if he's playing well you get an extra year or two out of him, and maybe you tag him and trade him like the chiefs did with dee ford several years ago. i think ngakoue actually got tagged and traded too.
but bottom line ojulari is the type of player there's no rush to extend because he's probably not a core player (but more of a great role player).
thomas and lawrence i think have clearly moved themselves into the building block category. you'd hate to lose either of them even if you got 2 first round picks back.
Hear anything about where they think the team is? How close the D is to being elite? Expect to compete strongly for.a championship? I understand playoffs are happening now so the are “competing “ just curious of the feeling inside. Thanks
RE: there is this part of me that kept thinking the Giants
Hear anything about where they think the team is? How close the D is to being elite? Expect to compete strongly for.a championship? I understand playoffs are happening now so the are “competing “ just curious of the feeling inside. Thanks
Wink didn't want to lose JB but they couldnt afford to keep him, look for something in draft unless they can find someone who fits in FA. he values db's and he wants another ER he can trust, watch for some ravens cast offs, maybe some guys coming off injury on prove it deals.
outeiroj are they considering bringing back slayton?
i assume he's going to be more expensive than they want but curious if they even want him back. he's obviously made a bunch of big plays but the same negatives that had him at the bottom of the depth chart after camp are still there.
i assume he's going to be more expensive than they want but curious if they even want him back. he's obviously made a bunch of big plays but the same negatives that had him at the bottom of the depth chart after camp are still there.
they dont believe he will be expensive
RE: RE: outeiroj are they considering bringing back slayton?
i assume he's going to be more expensive than they want but curious if they even want him back. he's obviously made a bunch of big plays but the same negatives that had him at the bottom of the depth chart after camp are still there.
they dont believe he will be expensive
that doesn't add up with how bad the FA class is. otc has his performance valued at 7.1m and last year at least a few WRs who i dont think are any better than him got 7m, 8m, 10m. Cedrick Wilson, Zay Jones, DJ Chark, Russell Gage, Marquez Valdez Scantling types.
RE: RE: RE: outeiroj are they considering bringing back slayton?
i assume he's going to be more expensive than they want but curious if they even want him back. he's obviously made a bunch of big plays but the same negatives that had him at the bottom of the depth chart after camp are still there.
they dont believe he will be expensive
that doesn't add up with how bad the FA class is. otc has his performance valued at 7.1m and last year at least a few WRs who i dont think are any better than him got 7m, 8m, 10m. Cedrick Wilson, Zay Jones, DJ Chark, Russell Gage, Marquez Valdez Scantling types.
:shrug:
above average speed, below average hands, average routes at best, belief he can be replaced after round 3. If its not a favorable contract don't expect a signing
RE: there is this part of me that kept thinking the Giants
and his legs continue to be a source of concern. Giants won't be able to keep all their homegrown talent as they build and get more pricey, and he's already down the priority ladder, imo.
RE: I've written this before, Ojulari's more of a different system fit
and his legs continue to be a source of concern. Giants won't be able to keep all their homegrown talent as they build and get more pricey, and he's already down the priority ladder, imo.
Agree, look to draft a new, better fit...Ojulari in the next draft or two
DJ extension rumored before playoffs? Odd, but as it is with most leaks related to contracts it is probably his agents. I was a pretty firm believer in letting it play out to the offseason, but I guess the benefit is that, while hasty, the Giants are going to bring him back and the numbers really only go up with more playoff win or two and other teams potentially interested. Diving into some numbers:
DJ 2022 Stats
- 7th in QBR
- 6th in Comp%
- 1st in Int%
- 21st in Pass TD
- 5th in QB Rush Yards
- Tied for 3rd in QB Run TD
- Tied 2nd in GWD; 3rd in 4Q comebacks
- 69.2% Total offensive yards
- 26th in Sck%
- 25th in pass Y/G
Additional Context:
- 1 WR in top 50 of rec yards (Slayton 47th)
- 3 Receiving threats in top 150 of rec yards (Slayton 47th, Richie James 66th, Barkley 137th)
- 7th in Red zone offense scoring efficiency
- 4th in Rush yards (24th without DJ's yards)
Entering the season we wanted this:
- Reduce turnovers —> 22 Total TD to 7 Turnovers
- Make the Playoffs —> Wildcard berth
- Elevate the team —> WR 1-4 out/traded/benched, TE1 injured for 5 games, Multiple OL injured for several games but efficiency remains high
Now, by all measures, DJ has proved himself and gone out to satisfy what we were looking for. I think you can see with your eyes and the numbers that a great deal of it is efficiency related to coaching but Jones's skillset is favorable for a versatile offense that is trying to control the clock. Jones needs Daboll more than Daboll needs Jones IMO given that it has now taken him 3 head coaches to finally become an efficient, playoff caliber QB.
