Just know He's your QB no matter what happens saturday night.
If what we've seen from Jones over the past 6 weeks is his evolution into an elite qb, the Giants have a unique opportunity to wrestle control of this division for sometime between Jones and Daboll, regardless of Saturday night. Most of the elite qb talent currently resides in the AFC, and the NFC is up for grabs. If Jones can join the likes of Allen, Herbert, and Burrow, the Eagles reign will be short lived.
He hasn‘t shown you enough in the clutch this year? He has to do it against arguably the best team in the NFC, before you’re converted? Lawd.
Yes. Big performance in a big game against a really good defense. This is the last hurdle he has to clear. Sorry, but to me that's reasonable. This is something he hasn't done yet. This separates the Kirk Cousins and the Jared Goffs from the Josh Allens and Joe Burrows...this kind of game means that much.
since he was drafted, was if you gave the guy weapons could he take us all the way. Well, we didn't give him much and look what he's done. That's enough for me, not sure what anyone else wants from the guy at this point. Took him some time to learn yet anew system, but he looks like he's arrived to me.
since he was drafted, was if you gave the guy weapons could he take us all the way. Well, we didn't give him much and look what he's done. That's enough for me, not sure what anyone else wants from the guy at this point. Took him some time to learn yet anew system, but he looks like he's arrived to me.
Has any QB won a playoff game lead by a 5th rounder WR passing attack?
Why do people who werent convinced even through mid season feel the need to save face?
Whether you were pro or anti, neither position was terribly unreasonable.
Weird thing to feel the need to justify.
Cool man. I think this is the opposite of trying to save face. But that's a take, I guess. I'm rooting for DJ to continue what he's done recently. I would love to see it.
My questions are suppose they win and he didn't carry the team by
...if he does what Allen and Burrow has done, and he does it with what would be a far less talented WR crew, we can agree that he's better than they are?
I mean, since the comps matter so much, doing the same with less would suggest a superior performance...no?
Jones is super excited that allstarjim will maybe finally accept him as “his quarterback” this is the moment he has been waiting for! Probably gonna play with extra motivation now. I know he has been waiting for this! Jfc
since he was drafted, was if you gave the guy weapons could he take us all the way. Well, we didn't give him much and look what he's done. That's enough for me, not sure what anyone else wants from the guy at this point. Took him some time to learn yet anew system, but he looks like he's arrived to me.
Has any QB won a playoff game lead by a 5th rounder WR passing attack?
Good thing to research, but the answer is probably yes.
At any rate, we all know it's how the players perform and what they become, not where they are drafted. Love what Hodgins has done. If there was a re-draft, he wouldn't go undrafted given his performance since he's been here.
Count me in the camp that he has earned a regular role here. I know some people disagree about how good he can be, but I love his game. There's a role and there's precedent for WRs with his profile (lack of deep speed) finding huge success.
And don't get me wrong, I know that there still leaves much to be desired in this passing attack, but he gives us some measure of stability at the position going into next year, keep adding.
...if he does what Allen and Burrow has done, and he does it with what would be a far less talented WR crew, we can agree that he's better than they are?
I mean, since the comps matter so much, doing the same with less would suggest a superior performance...no?
No, because those guys have done it more than a few times. But it could mean you can see he can reserve a seat at the table with continued performance.
puts them in a position to win the game, but special teams, the defense, another individual player, etc does something to lose the game then it's all for naught and Jones no longer has your respect... OK.
Jones is super excited that allstarjim will maybe finally accept him as “his quarterback” this is the moment he has been waiting for! Probably gonna play with extra motivation now. I know he has been waiting for this! Jfc
Nick, I doubt DJ reads BBI. We're not that important, bro.
He hasn‘t shown you enough in the clutch this year? He has to do it against arguably the best team in the NFC, before you’re converted? Lawd.
Arguably the best team in the NFL, with the best pass rush, one of the best overall defenses, after they had a bye week, on the road in front of one of the most hostile crowds in the league, in the playoffs. Heck, does he want it to be in freezing rain and 30 mph winds too? Yeah, he hasn't set the bar high at all. Hell, that's a huge job for Mahomes with all the weapons he has.
...if he does what Allen and Burrow has done, and he does it with what would be a far less talented WR crew, we can agree that he's better than they are?
I mean, since the comps matter so much, doing the same with less would suggest a superior performance...no?
No, because those guys have done it more than a few times. But it could mean you can see he can reserve a seat at the table with continued performance.
not sure what anyone else wants from the guy at this point.
allstarjim is literally telling you what he needs to see.
Yeah, I get that mark, I should have been clearer. What I'm trying to say is, in my belief that benchmark is a little outrageous given what he has been given to work with and how many different systems he has been asked to learn. I started the season unsure even doubtful of Jones.
puts them in a position to win the game, but special teams, the defense, another individual player, etc does something to lose the game then it's all for naught and Jones no longer has your respect... OK.
DJ already has had my respect. He has come a long way in his development, and it isn't easy to do on this team in this city.
The desire for a QB that can lead a team to the playoffs, and by his mere presence makes the team a Super Bowl contender going into any season week 1, is my greatest desire for this team. That doesn't mean he doesn't have my respect, though.
...if he does what Allen and Burrow has done, and he does it with what would be a far less talented WR crew, we can agree that he's better than they are?
I mean, since the comps matter so much, doing the same with less would suggest a superior performance...no?
No, because those guys have done it more than a few times. But it could mean you can see he can reserve a seat at the table with continued performance.
We know the Giants lack talent, specifically offensively and you need to see your QB carry your team to victory before you are sold?
Before you are sold that he's one of the best QB's in the NFL or sold that he's a franchise QB? Not sure what else DJ needs to do for me at this point. He's proven that he can run this offense and he SHOULD improve.
We know the Giants lack talent, specifically offensively and you need to see your QB carry your team to victory before you are sold?
Before you are sold that he's one of the best QB's in the NFL or sold that he's a franchise QB? Not sure what else DJ needs to do for me at this point. He's proven that he can run this offense and he SHOULD improve.
To me these things go hand-in-hand. Is it a problem I desire a QB that is thought of as one of the top 4 or 5 QBs in the league? One that gives us the feeling going into every season the way that Buffalo fans and Kansas City fans have the feeling they do going into a season? Isn't that what we all want?
I love Eli, but in my lifetime, we've never had that. I defend Eli all the time to my wife, a diehard Giants' fan as well, because he put two Lombardis in the trophy case, nothing can take that away. But a team that becomes a perennial playoff team in large part because of the excellence of the QB? I would love to see that in my lifetime.
We know the Giants lack talent, specifically offensively and you need to see your QB carry your team to victory before you are sold?
Before you are sold that he's one of the best QB's in the NFL or sold that he's a franchise QB? Not sure what else DJ needs to do for me at this point. He's proven that he can run this offense and he SHOULD improve.
To me these things go hand-in-hand. Is it a problem I desire a QB that is thought of as one of the top 4 or 5 QBs in the league? One that gives us the feeling going into every season the way that Buffalo fans and Kansas City fans have the feeling they do going into a season? Isn't that what we all want?
I love Eli, but in my lifetime, we've never had that. I defend Eli all the time to my wife, a diehard Giants' fan as well, because he put two Lombardis in the trophy case, nothing can take that away. But a team that becomes a perennial playoff team in large part because of the excellence of the QB? I would love to see that in my lifetime.
It would take a Mahomes'ian effort for DJ to carry this team to victory. It's an unfair expectation from a guy that's just coming into his own. He's already shown that he has elite talent, now we just need him to continue to progress. This game isn't going to tell you anything, IMO.
Anyway, some of you are already building in excuses like you expect him to suck on Saturday night. Damn, where is your belief? If he is who you guys have been saying, at the least he's going to put this team in position to win.
Let's see that! Super stoked to see it on Saturday night!
if your not sold now nit sure what you were waiting for
I didn't realize this game was Daniel Jones vs. the Philadelphia Eagles. I thought it was the Giants vs. the Eagles.
If your criteria for throwing your full support behind a QB is that he performs like Mahomes or Burrow every week (as if these guys grow on trees), that's your choice. The rest of us will have fun with this.
RE: RE: if your not sold now nit sure what you were waiting for
I didn't realize this game was Daniel Jones vs. the Philadelphia Eagles. I thought it was the Giants vs. the Eagles.
If your criteria for throwing your full support behind a QB is that he performs like Mahomes or Burrow every week (as if these guys grow on trees), that's your choice. The rest of us will have fun with this.
Oh I'm enjoying this as much as you. And you're right, they don't grow on trees. How cool would it be if that's what DJ becomes, or if not, if the next guy does?
DJ threw that showed me he will be an elite QB in the Mahommes, Allen and Burrows class. The throw to Hodgins to the left sideline on 2 and 10 from the 45 yd line. DJ was slightly flushed from the pocket and he sled to his left and threw that sideline pass. It was reminiscent of the Eli throw to Manningham. Hodgins caught it and tapped his toes to stay inbounds. And the other pass was to the coffin corner to Slayton. It was on a dime to the endzone corner to Slayton with a defender draped all over him. DJ dropped right into Slayton's hands but he couldn't hold on to it which was one of two Slayton's drops. DJ couldn't have thrown either passes better.
It would take a Mahomes'ian effort for DJ to carry this team to victory. It's an unfair expectation from a guy that's just coming into his own. He's already shown that he has elite talent, now we just need him to continue to progress. This game isn't going to tell you anything, IMO.
A Mahomes'ian effort that includes good pass blocking up front. How quickly people forget that SB against Tampa. If the Eagles DL dominates the Giants OL like that, no QB would stand a chance.
But pulling off the victory this week is going to require everybody to step up another level, which is highly improbable.
If Jones can play lights out again, even if we don't win, I think there'll be more people sharing my assessment of top 5, then there will be of those still questioning if he's good enough.
is the next step for Jones and the Giants as a whole team and organization to achieve.
This is, of course, true generally speaking. But doing it with this roster is a pretty tall challenge. As usual, and per the OP, BBI will put too much weight on the outcome of this one game. (not saying you are)
If Jones beats Philly at Phily after they've had a bye and were essentially the best team in football all year, then you'll be on board.
Give me a break man. Seriously. If that's your reasoning, and he actually does beat them, you'll find something else to be pissed about when he has a bad game and you'll be back to the "is he the guy?" nonsense yet again.
This. There were only a select few who saw DJ had great traits but maybe not enough of a support system like Mara hinted at. Now this year finally proved that he can maximize the talent around him in a good system.
The last couple of games and it's crescendo is because the talent around him is also now getting healthier, improving and playing well in the parameters of the new offense. Plus Hodgins has been a revelation and huge addition to the WR stable.
With that said they go into Philly still on the short end talent wise especially when comparing the receivers and the corners. Thats a big disadvantage in the passing game offensively and defensively.
If Daniel doesnt light up this team like he did Minny it doesn't suddenly mean he somehow sucks as a QB again.
Hes already done just about all you could ask of a legitimate franchise QB relative to the talent around him.
That's recency bias talking. If Jones goes out and throws 3 interceptions and the offense is anemic against our divisional rival, expect the debate to return. You're kidding yourself if you don't think that would happen.
is the next step for Jones and the Giants as a whole team and organization to achieve.
This is, of course, true generally speaking. But doing it with this roster is a pretty tall challenge. As usual, and per the OP, BBI will put too much weight on the outcome of this one game. (not saying you are)
It's time to see where NYG is at, this is a measuring stick game and opportunity! If they're not ready, so be it, it will help light the path forward into the offseason.
DJ threw that showed me he will be an elite QB in the Mahommes, Allen and Burrows class. The throw to Hodgins to the left sideline on 2 and 10 from the 45 yd line. DJ was slightly flushed from the pocket and he sled to his left and threw that sideline pass. It was reminiscent of the Eli throw to Manningham. Hodgins caught it and tapped his toes to stay inbounds. And the other pass was to the coffin corner to Slayton. It was on a dime to the endzone corner to Slayton with a defender draped all over him. DJ dropped right into Slayton's hands but he couldn't hold on to it which was one of two Slayton's drops. DJ couldn't have thrown either passes better.
Slayton is not an ideal guy to throw an endzone fade.
