have easily recognizable great numbers for the season.
DJ has had a great season, largely correlated with the Giants having a great season. The Giants would not be where they are right now without DJ. There's a lot of nuance in DJ's game that makes the context and gameflow matter more. The Giants win on razor-thin margins, and not just in terms of the final score. Daboll and his staff have to manage every possession with really smart chess-like strategy. A team like the Bengals or Chiefs, with their prolific offenses, can overcome a possession here or there that they throw away taking a couple of failed shots. The Giants aren't built that way, so they don't play that way, and that includes DJ. It's by design, and it's working. I'm not complaining about it, I'm just saying that it doesn't translate into easily recognizable great numbers for the QB.
It's lazy (and intellectually dishonest) to say that DJ's numbers are great. They're not great numbers by the most common QB metrics. That doesn't mean he's not playing great football.
It's very obvious to everyone on earth that has come to grips with it - that Jones is the Giants franchise QB. Whether or not he improves dramatically, slightly, or hell, reverts to his prior play - that's up to him.
We get it. That point has been conceded, I fully expect that Jones will be the Giants QB for at least 2023 and probably thru 2025. You can stop fighting for him on that front.
But Jones is going to have to deliver, because that's the expectation for QBs in the NFL. Those expectations are the next phase in the ONGOING conversation about the NY Giants. Jones isn't just a cog, he's the damn QB, the most important position in the game.
That isn't "kicking the can down the road" that's just reality.
You bring up the past more than everyone else combined. More projection, it seems.
Jones is going to have to play really well after being paid 30M+ per year? Wow, what a novel concept.
It's very obvious to everyone on earth that has come to grips with it - that Jones is the Giants franchise QB. Whether or not he improves dramatically, slightly, or hell, reverts to his prior play - that's up to him. Schoen and Daboll are betting that he's going to improve over the next few years by paying him 3/4 years and whatever he gets.
This discussion on AAV and salary is dandy. But bottom line - it will be what Schoen does to improve the rest of the team as well that will also impact the team performance.
All I know is that you guys keep discussing Jones as if he's the same QB from 2021 or 2020. That is no longer a discussion. He's clearly significantly better than most of you thought, and yeah, it took awhile, he needed better coaching and better OL play. No fucking shit. Every QB would be better with those things.
Players change. They get better. They get worse. Some take more time than others.
The fact that some of you are stuck in the past with Jones is quite sad.
What is this rambling nonsense? Should we not discuss what the contract is going to be? Are peoples not allowed to change their opinion when new data presents itself? No wonder why your wife argues with you so much.
Quote:
The fact that some of you are stuck in the past with Jones is quite sad.
You bring up the past more than everyone else combined. More projection, it seems.
Nope, not projecting. Just remember this thread on the day that he signs his contact, you guys are going to be absolutely stunned that you were yet again wrong about how the Giants feel about Jones.
Quote:
In comment 15986020 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
The fact that some of you are stuck in the past with Jones is quite sad.
You bring up the past more than everyone else combined. More projection, it seems.
Nope, not projecting. Just remember this thread on the day that he signs his contact, you guys are going to be absolutely stunned that you were yet again wrong about how the Giants feel about Jones.
WTF are you talking about? My multiyear contract prediction for DJ has consistently been significantly higher than yours for months and you think this is gonna be your watershed *GOTCHA* moment? Do you not realize that you already painted yourself into a corner where if DJ doesn't take a hometown discount to stay with the Giants that you were wrong all along?
Get a grip.
Quote:
In comment 15985920 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
So explain Derek Carr. And Kyler Murray.
Haha, what's to explain? There are no guarantees in life. Is that what you're getting hung up on?
As I said, it's a safe bet that better surrounding talent will = better production from the QB. And specifically - getting a QB a #1 WR increases production.
You said better WRs leading to better QB production is the easiest projection to make, but then how is there two examples from just this year?
Because Murray sucks as a passer?
Carr regressing this year really defies logic. He had Adams and Waller, and he still regressed. Some will blame it on him having a new HC (so did jones, his 3rd HC in 4 years, but i digress). IMO he has begun to decline.
Quote:
In comment 15985973 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
But he is #7 in QBR Burrow is 10th Herbert is #11. Kid has a great year doing it with no one. To say they have great stats over him is just not true considering everything not just TDs thrown. Mahomes is the best in football. But can we win with Jones at QB without a doubt.
They throw a lot more, meaning there's more room for changes in QBR.
Burrow has thrown the ball over six hundred times.
Herbert has thrown the ball 699 times
Jones 472. A lot more can happen in that difference of attempts.
Sure. But imagine if jones could throw the ball to Austin eckler out the backfield for 107 receptions this season? Those are some pretty safe passes.
