....while nothings changed in terms of DJ and the Giants wanting to be a part of each others future, there have been some discussions where if they can't agree on a longer deal, a shorter deal might be on the table (2-3 years) although its not what either team truly wants.
Also yesterday I mentioned I was told they would likely not announce until after the vikings game even if the deal was done... apparently that sentiment has changed and if they can finalize by friday they would likely announce prior, as his contract and the belief in DJ has nothing to do with the playoff game. In other words, if he has a bad game and then they announce they are concerned with optics and possible fan outrage vs. going into the game with the message "this is our guy" regardless of outcome.
the math can work a few different ways and there are pros and cons for both sides. the longer the deal the more upside for giants, the shorter the deal the more upside for jones. i dont expect the giants downside to change too much because there'd be a decent chunk of downside risk if they do 2x tags and QB prices continue to inflate.
here's the general math based on the length i think tracks with the kyler comp (and your info). the key questions are how many do extra years do the nyg want to buy now? how tough does jones rep get on 4th year guarantees?
start with the 2 years/78m tag amounts.
+1 year more year = +30-35m
+2 years = +75-85m
+3 years = +115-130m
i expect any deal gives jones around 100m guaranteed which is +22m over the tags while also locking those in and the only question is how many extra non-guaranteed years (at higher AAVs) is he willing to lock into?
Team Jones is in a pretty low leverage situation. He's not the type of player who is seriously going to sit out a year if he's franchised.
I also hope and believe the Giants want him to prove more, before getting a seat at the top 10 table. Meaning, go do it again in 2024, and get more guaranteed.
The only other possible card Team Jones holds is Better sign me now, or I'll cost more later. But all parties know he's not signing a contract at a massive discount proportional to his future level of play.
I believe the basic structure will be built around the value of 2 franchise tags ~75M. Dressed up as a 5/200M deal.
- This gives Team Jones a big lump sum (my guess 40M) as a signing bonus in March, instead of getting paid 31.5M on a schedule in 2023
- He mitigates the risk of getting injured or regressing in 2023 by netting 43M additional dollars (above being franchised)
I also believe the contract will include a trigger that another ~25M in 2025 will become guaranteed, if he's simply on the 2024 roster (Mahomes has a bunch of these triggers for instance)
Herbert has had a tough year, mainly due to injuries to his OL, WRs, and himself. His head coach is a nutter, their whole offense is suffering from the lack of a running game and diversity of attack. He played with busted ribs for a month or more. Yet, he's still throws for 4700 yards and 25 TDs and he's got all the tools. Top 5 talent, been talking him up since Soph year at Oregon.
Jones is in the ~15 tier now. I expect upgrades at WR etc to help him, but the gaps I see in his game are more mental, instincts, vision. I'd expect Daboll to say there's always one man open in a passing concept, it's the QB's job to find him. Jones is still a work in progress in this aspect, as well as his decision making. As good as he was in MIN, there were a few hiccups that really cost them. Keep on growing.
Herbert's talent around him is vastly superior to Jones. Yet, aside from yards(1500 more) they are pretty close and Jones barely threw the 1st 6-8 games. I am certainly not saying Jones is as good or better than Herbert, but I am not so certain that the gap isn't closing.
Hey, 3 weeks ago I was all for letting Jones go and looking for another QB. I did not see the value in a 2nd contract and what that eats up in $$$. But since WFT 2nd game to me, he is a different player.
Yes Herbert was hurt, and so was Jones with the ankle - not the same degree but taking the wheels away from Jones is losing a lot of offense for the Giants.
I do think what we have seen recently is above mid level(15th) - 10-12 range.
Team Jones is in a pretty low leverage situation. He's not the type of player who is seriously going to sit out a year if he's franchised.
He 100% wouldn't sit out the year. And he does not have any leverage nor are they trying to use "leverage". Its been very amicable, team Jones isn't even asking for more guaranteed, they just want the language to have something in it that makes it less easy for the giants to cut bait in year 4 which could be as simple as a bonus for 2026 triggering for being on the roster for the first day of 2025 or something similar
This franchise is headed for a world of trouble...
It is not that big a difference, now. I will grant you I want to see it continue because 3 games is a tease and could very well fall off the cliff. However, knowing what we know about Daboll and Schoen, if they see a viable QB then perhaps we should sit back and take notice.
here at BBI where everyone knows Daniel (although most here probably just call him Dan) Jones to be able to speak to what his feelings are on the current contract negotiations.
Team Jones is in a pretty low leverage situation. He's not the type of player who is seriously going to sit out a year if he's franchised.
He 100% wouldn't sit out the year. And he does not have any leverage nor are they trying to use "leverage". Its been very amicable, team Jones isn't even asking for more guaranteed, they just want the language to have something in it that makes it less easy for the giants to cut bait in year 4 which could be as simple as a bonus for 2026 triggering for being on the roster for the first day of 2025 or something similar
Gotcha. Makes sense Team Jones is being amicable (Schoen went of his way to say he liked both reps) and they sort of have to be.
Just my view/preference -- coming off only one good & healthy NFL year -- Schoen should apply that trigger logic to year 3 not 4.
Team Jones is in a pretty low leverage situation. He's not the type of player who is seriously going to sit out a year if he's franchised.
He 100% wouldn't sit out the year. And he does not have any leverage nor are they trying to use "leverage". Its been very amicable, team Jones isn't even asking for more guaranteed, they just want the language to have something in it that makes it less easy for the giants to cut bait in year 4 which could be as simple as a bonus for 2026 triggering for being on the roster for the first day of 2025 or something similar
Gotcha. Makes sense Team Jones is being amicable (Schoen went of his way to say he liked both reps) and they sort of have to be.
Just my view/preference -- coming off only one good & healthy NFL year -- Schoen should apply that trigger logic to year 3 not 4.
Told schoen is a very easy going type of guy and does a good job making people feel like they are important while still being able to make tough decisions. If the giants are truly 100% in on jones im not so sure they dont cave, guess we'll see.
Herbert has had a tough year, mainly due to injuries to his OL, WRs, and himself. His head coach is a nutter, their whole offense is suffering from the lack of a running game and diversity of attack. He played with busted ribs for a month or more. Yet, he's still throws for 4700 yards and 25 TDs and he's got all the tools. Top 5 talent, been talking him up since Soph year at Oregon.
Jones is in the ~15 tier now. I expect upgrades at WR etc to help him, but the gaps I see in his game are more mental, instincts, vision. I'd expect Daboll to say there's always one man open in a passing concept, it's the QB's job to find him. Jones is still a work in progress in this aspect, as well as his decision making. As good as he was in MIN, there were a few hiccups that really cost them. Keep on growing.