But pulling off the victory this week is going to require everybody to step up another level, which is highly improbable.
If Jones can play lights out again, even if we don't win, I think there'll be more people sharing my assessment of top 5, then there will be of those still questioning if he's good enough.
I think that's generous.
I know people will disagree, but I have a very clear top 3, that's Mahomes, Josh Allen, Joe Burrow. After that it's clear to me it's Herbert and Hurts, not necessarily in that order.
Then there's Rodgers (yes, still), Stafford, Lamar, and Dak.
DJ is in transition. He could be in this group, maybe in the next group with Jared Goff and Cousins and some others. Much like Trevor Lawrence. You're starting to see with Lawrence that he could be ascending and we don't know yet where he's going to land, that's kind of how I feel about DJ right now.
DJ threw that showed me he will be an elite QB in the Mahommes, Allen and Burrows class. The throw to Hodgins to the left sideline on 2 and 10 from the 45 yd line. DJ was slightly flushed from the pocket and he sled to his left and threw that sideline pass. It was reminiscent of the Eli throw to Manningham. Hodgins caught it and tapped his toes to stay inbounds. And the other pass was to the coffin corner to Slayton. It was on a dime to the endzone corner to Slayton with a defender draped all over him. DJ dropped right into Slayton's hands but he couldn't hold on to it which was one of two Slayton's drops. DJ couldn't have thrown either passes better.
Good post. There were some off-schedule throws he made in that Vikings game that I thought...hey, this could be a sign of his continued evolution. That's something I had not yet given him a lot of credit for in his toolbox. So that was really encouraging to me.
I didn't realize this game was Daniel Jones vs. the Philadelphia Eagles. I thought it was the Giants vs. the Eagles.
If your criteria for throwing your full support behind a QB is that he performs like Mahomes or Burrow every week (as if these guys grow on trees), that's your choice. The rest of us will have fun with this.
Oh I'm enjoying this as much as you. And you're right, they don't grow on trees. How cool would it be if that's what DJ becomes, or if not, if the next guy does?
How good would it be if DJ just already is a damn good QB and a guy we can win a Super Bowl with. The goal posts cant keep moving with our judgements on this kid. This eerily similar to the dichotomy on Eli before he won a Super Bowl ....even then there were still folks wh couldnt come around and say he was a great QB.
That's recency bias talking. If Jones goes out and throws 3 interceptions and the offense is anemic against our divisional rival, expect the debate to return. You're kidding yourself if you don't think that would happen.
I mean, it's fair. You have to take the totality of the season, and a little less relevant, but still somewhat relevant, the career to date.
The offensive output was pedestrian this year overall. 3900 total yards and 22 TDs from DJ (total passing and rushing). These are ok numbers, but just ok. We've talked about the mitigating factors ad nauseum. I really do think next season, no matter what happens on Saturday, he's going to have a much more stable situation going into the year with. I'm confident there's going to be at least one additional legitimate playmaker, and the 2nd year in the system should give him a better start to the year, and obviously, as previously stated, I think having Hodgins, who he has clear chemistry with, having him for a full slate of games will be helpful to.
No matter what happens, even if I'm not a total believer, I think there's real positive things to feel good about going into next year.
Just hopeful we can have good injury luck next year and let the chips fall where they may.
This team is definitely on the rise. Hopefully we can keep Wink, because I believe they're going to add a piece or two to the defense that will elevate them to a top NFL unit.
It's very possible this defense is on the verge of being absolutely dominant.
He hasn‘t shown you enough in the clutch this year? He has to do it against arguably the best team in the NFC, before you’re converted? Lawd.
Yes. Big performance in a big game against a really good defense. This is the last hurdle he has to clear. Sorry, but to me that's reasonable. This is something he hasn't done yet. This separates the Kirk Cousins and the Jared Goffs from the Josh Allens and Joe Burrows...this kind of game means that much.
don't know, but I'm guessing you meant to say "...from the Josh Allens + Diggs + Davis + Knox" and "Joe Burrows + Higgins + Chase + Boyd". I could be wrong though. Just a minor difference.
This Saturday night, let me put it right here...you will get the mea culpas from me.
DJ will have won me over, and that's my QB. Go out and beat these philthy birdies.
Will be elated to be proven wrong.
The Giants go into this game with a 9-win season, as the #6 seed, playing on the road against the #1 seed. Last I heard, the Eagles were favored by more than a touchdown. Ok, so you're saying that if Jones leads the Giants to a win, you'll be sold. On the other hand, if he throws three picks and stinks up the joint, you won't be. I guess that's fair.
But this could go a lot of different ways. Jones could play well and the Giants could still lose; the defense has been less than dominant. Barkley could run wild and Jones could be less central, and the Giants could win that way. The Giants could win with defensive and/or special teams scores, while Jones is just ok. The Eagles could overwhelm the Giants' O line, putting Jones under duress all night. The Giants could have Engram-style interceptions, where the pass hits the receiver in the hands; or drops (like Slayton's on Sunday); or fumbles on completed passes (like Slayton's against the Colts).
Remember that Eli was the best player on the Giants for their loss in Green Bay after the boat trip. Nobody put that loss in Eli.
My question is: What exactly does Jones have to do for you to be sold on him?
If the answer is: "Have another game like his last two," that really does seem unfair to me. The Eagles are a much better team than the Colts and a much better defense than the Vikings. If Jones had a game against them like he had against the Vikings, we'd be talking about whether he's become an elite QB, not about whether he should be the Giants' QB going forward. How good is good enough?
Jones is incredibly determined to excel. He has consistently identified and corrected the flaws in his own game. He's a grinder, he's smart and he's relentless. On the field, he's fearless. Does he still have flaws? Sure. But he may not have hit his ceiling yet. He's still improving.
This Saturday night, let me put it right here...you will get the mea culpas from me.
DJ will have won me over, and that's my QB. Go out and beat these philthy birdies.
Will be elated to be proven wrong.
The Giants go into this game with a 9-win season, as the #6 seed, playing on the road against the #1 seed. Last I heard, the Eagles were favored by more than a touchdown. Ok, so you're saying that if Jones leads the Giants to a win, you'll be sold. On the other hand, if he throws three picks and stinks up the joint, you won't be. I guess that's fair.
But this could go a lot of different ways. Jones could play well and the Giants could still lose; the defense has been less than dominant. Barkley could run wild and Jones could be less central, and the Giants could win that way. The Giants could win with defensive and/or special teams scores, while Jones is just ok. The Eagles could overwhelm the Giants' O line, putting Jones under duress all night. The Giants could have Engram-style interceptions, where the pass hits the receiver in the hands; or drops (like Slayton's on Sunday); or fumbles on completed passes (like Slayton's against the Colts).
Remember that Eli was the best player on the Giants for their loss in Green Bay after the boat trip. Nobody put that loss in Eli.
My question is: What exactly does Jones have to do for you to be sold on him?
If the answer is: "Have another game like his last two," that really does seem unfair to me. The Eagles are a much better team than the Colts and a much better defense than the Vikings. If Jones had a game against them like he had against the Vikings, we'd be talking about whether he's become an elite QB, not about whether he should be the Giants' QB going forward. How good is good enough?
Jones is incredibly determined to excel. He has consistently identified and corrected the flaws in his own game. He's a grinder, he's smart and he's relentless. On the field, he's fearless. Does he still have flaws? Sure. But he may not have hit his ceiling yet. He's still improving.
Is it more him improving or the support system around him? Maybe he does this last year if all things were equal.
If Jones plays like he did last week, win or lose, I’ll be sold. If we see a game like Detroit or the first Eagles game and they lose badly it’ll still be incomplete with question marks going forward.
RE: @allstarjim: Serious question, no snark or sarcasm intended:
This Saturday night, let me put it right here...you will get the mea culpas from me.
DJ will have won me over, and that's my QB. Go out and beat these philthy birdies.
Will be elated to be proven wrong.
The Giants go into this game with a 9-win season, as the #6 seed, playing on the road against the #1 seed. Last I heard, the Eagles were favored by more than a touchdown. Ok, so you're saying that if Jones leads the Giants to a win, you'll be sold. On the other hand, if he throws three picks and stinks up the joint, you won't be. I guess that's fair.
But this could go a lot of different ways. Jones could play well and the Giants could still lose; the defense has been less than dominant. Barkley could run wild and Jones could be less central, and the Giants could win that way. The Giants could win with defensive and/or special teams scores, while Jones is just ok. The Eagles could overwhelm the Giants' O line, putting Jones under duress all night. The Giants could have Engram-style interceptions, where the pass hits the receiver in the hands; or drops (like Slayton's on Sunday); or fumbles on completed passes (like Slayton's against the Colts).
Remember that Eli was the best player on the Giants for their loss in Green Bay after the boat trip. Nobody put that loss in Eli.
My question is: What exactly does Jones have to do for you to be sold on him?
If the answer is: "Have another game like his last two," that really does seem unfair to me. The Eagles are a much better team than the Colts and a much better defense than the Vikings. If Jones had a game against them like he had against the Vikings, we'd be talking about whether he's become an elite QB, not about whether he should be the Giants' QB going forward. How good is good enough?
Jones is incredibly determined to excel. He has consistently identified and corrected the flaws in his own game. He's a grinder, he's smart and he's relentless. On the field, he's fearless. Does he still have flaws? Sure. But he may not have hit his ceiling yet. He's still improving.
Perspective.
The recievers and the pass pro has let DJ down a whole lot more than him not picking them up.
If they give him something to work with he more times than not does something with it.
Neal gave up more pressures than any other OT last game. Slayton had two big drops, one could have cost them the game. At least they played better than the last Minny game though where I counted 6 drops and a Bellinger fumble.
since he was drafted, was if you gave the guy weapons could he take us all the way. Well, we didn't give him much and look what he's done. That's enough for me, not sure what anyone else wants from the guy at this point. Took him some time to learn yet anew system, but he looks like he's arrived to me.
Has any QB won a playoff game lead by a 5th rounder WR passing attack?
Good thing to research, but the answer is probably yes.
At any rate, we all know it's how the players perform and what they become, not where they are drafted. Love what Hodgins has done. If there was a re-draft, he wouldn't go undrafted given his performance since he's been here.
Count me in the camp that he has earned a regular role here. I know some people disagree about how good he can be, but I love his game. There's a role and there's precedent for WRs with his profile (lack of deep speed) finding huge success.
And don't get me wrong, I know that there still leaves much to be desired in this passing attack, but he gives us some measure of stability at the position going into next year, keep adding.
Funny that you're good to go with Hodgins having a regular role, but Jones, you still need to see him win this game.
If Jones plays like he did last week, win or lose, I’ll be sold. If we see a game like Detroit or the first Eagles game and they lose badly it’ll still be incomplete with question marks going forward.
No, some of us are just rational Giants fans. Most of BBI, you included, thought this team would go 4-13 and Jones wouldn't even be the starter by mid season.
Instead, they win 9 games, Jones is playing like a top 5 QB in the sport, they win a playoff game in one of the hardest places to play, and the jury is still out for you.
No, some of us are just rational Giants fans. Most of BBI, you included, thought this team would go 4-13 and Jones wouldn't even be the starter by mid season.
Instead, they win 9 games, Jones is playing like a top 5 QB in the sport, they win a playoff game in one of the hardest places to play, and the jury is still out for you.
First of all, you’re far from rational. Secondly, I never said Jones wouldn’t be the starter by the end of the year. You don’t like lying, but yet here you are making shit up again. ASJ has been pretty level headed on Jones this year from what I’ve seen.
And yes, if we see a version of 2021 Jones out there on Sunday the jury will still be out for me. Why is that an issue and why does that make me irrational? Jones has improved this year and been outstanding three weeks in a row, but we also still need to see this for a full year next year. Lots of guys have career years then fizzle out. To quote you from the Lamar Jackson thread last week “why does this opinion offend people so much?”.
You really are the biggest hypocrite on this board, it’s astonishing that you don’t see it.
because you don't understand the concept of a QB having a bad game. That's why. If Daniel Jones doesn't play great on Saturday - what are you going to do? Are you going to assume that he's going to play poorly for the rest of his career?