Contrast that to Barkley, who (i believe) has the most dropped passes this season. (Either for running backs or all receivers, I’m not sure)
Just sayin’
I understand what you're saying, but that's part of the reason the QBR numbers rank a bit lower than Jones, a lot of short passes.
This is the same phenomenon as when Jones was hailed as being the best deep passer rated in the NFL. It was technically true, and also it was on the bare minimum qualifying attempts.
QBs like Rogers were rated lower, but had nearly three times the attempts made.
Better to be very efficient on 60 deep passes rather than being hyper efficient on 20 deep passes a year. There's a lot of line up between teams that have more explosive plays and teams that score more points and win more games.
Maybe you should learn to laugh things off instead of taking everything Jones-related so personally. I'm sorry some of us don't love him like you do. It'll be okay.
I think it was like two or three days ago. If it makes you feel better, I don't really think you have a wife, or I wouldn't keep making jokes about it.
I’m not defensive. I’ve said for weeks it’s likely he’s back for a couple of years, the rest depends on the price.
I know it’s a novel concept for your mush brain to handle, but I enjoy when Daniel Jones plays well. One thing is for certain if he does revert back to the 2020 and 2021 Jones, you’ll never face the fire.
Quote:
Yds and 30 TDs and not make the playoffs? Or have 3,200 yds lead the league in not throwing interceptions have 25 combined making the playoffs? This younger generation is all on stats and analytics rather than being a general out there bringing home the W’s.
Wins are a team stat, based on a variety of factors.
The more points you score, the more likely you are to win. It's not "analytics" it's basic. If your plan is to score 21 PPG and win, you need a lot of things to go right, and you don't need to spend $35 million on a QB.
The fact that this is lost on so many people is baffling to me. Has Jones improved this year? Absolutely. But to just say, "hey our QB went from sucking to middle of the pack. Lets pay him the market rate" is not a sound way to run a football team with so many players in a game of attrition.
This does not apply only to Jones by the way. I have been bitching about QB salaries getting out of control for over 10 years.
Did Aaron Rodgers take less to keep Adams around? Of course not. Did Eli Manning take less despite having an absolute dogshit offensive line in front of him for years? He never left a penny on the table.
At least we knew Eli in his prime was a top 10 QB who could win the Superbowl. Whoever said ranking QBs and determining where they stand relative to their peers doesn't matter, that is absurd. Of course it matters. Derek Carr is an above average - good QB. The Raiders are dumping him this offseason because paying him $40M isn't worth it.
So let's say the Giants give Jones a 3 year, $120M contract. Well that is 18% of the cap in 2023. Then they slap Barkley with the FT. There goes most of the cap space the team has this offseason.
The WR FA market sucks, so we are forced to draft for need. Well, the draft is a crap shoot. You can end or with Justin Jefferson, Jaylon Raegor or Kadarius Toney. Large contracts are on the horizon for Lawrence, Thomas and McKinney. Let's not forget that Adoree Jackson has only 1 year left on his deal, so add corner to the list of needs in addition to LB, IOL, and WR.
I don't know the answer here. But the Giants better be smart about this.
I still think the best answer is to institute a max QB contract into the CBA that is a % of the cap, regardless of the total number to level the playing field.
You make it the back and forth. This thread was perfectly fine without any nonsense, discussing potential contract structure and they strut in like you’re some kind of football genius telling people to “deal with”, “Jones it’s getting if you don’t agree you’re an a idiot and get over it”. Open your fucking eyes dude.
Quote:
and btw, you and GD have both brought up my wife after I made a small joke about arguments like 2 weeks ago. Keep it classy you fucking assholes. Jesus christ.
I think it was like two or three days ago. If it makes you feel better, I don't really think you have a wife, or I wouldn't keep making jokes about it.
Good one dude. Keep at it.
This is a puzzling comment.
Out of curiosity, if it is so tiresome, why participate as regularly as you do?
I still think the best answer is to institute a max QB contract into the CBA that is a % of the cap, regardless of the total number to level the playing field.
This is always an interesting topic. Obviously the Union would be against it because it hurts QB contracts but it also helps other players earn more money too.
I also said it is idiotic to compare to other QB's without also including the variables and situation of that QB so one can make a better assessment.
Whether or not Jones will be great with different expectations based off talent is TBD but for me I think he has a good chance to take another big step with the right variables in place. That is JS/BD to figure out.
I will say the things he was asked and relied to do were not always easy and often under a lot of stress. Those things to translate.
I don't need analytics to tell me this.
And for whoever said Murray isn’t a good passer I call bullshit. Despite having to throw through the trees hes been above 65% since entering the league and almost at 70% last year along with 8 YPA. You can be a poor passer and have those kind of metrics.