Herbert's talent around him is vastly superior to Jones. Yet, aside from yards(1500 more) they are pretty close and Jones barely threw the 1st 6-8 games. I am certainly not saying Jones is as good or better than Herbert, but I am not so certain that the gap isn't closing.
Hey, 3 weeks ago I was all for letting Jones go and looking for another QB. I did not see the value in a 2nd contract and what that eats up in $$$. But since WFT 2nd game to me, he is a different player.
Yes Herbert was hurt, and so was Jones with the ankle - not the same degree but taking the wheels away from Jones is losing a lot of offense for the Giants.
I do think what we have seen recently is above mid level(15th) - 10-12 range.
The talent around him sat on the injured list a big chunk of the season. Allen missed 7 games, MW missed 4 and played injured, Ekeler basically had no properly utilized backup. If you watch the Chargers, it's like watching a mash unit coordinated by a nutter. Not to mention Slater was out. Give me JH 10 times out of 10 over Jones.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: fwiw, if the info is solid
Herbert has had a tough year, mainly due to injuries to his OL, WRs, and himself. His head coach is a nutter, their whole offense is suffering from the lack of a running game and diversity of attack. He played with busted ribs for a month or more. Yet, he's still throws for 4700 yards and 25 TDs and he's got all the tools. Top 5 talent, been talking him up since Soph year at Oregon.
Jones is in the ~15 tier now. I expect upgrades at WR etc to help him, but the gaps I see in his game are more mental, instincts, vision. I'd expect Daboll to say there's always one man open in a passing concept, it's the QB's job to find him. Jones is still a work in progress in this aspect, as well as his decision making. As good as he was in MIN, there were a few hiccups that really cost them. Keep on growing.
Herbert's talent around him is vastly superior to Jones. Yet, aside from yards(1500 more) they are pretty close and Jones barely threw the 1st 6-8 games. I am certainly not saying Jones is as good or better than Herbert, but I am not so certain that the gap isn't closing.
Hey, 3 weeks ago I was all for letting Jones go and looking for another QB. I did not see the value in a 2nd contract and what that eats up in $$$. But since WFT 2nd game to me, he is a different player.
Yes Herbert was hurt, and so was Jones with the ankle - not the same degree but taking the wheels away from Jones is losing a lot of offense for the Giants.
I do think what we have seen recently is above mid level(15th) - 10-12 range.
The talent around him sat on the injured list a big chunk of the season. Allen missed 7 games, MW missed 4 and played injured, Ekeler basically had no properly utilized backup. If you watch the Chargers, it's like watching a mash unit coordinated by a nutter. Not to mention Slater was out. Give me JH 10 times out of 10 over Jones.
dont disagree but I think its safe to say that herbert will cost 15-20m more per year
....while nothings changed in terms of DJ and the Giants wanting to be a part of each others future, there have been some discussions where if they can't agree on a longer deal, a shorter deal might be on the table (2-3 years) although its not what either team truly wants.
Also yesterday I mentioned I was told they would likely not announce until after the vikings game even if the deal was done... apparently that sentiment has changed and if they can finalize by friday they would likely announce prior, as his contract and the belief in DJ has nothing to do with the playoff game. In other words, if he has a bad game and then they announce they are concerned with optics and possible fan outrage vs. going into the game with the message "this is our guy" regardless of outcome.
Good stuff. Thanks for sharing.
Based on your contact, which side is taking the harder line?
I know you are just the messenger, but it would seem more prudent to pause any talk until the the season is officially over. Let's see how Jones handles the biggest circumstances of his career. Playoffs are just such a different experience.
I think Jones is a below average passer. An offense that passes the ball downfield more will lead to much higher INT rates. I do not think Jones will ever be a 30 TD and 10 guy, for example. If he's throwing for 30 TDs, I think we are seeing 15-20 INTs. I don't really like his game on intermediate routes (I'd be curious if there are passing stats by route distance available).
He can keep turnovers low but with limited passing production. That's a valuable skill - especially when combined with his legs. It's not as valuable as Burrow or Herbert's passing IMO.
But maybe it all changed the past few weeks. I really liked those Vikings and Colts game from him. That Colts game was an objectively spectacular effort.
I think your assessment of Jones is about right. I don't think anything has changed though on the last few weeks. Every QB goes through ups and downs. For Jones, Minny and Indy were an up, for sure. But don't let recency bias cloud your assessment of the player.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: fwiw, if the info is solid
I like Jones, but there's a lot of gaps in his game and I'd rather not lock in on him for multi-years. Despite the positive growth, he's still an average NFL passer and that's a big gap if you're talking about trying to build a perennial contender. Anyway, will stop there.
If they draft their own QB while Jones is under contract, the prospect will probably need time to develop anyway.
I have began to watch other QBs closely to how it appears Jones lines up. Aside from the obvious few (Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Rodgers) he is not that far from being in that 2nd tier and to me that includes Herbert. My only issue is basically it is the last three games in which he seems to have reached that level. Does it stick or was it an aberration?
The Vikings game will be important in my view, although I think the Giants are already sold.
it appears they're stuck between three and four years, so five wouldn't seem to be on the table atm.
That’s not what outeiroj said above . And he said both sides were in agreement on the basic structure which seemed to be a 5 year deal. Year 4 guarantees were the sticking point.
You can see the effects of lack of sleep over here. Well, that is not good news to my ears.
As someone who highly respects your opinion Jon you seem pretty dug in on this. It’s unlike your normal quite reasonable and informed takes.
I like Jones, but there's a lot of gaps in his game and I'd rather not lock in on him for multi-years. Despite the positive growth, he's still an average NFL passer and that's a big gap if you're talking about trying to build a perennial contender. Anyway, will stop there.
If they draft their own QB while Jones is under contract, the prospect will probably need time to develop anyway.
I have great respect for your insights but Jones is not a league average passer. He may be a league average QB, due to the running component of his game. But he is a below average passer. Below the likes of Cousins, JimmyG, even Carr.
Let him lead his team to a SB. This is the NFCE and NFC.
We just need Jones to lead this team. With the parameters discussed contract wise they deal can invest heavily in the D. That has the quickest path to being elite.
Jones and the team advance a bit in the pass game and will keep a similar run/balance as this year. When they need to pass more the hope is you can play that way too. WR's added. Finish the IOL.
This wins SB's. Reevaluate a couple years into it. Keep a eye on the draft.
I like Jones, but there's a lot of gaps in his game and I'd rather not lock in on him for multi-years. Despite the positive growth, he's still an average NFL passer and that's a big gap if you're talking about trying to build a perennial contender. Anyway, will stop there.
If they draft their own QB while Jones is under contract, the prospect will probably need time to develop anyway.
I have began to watch other QBs closely to how it appears Jones lines up. Aside from the obvious few (Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Rodgers) he is not that far from being in that 2nd tier and to me that includes Herbert. My only issue is basically it is the last three games in which he seems to have reached that level. Does it stick or was it an aberration?