QBs have bad games. He can't play every fucking game like he did against the Colts and the Vikings. Nobody does that. He's playing the position essentially perfectly the last two starts. He's going to make a mistake.
don't listen to these guys. They're all insecure. They can't just be happy with the Giants and their own fandom. you come to the conclusion you feel is best when you want to.
don't listen to these guys. They're all insecure. They can't just be happy with the Giants and their own fandom. you come to the conclusion you feel is best when you want to.
because you don't understand the concept of a QB having a bad game. That's why. If Daniel Jones doesn't play great on Saturday - what are you going to do? Are you going to assume that he's going to play poorly for the rest of his career?
QBs have bad games. He can't play every fucking game like he did against the Colts and the Vikings. Nobody does that. He's playing the position essentially perfectly the last two starts. He's going to make a mistake.
yes QBs will have bad games. of course. But at some point you have to expect Jones to have a majority of very good or great games. Maybe a couple of bad games. And zero stinkers. When Jones goes a full season like that, I'll buy in.
because you don't understand the concept of a QB having a bad game. That's why. If Daniel Jones doesn't play great on Saturday - what are you going to do? Are you going to assume that he's going to play poorly for the rest of his career?
QBs have bad games. He can't play every fucking game like he did against the Colts and the Vikings. Nobody does that. He's playing the position essentially perfectly the last two starts. He's going to make a mistake.
Did I say I’m out on Daniel Jones if he has a bad game Saturday? No I did not. I said it’s incomplete pending what we see from him next year. What is so offensive about that opinion?
If Daniel Jones doesn’t play well on Sunday I need to see what happens next year. That’s a reasonable opinion. I don’t even need to see 17 Vikings type games next year, but it’s going to need to be around 10 to say he’s a franchise QB for the next 10 years.
What are you going to do if Jones isn’t good next year since you want answers from everyone else?
Oh yeah? You've bought into Josh Allen right? He has a combined 19 turnovers this year and has been pretty bad in a game or two.
If Jones is as good as you think, I am saying I will buy in when he has a majority of very good or great games. It will be inevitable. And I would give him a pass if he has a subpar game vs Philly. But next season he would need to continue to ball out as he has against the Vikings. You have faith he'll do it right? Then why do you keep bitching?
if Jones "isn't good" next year - I'll be disappointed sure.
But again, most fans here said that if Jones didn't throw 30 TDs, that means he's really not a good NFL QB. Clearly, there was enough evidence to completely shatter that theory without Jones playing the way he is, but I think his play lately put that stupid argument to rest.
So...not entirely sure what your definition of "isn't good" is...that definition to me is a QB who clearly just can't make throws and doesn't see the field. I would put Mitch Trubisky in this category of "not good." He's a NFL player and can be alright in spots, just not a good quarterback.
I think as long as Jones is the Giants QB for the next 5-6 years, barring injury he should play very well. If he reverts back to 2020 or some of 2021 Jones...well then, I guess it was a mirage.
But it seems to be a flawed perspective. I don't know how many NFL QBs could have played as well as Jones has much of this year and especially in the last two weeks he played.
I think Jones just had the best three game stretch of his career.
Passing: 5 TDs, 1 INT. 812 yards. Pace of 4,600 yards, 28 TDs, 6 INTs.
Rushing: 2 TDs, 203 yards rushing. Pace of 1,150 yards, 11 TDs.
The stats show an elite three game stretch. The eyes tell you he's been elite these three games. I do not think the three game stretch is what we've seen from Daniel Jones the rest of the season. He's been a different QB the past three games he's played, demonstrating a significantly higher ceiling than he's had all season.
grateful, yeah, funny that some of the "Jones isn't on the same planet as Herbert" posters are no longer posting here.
We all can agree that Herbert has more talent. That being said, Jones played the position better this year, and certainly towards the end of the year/playoffs.
I think Jones just had the best three game stretch of his career.
Passing: 5 TDs, 1 INT. 812 yards. Pace of 4,600 yards, 28 TDs, 6 INTs.
Rushing: 2 TDs, 203 yards rushing. Pace of 1,150 yards, 11 TDs.
The stats show an elite three game stretch. The eyes tell you he's been elite these three games. I do not think the three game stretch is what we've seen from Daniel Jones the rest of the season. He's been a different QB the past three games he's played, demonstrating a significantly higher ceiling than he's had all season.
Ascending player. We are seeing the light go on and the game get slower. Clearly paying with confidence. He will produce more with better weapons. We got "the guy" I would not have been patient enough to ever see it. Glad they did not draft a QB this year like I wanted.
I think Jones just had the best three game stretch of his career.
He's been a different QB the past three games he's played, demonstrating a significantly higher ceiling than he's had all season.
Correct, Jones and the team have played a different brand (and reached another success level) of football in the three wins. Keep doing it, beat the Eagles, and the questions will continue to dwindle.
if Jones "isn't good" next year - I'll be disappointed sure.
But again, most fans here said that if Jones didn't throw 30 TDs, that means he's really not a good NFL QB. Clearly, there was enough evidence to completely shatter that theory without Jones playing the way he is, but I think his play lately put that stupid argument to rest.
So...not entirely sure what your definition of "isn't good" is...that definition to me is a QB who clearly just can't make throws and doesn't see the field. I would put Mitch Trubisky in this category of "not good." He's a NFL player and can be alright in spots, just not a good quarterback.
I think as long as Jones is the Giants QB for the next 5-6 years, barring injury he should play very well. If he reverts back to 2020 or some of 2021 Jones...well then, I guess it was a mirage.
So again I ask, what’s so offensive about what ASJ said and that if he doesn’t play well Saturday the grade is still incomplete? What’s wrong with wanting to see the last three weeks done somewhat consistently over a full season before coming to a conclusion?
If he continues to play like he has the last three starts we have a real chance to make the Superbowl. Make no mistake, he was great on Sunday, and if he plays that well again, I think we will beat the Eagles.
Why it’s offensive to expect Jones to play well now.
If we're expecting him to play well, that's a compliment.
What does "well" mean, though?
For me specifically, as I can’t speak for everyone else.
Make some of the same tough throws he made against Minnesota.
Put the team in a position to score 3 or more TDs
The actually stats are irrelevant to me Saturday, a turnover is fine too as long as it’s not a back breaker. Look the way he looked Sunday and keep the team competitive. Sunday was probably the first game I can say with confidence Jones did an elite job of manipulating the defense with his eyes. When you combine that with his legs and the effect his legs have on a defense, he’s at his best. If he can repeat those two things on Saturday he’s the best QB in Philly that day.
Let's not forget the offensive output before the Vikes, Colts, and Vikes games. No one was thinking 27-30+ points was coming especially as the competition got stronger. Those are two below average defenses Jones/Giants excelled against. Now, do it against a top defense in the playoffs. A progression of ascension is more than fair.
Jones has had a higher ceiling as a thrower than Hurts
Where Hurts was better was his ability to manipulate the defense with his eyes and legs. Up until this recent stretch we haven’t seen both at the same time at an elite level from Jones.
Sunday was him doing both those at his best. You want to be considered the best QB in the division heading into next year, do those things again - win or lose.
Let's not forget the offensive output before the Vikes, Colts, and Vikes games. No one was thinking 27-30+ points was coming especially as the competition got stronger. Those are two below average defenses Jones/Giants excelled against. Now, do it against a top defense in the playoffs. A progression of ascension is more than fair.
And 7 times in the Super Bowl. If the oline shits the bed, not saying Jones has to throw for 400 and win the game but he also can’t look bad just because of it. Franchise QBs find a way to battle through it.
Let's not forget the offensive output before the Vikes, Colts, and Vikes games. No one was thinking 27-30+ points was coming especially as the competition got stronger. Those are two below average defenses Jones/Giants excelled against. Now, do it against a top defense in the playoffs. A progression of ascension is more than fair.
And if the OL shits the bed big time?
Not every component of assessing Jones boils down to the OL, or the WR being a looming factor. There are aspects throughout a game where Jones is solely responsible for himself. A loss doesn't mean Jones is out or doesn't get an extension. It's a milestone game, look for milestone aspect to Jones' (and the Giants) performance, win or lose.
I think it is very tough to simply state that a qb has to overcome a bad OL performance. That seems too simple for something that is more complicated.
I specifically said he doesn’t have to win the game.
I was not challenging that. You said
Quote:
If the oline shits the bed, not saying Jones has to throw for 400 and win the game but he also can’t look bad just because of it. Franchise QBs find a way to battle through it.
To me, saying a qb "can't look bad" because the OL was bad does not make a lot of sense.
What does 'battling through it' mean? The qb still has a good game even with a bad OL performance? I don't think that happens all that often.
in the playoffs. Even SB winning HOF QBs lose playoff games; sometimes even lopsided ones. It's a team game.
Did you write off Eli after he lost his first playoff game? Then his 2nd?
Did Peyton suck because he lost his first 3 playoff games?
John Elway lost his first playoff game.
Aaron Rodgers lost his first playoff game.
Josh Allen lost his first playoff game.
Justin Herbert just lost his first playoff game. I could go on..
But yeah, let's judge Daniel Jones (after playing great and winning his first playoff game) on what he does in the final 8 against the #1 seed with possibly the leagues' best defense, including a really good DL (going against what is still a questionable OL), while playing with a far inferior roster.
It's anyone's right to let this game be the one that determines what they think of Jones. I'm just glad I don't think that way (that's the nicest way I could put it).
in the playoffs. Even SB winning HOF QBs lose playoff games; sometimes even lopsided ones. It's a team game.
Did you write off Eli after he lost his first playoff game? Then his 2nd?
Did Peyton suck because he lost his first 3 playoff games?
John Elway lost his first playoff game.
Aaron Rodgers lost his first playoff game.
Josh Allen lost his first playoff game.
Justin Herbert just lost his first playoff game. I could go on..
But yeah, let's judge Daniel Jones (after playing great and winning his first playoff game) on what he does in the final 8 against the #1 seed with possibly the leagues' best defense, including a really good DL (going against what is still a questionable OL), while playing with a far inferior roster.
It's anyone's right to let this game be the one that determines what they think of Jones. I'm just glad I don't think that way (that's the nicest way I could put it).
This is even more true when the other team has significantly better pieces than the Giants in most their units across the board. That cant just be summarily ignored or dismissed. The opportunities for big plays are quite likely going to be much fewer and far between this game than last.
Will he make the plays consistently in those smaller windows even though they will come less often? If so what will that look like? With NYGs receivers and OL that might not look like 31 pts again. If it does than credit to Daboll/Kafka for another masterful plan to find weaknesses in a team with much less of them and DJ for taking full advantage of that game plan. However this will be much tougher sledding and thats a lot because of their superiority in many of the key areas the QB relies upon.
And 7 times in the Super Bowl. If the oline shits the bed, not saying Jones has to throw for 400 and win the game but he also can’t look bad just because of it. Franchise QBs find a way to battle through it.
That game is a great example of survivorship bias. Burrow's team scored 19 points and it would've been 16 (in regulation at least) if not for a boneheaded late interception by Tannehill. His QBR was 33.4. That Titans defense was good, but not as good as Philly's defense is this year.
For 348 yards. Not saying Jones needs to do that, but I think that perfectly exemplifies my point. They didn’t score many points, didn’t get much from the running game, and almost lost the game but Burrow still looked good despite the circumstances.
Gotcha, I agree with what Jon said. That's fair. You probably communicated your point fine, I have reading comprehension issues that pop up from time to time.
For 348 yards. Not saying Jones needs to do that, but I think that perfectly exemplifies my point. They didn’t score many points, didn’t get much from the running game, and almost lost the game but Burrow still looked good despite the circumstances.
He didn't look good, that's my point. Receivers combined for 234 YAC including a screen pass Chase took 60 yards down the field that led to points. Jones has never had that many in a single game during his career.
Which was 56% of his yards. Burrows yards after the catch accounted for only 10% more of his yards. Not a major difference. Burrow gets no credit for getting the ball out and giving his guys a chance to make plays? The argument in favor of Jones the beginning of the year when the production wasn’t high was that he was completing a high percentage of his passes. Now that doesn’t matter for Burrow?