It was over 80%
I then said that if the Giants made the playoffs it would be a foregone conclusion that he would be resigned. A tag if no deal could be reached but he would definitely be back.
I heard all kinds of REALLY ignorant shit in response.
"You don't know what or who Daboll or Schoen wants to run their system".
I know they want to make the fucking playoffs.
You think Daboll is going to want to replace the QB that gets him to the playoffs in his first year as head coach?
"Yes"
Wow.
or my favorite
"It doesn't matter, because winning like this is not sustainable"
Anybody wanna raise their hand that said that kind of stuff early in the year?
It's OK, I remember, I'm just not the of putz to put people on blast.
I believe they are actually trying to extend him right because they believe he can do real damage in the playoffs. That will only make the contract go up.
Jones is ascending.
You(We) were wrong about Jones, I just saw it months ago and had the courage to admit it.
Some of you look really small today.
I warned you.
Quote:
In comment 15986010 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15985973 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
But he is #7 in QBR Burrow is 10th Herbert is #11. Kid has a great year doing it with no one. To say they have great stats over him is just not true considering everything not just TDs thrown. Mahomes is the best in football. But can we win with Jones at QB without a doubt.
They throw a lot more, meaning there's more room for changes in QBR.
Burrow has thrown the ball over six hundred times.
Herbert has thrown the ball 699 times
Jones 472. A lot more can happen in that difference of attempts.
Sure. But imagine if jones could throw the ball to Austin eckler out the backfield for 107 receptions this season? Those are some pretty safe passes.
Contrast that to Barkley, who (i believe) has the most dropped passes this season. (Either for running backs or all receivers, I’m not sure)
Just sayin’
I understand what you're saying, but that's part of the reason the QBR numbers rank a bit lower than Jones, a lot of short passes.
This is the same phenomenon as when Jones was hailed as being the best deep passer rated in the NFL. It was technically true, and also it was on the bare minimum qualifying attempts.
QBs like Rogers were rated lower, but had nearly three times the attempts made.
Better to be very efficient on 60 deep passes rather than being hyper efficient on 20 deep passes a year. There's a lot of line up between teams that have more explosive plays and teams that score more points and win more games.
Don’t disagree that QBR is a flawed stat. But there isn’t a perfect stat out there.
It’s unfathomable to me that there are still people out there who don’t/won’t acknowledge that - by ANY measure - Jones didn’t have great season. The eye test alone should tell people that.
It’s hard for a team to make the playoffs with out your QB having a really really good - if not great - season. Sure it happens - ie, Derrick Henry carrying TEN in the past - but it’s not that common.
Stupid double negatives.
I also said it is idiotic to compare to other QB's without also including the variables and situation of that QB so one can make a better assessment.
This has some merit.
For example, I look how KC performed with Mahomes and think only a three other QBs in the league could perform near that level.
I look at how NYG performed, and I think there are probably 13 other QBs who could have been just as effective under the deft hands of Daboll and Kafka.
Quote:
In comment 15986033 speedywheels said:
Quote:
In comment 15986010 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15985973 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
But he is #7 in QBR Burrow is 10th Herbert is #11. Kid has a great year doing it with no one. To say they have great stats over him is just not true considering everything not just TDs thrown. Mahomes is the best in football. But can we win with Jones at QB without a doubt.
They throw a lot more, meaning there's more room for changes in QBR.
Burrow has thrown the ball over six hundred times.
Herbert has thrown the ball 699 times
Jones 472. A lot more can happen in that difference of attempts.
Sure. But imagine if jones could throw the ball to Austin eckler out the backfield for 107 receptions this season? Those are some pretty safe passes.
Contrast that to Barkley, who (i believe) has the most dropped passes this season. (Either for running backs or all receivers, I’m not sure)
Just sayin’
I understand what you're saying, but that's part of the reason the QBR numbers rank a bit lower than Jones, a lot of short passes.
This is the same phenomenon as when Jones was hailed as being the best deep passer rated in the NFL. It was technically true, and also it was on the bare minimum qualifying attempts.
QBs like Rogers were rated lower, but had nearly three times the attempts made.
Better to be very efficient on 60 deep passes rather than being hyper efficient on 20 deep passes a year. There's a lot of line up between teams that have more explosive plays and teams that score more points and win more games.
Don’t disagree that QBR is a flawed stat. But there isn’t a perfect stat out there.
It’s unfathomable to me that there are still people out there who don’t/won’t acknowledge that - by ANY measure - Jones didn’t have great season. The eye test alone should tell people that.
It’s hard for a team to make the playoffs with out your QB having a really really good - if not great - season. Sure it happens - ie, Derrick Henry carrying TEN in the past - but it’s not that common.