Do you try to extend before this game, or do you continue to wait until the offseason?
Edit:
Albert Breer/NFL insider on Twitter Live:
https://twitter.com/NYGiantsLife/sta...99z6BiVdYJgMQA
Maybe we should just tag Jones and then get a rookie QB in place in the next draft or subsequent one.
1. The idea that you need a QB on his rookie contract to win the SB isn't based on reality. Only 1 (Mahomes) of the last 8 or so SB winning QBs was on his rookie contract.
2. The idea that it's easy to find a franchise QB in the draft is WAY not based on reality. The draft is a total crapshoot, especially for QBs. Based on historical stats, even a QB drafted in the first round, is about TEN times more likely to fail than to become even a decent franchise QB.
3. The idea that $35M AAV for Jones is going to hamstring the Giants isn't based on reality. That's barely top ten money for an ascending QB who's already performing in the top ten, with room to improve (especially with better receivers). The rumored contract could look like a bargain in a year or two.
4. Let the professionals worry about the cap.
Maybe we should just tag Jones and then get a rookie QB in place in the next draft or subsequent one.
1. The idea that you need a QB on his rookie contract to win the SB isn't based on reality. Only 1 (Mahomes) of the last 8 or so SB winning QBs was on his rookie contract.
2. The idea that it's easy to find a franchise QB in the draft is WAY not based on reality. The draft is a total crapshoot, especially for QBs. Based on historical stats, even a QB drafted in the first round, is about TEN times more likely to fail than to become even a decent franchise QB.
3. The idea that $35M AAV for Jones is going to hamstring the Giants isn't based on reality. That's barely top ten money for an ascending QB who's already performing in the top ten, with room to improve (especially with better receivers). The rumored contract could look like a bargain in a year or two.
4. Let the professionals worry about the cap.
Not true Doc. You had Philly in 2017. Yes Foles finished it but still a much cheaper combo Wentz/Foles then a high priced QB.
2000's. Manning, BR, Brady you could say 2 or 3 times.
2010's. Wilson, Foles/Wentz, Flacco, Mahomes.
What I find more interesting is looking at the most expensive QB to win it as a percentage of the Cap. I believe this would be Manning '11, BR '09 and Stafford '21. Brady always seemed to take a discount. I don't know the percentages for these QB's but it seems to be going higher imv.
Leonard Williams is not replaceable by anyone we will be in position to draft, have on the roster, or sign in FA.
Saquon is probably replaceable using a 2 or even 3. Running game would probably be worse, but lots of college RBs could improve the passing game over SB.
there are 2 things the cap can be used for:
1. signing expensive free agents (9/10 get overpaid)
2. extending homegrown players (which can only be done if you draft good players worth extending in the first place, which nyg didnt do in the 2010's)
the nyg had very little cap room the year they tagged leonard williams and then they added jackson and golladay. the golladay manipulation obviously didn't work out but the jackson manipulation did because he's a good player. they had very little room the year they signed solder too, which was again an evaluation problem not a contract problem. if he was andrew whitworth instead it would have been fine.
big FA contracts are problematic because the outcomes can be extreme and hard to predict. the contracts are obviously easily predictable. finding players who play up to the contracts is the problem.
RE: RE: This is like shopping for cars with my wife...
keeping with the car analogy is that the car market right now sucks - it's been hit hard by supply chain issues, inflation, demand is high, supply is low....which is why cars cost so much right now.
Which kinda sounds like what the QB market sounds like it's going to be this offseason.
in a tough market b/c they worry about the same thing many on BBI worry about...if I don't pay the Lexus price for the Hyundai, then I'm going to end up with a 1970 Ford Pinto.
...by overpaying for low value. They substitute Uber and Lyft until the car market is restored from insane levels of inflation. Or they find themselves parking their Mercedes right next to a van down by the river...
A lot of people seem to be hung up on the AAV but it seems pretty logical where it will land given recent contracts and factoring in cap inflation. The big issue should be structure and guarantees. I like Jones but he has had 1 good year, a smart front office should prepare for the downside risk. As long there is a logical out early in the deal, then I am fine with a high AAV extension. That Kyler deal is the one I'd be worried about emulating but no issue with the types signed by Goff/Wentz recently.
RE: RE: RE: Just don’t know how we are going to afford all this talent over
Maybe we should just tag Jones and then get a rookie QB in place in the next draft or subsequent one.
1. The idea that you need a QB on his rookie contract to win the SB isn't based on reality. Only 1 (Mahomes) of the last 8 or so SB winning QBs was on his rookie contract.
