I think that DJAX isn't worth the contract he's supposedly asking for for two reasons 1) he's had very little playoff success over SEVERAL seasons), and 2) he's shown himself to be injury prone over several seasons.
The issue with Jones, of course, is they need to make a decision this year, since his contract is up. They could FT him and buy another year of performance, but a FT tag hamstrings what they can do resource wise in 2023. Which, given the limited resources they were able to surround him with this year, wouldn't really allow a full picture of what the guy can do next year, either. A catch-22 of sorts
I think the Ravens should FT LJax - for the reasons you cited and others.
I get your point about giving Jones the FT and the punitive cap impact. But it's not a bumper crop for free agent weapons this off-season, so we may have to run it back with the same pieces and whomever we draft.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: fwiw, if the info is solid
Holy shit. Can we please stop with the Herbert comparisons? You are comparing a down year for Herbert with fractured rib cartilage against a career year for Jones.
Last year Herbert had 5,000 yards passing, 300 yards rushing, and 41 total TDs (38 passing).
Be honest, if you drop Jones into the Chargers offense in place of Herbert, is he capable of putting up those numbers?
I say no fucking way.
Last year, no, Jones would have not done that. Maybe not even this year. To be honest, watching Herbert I see a VG QB surrounded with talent(OLine questionable), but he isn't Joe Burrow, either.
Take a deep breath. It is a football discussion. Nobody is going to take your Cocoa Puffs. All I am saying is Jones appears not to be the chopped liver he was made out to be and he is likely going to get paid. Cart may be in front of the horse right now, yes. And given the same circumstances the numbers seem to indicate that their stats would be close.
FWIW, Herbert has thrown 1.5 times as many passes as Jones and has the exact same y/a(6.8). So with 50% more pass attempts he is obviously going to throw for more yards and TDs. Yet their Rating and QBR are nearly the same.
Young Zscending QBs don’t get 2 or 3 year deals, imo..
Young ascending QB's dont get there 5th year options declined. Before this year, he was stagnant. One could argue that he really didn't show improvement until late in the season, but we don't really know whats been going on behind closed doors.
there won't be much difference between the y1 cap hit on a 2-3 heavily guaranteed (possibly entirely guaranteed) deal and the non-exclusive FT. If a 3yr deal for a $35M AAV were to come together, and if that deal is mostly or entirely guaranteed, the y1 cap hit probably ends up in the $30M range anyway (so that the y3 cap hit isn't both overly expensive AND guaranteed).
It would take a 4 or 5yr deal (or void years attached to a 2-3yr deal to provide the same effect) to really see much y1 cap relief, IMO. The only other way around it would be if the the short-term option isn't heavily guaranteed, but that scenario seems wildly unlikely to me.
RE: If the rumored short-term option comes to fruition
there won't be much difference between the y1 cap hit on a 2-3 heavily guaranteed (possibly entirely guaranteed) deal and the non-exclusive FT. If a 3yr deal for a $35M AAV were to come together, and if that deal is mostly or entirely guaranteed, the y1 cap hit probably ends up in the $30M range anyway (so that the y3 cap hit isn't both overly expensive AND guaranteed).
It would take a 4 or 5yr deal (or void years attached to a 2-3yr deal to provide the same effect) to really see much y1 cap relief, IMO. The only other way around it would be if the the short-term option isn't heavily guaranteed, but that scenario seems wildly unlikely to me.
A good explanation of why the 5/200 deal is better. And for both parties.
Young Zscending QBs don’t get 2 or 3 year deals, imo..
Young ascending QB's dont get there 5th year options declined. Before this year, he was stagnant. One could argue that he really didn't show improvement until late in the season, but we don't really know whats been going on behind closed doors.
Except Daboll and Schoen had no real feel for DJ when they were hired. Sure they had film, but they didn’t know the man, how hard he works, how smart he is, how easily he adapts to solid teaching and so on. They were right to decline the 5th year without knowing DJ upclose and personal. I would have as well and I’m among the biggest DJ supporters on the site.
They knew they had options if he proved to be what a bunch of us believed him to be and right now, they’re in the driver’s seat..
Too, the money they saved in not picking up the 5th year can arguably be attributed to where we are today with the lesser tier signings we were able to make, so tightly up against the cap..
They played it perfectly, imho
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: fwiw, if the info is solid
FWIW, Herbert has thrown 1.5 times as many passes as Jones and has the exact same y/a(6.8). So with 50% more pass attempts he is obviously going to throw for more yards and TDs. Yet their Rating and QBR are nearly the same.
NFL Passing stats ESPN - ( New Window )
This keeps getting raised around here. The Chargers haven't been able to run the ball this year, and largely because the OL has been hit by key injuries (Slater, Linsley) and Allen and Williams have missed games at WR.
They are 30th in the league in rushing yards per game at 89+. They were 20th in 2021 at 108YPG. So, a shorter passing attack became their de facto running game. Which helps explain why Herbert's completion% increased from 66% to 68%.
In other words, Staley put more of the responsibility on Herbert to run and manage the offense.