Not even Sy thinks he had a great season. What you're beholding isn't uniformly accepted fact. These nasty Jones arguments come from a person or people projecting their view as the obviously correct thing when it's simply not objectively true.
Jones did not have a great season passing the ball. It was solid season for sure.
Quote:
I also said it is idiotic to compare to other QB's without also including the variables and situation of that QB so one can make a better assessment.
This has some merit.
For example, I look how KC performed with Mahomes and think only a three other QBs in the league could perform near that level.
I look at how NYG performed, and I think there are probably 13 other QBs who could have been just as effective under the deft hands of Daboll and Kafka.
I am going to say unequivocally that Jones has improved in multiple areas, most importantly red zone efficiency. This shows up in both the statistics and to the discerning eye. They do not want this kid to get to the market. I don't think he signs ANYTHING. We can go far.
I did not include JimG in my grouping.
I could see the following doing what Jones did or >:
Mahomes, Herbert, Allen, LJax, Hurts, Lawrence, Watson, Murray, Tannehill, Geno, Burrow, Rodgers, Wilson.
I am very tempted, too, to throw my other boy in that mix: Fields.
Quote:
In comment 15986068 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15986033 speedywheels said:
Quote:
In comment 15986010 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15985973 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
But he is #7 in QBR Burrow is 10th Herbert is #11. Kid has a great year doing it with no one. To say they have great stats over him is just not true considering everything not just TDs thrown. Mahomes is the best in football. But can we win with Jones at QB without a doubt.
They throw a lot more, meaning there's more room for changes in QBR.
Burrow has thrown the ball over six hundred times.
Herbert has thrown the ball 699 times
Jones 472. A lot more can happen in that difference of attempts.
Sure. But imagine if jones could throw the ball to Austin eckler out the backfield for 107 receptions this season? Those are some pretty safe passes.
Contrast that to Barkley, who (i believe) has the most dropped passes this season. (Either for running backs or all receivers, I’m not sure)
Just sayin’
I understand what you're saying, but that's part of the reason the QBR numbers rank a bit lower than Jones, a lot of short passes.
This is the same phenomenon as when Jones was hailed as being the best deep passer rated in the NFL. It was technically true, and also it was on the bare minimum qualifying attempts.
QBs like Rogers were rated lower, but had nearly three times the attempts made.
Better to be very efficient on 60 deep passes rather than being hyper efficient on 20 deep passes a year. There's a lot of line up between teams that have more explosive plays and teams that score more points and win more games.
Don’t disagree that QBR is a flawed stat. But there isn’t a perfect stat out there.
It’s unfathomable to me that there are still people out there who don’t/won’t acknowledge that - by ANY measure - Jones didn’t have great season. The eye test alone should tell people that.
It’s hard for a team to make the playoffs with out your QB having a really really good - if not great - season. Sure it happens - ie, Derrick Henry carrying TEN in the past - but it’s not that common.
Not even Sy thinks he had a great season. What you're beholding isn't uniformly accepted fact. These nasty Jones arguments come from a person or people projecting their view as the obviously correct thing when it's simply not objectively true.
Good thing BD has credited the players numerous times through the year.
Takes two to tango.
What the staff can be commended for is coming close to maximizing the existing talent imv.
Plenty of times these teams with "elite" QB's have met their fate in the playoffs when they meet those "elite" D's. If in its own conference playoffs it has happened plenty in SB's.
AFC has traditionally been the conference of the bigger stat QB's over many decades. Often the other side is impacted by it.
One of reasons Cincy advanced last year is they bring it on the other side.
Quote:
agree on the former but not the later. With out personnel the running was critical and outside of the top passers in the league, there aren’t many who’d be able to make up for it without running. Your boy Jimmy G, for example, wouldnt be able to be effective with this personnel IMO, and that’s if he even lasts the season.
I did not include JimG in my grouping.
I could see the following doing what Jones did or >:
Mahomes, Herbert, Allen, LJax, Hurts, Lawrence, Watson, Murray, Tannehill, Geno, Burrow, Rodgers, Wilson.
I am very tempted, too, to throw my other boy in that mix: Fields.
You lose a lot of credibility in your anti jones argument when you throw names like geno and tannehill into it, and even mentioning fields at this point is a joke. The guys has thrown for 200 yards twice this year with considerably better receivers than the giants have
They finished 9-7-1, I wasn't really off target with the not sustainable observation.
Jones had a good season, he cleaned up his ball security for the most part, his decision making improved, pocket awareness was better, he stepped up big in some spots, he played plus QB in the system built around what he does well.
He wasn't "great", that's a term fans tend to use very loosely. He's ascending, and there's still a significant hill to climb to reach where many believe he is now. He's a ~15 QB in the NFL now. That's not where I would decide it's wise to spend $35M per and put my job on the line, but we'll see what they decide, and then we'll see if it was the right decision down the road.