The Vikings game will be important in my view, although I think the Giants are already sold.
Herbert has had a tough year, mainly due to injuries to his OL, WRs, and himself. His head coach is a nutter, their whole offense is suffering from the lack of a running game and diversity of attack. He played with busted ribs for a month or more. Yet, he's still throws for 4700 yards and 25 TDs and he's got all the tools. Top 5 talent, been talking him up since Soph year at Oregon.
Jones is in the ~15 tier now. I expect upgrades at WR etc to help him, but the gaps I see in his game are more mental, instincts, vision. I'd expect Daboll to say there's always one man open in a passing concept, it's the QB's job to find him. Jones is still a work in progress in this aspect, as well as his decision making. As good as he was in MIN, there were a few hiccups that really cost them. Keep on growing.
I guess it doesn't matter that Daboll keeps saying he makes good decisions. Of course you know more than Daboll.
If you have something you'd like to address to me, I suggest doing it without snark. I played the game, am able to understand what I see on TV or film, I share my views and opinions with evidence to support them.
Daboll can have his opinion, and so can I. Don't read if you doesn't suit your agenda.
....while nothings changed in terms of DJ and the Giants wanting to be a part of each others future, there have been some discussions where if they can't agree on a longer deal, a shorter deal might be on the table (2-3 years) although its not what either team truly wants.
Also yesterday I mentioned I was told they would likely not announce until after the vikings game even if the deal was done... apparently that sentiment has changed and if they can finalize by friday they would likely announce prior, as his contract and the belief in DJ has nothing to do with the playoff game. In other words, if he has a bad game and then they announce they are concerned with optics and possible fan outrage vs. going into the game with the message "this is our guy" regardless of outcome.
Good stuff. Thanks for sharing.
Based on your contact, which side is taking the harder line?
I know you are just the messenger, but it would seem more prudent to pause any talk until the the season is officially over. Let's see how Jones handles the biggest circumstances of his career. Playoffs are just such a different experience.
neither. it seems its just 2 sides talking as if it were a casual conversation obviously there are some differences on the structure but no one is taking even a little bit of a hard line approach
RE: RE: RE: RE: Breer is right on the band aide type contact
Of course there isn't a 5 year deal out there. There aren't ANY deals out there. YET. He's not a FA until March. Until then, the only contract any team can offer is NYG.
First off - the 4/135 deal I put out there is 5/10 million AAV MORE than what you are putting out there. Not sure where you are getting your math from.
Second - for the 5 year deal, that was a typo on my part, should have been 5/170, not 5/160
Team Jones knows what deals are out there from other teams. Sure it violates the rules but everyone does it and it’s how you negotiate. The Giants have an idea of what his market value is too, so you can’t just walk in demanding $45 million for 6 years and then get your bluff called.
And if the new asshat info is correct, it’s going to end up a 2-3 year deal live I’ve been saying for weeks, because that’s what his value is currently to other teams.
insiders here on BBI who speak in such absolutes about the interworkings of NFL teams as they negotiate contracts with their players based on market value.
insiders here on BBI who speak in such absolutes about the interworkings of NFL teams as they negotiate contracts with their players based on market value.
Amazing since that is the question BD was asked coming out of training camp regarding what he is looking for from Jones.
"Making good decisions under duress"
Seems satisfied for now to me.
He cited that all season long every time he got a DJ question.
The nuts and bolts of what the position comes down to. About a 1000 plays so I would say he has ample information to know where he potentially go. Certainly you have the execution side but that is easier to address and that is not only on Jones (OL/WR, etc.).
....while nothings changed in terms of DJ and the Giants wanting to be a part of each others future, there have been some discussions where if they can't agree on a longer deal, a shorter deal might be on the table (2-3 years) although its not what either team truly wants.
Also yesterday I mentioned I was told they would likely not announce until after the vikings game even if the deal was done... apparently that sentiment has changed and if they can finalize by friday they would likely announce prior, as his contract and the belief in DJ has nothing to do with the playoff game. In other words, if he has a bad game and then they announce they are concerned with optics and possible fan outrage vs. going into the game with the message "this is our guy" regardless of outcome.
Good stuff. Thanks for sharing.
Based on your contact, which side is taking the harder line?
I know you are just the messenger, but it would seem more prudent to pause any talk until the the season is officially over. Let's see how Jones handles the biggest circumstances of his career. Playoffs are just such a different experience.
It's quite stupid to base the contract off of a playoff game.
Continuing to move the goalpost, eh?
First it was "Let's see how he does this year". Then when he does well, you try to quantify it by saying, "he did well vs the Colts, but they're a bad team."
Now, it's "lets see how he does in his first playoff game".
Why do I get the feeling that, if he does well, you'll say "OK, but let's see how he does in the NEXT game".
PS - ELi did HORRIBLE in his first playoff game. And that was at home as the favorite (Jones is on the road as an underdog).
PPS - he didn't much better in his 2nd one, either.
Thankfully, NYG mgmt won't be stupid enough to base a long term contract on one playoff game like you would, but will instead base it on what they've seen over the course of this season. Not to mention what they have seen in practice every day...
insiders here on BBI who speak in such absolutes about the interworkings of NFL teams as they negotiate contracts with their players based on market value.
insiders here on BBI who speak in such absolutes about the interworkings of NFL teams as they negotiate contracts with their players based on market value.
Unbelievable.
Guess i'll just keep info to myself, enjoy
I don't think that was for you but Dnew can comment if he likes.
insiders here on BBI who speak in such absolutes about the interworkings of NFL teams as they negotiate contracts with their players based on market value.
Unbelievable.
If this is directed at me, I know plenty about how these negotiations work especially from the players side.
I consistently read around here, from many of your fellow members of the DJFC, that LJax isn't worth a big investment because of his playoff struggles. I think it's a reasonable point to a degree. But I would still weigh his regular season work more.
neither. it seems its just 2 sides talking as if it were a casual conversation obviously there are some differences on the structure but no one is taking even a little bit of a hard line approach
Thanks.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Breer is right on the band aide type contact
Of course there isn't a 5 year deal out there. There aren't ANY deals out there. YET. He's not a FA until March. Until then, the only contract any team can offer is NYG.
First off - the 4/135 deal I put out there is 5/10 million AAV MORE than what you are putting out there. Not sure where you are getting your math from.
Second - for the 5 year deal, that was a typo on my part, should have been 5/170, not 5/160
Team Jones knows what deals are out there from other teams. Sure it violates the rules but everyone does it and it’s how you negotiate. The Giants have an idea of what his market value is too, so you can’t just walk in demanding $45 million for 6 years and then get your bluff called.
And if the new asshat info is correct, it’s going to end up a 2-3 year deal live I’ve been saying for weeks, because that’s what his value is currently to other teams.