They are 30th in the league in rushing yards per game at 89+. They were 20th in 2021 at 108YPG. So, a shorter passing attack became their de facto running game. Which helps explain why Herbert's completion% increased from 66% to 68%.
In other words, Staley put more of the responsibility on Herbert to run and manage the offense.
Staley did not have any other choice. Daboll did and chose to run the ball. Probably a combo of Jones is a work in progress, his WRs sucked and did not know the play book or how to make the reads(not on page with OC, QB).
Herbert is a better polished product and came out of college that way. After the past two years of zero help/coaching, you could argue Jones is in his 2nd year of development.
How does it end up? I have no clue. I can only speculate the Daboll and Schoen think he is worth a solid contract and would not do so if they have doubts - although quibbling over the length of the contract means there are some doubts. And there should be. He is not Patrick Mahomes or Josh Allen.
coming out of college, or that Herbert came out more polished to begin with, is laughable. One of DJ's most appealing qualities coming out of college was his NFL readiness after having spent years under Cutcliffe's tutelage.
I'm not denying the poor coaching that DJ dealt with, particularly in his 2nd and 3rd NFL seasons, but let's not create some alternate reality where DJ was a raw QB prospect entering the NFL.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: fwiw, if the info is solid
I like Jones, but there's a lot of gaps in his game and I'd rather not lock in on him for multi-years. Despite the positive growth, he's still an average NFL passer and that's a big gap if you're talking about trying to build a perennial contender. Anyway, will stop there.
If they draft their own QB while Jones is under contract, the prospect will probably need time to develop anyway.
I have began to watch other QBs closely to how it appears Jones lines up. Aside from the obvious few (Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Rodgers) he is not that far from being in that 2nd tier and to me that includes Herbert. My only issue is basically it is the last three games in which he seems to have reached that level. Does it stick or was it an aberration?
The Vikings game will be important in my view, although I think the Giants are already sold.
Sorry, Jones will never be in Herbert's class.
He was this year! Had a higher QBR and did it with less. Does he throw as pretty a ball? No but makes up for it with his mobility.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: fwiw, if the info is solid
Holy shit. Can we please stop with the Herbert comparisons? You are comparing a down year for Herbert with fractured rib cartilage against a career year for Jones.
Last year Herbert had 5,000 yards passing, 300 yards rushing, and 41 total TDs (38 passing).
Be honest, if you drop Jones into the Chargers offense in place of Herbert, is he capable of putting up those numbers?
I say no fucking way.
Last year, no, Jones would have not done that. Maybe not even this year. To be honest, watching Herbert I see a VG QB surrounded with talent(OLine questionable), but he isn't Joe Burrow, either.
Take a deep breath. It is a football discussion. Nobody is going to take your Cocoa Puffs. All I am saying is Jones appears not to be the chopped liver he was made out to be and he is likely going to get paid. Cart may be in front of the horse right now, yes. And given the same circumstances the numbers seem to indicate that their stats would be close.
FWIW, Herbert has thrown 1.5 times as many passes as Jones and has the exact same y/a(6.8). So with 50% more pass attempts he is obviously going to throw for more yards and TDs. Yet their Rating and QBR are nearly the same.
NFL Passing stats ESPN - ( New Window )
If you can't be objective about this then there is no point discussing it with you. There is zero chance DJ ever throws for 5,000 yards or 38 touchdowns in a season. Even Eli Manning never accomplished either of those.
Herbert is two tiers above Jones.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: fwiw, if the info is solid
I can’t take the hot takes here by so many who were so wrong but now seem to be pivoting faster and more efficiently than an excel table.
You don’t NOT pay a quality player and person at QB because of some made up narratives being thrown around here. “Two tiers below Herbert or not the passer Jimmy G or cousins”. — yea, no.
Who cares? Was Eli the passer or athlete Mike Vick was? Was he the athlete that mcnabb was ? Was simms “better” than Randall Cunningham? Who cares?
Its all about jones and what he means to Daboll and this team.
And lastly, god help the Herbert fan boys here if this guy doesn’t win anything of note over his career. Can’t go one thread without the usual ball washing. And it’s not even relevant. Yea he can spin it. He’s big he’s strong. Great. Who cares.
I think that DJAX isn't worth the contract he's supposedly asking for for two reasons 1) he's had very little playoff success over SEVERAL seasons), and 2) he's shown himself to be injury prone over several seasons.
The issue with Jones, of course, is they need to make a decision this year, since his contract is up. They could FT him and buy another year of performance, but a FT tag hamstrings what they can do resource wise in 2023. Which, given the limited resources they were able to surround him with this year, wouldn't really allow a full picture of what the guy can do next year, either. A catch-22 of sorts
I think the Ravens should FT LJax - for the reasons you cited and others.
I get your point about giving Jones the FT and the punitive cap impact. But it's not a bumper crop for free agent weapons this off-season, so we may have to run it back with the same pieces and whomever we draft.
Agree there not a lot of WR options in the FA market. But there is a trade as an option (I'm not advocating a trade, but in theory that is a way to improve the WR talent absent any decent FA's).