2. The idea that it's easy to find a franchise QB in the draft is WAY not based on reality. The draft is a total crapshoot, especially for QBs. Based on historical stats, even a QB drafted in the first round, is about TEN times more likely to fail than to become even a decent franchise QB.
3. The idea that $35M AAV for Jones is going to hamstring the Giants isn't based on reality. That's barely top ten money for an ascending QB who's already performing in the top ten, with room to improve (especially with better receivers). The rumored contract could look like a bargain in a year or two.
4. Let the professionals worry about the cap.
Not true Doc. You had Philly in 2017. Yes Foles finished it but still a much cheaper combo Wentz/Foles then a high priced QB.
2000's. Manning, BR, Brady you could say 2 or 3 times.
2010's. Wilson, Foles/Wentz, Flacco, Mahomes.
What I find more interesting is looking at the most expensive QB to win it as a percentage of the Cap. I believe this would be Manning '11, BR '09 and Stafford '21. Brady always seemed to take a discount. I don't know the percentages for these QB's but it seems to be going higher imv.
LOS, I respect your opinion. But Foles was the QB that won that SB and he wasn't on his rookie contract. His contract ($5.5M) was higher than a typical backup (he may have been the highest paid backup at the time). It's true the combined salary of Foles and Wentz (about $12-13M) was lower than what we're talking (but all QBs contracts were lower 5-6 yrs ago. e.g., Peyton had AAV of about $19M w/ Broncos around that time).
Foles had a winning record over 5 combined yrs with the eagles. A really good winning record of 21-11 and a higher winning % than Wentz had over 5 yrs.
The world will never know whether the eagles would've won that year with Foles all year. There were plenty of rumors that his teammates respected him more than they did Wentz. It's possible they wouldn't have won it with Wentz.
So, what I said was accurate, with '17 being more nuanced. If you want, we can say 6 out of the last 8 SB teams didn't have a QB on their rookie contract.
As far as I'm concerned, I wish the NFL had a % cap on individual players. For example, let's say no individual can exceed 15 or 18% of the total team cap.
If you're going to have a team cap, why can't there be an individual cap? Spread the wealth and we wouldn't have someone like Aaron Rodgers getting 50M, while several teammates get 1M.
Has this correct,IMHO
5/$200MM
With $100MM guaranteed
2 yr commitment for us with the 3rd yr essentially an option
This is something THAT BOTH SIDES can sign off on
A lot of people seem to be hung up on the AAV but it seems pretty logical where it will land given recent contracts and factoring in cap inflation. The big issue should be structure and guarantees. I like Jones but he has had 1 good year, a smart front office should prepare for the downside risk. As long there is a logical out early in the deal, then I am fine with a high AAV extension. That Kyler deal is the one I'd be worried about emulating but no issue with the types signed by Goff/Wentz recently.
I agree. The Kyler Murray contract may be an albatross for that franchise for the next decade. My issue with the Carson Wentz contract is not the dollars part, it is the Carson Wentz part.
but bottom line ojulari is the type of player there's no rush to extend because he's probably not a core player (but more of a great role player).
thomas and lawrence i think have clearly moved themselves into the building block category. you'd hate to lose either of them even if you got 2 first round picks back.
Yes, cannot waste money on a guys that cannot stay on the field. Shame.
It's a good year to consider it, too. Even with Verse going back to FSU.
With their other big needs at WR and CB and Ojulari having two years left next year would work as well.
Wink didn't want to lose JB but they couldnt afford to keep him, look for something in draft unless they can find someone who fits in FA. he values db's and he wants another ER he can trust, watch for some ravens cast offs, maybe some guys coming off injury on prove it deals.
they dont believe he will be expensive
Quote:
i assume he's going to be more expensive than they want but curious if they even want him back. he's obviously made a bunch of big plays but the same negatives that had him at the bottom of the depth chart after camp are still there.
they dont believe he will be expensive
that doesn't add up with how bad the FA class is. otc has his performance valued at 7.1m and last year at least a few WRs who i dont think are any better than him got 7m, 8m, 10m. Cedrick Wilson, Zay Jones, DJ Chark, Russell Gage, Marquez Valdez Scantling types.
Quote:
In comment 15986640 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
i assume he's going to be more expensive than they want but curious if they even want him back. he's obviously made a bunch of big plays but the same negatives that had him at the bottom of the depth chart after camp are still there.
they dont believe he will be expensive
that doesn't add up with how bad the FA class is. otc has his performance valued at 7.1m and last year at least a few WRs who i dont think are any better than him got 7m, 8m, 10m. Cedrick Wilson, Zay Jones, DJ Chark, Russell Gage, Marquez Valdez Scantling types.