Mostly division games but also Detroit and Seattle off the top of my head.
Jones was part of this at times but often it was the WR's and OL more in the fault factor imv.
I agree about the greatness. Very solid season and curious to see next progression.
You lose a lot of credibility in your anti jones argument when you throw names like geno and tannehill into it, and even mentioning fields at this point is a joke. The guys has thrown for 200 yards twice this year with considerably better receivers than the giants have
It's analyzing the Daboll/Kafka system and the skills that made it work. I can't stand Geno; but, JFC, he had a fabulous year in Seattle. Why is it incredible to think he could not perform here?
The Bears offense is the worst in football when you factor in OL, receivers, RBs, coaches, etc. Fields had a phenomenal year running. He is a big athlete with a great arm who just needs a better organization. So, I have no problem thinking in better hands he could excel.
I get it if you disagree because this is subjective. But if we gave Jones the "Four Year NFL Plan", I am signing Fields up for the same and declaring it's far too early to claim he's a bust.
MVP of the Giants or the NFL?
Quote:
When you consider the weapons he had, the protection he had, it might be an MVP season. He CARRIED us to a number of our wins. Barkley was good too but Jones was more important. Breida and Brightwell had good numbers too.
MVP of the Giants or the NFL?
MVP? lol.
I also said it is idiotic to compare to other QB's without also including the variables and situation of that QB so one can make a better assessment.
Whether or not Jones will be great with different expectations based off talent is TBD but for me I think he has a good chance to take another big step with the right variables in place. That is JS/BD to figure out.
I will say the things he was asked and relied to do were not always easy and often under a lot of stress. Those things to translate.
I don't need analytics to tell me this.
Dude, you jumped into an argument I was having with Carl that stemmed from him saying the words, "[DJ's] numbers are great."
Everything I wrote on the topic after that was a response to that sentence. You seem to be taking the conversation in a different direction and interpreting anything I've said as being inconsistent with what you're saying.
Here's what I am saying, for absolute clarity:
Leaving aside the context in which the numbers were compiled, because the statistics themselves are context-agnostic, if you were to categorize DJ's statistics alone as "great" (as in, "his numbers are great."), then you are, by inclusion, effectively stating that almost every single starting QB in the NFL has great numbers.
It is a completely different conversation to discuss DJ's value to the Giants, and by extension, the Giants' success as a result of DJ's development this year. Likewise, it is a completely different conversation to discuss the ways in which DJ has been great within the confines of an offensive system that is working successfully for the Giants. I am not arguing either of those points, though you seem to keep replying as though I am.
I am only arguing the former point, which was Carl's statement that DJ's "numbers are great." They aren't great, objectively speaking.
DJ doesn't need to be prolific as a passer for the Giants to win this season, as presently constructed. He may need to in the future as the team continues to evolve, but we have no way of knowing that right now, and it's not what I'm suggesting.
I'm merely saying that when you look at QB numbers in the NFL, and without any sort of breakdown or analysis, you simply look at the league leaders across the common quarterback passing stats, you can quickly identify the handful of QBs in any era that are putting up great numbers for that era. If you came here from outer space (which, for some BBI posters, would explain some things), and someone pulled up the individual passing stats on NFL.com, you'd probably be able to identify a handful of QBs that pretty much every football fan would agree has great numbers.
And then there are some who have misleading numbers - some have numbers that are inflated (maybe the QB is on an awful team, always playing from behind, facing garbage-time defenses, etc.); some have numbers that are deflated (maybe the QB is on a run-first team that has iffy receivers and some pass protection issues on the OL) - and for those, the context matters a lot. But once you're into the "context matters" category, you're out of the "objectively great" category, IMO.
You can win championships in the "context matters" category, for the record. That's where most champions come from, IMO. Or at least the Giants' championships do.
They finished 9-7-1, I wasn't really off target with the not sustainable observation.
Jones had a good season, he cleaned up his ball security for the most part, his decision making improved, pocket awareness was better, he stepped up big in some spots, he played plus QB in the system built around what he does well.
He wasn't "great", that's a term fans tend to use very loosely. He's ascending, and there's still a significant hill to climb to reach where many believe he is now. He's a ~15 QB in the NFL now. That's not where I would decide it's wise to spend $35M per and put my job on the line, but we'll see what they decide, and then we'll see if it was the right decision down the road.
Well said. Are the Giants an ~average team that had some luck/great coaching that pushed them to a playoff spot or do they have an ascending core that needs another year of marinating to get to championship contention?
I personally think we have below average to average talent. Teams with this talent level make the playoffs from time to time but don't make it every year. I think a lot of the current Jones debate revolves around this question.