There are no "Herbert fanboys" here. We are just objectively stating that he is a far superior passer than Jones.
I love how you talk about how Herbert might never win anything of note as if Jones has ever won anything of note.
I will be rooting just as hard as all of you for Jones and for the Giants to win on Sunday. That does not mean that Herbert is not objectively a better QB than Jones.
And lastly, god help the Herbert fan boys here if this guy doesn’t win anything of note over his career. Can’t go one thread without the usual ball washing. And it’s not even relevant. Yea he can spin it. He’s big he’s strong. Great. Who cares.
And lastly, god help the Herbert fan boys here if this guy doesn’t win anything of note over his career. Can’t go one thread without the usual ball washing. And it’s not even relevant. Yea he can spin it. He’s big he’s strong. Great. Who cares.
That was actually very funny.
Love Herbert. He’s a terrific young qb. I’ll leave it at that.
Unless you have a viable replacement coming down the pike. And you’re underrating jones if you think anyone can come in and do what he did this year and what he can do going forward. Conjuring up passing stats to make a point about not overpaying seems way too easy and simplistic in my view.
Jones finally had a team around him this season. A far from perfect team but a functional team. He delivered. I think he can deliver even more, if and when needed.
If the giants think Jones can’t lead an above average passing game they won’t sign him to a long term deal.
Also to expand on my last point about the functional team
I have no problem with the belief that jones did in fact need to improve, as an individual. The team needed to be better and jones needed to be better.
I really couldn’t care less about 19-21 anymore. It’s just the backstory with jones now. You want to tell me he sucked those years, fine, don’t care. We can argue the chicken and the egg thing, it’s pointless. I know he’s viable now and that’s all I care about going forward.
I am totally good with a 2-3 year deal. Either he proves he is the guy or it buys them time to find someone else with at the very least competence at the position.
If he won't sign a 2-3 year deal for less than the FT AAV then just tag him and make him prove more.
Any idea of giving him a 5 year, 200M contract right now is ludicrous.
I'm pretty much sick of this BS narrative.. there are what 5-6 top tier QBs in the league right now.. and thats usually all there ever in any era.. ever.. maybe.. what the hell are the other 25-27 other teams supposed to do? You find a guy you can WIN with..
Eli.. played in an era with a prime Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Romo, Big Ben.. most people would put Eli behind almost all of them.. but he beat a Romo, Favre, Rodgers and Brady TWICE when it counted...
Simms played in an era with Marino, Montana, Kelly, Elway, and you put Simms behind them.. but he BEAT Elway and Montana when it counted ( he gets no credit for Kelly cause Hoss was the QB for that SB)
What is my point... You dont have to have the greatest QB on the planet to win.. you need to find a guy you can win WITH.. Hopefully Jones is that guy.
RE: I said this somewhere else and it bears repeating
I'm pretty much sick of this BS narrative.. there are what 5-6 top tier QBs in the league right now.. and thats usually all there ever in any era.. ever.. maybe.. what the hell are the other 25-27 other teams supposed to do? You find a guy you can WIN with..
Eli.. played in an era with a prime Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Romo, Big Ben.. most people would put Eli behind almost all of them.. but he beat a Romo, Favre, Rodgers and Brady TWICE when it counted...
Simms played in an era with Marino, Montana, Kelly, Elway, and you put Simms behind them.. but he BEAT Elway and Montana when it counted ( he gets no credit for Kelly cause Hoss was the QB for that SB)
What is my point... You dont have to have the greatest QB on the planet to win.. you need to find a guy you can win WITH.. Hopefully Jones is that guy.
It is easier to try to find a top8 qb than it is to win with the 15th best qb. It is easier to land a HOF QB than it is to build the 2000 Ravens. That's why you hear it. It's not a narrative. It's an opinion backed up by analysis.
RE: I said this somewhere else and it bears repeating
I'm pretty much sick of this BS narrative.. there are what 5-6 top tier QBs in the league right now.. and thats usually all there ever in any era.. ever.. maybe.. what the hell are the other 25-27 other teams supposed to do? You find a guy you can WIN with..
Eli.. played in an era with a prime Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Romo, Big Ben.. most people would put Eli behind almost all of them.. but he beat a Romo, Favre, Rodgers and Brady TWICE when it counted...
Simms played in an era with Marino, Montana, Kelly, Elway, and you put Simms behind them.. but he BEAT Elway and Montana when it counted ( he gets no credit for Kelly cause Hoss was the QB for that SB)
What is my point... You dont have to have the greatest QB on the planet to win.. you need to find a guy you can win WITH.. Hopefully Jones is that guy.
First off, nothing pre salary cap is comparable. Simms has no bearing in this conversation.
Secondly, it is not as simple as finding a QB you can win with. It is either you can win the championship with him on a rookie contract, or you find a QB that can win a championship while taking up a fifth of the cap.
Eli was clearly a top 10 qb. In his prime, he was in the second tier with Big Ben, Rivers, and Romo. Eli was obviously able to raise his game to a great level in the biggest games.