Do you really need to speak in such hyperbole? No one thinks that he;s worth 6/260. No one - not even his agent(s). So just stop with the nonsense.
The deal could very well end up being 2-3 years (by the way, you're not the only one who has been saying that "for weeks", so try to not hurt your hand patting yourself on the back). But I can pretty much guarantee it won't be at the the low end you stated (25/per). There is zero chance of that happening. Is a 3/100-105 possible, which would be close to the top end you stated (30)? Sure. How much of your deal would be guaranteed. I'd be shocked that, if a 3/100-105 wasn't all guaranteed.
And for the last time - we have no idea what the market is for his value because HE'S NOT A FREE AGENT YET. IMO, I'd be willing to bet someone would offer him a 4 year deal. Maybe even a 5. But if the Giants FT him (which seems likely in the event they don't work out a deal by the time FA rolls around), then we'll never know what the market thinks of him/
but this is game one. Just like a young QB learning the ropes early in his career the first playoff game should be looked at accordingly. Great if he excels but not reason to say he will get better with more chances and a better team.
Now someone that sets a trend in the playoffs over several times........
I consistently read around here, from many of your fellow members of the DJFC, that LJax isn't worth a big investment because of his playoff struggles. I think it's a reasonable point to a degree. But I would still weigh his regular season work more.
Hope that helps.
I've already explained several times that I'm not a member of the FC, but I guess you'll continue to ignore all those posts.
I think that DJAX isn't worth the contract he's supposedly asking for for two reasons 1) he's had very little playoff success over SEVERAL seasons), and 2) he's shown himself to be injury prone over several seasons.
The issue with Jones, of course, is they need to make a decision this year, since his contract is up. They could FT him and buy another year of performance, but a FT tag hamstrings what they can do resource wise in 2023. Which, given the limited resources they were able to surround him with this year, wouldn't really allow a full picture of what the guy can do next year, either. A catch-22 of sorts
Time will tell what they think of Jones. Heck, if you believe the inside info we've gotten on this thread, we could know as early as Friday.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Breer is right on the band aide type contact
Team Jones knows what deals are out there from other teams. Sure it violates the rules but everyone does it and it’s how you negotiate. The Giants have an idea of what his market value is too, so you can’t just walk in demanding $45 million for 6 years and then get your bluff called.
And if the new asshat info is correct, it’s going to end up a 2-3 year deal live I’ve been saying for weeks, because that’s what his value is currently to other teams.
I actually think Team Jones would have an interesting market if they were allowed to test it. And that's because there are so many possibilities:
+ Does Miami keep Tua?
+ What if Brady leaves Tampa?
+ What are the Raiders going to do at QB?
+ What does Carolina do to solve their QB and HC problems?
+ What are Washington's plans for QB?
+ What will the Jets do with Wilson?
+ What do they Saints do about their QB carousel?
+ What do the Colts do with their QB and HC needs?
IMV, with so much potential demand, I could see Team Jones thinking - and I will defer to your insights because you are close to more insider info - they could probably get at least the FT AAV in the market...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Breer is right on the band aide type contact
Do you really need to speak in such hyperbole? No one thinks that he;s worth 6/260. No one - not even his agent(s). So just stop with the nonsense.
Read what I wrote again. I wasn’t saying anyone thinks he’s worth that, it’s an example of Team Jones coming into the negotiations with an insanely high ask. I’m not even saying they would ask for that it’s just a random number as an example. Reading comprehension and critical thinking before calling things nonsense.
Quote:
The deal could very well end up being 2-3 years (by the way, you're not the only one who has been saying that "for weeks", so try to not hurt your hand patting yourself on the back). But I can pretty much guarantee it won't be at the the low end you stated (25/per). There is zero chance of that happening. Is a 3/100-105 possible, which would be close to the top end you stated (30)? Sure. How much of your deal would be guaranteed. I'd be shocked that, if a 3/100-105 wasn't all guaranteed.
And for the last time - we have no idea what the market is for his value because HE'S NOT A FREE AGENT YET. IMO, I'd be willing to bet someone would offer him a 4 year deal. Maybe even a 5. But if the Giants FT him (which seems likely in the event they don't work out a deal by the time FA rolls around), then we'll never know what the market thinks of him/
Did I ever say I was the only one saying it would be 2-3 years? No, I did not. Again reading comprehension and critical thinking. I said it would be 2-3 year deal because that’s what Team Jones knows is the highest offers in terms of years out on the market, which is what I said last week in a thread. That that’s the current market value to other teams when it comes to years. Team Jones has had conversations through back channels and they know what’s out there. If you don’t think that’s happened, you probably still believe in the Easter Bunny. Obviously that can chance if someone really wants Jones, but that’s what is currently out there. And it lines up with the asshat info.
IMV, with so much potential demand, I could see Team Jones thinking - and I will defer to your insights because you are close to more insider info - they could probably get at least the FT AAV in the market...
As things stand now any offer on the market that’s over two years is probably slightly below or at the FT value AAV, with the two year tag value as the guarantees.
All subject to change if and when he actually hits the open market.
I think that DJAX isn't worth the contract he's supposedly asking for for two reasons 1) he's had very little playoff success over SEVERAL seasons), and 2) he's shown himself to be injury prone over several seasons.
It's an interesting typo, considering this description could theoretically apply to both DJ and LJax without technically being false.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: fwiw, if the info is solid
Herbert has had a tough year, mainly due to injuries to his OL, WRs, and himself. His head coach is a nutter, their whole offense is suffering from the lack of a running game and diversity of attack. He played with busted ribs for a month or more. Yet, he's still throws for 4700 yards and 25 TDs and he's got all the tools. Top 5 talent, been talking him up since Soph year at Oregon.
Jones is in the ~15 tier now. I expect upgrades at WR etc to help him, but the gaps I see in his game are more mental, instincts, vision. I'd expect Daboll to say there's always one man open in a passing concept, it's the QB's job to find him. Jones is still a work in progress in this aspect, as well as his decision making. As good as he was in MIN, there were a few hiccups that really cost them. Keep on growing.
Herbert's talent around him is vastly superior to Jones. Yet, aside from yards(1500 more) they are pretty close and Jones barely threw the 1st 6-8 games. I am certainly not saying Jones is as good or better than Herbert, but I am not so certain that the gap isn't closing.
Hey, 3 weeks ago I was all for letting Jones go and looking for another QB. I did not see the value in a 2nd contract and what that eats up in $$$. But since WFT 2nd game to me, he is a different player.
Yes Herbert was hurt, and so was Jones with the ankle - not the same degree but taking the wheels away from Jones is losing a lot of offense for the Giants.
I do think what we have seen recently is above mid level(15th) - 10-12 range.