Jones did not have a great season passing the ball. It was solid season for sure.
If you don’t think he had a great season throwing the ball, you’re lost.
That’s not to say he had “great” season stats throwing the ball. But considering his talent level, he did very well. The reads, progressions, decision making, etc
Quote:
agree on the former but not the later. With out personnel the running was critical and outside of the top passers in the league, there aren’t many who’d be able to make up for it without running. Your boy Jimmy G, for example, wouldnt be able to be effective with this personnel IMO, and that’s if he even lasts the season.
I did not include JimG in my grouping.
I could see the following doing what Jones did or >:
Mahomes, Herbert, Allen, LJax, Hurts, Lawrence, Watson, Murray, Tannehill, Geno, Burrow, Rodgers, Wilson.
I am very tempted, too, to throw my other boy in that mix: Fields.
Re fields - running or passing? Running - no question, he’s better. But passing? You’ve got to be kidding, fields was BRUTAL as a passer.
That’s not even debatable.
But of the Giants? I’m in the yes camp.
That’s not even debatable.
Actually including Lawrence is debatable. And LJAX, only because he missed 6 games. Being available/healthy matters. This is the 2nd season in a row that he’s missed 5+ games.
They finished 9-7-1, I wasn't really off target with the not sustainable observation.
Jones had a good season, he cleaned up his ball security for the most part, his decision making improved, pocket awareness was better, he stepped up big in some spots, he played plus QB in the system built around what he does well.
He wasn't "great", that's a term fans tend to use very loosely. He's ascending, and there's still a significant hill to climb to reach where many believe he is now. He's a ~15 QB in the NFL now. That's not where I would decide it's wise to spend $35M per and put my job on the line, but we'll see what they decide, and then we'll see if it was the right decision down the road.
You also said this was a 3-4 win team, several years away from competing, to be fair and transparent. :)
That’s not even debatable.
It's not about who had the better year. My point was which QBs can do just as well as Jones with under Daboll/Kafka.
I am taking a leap of faith with Wilson that he just had a bad experience in Denver. It's an outlier year. If he stinks it up again in '23, I will be ready to say he's hit the wall.
Tannehill missed 5 games. It may be a stretch to include him, but he's got similar skills to Jones.
Quote:
Is fucking ridiculous. Jones was clearly better than both this season.
That’s not even debatable.
Actually including Lawrence is debatable. And LJAX, only because he missed 6 games. Being available/healthy matters. This is the 2nd season in a row that he’s missed 5+ games.
That's very funny. LJax and Lawrence would have no problems doing what is asked of Jones. They have the right tools.
Quote:
At 6-1 or 7-2, I said winning was not sustainable, and they would not win 12-14 games. I also predicted 9 wins at that point, with a shot at 10 if they didn't beat themselves.
They finished 9-7-1, I wasn't really off target with the not sustainable observation.
Jones had a good season, he cleaned up his ball security for the most part, his decision making improved, pocket awareness was better, he stepped up big in some spots, he played plus QB in the system built around what he does well.
He wasn't "great", that's a term fans tend to use very loosely. He's ascending, and there's still a significant hill to climb to reach where many believe he is now. He's a ~15 QB in the NFL now. That's not where I would decide it's wise to spend $35M per and put my job on the line, but we'll see what they decide, and then we'll see if it was the right decision down the road.
You also said this was a 3-4 win team, several years away from competing, to be fair and transparent. :)
To be fair, if we’re going to knock people’s preseason predictions for this year, we should go back to the past couple of years as well. Many who are crowing about how right they were this year were most likely terribly off in the past couple. FTR, I had them at 7-10, I’m thrilled to be wrong.
I'll give you very well.
Great? Sorry, I can't concede that.
Quote:
At 6-1 or 7-2, I said winning was not sustainable, and they would not win 12-14 games. I also predicted 9 wins at that point, with a shot at 10 if they didn't beat themselves.
They finished 9-7-1, I wasn't really off target with the not sustainable observation.
Jones had a good season, he cleaned up his ball security for the most part, his decision making improved, pocket awareness was better, he stepped up big in some spots, he played plus QB in the system built around what he does well.
He wasn't "great", that's a term fans tend to use very loosely. He's ascending, and there's still a significant hill to climb to reach where many believe he is now. He's a ~15 QB in the NFL now. That's not where I would decide it's wise to spend $35M per and put my job on the line, but we'll see what they decide, and then we'll see if it was the right decision down the road.
You also said this was a 3-4 win team, several years away from competing, to be fair and transparent. :)
Haha, yep. I love JonC but he has patted himself on the back on numerous threads recently that he told us all winning wasn’t sustainable playing the way they were. I think most people with a brain knew it wasn’t sustainable so I’m not sure why he keeps telling us that he told us so. Seems like a weird thing to be looking to get credit for, honestly
Quote:
In comment 15986204 speedywheels said:
Quote:
Is fucking ridiculous. Jones was clearly better than both this season.