Again, it is not as simple as, we can win with Jones, give him $40m a year. I would put DJ in the same tier with above average/good but not good enough with guys like Cousins, Tannehill, Carr and Goff. I guess you could throw Geno in there as well. The Raiders already have buyers remorse and are dumping Carr because he is not worth $40M.
It is going to be difficult to put great talent around him, both oline and weapons with him eating a huge chunk of cap. Not to mention that based on the evidence we have, he also needs a good defense to win in the NFL.
So if he is not good enough to win it all with a huge contract then he is not worth backing up the brinks truck for.
We will see how he does in the playoffs. Hopefully he proves me wrong.
should be in both the regular season and the playoffs.
You need a good enough one in the regular season and then a elite one in the playoffs. They don't have to be elite in the playoffs throughout. Just at the right times and in the biggest moments.
Jones gets his first chance. Looking forward to it.
Maybe we should just tag Jones and then get a rookie QB in place in the next draft or subsequent one.
1. The idea that you need a QB on his rookie contract to win the SB isn't based on reality. Only 1 (Mahomes) of the last 8 or so SB winning QBs was on his rookie contract.
2. The idea that it's easy to find a franchise QB in the draft is WAY not based on reality. The draft is a total crapshoot, especially for QBs. Based on historical stats, even a QB drafted in the first round, is about TEN times more likely to fail than to become even a decent franchise QB.
3. The idea that $35M AAV for Jones is going to hamstring the Giants isn't based on reality. That's barely top ten money for an ascending QB who's already performing in the top ten, with room to improve (especially with better receivers). The rumored contract could look like a bargain in a year or two.
4. Let the professionals worry about the cap.
So let me summarize your position...
*QBs on rookie deals aren't really all that helpful to a super bowl cause.
*Finding Franchise QBs in the draft including Rd1 are really pipe-dreams, except of course our current starter even though he was the #6 overall pick
*Giving Daniel Jones a raise from his current $6.5M AAV to $35M+ AAV doesn't make a bit of difference to roster building
*Giant fans on BBI shouldn't ever engage in cap discussions on this thread or any other because the Giants have proven themselves to be very adept at managing that process.
Will let that sink in a bit.
RE: RE: RE: It’s not about Justin fucking Herbert!
Dan Marino is a Hall of Fame QB, MULTIPLE record setting QB. Coached by Hall of Famer, Don Shula.
He had ONE Superbowl game appearance, taking the 14-2 Dolphins to Super Bowl XIX against the 49'er team lead by Joe Montana...and lost. Never got back to the Super Bowl.
Yes, you need a good QB. Preferably an elite one. But being one of the best QB's in your generation isn't the key to winning the big one. You need to build the ENTIRE team to do that.
Herbert WILL be a great QB. But I can give you THREE good reasons why Daniel Jones is more likely to make the Super Bowl before him.
Burrow, Allen and Mahomes!
RE: RE: I said this somewhere else and it bears repeating
I'm pretty much sick of this BS narrative.. there are what 5-6 top tier QBs in the league right now.. and thats usually all there ever in any era.. ever.. maybe.. what the hell are the other 25-27 other teams supposed to do? You find a guy you can WIN with..
Eli.. played in an era with a prime Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Romo, Big Ben.. most people would put Eli behind almost all of them.. but he beat a Romo, Favre, Rodgers and Brady TWICE when it counted...
Simms played in an era with Marino, Montana, Kelly, Elway, and you put Simms behind them.. but he BEAT Elway and Montana when it counted ( he gets no credit for Kelly cause Hoss was the QB for that SB)
What is my point... You dont have to have the greatest QB on the planet to win.. you need to find a guy you can win WITH.. Hopefully Jones is that guy.
First off, nothing pre salary cap is comparable. Simms has no bearing in this conversation.
Secondly, it is not as simple as finding a QB you can win with. It is either you can win the championship with him on a rookie contract, or you find a QB that can win a championship while taking up a fifth of the cap.
Eli was clearly a top 10 qb. In his prime, he was in the second tier with Big Ben, Rivers, and Romo. Eli was obviously able to raise his game to a great level in the biggest games.
Again, it is not as simple as, we can win with Jones, give him $40m a year. I would put DJ in the same tier with above average/good but not good enough with guys like Cousins, Tannehill, Carr and Goff. I guess you could throw Geno in there as well. The Raiders already have buyers remorse and are dumping Carr because he is not worth $40M.
It is going to be difficult to put great talent around him, both oline and weapons with him eating a huge chunk of cap. Not to mention that based on the evidence we have, he also needs a good defense to win in the NFL.
So if he is not good enough to win it all with a huge contract then he is not worth backing up the brinks truck for.
We will see how he does in the playoffs. Hopefully he proves me wrong.
He needs a good defense like all QBs. It is the job of GM to build the team and coach to make the scheme. That is why they get paid the big bucks. Wait until you see the contract before you panic. Life is never perfect.
RE: RE: RE: Just don’t know how we are going to afford all this talent over
Maybe we should just tag Jones and then get a rookie QB in place in the next draft or subsequent one.