:shrug:
above average speed, below average hands, average routes at best, belief he can be replaced after round 3. If its not a favorable contract don't expect a signing
Works for me. You can never have enough, you know.
Agree, look to draft a new, better fit...Ojulari in the next draft or two
DJ 2022 Stats
- 7th in QBR
- 6th in Comp%
- 1st in Int%
- 21st in Pass TD
- 5th in QB Rush Yards
- Tied for 3rd in QB Run TD
- Tied 2nd in GWD; 3rd in 4Q comebacks
- 69.2% Total offensive yards
- 26th in Sck%
- 25th in pass Y/G
Additional Context:
- 1 WR in top 50 of rec yards (Slayton 47th)
- 3 Receiving threats in top 150 of rec yards (Slayton 47th, Richie James 66th, Barkley 137th)
- 7th in Red zone offense scoring efficiency
- 4th in Rush yards (24th without DJ's yards)
Entering the season we wanted this:
- Reduce turnovers —> 22 Total TD to 7 Turnovers
- Make the Playoffs —> Wildcard berth
- Elevate the team —> WR 1-4 out/traded/benched, TE1 injured for 5 games, Multiple OL injured for several games but efficiency remains high
Now, by all measures, DJ has proved himself and gone out to satisfy what we were looking for. I think you can see with your eyes and the numbers that a great deal of it is efficiency related to coaching but Jones's skillset is favorable for a versatile offense that is trying to control the clock. Jones needs Daboll more than Daboll needs Jones IMO given that it has now taken him 3 head coaches to finally become an efficient, playoff caliber QB.
Do you try to extend before this game, or do you continue to wait until the offseason?
Edit:
Albert Breer/NFL insider on Twitter Live:
https://twitter.com/NYGiantsLife/sta...99z6BiVdYJgMQA
15 mil/year would be a bargain IMO
sorry this is correct link:
https://twitter.com/NYGiantsLife/status/1612642893339959302?s=20&t=A-qkTo_599z6BiVdYJgMQA
Maybe we should just tag Jones and then get a rookie QB in place in the next draft or subsequent one.
He is NOT signing for that..
Maybe we should just tag Jones and then get a rookie QB in place in the next draft or subsequent one.
Simple, every other team does it. Players get paid and some move on to greener pastures.
At $32 to $35 mill Jones is really not that expensive.
Maybe we should just tag Jones and then get a rookie QB in place in the next draft or subsequent one.
1. The idea that you need a QB on his rookie contract to win the SB isn't based on reality. Only 1 (Mahomes) of the last 8 or so SB winning QBs was on his rookie contract.
2. The idea that it's easy to find a franchise QB in the draft is WAY not based on reality. The draft is a total crapshoot, especially for QBs. Based on historical stats, even a QB drafted in the first round, is about TEN times more likely to fail than to become even a decent franchise QB.
3. The idea that $35M AAV for Jones is going to hamstring the Giants isn't based on reality. That's barely top ten money for an ascending QB who's already performing in the top ten, with room to improve (especially with better receivers). The rumored contract could look like a bargain in a year or two.
4. Let the professionals worry about the cap.
Quote:
https://twitter.com/NYGiantsLife/sta...99z6BiVdYJgMQA
sorry this is correct link:
https://twitter.com/NYGiantsLife/status/1612642893339959302?s=20&t=A-qkTo_599z6BiVdYJgMQA
This guy is an idiot that would be laughed off BBI.
Quote:
the next few years. Lol.
Maybe we should just tag Jones and then get a rookie QB in place in the next draft or subsequent one.
1. The idea that you need a QB on his rookie contract to win the SB isn't based on reality. Only 1 (Mahomes) of the last 8 or so SB winning QBs was on his rookie contract.
2. The idea that it's easy to find a franchise QB in the draft is WAY not based on reality. The draft is a total crapshoot, especially for QBs. Based on historical stats, even a QB drafted in the first round, is about TEN times more likely to fail than to become even a decent franchise QB.
3. The idea that $35M AAV for Jones is going to hamstring the Giants isn't based on reality. That's barely top ten money for an ascending QB who's already performing in the top ten, with room to improve (especially with better receivers). The rumored contract could look like a bargain in a year or two.
4. Let the professionals worry about the cap.
Not true Doc. You had Philly in 2017. Yes Foles finished it but still a much cheaper combo Wentz/Foles then a high priced QB.
2000's. Manning, BR, Brady you could say 2 or 3 times.
2010's. Wilson, Foles/Wentz, Flacco, Mahomes.