That’s not even debatable.
Actually including Lawrence is debatable. And LJAX, only because he missed 6 games. Being available/healthy matters. This is the 2nd season in a row that he’s missed 5+ games.
That's very funny. LJax and Lawrence would have no problems doing what is asked of Jones. They have the right tools.
I’m not sold on Lawrence yet. But re LJAX - as i said, availability matters. Who cares if he has the right tools but only has plays 11-12 games per season?
Even you can admit health matters.
Re Lawrence - he’s only had one good year. Jury is still out.
Quote:
In comment 15986148 JonC said:
Quote:
At 6-1 or 7-2, I said winning was not sustainable, and they would not win 12-14 games. I also predicted 9 wins at that point, with a shot at 10 if they didn't beat themselves.
They finished 9-7-1, I wasn't really off target with the not sustainable observation.
Jones had a good season, he cleaned up his ball security for the most part, his decision making improved, pocket awareness was better, he stepped up big in some spots, he played plus QB in the system built around what he does well.
He wasn't "great", that's a term fans tend to use very loosely. He's ascending, and there's still a significant hill to climb to reach where many believe he is now. He's a ~15 QB in the NFL now. That's not where I would decide it's wise to spend $35M per and put my job on the line, but we'll see what they decide, and then we'll see if it was the right decision down the road.
You also said this was a 3-4 win team, several years away from competing, to be fair and transparent. :)
To be fair, if we’re going to knock people’s preseason predictions for this year, we should go back to the past couple of years as well. Many who are crowing about how right they were this year were most likely terribly off in the past couple. FTR, I had them at 7-10, I’m thrilled to be wrong.
Not knocking it at all, just pointing it out for completeness.. We all have been wrong through the years
Quote:
Is fucking ridiculous. Jones was clearly better than both this season.
That’s not even debatable.
It's not about who had the better year. My point was which QBs can do just as well as Jones with under Daboll/Kafka.
I am taking a leap of faith with Wilson that he just had a bad experience in Denver. It's an outlier year. If he stinks it up again in '23, I will be ready to say he's hit the wall.
Tannehill missed 5 games. It may be a stretch to include him, but he's got similar skills to Jones.
I don’t care that RT has missed 5 games, Jones is more talented than him (overall). Not a question
Quote:
In comment 15986212 speedywheels said:
Quote:
In comment 15986204 speedywheels said:
Quote:
Is fucking ridiculous. Jones was clearly better than both this season.
That’s not even debatable.
Actually including Lawrence is debatable. And LJAX, only because he missed 6 games. Being available/healthy matters. This is the 2nd season in a row that he’s missed 5+ games.
That's very funny. LJax and Lawrence would have no problems doing what is asked of Jones. They have the right tools.
I’m not sold on Lawrence yet. But re LJAX - as i said, availability matters. Who cares if he has the right tools but only has plays 11-12 games per season?
Even you can admit health matters.
Re Lawrence - he’s only had one good year. Jury is still out.
Lol. You are not sold on Lawrence but you are sold on Jones? If we are talking about only one good year, isn't the jury still out on Jones?
Quote:
At 6-1 or 7-2, I said winning was not sustainable, and they would not win 12-14 games. I also predicted 9 wins at that point, with a shot at 10 if they didn't beat themselves.
They finished 9-7-1, I wasn't really off target with the not sustainable observation.
Jones had a good season, he cleaned up his ball security for the most part, his decision making improved, pocket awareness was better, he stepped up big in some spots, he played plus QB in the system built around what he does well.
He wasn't "great", that's a term fans tend to use very loosely. He's ascending, and there's still a significant hill to climb to reach where many believe he is now. He's a ~15 QB in the NFL now. That's not where I would decide it's wise to spend $35M per and put my job on the line, but we'll see what they decide, and then we'll see if it was the right decision down the road.
You also said this was a 3-4 win team, several years away from competing, to be fair and transparent. :)
That was 2021, I predicted 6 wins thus season. Grin
Quote:
In comment 15986148 JonC said:
Quote:
At 6-1 or 7-2, I said winning was not sustainable, and they would not win 12-14 games. I also predicted 9 wins at that point, with a shot at 10 if they didn't beat themselves.
They finished 9-7-1, I wasn't really off target with the not sustainable observation.
Jones had a good season, he cleaned up his ball security for the most part, his decision making improved, pocket awareness was better, he stepped up big in some spots, he played plus QB in the system built around what he does well.