Holy shit. Can we please stop with the Herbert comparisons? You are comparing a down year for Herbert with fractured rib cartilage against a career year for Jones.
Last year Herbert had 5,000 yards passing, 300 yards rushing, and 41 total TDs (38 passing).
Be honest, if you drop Jones into the Chargers offense in place of Herbert, is he capable of putting up those numbers?
Also yesterday I mentioned I was told they would likely not announce until after the vikings game even if the deal was done... apparently that sentiment has changed and if they can finalize by friday they would likely announce prior, as his contract and the belief in DJ has nothing to do with the playoff game. In other words, if he has a bad game and then they announce they are concerned with optics and possible fan outrage vs. going into the game with the message "this is our guy" regardless of outcome.
the math can work a few different ways and there are pros and cons for both sides. the longer the deal the more upside for giants, the shorter the deal the more upside for jones. i dont expect the giants downside to change too much because there'd be a decent chunk of downside risk if they do 2x tags and QB prices continue to inflate.
here's the general math based on the length i think tracks with the kyler comp (and your info). the key questions are how many do extra years do the nyg want to buy now? how tough does jones rep get on 4th year guarantees?
start with the 2 years/78m tag amounts.
+1 year more year = +30-35m
+2 years = +75-85m
+3 years = +115-130m
i expect any deal gives jones around 100m guaranteed which is +22m over the tags while also locking those in and the only question is how many extra non-guaranteed years (at higher AAVs) is he willing to lock into?
I also hope and believe the Giants want him to prove more, before getting a seat at the top 10 table. Meaning, go do it again in 2024, and get more guaranteed.
The only other possible card Team Jones holds is Better sign me now, or I'll cost more later. But all parties know he's not signing a contract at a massive discount proportional to his future level of play.
I believe the basic structure will be built around the value of 2 franchise tags ~75M. Dressed up as a 5/200M deal.
- This gives Team Jones a big lump sum (my guess 40M) as a signing bonus in March, instead of getting paid 31.5M on a schedule in 2023
- He mitigates the risk of getting injured or regressing in 2023 by netting 43M additional dollars (above being franchised)
I also believe the contract will include a trigger that another ~25M in 2025 will become guaranteed, if he's simply on the 2024 roster (Mahomes has a bunch of these triggers for instance)
I believe the basic structure will be built around the value of 2 franchise tags ~75M. Dressed up as a 5/200M deal.
also known as the kyler murray deal (with a slight aav discount).
Herbert has had a tough year, mainly due to injuries to his OL, WRs, and himself. His head coach is a nutter, their whole offense is suffering from the lack of a running game and diversity of attack. He played with busted ribs for a month or more. Yet, he's still throws for 4700 yards and 25 TDs and he's got all the tools. Top 5 talent, been talking him up since Soph year at Oregon.
Jones is in the ~15 tier now. I expect upgrades at WR etc to help him, but the gaps I see in his game are more mental, instincts, vision. I'd expect Daboll to say there's always one man open in a passing concept, it's the QB's job to find him. Jones is still a work in progress in this aspect, as well as his decision making. As good as he was in MIN, there were a few hiccups that really cost them. Keep on growing.
Herbert's talent around him is vastly superior to Jones. Yet, aside from yards(1500 more) they are pretty close and Jones barely threw the 1st 6-8 games. I am certainly not saying Jones is as good or better than Herbert, but I am not so certain that the gap isn't closing.
Hey, 3 weeks ago I was all for letting Jones go and looking for another QB. I did not see the value in a 2nd contract and what that eats up in $$$. But since WFT 2nd game to me, he is a different player.
Yes Herbert was hurt, and so was Jones with the ankle - not the same degree but taking the wheels away from Jones is losing a lot of offense for the Giants.
I do think what we have seen recently is above mid level(15th) - 10-12 range.
He 100% wouldn't sit out the year. And he does not have any leverage nor are they trying to use "leverage". Its been very amicable, team Jones isn't even asking for more guaranteed, they just want the language to have something in it that makes it less easy for the giants to cut bait in year 4 which could be as simple as a bonus for 2026 triggering for being on the roster for the first day of 2025 or something similar
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I believe the basic structure will be built around the value of 2 franchise tags ~75M. Dressed up as a 5/200M deal.
also known as the kyler murray deal (with a slight aav discount).
Lower AAV and 30M less in full initial guarantees.
It is not that big a difference, now. I will grant you I want to see it continue because 3 games is a tease and could very well fall off the cliff. However, knowing what we know about Daboll and Schoen, if they see a viable QB then perhaps we should sit back and take notice.
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Team Jones is in a pretty low leverage situation. He's not the type of player who is seriously going to sit out a year if he's franchised.
He 100% wouldn't sit out the year. And he does not have any leverage nor are they trying to use "leverage". Its been very amicable, team Jones isn't even asking for more guaranteed, they just want the language to have something in it that makes it less easy for the giants to cut bait in year 4 which could be as simple as a bonus for 2026 triggering for being on the roster for the first day of 2025 or something similar
Gotcha. Makes sense Team Jones is being amicable (Schoen went of his way to say he liked both reps) and they sort of have to be.
Just my view/preference -- coming off only one good & healthy NFL year -- Schoen should apply that trigger logic to year 3 not 4.
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In comment 15987399 christian said:
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Team Jones is in a pretty low leverage situation. He's not the type of player who is seriously going to sit out a year if he's franchised.
He 100% wouldn't sit out the year. And he does not have any leverage nor are they trying to use "leverage". Its been very amicable, team Jones isn't even asking for more guaranteed, they just want the language to have something in it that makes it less easy for the giants to cut bait in year 4 which could be as simple as a bonus for 2026 triggering for being on the roster for the first day of 2025 or something similar
Gotcha. Makes sense Team Jones is being amicable (Schoen went of his way to say he liked both reps) and they sort of have to be.
Just my view/preference -- coming off only one good & healthy NFL year -- Schoen should apply that trigger logic to year 3 not 4.
Told schoen is a very easy going type of guy and does a good job making people feel like they are important while still being able to make tough decisions. If the giants are truly 100% in on jones im not so sure they dont cave, guess we'll see.
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In comment 15987399 christian said:
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I believe the basic structure will be built around the value of 2 franchise tags ~75M. Dressed up as a 5/200M deal.
also known as the kyler murray deal (with a slight aav discount).
Lower AAV and 30M less in full initial guarantees.
id take the under on 30m difference in guarantees.
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Herbert has had a tough year, mainly due to injuries to his OL, WRs, and himself. His head coach is a nutter, their whole offense is suffering from the lack of a running game and diversity of attack. He played with busted ribs for a month or more. Yet, he's still throws for 4700 yards and 25 TDs and he's got all the tools. Top 5 talent, been talking him up since Soph year at Oregon.