1. The idea that you need a QB on his rookie contract to win the SB isn't based on reality. Only 1 (Mahomes) of the last 8 or so SB winning QBs was on his rookie contract.
2. The idea that it's easy to find a franchise QB in the draft is WAY not based on reality. The draft is a total crapshoot, especially for QBs. Based on historical stats, even a QB drafted in the first round, is about TEN times more likely to fail than to become even a decent franchise QB.
3. The idea that $35M AAV for Jones is going to hamstring the Giants isn't based on reality. That's barely top ten money for an ascending QB who's already performing in the top ten, with room to improve (especially with better receivers). The rumored contract could look like a bargain in a year or two.
4. Let the professionals worry about the cap.
So let me summarize your position...
*QBs on rookie deals aren't really all that helpful to a super bowl cause.
*Finding Franchise QBs in the draft including Rd1 are really pipe-dreams, except of course our current starter even though he was the #6 overall pick
*Giving Daniel Jones a raise from his current $6.5M AAV to $35M+ AAV doesn't make a bit of difference to roster building
*Giant fans on BBI shouldn't ever engage in cap discussions on this thread or any other because the Giants have proven themselves to be very adept at managing that process.
I think that DJAX isn't worth the contract he's supposedly asking for for two reasons 1) he's had very little playoff success over SEVERAL seasons), and 2) he's shown himself to be injury prone over several seasons.
The issue with Jones, of course, is they need to make a decision this year, since his contract is up. They could FT him and buy another year of performance, but a FT tag hamstrings what they can do resource wise in 2023. Which, given the limited resources they were able to surround him with this year, wouldn't really allow a full picture of what the guy can do next year, either. A catch-22 of sorts
I think the Ravens should FT LJax - for the reasons you cited and others.
I get your point about giving Jones the FT and the punitive cap impact. But it's not a bumper crop for free agent weapons this off-season, so we may have to run it back with the same pieces and whomever we draft.
Holy shit. Can we please stop with the Herbert comparisons? You are comparing a down year for Herbert with fractured rib cartilage against a career year for Jones.
Last year Herbert had 5,000 yards passing, 300 yards rushing, and 41 total TDs (38 passing).
Be honest, if you drop Jones into the Chargers offense in place of Herbert, is he capable of putting up those numbers?
I say no fucking way.
Last year, no, Jones would have not done that. Maybe not even this year. To be honest, watching Herbert I see a VG QB surrounded with talent(OLine questionable), but he isn't Joe Burrow, either.
Take a deep breath. It is a football discussion. Nobody is going to take your Cocoa Puffs. All I am saying is Jones appears not to be the chopped liver he was made out to be and he is likely going to get paid. Cart may be in front of the horse right now, yes. And given the same circumstances the numbers seem to indicate that their stats would be close.
FWIW, Herbert has thrown 1.5 times as many passes as Jones and has the exact same y/a(6.8). So with 50% more pass attempts he is obviously going to throw for more yards and TDs. Yet their Rating and QBR are nearly the same.
NFL Passing stats ESPN - ( New Window )
Young Zscending QBs don’t get 2 or 3 year deals, imo..
Young ascending QB's dont get there 5th year options declined. Before this year, he was stagnant. One could argue that he really didn't show improvement until late in the season, but we don't really know whats been going on behind closed doors.
too bad I thought you were being funny..and i laughed
i now officially take back the chortle
I think Herbert can be a top 5 guy in the near future
It would take a 4 or 5yr deal (or void years attached to a 2-3yr deal to provide the same effect) to really see much y1 cap relief, IMO. The only other way around it would be if the the short-term option isn't heavily guaranteed, but that scenario seems wildly unlikely to me.
It would take a 4 or 5yr deal (or void years attached to a 2-3yr deal to provide the same effect) to really see much y1 cap relief, IMO. The only other way around it would be if the the short-term option isn't heavily guaranteed, but that scenario seems wildly unlikely to me.
A good explanation of why the 5/200 deal is better. And for both parties.
Quote:
How they structure should be THE BIG QUESTION.
Young Zscending QBs don’t get 2 or 3 year deals, imo..
Young ascending QB's dont get there 5th year options declined. Before this year, he was stagnant. One could argue that he really didn't show improvement until late in the season, but we don't really know whats been going on behind closed doors.
Except Daboll and Schoen had no real feel for DJ when they were hired. Sure they had film, but they didn’t know the man, how hard he works, how smart he is, how easily he adapts to solid teaching and so on. They were right to decline the 5th year without knowing DJ upclose and personal. I would have as well and I’m among the biggest DJ supporters on the site.
They knew they had options if he proved to be what a bunch of us believed him to be and right now, they’re in the driver’s seat..
Too, the money they saved in not picking up the 5th year can arguably be attributed to where we are today with the lesser tier signings we were able to make, so tightly up against the cap..
They played it perfectly, imho
FWIW, Herbert has thrown 1.5 times as many passes as Jones and has the exact same y/a(6.8). So with 50% more pass attempts he is obviously going to throw for more yards and TDs. Yet their Rating and QBR are nearly the same.