We’re past the excuse making part of the Jones evaluation. Again not saying he has to throw for 350 and 3 scores if the like looks bad but there should be an expectation he shows some of what he’s shown the last three weeks, even if it’s only a few drives.
What’s being said by some here isn’t that much different
Does this kind of performance catapult Jones into a higher level? You know, I hate the talk this time of year about where guys rank in the league. One, it does not matter. Two, save that chatter for the offseason where it holds at least some value. I do wonder if this game in Jones’ own head gives him the last bit of confidence to go out there and play like this week in, week out no matter the opponent. That is what the upper tier quarterbacks do. MIN does not have a good defense. They have solid pieces here and there, but they were bottom 5 in the NFL. But Jones is elevating to arguably the top dual threat in the league. He has 3 interceptions over his last 14 games. THREE. He can’t throw with the likes of Burrow and Mahomes, but they can’t move the way he does. The final component to Jones getting to his own ceiling is between his ears now that he has the right coaching staff. This is the kind of game that can awaken that monster. Next up, a rested defense that allowed the second-fewest yards in football.
Which was 56% of his yards. Burrows yards after the catch accounted for only 10% more of his yards. Not a major difference. Burrow gets no credit for getting the ball out and giving his guys a chance to make plays? The argument in favor of Jones the beginning of the year when the production wasn’t high was that he was completing a high percentage of his passes. Now that doesn’t matter for Burrow?
We’re past the excuse making part of the Jones evaluation. Again not saying he has to throw for 350 and 3 scores if the like looks bad but there should be an expectation he shows some of what he’s shown the last three weeks, even if it’s only a few drives.
Jones also rushed for 78 yards so it's more than 10% but I digress. He was sacked 9 times, I'm not sure what credit you want to assign to him getting the ball out fast. A few of those he stood no chance but there were others where he held the ball too long.
My greater point is that gearing up to decide whether or not Jones is the guy based on this upcoming game where his team is outmatched talent-wise is silly. Nobody would say Burrow played well if Tannehill just threw 2 interceptions instead of 3 and Tennessee won that game.
Nobody here said Jones isn’t the guy if he doesn’t play well Saturday. Just that they’d need to see what he does next year before determining he’s a top level QB.
Bengals WR Ja'Marr Chase said Joe Burrow read a Tennessee defensive signal to make the right read/adjustment on the throw to Chase that set up the game-winning FG.
I’m not going to keep arguing over a “what if the oline sucks” hypothetical excuse.
It’s possible for team to make it a Super Bowl without ever beating a really good defense in a playoff game. Where would the goalpost be then?
He is not my quarterback until he wins a Super Bowl?
What happens if DJ puts pedestrian numbers and even has not a good performance but the defense makes up for it and Giants win the Super Bowl?
I think “fans” like you will just say that it was only one good year and you not like him until he puts a couple great seasons together and possibly wins another Super Bowl.
It obvious you believe your team needs to have an all time great QB. You want a great QB but what defines that?
How would you actually ever know if you had one?
All of this is just so dumb. There is a lot of us that had a checklist of improvements that we wanted to see DJ make.
Are you saying before the season started that you would not be a fan of DJ unless he took the team to the playoffs and beat a good defensive opponent? That was on your list? LMAO give me a freakin break.
I can’t believe I have to share the fandom of this team with you. It’s actually a little offensive.
Bengals WR Ja'Marr Chase said Joe Burrow read a Tennessee defensive signal to make the right read/adjustment on the throw to Chase that set up the game-winning FG.
I’m not going to keep arguing over a “what if the oline sucks” hypothetical excuse.
Yes because the blitz didn't get home on those plays. If a team blitzes and doesn't get pressure I would expect a good QB to be able to complete passes. Link - ( New Window )
You know part of the reason the blitz didn’t get home on those plays was because Burrow made a play before it did?
Let me get this straight... You're alleging that their OL was so bad that he was sacked 9 times out of 13 times total he was pressured (none of which were his fault) but on all other passing plays Burrow was so incredible that he was able to get the ball out and find open receivers before he was pressured? Took him .01 seconds less to throw than his average over the course of the 2022 season. These things do not add up.
Really stuck it to the Giants the first game. Very interested to see how they compete on the fronts. Win this battle I expect Jones to have a big game.
You know part of the reason the blitz didn’t get home on those plays was because Burrow made a play before it did?
Let me get this straight... You're alleging that their OL was so bad that he was sacked 9 times out of 13 times total he was pressured (none of which were his fault) but on all other passing plays Burrow was so incredible that he was able to get the ball out and find open receivers before he was pressured? Took him .01 seconds less to throw than his average over the course of the 2022 season. These things do not add up.
You seem not be able to grasp the point that Burrow was 10-10 against the blitz and part of the reason he is responsible for. Burrow was good in that game. What you’re saying is akin to saying Jones was only good Sunday because the Vikings defense is bad. It’s nonsense.
I expect a more run heavy offense this week. The Eagles have the best pass D by Y/A, second fewest by Y/G. The run D is a little below average statistically. I think Barkley will get 25+ carries this week.
Daboll designed a pass heavy offense, attacking the Vikings weakness. Jones stepped up. If we win this week, I think Barkley has to be the #1 star. I'd be surprised to see Jones throw the ball 40+ times against PHI.
I expect a more run heavy offense this week. The Eagles have the best pass D by Y/A, second fewest by Y/G. The run D is a little below average statistically. I think Barkley will get 25+ carries this week.
Daboll designed a pass heavy offense, attacking the Vikings weakness. Jones stepped up. If we win this week, I think Barkley has to be the #1 star. I'd be surprised to see Jones throw the ball 40+ times against PHI.
Agreed, I think I may sprinkle some on Breida to score a TD. I could see some creative plays that get Jones in space too.
You know part of the reason the blitz didn’t get home on those plays was because Burrow made a play before it did?
Let me get this straight... You're alleging that their OL was so bad that he was sacked 9 times out of 13 times total he was pressured (none of which were his fault) but on all other passing plays Burrow was so incredible that he was able to get the ball out and find open receivers before he was pressured? Took him .01 seconds less to throw than his average over the course of the 2022 season. These things do not add up.
You seem not be able to grasp the point that Burrow was 10-10 against the blitz and part of the reason he is responsible for. Burrow was good in that game. What you’re saying is akin to saying Jones was only good Sunday because the Vikings defense is bad. It’s nonsense.
QBR of 33, negative EPA/play, PFF grade in the 70’s and the list goes on. Pick your favorite advanced metric and he graded out poorly in that game but sure, you know better.
ajr I’ve enjoyed our back and forth on Jones. Makes for good banter.
However - it does feel like you’re sort of making excuses for Burrow and saying he was somehow really good and then when Jones actually does play exceptional, you are coming up with stats to somehow make it seem like he wasn’t as great as he was. I was at that stadium and Jones was perfect. Not a single pass or single decision wasn’t the right one, on literally every down. It’s up there with the best games Burrow has played in his career.
To me that’s sort of the reason why these arguments never end and (possibly you) and some other just will never think Jones can be a top 5 QB. There’s always some weird thing to come up with as to why he wasn’t the best offensive player on the field, by far.
For that game. QBR is heavily skewed by turnovers. Jones has had many games this year that have put out similar advanced numbers, but have been called good.
Burrow was good and had 73 PFF grade despite not throwing a TD. Jones was outstanding and had an 80. You proved my point that Burrow was good that game.
ajr I’ve enjoyed our back and forth on Jones. Makes for good banter.
However - it does feel like you’re sort of making excuses for Burrow and saying he was somehow really good and then when Jones actually does play exceptional, you are coming up with stats to somehow make it seem like he wasn’t as great as he was. I was at that stadium and Jones was perfect. Not a single pass or single decision wasn’t the right one, on literally every down. It’s up there with the best games Burrow has played in his career.
To me that’s sort of the reason why these arguments never end and (possibly you) and some other just will never think Jones can be a top 5 QB. There’s always some weird thing to come up with as to why he wasn’t the best offensive player on the field, by far.
Where did I say Jones wasn’t exceptional? I’ve said the opposite. He was outstanding on Sunday. The most impressive game of his career. I’ve said that multiple times. I even said I don’t even need to see Jones play like Burrow did against the Titans to have a positive opinion if the oline plays like it did 12/11 vs Philly. Not sure where you’re getting something else from.
I expect a more run heavy offense this week. The Eagles have the best pass D by Y/A, second fewest by Y/G. The run D is a little below average statistically. I think Barkley will get 25+ carries this week.
Daboll designed a pass heavy offense, attacking the Vikings weakness. Jones stepped up. If we win this week, I think Barkley has to be the #1 star. I'd be surprised to see Jones throw the ball 40+ times against PHI.
I was thinking similarly. But I have to imagine Philly will take their chances with 8 beating them instead of 26. So, it could be tough sledding for SB running.
But I would use SB much, much more in the passing game. I would try to get him 10+ targets with check downs, drag routes, wheel routes, etc. Let's get him out in space and make those Philly LBs run.
Alright, again, I’m not saying Burrow didn’t have a good game. But when you always find ways to say that other QBs are always awesome when they aren’t, and always find ways to say that Jones wasn’t as good as he was, that’s called an agenda. Not saying you have one, but sooner or later the reality of Jones’ play will set in.
Nobody here said Jones isn’t the guy if he doesn’t play well Saturday. Just that they’d need to see what he does next year before determining he’s a top level QB.
I’m pretty sure that there’s only about 5 people left on this message board who are still going to wait until next year to determine how good Jones is, and you’re one of those 5.
Alright, again, I’m not saying Burrow didn’t have a good game. But when you always find ways to say that other QBs are always awesome when they aren’t, and always find ways to say that Jones wasn’t as good as he was, that’s called an agenda. Not saying you have one, but sooner or later the reality of Jones’ play will set in.
Where did I say Jones wasn’t as good as he was on Sunday? Or the Sunday before that? I even said he he repeats the little things he did on Sunday; he’ll be the best QB on the field regardless of the results.
Stats are great. But plenty of QBs in todays league would have shit their pants in that atmosphere on Sunday. Couldn’t hear anything for 3 hours straight and Jones acted like he was in a gym by himself. I have no doubt that Jones could care less if he’s playing at Philly or wherever. That’s a huge part of the evaluation as well.
How was Justin Herbert’s poise in the second half the other night? Shitty is what it was.
Nobody here said Jones isn’t the guy if he doesn’t play well Saturday. Just that they’d need to see what he does next year before determining he’s a top level QB.
I’m pretty sure that there’s only about 5 people left on this message board who are still going to wait until next year to determine how good Jones is, and you’re one of those 5.
Again, to quote you - “why does that opinion bother you so much?”. People aren’t going to have the same opinions as you. It doesn’t have to bother you. The only way to be a franchise QB is to win multiple big games. Some people want to see more than a 3 game stretch of top end play before crowning him a franchise QB, and that’s ok.
Corey Webster got a lot of scorn until he had multiple good games in the postseason.
Stats are great. But plenty of QBs in todays league would have shit their pants in that atmosphere on Sunday. Couldn’t hear anything for 3 hours straight and Jones acted like he was in a gym by himself. I have no doubt that Jones could care less if he’s playing at Philly or wherever. That’s a huge part of the evaluation as well.
How was Justin Herbert’s poise in the second half the other night? Shitty is what it was.
I’m not sure you’re actually reading my posts so I’ll post this one again.
Quote:
For me specifically, as I can’t speak for everyone else.
Make some of the same tough throws he made against Minnesota.
Put the team in a position to score 3 or more TDs
The actually stats are irrelevant to me Saturday, a turnover is fine too as long as it’s not a back breaker. Look the way he looked Sunday and keep the team competitive. Sunday was probably the first game I can say with confidence Jones did an elite job of manipulating the defense with his eyes. When you combine that with his legs and the effect his legs have on a defense, he’s at his best. If he can repeat those two things on Saturday he’s the best QB in Philly that day.
For that game. QBR is heavily skewed by turnovers. Jones has had many games this year that have put out similar advanced numbers, but have been called good.
Burrow was good and had 73 PFF grade despite not throwing a TD. Jones was outstanding and had an 80. You proved my point that Burrow was good that game.