Jones is in the ~15 tier now. I expect upgrades at WR etc to help him, but the gaps I see in his game are more mental, instincts, vision. I'd expect Daboll to say there's always one man open in a passing concept, it's the QB's job to find him. Jones is still a work in progress in this aspect, as well as his decision making. As good as he was in MIN, there were a few hiccups that really cost them. Keep on growing.
Herbert's talent around him is vastly superior to Jones. Yet, aside from yards(1500 more) they are pretty close and Jones barely threw the 1st 6-8 games. I am certainly not saying Jones is as good or better than Herbert, but I am not so certain that the gap isn't closing.
Hey, 3 weeks ago I was all for letting Jones go and looking for another QB. I did not see the value in a 2nd contract and what that eats up in $$$. But since WFT 2nd game to me, he is a different player.
Yes Herbert was hurt, and so was Jones with the ankle - not the same degree but taking the wheels away from Jones is losing a lot of offense for the Giants.
I do think what we have seen recently is above mid level(15th) - 10-12 range.
The talent around him sat on the injured list a big chunk of the season. Allen missed 7 games, MW missed 4 and played injured, Ekeler basically had no properly utilized backup. If you watch the Chargers, it's like watching a mash unit coordinated by a nutter. Not to mention Slater was out. Give me JH 10 times out of 10 over Jones.
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In comment 15987376 JonC said:
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Herbert has had a tough year, mainly due to injuries to his OL, WRs, and himself. His head coach is a nutter, their whole offense is suffering from the lack of a running game and diversity of attack. He played with busted ribs for a month or more. Yet, he's still throws for 4700 yards and 25 TDs and he's got all the tools. Top 5 talent, been talking him up since Soph year at Oregon.
Jones is in the ~15 tier now. I expect upgrades at WR etc to help him, but the gaps I see in his game are more mental, instincts, vision. I'd expect Daboll to say there's always one man open in a passing concept, it's the QB's job to find him. Jones is still a work in progress in this aspect, as well as his decision making. As good as he was in MIN, there were a few hiccups that really cost them. Keep on growing.
Herbert's talent around him is vastly superior to Jones. Yet, aside from yards(1500 more) they are pretty close and Jones barely threw the 1st 6-8 games. I am certainly not saying Jones is as good or better than Herbert, but I am not so certain that the gap isn't closing.
Hey, 3 weeks ago I was all for letting Jones go and looking for another QB. I did not see the value in a 2nd contract and what that eats up in $$$. But since WFT 2nd game to me, he is a different player.
Yes Herbert was hurt, and so was Jones with the ankle - not the same degree but taking the wheels away from Jones is losing a lot of offense for the Giants.
I do think what we have seen recently is above mid level(15th) - 10-12 range.
The talent around him sat on the injured list a big chunk of the season. Allen missed 7 games, MW missed 4 and played injured, Ekeler basically had no properly utilized backup. If you watch the Chargers, it's like watching a mash unit coordinated by a nutter. Not to mention Slater was out. Give me JH 10 times out of 10 over Jones.
dont disagree but I think its safe to say that herbert will cost 15-20m more per year
Also yesterday I mentioned I was told they would likely not announce until after the vikings game even if the deal was done... apparently that sentiment has changed and if they can finalize by friday they would likely announce prior, as his contract and the belief in DJ has nothing to do with the playoff game. In other words, if he has a bad game and then they announce they are concerned with optics and possible fan outrage vs. going into the game with the message "this is our guy" regardless of outcome.
Good stuff. Thanks for sharing.
Based on your contact, which side is taking the harder line?
I know you are just the messenger, but it would seem more prudent to pause any talk until the the season is officially over. Let's see how Jones handles the biggest circumstances of his career. Playoffs are just such a different experience.
He can keep turnovers low but with limited passing production. That's a valuable skill - especially when combined with his legs. It's not as valuable as Burrow or Herbert's passing IMO.
But maybe it all changed the past few weeks. I really liked those Vikings and Colts game from him. That Colts game was an objectively spectacular effort.
I think your assessment of Jones is about right. I don't think anything has changed though on the last few weeks. Every QB goes through ups and downs. For Jones, Minny and Indy were an up, for sure. But don't let recency bias cloud your assessment of the player.
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I like Jones, but there's a lot of gaps in his game and I'd rather not lock in on him for multi-years. Despite the positive growth, he's still an average NFL passer and that's a big gap if you're talking about trying to build a perennial contender. Anyway, will stop there.
If they draft their own QB while Jones is under contract, the prospect will probably need time to develop anyway.
I have began to watch other QBs closely to how it appears Jones lines up. Aside from the obvious few (Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Rodgers) he is not that far from being in that 2nd tier and to me that includes Herbert. My only issue is basically it is the last three games in which he seems to have reached that level. Does it stick or was it an aberration?
The Vikings game will be important in my view, although I think the Giants are already sold.
Sorry, Jones will never be in Herbert's class.
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In comment 15987322 JonC said:
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In comment 15987288 BillT said:
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In comment 15987271 JonC said:
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it appears they're stuck between three and four years, so five wouldn't seem to be on the table atm.
That’s not what outeiroj said above . And he said both sides were in agreement on the basic structure which seemed to be a 5 year deal. Year 4 guarantees were the sticking point.
You can see the effects of lack of sleep over here. Well, that is not good news to my ears.
As someone who highly respects your opinion Jon you seem pretty dug in on this. It’s unlike your normal quite reasonable and informed takes.
I like Jones, but there's a lot of gaps in his game and I'd rather not lock in on him for multi-years. Despite the positive growth, he's still an average NFL passer and that's a big gap if you're talking about trying to build a perennial contender. Anyway, will stop there.
If they draft their own QB while Jones is under contract, the prospect will probably need time to develop anyway.
I have great respect for your insights but Jones is not a league average passer. He may be a league average QB, due to the running component of his game. But he is a below average passer. Below the likes of Cousins, JimmyG, even Carr.
We just need Jones to lead this team. With the parameters discussed contract wise they deal can invest heavily in the D. That has the quickest path to being elite.
Jones and the team advance a bit in the pass game and will keep a similar run/balance as this year. When they need to pass more the hope is you can play that way too. WR's added. Finish the IOL.
This wins SB's. Reevaluate a couple years into it. Keep a eye on the draft.
Thanks for all the updates Outeiroj.
Which is why, I believe, a 5/200 contract for Jones is a very good deal.
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In comment 15987351 JonC said:
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I like Jones, but there's a lot of gaps in his game and I'd rather not lock in on him for multi-years. Despite the positive growth, he's still an average NFL passer and that's a big gap if you're talking about trying to build a perennial contender. Anyway, will stop there.
If they draft their own QB while Jones is under contract, the prospect will probably need time to develop anyway.