What I find more interesting is looking at the most expensive QB to win it as a percentage of the Cap. I believe this would be Manning '11, BR '09 and Stafford '21. Brady always seemed to take a discount. I don't know the percentages for these QB's but it seems to be going higher imv.
Saquon is probably replaceable using a 2 or even 3. Running game would probably be worse, but lots of college RBs could improve the passing game over SB.
My fear is we could have purchased a Hyundai (draft) that performs like a Lexus. ;)
It’s going to be somewhere around $25-30 a year on a 2 or 3 year deal.
It’s likely to be closer to 40 and 5 years.
It’s going to be somewhere around $25-30 a year on a 2 or 3 year deal.
That works for me!
1. signing expensive free agents (9/10 get overpaid)
2. extending homegrown players (which can only be done if you draft good players worth extending in the first place, which nyg didnt do in the 2010's)
the nyg had very little cap room the year they tagged leonard williams and then they added jackson and golladay. the golladay manipulation obviously didn't work out but the jackson manipulation did because he's a good player. they had very little room the year they signed solder too, which was again an evaluation problem not a contract problem. if he was andrew whitworth instead it would have been fine.
big FA contracts are problematic because the outcomes can be extreme and hard to predict. the contracts are obviously easily predictable. finding players who play up to the contracts is the problem.
Quote:
she wants a Lexus but wants it to cost like a Hyundai.
My fear is we could have purchased a Hyundai (draft) that performs like a Lexus. ;)
Ha! I think we're buying a Toyota and hopefully pay a Toyota price (which is not cheap today)
A Carson Wentz contract would be a disaster for this franchise at this moment with everything Schoen needs to do to elevate the roster.
Which kinda sounds like what the QB market sounds like it's going to be this offseason.
Quote:
In comment 15986840 chick310 said:
Quote:
the next few years. Lol.
Maybe we should just tag Jones and then get a rookie QB in place in the next draft or subsequent one.
1. The idea that you need a QB on his rookie contract to win the SB isn't based on reality. Only 1 (Mahomes) of the last 8 or so SB winning QBs was on his rookie contract.
2. The idea that it's easy to find a franchise QB in the draft is WAY not based on reality. The draft is a total crapshoot, especially for QBs. Based on historical stats, even a QB drafted in the first round, is about TEN times more likely to fail than to become even a decent franchise QB.
3. The idea that $35M AAV for Jones is going to hamstring the Giants isn't based on reality. That's barely top ten money for an ascending QB who's already performing in the top ten, with room to improve (especially with better receivers). The rumored contract could look like a bargain in a year or two.
4. Let the professionals worry about the cap.
Not true Doc. You had Philly in 2017. Yes Foles finished it but still a much cheaper combo Wentz/Foles then a high priced QB.
2000's. Manning, BR, Brady you could say 2 or 3 times.
2010's. Wilson, Foles/Wentz, Flacco, Mahomes.
What I find more interesting is looking at the most expensive QB to win it as a percentage of the Cap. I believe this would be Manning '11, BR '09 and Stafford '21. Brady always seemed to take a discount. I don't know the percentages for these QB's but it seems to be going higher imv.
LOS, I respect your opinion. But Foles was the QB that won that SB and he wasn't on his rookie contract. His contract ($5.5M) was higher than a typical backup (he may have been the highest paid backup at the time). It's true the combined salary of Foles and Wentz (about $12-13M) was lower than what we're talking (but all QBs contracts were lower 5-6 yrs ago. e.g., Peyton had AAV of about $19M w/ Broncos around that time).
Foles had a winning record over 5 combined yrs with the eagles. A really good winning record of 21-11 and a higher winning % than Wentz had over 5 yrs.
The world will never know whether the eagles would've won that year with Foles all year. There were plenty of rumors that his teammates respected him more than they did Wentz. It's possible they wouldn't have won it with Wentz.
So, what I said was accurate, with '17 being more nuanced. If you want, we can say 6 out of the last 8 SB teams didn't have a QB on their rookie contract.
As far as I'm concerned, I wish the NFL had a % cap on individual players. For example, let's say no individual can exceed 15 or 18% of the total team cap.
If you're going to have a team cap, why can't there be an individual cap? Spread the wealth and we wouldn't have someone like Aaron Rodgers getting 50M, while several teammates get 1M.
5/$200MM
With $100MM guaranteed
2 yr commitment for us with the 3rd yr essentially an option
This is something THAT BOTH SIDES can sign off on
I agree. The Kyler Murray contract may be an albatross for that franchise for the next decade. My issue with the Carson Wentz contract is not the dollars part, it is the Carson Wentz part.