Now do EPA.
So Jones’ PFF grade on the season is higher than Burrow’s in that one game but you need to see Jones play as well this week as Burrow did in that game even though according to PFF he’s done that all season. Now we’ve come full circle…
I’m pretty sure that there’s only about 5 people left on this message board who are still going to wait until next year to determine how good Jones is, and you’re one of those 5.
And what's wrong with that exactly? What's wrong with wanting to see more data? This isn't like Jones has strung together multiple great seasons like an Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Mahomes, etc.
Jones looks like he's turned the corner. At the same time, he could be on one of those QB heaters where you just get in a zone for a period of time. But then things level off and you have to prove you can get back into that groove.
People need to relax on Burrow being so much better than Jones. Yeah I said it. Right now they are playing pretty equal football when you consider what Jones is doing with his legs. Would be nice if Jones had Tee Higgins and Chase to catch everything in sight within a 10 foot radius.
RE: RE: PFF gave Burrow an adjusted completion of 85%
So Jones’ PFF grade on the season is higher than Burrow’s in that one game but you need to see Jones play as well this week as Burrow did in that game even though according to PFF he’s done that all season. Now we’ve come full circle…
Just curious - where are you getting your EPA numbers?
I guess that’s my question. People who are withholding ‘buying in’ seem to basically be saying that they’ll be full supporters of Jones once he shows himsef to be one of the best players in the game. Well, no shit! Really going out on a limb, fellas!
For me a guy who was weathered all the perseverance that’s come his way, is tough as nails, and fights his ass off for this team, at his talent level, whatever the ceiling, is enough for me.
What does ‘bought in’ even mean?
RE: RE: RE: PFF gave Burrow an adjusted completion of 85%
So Jones’ PFF grade on the season is higher than Burrow’s in that one game but you need to see Jones play as well this week as Burrow did in that game even though according to PFF he’s done that all season. Now we’ve come full circle…
Just curious - where are you getting your EPA numbers?
Philly will focus on stopping the run both he and Barkley. And they have the DBs to play man so it will be tough sledding.
That being said I still think he'll play well. I dont know about victory but he has shown me he can play with anyone and I expect the same thing on Sat. Its an amazing feeling to feel confidence in that!
RE: RE: RE: RE: PFF gave Burrow an adjusted completion of 85%
I guess that’s my question. People who are withholding ‘buying in’ seem to basically be saying that they’ll be full supporters of Jones once he shows himsef to be one of the best players in the game. Well, no shit! Really going out on a limb, fellas!
For me a guy who was weathered all the perseverance that’s come his way, is tough as nails, and fights his ass off for this team, at his talent level, whatever the ceiling, is enough for me.
What does ‘bought in’ even mean?
This!
It's not about having a different opinion or wanting to see improvement or consistency, it's the idea that he's not seen as a positive part of the future until...the next thing.
Philly will focus on stopping the run both he and Barkley. And they have the DBs to play man so it will be tough sledding.
That being said I still think he'll play well. I dont know about victory but he has shown me he can play with anyone and I expect the same thing on Sat. Its an amazing feeling to feel confidence in that!
Agree they will try to stop the run. I am hoping the improvement in the pass game will carry over. I think Philly lost a key guy on D as well.
There is a difference between there is greatness IN Daniel Jones and consistently being able to display that greatness.
Yet what I mean by this is Daniel Jones has simply until now not had a way to really show what he has because he never had the things in place that allow a QB to be great. From College to the first almoat 4 years in the NFL. He was never gifted talent around him. Yet you never saw this kid flinch, not once.
Thats what the Mara and DG saw in this kid. An inner greatness that they belived one day what become an outer one. This crescendo is terribly fitting because he has triumphed through countless advsrsity to arrive at this place. Its a tremendous story that has yet to be fully written.
close games all season due to Jones and never in spite of him. He had multiple 4th quarter game winning drives. He did it both through the air and with his legs. He did it with a revolving cast of skill players and along the o-line. He elevated a bunch of no-names at the WR position and those that were deemed unworthy. He doesn’t have to prove anything to me at this point, he removed any doubts I had about him a few weeks into the season. He’s done everything people said he couldn’t do. He’s not the best QB in the league, but I believe he’s capable of bringing home a trophy. Maybe not this season, but if he takes down the Eagles on Saturday, he’ll earn his spot in the hearts of the fans.
Just know He's your QB no matter what happens saturday night.
Just know He's your QB no matter what happens saturday night.
Correction...he'll be the Giants' QB.
Just know He's your QB no matter what happens saturday night.
If what we've seen from Jones over the past 6 weeks is his evolution into an elite qb, the Giants have a unique opportunity to wrestle control of this division for sometime between Jones and Daboll, regardless of Saturday night. Most of the elite qb talent currently resides in the AFC, and the NFC is up for grabs. If Jones can join the likes of Allen, Herbert, and Burrow, the Eagles reign will be short lived.
Not little. None.
Yes. Big performance in a big game against a really good defense. This is the last hurdle he has to clear. Sorry, but to me that's reasonable. This is something he hasn't done yet. This separates the Kirk Cousins and the Jared Goffs from the Josh Allens and Joe Burrows...this kind of game means that much.
Whether you were pro or anti, neither position was terribly unreasonable.
Weird thing to feel the need to justify.
Quote:
...your opinion carries very little weight.
Not little. None.
Correct. It weighs just as much as any BBI posters' opinions. You know, on a football message board where we express our pointless opinions.
Has any QB won a playoff game lead by a 5th rounder WR passing attack?
Whether you were pro or anti, neither position was terribly unreasonable.
Weird thing to feel the need to justify.
Cool man. I think this is the opposite of trying to save face. But that's a take, I guess. I'm rooting for DJ to continue what he's done recently. I would love to see it.
allstarjim is literally telling you what he needs to see.
I mean, since the comps matter so much, doing the same with less would suggest a superior performance...no?
Quote:
since he was drafted, was if you gave the guy weapons could he take us all the way. Well, we didn't give him much and look what he's done. That's enough for me, not sure what anyone else wants from the guy at this point. Took him some time to learn yet anew system, but he looks like he's arrived to me.
Has any QB won a playoff game lead by a 5th rounder WR passing attack?
Good thing to research, but the answer is probably yes.
At any rate, we all know it's how the players perform and what they become, not where they are drafted. Love what Hodgins has done. If there was a re-draft, he wouldn't go undrafted given his performance since he's been here.
Count me in the camp that he has earned a regular role here. I know some people disagree about how good he can be, but I love his game. There's a role and there's precedent for WRs with his profile (lack of deep speed) finding huge success.
And don't get me wrong, I know that there still leaves much to be desired in this passing attack, but he gives us some measure of stability at the position going into next year, keep adding.
+1,000
If he throws up a stinker, any rational fan would still be happy to have him as our QB.
I mean, since the comps matter so much, doing the same with less would suggest a superior performance...no?
No, because those guys have done it more than a few times. But it could mean you can see he can reserve a seat at the table with continued performance.
Nick, I doubt DJ reads BBI. We're not that important, bro.
Arguably the best team in the NFL, with the best pass rush, one of the best overall defenses, after they had a bye week, on the road in front of one of the most hostile crowds in the league, in the playoffs. Heck, does he want it to be in freezing rain and 30 mph winds too? Yeah, he hasn't set the bar high at all. Hell, that's a huge job for Mahomes with all the weapons he has.
Quote:
...if he does what Allen and Burrow has done, and he does it with what would be a far less talented WR crew, we can agree that he's better than they are?
I mean, since the comps matter so much, doing the same with less would suggest a superior performance...no?
No, because those guys have done it more than a few times. But it could mean you can see he can reserve a seat at the table with continued performance.
Quote:
not sure what anyone else wants from the guy at this point.
allstarjim is literally telling you what he needs to see.
Yeah, I get that mark, I should have been clearer. What I'm trying to say is, in my belief that benchmark is a little outrageous given what he has been given to work with and how many different systems he has been asked to learn. I started the season unsure even doubtful of Jones.
less weight than the fart of a cockroach.
Smart choice, made the season a joy to watch. BB56' the mea culpas are all coming or they will just disappear from the site.
Jones could exceed L Jackson MVP season in the future with real weapons because he is a better passer. His ceiling is that high.
Fun times on BBI
DJ already has had my respect. He has come a long way in his development, and it isn't easy to do on this team in this city.
The desire for a QB that can lead a team to the playoffs, and by his mere presence makes the team a Super Bowl contender going into any season week 1, is my greatest desire for this team. That doesn't mean he doesn't have my respect, though.
Quote:
In comment 15999205 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...if he does what Allen and Burrow has done, and he does it with what would be a far less talented WR crew, we can agree that he's better than they are?
I mean, since the comps matter so much, doing the same with less would suggest a superior performance...no?
No, because those guys have done it more than a few times. But it could mean you can see he can reserve a seat at the table with continued performance.
Have they?
Yes.
Before you are sold that he's one of the best QB's in the NFL or sold that he's a franchise QB? Not sure what else DJ needs to do for me at this point. He's proven that he can run this offense and he SHOULD improve.
Before you are sold that he's one of the best QB's in the NFL or sold that he's a franchise QB? Not sure what else DJ needs to do for me at this point. He's proven that he can run this offense and he SHOULD improve.
To me these things go hand-in-hand. Is it a problem I desire a QB that is thought of as one of the top 4 or 5 QBs in the league? One that gives us the feeling going into every season the way that Buffalo fans and Kansas City fans have the feeling they do going into a season? Isn't that what we all want?
I love Eli, but in my lifetime, we've never had that. I defend Eli all the time to my wife, a diehard Giants' fan as well, because he put two Lombardis in the trophy case, nothing can take that away. But a team that becomes a perennial playoff team in large part because of the excellence of the QB? I would love to see that in my lifetime.
Quote:
We know the Giants lack talent, specifically offensively and you need to see your QB carry your team to victory before you are sold?
Before you are sold that he's one of the best QB's in the NFL or sold that he's a franchise QB? Not sure what else DJ needs to do for me at this point. He's proven that he can run this offense and he SHOULD improve.
To me these things go hand-in-hand. Is it a problem I desire a QB that is thought of as one of the top 4 or 5 QBs in the league? One that gives us the feeling going into every season the way that Buffalo fans and Kansas City fans have the feeling they do going into a season? Isn't that what we all want?
I love Eli, but in my lifetime, we've never had that. I defend Eli all the time to my wife, a diehard Giants' fan as well, because he put two Lombardis in the trophy case, nothing can take that away. But a team that becomes a perennial playoff team in large part because of the excellence of the QB? I would love to see that in my lifetime.
It would take a Mahomes'ian effort for DJ to carry this team to victory. It's an unfair expectation from a guy that's just coming into his own. He's already shown that he has elite talent, now we just need him to continue to progress. This game isn't going to tell you anything, IMO.
You guys are the best!
Anyway, some of you are already building in excuses like you expect him to suck on Saturday night. Damn, where is your belief? If he is who you guys have been saying, at the least he's going to put this team in position to win.
Let's see that! Super stoked to see it on Saturday night!
I give the due credit where it's due.
If your criteria for throwing your full support behind a QB is that he performs like Mahomes or Burrow every week (as if these guys grow on trees), that's your choice. The rest of us will have fun with this.
Quote:
Mea Culpa is past due....
I give the due credit where it's due.
fair point always better late than never
If your criteria for throwing your full support behind a QB is that he performs like Mahomes or Burrow every week (as if these guys grow on trees), that's your choice. The rest of us will have fun with this.
Oh I'm enjoying this as much as you. And you're right, they don't grow on trees. How cool would it be if that's what DJ becomes, or if not, if the next guy does?
Mike, maybe sold is the wrong word, but my belief that he can be the QB that many of you believe he already is will grow exponentially.
I'm being sincere here, I want to see this, badly. I suspect most, if not all, of us in the DJ doubters club feel the same way.
It would take a Mahomes'ian effort for DJ to carry this team to victory. It's an unfair expectation from a guy that's just coming into his own. He's already shown that he has elite talent, now we just need him to continue to progress. This game isn't going to tell you anything, IMO.