NFL Passing stats ESPN - ( New Window )
This keeps getting raised around here. The Chargers haven't been able to run the ball this year, and largely because the OL has been hit by key injuries (Slater, Linsley) and Allen and Williams have missed games at WR.
They are 30th in the league in rushing yards per game at 89+. They were 20th in 2021 at 108YPG. So, a shorter passing attack became their de facto running game. Which helps explain why Herbert's completion% increased from 66% to 68%.
In other words, Staley put more of the responsibility on Herbert to run and manage the offense.
They are 30th in the league in rushing yards per game at 89+. They were 20th in 2021 at 108YPG. So, a shorter passing attack became their de facto running game. Which helps explain why Herbert's completion% increased from 66% to 68%.
In other words, Staley put more of the responsibility on Herbert to run and manage the offense.
Staley did not have any other choice. Daboll did and chose to run the ball. Probably a combo of Jones is a work in progress, his WRs sucked and did not know the play book or how to make the reads(not on page with OC, QB).
Herbert is a better polished product and came out of college that way. After the past two years of zero help/coaching, you could argue Jones is in his 2nd year of development.
How does it end up? I have no clue. I can only speculate the Daboll and Schoen think he is worth a solid contract and would not do so if they have doubts - although quibbling over the length of the contract means there are some doubts. And there should be. He is not Patrick Mahomes or Josh Allen.
I'm not denying the poor coaching that DJ dealt with, particularly in his 2nd and 3rd NFL seasons, but let's not create some alternate reality where DJ was a raw QB prospect entering the NFL.
Quote:
In comment 15987351 JonC said:
Quote:
I like Jones, but there's a lot of gaps in his game and I'd rather not lock in on him for multi-years. Despite the positive growth, he's still an average NFL passer and that's a big gap if you're talking about trying to build a perennial contender. Anyway, will stop there.
If they draft their own QB while Jones is under contract, the prospect will probably need time to develop anyway.
I have began to watch other QBs closely to how it appears Jones lines up. Aside from the obvious few (Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Rodgers) he is not that far from being in that 2nd tier and to me that includes Herbert. My only issue is basically it is the last three games in which he seems to have reached that level. Does it stick or was it an aberration?
The Vikings game will be important in my view, although I think the Giants are already sold.
Sorry, Jones will never be in Herbert's class.
He was this year! Had a higher QBR and did it with less. Does he throw as pretty a ball? No but makes up for it with his mobility.
Quote:
Holy shit. Can we please stop with the Herbert comparisons? You are comparing a down year for Herbert with fractured rib cartilage against a career year for Jones.
Last year Herbert had 5,000 yards passing, 300 yards rushing, and 41 total TDs (38 passing).
Be honest, if you drop Jones into the Chargers offense in place of Herbert, is he capable of putting up those numbers?
I say no fucking way.
Last year, no, Jones would have not done that. Maybe not even this year. To be honest, watching Herbert I see a VG QB surrounded with talent(OLine questionable), but he isn't Joe Burrow, either.
Take a deep breath. It is a football discussion. Nobody is going to take your Cocoa Puffs. All I am saying is Jones appears not to be the chopped liver he was made out to be and he is likely going to get paid. Cart may be in front of the horse right now, yes. And given the same circumstances the numbers seem to indicate that their stats would be close.
FWIW, Herbert has thrown 1.5 times as many passes as Jones and has the exact same y/a(6.8). So with 50% more pass attempts he is obviously going to throw for more yards and TDs. Yet their Rating and QBR are nearly the same.
NFL Passing stats ESPN - ( New Window )
If you can't be objective about this then there is no point discussing it with you. There is zero chance DJ ever throws for 5,000 yards or 38 touchdowns in a season. Even Eli Manning never accomplished either of those.
Herbert is two tiers above Jones.
He was this year! Had a higher QBR and did it with less. Does he throw as pretty a ball? No but makes up for it with his mobility.
And there you have why Jones had a higher QBR than Herbert. He ran more. And he ran terrifically. So, he deserves praise. It's his best quality.
But do you seriously want to compare them as passers? Herbert's three years are historical for a QB who has started since his rookie year.
You don’t NOT pay a quality player and person at QB because of some made up narratives being thrown around here. “Two tiers below Herbert or not the passer Jimmy G or cousins”. — yea, no.
Keep at it. Just ridiculous.
Its all about jones and what he means to Daboll and this team.
And lastly, god help the Herbert fan boys here if this guy doesn’t win anything of note over his career. Can’t go one thread without the usual ball washing. And it’s not even relevant. Yea he can spin it. He’s big he’s strong. Great. Who cares.
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I think that DJAX isn't worth the contract he's supposedly asking for for two reasons 1) he's had very little playoff success over SEVERAL seasons), and 2) he's shown himself to be injury prone over several seasons.
The issue with Jones, of course, is they need to make a decision this year, since his contract is up. They could FT him and buy another year of performance, but a FT tag hamstrings what they can do resource wise in 2023. Which, given the limited resources they were able to surround him with this year, wouldn't really allow a full picture of what the guy can do next year, either. A catch-22 of sorts
I think the Ravens should FT LJax - for the reasons you cited and others.