I have began to watch other QBs closely to how it appears Jones lines up. Aside from the obvious few (Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Rodgers) he is not that far from being in that 2nd tier and to me that includes Herbert. My only issue is basically it is the last three games in which he seems to have reached that level. Does it stick or was it an aberration?
The Vikings game will be important in my view, although I think the Giants are already sold.
Herbert has had a tough year, mainly due to injuries to his OL, WRs, and himself. His head coach is a nutter, their whole offense is suffering from the lack of a running game and diversity of attack. He played with busted ribs for a month or more. Yet, he's still throws for 4700 yards and 25 TDs and he's got all the tools. Top 5 talent, been talking him up since Soph year at Oregon.
Jones is in the ~15 tier now. I expect upgrades at WR etc to help him, but the gaps I see in his game are more mental, instincts, vision. I'd expect Daboll to say there's always one man open in a passing concept, it's the QB's job to find him. Jones is still a work in progress in this aspect, as well as his decision making. As good as he was in MIN, there were a few hiccups that really cost them. Keep on growing.
I guess it doesn't matter that Daboll keeps saying he makes good decisions. Of course you know more than Daboll.
"Making good decisions under duress"
Seems satisfied for now to me.
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JH will be soon be a $50M AAV club member.
Which is why, I believe, a 5/200 contract for Jones is a very good deal.
I hope he proves me wrong, but I disagree.
No truth to contract talk right now - ( New Window )
Daboll can have his opinion, and so can I. Don't read if you doesn't suit your agenda.
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....while nothings changed in terms of DJ and the Giants wanting to be a part of each others future, there have been some discussions where if they can't agree on a longer deal, a shorter deal might be on the table (2-3 years) although its not what either team truly wants.
Also yesterday I mentioned I was told they would likely not announce until after the vikings game even if the deal was done... apparently that sentiment has changed and if they can finalize by friday they would likely announce prior, as his contract and the belief in DJ has nothing to do with the playoff game. In other words, if he has a bad game and then they announce they are concerned with optics and possible fan outrage vs. going into the game with the message "this is our guy" regardless of outcome.
Good stuff. Thanks for sharing.
Based on your contact, which side is taking the harder line?
I know you are just the messenger, but it would seem more prudent to pause any talk until the the season is officially over. Let's see how Jones handles the biggest circumstances of his career. Playoffs are just such a different experience.
neither. it seems its just 2 sides talking as if it were a casual conversation obviously there are some differences on the structure but no one is taking even a little bit of a hard line approach
Of course there isn't a 5 year deal out there. There aren't ANY deals out there. YET. He's not a FA until March. Until then, the only contract any team can offer is NYG.
First off - the 4/135 deal I put out there is 5/10 million AAV MORE than what you are putting out there. Not sure where you are getting your math from.
Second - for the 5 year deal, that was a typo on my part, should have been 5/170, not 5/160
Team Jones knows what deals are out there from other teams. Sure it violates the rules but everyone does it and it’s how you negotiate. The Giants have an idea of what his market value is too, so you can’t just walk in demanding $45 million for 6 years and then get your bluff called.
And if the new asshat info is correct, it’s going to end up a 2-3 year deal live I’ve been saying for weeks, because that’s what his value is currently to other teams.
Unbelievable.
"Making good decisions under duress"
Seems satisfied for now to me.
He cited that all season long every time he got a DJ question.
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In comment 15987460 JonC said:
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JH will be soon be a $50M AAV club member.
Which is why, I believe, a 5/200 contract for Jones is a very good deal.
I hope he proves me wrong, but I disagree.
Get that. And at least you’ve got something to back that up. But so, if true, may Shoen.
Well, someone has it wrong.
Unbelievable.
Guess i'll just keep info to myself, enjoy
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Amazing since that is the question BD was asked coming out of training camp regarding what he is looking for from Jones.
"Making good decisions under duress"
Seems satisfied for now to me.
He cited that all season long every time he got a DJ question.
The nuts and bolts of what the position comes down to. About a 1000 plays so I would say he has ample information to know where he potentially go. Certainly you have the execution side but that is easier to address and that is not only on Jones (OL/WR, etc.).
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....while nothings changed in terms of DJ and the Giants wanting to be a part of each others future, there have been some discussions where if they can't agree on a longer deal, a shorter deal might be on the table (2-3 years) although its not what either team truly wants.
Also yesterday I mentioned I was told they would likely not announce until after the vikings game even if the deal was done... apparently that sentiment has changed and if they can finalize by friday they would likely announce prior, as his contract and the belief in DJ has nothing to do with the playoff game. In other words, if he has a bad game and then they announce they are concerned with optics and possible fan outrage vs. going into the game with the message "this is our guy" regardless of outcome.
Good stuff. Thanks for sharing.
Based on your contact, which side is taking the harder line?
I know you are just the messenger, but it would seem more prudent to pause any talk until the the season is officially over. Let's see how Jones handles the biggest circumstances of his career. Playoffs are just such a different experience.
It's quite stupid to base the contract off of a playoff game.
Continuing to move the goalpost, eh?
First it was "Let's see how he does this year". Then when he does well, you try to quantify it by saying, "he did well vs the Colts, but they're a bad team."
Now, it's "lets see how he does in his first playoff game".
Why do I get the feeling that, if he does well, you'll say "OK, but let's see how he does in the NEXT game".
PS - ELi did HORRIBLE in his first playoff game. And that was at home as the favorite (Jones is on the road as an underdog).
PPS - he didn't much better in his 2nd one, either.
Thankfully, NYG mgmt won't be stupid enough to base a long term contract on one playoff game like you would, but will instead base it on what they've seen over the course of this season. Not to mention what they have seen in practice every day...
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insiders here on BBI who speak in such absolutes about the interworkings of NFL teams as they negotiate contracts with their players based on market value.
Unbelievable.
Guess i'll just keep info to myself, enjoy
Not you - you're cool :)
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insiders here on BBI who speak in such absolutes about the interworkings of NFL teams as they negotiate contracts with their players based on market value.
Unbelievable.
Guess i'll just keep info to myself, enjoy
I don't think that was for you but Dnew can comment if he likes.
Unbelievable.
If this is directed at me, I know plenty about how these negotiations work especially from the players side.
I consistently read around here, from many of your fellow members of the DJFC, that LJax isn't worth a big investment because of his playoff struggles. I think it's a reasonable point to a degree. But I would still weigh his regular season work more.
Hope that helps.
neither. it seems its just 2 sides talking as if it were a casual conversation obviously there are some differences on the structure but no one is taking even a little bit of a hard line approach
Thanks.
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Of course there isn't a 5 year deal out there. There aren't ANY deals out there. YET. He's not a FA until March. Until then, the only contract any team can offer is NYG.