A Mahomes'ian effort that includes good pass blocking up front. How quickly people forget that SB against Tampa. If the Eagles DL dominates the Giants OL like that, no QB would stand a chance.
Quote:
rests on the team winning one specific game, you're doing it wrong.
Mike, maybe sold is the wrong word, but my belief that he can be the QB that many of you believe he already is will grow exponentially.
I'm being sincere here, I want to see this, badly. I suspect most, if not all, of us in the DJ doubters club feel the same way.
Right now, they have Jones taking reps as a defensive back to help stop Brown and Smith.
If Jones can play lights out again, even if we don't win, I think there'll be more people sharing my assessment of top 5, then there will be of those still questioning if he's good enough.
This is, of course, true generally speaking. But doing it with this roster is a pretty tall challenge. As usual, and per the OP, BBI will put too much weight on the outcome of this one game. (not saying you are)
If Jones beats Philly at Phily after they've had a bye and were essentially the best team in football all year, then you'll be on board.
Give me a break man. Seriously. If that's your reasoning, and he actually does beat them, you'll find something else to be pissed about when he has a bad game and you'll be back to the "is he the guy?" nonsense yet again.
This. There were only a select few who saw DJ had great traits but maybe not enough of a support system like Mara hinted at. Now this year finally proved that he can maximize the talent around him in a good system.
The last couple of games and it's crescendo is because the talent around him is also now getting healthier, improving and playing well in the parameters of the new offense. Plus Hodgins has been a revelation and huge addition to the WR stable.
With that said they go into Philly still on the short end talent wise especially when comparing the receivers and the corners. Thats a big disadvantage in the passing game offensively and defensively.
If Daniel doesnt light up this team like he did Minny it doesn't suddenly mean he somehow sucks as a QB again.
Hes already done just about all you could ask of a legitimate franchise QB relative to the talent around him.
But sure, go back to not liking Daniel Jones if they lose.
Quote:
is the next step for Jones and the Giants as a whole team and organization to achieve.
This is, of course, true generally speaking. But doing it with this roster is a pretty tall challenge. As usual, and per the OP, BBI will put too much weight on the outcome of this one game. (not saying you are)
It's time to see where NYG is at, this is a measuring stick game and opportunity! If they're not ready, so be it, it will help light the path forward into the offseason.
Slayton is not an ideal guy to throw an endzone fade.
If Jones can play lights out again, even if we don't win, I think there'll be more people sharing my assessment of top 5, then there will be of those still questioning if he's good enough.
I think that's generous.
I know people will disagree, but I have a very clear top 3, that's Mahomes, Josh Allen, Joe Burrow. After that it's clear to me it's Herbert and Hurts, not necessarily in that order.
Then there's Rodgers (yes, still), Stafford, Lamar, and Dak.
DJ is in transition. He could be in this group, maybe in the next group with Jared Goff and Cousins and some others. Much like Trevor Lawrence. You're starting to see with Lawrence that he could be ascending and we don't know yet where he's going to land, that's kind of how I feel about DJ right now.
Good post. There were some off-schedule throws he made in that Vikings game that I thought...hey, this could be a sign of his continued evolution. That's something I had not yet given him a lot of credit for in his toolbox. So that was really encouraging to me.
Quote:
I didn't realize this game was Daniel Jones vs. the Philadelphia Eagles. I thought it was the Giants vs. the Eagles.
If your criteria for throwing your full support behind a QB is that he performs like Mahomes or Burrow every week (as if these guys grow on trees), that's your choice. The rest of us will have fun with this.
Oh I'm enjoying this as much as you. And you're right, they don't grow on trees. How cool would it be if that's what DJ becomes, or if not, if the next guy does?
How good would it be if DJ just already is a damn good QB and a guy we can win a Super Bowl with. The goal posts cant keep moving with our judgements on this kid. This eerily similar to the dichotomy on Eli before he won a Super Bowl ....even then there were still folks wh couldnt come around and say he was a great QB.
I mean, it's fair. You have to take the totality of the season, and a little less relevant, but still somewhat relevant, the career to date.
The offensive output was pedestrian this year overall. 3900 total yards and 22 TDs from DJ (total passing and rushing). These are ok numbers, but just ok. We've talked about the mitigating factors ad nauseum. I really do think next season, no matter what happens on Saturday, he's going to have a much more stable situation going into the year with. I'm confident there's going to be at least one additional legitimate playmaker, and the 2nd year in the system should give him a better start to the year, and obviously, as previously stated, I think having Hodgins, who he has clear chemistry with, having him for a full slate of games will be helpful to.
No matter what happens, even if I'm not a total believer, I think there's real positive things to feel good about going into next year.
Just hopeful we can have good injury luck next year and let the chips fall where they may.
This team is definitely on the rise. Hopefully we can keep Wink, because I believe they're going to add a piece or two to the defense that will elevate them to a top NFL unit.
It's very possible this defense is on the verge of being absolutely dominant.
Quote:
In comment 15999169 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...your opinion carries very little weight.
Not little. None.
Correct. It weighs just as much as any BBI posters' opinions. You know, on a football message board where we express our pointless opinions.
Quote:
In comment 15999172 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 15999169 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...your opinion carries very little weight.
Not little. None.
Correct. It weighs just as much as any BBI posters' opinions. You know, on a football message board where we express our pointless opinions.
So no respect for what he has done so far? He has to win this game to satify you? Come on man, get real!
You should've read a little farther, I definitely respect what DJ has done this year.
This made me chuckle. Thanks Amtoft.
Damn quotes...mean by 'carry'
I'll be celebrating a big Giants' win with everyone else?
Quote:
He hasn‘t shown you enough in the clutch this year? He has to do it against arguably the best team in the NFC, before you’re converted? Lawd.
Yes. Big performance in a big game against a really good defense. This is the last hurdle he has to clear. Sorry, but to me that's reasonable. This is something he hasn't done yet. This separates the Kirk Cousins and the Jared Goffs from the Josh Allens and Joe Burrows...this kind of game means that much.
don't know, but I'm guessing you meant to say "...from the Josh Allens + Diggs + Davis + Knox" and "Joe Burrows + Higgins + Chase + Boyd". I could be wrong though. Just a minor difference.
And a hall of fame career.
Then maybe, maybe I'll say he's pretty good.
DJ will have won me over, and that's my QB. Go out and beat these philthy birdies.
Will be elated to be proven wrong.
The Giants go into this game with a 9-win season, as the #6 seed, playing on the road against the #1 seed. Last I heard, the Eagles were favored by more than a touchdown. Ok, so you're saying that if Jones leads the Giants to a win, you'll be sold. On the other hand, if he throws three picks and stinks up the joint, you won't be. I guess that's fair.
But this could go a lot of different ways. Jones could play well and the Giants could still lose; the defense has been less than dominant. Barkley could run wild and Jones could be less central, and the Giants could win that way. The Giants could win with defensive and/or special teams scores, while Jones is just ok. The Eagles could overwhelm the Giants' O line, putting Jones under duress all night. The Giants could have Engram-style interceptions, where the pass hits the receiver in the hands; or drops (like Slayton's on Sunday); or fumbles on completed passes (like Slayton's against the Colts).
Remember that Eli was the best player on the Giants for their loss in Green Bay after the boat trip. Nobody put that loss in Eli.
My question is: What exactly does Jones have to do for you to be sold on him?
If the answer is: "Have another game like his last two," that really does seem unfair to me. The Eagles are a much better team than the Colts and a much better defense than the Vikings. If Jones had a game against them like he had against the Vikings, we'd be talking about whether he's become an elite QB, not about whether he should be the Giants' QB going forward. How good is good enough?
Jones is incredibly determined to excel. He has consistently identified and corrected the flaws in his own game. He's a grinder, he's smart and he's relentless. On the field, he's fearless. Does he still have flaws? Sure. But he may not have hit his ceiling yet. He's still improving.
Quote:
This Saturday night, let me put it right here...you will get the mea culpas from me.
DJ will have won me over, and that's my QB. Go out and beat these philthy birdies.
Will be elated to be proven wrong.
The Giants go into this game with a 9-win season, as the #6 seed, playing on the road against the #1 seed. Last I heard, the Eagles were favored by more than a touchdown. Ok, so you're saying that if Jones leads the Giants to a win, you'll be sold. On the other hand, if he throws three picks and stinks up the joint, you won't be. I guess that's fair.
But this could go a lot of different ways. Jones could play well and the Giants could still lose; the defense has been less than dominant. Barkley could run wild and Jones could be less central, and the Giants could win that way. The Giants could win with defensive and/or special teams scores, while Jones is just ok. The Eagles could overwhelm the Giants' O line, putting Jones under duress all night. The Giants could have Engram-style interceptions, where the pass hits the receiver in the hands; or drops (like Slayton's on Sunday); or fumbles on completed passes (like Slayton's against the Colts).
Remember that Eli was the best player on the Giants for their loss in Green Bay after the boat trip. Nobody put that loss in Eli.
My question is: What exactly does Jones have to do for you to be sold on him?
If the answer is: "Have another game like his last two," that really does seem unfair to me. The Eagles are a much better team than the Colts and a much better defense than the Vikings. If Jones had a game against them like he had against the Vikings, we'd be talking about whether he's become an elite QB, not about whether he should be the Giants' QB going forward. How good is good enough?
Jones is incredibly determined to excel. He has consistently identified and corrected the flaws in his own game. He's a grinder, he's smart and he's relentless. On the field, he's fearless. Does he still have flaws? Sure. But he may not have hit his ceiling yet. He's still improving.
Is it more him improving or the support system around him? Maybe he does this last year if all things were equal.
If Jones plays like he did last week, win or lose, I’ll be sold. If we see a game like Detroit or the first Eagles game and they lose badly it’ll still be incomplete with question marks going forward.
Quote:
This Saturday night, let me put it right here...you will get the mea culpas from me.
DJ will have won me over, and that's my QB. Go out and beat these philthy birdies.
Will be elated to be proven wrong.
The Giants go into this game with a 9-win season, as the #6 seed, playing on the road against the #1 seed. Last I heard, the Eagles were favored by more than a touchdown. Ok, so you're saying that if Jones leads the Giants to a win, you'll be sold. On the other hand, if he throws three picks and stinks up the joint, you won't be. I guess that's fair.
But this could go a lot of different ways. Jones could play well and the Giants could still lose; the defense has been less than dominant. Barkley could run wild and Jones could be less central, and the Giants could win that way. The Giants could win with defensive and/or special teams scores, while Jones is just ok. The Eagles could overwhelm the Giants' O line, putting Jones under duress all night. The Giants could have Engram-style interceptions, where the pass hits the receiver in the hands; or drops (like Slayton's on Sunday); or fumbles on completed passes (like Slayton's against the Colts).
Remember that Eli was the best player on the Giants for their loss in Green Bay after the boat trip. Nobody put that loss in Eli.
My question is: What exactly does Jones have to do for you to be sold on him?
If the answer is: "Have another game like his last two," that really does seem unfair to me. The Eagles are a much better team than the Colts and a much better defense than the Vikings. If Jones had a game against them like he had against the Vikings, we'd be talking about whether he's become an elite QB, not about whether he should be the Giants' QB going forward. How good is good enough?
Jones is incredibly determined to excel. He has consistently identified and corrected the flaws in his own game. He's a grinder, he's smart and he's relentless. On the field, he's fearless. Does he still have flaws? Sure. But he may not have hit his ceiling yet. He's still improving.
Perspective.
The recievers and the pass pro has let DJ down a whole lot more than him not picking them up.
If they give him something to work with he more times than not does something with it.
Neal gave up more pressures than any other OT last game. Slayton had two big drops, one could have cost them the game. At least they played better than the last Minny game though where I counted 6 drops and a Bellinger fumble.
Jones could have better intangibles than both Herbert and Allen.
Quote:
Jones has shown that he's getting very close, if not on the same level as Justin Herbert this year.
Jones could have better intangibles than both Herbert and Allen.
Gettleman when they drafted him said they really fell in love with the way he handles adversity. I think we can see that pretty clearly now.
Quote:
In comment 15999179 46and2Blue said:
Quote:
since he was drafted, was if you gave the guy weapons could he take us all the way. Well, we didn't give him much and look what he's done. That's enough for me, not sure what anyone else wants from the guy at this point. Took him some time to learn yet anew system, but he looks like he's arrived to me.