I get your point about giving Jones the FT and the punitive cap impact. But it's not a bumper crop for free agent weapons this off-season, so we may have to run it back with the same pieces and whomever we draft.
Agree there not a lot of WR options in the FA market. But there is a trade as an option (I'm not advocating a trade, but in theory that is a way to improve the WR talent absent any decent FA's).
I love how you talk about how Herbert might never win anything of note as if Jones has ever won anything of note.
I will be rooting just as hard as all of you for Jones and for the Giants to win on Sunday. That does not mean that Herbert is not objectively a better QB than Jones.
And lastly, god help the Herbert fan boys here if this guy doesn’t win anything of note over his career. Can’t go one thread without the usual ball washing. And it’s not even relevant. Yea he can spin it. He’s big he’s strong. Great. Who cares.
That was actually very funny.
Being a great passer can consist of a lot of variables like most things are regarding this position.
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And lastly, god help the Herbert fan boys here if this guy doesn’t win anything of note over his career. Can’t go one thread without the usual ball washing. And it’s not even relevant. Yea he can spin it. He’s big he’s strong. Great. Who cares.
That was actually very funny.
Love Herbert. He’s a terrific young qb. I’ll leave it at that.
Jones finally had a team around him this season. A far from perfect team but a functional team. He delivered. I think he can deliver even more, if and when needed.
If the giants think Jones can’t lead an above average passing game they won’t sign him to a long term deal.
I really couldn’t care less about 19-21 anymore. It’s just the backstory with jones now. You want to tell me he sucked those years, fine, don’t care. We can argue the chicken and the egg thing, it’s pointless. I know he’s viable now and that’s all I care about going forward.
If he won't sign a 2-3 year deal for less than the FT AAV then just tag him and make him prove more.
Any idea of giving him a 5 year, 200M contract right now is ludicrous.
Eli.. played in an era with a prime Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Romo, Big Ben.. most people would put Eli behind almost all of them.. but he beat a Romo, Favre, Rodgers and Brady TWICE when it counted...
Simms played in an era with Marino, Montana, Kelly, Elway, and you put Simms behind them.. but he BEAT Elway and Montana when it counted ( he gets no credit for Kelly cause Hoss was the QB for that SB)
What is my point... You dont have to have the greatest QB on the planet to win.. you need to find a guy you can win WITH.. Hopefully Jones is that guy.
Eli.. played in an era with a prime Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Romo, Big Ben.. most people would put Eli behind almost all of them.. but he beat a Romo, Favre, Rodgers and Brady TWICE when it counted...
Simms played in an era with Marino, Montana, Kelly, Elway, and you put Simms behind them.. but he BEAT Elway and Montana when it counted ( he gets no credit for Kelly cause Hoss was the QB for that SB)
What is my point... You dont have to have the greatest QB on the planet to win.. you need to find a guy you can win WITH.. Hopefully Jones is that guy.
It is easier to try to find a top8 qb than it is to win with the 15th best qb. It is easier to land a HOF QB than it is to build the 2000 Ravens. That's why you hear it. It's not a narrative. It's an opinion backed up by analysis.
Eli.. played in an era with a prime Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Romo, Big Ben.. most people would put Eli behind almost all of them.. but he beat a Romo, Favre, Rodgers and Brady TWICE when it counted...
Simms played in an era with Marino, Montana, Kelly, Elway, and you put Simms behind them.. but he BEAT Elway and Montana when it counted ( he gets no credit for Kelly cause Hoss was the QB for that SB)
What is my point... You dont have to have the greatest QB on the planet to win.. you need to find a guy you can win WITH.. Hopefully Jones is that guy.
First off, nothing pre salary cap is comparable. Simms has no bearing in this conversation.
Secondly, it is not as simple as finding a QB you can win with. It is either you can win the championship with him on a rookie contract, or you find a QB that can win a championship while taking up a fifth of the cap.
Eli was clearly a top 10 qb. In his prime, he was in the second tier with Big Ben, Rivers, and Romo. Eli was obviously able to raise his game to a great level in the biggest games.
Again, it is not as simple as, we can win with Jones, give him $40m a year. I would put DJ in the same tier with above average/good but not good enough with guys like Cousins, Tannehill, Carr and Goff. I guess you could throw Geno in there as well. The Raiders already have buyers remorse and are dumping Carr because he is not worth $40M.
It is going to be difficult to put great talent around him, both oline and weapons with him eating a huge chunk of cap. Not to mention that based on the evidence we have, he also needs a good defense to win in the NFL.
So if he is not good enough to win it all with a huge contract then he is not worth backing up the brinks truck for.
We will see how he does in the playoffs. Hopefully he proves me wrong.
I would guess JS Does as well if he’s worth a damn.
You need a good enough one in the regular season and then a elite one in the playoffs. They don't have to be elite in the playoffs throughout. Just at the right times and in the biggest moments.
Jones gets his first chance. Looking forward to it.
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the next few years. Lol.
Maybe we should just tag Jones and then get a rookie QB in place in the next draft or subsequent one.