He wasn't "great", that's a term fans tend to use very loosely. He's ascending, and there's still a significant hill to climb to reach where many believe he is now. He's a ~15 QB in the NFL now. That's not where I would decide it's wise to spend $35M per and put my job on the line, but we'll see what they decide, and then we'll see if it was the right decision down the road.
You also said this was a 3-4 win team, several years away from competing, to be fair and transparent. :)
That was 2021, I predicted 6 wins thus season. Grin
Then you were the optimistic one..😎
Quote:
In comment 15986217 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15986212 speedywheels said:
Quote:
In comment 15986204 speedywheels said:
Quote:
Is fucking ridiculous. Jones was clearly better than both this season.
That’s not even debatable.
Actually including Lawrence is debatable. And LJAX, only because he missed 6 games. Being available/healthy matters. This is the 2nd season in a row that he’s missed 5+ games.
That's very funny. LJax and Lawrence would have no problems doing what is asked of Jones. They have the right tools.
I’m not sold on Lawrence yet. But re LJAX - as i said, availability matters. Who cares if he has the right tools but only has plays 11-12 games per season?
Even you can admit health matters.
Re Lawrence - he’s only had one good year. Jury is still out.
Lol. You are not sold on Lawrence but you are sold on Jones? If we are talking about only one good year, isn't the jury still out on Jones?
Jones had a good rookie year. Then judge/Garett took over and fucked everything they touched.
Lawrence had bad coaching last year, but jones had two years of judge/Garrett .which i would argue were worse than one year of urban meyer
I don’t care that RT has missed 5 games, Jones is more talented than him (overall). Not a question
I know how badly you want Jones to be on the level of Herbert, but Tannehill is a very apt comp. ;)
Quote:
In comment 15986235 speedywheels said:
Quote:
In comment 15986217 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15986212 speedywheels said:
Quote:
In comment 15986204 speedywheels said:
Quote:
Is fucking ridiculous. Jones was clearly better than both this season.
That’s not even debatable.
Actually including Lawrence is debatable. And LJAX, only because he missed 6 games. Being available/healthy matters. This is the 2nd season in a row that he’s missed 5+ games.
That's very funny. LJax and Lawrence would have no problems doing what is asked of Jones. They have the right tools.
I’m not sold on Lawrence yet. But re LJAX - as i said, availability matters. Who cares if he has the right tools but only has plays 11-12 games per season?
Even you can admit health matters.
Re Lawrence - he’s only had one good year. Jury is still out.
Lol. You are not sold on Lawrence but you are sold on Jones? If we are talking about only one good year, isn't the jury still out on Jones?
Jones had a good rookie year. Then judge/Garett took over and fucked everything they touched.
Lawrence had bad coaching last year, but jones had two years of judge/Garrett .which i would argue were worse than one year of urban meyer
He did not have a good rookie year. He had a few monster games against dogshit defenses. He was 2nd in the NFL in turnovers and fumbled 18 times.
Maybe I have an “advantage” over some fans here. I have faith that whatever monies that will be paid to DJ, Schoen will feel comfortable enough to STILL be able to sign others already here or around the league, without jeopardizing the team build at all..
Some worry too much
Quote:
Let's see what kind of coin DJ gets before people start freaking out.
Maybe I have an “advantage” over some fans here. I have faith that whatever monies that will be paid to DJ, Schoen will feel comfortable enough to STILL be able to sign others already here or around the league, without jeopardizing the team build at all..
Some worry too much
If he get's $40, he get's $40. IMV, Schoen will have a plan to improve the team and he will do it with the long game in mind.
Quote:
In comment 15986263 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Let's see what kind of coin DJ gets before people start freaking out.
Maybe I have an “advantage” over some fans here. I have faith that whatever monies that will be paid to DJ, Schoen will feel comfortable enough to STILL be able to sign others already here or around the league, without jeopardizing the team build at all..
Some worry too much
I'm right there with you.
If he get's $40, he get's $40. IMV, Schoen will have a plan to improve the team and he will do it with the long game in mind.
He gave us an inkling of how it will be, when he refused to kick the can down the road this year, stayed his intended course and signed lesser tier players who got us where we are today..
Whatever DJ signs for will not hurt us, imho
It depends on the day most of the time.
Quote:
In comment 15986263 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Let's see what kind of coin DJ gets before people start freaking out.
Maybe I have an “advantage” over some fans here. I have faith that whatever monies that will be paid to DJ, Schoen will feel comfortable enough to STILL be able to sign others already here or around the league, without jeopardizing the team build at all..
Some worry too much
I'm right there with you.
If he get's $40, he get's $40. IMV, Schoen will have a plan to improve the team and he will do it with the long game in mind.
If he gets 40, it will be structured so that the first few years won't prevent them from being able to sign some weapons
also told its very very close, but likely wouldnt get reported until next week even if its done now