Has any QB won a playoff game lead by a 5th rounder WR passing attack?
Good thing to research, but the answer is probably yes.
At any rate, we all know it's how the players perform and what they become, not where they are drafted. Love what Hodgins has done. If there was a re-draft, he wouldn't go undrafted given his performance since he's been here.
Count me in the camp that he has earned a regular role here. I know some people disagree about how good he can be, but I love his game. There's a role and there's precedent for WRs with his profile (lack of deep speed) finding huge success.
And don't get me wrong, I know that there still leaves much to be desired in this passing attack, but he gives us some measure of stability at the position going into next year, keep adding.
Funny that you're good to go with Hodgins having a regular role, but Jones, you still need to see him win this game.
If Jones plays like he did last week, win or lose, I’ll be sold. If we see a game like Detroit or the first Eagles game and they lose badly it’ll still be incomplete with question marks going forward.
No, some of us are just rational Giants fans. Most of BBI, you included, thought this team would go 4-13 and Jones wouldn't even be the starter by mid season.
Instead, they win 9 games, Jones is playing like a top 5 QB in the sport, they win a playoff game in one of the hardest places to play, and the jury is still out for you.
No, some of us are just rational Giants fans. Most of BBI, you included, thought this team would go 4-13 and Jones wouldn't even be the starter by mid season.
Instead, they win 9 games, Jones is playing like a top 5 QB in the sport, they win a playoff game in one of the hardest places to play, and the jury is still out for you.
First of all, you’re far from rational. Secondly, I never said Jones wouldn’t be the starter by the end of the year. You don’t like lying, but yet here you are making shit up again. ASJ has been pretty level headed on Jones this year from what I’ve seen.
And yes, if we see a version of 2021 Jones out there on Sunday the jury will still be out for me. Why is that an issue and why does that make me irrational? Jones has improved this year and been outstanding three weeks in a row, but we also still need to see this for a full year next year. Lots of guys have career years then fizzle out. To quote you from the Lamar Jackson thread last week “why does this opinion offend people so much?”.
You really are the biggest hypocrite on this board, it’s astonishing that you don’t see it.
BW beacon lit. Incoming....
QBs have bad games. He can't play every fucking game like he did against the Colts and the Vikings. Nobody does that. He's playing the position essentially perfectly the last two starts. He's going to make a mistake.
lol
QBs have bad games. He can't play every fucking game like he did against the Colts and the Vikings. Nobody does that. He's playing the position essentially perfectly the last two starts. He's going to make a mistake.
yes QBs will have bad games. of course. But at some point you have to expect Jones to have a majority of very good or great games. Maybe a couple of bad games. And zero stinkers. When Jones goes a full season like that, I'll buy in.
QBs have bad games. He can't play every fucking game like he did against the Colts and the Vikings. Nobody does that. He's playing the position essentially perfectly the last two starts. He's going to make a mistake.
Did I say I’m out on Daniel Jones if he has a bad game Saturday? No I did not. I said it’s incomplete pending what we see from him next year. What is so offensive about that opinion?
If Daniel Jones doesn’t play well on Sunday I need to see what happens next year. That’s a reasonable opinion. I don’t even need to see 17 Vikings type games next year, but it’s going to need to be around 10 to say he’s a franchise QB for the next 10 years.
What are you going to do if Jones isn’t good next year since you want answers from everyone else?
If Jones is as good as you think, I am saying I will buy in when he has a majority of very good or great games. It will be inevitable. And I would give him a pass if he has a subpar game vs Philly. But next season he would need to continue to ball out as he has against the Vikings. You have faith he'll do it right? Then why do you keep bitching?
Then and only then.
But again, most fans here said that if Jones didn't throw 30 TDs, that means he's really not a good NFL QB. Clearly, there was enough evidence to completely shatter that theory without Jones playing the way he is, but I think his play lately put that stupid argument to rest.
So...not entirely sure what your definition of "isn't good" is...that definition to me is a QB who clearly just can't make throws and doesn't see the field. I would put Mitch Trubisky in this category of "not good." He's a NFL player and can be alright in spots, just not a good quarterback.
I think as long as Jones is the Giants QB for the next 5-6 years, barring injury he should play very well. If he reverts back to 2020 or some of 2021 Jones...well then, I guess it was a mirage.
What does "well" mean, though?
Then and only then.
I mean would he be worse than some of the guys we’ve had at MLB?
It s not relevant to this board anymore what his critics think.
They are welcomed to keep revisiting this topic, I don’t know why they want to, but the debate is over.
Daniel is the Giants quarterback, he s going to get paid like a franchise quarterback, and God willing I look forward to years of watching him play
Quote:
Jones has shown that he's getting very close, if not on the same level as Justin Herbert this year.
BW beacon lit. Incoming....
In the playoffs Jones was definitively better.
Objectively.
Herbert's offense only score 20 points more than Jones', but has more talent. Jones turned the ball over 8 times but Herbert turned it over 13 times.
Daniel Jones was a better quarterback in 2022 than Justin Herbert.
People will go Strawman and laugh at me for even comparing Jones and Herbert as passers.
I AM NOT.
I am saying nothing more than Daniel Jones was a better quarterback in 2022 than Justin Herbert.
There is much more to playing the position than passing statistics.
Passing: 5 TDs, 1 INT. 812 yards. Pace of 4,600 yards, 28 TDs, 6 INTs.
Rushing: 2 TDs, 203 yards rushing. Pace of 1,150 yards, 11 TDs.
The stats show an elite three game stretch. The eyes tell you he's been elite these three games. I do not think the three game stretch is what we've seen from Daniel Jones the rest of the season. He's been a different QB the past three games he's played, demonstrating a significantly higher ceiling than he's had all season.
We all can agree that Herbert has more talent. That being said, Jones played the position better this year, and certainly towards the end of the year/playoffs.
Passing: 5 TDs, 1 INT. 812 yards. Pace of 4,600 yards, 28 TDs, 6 INTs.
Rushing: 2 TDs, 203 yards rushing. Pace of 1,150 yards, 11 TDs.
The stats show an elite three game stretch. The eyes tell you he's been elite these three games. I do not think the three game stretch is what we've seen from Daniel Jones the rest of the season. He's been a different QB the past three games he's played, demonstrating a significantly higher ceiling than he's had all season.
He's been a different QB the past three games he's played, demonstrating a significantly higher ceiling than he's had all season.
Correct, Jones and the team have played a different brand (and reached another success level) of football in the three wins. Keep doing it, beat the Eagles, and the questions will continue to dwindle.
cheers!
But again, most fans here said that if Jones didn't throw 30 TDs, that means he's really not a good NFL QB. Clearly, there was enough evidence to completely shatter that theory without Jones playing the way he is, but I think his play lately put that stupid argument to rest.
So...not entirely sure what your definition of "isn't good" is...that definition to me is a QB who clearly just can't make throws and doesn't see the field. I would put Mitch Trubisky in this category of "not good." He's a NFL player and can be alright in spots, just not a good quarterback.
I think as long as Jones is the Giants QB for the next 5-6 years, barring injury he should play very well. If he reverts back to 2020 or some of 2021 Jones...well then, I guess it was a mirage.
So again I ask, what’s so offensive about what ASJ said and that if he doesn’t play well Saturday the grade is still incomplete? What’s wrong with wanting to see the last three weeks done somewhat consistently over a full season before coming to a conclusion?
Very promising first playoff game for our QB.
That is a fact.
Quote:
Why it’s offensive to expect Jones to play well now.
If we're expecting him to play well, that's a compliment.
What does "well" mean, though?
For me specifically, as I can’t speak for everyone else.
Make some of the same tough throws he made against Minnesota.
Put the team in a position to score 3 or more TDs
The actually stats are irrelevant to me Saturday, a turnover is fine too as long as it’s not a back breaker. Look the way he looked Sunday and keep the team competitive. Sunday was probably the first game I can say with confidence Jones did an elite job of manipulating the defense with his eyes. When you combine that with his legs and the effect his legs have on a defense, he’s at his best. If he can repeat those two things on Saturday he’s the best QB in Philly that day.
Sunday was him doing both those at his best. You want to be considered the best QB in the division heading into next year, do those things again - win or lose.
And if the OL shits the bed big time?
I specifically said he doesn’t have to win the game.
Quote:
Let's not forget the offensive output before the Vikes, Colts, and Vikes games. No one was thinking 27-30+ points was coming especially as the competition got stronger. Those are two below average defenses Jones/Giants excelled against. Now, do it against a top defense in the playoffs. A progression of ascension is more than fair.
And if the OL shits the bed big time?
Not every component of assessing Jones boils down to the OL, or the WR being a looming factor. There are aspects throughout a game where Jones is solely responsible for himself. A loss doesn't mean Jones is out or doesn't get an extension. It's a milestone game, look for milestone aspect to Jones' (and the Giants) performance, win or lose.
Quote:
I think it is very tough to simply state that a qb has to overcome a bad OL performance. That seems too simple for something that is more complicated.
I specifically said he doesn’t have to win the game.
I was not challenging that. You said
To me, saying a qb "can't look bad" because the OL was bad does not make a lot of sense.
What does 'battling through it' mean? The qb still has a good game even with a bad OL performance? I don't think that happens all that often.
Did you write off Eli after he lost his first playoff game? Then his 2nd?
Did Peyton suck because he lost his first 3 playoff games?
John Elway lost his first playoff game.
Aaron Rodgers lost his first playoff game.
Josh Allen lost his first playoff game.
Justin Herbert just lost his first playoff game. I could go on..
But yeah, let's judge Daniel Jones (after playing great and winning his first playoff game) on what he does in the final 8 against the #1 seed with possibly the leagues' best defense, including a really good DL (going against what is still a questionable OL), while playing with a far inferior roster.
It's anyone's right to let this game be the one that determines what they think of Jones. I'm just glad I don't think that way (that's the nicest way I could put it).
/sarcasm off
Did you write off Eli after he lost his first playoff game? Then his 2nd?
Did Peyton suck because he lost his first 3 playoff games?
John Elway lost his first playoff game.
Aaron Rodgers lost his first playoff game.
Josh Allen lost his first playoff game.
Justin Herbert just lost his first playoff game. I could go on..
But yeah, let's judge Daniel Jones (after playing great and winning his first playoff game) on what he does in the final 8 against the #1 seed with possibly the leagues' best defense, including a really good DL (going against what is still a questionable OL), while playing with a far inferior roster.
It's anyone's right to let this game be the one that determines what they think of Jones. I'm just glad I don't think that way (that's the nicest way I could put it).
This is even more true when the other team has significantly better pieces than the Giants in most their units across the board. That cant just be summarily ignored or dismissed. The opportunities for big plays are quite likely going to be much fewer and far between this game than last.
Will he make the plays consistently in those smaller windows even though they will come less often? If so what will that look like? With NYGs receivers and OL that might not look like 31 pts again. If it does than credit to Daboll/Kafka for another masterful plan to find weaknesses in a team with much less of them and DJ for taking full advantage of that game plan. However this will be much tougher sledding and thats a lot because of their superiority in many of the key areas the QB relies upon.
That game is a great example of survivorship bias. Burrow's team scored 19 points and it would've been 16 (in regulation at least) if not for a boneheaded late interception by Tannehill. His QBR was 33.4. That Titans defense was good, but not as good as Philly's defense is this year.
Gotcha, I agree with what Jon said. That's fair. You probably communicated your point fine, I have reading comprehension issues that pop up from time to time.
He didn't look good, that's my point. Receivers combined for 234 YAC including a screen pass Chase took 60 yards down the field that led to points. Jones has never had that many in a single game during his career.
/sarcasm off
That's basically where I am. I need a big, big sample size. ;)
Besides, anyone can throw for 300+ and run for 70+ against the swiss cheese of Minnesota. ;)
Link - ( New Window )
We’re past the excuse making part of the Jones evaluation. Again not saying he has to throw for 350 and 3 scores if the like looks bad but there should be an expectation he shows some of what he’s shown the last three weeks, even if it’s only a few drives.