First off - the 4/135 deal I put out there is 5/10 million AAV MORE than what you are putting out there. Not sure where you are getting your math from.
Second - for the 5 year deal, that was a typo on my part, should have been 5/170, not 5/160
Team Jones knows what deals are out there from other teams. Sure it violates the rules but everyone does it and it’s how you negotiate. The Giants have an idea of what his market value is too, so you can’t just walk in demanding $45 million for 6 years and then get your bluff called.
And if the new asshat info is correct, it’s going to end up a 2-3 year deal live I’ve been saying for weeks, because that’s what his value is currently to other teams.
Do you really need to speak in such hyperbole? No one thinks that he;s worth 6/260. No one - not even his agent(s). So just stop with the nonsense.
The deal could very well end up being 2-3 years (by the way, you're not the only one who has been saying that "for weeks", so try to not hurt your hand patting yourself on the back). But I can pretty much guarantee it won't be at the the low end you stated (25/per). There is zero chance of that happening. Is a 3/100-105 possible, which would be close to the top end you stated (30)? Sure. How much of your deal would be guaranteed. I'd be shocked that, if a 3/100-105 wasn't all guaranteed.
And for the last time - we have no idea what the market is for his value because HE'S NOT A FREE AGENT YET. IMO, I'd be willing to bet someone would offer him a 4 year deal. Maybe even a 5. But if the Giants FT him (which seems likely in the event they don't work out a deal by the time FA rolls around), then we'll never know what the market thinks of him/
Now someone that sets a trend in the playoffs over several times........
I consistently read around here, from many of your fellow members of the DJFC, that LJax isn't worth a big investment because of his playoff struggles. I think it's a reasonable point to a degree. But I would still weigh his regular season work more.
Hope that helps.
I've already explained several times that I'm not a member of the FC, but I guess you'll continue to ignore all those posts.
I think that DJAX isn't worth the contract he's supposedly asking for for two reasons 1) he's had very little playoff success over SEVERAL seasons), and 2) he's shown himself to be injury prone over several seasons.
The issue with Jones, of course, is they need to make a decision this year, since his contract is up. They could FT him and buy another year of performance, but a FT tag hamstrings what they can do resource wise in 2023. Which, given the limited resources they were able to surround him with this year, wouldn't really allow a full picture of what the guy can do next year, either. A catch-22 of sorts
Time will tell what they think of Jones. Heck, if you believe the inside info we've gotten on this thread, we could know as early as Friday.
Team Jones knows what deals are out there from other teams. Sure it violates the rules but everyone does it and it’s how you negotiate. The Giants have an idea of what his market value is too, so you can’t just walk in demanding $45 million for 6 years and then get your bluff called.
And if the new asshat info is correct, it’s going to end up a 2-3 year deal live I’ve been saying for weeks, because that’s what his value is currently to other teams.
I actually think Team Jones would have an interesting market if they were allowed to test it. And that's because there are so many possibilities:
+ Does Miami keep Tua?
+ What if Brady leaves Tampa?
+ What are the Raiders going to do at QB?
+ What does Carolina do to solve their QB and HC problems?
+ What are Washington's plans for QB?
+ What will the Jets do with Wilson?
+ What do they Saints do about their QB carousel?
+ What do the Colts do with their QB and HC needs?
IMV, with so much potential demand, I could see Team Jones thinking - and I will defer to your insights because you are close to more insider info - they could probably get at least the FT AAV in the market...
Do you really need to speak in such hyperbole? No one thinks that he;s worth 6/260. No one - not even his agent(s). So just stop with the nonsense.
Read what I wrote again. I wasn’t saying anyone thinks he’s worth that, it’s an example of Team Jones coming into the negotiations with an insanely high ask. I’m not even saying they would ask for that it’s just a random number as an example. Reading comprehension and critical thinking before calling things nonsense.
And for the last time - we have no idea what the market is for his value because HE'S NOT A FREE AGENT YET. IMO, I'd be willing to bet someone would offer him a 4 year deal. Maybe even a 5. But if the Giants FT him (which seems likely in the event they don't work out a deal by the time FA rolls around), then we'll never know what the market thinks of him/
Did I ever say I was the only one saying it would be 2-3 years? No, I did not. Again reading comprehension and critical thinking. I said it would be 2-3 year deal because that’s what Team Jones knows is the highest offers in terms of years out on the market, which is what I said last week in a thread. That that’s the current market value to other teams when it comes to years. Team Jones has had conversations through back channels and they know what’s out there. If you don’t think that’s happened, you probably still believe in the Easter Bunny. Obviously that can chance if someone really wants Jones, but that’s what is currently out there. And it lines up with the asshat info.
Young Zscending QBs don’t get 2 or 3 year deals, imo..
IMV, with so much potential demand, I could see Team Jones thinking - and I will defer to your insights because you are close to more insider info - they could probably get at least the FT AAV in the market...
As things stand now any offer on the market that’s over two years is probably slightly below or at the FT value AAV, with the two year tag value as the guarantees.
All subject to change if and when he actually hits the open market.
It's an interesting typo, considering this description could theoretically apply to both DJ and LJax without technically being false.
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Herbert has had a tough year, mainly due to injuries to his OL, WRs, and himself. His head coach is a nutter, their whole offense is suffering from the lack of a running game and diversity of attack. He played with busted ribs for a month or more. Yet, he's still throws for 4700 yards and 25 TDs and he's got all the tools. Top 5 talent, been talking him up since Soph year at Oregon.
Jones is in the ~15 tier now. I expect upgrades at WR etc to help him, but the gaps I see in his game are more mental, instincts, vision. I'd expect Daboll to say there's always one man open in a passing concept, it's the QB's job to find him. Jones is still a work in progress in this aspect, as well as his decision making. As good as he was in MIN, there were a few hiccups that really cost them. Keep on growing.
Herbert's talent around him is vastly superior to Jones. Yet, aside from yards(1500 more) they are pretty close and Jones barely threw the 1st 6-8 games. I am certainly not saying Jones is as good or better than Herbert, but I am not so certain that the gap isn't closing.
Hey, 3 weeks ago I was all for letting Jones go and looking for another QB. I did not see the value in a 2nd contract and what that eats up in $$$. But since WFT 2nd game to me, he is a different player.
Yes Herbert was hurt, and so was Jones with the ankle - not the same degree but taking the wheels away from Jones is losing a lot of offense for the Giants.
I do think what we have seen recently is above mid level(15th) - 10-12 range.
Holy shit. Can we please stop with the Herbert comparisons? You are comparing a down year for Herbert with fractured rib cartilage against a career year for Jones.
Last year Herbert had 5,000 yards passing, 300 yards rushing, and 41 total TDs (38 passing).
Be honest, if you drop Jones into the Chargers offense in place of Herbert, is he capable of putting up those numbers?
I say no fucking way.