1. The idea that you need a QB on his rookie contract to win the SB isn't based on reality. Only 1 (Mahomes) of the last 8 or so SB winning QBs was on his rookie contract.
2. The idea that it's easy to find a franchise QB in the draft is WAY not based on reality. The draft is a total crapshoot, especially for QBs. Based on historical stats, even a QB drafted in the first round, is about TEN times more likely to fail than to become even a decent franchise QB.
3. The idea that $35M AAV for Jones is going to hamstring the Giants isn't based on reality. That's barely top ten money for an ascending QB who's already performing in the top ten, with room to improve (especially with better receivers). The rumored contract could look like a bargain in a year or two.
4. Let the professionals worry about the cap.
So let me summarize your position...
*QBs on rookie deals aren't really all that helpful to a super bowl cause.
*Finding Franchise QBs in the draft including Rd1 are really pipe-dreams, except of course our current starter even though he was the #6 overall pick
*Giving Daniel Jones a raise from his current $6.5M AAV to $35M+ AAV doesn't make a bit of difference to roster building
*Giant fans on BBI shouldn't ever engage in cap discussions on this thread or any other because the Giants have proven themselves to be very adept at managing that process.
Will let that sink in a bit.
He had ONE Superbowl game appearance, taking the 14-2 Dolphins to Super Bowl XIX against the 49'er team lead by Joe Montana...and lost. Never got back to the Super Bowl.
Yes, you need a good QB. Preferably an elite one. But being one of the best QB's in your generation isn't the key to winning the big one. You need to build the ENTIRE team to do that.
Herbert WILL be a great QB. But I can give you THREE good reasons why Daniel Jones is more likely to make the Super Bowl before him.
Burrow, Allen and Mahomes!
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I'm pretty much sick of this BS narrative.. there are what 5-6 top tier QBs in the league right now.. and thats usually all there ever in any era.. ever.. maybe.. what the hell are the other 25-27 other teams supposed to do? You find a guy you can WIN with..
Eli.. played in an era with a prime Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Romo, Big Ben.. most people would put Eli behind almost all of them.. but he beat a Romo, Favre, Rodgers and Brady TWICE when it counted...
Simms played in an era with Marino, Montana, Kelly, Elway, and you put Simms behind them.. but he BEAT Elway and Montana when it counted ( he gets no credit for Kelly cause Hoss was the QB for that SB)
What is my point... You dont have to have the greatest QB on the planet to win.. you need to find a guy you can win WITH.. Hopefully Jones is that guy.
First off, nothing pre salary cap is comparable. Simms has no bearing in this conversation.
Secondly, it is not as simple as finding a QB you can win with. It is either you can win the championship with him on a rookie contract, or you find a QB that can win a championship while taking up a fifth of the cap.
Eli was clearly a top 10 qb. In his prime, he was in the second tier with Big Ben, Rivers, and Romo. Eli was obviously able to raise his game to a great level in the biggest games.
Again, it is not as simple as, we can win with Jones, give him $40m a year. I would put DJ in the same tier with above average/good but not good enough with guys like Cousins, Tannehill, Carr and Goff. I guess you could throw Geno in there as well. The Raiders already have buyers remorse and are dumping Carr because he is not worth $40M.
It is going to be difficult to put great talent around him, both oline and weapons with him eating a huge chunk of cap. Not to mention that based on the evidence we have, he also needs a good defense to win in the NFL.
So if he is not good enough to win it all with a huge contract then he is not worth backing up the brinks truck for.
We will see how he does in the playoffs. Hopefully he proves me wrong.
He needs a good defense like all QBs. It is the job of GM to build the team and coach to make the scheme. That is why they get paid the big bucks. Wait until you see the contract before you panic. Life is never perfect.
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In comment 15986840 chick310 said:
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the next few years. Lol.
Maybe we should just tag Jones and then get a rookie QB in place in the next draft or subsequent one.
1. The idea that you need a QB on his rookie contract to win the SB isn't based on reality. Only 1 (Mahomes) of the last 8 or so SB winning QBs was on his rookie contract.
2. The idea that it's easy to find a franchise QB in the draft is WAY not based on reality. The draft is a total crapshoot, especially for QBs. Based on historical stats, even a QB drafted in the first round, is about TEN times more likely to fail than to become even a decent franchise QB.
3. The idea that $35M AAV for Jones is going to hamstring the Giants isn't based on reality. That's barely top ten money for an ascending QB who's already performing in the top ten, with room to improve (especially with better receivers). The rumored contract could look like a bargain in a year or two.
4. Let the professionals worry about the cap.
So let me summarize your position...
*QBs on rookie deals aren't really all that helpful to a super bowl cause.
*Finding Franchise QBs in the draft including Rd1 are really pipe-dreams, except of course our current starter even though he was the #6 overall pick
*Giving Daniel Jones a raise from his current $6.5M AAV to $35M+ AAV doesn't make a bit of difference to roster building
*Giant fans on BBI shouldn't ever engage in cap discussions on this thread or any other because the Giants have proven themselves to be very adept at managing that process.
Will let that sink in a bit.
It is amazing.