We’re past the excuse making part of the Jones evaluation. Again not saying he has to throw for 350 and 3 scores if the like looks bad but there should be an expectation he shows some of what he’s shown the last three weeks, even if it’s only a few drives.
Jones also rushed for 78 yards so it's more than 10% but I digress. He was sacked 9 times, I'm not sure what credit you want to assign to him getting the ball out fast. A few of those he stood no chance but there were others where he held the ball too long.
My greater point is that gearing up to decide whether or not Jones is the guy based on this upcoming game where his team is outmatched talent-wise is silly. Nobody would say Burrow played well if Tannehill just threw 2 interceptions instead of 3 and Tennessee won that game.
I’m not going to keep arguing over a “what if the oline sucks” hypothetical excuse.
He is not my quarterback until he wins a Super Bowl?
What happens if DJ puts pedestrian numbers and even has not a good performance but the defense makes up for it and Giants win the Super Bowl?
I think “fans” like you will just say that it was only one good year and you not like him until he puts a couple great seasons together and possibly wins another Super Bowl.
It obvious you believe your team needs to have an all time great QB. You want a great QB but what defines that?
How would you actually ever know if you had one?
All of this is just so dumb. There is a lot of us that had a checklist of improvements that we wanted to see DJ make.
Are you saying before the season started that you would not be a fan of DJ unless he took the team to the playoffs and beat a good defensive opponent? That was on your list? LMAO give me a freakin break.
I can’t believe I have to share the fandom of this team with you. It’s actually a little offensive.
Quote:
Bengals WR Ja'Marr Chase said Joe Burrow read a Tennessee defensive signal to make the right read/adjustment on the throw to Chase that set up the game-winning FG.
I’m not going to keep arguing over a “what if the oline sucks” hypothetical excuse.
Yes because the blitz didn't get home on those plays. If a team blitzes and doesn't get pressure I would expect a good QB to be able to complete passes.
Link - ( New Window )
Click the link. 25/28 completions and 325/348 yards he was not under pressure.
Let me get this straight... You're alleging that their OL was so bad that he was sacked 9 times out of 13 times total he was pressured (none of which were his fault) but on all other passing plays Burrow was so incredible that he was able to get the ball out and find open receivers before he was pressured? Took him .01 seconds less to throw than his average over the course of the 2022 season. These things do not add up.
Quote:
You know part of the reason the blitz didn’t get home on those plays was because Burrow made a play before it did?
Let me get this straight... You're alleging that their OL was so bad that he was sacked 9 times out of 13 times total he was pressured (none of which were his fault) but on all other passing plays Burrow was so incredible that he was able to get the ball out and find open receivers before he was pressured? Took him .01 seconds less to throw than his average over the course of the 2022 season. These things do not add up.
You seem not be able to grasp the point that Burrow was 10-10 against the blitz and part of the reason he is responsible for. Burrow was good in that game. What you’re saying is akin to saying Jones was only good Sunday because the Vikings defense is bad. It’s nonsense.
Daboll designed a pass heavy offense, attacking the Vikings weakness. Jones stepped up. If we win this week, I think Barkley has to be the #1 star. I'd be surprised to see Jones throw the ball 40+ times against PHI.
Daboll designed a pass heavy offense, attacking the Vikings weakness. Jones stepped up. If we win this week, I think Barkley has to be the #1 star. I'd be surprised to see Jones throw the ball 40+ times against PHI.
Agreed, I think I may sprinkle some on Breida to score a TD. I could see some creative plays that get Jones in space too.
Quote:
In comment 15999859 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
You know part of the reason the blitz didn’t get home on those plays was because Burrow made a play before it did?
Let me get this straight... You're alleging that their OL was so bad that he was sacked 9 times out of 13 times total he was pressured (none of which were his fault) but on all other passing plays Burrow was so incredible that he was able to get the ball out and find open receivers before he was pressured? Took him .01 seconds less to throw than his average over the course of the 2022 season. These things do not add up.
You seem not be able to grasp the point that Burrow was 10-10 against the blitz and part of the reason he is responsible for. Burrow was good in that game. What you’re saying is akin to saying Jones was only good Sunday because the Vikings defense is bad. It’s nonsense.
QBR of 33, negative EPA/play, PFF grade in the 70’s and the list goes on. Pick your favorite advanced metric and he graded out poorly in that game but sure, you know better.
However - it does feel like you’re sort of making excuses for Burrow and saying he was somehow really good and then when Jones actually does play exceptional, you are coming up with stats to somehow make it seem like he wasn’t as great as he was. I was at that stadium and Jones was perfect. Not a single pass or single decision wasn’t the right one, on literally every down. It’s up there with the best games Burrow has played in his career.
To me that’s sort of the reason why these arguments never end and (possibly you) and some other just will never think Jones can be a top 5 QB. There’s always some weird thing to come up with as to why he wasn’t the best offensive player on the field, by far.
Burrow was good and had 73 PFF grade despite not throwing a TD. Jones was outstanding and had an 80. You proved my point that Burrow was good that game.
However - it does feel like you’re sort of making excuses for Burrow and saying he was somehow really good and then when Jones actually does play exceptional, you are coming up with stats to somehow make it seem like he wasn’t as great as he was. I was at that stadium and Jones was perfect. Not a single pass or single decision wasn’t the right one, on literally every down. It’s up there with the best games Burrow has played in his career.
To me that’s sort of the reason why these arguments never end and (possibly you) and some other just will never think Jones can be a top 5 QB. There’s always some weird thing to come up with as to why he wasn’t the best offensive player on the field, by far.
Where did I say Jones wasn’t exceptional? I’ve said the opposite. He was outstanding on Sunday. The most impressive game of his career. I’ve said that multiple times. I even said I don’t even need to see Jones play like Burrow did against the Titans to have a positive opinion if the oline plays like it did 12/11 vs Philly. Not sure where you’re getting something else from.
Daboll designed a pass heavy offense, attacking the Vikings weakness. Jones stepped up. If we win this week, I think Barkley has to be the #1 star. I'd be surprised to see Jones throw the ball 40+ times against PHI.
I was thinking similarly. But I have to imagine Philly will take their chances with 8 beating them instead of 26. So, it could be tough sledding for SB running.
But I would use SB much, much more in the passing game. I would try to get him 10+ targets with check downs, drag routes, wheel routes, etc. Let's get him out in space and make those Philly LBs run.
I’m pretty sure that there’s only about 5 people left on this message board who are still going to wait until next year to determine how good Jones is, and you’re one of those 5.
Where did I say Jones wasn’t as good as he was on Sunday? Or the Sunday before that? I even said he he repeats the little things he did on Sunday; he’ll be the best QB on the field regardless of the results.
How was Justin Herbert’s poise in the second half the other night? Shitty is what it was.
Quote:
Nobody here said Jones isn’t the guy if he doesn’t play well Saturday. Just that they’d need to see what he does next year before determining he’s a top level QB.
I’m pretty sure that there’s only about 5 people left on this message board who are still going to wait until next year to determine how good Jones is, and you’re one of those 5.
Again, to quote you - “why does that opinion bother you so much?”. People aren’t going to have the same opinions as you. It doesn’t have to bother you. The only way to be a franchise QB is to win multiple big games. Some people want to see more than a 3 game stretch of top end play before crowning him a franchise QB, and that’s ok.
Corey Webster got a lot of scorn until he had multiple good games in the postseason.
How was Justin Herbert’s poise in the second half the other night? Shitty is what it was.
I’m not sure you’re actually reading my posts so I’ll post this one again.
Make some of the same tough throws he made against Minnesota.
Put the team in a position to score 3 or more TDs
The actually stats are irrelevant to me Saturday, a turnover is fine too as long as it’s not a back breaker. Look the way he looked Sunday and keep the team competitive. Sunday was probably the first game I can say with confidence Jones did an elite job of manipulating the defense with his eyes. When you combine that with his legs and the effect his legs have on a defense, he’s at his best. If he can repeat those two things on Saturday he’s the best QB in Philly that day.
Burrow was good and had 73 PFF grade despite not throwing a TD. Jones was outstanding and had an 80. You proved my point that Burrow was good that game.
Now do EPA.
So Jones’ PFF grade on the season is higher than Burrow’s in that one game but you need to see Jones play as well this week as Burrow did in that game even though according to PFF he’s done that all season. Now we’ve come full circle…
I’m pretty sure that there’s only about 5 people left on this message board who are still going to wait until next year to determine how good Jones is, and you’re one of those 5.
And what's wrong with that exactly? What's wrong with wanting to see more data? This isn't like Jones has strung together multiple great seasons like an Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Mahomes, etc.
Jones looks like he's turned the corner. At the same time, he could be on one of those QB heaters where you just get in a zone for a period of time. But then things level off and you have to prove you can get back into that groove.
But he also can’t just shit the bed and blame it all on the oline.
Now do EPA.
So Jones’ PFF grade on the season is higher than Burrow’s in that one game but you need to see Jones play as well this week as Burrow did in that game even though according to PFF he’s done that all season. Now we’ve come full circle…
Just curious - where are you getting your EPA numbers?
I guess that’s my question. People who are withholding ‘buying in’ seem to basically be saying that they’ll be full supporters of Jones once he shows himsef to be one of the best players in the game. Well, no shit! Really going out on a limb, fellas!
For me a guy who was weathered all the perseverance that’s come his way, is tough as nails, and fights his ass off for this team, at his talent level, whatever the ceiling, is enough for me.
What does ‘bought in’ even mean?
Quote:
Now do EPA.
So Jones’ PFF grade on the season is higher than Burrow’s in that one game but you need to see Jones play as well this week as Burrow did in that game even though according to PFF he’s done that all season. Now we’ve come full circle…
Just curious - where are you getting your EPA numbers?
I use this site
Link - ( New Window )
That being said I still think he'll play well. I dont know about victory but he has shown me he can play with anyone and I expect the same thing on Sat. Its an amazing feeling to feel confidence in that!
Just curious - where are you getting your EPA numbers?
I use this site Link - ( New Window )
Gracias.
Really interesting to see how far Jones goes.
Leading the team to a win in his first one is really a big accomplishment.
Philly be a great test.
I guess that’s my question. People who are withholding ‘buying in’ seem to basically be saying that they’ll be full supporters of Jones once he shows himsef to be one of the best players in the game. Well, no shit! Really going out on a limb, fellas!
For me a guy who was weathered all the perseverance that’s come his way, is tough as nails, and fights his ass off for this team, at his talent level, whatever the ceiling, is enough for me.
What does ‘bought in’ even mean?
It's not about having a different opinion or wanting to see improvement or consistency, it's the idea that he's not seen as a positive part of the future until...the next thing.
That being said I still think he'll play well. I dont know about victory but he has shown me he can play with anyone and I expect the same thing on Sat. Its an amazing feeling to feel confidence in that!
Agree they will try to stop the run. I am hoping the improvement in the pass game will carry over. I think Philly lost a key guy on D as well.
Yet what I mean by this is Daniel Jones has simply until now not had a way to really show what he has because he never had the things in place that allow a QB to be great. From College to the first almoat 4 years in the NFL. He was never gifted talent around him. Yet you never saw this kid flinch, not once.
Thats what the Mara and DG saw in this kid. An inner greatness that they belived one day what become an outer one. This crescendo is terribly fitting because he has triumphed through countless advsrsity to arrive at this place. Its a tremendous story that has yet to be fully written.
Quote:
In comment 15999326 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Jones has shown that he's getting very close, if not on the same level as Justin Herbert this year.
BW beacon lit. Incoming....
Big picture, Jones was objectively better than Herbert this year. His team has advanced farther in the playoffs.
In the playoffs Jones was definitively better.
Objectively.
Herbert's offense only score 20 points more than Jones', but has more talent. Jones turned the ball over 8 times but Herbert turned it over 13 times.
Daniel Jones was a better quarterback in 2022 than Justin Herbert.
People will go Strawman and laugh at me for even comparing Jones and Herbert as passers.
I AM NOT.
I am saying nothing more than Daniel Jones was a better quarterback in 2022 than Justin Herbert.
There is much more to playing the position than passing statistics.
Don’t apologize for a valid opinion. Jones was a better quarterback this season